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Re: [elfling-d] Re: Moderatorial bias/hypocrisy/inconsistency on Elfling

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  • Boris Shapiro
    Aiya! Friday, May 23, 2003, 3:28:44 PM, Carl F . Hostetter wrote: CFH Perhaps one of the Elfling moderators could explain why it is that CFH Patrick Wynne,
    Message 1 of 9 , May 23, 2003
      Aiya!

      Friday, May 23, 2003, 3:28:44 PM, Carl F . Hostetter wrote:

      CFH> Perhaps one of the Elfling moderators could explain why it is that
      CFH> Patrick Wynne, who has been a member of Elfling for many years now, and
      CFH> to my knowledge has never violated the list guidelines as constructed
      CFH> by David Salo himself (<http://www.yarinareth.net/David/elfling.html>),
      CFH> is still subject to prior approval of posting?
      Browsing through the Elfling message base one can learn that Patrick
      was evidently graylisted immediately after Dorothea Salo's
      announcement of the graylisting policy. Though he hadn't written
      anything for five months (thus there being no possibility of him
      violating list guidelines), his first message in February 2002 was
      already graylisted.


      Namaarie! S.Y., Elenhil Laiquendo


      : ilqua mi ambar cenin enyalta ยท wende i ea nin melya laa malta :
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... Indeed, but this doesn t explain why Pat is _still_ subject to prior approval. (Indeed, it raises yet another specter of hypocrisy: What had Pat ever
      Message 2 of 9 , May 23, 2003
        On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 09:14 AM, Boris Shapiro wrote:

        > Browsing through the Elfling message base one can learn that Patrick
        > was evidently graylisted immediately after Dorothea Salo's
        > announcement of the graylisting policy.

        Indeed, but this doesn't explain why Pat is _still_ subject to prior
        approval. (Indeed, it raises yet another specter of hypocrisy: What had
        Pat ever posted that in any way justified his being "graylisted" in the
        first place?) According to the current Elfling guidelines (again, as
        constructed by David Salo himself), there is no longer any policy of
        "graylisting"; and yet, Pat continues to be subject to prior approval.
        I ask again: Why?
      • Kai MacTane
        ... That s been on my mind for the past couple of days, as well. As you might guess, I don t really spend time going through the Elfling subscriber list
        Message 3 of 9 , May 23, 2003
          At 5/23/03 04:28 AM , Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
          >Perhaps one of the Elfling moderators could explain why it is that
          >Patrick Wynne, who has been a member of Elfling for many years now, and
          >to my knowledge has never violated the list guidelines as constructed
          >by David Salo himself (<http://www.yarinareth.net/David/elfling.html>),
          >is still subject to prior approval of posting?

          That's been on my mind for the past couple of days, as well. As you might
          guess, I don't really spend time going through the Elfling subscriber list
          checking to see who's on moderation and who isn't -- with over 2000
          subscribers, that would represent a substantial time-sink! So I only notice
          if someone's on moderation when they send in a message, which Patrick
          rarely does.

          When his message came through a few days ago, I thought, "That's funny. Why
          is he on moderated status?"

          >Are we really supposed to believe that there is no bias or hypocrisy
          >reflected in the fact that when applied to Pat, "eventually" is, thus
          >far, an open-ended interval that has already spanned years (and will
          >extend, by all appearances, to the heat death of the universe)

          Your hyperbole is amusing, but still hyperbole. I can't imagine Patrick's
          graylisting will last past the year 2150 or so. :)

          >while for everyone else it seems to be a matter of a few weeks at most?

          In actual practice, the specific time before someone gets off moderation
          varies a bit. It essentially comes down to: When does some moderator go
          "Hey, this person doesn't need to be moderated any more."? Which varies
          depending on things like how rushed and/or alert the moderators are, how
          literate and level-headed the person's posts are, and *how often we see
          their name* on the "Should this message be allowed through?" screen.

          As a general scale, when Thomas Ferencz started posting as "amanibhavam"
          instead of his previous address, I think it took somewhere from eight weeks
          to three months before we finally whitelisted that address. And Thomas is a
          known-good poster, already approved from his previous address -- and he
          posts fairly frequently. The process is much slower than "a few weeks at
          most" -- please note that the word used in the admin guidelines,
          "eventually", is pretty vague. So is the time scale for whitelisting. (In
          actual fact, though not necessarily by design.)

          --Kai MacTane
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          "Before you slip into unconsciousness,
          I'd like to have another kiss,
          Another flashing chance at bliss..."
          --The Doors,
          "The Crystal Ship"
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... LOL! Thanks for shedding some more light on the situation.
          Message 4 of 9 , May 23, 2003
            On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 03:43 PM, Kai MacTane wrote:

            > Your hyperbole is amusing, but still hyperbole. I can't imagine
            > Patrick's graylisting will last past the year 2150 or so. :)

            LOL!

            Thanks for shedding some more light on the situation.
          • Carl F. Hostetter
            I would like to ask another couple of questions of the Elfling moderators: 1) have any of Helge s postings _ever_ been moderated back to him, and 2) has he
            Message 5 of 9 , May 23, 2003
              I would like to ask another couple of questions of the Elfling
              moderators: 1) have any of Helge's postings _ever_ been moderated back
              to him, and 2) has he _ever_ been issued a warning, public or private,
              regarding the tone and contents of his posts?
            • Kai MacTane
              ... Naturally, I cannot speak for any other moderator. Unfortunately, I cannot say with any certainty for myself, either. I perform such activities via Yahoo!
              Message 6 of 9 , May 23, 2003
                At 5/23/03 02:50 PM , Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
                >I would like to ask another couple of questions of the Elfling
                >moderators: 1) have any of Helge's postings _ever_ been moderated back
                >to him, and 2) has he _ever_ been issued a warning, public or private,
                >regarding the tone and contents of his posts?

                Naturally, I cannot speak for any other moderator. Unfortunately, I cannot
                say with any certainty for myself, either. I perform such activities via
                Yahoo! Groups' web interface, and it doesn't keep track of sufficiently
                detailed information. (Having gone back and checked, I can see things like
                "3/24/2003 9:26 pm Rejected post #8974 via web by kmactane
                <kmactane@...>", but that gives me no information about who sent
                that post.

                Also, the number doesn't match up with the message numbers of actual,
                posted messages -- my suspicion is that these numbers only count messages
                which were subject to moderation, and messages from whitelisted members
                simply fly through and don't add to this count. For sure, the actual
                message #8974 was posted back in January of 2002, around when I was first
                subscribing to Elfling.

                And my own memory is not sufficient. I approve anywhere up to two dozen
                messages a day, and rejection numbers vary wildly, depending on how many
                people are asking questions that are answered in the FAQ in any given week.
                I'd love to be able to say, "Why yes, I told Helge back on March 22nd that
                his phrasing about such-and-so was a little overboard, and could he please
                tone it down." But all I can honestly say is, I have no recollection.

                --Kai MacTane
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                "I think that somehow/Somewhere inside of us,
                We must be similar/If not the same."
                --Suzanne Vega,
                "Left of Center"
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