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Re: [eldil] Satanism and satanists

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  • Steve Hayes
    ... For more on this, and why I am asking, see: http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/ -- Steve Hayes E-mail:
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 13, 2013
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      On 12 Sep 2013 at 15:58, Steve Hayes wrote:

      > What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think it
      > is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase "s")
      > was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven", and
      > that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be described,
      > at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

      For more on this, and why I am asking, see:

      http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/


      --
      Steve Hayes
      E-mail: shayes@...
      Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
      Fax: 086-548-2525
    • Steve Hayes
      A quote from War in heaven , followed by a question: Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary of life issued. He felt
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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        A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:

        Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary
        of life issued. He felt perplexed and uncertain; he had expected a door and
        found an iron barrier.

        "But," he said doubtfully, "had Judas himself no delight? There is an old
        story that there is rapture in the worship of treachery and malice and
        cruelty and sin."

        "Pooh," Lionel said contemptuously; "it is the ordinary religion disguised;
        it is the church-going clerk's religion. Satanism is the clerk at the
        brothel. Audacious little middleclass cock-sparrow!"

        "You are talking wildly," Gregory said a little angrily. "I have met people
        who have made me sure that there is a rapture of iniquity."

        "There is a rapture of anything, if you come to that," Lionel answered;
        "drink or gambling or poetry or love or (I suppose) satanism. But the one
        certainty is that the traitor is always and everywhere present in evil and
        good alike, and all is horrible in the end."

        "There is a way to delight in horror," Gregory said.?

        === end quote ===

        There is a quite widespread perception that Satanism was invented by Anton la
        Vey in the 1960s, yet here is Williams using the term in a book written 30-40
        years earlier.

        The Wikipedia article on Satanism

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

        speaks of it is a religion, but while it may be possible to speak of post-
        LaVeyan Satanism as a religion, before that I believe it was thought of more
        in terms of this conversation, and it may have been entertained by some
        people in the ritual magic circles that Williams came into contact with.

        What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think
        it is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase
        "s") was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven",
        and that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be
        described, at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

        What is perhaps more debatable is whether Williams thought of satanism in the
        way Lionel Rackstraw describes it -- as "ordinary religion disguised" -- in
        other words, whether for Williams "satanism" was not a religion per se, but a
        kind of Christian deviation, a heresy.

        I originally posted this in the neo-Inklings forum, and did not at first post it here because I feared it might get bogged
        down in discussions of whether magic is "real" or not. My concern is rather
        what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought of "satanism".

        There is more in a blog post here:

        http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/

        but my views have changed quite a bit since I wrote that, manly as a result
        of the Kirsty Theologo case, in which a group of members of a church youth
        group decided to sacrifice a couple of their friends to the devil so that
        they could gain power. On Thursday two of them were found guilty of
        premeditated murder. I still think that is is related to Williams's "clerk at
        the brothel" comments, though I'm having to remix my hypothesis.



        --
        Steve Hayes
        E-mail: shayes@...
        Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/litmain.htm
        http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
      • Ahnemann
        Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn t above that at times in his life. Religion? A squishy word at best. I ve known people who practiced a religion of owning
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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          Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn't above that at times in his life. Religion? A squishy word at best. I've known people who practiced a 'religion' of owning a Porsche. 
          AJA

          Sent from my iPad

          On Nov 9, 2013, at 12:50 PM, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@...> wrote:

           

          A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:

          Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary
          of life issued. He felt perplexed and uncertain; he had expected a door and
          found an iron barrier.

          "But," he said doubtfully, "had Judas himself no delight? There is an old
          story that there is rapture in the worship of treachery and malice and
          cruelty and sin."

          "Pooh," Lionel said contemptuously; "it is the ordinary religion disguised;
          it is the church-going clerk's religion. Satanism is the clerk at the
          brothel. Audacious little middleclass cock-sparrow!"

          "You are talking wildly," Gregory said a little angrily. "I have met people
          who have made me sure that there is a rapture of iniquity."

          "There is a rapture of anything, if you come to that," Lionel answered;
          "drink or gambling or poetry or love or (I suppose) satanism. But the one
          certainty is that the traitor is always and everywhere present in evil and
          good alike, and all is horrible in the end."

          "There is a way to delight in horror," Gregory said.?

          === end quote ===

          There is a quite widespread perception that Satanism was invented by Anton la
          Vey in the 1960s, yet here is Williams using the term in a book written 30-40
          years earlier.

          The Wikipedia article on Satanism

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

          speaks of it is a religion, but while it may be possible to speak of post-
          LaVeyan Satanism as a religion, before that I believe it was thought of more
          in terms of this conversation, and it may have been entertained by some
          people in the ritual magic circles that Williams came into contact with.

          What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think
          it is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase
          "s") was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven",
          and that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be
          described, at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

          What is perhaps more debatable is whether Williams thought of satanism in the
          way Lionel Rackstraw describes it -- as "ordinary religion disguised" -- in
          other words, whether for Williams "satanism" was not a religion per se, but a
          kind of Christian deviation, a heresy.

          I originally posted this in the neo-Inklings forum, and did not at first post it here because I feared it might get bogged
          down in discussions of whether magic is "real" or not. My concern is rather
          what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought of "satanism".

          There is more in a blog post here:

          http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/

          but my views have changed quite a bit since I wrote that, manly as a result
          of the Kirsty Theologo case, in which a group of members of a church youth
          group decided to sacrifice a couple of their friends to the devil so that
          they could gain power. On Thursday two of them were found guilty of
          premeditated murder. I still think that is is related to Williams's "clerk at
          the brothel" comments, though I'm having to remix my hypothesis.

          --
          Steve Hayes
          E-mail: shayes@...
          Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/litmain.htm
          http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw


        • Isaac Chenchiah
          Could it be that you meant to say Religion? A squishy word at *worst* ? At best it is not squishy at all. On the other hand many words become squishy at
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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            Could it be that you meant to say "Religion? A squishy word at *worst*"? At best it is not squishy at all. On the other hand many words become squishy at worst, "love" and "faith" being two common examples.

            As for CW and lust for power, to be fair all of us struggle with this albeit in different guises. It might even be "the last idolatry". One way to understand martyrdom is that a martyr overcomes this final temptation and choses truth over power.

            Isaac


            On 9 November 2013 19:04, Ahnemann <ahnemann@...> wrote:
             

            Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn't above that at times in his life. Religion? A squishy word at best. I've known people who practiced a 'religion' of owning a Porsche. 
            AJA

            Sent from my iPad

            On Nov 9, 2013, at 12:50 PM, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@...> wrote:

             

            A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:

            Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary
            of life issued. He felt perplexed and uncertain; he had expected a door and
            found an iron barrier.

            "But," he said doubtfully, "had Judas himself no delight? There is an old
            story that there is rapture in the worship of treachery and malice and
            cruelty and sin."

            "Pooh," Lionel said contemptuously; "it is the ordinary religion disguised;
            it is the church-going clerk's religion. Satanism is the clerk at the
            brothel. Audacious little middleclass cock-sparrow!"

            "You are talking wildly," Gregory said a little angrily. "I have met people
            who have made me sure that there is a rapture of iniquity."

            "There is a rapture of anything, if you come to that," Lionel answered;
            "drink or gambling or poetry or love or (I suppose) satanism. But the one
            certainty is that the traitor is always and everywhere present in evil and
            good alike, and all is horrible in the end."

            "There is a way to delight in horror," Gregory said.?

            === end quote ===

            There is a quite widespread perception that Satanism was invented by Anton la
            Vey in the 1960s, yet here is Williams using the term in a book written 30-40
            years earlier.

            The Wikipedia article on Satanism

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

            speaks of it is a religion, but while it may be possible to speak of post-
            LaVeyan Satanism as a religion, before that I believe it was thought of more
            in terms of this conversation, and it may have been entertained by some
            people in the ritual magic circles that Williams came into contact with.

            What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think
            it is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase
            "s") was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven",
            and that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be
            described, at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

            What is perhaps more debatable is whether Williams thought of satanism in the
            way Lionel Rackstraw describes it -- as "ordinary religion disguised" -- in
            other words, whether for Williams "satanism" was not a religion per se, but a
            kind of Christian deviation, a heresy.

            I originally posted this in the neo-Inklings forum, and did not at first post it here because I feared it might get bogged
            down in discussions of whether magic is "real" or not. My concern is rather
            what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought of "satanism".

            There is more in a blog post here:

            http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/

            but my views have changed quite a bit since I wrote that, manly as a result
            of the Kirsty Theologo case, in which a group of members of a church youth
            group decided to sacrifice a couple of their friends to the devil so that
            they could gain power. On Thursday two of them were found guilty of
            premeditated murder. I still think that is is related to Williams's "clerk at
            the brothel" comments, though I'm having to remix my hypothesis.

            --
            Steve Hayes
            E-mail: shayes@...
            Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/litmain.htm
            http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw





            --
            When You heal, everything comes back to life, even in the past, and You give fruits to the one who has not known how to flower. - Maurice Blondel

            Isaac Vikram Chenchiah
            iChenchiah@...
            Mobile: ++ 44 7962 444 713
          • Steve Hayes
            ... My concerns is not so much whether Williams himself had a lust for power as whether he knew what satanism was. There seems to be quite a strong movement
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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              On 9 Nov 2013 at 14:04, Ahnemann wrote:

              > Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn't above that at times in his life.
              > Religion? A squishy word at best. I've known people who practiced a 'religion'
              > of owning a Porsche. AJA

              My concerns is not so much whether Williams himself had a lust for power as
              whether he knew what satanism was.

              There seems to be quite a strong movement among scholars of religion to say
              that "Satanic Ritual Abuse" is purely a media fabrication and a "moral
              panic".

              What Williams describes in "War in heaven" is undoubtedly satanic ritual
              abuse, and of course it is a work of fiction. Was he simply making up things,
              so that nothing of that sort had ever occurred?

              People write fiction about all sorts of things. I've read fiction about
              aerial combat between fighter aircraft -- but just because that is fiction
              does not mean that no aerial combat has ever taken place. Similarly, just
              because Persimmons is a fictional character does not mean that the kind of
              things Williams said he did have never taken place, anywhere.


              --
              Steve Hayes
              E-mail: shayes@...
              Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/litmain.htm
              http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
            • Graham Darling
              The case of Gilles de Rais is quite well documented - Williams refers to it himself in his book Witchcraft . He was a companion-in-arms to Joan of Arc, who
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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                The case of Gilles de Rais is quite well documented - Williams refers to
                it himself in his book "Witchcraft". He was a companion-in-arms to Joan
                of Arc, who eventually drifted over to the Dark Side. Makes for some
                pretty nasty reading.

                On 11/9/2013, 20:19 , Steve Hayes wrote:
                > On 9 Nov 2013 at 14:04, Ahnemann wrote:
                >
                >> Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn't above that at times in his life.
                >> Religion? A squishy word at best. I've known people who practiced a 'religion'
                >> of owning a Porsche. AJA
                >
                > My concerns is not so much whether Williams himself had a lust for power as
                > whether he knew what satanism was.
                >
                > There seems to be quite a strong movement among scholars of religion to say
                > that "Satanic Ritual Abuse" is purely a media fabrication and a "moral
                > panic".
                >
                > What Williams describes in "War in heaven" is undoubtedly satanic ritual
                > abuse, and of course it is a work of fiction. Was he simply making up things,
                > so that nothing of that sort had ever occurred?
                >
                > People write fiction about all sorts of things. I've read fiction about
                > aerial combat between fighter aircraft -- but just because that is fiction
                > does not mean that no aerial combat has ever taken place. Similarly, just
                > because Persimmons is a fictional character does not mean that the kind of
                > things Williams said he did have never taken place, anywhere.

                -GD

                --

                Mr. Graham Darling, PhD
                1007-D Gilmore Ave.
                Burnaby, BC V5C 4S4
                Canada

                Phone 778-836-7122
                Email darlingg@...
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