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Re: [eldil] Digest Number 139

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  • Steve Hayes
    ... I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to the
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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      On 27 Oct 2011 at 9:06, Carolyn Janson wrote:

      > He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages.
      > I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense.

      I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to
      Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to
      the reader, but not necessarily intended by the writer.

      I'm assuming that his allegories of love in that book are more direct, and
      intended by the writer, or would that be wrong.

      The kind he referred to in his letter to Tolkien I know well -- for example,
      I used to refer to Maugrim in letters to a friend who was banned in South
      Africa when I was in England, treating Maugrim (from "The lion, the witch and
      the wardrobe") as an allegory for the South African Security police, which
      would surely not have been intended by Lewis, but was an incipient allegory
      suggested to the readers. Similarly we saw the White Witch as an allegory of
      the then South African government, and the statues in her castle as
      allegories of those banned and detained without trial.


      --
      Steve Hayes
      E-mail: shayes@...
      Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
      Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
      Fax: 086-548-2525
    • Carolyn Janson
      There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite different from
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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        There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite different from the allegories you are thinking of. For instance, in the beginning of the second chapter, he says this: "...you can start with an immaterial fact, such as the passions which you actually experience, and can then invent visibilia to express them......... this is allegory, and it is with this alone that we have to deal." Like Erasmus's In Praise of Folly, which came to mind as i was reading this excerpt. Though of course, the courtly love allegory is in praise of that very specific form of love.

        Carolyn

        On 27/10/2011 09:36, Steve Hayes wrote:
        On 27 Oct 2011 at 9:06, Carolyn Janson wrote:
        
        
        He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages. 
        I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense.
        
        I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to 
        Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to 
        the reader, but not necessarily intended by the writer. 
        
        I'm assuming that his allegories of love in that book are more direct, and 
        intended by the writer, or would that be wrong. 
        
        The kind he referred to in his letter to Tolkien I know well -- for example, 
        I used to refer to Maugrim in letters to a friend who was banned in South 
        Africa when I was in England, treating Maugrim (from "The lion, the witch and 
        the wardrobe") as an allegory for the South African Security police, which 
        would surely not have been intended by Lewis, but was an incipient allegory 
        suggested to the readers. Similarly we saw the White Witch as an allegory of 
        the then South African government, and the statues in her castle as 
        allegories of those banned and detained without trial. 
        
        
        

        -- 
        Death is not extinguishing the light; it is extinguishing
         the lamp because the dawn has come.
        			Rabindranath Tagore
      • Steve Hayes
        ... Perhaps Lewis was quite postmodern about it. He clearly distinguishes between writerly and readerly allegories. Since the allegory of love is a study
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 27, 2011
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          On 27 Oct 2011 at 13:47, Carolyn Janson wrote:

          > There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly
          > love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite
          > different from the allegories you are thinking of. For instance, in the
          > beginning of the second chapter, he says this: "...you can start with an
          > immaterial fact, such as the passions which you actually experience, and can
          > then invent /visibilia /to express them......... this is allegory, and it is
          > with this alone that we have to deal." Like Erasmus's In Praise of Folly,
          > which came to mind as i was reading this excerpt. Though of course, the
          > courtly love allegory is in praise of that very specific form of love.

          Perhaps Lewis was quite "postmodern" about it. He clearly distinguishes
          between "writerly" and "readerly" allegories. Since the allegory of love is a
          study of allegory, rather than an allegory itself, it seems that it was
          mostly the second kind that people have found in his writing, and that he
          found in Tolkien's. Tolkien disliked allegory (I wonder if he read "The
          Faerie Queen" or "Animal Farm"), so I wonder what he would have made of
          Lewis's comment. Perhaps he didn't mind the "readerly" kind.




          --
          Steve Hayes
          E-mail: shayes@...
          Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
          Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
          Fax: 086-548-2525
        • Richard Lyman
          Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death and Purgatory in Leaf by Niggle ,  there is certianly a very convincing imitatio
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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            Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death and Purgatory in "Leaf by Niggle",  there is certianly a very convincing imitatio of one.
            Lewis's "The Pilgrim's Regress" is of course quite openoy allegorical.
            Richard Sturch.
          • Steve Hayes
            ... I don t think I ve read The pilgrim s regress -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog:
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 31, 2011
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              On 29 Oct 2011 at 15:45, Richard Lyman wrote:

              > Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death
              > and Purgatory in "Leaf by Niggle",  there is certianly a very convincing
              > imitatio of one. Lewis's "The Pilgrim's Regress" is of course quite openoy
              > allegorical.

              I don't think I've read "The pilgrim's regress"


              --
              Steve Hayes
              E-mail: shayes@...
              Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
              Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
              Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
              Fax: 086-548-2525
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