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On the moderation of Elfling

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  • Peter
    The below post was posted to Elfling yesterday but was deleted by list owner David Salo. Just for the record it should appear here instead. I hadn t made a
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 10, 2008
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      The below post was posted to Elfling yesterday but was deleted by list
      owner David Salo. Just for the record it should appear here instead. I
      hadn't made a copy of it, but luckily I found it via the Google cache.
      (Personal note: Next time, remember to save a copy of critical Elfling
      posts.)

      Re: "Fourth-age Quenya"

      --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K. Fauskanger"
      <helge.fauskanger@...> wrote:

      > Of course, much of this monotonous mockery and unimaginative
      ridicule originates from just two or three persons, where one in
      particular seems to regard himself as the foremost guardian of Serious
      Scholarly Tolkien-linguistics (as opposed to the non-serious hordes
      who spend all their time trying to figure out how to say "I am cheese"
      in Elvish...that would be us here on Elfling, of course).
      >
      > These ridiculers are generally easy to ignore (indeed that is what I
      do nearly all of the time), since all informed observers will know
      that this is to a very large extent a question of differing
      personalities and coliding philosophies (e.g., should a
      Tolkien-linguist try to address what most people actually want to
      know, or should he dismiss most requests as being below his scholarly
      dignity and ascend his ivory tower to stay up there, being no more
      willing to come down than Saruman was?)

      ---

      It is incomprehensible to me why the above passages are allowed to be
      posted to Elfling a few days after the list owner has declared "that
      direct insults are forbidden, and sarcastic asides that question other
      members' intelligence, sanity,competence, ethics, or good-will are
      possible grounds for returning a message". Of course the person who
      the above post is directed against (Carl F. Hostetter), is not a list
      member because he was banned from Elfling, but does that really
      justify this kind of ridicule and distortion of his opinions?

      Alas, those of us who has followed these forums on Tolkien's languages
      for some time know that this is not news, but I am still deeply
      offended by the sarcasm and false accusations against a fellow Tolkien
      scholar.

      Those of you who a new to this discussion, I strongly suggest to read
      what Carl F. Hostetter has ACTUALLY written about Tolkien scholarship
      - find it in the Elfling archives, on the mailing-lists Elfling-d and
      Lambengolmor and on the website of the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
      (E.L.F.)

      You will find that if there is one man we should applaud next to
      Christopher Tolkien for giving us Middle-earth in its own words it is
      the very person who is ritually ridiculed by a few Elfling members.
      Carl F. Hostetter. [NB: This is actually an unfair statement about the
      excellent group effort of the whole Editorial Team - substitute
      "Editorial Team" for "Carl F. Hostetter". -Peter.]

      much too hasty,
      Peter Edelberg
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      Thanks for posting this here, Peter, and for your _very_ kind words.* I debated commenting on Salo and Fauskanger s latest distortions, but really, what could
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 10, 2008
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        Thanks for posting this here, Peter, and for your _very_ kind words.*

        I debated commenting on Salo and Fauskanger's latest distortions, but
        really, what could anyone else say that would more eloquently and
        forcefully illustrate their intellectual and ethical bankruptcy than
        their own words and actions? On the one hand the blatant hypocrisy
        that you note, demonstrated further by the fact of Salo's
        _specifically approving_ Fauskanger's umpteenth desperate dishonest
        diatribe to the list (just check the full headers of Helge's message);
        and on the other hand Salo's petty, self-serving cowardice in actually
        _deleting_ your dissenting view.

        Carl

        * And especially for the needed modification at the end! I didn't
        start the E.L.F., I didn't launch _VT_, I don't edit _Parma_, and I'm
        not the chief editor of Tolkien's linguistic papers; I just do my
        part. Mostly, I'm just the one tenacious/stupid enough to act as a
        human target for the team, and for the fullness and reality of
        Tolkien's linguistic inventions.
      • William Cloud Hicklin
        I m very sorry, Peter. The running of the Elvish Linguistics list as David and Helge s personal sandbox is an amazing display of petulant childishness, which
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 10, 2008
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          I'm very sorry, Peter. The running of the "Elvish
          Linguistics" list as David and Helge's personal
          sandbox is an amazing display of petulant
          childishness, which would be laughable if it
          weren't also so contemptibly harmful to innocent
          persons. David, Helge, and Lisa "Star" McBrierty
          have conceived a slavering vendetta against Carl
          and the ELF that extends to banning persons known
          to be friendly with them, like me, or wo even
          object to the routine slandering of them, like you.

          I suggest you go to Lambengolmor instead, where
          *real* Elvish is discussed, not pop-movie
          synthetics.

          --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com,
          "Peter" <pedelberg@...> wrote:
          >
          > The below post was posted to Elfling yesterday
          but was deleted by list
          > owner David Salo. Just for the record it should
          appear here instead. I
          > hadn't made a copy of it, but luckily I found it
          via the Google cache.
          > (Personal note: Next time, remember to save a
          copy of critical Elfling
          > posts.)
          >
          > Re: "Fourth-age Quenya"
          >
          > --- In elfling@yahoogroups.com, "Helge K.
          Fauskanger"
          > <helge.fauskanger@> wrote:
          >
          > > Of course, much of this monotonous mockery and
          unimaginative
          > ridicule originates from just two or three
          persons, where one in
          > particular seems to regard himself as the
          foremost guardian of Serious
          > Scholarly Tolkien-linguistics (as opposed to the
          non-serious hordes
          > who spend all their time trying to figure out
          how to say "I am cheese"
          > in Elvish...that would be us here on Elfling, of
          course).
          > >
          > > These ridiculers are generally easy to ignore
          (indeed that is what I
          > do nearly all of the time), since all informed
          observers will know
          > that this is to a very large extent a question
          of differing
          > personalities and coliding philosophies (e.g.,
          should a
          > Tolkien-linguist try to address what most people
          actually want to
          > know, or should he dismiss most requests as
          being below his scholarly
          > dignity and ascend his ivory tower to stay up
          there, being no more
          > willing to come down than Saruman was?)
          >
          > ---
          >
          > It is incomprehensible to me why the above
          passages are allowed to be
          > posted to Elfling a few days after the list
          owner has declared "that
          > direct insults are forbidden, and sarcastic
          asides that question other
          > members' intelligence, sanity,competence,
          ethics, or good-will are
          > possible grounds for returning a message". Of
          course the person who
          > the above post is directed against (Carl F.
          Hostetter), is not a list
          > member because he was banned from Elfling, but
          does that really
          > justify this kind of ridicule and distortion of
          his opinions?
          >
          > Alas, those of us who has followed these forums
          on Tolkien's languages
          > for some time know that this is not news, but I
          am still deeply
          > offended by the sarcasm and false accusations
          against a fellow Tolkien
          > scholar.
          >
          > Those of you who a new to this discussion, I
          strongly suggest to read
          > what Carl F. Hostetter has ACTUALLY written
          about Tolkien scholarship
          > - find it in the Elfling archives, on the
          mailing-lists Elfling-d and
          > Lambengolmor and on the website of the Elvish
          Linguistic Fellowship
          > (E.L.F.)
          >
          > You will find that if there is one man we should
          applaud next to
          > Christopher Tolkien for giving us Middle-earth
          in its own words it is
          > the very person who is ritually ridiculed by a
          few Elfling members.
          > Carl F. Hostetter. [NB: This is actually an
          unfair statement about the
          > excellent group effort of the whole Editorial
          Team - substitute
          > "Editorial Team" for "Carl F. Hostetter". -
          Peter.]
          >
          > much too hasty,
          > Peter Edelberg
          >
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