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Satanism and satanists

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  • Steve Hayes
    A quote from War in heaven , followed by a question: Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary of life issued. He felt
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 12, 2013
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      A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:

      Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary
      of life issued. He felt perplexed and uncertain; he had expected a door and
      found an iron barrier.

      "But," he said doubtfully, "had Judas himself no delight? There is an old
      story that there is rapture in the worship of treachery and malice and
      cruelty and sin."

      "Pooh," Lionel said contemptuously; "it is the ordinary religion disguised;
      it is the church-going clerk's religion. Satanism is the clerk at the
      brothel. Audacious little middleclass cock-sparrow!"

      "You are talking wildly," Gregory said a little angrily. "I have met people
      who have made me sure that there is a rapture of iniquity."

      "There is a rapture of anything, if you come to that," Lionel answered;
      "drink or gambling or poetry or love or (I suppose) satanism. But the one
      certainty is that the traitor is always and everywhere present in evil and
      good alike, and all is horrible in the end."

      "There is a way to delight in horror," Gregory said.?

      === end quote ===

      There is a quite widespread perception that Satanism was invented by Anton la
      Vey in the 1960s, yet here is Williams using the term in a book written 30-40
      years earlier.

      The Wikipedia article on Satanism

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

      speaks of it is a religion, but while it may be possible to speak of post-
      LaVeyan Satanism as a religion, before that I believe it was thought of more
      in terms of this conversation, and it may have been entertained by some
      people in the ritual magic circles that Williams came into contact with.

      What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think
      it is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase
      "s") was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven",
      and that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be
      described, at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

      What is perhaps more debatable is whether Williams thought of satanism in the
      way Lionel Rackstraw describes it -- as "ordinary religion disguised" -- in
      other words, whether for Williams "satanism" was not a religion per se, but a
      kind of Christian deviation, a heresy.

      I had thought of posting this in the coinherence forum, which is specifically
      for discussing the works of Williams rather than those of all the Inklings,
      but in view of some recent discussions there I feared it might get bogged
      down in discussions of whether magic is "real" or not. My concern is rather
      what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought of "satanism".



      --
      Steve Hayes
      E-mail: shayes@...
      Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
      Fax: 086-548-2525
    • Graham Darling
      ... ... He wrote a book on it - or, as it was understood by the West - Witchcraft , 1941. This was before the identification of witchcraft with
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 12, 2013
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        On 2013-09-12 06:58 , Steve Hayes wrote:
        > A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:
        <snip>
        > My concern is rather what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought of "satanism".

        He wrote a book on it - or, as it was understood by the West -
        "Witchcraft", 1941. This was before the identification of witchcraft
        with paganism popularized by Margaret Murray (now discredited by
        academics - the Pagans had their own witches).

        An early "pact with with the Devil" story is that of Theophilus of
        Adana, 6th C.

        St. Augustine condemned devil-worship in his "City of God", 5th C.

        The 3rd C gnostic Ophites are said to have worshipped the Serpent that
        tempted Eve.

        Jesus Himself was offered power in return for bowing down to the Devil.
        He didn't take the deal.

        -GD

        --

        Mr. Graham Darling, PhD
        1007-D Gilmore Ave.
        Burnaby, BC V5C 4S4
        Canada

        Phone 778-836-7122
        Email darlingg@...
      • Steve Hayes
        ... Thanks very much for this. Perhaps I should re-read Williams s Witchcraft . but, as I recall it, he did not identify witchcraft with satanism, but rather
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 12, 2013
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          On 12 Sep 2013 at 18:13, Graham Darling wrote:

          > On 2013-09-12 06:58 , Steve Hayes wrote:
          > > A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:
          > <snip>
          > > My concern is rather what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought
          > > of "satanism".
          >
          > He wrote a book on it - or, as it was understood by the West -
          > "Witchcraft", 1941. This was before the identification of witchcraft
          > with paganism popularized by Margaret Murray (now discredited by
          > academics - the Pagans had their own witches).

          Thanks very much for this.

          Perhaps I should re-read Williams's "Witchcraft". but, as I recall it, he did
          not identify witchcraft with satanism, but rather chronicled the way in such
          an identification came to be made in Western Christianity, culminating in the
          Great European Witchhunt in the early modern period.

          > An early "pact with with the Devil" story is that of Theophilus of
          > Adana, 6th C.
          >
          > St. Augustine condemned devil-worship in his "City of God", 5th C.
          >
          > The 3rd C gnostic Ophites are said to have worshipped the Serpent that
          > tempted Eve.
          >
          > Jesus Himself was offered power in return for bowing down to the Devil.
          > He didn't take the deal.


          --
          Steve Hayes
          E-mail: shayes@...
          Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
          Fax: 086-548-2525
        • Steve Hayes
          ... For more on this, and why I am asking, see: http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/ -- Steve Hayes E-mail:
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 13, 2013
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            On 12 Sep 2013 at 15:58, Steve Hayes wrote:

            > What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think it
            > is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase "s")
            > was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven", and
            > that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be described,
            > at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

            For more on this, and why I am asking, see:

            http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/


            --
            Steve Hayes
            E-mail: shayes@...
            Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
            Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
            Fax: 086-548-2525
          • Steve Hayes
            A quote from War in heaven , followed by a question: Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary of life issued. He felt
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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              A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:

              Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary
              of life issued. He felt perplexed and uncertain; he had expected a door and
              found an iron barrier.

              "But," he said doubtfully, "had Judas himself no delight? There is an old
              story that there is rapture in the worship of treachery and malice and
              cruelty and sin."

              "Pooh," Lionel said contemptuously; "it is the ordinary religion disguised;
              it is the church-going clerk's religion. Satanism is the clerk at the
              brothel. Audacious little middleclass cock-sparrow!"

              "You are talking wildly," Gregory said a little angrily. "I have met people
              who have made me sure that there is a rapture of iniquity."

              "There is a rapture of anything, if you come to that," Lionel answered;
              "drink or gambling or poetry or love or (I suppose) satanism. But the one
              certainty is that the traitor is always and everywhere present in evil and
              good alike, and all is horrible in the end."

              "There is a way to delight in horror," Gregory said.?

              === end quote ===

              There is a quite widespread perception that Satanism was invented by Anton la
              Vey in the 1960s, yet here is Williams using the term in a book written 30-40
              years earlier.

              The Wikipedia article on Satanism

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

              speaks of it is a religion, but while it may be possible to speak of post-
              LaVeyan Satanism as a religion, before that I believe it was thought of more
              in terms of this conversation, and it may have been entertained by some
              people in the ritual magic circles that Williams came into contact with.

              What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think
              it is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase
              "s") was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven",
              and that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be
              described, at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

              What is perhaps more debatable is whether Williams thought of satanism in the
              way Lionel Rackstraw describes it -- as "ordinary religion disguised" -- in
              other words, whether for Williams "satanism" was not a religion per se, but a
              kind of Christian deviation, a heresy.

              I originally posted this in the neo-Inklings forum, and did not at first post it here because I feared it might get bogged
              down in discussions of whether magic is "real" or not. My concern is rather
              what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought of "satanism".

              There is more in a blog post here:

              http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/

              but my views have changed quite a bit since I wrote that, manly as a result
              of the Kirsty Theologo case, in which a group of members of a church youth
              group decided to sacrifice a couple of their friends to the devil so that
              they could gain power. On Thursday two of them were found guilty of
              premeditated murder. I still think that is is related to Williams's "clerk at
              the brothel" comments, though I'm having to remix my hypothesis.



              --
              Steve Hayes
              E-mail: shayes@...
              Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/litmain.htm
              http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
            • Ahnemann
              Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn t above that at times in his life. Religion? A squishy word at best. I ve known people who practiced a religion of owning
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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                Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn't above that at times in his life. Religion? A squishy word at best. I've known people who practiced a 'religion' of owning a Porsche. 
                AJA

                Sent from my iPad

                On Nov 9, 2013, at 12:50 PM, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@...> wrote:

                 

                A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:

                Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary
                of life issued. He felt perplexed and uncertain; he had expected a door and
                found an iron barrier.

                "But," he said doubtfully, "had Judas himself no delight? There is an old
                story that there is rapture in the worship of treachery and malice and
                cruelty and sin."

                "Pooh," Lionel said contemptuously; "it is the ordinary religion disguised;
                it is the church-going clerk's religion. Satanism is the clerk at the
                brothel. Audacious little middleclass cock-sparrow!"

                "You are talking wildly," Gregory said a little angrily. "I have met people
                who have made me sure that there is a rapture of iniquity."

                "There is a rapture of anything, if you come to that," Lionel answered;
                "drink or gambling or poetry or love or (I suppose) satanism. But the one
                certainty is that the traitor is always and everywhere present in evil and
                good alike, and all is horrible in the end."

                "There is a way to delight in horror," Gregory said.?

                === end quote ===

                There is a quite widespread perception that Satanism was invented by Anton la
                Vey in the 1960s, yet here is Williams using the term in a book written 30-40
                years earlier.

                The Wikipedia article on Satanism

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

                speaks of it is a religion, but while it may be possible to speak of post-
                LaVeyan Satanism as a religion, before that I believe it was thought of more
                in terms of this conversation, and it may have been entertained by some
                people in the ritual magic circles that Williams came into contact with.

                What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think
                it is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase
                "s") was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven",
                and that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be
                described, at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

                What is perhaps more debatable is whether Williams thought of satanism in the
                way Lionel Rackstraw describes it -- as "ordinary religion disguised" -- in
                other words, whether for Williams "satanism" was not a religion per se, but a
                kind of Christian deviation, a heresy.

                I originally posted this in the neo-Inklings forum, and did not at first post it here because I feared it might get bogged
                down in discussions of whether magic is "real" or not. My concern is rather
                what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought of "satanism".

                There is more in a blog post here:

                http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/

                but my views have changed quite a bit since I wrote that, manly as a result
                of the Kirsty Theologo case, in which a group of members of a church youth
                group decided to sacrifice a couple of their friends to the devil so that
                they could gain power. On Thursday two of them were found guilty of
                premeditated murder. I still think that is is related to Williams's "clerk at
                the brothel" comments, though I'm having to remix my hypothesis.

                --
                Steve Hayes
                E-mail: shayes@...
                Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/litmain.htm
                http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw


              • Isaac Chenchiah
                Could it be that you meant to say Religion? A squishy word at *worst* ? At best it is not squishy at all. On the other hand many words become squishy at
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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                  Could it be that you meant to say "Religion? A squishy word at *worst*"? At best it is not squishy at all. On the other hand many words become squishy at worst, "love" and "faith" being two common examples.

                  As for CW and lust for power, to be fair all of us struggle with this albeit in different guises. It might even be "the last idolatry". One way to understand martyrdom is that a martyr overcomes this final temptation and choses truth over power.

                  Isaac


                  On 9 November 2013 19:04, Ahnemann <ahnemann@...> wrote:
                   

                  Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn't above that at times in his life. Religion? A squishy word at best. I've known people who practiced a 'religion' of owning a Porsche. 
                  AJA

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Nov 9, 2013, at 12:50 PM, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@...> wrote:

                   

                  A quote from "War in heaven", followed by a question:

                  Gregory turned his head to see better the young face from which this summary
                  of life issued. He felt perplexed and uncertain; he had expected a door and
                  found an iron barrier.

                  "But," he said doubtfully, "had Judas himself no delight? There is an old
                  story that there is rapture in the worship of treachery and malice and
                  cruelty and sin."

                  "Pooh," Lionel said contemptuously; "it is the ordinary religion disguised;
                  it is the church-going clerk's religion. Satanism is the clerk at the
                  brothel. Audacious little middleclass cock-sparrow!"

                  "You are talking wildly," Gregory said a little angrily. "I have met people
                  who have made me sure that there is a rapture of iniquity."

                  "There is a rapture of anything, if you come to that," Lionel answered;
                  "drink or gambling or poetry or love or (I suppose) satanism. But the one
                  certainty is that the traitor is always and everywhere present in evil and
                  good alike, and all is horrible in the end."

                  "There is a way to delight in horror," Gregory said.?

                  === end quote ===

                  There is a quite widespread perception that Satanism was invented by Anton la
                  Vey in the 1960s, yet here is Williams using the term in a book written 30-40
                  years earlier.

                  The Wikipedia article on Satanism

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

                  speaks of it is a religion, but while it may be possible to speak of post-
                  LaVeyan Satanism as a religion, before that I believe it was thought of more
                  in terms of this conversation, and it may have been entertained by some
                  people in the ritual magic circles that Williams came into contact with.

                  What I am concerned to explore is how Williams understood the term. I think
                  it is far to say that Williams's understand of satanism (with a lowercase
                  "s") was embodied in the character of Gregory Persimmons in "War in heaven",
                  and that the way Persimmons treated Adrian Rackstraw might nowadays be
                  described, at least in some circles, as "Satanic ritual abuse".

                  What is perhaps more debatable is whether Williams thought of satanism in the
                  way Lionel Rackstraw describes it -- as "ordinary religion disguised" -- in
                  other words, whether for Williams "satanism" was not a religion per se, but a
                  kind of Christian deviation, a heresy.

                  I originally posted this in the neo-Inklings forum, and did not at first post it here because I feared it might get bogged
                  down in discussions of whether magic is "real" or not. My concern is rather
                  what Williams (and perhaps his contemporaries) thought of "satanism".

                  There is more in a blog post here:

                  http://khanya.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/satanism-and-satanic-ritual-abuse/

                  but my views have changed quite a bit since I wrote that, manly as a result
                  of the Kirsty Theologo case, in which a group of members of a church youth
                  group decided to sacrifice a couple of their friends to the devil so that
                  they could gain power. On Thursday two of them were found guilty of
                  premeditated murder. I still think that is is related to Williams's "clerk at
                  the brothel" comments, though I'm having to remix my hypothesis.

                  --
                  Steve Hayes
                  E-mail: shayes@...
                  Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/litmain.htm
                  http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw





                  --
                  When You heal, everything comes back to life, even in the past, and You give fruits to the one who has not known how to flower. - Maurice Blondel

                  Isaac Vikram Chenchiah
                  iChenchiah@...
                  Mobile: ++ 44 7962 444 713
                • Steve Hayes
                  ... My concerns is not so much whether Williams himself had a lust for power as whether he knew what satanism was. There seems to be quite a strong movement
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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                    On 9 Nov 2013 at 14:04, Ahnemann wrote:

                    > Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn't above that at times in his life.
                    > Religion? A squishy word at best. I've known people who practiced a 'religion'
                    > of owning a Porsche. AJA

                    My concerns is not so much whether Williams himself had a lust for power as
                    whether he knew what satanism was.

                    There seems to be quite a strong movement among scholars of religion to say
                    that "Satanic Ritual Abuse" is purely a media fabrication and a "moral
                    panic".

                    What Williams describes in "War in heaven" is undoubtedly satanic ritual
                    abuse, and of course it is a work of fiction. Was he simply making up things,
                    so that nothing of that sort had ever occurred?

                    People write fiction about all sorts of things. I've read fiction about
                    aerial combat between fighter aircraft -- but just because that is fiction
                    does not mean that no aerial combat has ever taken place. Similarly, just
                    because Persimmons is a fictional character does not mean that the kind of
                    things Williams said he did have never taken place, anywhere.


                    --
                    Steve Hayes
                    E-mail: shayes@...
                    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/litmain.htm
                    http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
                  • Graham Darling
                    The case of Gilles de Rais is quite well documented - Williams refers to it himself in his book Witchcraft . He was a companion-in-arms to Joan of Arc, who
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 9, 2013
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                      The case of Gilles de Rais is quite well documented - Williams refers to
                      it himself in his book "Witchcraft". He was a companion-in-arms to Joan
                      of Arc, who eventually drifted over to the Dark Side. Makes for some
                      pretty nasty reading.

                      On 11/9/2013, 20:19 , Steve Hayes wrote:
                      > On 9 Nov 2013 at 14:04, Ahnemann wrote:
                      >
                      >> Satanism? A lust for power. CW wasn't above that at times in his life.
                      >> Religion? A squishy word at best. I've known people who practiced a 'religion'
                      >> of owning a Porsche. AJA
                      >
                      > My concerns is not so much whether Williams himself had a lust for power as
                      > whether he knew what satanism was.
                      >
                      > There seems to be quite a strong movement among scholars of religion to say
                      > that "Satanic Ritual Abuse" is purely a media fabrication and a "moral
                      > panic".
                      >
                      > What Williams describes in "War in heaven" is undoubtedly satanic ritual
                      > abuse, and of course it is a work of fiction. Was he simply making up things,
                      > so that nothing of that sort had ever occurred?
                      >
                      > People write fiction about all sorts of things. I've read fiction about
                      > aerial combat between fighter aircraft -- but just because that is fiction
                      > does not mean that no aerial combat has ever taken place. Similarly, just
                      > because Persimmons is a fictional character does not mean that the kind of
                      > things Williams said he did have never taken place, anywhere.

                      -GD

                      --

                      Mr. Graham Darling, PhD
                      1007-D Gilmore Ave.
                      Burnaby, BC V5C 4S4
                      Canada

                      Phone 778-836-7122
                      Email darlingg@...
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