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Three little datives are we (was Re: Help?)

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    In Elfling message 30623 ( ), Sébastien ... I don t think this can count as a general objection, in light
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 14, 2004
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      In Elfling message 30623
      (<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/30623>), Sébastien
      Bertho writes:

      > the sentence seems to imply a dative inflexion for the three nouns,
      > but this would be redundant

      I don't think this can count as a general objection, in light of
      Tolkien's own:

      _Alcar i ataren ar i yondon ar i airefean_
      'Glory [be] to the Father and to the Son to the Holy Spirit' (VT43:36)

      all three nouns in the sequence having the dative inflection.

      Carl


      --
      =============================================
      Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

      ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
      Ars longa, vita brevis.
      The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
      "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
      a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
    • jonathan_avidan
      Tolkien s signed dedication in Quenya, recently published, also demonstrates apparently redundant datives: _Elainen, tarin Periandion, ar meldenya anyaaran_
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 15, 2004
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        Tolkien's signed dedication in Quenya, recently published, also
        demonstrates apparently "redundant" datives:
        _Elainen, tarin Periandion, ar meldenya anyaaran_
        the words Elainen (< Elaine), _tarin_ (< tari) and _anyaaran_ seem
        to have the dative inflexion. Though it is peculiar why would the
        dative be inflected on the adjective (_anyaaran_, "most old,
        oldest") instead of the noun... (meldenya "my friend" < melde).



        --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
        wrote:
        > In Elfling message 30623
        > (<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/30623>), Sébastien
        > Bertho writes:
        >
        > > the sentence seems to imply a dative inflexion for the three
        nouns,
        > > but this would be redundant
        >
        > I don't think this can count as a general objection, in light of
        > Tolkien's own:
        >
        > _Alcar i ataren ar i yondon ar i airefean_
        > 'Glory [be] to the Father and to the Son to the Holy Spirit'
        (VT43:36)
        >
        > all three nouns in the sequence having the dative inflection.
        >
        > Carl
        >
        >
        > --
        > =============================================
        > Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@e... http://www.elvish.org
        >
        > ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
        > Ars longa, vita brevis.
        > The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
        > "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
        > a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... This might be a variation on the rule that Tolkien stipulated for names in apposition in UT:317 n.43, exemplified by _Elendil Vorondo_ of Elendil the
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 15, 2004
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          On Nov 15, 2004, at 7:28 AM, jonathan_avidan wrote:

          > it is peculiar why would the dative be inflected on the adjective
          > (_anyaaran_, "most old, oldest") instead of the noun... (meldenya "my
          > friend" < melde).

          This might be a variation on the rule that Tolkien stipulated for names
          in apposition in UT:317 n.43, exemplified by _Elendil Vorondo_ 'of
          Elendil the Faithful':

          "adjectives used as a 'title' or frequently used attribute of a name
          are placed after the name, and as is usual in Quenya in the case of two
          declinable names in apposition only the last is declined".

          Note that this formulation is often referred to as the "Last Declinable
          Word rule", but that would seem to be a misnomer, as Tolkien is
          speaking here strictly of names in apposition. It does demonstrate,
          though, that adjectives could be declined like nouns in at least some
          syntactic environments.


          --
          =============================================
          Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

          ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
          Ars longa, vita brevis.
          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
          "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
          a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
        • jonathan_avidan
          ... Declinable ... demonstrate, ... some ... Just like when making a noun out of an adjective, which would explain _vinyar_ for news ;) Also, is it possible
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 15, 2004
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            > Note that this formulation is often referred to as the "Last
            Declinable
            > Word rule", but that would seem to be a misnomer, as Tolkien is
            > speaking here strictly of names in apposition. It does
            demonstrate,
            > though, that adjectives could be declined like nouns in at least
            some
            > syntactic environments.

            Just like when making a noun out of an adjective, which would
            explain _vinyar_ for "news" ;)

            Also, is it possible to deduct from the phrase _meldenya anyaaran_
            that the apocope of the final vowel before a word beginning in that
            vowel is withheld when supposedly producing a repetitious syllable
            (i.e. *_meldeny' anyaaran_) or rather when the final consonant is
            palatalized? Not so plausible, as that rule is apparently withheld
            on many various and seemingly unrelated occasions.
          • Carl F. Hostetter
            ... Nice reference! ;) But in fact, the two cases are not syntactically equivalent, I would say. *_vinyar_ news is a nominalization of an adjective; while
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 15, 2004
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              On Nov 15, 2004, at 3:47 PM, jonathan_avidan wrote:

              > Just like when making a noun out of an adjective, which would explain
              > _vinyar_ for "news" ;)

              Nice reference! ;) But in fact, the two cases are not syntactically
              equivalent, I would say. *_vinyar_ 'news' is a nominalization of an
              adjective; while _anyaaran_ remains an adjective and modifies
              _meldanya_ 'my friend', but happens to take nominal inflection in this
              syntactic environment.

              > Also, is it possible to deduct from the phrase _meldenya anyaaran_
              > that the apocope of the final vowel before a word beginning in that
              > vowel is withheld when supposedly producing a repetitious syllable
              > (i.e. *_meldeny' anyaaran_) or rather when the final consonant is
              > palatalized? Not so plausible, as that rule is apparently withheld on
              > many various and seemingly unrelated occasions.

              I never had the impression that apocope was _required_, but rather that
              it was an optional contraction, much like English contractions like
              "can't" and "don't" are not obligatory for "cannot" and "do not".
            • jonathan_avidan
              ... that ... And still we might deduct some rules regarding to its usage (or non- usage, specifically). Can you think of any examples in which the contraction
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 16, 2004
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                > I never had the impression that apocope was _required_, but rather
                that
                > it was an optional contraction, much like English contractions like
                > "can't" and "don't" are not obligatory for "cannot" and "do not".

                And still we might deduct some rules regarding to its usage (or non-
                usage, specifically). Can you think of any examples in which the
                contraction produced /ny/, /ly/, /ry/ or /ty/ as a final consonant?
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