Re: Omentielva Minya
- In Elfling message 25104
(<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/25104>), Helge writes
at characteristic length, and with characteristic obtuseness, a
characteristically sarcastic, special-pleading-ridden, and revisionist
re-interpretation of his dripping, contemptuous response to Bill
Welden's announcement of this conference. Kai MacTane has already put
the lie to Helge's posturing, and his astonishing contempt for his
readers (does Helge really think that _anyone_ is so stupid as to
accept his revisionism?), in Elfing message 25107
(<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/25107>), so I won't
rehash that; but I would like to comment on a few other aspects.
> Patrick Wynne wrote:So now we can add "patronizing" to Helge's list of rhetorical
>> It is shameful enough that Helge can only meet Bill Welden's hard
>> work and good intentions with sarcasm and disdain;
> Pat, Pat, please listen to the expert opinion of the world's leading
> they may seem to slip into the following mindset before they have evenIndeed, history is in this case an uncannily reliable guide. Oh, and
> read a single word: "This is going to be FULL of contempt, sarcasm,
> disdain, depreciation, aggression and negative attitudes!"
look who's talking!
> I had to remark that "any" aspect may be too wide a scale of topics.Helge seems to be unaware that academic conferences have been held for
> If, say, 20 people simply pick their Favorite Technicality in any
> Tolkien-language and develop a paper on that, it seems inevitable that
> we would end up with a
> quite disjointed conference. I must maintain that the Internet lists
> are probably the best forums for discussing technicalities,
centuries, quite successfully, without Helge's input; and that they are
_still_ occurring, despite the superiority of Internet mailing lists
that Helge claims (which claim I find utterly laughable, especially if
Helge has Elfling in mind, the chief advantages of which _to him_ seem
to be that it encourages participation by people who turn only to
Helge's writings as source and proof, and gives him free rein to be
just as insulting, long-winded, and obtuse as he likes, while
suppressing the response of other scholars to his claims and
representations). A comparison of the contents of the past year of the
Lambengolmor list with the past year of Elfling will show just how far
short of the mark that Helge pretends to aim for the latter has fallen;
but a comparison of Lambengolmor with, say, _Vinyar Tengwar_ or _Parma_
will show just how inferior mailing lists are, or at any rate have
historically been, to the presentation of substantial, comprehensive
analysis and even synthesis. Review of pretty much any conference
proceedings will show that they are much closer in form and value to
the aforementioned journals than to any mailing list.
> since we can here have a real continuous debate, people checking theBWAH-HAH-HAH-HA HA HA HAAAAH!!!! <wiping tears from eyes>
> primary sources
> I don't think much actual _research_could take place during such aCertainly more research could be done in a gathering of people together
in one place, than can via exchange of public posts. In fact, precisely
_no_ research has _ever_ "taken place" on Elfling; only (and very
rarely) the _presentation_ of the _results_ of research (most often
extending only to Helge's web pages, but that is research of a sort).
> So what SHOULD we talk about at such a conference?That is for the conference organizers, and paper reviewers, to decide,
not you. You of course are free to organize your own conference, and
then can select topics as _you_ see fit.
> Can we properly speak of a continuous evolution from 1915 to 1973, orThis is a perfect example of the sort of straw-man, _reductio ad
> are we rather dealing with sharply defined conceptual phases? After
> all, the genitive ending _-n_ does not evolve into _-o_ via some
> intermediate stage
absurdum_ "argument" that Helge strongly favors and frequently employs.
_OF COURSE_ an atomic feature does not "evolve via some intermediate
stage" into another form; _any_ change in an atomic feature must
_necessarily_ represent a _distinct_ development. But we are not
talking about _individual_ features; we are talking about _systems_ of
features, and their internal and comparative consistency (or lack
thereof). It was _never_ the case, from the earliest beginnings to the
end of the processes that are Quenya and Sindarin, that Tolkien
_completely_ discarded all prior systems and details, and started anew
from scratch. The Quenya(s) of the 1950s is _far_ more similar to Qenya
of 1915 than either of them are to any other language Tolkien invented;
and the continuity of the whole, of lexicon, phonology, grammar,
morphology, etc., is overwhelmingly more maintained than disrupted.
> Why travel to Stockholm simply to spend a few days discussing exactlyYou're right, Helge; by all means, do _not_ waste your time. I'm sure
> the same things we are discussing on the net all the time?
your non-participation will be appreciated by all.
> one can't just _decide_ beforehand that people are going to have aThat is certainly correct, if it is possible that _you_ might attend.
> good time.
As Bill said: _you_ are the only cloud on the horizon.
> We have managed to avoid major flame wars lately,Due solely to biased moderation, as _evidenced_ by, and in _despite_
of, your constant provocation and snarking.
> but the divisions and conflicts are very much real.Indeed: there is reality, and then there is Helge, and never the twain
> the only thing we can do is to keep the conflicts latent rather thanWhich can only happen if you are forced by _unbiased_ moderation to
stop spreading your venom and provocations.
> this can hardly be a great Feast of Reunion where everybody magicallyI agree that that will not happen if _you_ are in the room.
> turn into buddies once they are in the same room. That is simply not
> going to happen,
> and if the organizers fully accept that it is not going to happen andThe best and only way to ensure against this outcome is to ban you from
> deal with this fact, they will greatly improve the chances that the
> conference they have worked so hard to arrange won't end in disaster.
attending. But since Bill and Anders don't believe in censorship --
unlike you and David Salo and Lisa Star, -- even of those who employ
and/or hide behind the protection of censorship to spread their venom
unchallenged, I don't see that happening.
Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org
ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
Ars longa, vita brevis.
The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
"I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."