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Re: Moderatorial bias/hypocrisy/inconsistency on Elfling

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  • elimloth
    ... [...] Yes, he tends to go for those well honed jabs at emotionally sensitive areas. It is a trait I have asked him (and others) to elide from postings to
    Message 1 of 5 , May 28, 2003
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      --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
      wrote in part:

      > Helge predictably shifts from attacking the upcoming conference,
      > "_Omentielva Minya_", and its organizers, to renewed attacks on
      > Christopher Tolkien and myself and my colleagues. He begins by
      > comparing Tolkien's son and literary heir to a mere (and somewhat
      > deranged) Steward of Gondor, Denethor, with the implication that
      > Christopher has self-interestedly _failed_ in his fiduciary duties
      [...]

      Yes, he tends to go for those well honed jabs at emotionally
      sensitive areas. It is a trait I have asked him (and others) to
      elide from postings to elfling.

      > I wonder whether this moderator would pass a similar instance of
      > "literary deja vu" that I could offer in response:
      >
      > "How this ill will grew and festered in the years that followed is
      the
      > main matter of the first part of _The Silmarillion_: the Darkening
      of
      > Valinor. [...]
      >
      > Or even better, how about:
      >
      > "Melkor repudiated all _axani_ ['laws, commandments']. He would
      also
      > abolish (for himself) all _u'nati_ ['impossibilities'] if he
      could. [...]

      I would pass this through and be disappointed in the tit-for-tat
      response. I would send you a note asking you to tone down the post
      because though innocuous to most, it too it a well aimed provocative
      jab.

      > The moderator will respond that Helge is not making a personal
      attack,
      > but only asking questions. I wonder, then, whether I would be
      permitted
      > on Elfing to ask the following "questions" in kind:
      >
      > Does Helge really want to know why _Parma_12 has not been
      reprinted? Or
      > is his "concern" a "political" issue? Does he in fact enjoy
      responding
      > to every post by Bill with sarcasm, contempt, and innuendo? Why on
      > earth would that be? *** Or maybe he's just a bitter, friendless,
      jealous,
      > egomaniacal man who must tear down others to make himself feel
      good? ***

      This moderator would not let that one through because of the
      unnecessary personal attack contained within. Carl, the only way to
      normalize relations if is all parties back down. Like kind responses
      continue or escalate the hostile feelings.

      Earlier you asked several modeeration questions that deserve an
      answer. Kai answered some of them and I will add that in general the
      level of rejected posts in elfling is very low, around 3%. Sometimes
      that number rises to 50% as happened earlier this year when
      literally every other post to elfling was someone asking for an
      elfish (sic) translation for a tattoo. The number of "elvish Love
      Ring" requests was nearly countless (well, 200+ in one month). The
      basis of the usual rejections reflect the policies stated in
      elfling's welcome page. It is only a handful of posts that fall into
      the personal attack category,and it is the case that the line I have
      to draw (and I am fairly certain Kai does this too) WRT personal
      attacks is fuzzy because it is difficult to determine a person's
      personal offense threshold. If I let a post through that approaches
      that line, I usually send a note back to the originator to consider
      toning down future postings. The point is to maintain peace in the
      commons.

      Elimloth
    • Kai MacTane
      ... That s a fair summary of my stance, as well. ... I d let it through if it stopped with the first two questions: Does Helge really want to know why
      Message 2 of 5 , May 28, 2003
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        At 5/28/03 11:26 AM , elimloth wrote:

        > > I wonder whether this moderator would pass a similar instance of
        > > "literary deja vu" that I could offer in response:
        > >
        > > [...]
        >
        >I would pass this through and be disappointed in the tit-for-tat
        >response.

        That's a fair summary of my stance, as well.

        > > The moderator will respond that Helge is not making a personal
        >attack,
        > > but only asking questions. I wonder, then, whether I would be
        >permitted
        > > on Elfing to ask the following "questions" in kind:
        > >
        > > Does Helge really want to know why _Parma_12 has not been
        >reprinted? Or
        > > is his "concern" a "political" issue? Does he in fact enjoy
        >responding
        > > to every post by Bill with sarcasm, contempt, and innuendo? Why on
        > > earth would that be? *** Or maybe he's just a bitter, friendless,
        >jealous,
        > > egomaniacal man who must tear down others to make himself feel
        >good? ***
        >
        >This moderator would not let that one through because of the
        >unnecessary personal attack contained within.

        I'd let it through if it stopped with the first two questions: "Does Helge
        really want to know why _Parma_12 has not been reprinted? Or is his
        'concern' a 'political' issue?" After that, though, it *does* get into
        personal attack.

        I considered Helge's "Why Not Reprint?" post to be borderline -- just
        barely acceptable. And it doesn't accuse anyone of "enjoying... sarcasm,
        contempt, and innuendo", or of being "bitter, friendless, jealous, [and]
        egomaniacal."

        >Carl, the only way to normalize relations if is all parties back down.
        >Like kind responses continue or escalate the hostile feelings.

        And it gets particularly crazy when the responses are on two different
        lists! <g>

        --Kai MacTane
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        "Death and money make their point once more,
        In the shape of philosophical assassins..."
        --Shriekback,
        "Gunning for the
        Buddha"
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... But Helge clearly hasn t. And yet, contrary to the stated policy (under which one distorted application of which I was banned) which David Salo himself
        Message 3 of 5 , May 28, 2003
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          On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 02:26 PM, elimloth wrote:

          > Yes, he tends to go for those well honed jabs at emotionally sensitive
          > areas. It is a trait I have asked him (and others) to elide from
          > postings to elfling.

          But Helge clearly hasn't. And yet, contrary to the stated policy (under
          which one distorted application of which I was banned) which David Salo
          himself drafted, including:

          "Obvious ... hate mail will cause the poster to be summarily removed
          from Elfling"

          and

          "a person who continues to violate list guidelines after having been
          warned will be assumed to be acting intentionally and maliciously, and
          will be immediately banned"

          and despite your repeated requests, Helge is _still_ allowed to post
          his "jabs". Why?

          > I would pass this through and be disappointed in the tit-for-tat
          > response. I would send you a note asking you to tone down the post
          > because though innocuous to most, it too it a well aimed provocative
          > jab.

          Did you ask Helge to tone down his posts? You say you did (see above);
          and yet he remains on the list (see above).

          > This moderator would not let that one through because of the
          > unnecessary personal attack contained within.

          And that is exactly what I would expect you to do, in accordance with
          the list's guidelines; that is _precisely_ my point. For if you apply
          those guidelines only to the one party, while allowing the other (who
          is in fact uniformly the _instigator_ of the personal insults) to
          repeatedly post attacks and insulting innuendo, you are hardly
          maintaining peace, or following the lists guidelines.

          > Carl, the only way to normalize relations if is all parties back down.
          > Like kind responses continue or escalate the hostile feelings.

          You are preaching to the choir. _I_ know this; it is for _precisely_
          the reason that I decry the (at best) inconsistent or (at worst) biased
          and hypocritical list moderation that allows Helge to continue to post
          his personal attacks.

          You can't tell me that you don't see an implication that I and my
          colleagues hope to increase the collectible value of _Parma_ 12 is a
          _personal attack_!

          History has shown that Helge will _not_ suddenly become polite; he must
          therefore be _strictly_ moderated, and held _to the letter_ of the
          moderation guidelines); and if he continues to abuse those guideline,
          he should, as the policy David Salo wrote promises, be banned (indeed,
          he should long ago have been banned, if David really believed his own
          words).

          _Why is Helge being held to a different standard from the rest of us_?
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... Well whose fault is _that_? ;)
          Message 4 of 5 , May 28, 2003
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            On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 03:20 PM, Kai MacTane wrote:

            > And it gets particularly crazy when the responses are on two different
            > lists! <g>

            Well whose fault is _that_? ;)
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