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Is this group about Elven language or not?

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  • eruantalisse
    Aiya ilquen, I do not know how to start this without the risk of being thrown out, so I will try to be not too offensive, which is absolutely not what I
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 30, 2003
      Aiya ilquen,
      I do not know how to start this without the risk of being thrown out,
      so I will try to be not too offensive, which is absolutely not what I
      intend.

      For I would like to learn the Quenya language, I am trying to find as
      much sources as I can find. I subscribed to the Elfling list, a few
      months ago, and to some other forums and study groups.

      When there was a discussion about banning on Elfling, and this list
      was started, I subscribed to this list for I thought I could learn
      even more. However, it seems that the discussions about banning
      and 'what happens after' is more important than language-related
      discussions.

      Too bad, though, for I understood there was a huge knowledge here,
      seeing the names of the owner and some members. And too bad, for the
      time they spend here is being spilled to arguing.

      I can perfectly understand that some people are angry, do not
      misunderstand me, please. However, when people start a language list,
      it is quite a surprise that the messages are not about languages at
      all. Ofcourse I do not need to read the messages about the banning
      and all that follows. However, that is quite difficult, for about 80%
      of the messages are about this situation.

      Well, this is just my opinion, which does not need to be noticed by
      the owner/mods. I realize that I am just a newbie on this group and
      not have as single right to criticize any one of you.

      Tenn' entecielva,
      Janet
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      ... You cannot be thrown out of this list. Unlike Elfling (which says it is unmoderated but is actually moderated in a biased fashion), this list truly is
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 30, 2003
        On Dec 30, 2003, at 8:46 AM, eruantalisse wrote:

        > I do not know how to start this without the risk of being thrown out,

        You cannot be thrown out of this list. Unlike Elfling (which says it is
        unmoderated but is actually moderated in a biased fashion), this list
        truly is unmodertated.

        As for the purpose of this list, it is stated in the description on the
        archives page, and in the welcome message every member receives:

        "This group serves as a meta-discussion list of the Elfling group
        (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling), including the policies and
        practices of its manager/moderator. It also serves as a forum for
        Elfling's graylisted or otherwise censored members to have their
        censored posts published and to conduct discussions."
      • eruantalisse
        ... it is unmoderated but is actually moderated in a biased fashion), this list truly is unmodertated. Ah, ok. I have to admit that I did not follow the whole
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 30, 2003
          > You cannot be thrown out of this list. Unlike Elfling (which says
          it is unmoderated but is actually moderated in a biased fashion),
          this list truly is unmodertated.

          Ah, ok. I have to admit that I did not follow the whole discussion, I
          only saw the titles of the posts.


          > As for the purpose of this list, it is stated in the description on
          the archives page, and in the welcome message every member receives:
          "This group serves as a meta-discussion list of the Elfling group
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling), including the policies and
          practices of its manager/moderator. It also serves as a forum for
          Elfling's graylisted or otherwise censored members to have their
          censored posts published and to conduct discussions."

          Does that mean questions about the languages will not be answered?
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... Since the list is unmoderated, you can ask any question you want. There s never any guarantee that questions will be answered, of course, but if any of the
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 30, 2003
            On Dec 30, 2003, at 11:51 AM, eruantalisse wrote:

            > Does that mean questions about the languages will not be answered?

            Since the list is unmoderated, you can ask any question you want.
            There's never any guarantee that questions will be answered, of course,
            but if any of the members want to answer it, there's nothing on this
            list to stop them. Just keep in mind that this list currently has a
            very small membership, and attracts mostly those interested in its
            purpose as a meta-discussion list for Elfling.
          • Didier
            ... Yet that _should_ not be the case, and I think the original poster should rather be redirected to the lists where such questions are likely to be answered
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 30, 2003
              Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
              > Since the list is unmoderated, you can ask any question you want.
              > There's never any guarantee that questions will be answered, of
              > course, but if any of the members want to answer it, there's
              > nothing on this [...]

              Yet that _should_ not be the case, and I think the original poster
              should rather be redirected to the lists where such questions are
              likely to be answered (i.e. ELFLING or LAMBENGOLMOR), whereas ELFLING-
              D _should_ remain devoted to the moderation issues of ELFLING,
              according to the list definition.

              The purpose of ELFLING-D is clearly stated in the list definition,
              and it's unclear to me why someone would subscribe, unless by
              accident, to this list for other purposes than the stated one.

              ***

              By the way, it has always been unclear for me why ELFLING-D, though
              mentioned in the early FAQ and web pages related to ELFLING, was
              destroyed and had to be re-created (by Carl). It seems to imply
              that "black-box" moderation was intended at some stage, hence the
              cancelation of the former ELFLING-D list. I do think that the
              existence of the meta-list, as it now stands, is a good thing, and I
              am grateful at least one moderator of ELFLING (Elimloth) is using it.
              I can even understand Elimloth rejection of some posts on ELFLING
              related to the recent banning events, as it would have been better,
              admitely, if the posters had used that list instead (I mean, both
              better for ELFLING, which could have stayed focussed on linguistics,
              and for ELFLING-D, which seems to have some unofficial status ;).

              Didier.
            • elimloth
              ... out, ... Actually, you or anyone else can be thrown off this list since that is a power of the list owner. By list owner that would be the person or his
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 30, 2003
                --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                wrote:
                >
                > On Dec 30, 2003, at 8:46 AM, eruantalisse wrote:
                > I do not know how to start this without the risk of being thrown
                out,
                > You cannot be thrown out of this list.

                Actually, you or anyone else can be thrown off this list since that
                is a power of the list owner. By list owner that would be the person
                or his assigns who hold the keys that permit management of the
                elfling-d list. Those people can delete posts from the archives,
                delete members, or ban them. This is a standard yahoo groups
                capability.

                Whomever owns the elfling-d list (I assume it's Carl) would likely
                not exercise that power given the intent of the elfling-d list.

                Unlike Elfling (which says it is
                > unmoderated but is actually moderated in a biased fashion), this
                list truly is unmodertated.

                Here I will object. Carl's claim that elfling is moderated in a
                biased fashion is his opinion, nothing more. That elfling is
                moderated is true to an extent because not all members of elfling
                are moderated. The details on that subject are at:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/27951.


                Elimloth
              • Carl F. Hostetter
                ... It is far more than that, if for no other reason than that it is an opinion widely shared. ... Do indeed read this statement, and be sure to note the
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 30, 2003
                  On Dec 30, 2003, at 4:19 PM, elimloth wrote:

                  > Carl's claim that elfling is moderated in a biased fashion is his
                  > opinion, nothing more.

                  It is far more than that, if for no other reason than that it is an
                  opinion widely shared.

                  > That elfling is moderated is true to an extent because not all members
                  > of elfling are moderated. The details on that subject are at:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elfling/message/27951.

                  Do indeed read this statement, and be sure to note the utterly false
                  claim therein that:

                  "There is one basic restriction that has always applied to everyone on
                  this list, and that is to post without sarcasm and without words that
                  denigrate others."

                  This supposedly universal restriction has _never_ applied to David
                  Salo, Lisa Star, or Helge Fauskanger, nor did it apply to Edouard
                  Kloczko before his falling-out with David and the others. To name just
                  a few prominent exceptions that put the lie to "Elimloth's" assertion.
                • Carl F. Hostetter
                  While Elimloth prefers to point the blame at others, I think it is time to ask what, if anything, can be done to give hope that Elfling can become anything
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 30, 2003
                    While "Elimloth" prefers to point the blame at others, I think it is
                    time to ask what, if anything, can be done to give hope that Elfling
                    can become anything like the list that it advertises itself as, but
                    that it's owner David Salo and (some of) its moderators have never
                    permitted it to be.

                    (To see just how far greatly David Salo has failed, consider the actual
                    content of Elfling in comparison with its stated goals at
                    <http://www.yarinareth.net/David/elfling.html>; chief amongs the
                    failures being: "The Elfling list exists to further the scholarly study
                    of the languages invented by JRR Tolkien". Further, compare Elfling
                    with the Lambengolmor list, which shares the same goal and actually
                    achieves it.)

                    As I see it, the only hope for real change will require two things:

                    1) David Salo must step aside as list owner and become simply a normal
                    contributor, subject to the same moderation as everyone else. His
                    outrageous posts ("They are the past, we are the future!" indeed) and
                    his utter disregard for his own stated policies and abuse of list-owner
                    powers in banning Patrick Wynne and myself have stripped from him any
                    respect or benefit of the doubt that might otherwise be due him, and
                    proven that there can be no expectation of fairness while he remains as
                    autocrat.

                    2) A new moderator or moderators must be found for the list that will
                    invest the time and effort needed to hold Elfling to its stated
                    policies and goals, and do so in an unbiased manner.

                    I regard these as unquestionably necessary, and hopefully sufficient,
                    measures to make Elfling into anything more than the pitiful joke that
                    it has become -- even its owner has so little interest in it that he
                    can't be bothered to answer questions or to correct the numerous errors
                    the list propagates -- and anything like the vision espoused for it. I
                    for one would not even consider rejoining the list until these two
                    steps are taken, and I dare say I am not alone.

                    Needless to say, to the extent that "Elimlot" and David Salo continue
                    to ignore and resist these obvious and necessary correctives to the
                    causes of Elfling's sorry state, they demonstrate their desire only to
                    maintain a status-quo that favors their self-serving agendas over the
                    cause of the scholarly study of Tolkien's invented languages.

                    Carl F. Hostetter


                    --
                    =============================================
                    Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org

                    ho bios brachys, he de techne makre.
                    Ars longa, vita brevis.
                    The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
                    "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take such
                    a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."
                  • Hans
                    Not much hope, I m afraid. Yes, bias means a shift to one side, and I have to agree: those absolute rules forbidding sarcasm and personal attacks weren t
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 1, 2004
                      Not much hope, I'm afraid. Yes, "bias" means a shift to one side, and
                      I have to agree: those "absolute" rules forbidding sarcasm and
                      personal attacks weren't applied to persons like Helge or Laurifindil;
                      they got away with remarks which would have banned others. In personal
                      discussion with Elimloth, we could only agree on disagreeing on that
                      (though I repeat it: I have respect for a moderator speaking in public
                      and explaining his views!)
                      Yes, that's not only true, but (as Carl said) obviously true. As Ales
                      Bican said, it may be natural that people aren't fair and objective
                      when they feel like owners (though Elfling wasn't created by David
                      Salo). The fact that David Salo doesn't feel like pronouncing a few
                      clarifying words even in such a situation when quite a few people
                      doubt that Elfling still makes sense, doesn't speak in favor of such
                      an "owner", sorry! I don't even speak of answers to questions of fans
                      who'd like to know the thoughts behind some Neo-Sindarin in the movies.
                      Carl's request of David Salo resigning is hardly realistic, and I
                      don't think it would be really necessary: a public declaration that
                      he'd avoid one-sided decisions based on personal dislikes in the
                      future would be sufficient. But that's not realistic, too, and it's a
                      pity that a list like Elfling is nearly paralyzed just because the
                      list owner is... what? Cowardly? Arrogant? I don't know, but imho he
                      should place his personality a bit lower than Tolkienian linguistics,
                      if he's really interested in the latter.

                      This all doesn't sound very optimistic or constructive, naturally, but
                      that can't be helped, and there's no need for despair, too. As long as
                      there are lists whose owners resist the temptation of "this is MY
                      list, and I decide how the rules are to be interpreted", we can post
                      there. And fortunately, there are such lists. So... happy new year!

                      Hans
                    • Aaron Shaw
                      ... Pity? I don t really see why it is such a big deal if ELFLING falls. There certainly are other places for discussion - and these tend to be better anyway.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 1, 2004
                        --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, "Hans" <gentlebeldin@h...> wrote:
                        >it's a pity that a list like Elfling is nearly paralyzed just
                        >because the list owner is... what? Cowardly? Arrogant?

                        Pity? I don't really see why it is such a big deal if ELFLING
                        falls. There certainly are other places for discussion - and these
                        tend to be better anyway. It's been a rather long time since I have
                        seen any discussion that is noteworthy come from ELFLING.

                        Aaron Shaw
                      • Hans
                        ... That s why I wrote there s no need for despair. You re right, Lambengolmor or the German Tolkien forum beat Elfling hands down, and it s more than likely
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 2, 2004
                          --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Shaw" <AaronShaw@m...> wrote:
                          > Pity? I don't really see why it is such a big deal if ELFLING
                          > falls. There certainly are other places for discussion

                          That's why I wrote there's no need for despair. You're right,
                          Lambengolmor or the German Tolkien forum beat Elfling hands down, and
                          it's more than likely there are lists with a similar level of
                          professionalism in other countries.

                          Hans
                        • elimloth
                          ... Then, Carl, perhaps it is time to put up or shut up. I am most interested in seeing how many people agree with your dubious findings. Create a poll on
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 2, 2004
                            --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                            wrote:

                            > [...] I
                            > for one would not even consider rejoining the list until these two
                            > steps are taken, and I dare say I am not alone.

                            Then, Carl, perhaps it is time to put up or shut up. I am most
                            interested in seeing how many people agree with your dubious
                            findings. Create a poll on elfling-d asking that question: Should
                            the list owner and moderators of elfling be removed or forced to
                            resign? Though such a poll has no direct force in the same sense
                            that a poll asking for the removal of Carl and his moderators from
                            Lambengolmor would carry no direct force, a poll could be the basis
                            of a petition if it turns out a majority or even plurality of the
                            elfling and elfling-wannabe population agreed. On the other hand, if
                            this poll points out a small fraction want such a thing to happen,
                            then perhaps it suggests a very different matter needs tending.

                            Elimloth
                          • Carl F. Hostetter
                            ... I don t do polls . If people want to express their opinion on this matter, they are free to do so right here. And no one ever said anything about
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 2, 2004
                              On Jan 2, 2004, at 9:03 PM, elimloth wrote:

                              > --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >> [...] I for one would not even consider rejoining the list until
                              >> these two steps are taken, and I dare say I am not alone.
                              >
                              > Then, Carl, perhaps it is time to put up or shut up. I am most
                              > interested in seeing how many people agree with your dubious findings.
                              > Create a poll on elfling-d asking that question: Should the list owner
                              > and moderators of elfling be removed or forced to resign?

                              I don't do "polls". If people want to express their opinion on this
                              matter, they are free to do so right here. And no one ever said
                              anything about "removing" David or "forcing him to resign" (impossible
                              even if desirable). I said he should step aside. Please don't
                              misrepresent my words yet again.

                              > if this poll points out a small fraction want such a thing to happen,
                              > then perhaps it suggests a very different matter needs tending.

                              This is an absolutely illogical statement. The fact that large numbers
                              of people are unaware of David's actions and/or aren't concerned about
                              them doesn't remove from his hypocrisy or arrogance. It is because of
                              what David has _done_ and _said_ that he should resign from his post,
                              not because of any lack of popularity or concern among the masses.
                              David has demonstrated that he is incapable of promoting the stated
                              purposes of Elfling or adhering to its policies; that alone is
                              sufficient to render him unsuited to the post of list owner, and that
                              alone renders his stepping aside necessary if there is to be any hope
                              of a corrective.

                              And _you know this_. You know as well as I do that it matters not one
                              whit what you say you will do in the future, or think the policy should
                              be: David can and will, as already amply demonstrated, sweep your
                              decisions and judgments aside on a whim, to ban whomever he chooses for
                              his own petty reasons. So long as David remains in the position of list
                              owner, _your_ plans or statements concerning the list mean precisely
                              _nothing_.
                            • elimloth
                              ... However it is done, I ask them to so now. I remain interested in the results. ... (impossible even if desirable) Do you desire this (no more if s
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 2, 2004
                                --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                                wrote:

                                > I don't do "polls". If people want to express their opinion
                                > on this matter, they are free to do so right here.

                                However it is done, I ask them to so now. I remain interested in the
                                results.

                                > And no one ever said
                                > anything about "removing" David or "forcing him to resign"
                                > (impossible even if desirable). I said he should step aside.
                                > Please don't misrepresent my words yet again.

                                "(impossible even if desirable)" Do you desire this (no more 'if's
                                please)?

                                And what is the difference in the end were this event to happen by
                                either circumstance?

                                Is your constant demand of a change of ownership of that group what
                                you desire? And then what?

                                Are you proposing to take over leadership?

                                Do you desire elfling to wither away to be replaced by lambengolmor?

                                Frankly, Carl, it seems to me you took care of the problem you
                                perceived by providing another forum, Lambengolmor. Seems like
                                mission accomplished to me. You have your new group, your continued
                                publications, your new (and interesting) Tengwestie site, and your
                                gathering of many varied elvish related sites under your umbrella
                                servers as www.elvish.org. This is a wealth of material under your
                                control.

                                So tell me again what is the problem with someone not under your
                                control moderating another e-group? You write:

                                > The fact that large numbers of people are unaware of David's
                                > actions and/or aren't concerned about
                                > them doesn't remove from his hypocrisy or arrogance.

                                Or perhaps many of these 2000 people are aware than one person was
                                banned from a group and since that time he has lashed out at his
                                nemesis. It does look this way to me and perhaps to others. Perhaps
                                people see a feud that started at Tolklang that has grown without an
                                end in sight.

                                This is such a waste of time and energy.

                                > You know as well as I do that it matters not one whit what you
                                > say you will do in the future, or think the policy should be:

                                So far, I have been mostly in agreement with policy (people do have
                                differing opinions), and so far I have been able to exercise and
                                interpret those policies. Despite your claims of terrible moderation
                                and failure on my part, I have cleaned up elfing quite a bit, but it
                                seems to me you are not interested in incremental change.

                                > [1] David can and will, as already amply demonstrated, sweep your
                                > decisions and judgments aside on a whim, [2] to ban whomever he
                                > chooses for his own petty reasons.

                                [1] Actually, no. That has not happened.
                                [2] ...and that does not apply, at least to Pat. Remember? I
                                reinstated Pat? As for you, the ban placed on your head happened
                                before my time at elfling. I did consider lifting your ban, but our
                                private conversations and these public ones teach me I'd be barraged
                                by rebuttals to any moderations demands "to the heat death of the
                                universe" (nice hyperbole, btw).

                                > So long as David remains in the position of list
                                > owner, _your_ plans or statements concerning the list mean
                                > precisely _nothing_.

                                Gosh, I've just been zero-summed out. Very well.

                                Since you dismiss my statements as nothing, then there is nothing to
                                discuss with you. How sad. Stalemate.

                                I remain hopeful, (and please answer my questions),
                                Elimloth
                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                ... No, unlike David and yourself, I don t want _anyone_ forced to leave Elfling. ... You can t see any difference between force and persuasion? Between doing
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 3, 2004
                                  On Jan 3, 2004, at 1:27 AM, elimloth wrote:

                                  > --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@e...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> And no one ever said anything about "removing" David or "forcing him
                                  >> to resign" (impossible even if desirable). I said he should step
                                  >> aside. Please don't misrepresent my words yet again.
                                  >
                                  > "(impossible even if desirable)" Do you desire this (no more 'if's
                                  > please)?

                                  No, unlike David and yourself, I don't want _anyone_ forced to leave
                                  Elfling.


                                  > And what is the difference in the end were this event to happen by
                                  > either circumstance?

                                  You can't see any difference between force and persuasion? Between
                                  doing what is right because forced, and doing what is right because it
                                  is right? And you are a Tolkien fan? No wonder you were picked to be
                                  moderator of Elfling....

                                  > Is your constant demand of a change of ownership of that group what
                                  > you desire? And then what?

                                  What "constant demand"? Did you just lecture me about hyperbole?

                                  > And then what?

                                  As I already stated: a change of moderatorial staff, and strict
                                  adherence to the stated purpose and policies of the list, applied
                                  equally to everyone. In other words: that the staff of Elfling do
                                  _exactly_ what it is _promised_ they will do, but never yet have.

                                  > Are you proposing to take over leadership?

                                  Good God, no.

                                  > Do you desire elfling to wither away to be replaced by lambengolmor?

                                  Absolutely not.

                                  That you see things in such terms really demonstrates your relationship
                                  with David Salo and Helge Fauskanger: this competitive,
                                  "winner-take-all" attitude is what leads them to behave in such
                                  outrageous, desperate, and hypocritical fashion.

                                  > Frankly, Carl, it seems to me you took care of the problem you
                                  > perceived by providing another forum, Lambengolmor.

                                  Sadly, I fear that it really _does_ seem that way to you, demonstrating
                                  that you _still_ don't get it, despite my laying it out for you plainly
                                  any number of times: the issue is _not_ any other list than Elfling, or
                                  any behavior than the staff of Elfling and its favored few. There is a
                                  fundamental disconnect between the stated purpose and policies of
                                  Elfling and the actual management and content of the list. It is thus
                                  _broken_, which fact would remain even if there were 100
                                  Lambengolmor-type lists. The presence of Lambengolmor in no way removes
                                  from Elfling the hypocrisy and bias of yourself and David Salo, or the
                                  petty, jealous anger of Helge Fauskanger and the many attacks you
                                  permit him.

                                  > Or perhaps many of these 2000 people are aware than one person was
                                  > banned from a group and since that time he has lashed out at his
                                  > nemesis.

                                  Once again, you are attempting to ignore the real problem and shift the
                                  blame to someone else. Are you that desperate to please David Salo?

                                  > This is such a waste of time and energy.

                                  Indeed. Unless you direct some time and energy towards the two
                                  necessary corrective steps I listed, everything you do is a waste of
                                  time and energy.

                                  >> [1] David can and will, as already amply demonstrated, sweep your
                                  >> decisions and judgments aside on a whim, [2] to ban whomever he
                                  >> chooses for his own petty reasons.
                                  >
                                  > [1] Actually, no. That has not happened.

                                  It has happened at least _twice_ that David has circumvented policy and
                                  moderation and banned someone. Clearly, he can do so again at any time.

                                  > [2] ...and that does not apply, at least to Pat. Remember? I
                                  > reinstated Pat?

                                  Subject to your biased moderation, and with no promise whatsoever that
                                  the bias will be removed and the list policies adhered to and applied
                                  to everyone: in fact, assurance that they will _not_, since David
                                  remains at the helm. It may be convenient for you and David that Pat
                                  returns in such a submissive posture, since the banning blew up in
                                  David's face, but unfortunately for you both neither Pat nor the
                                  members of this list are as stupid as you seem to count on them being.
                                • galadhorn
                                  ... If you think that Carl is controlling my website or the website of Ales Bican you are completely wrong, Elimloth. Please, don t write about things of which
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 4, 2004
                                    Elimloth wrote:

                                    > and your
                                    > gathering of many varied elvish related sites under your umbrella
                                    > servers as www.elvish.org. This is a wealth of material under your
                                    > control.

                                    If you think that Carl is controlling my website or the website of
                                    Ales Bican you are completely wrong, Elimloth. Please, don't write
                                    about things of which you know nothing! Gwaith-i-Phethdain and ELM
                                    are independent websites. The only person who controls my website is
                                    me though Carl's advice and his opinions have high value for me.
                                    Carl's only condition is that I need to respect the copyrights of
                                    the authors - but I hope it is understandable for everybody.

                                    Namárië

                                    Ryszard "Galadhorn" Derdzinski
                                  • elimloth
                                    ... Domain ID:D8833665-LROR Domain Name:ELVISH.ORG Created On:04-Aug-1999 19:13:15 UTC Last Updated On:09-Oct-2003 10:24:30 UTC Expiration Date:04-Aug-2004
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 4, 2004
                                      --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, "galadhorn" <galadhorn@t...> wrote:
                                      > If you think that Carl is controlling my website or the website of
                                      > Ales Bican you are completely wrong, Elimloth. Please, don't write
                                      > about things of which you know nothing! Gwaith-i-Phethdain and ELM
                                      > are independent websites. [...]

                                      Domain ID:D8833665-LROR
                                      Domain Name:ELVISH.ORG
                                      Created On:04-Aug-1999 19:13:15 UTC
                                      Last Updated On:09-Oct-2003 10:24:30 UTC
                                      Expiration Date:04-Aug-2004 19:13:07 UTC
                                      Sponsoring Registrar:R11-LROR
                                      Status:OK
                                      Registrant ID:tuclIkMh7eDaYXen
                                      Registrant Name:Carl Hostetter
                                      Registrant Organization:Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
                                      Registrant Street1:2509 Ambling Circle
                                      Registrant City:Crofton
                                      Registrant State/Province:MD
                                      Registrant Postal Code:21114
                                      Registrant Country:US
                                      Registrant Phone:+1.4107215690
                                      Registrant Email:Aelfwine@...
                                      Admin ID:tuclIkMh7eDaYXen
                                      Admin Name:Carl Hostetter
                                      Admin Organization:Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
                                      Admin Street1:2509 Ambling Circle
                                      Admin City:Crofton
                                      Admin State/Province:MD
                                      Admin Postal Code:21114
                                      Admin Country:US
                                      Admin Phone:+1.4107215690
                                      Admin Email:Aelfwine@...
                                      Tech ID:tuclIkMh7eDaYXen
                                      Tech Name:Carl Hostetter
                                      Tech Organization:Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
                                      Tech Street1:2509 Ambling Circle
                                      Tech City:Crofton
                                      Tech State/Province:MD
                                      Tech Postal Code:21114
                                      Tech Country:US
                                      Tech Phone:+1.4107215690
                                      Tech Email:Aelfwine@...
                                      Name Server:NS1.IPOWERDNS.COM
                                      Name Server:NS2.IPOWERDNS.COM
                                    • elimloth
                                      ... Domain ID:D8833665-LROR Domain Name:ELVISH.ORG Created On:04-Aug-1999 19:13:15 UTC Last Updated On:09-Oct-2003 10:24:30 UTC Expiration Date:04-Aug-2004
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jan 4, 2004
                                        --- In elfling-d@yahoogroups.com, "galadhorn" <galadhorn@t...> wrote:
                                        > If you think that Carl is controlling my website or the website of
                                        > Ales Bican you are completely wrong, Elimloth. Please, don't write
                                        > about things of which you know nothing! Gwaith-i-Phethdain and ELM
                                        > are independent websites. [...]

                                        Domain ID:D8833665-LROR
                                        Domain Name:ELVISH.ORG
                                        Created On:04-Aug-1999 19:13:15 UTC
                                        Last Updated On:09-Oct-2003 10:24:30 UTC
                                        Expiration Date:04-Aug-2004 19:13:07 UTC
                                        Sponsoring Registrar:R11-LROR
                                        Status:OK
                                        Registrant ID:tuclIkMh7eDaYXen
                                        Registrant Name:Carl Hostetter
                                        Registrant Organization:Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
                                        Registrant Street1:2509 Ambling Circle
                                        Registrant City:Crofton
                                        Registrant State/Province:MD
                                        Registrant Postal Code:21114
                                        Registrant Country:US
                                        Registrant Phone:+1.4107215690
                                        Registrant Email:Aelfwine@...
                                        Admin ID:tuclIkMh7eDaYXen
                                        Admin Name:Carl Hostetter
                                        Admin Organization:Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
                                        Admin Street1:2509 Ambling Circle
                                        Admin City:Crofton
                                        Admin State/Province:MD
                                        Admin Postal Code:21114
                                        Admin Country:US
                                        Admin Phone:+1.4107215690
                                        Admin Email:Aelfwine@...
                                        Tech ID:tuclIkMh7eDaYXen
                                        Tech Name:Carl Hostetter
                                        Tech Organization:Elvish Linguistic Fellowship
                                        Tech Street1:2509 Ambling Circle
                                        Tech City:Crofton
                                        Tech State/Province:MD
                                        Tech Postal Code:21114
                                        Tech Country:US
                                        Tech Phone:+1.4107215690
                                        Tech Email:Aelfwine@...
                                        Name Server:NS1.IPOWERDNS.COM
                                        Name Server:NS2.IPOWERDNS.COM
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