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Re: [eldil] Digest Number 139

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  • Carolyn Janson
    He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages. I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense. Carolyn ... --
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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      He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages.
      I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense.

      Carolyn

      On 27/10/2011 04:13, Steve Hayes wrote:
      > On 26 Oct 2011 at 15:54, Richard Lyman wrote:
      >
      >> Indeed yes. Of course, Lewis liked allegory all rigyht - and wrote it!
      > I think he wrote something called an allegory of love, or something like
      > that, but I haven't read it. If I had web access I might try to look it up,
      > but I don't, so I won't.,
      >
      >

      --
      Death is not extinguishing the light; it is extinguishing
      the lamp because the dawn has come.
      Rabindranath Tagore
    • Dan Drake
      ... He wrote The Allegory of Love , which is subtitled A Study in Medieval(*) Tradition . It s about, and not an example of. It looked good when I read it or
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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        On Oct 26, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:

        > On 26 Oct 2011 at 15:54, Richard Lyman wrote:
        >
        >> Indeed yes. Of course, Lewis liked allegory all rigyht - and wrote
        >> it!
        >
        > I think he wrote something called an allegory of love, or something
        > like
        > that, but I haven't read it. If I had web access I might try to look
        > it up,
        > but I don't, so I won't.,
        >


        He wrote "The Allegory of Love", which is subtitled "A Study in
        Medieval(*) Tradition". It's about, and not an example of. It looked
        good when I read it or most of it, but it's not in my line at all.

        BTW it was a pleasure to see his comment on myth and allegory in the
        posting; that far into lit-crit, I can follow him.


        NB: TItle was copied from the Wikipedia entry, which I checked to make
        sure I hadn't got things totally wrong. Mentioning this to forestall
        any British-based comments on the failure to pay traditional homage to
        the ghosts of departed classical diphthongs. I don't know, however,
        what to think of the Amazon.com entry on the *Oxford* paperback.

        Further up etc: I didn't expect Google to find me an IMDB entry: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1385732/

        --
        Dan Drake
        dd@...
        http://www.dandrake.com/index.html
      • Steve Hayes
        ... I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to the
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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          On 27 Oct 2011 at 9:06, Carolyn Janson wrote:

          > He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages.
          > I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense.

          I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to
          Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to
          the reader, but not necessarily intended by the writer.

          I'm assuming that his allegories of love in that book are more direct, and
          intended by the writer, or would that be wrong.

          The kind he referred to in his letter to Tolkien I know well -- for example,
          I used to refer to Maugrim in letters to a friend who was banned in South
          Africa when I was in England, treating Maugrim (from "The lion, the witch and
          the wardrobe") as an allegory for the South African Security police, which
          would surely not have been intended by Lewis, but was an incipient allegory
          suggested to the readers. Similarly we saw the White Witch as an allegory of
          the then South African government, and the statues in her castle as
          allegories of those banned and detained without trial.


          --
          Steve Hayes
          E-mail: shayes@...
          Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
          Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
          Fax: 086-548-2525
        • Carolyn Janson
          There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite different from
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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            There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite different from the allegories you are thinking of. For instance, in the beginning of the second chapter, he says this: "...you can start with an immaterial fact, such as the passions which you actually experience, and can then invent visibilia to express them......... this is allegory, and it is with this alone that we have to deal." Like Erasmus's In Praise of Folly, which came to mind as i was reading this excerpt. Though of course, the courtly love allegory is in praise of that very specific form of love.

            Carolyn

            On 27/10/2011 09:36, Steve Hayes wrote:
            On 27 Oct 2011 at 9:06, Carolyn Janson wrote:
            
            
            He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages. 
            I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense.
            
            I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to 
            Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to 
            the reader, but not necessarily intended by the writer. 
            
            I'm assuming that his allegories of love in that book are more direct, and 
            intended by the writer, or would that be wrong. 
            
            The kind he referred to in his letter to Tolkien I know well -- for example, 
            I used to refer to Maugrim in letters to a friend who was banned in South 
            Africa when I was in England, treating Maugrim (from "The lion, the witch and 
            the wardrobe") as an allegory for the South African Security police, which 
            would surely not have been intended by Lewis, but was an incipient allegory 
            suggested to the readers. Similarly we saw the White Witch as an allegory of 
            the then South African government, and the statues in her castle as 
            allegories of those banned and detained without trial. 
            
            
            

            -- 
            Death is not extinguishing the light; it is extinguishing
             the lamp because the dawn has come.
            			Rabindranath Tagore
          • Steve Hayes
            ... Perhaps Lewis was quite postmodern about it. He clearly distinguishes between writerly and readerly allegories. Since the allegory of love is a study
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 27, 2011
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              On 27 Oct 2011 at 13:47, Carolyn Janson wrote:

              > There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly
              > love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite
              > different from the allegories you are thinking of. For instance, in the
              > beginning of the second chapter, he says this: "...you can start with an
              > immaterial fact, such as the passions which you actually experience, and can
              > then invent /visibilia /to express them......... this is allegory, and it is
              > with this alone that we have to deal." Like Erasmus's In Praise of Folly,
              > which came to mind as i was reading this excerpt. Though of course, the
              > courtly love allegory is in praise of that very specific form of love.

              Perhaps Lewis was quite "postmodern" about it. He clearly distinguishes
              between "writerly" and "readerly" allegories. Since the allegory of love is a
              study of allegory, rather than an allegory itself, it seems that it was
              mostly the second kind that people have found in his writing, and that he
              found in Tolkien's. Tolkien disliked allegory (I wonder if he read "The
              Faerie Queen" or "Animal Farm"), so I wonder what he would have made of
              Lewis's comment. Perhaps he didn't mind the "readerly" kind.




              --
              Steve Hayes
              E-mail: shayes@...
              Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
              Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
              Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
              Fax: 086-548-2525
            • Richard Lyman
              Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death and Purgatory in Leaf by Niggle ,  there is certianly a very convincing imitatio
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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                Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death and Purgatory in "Leaf by Niggle",  there is certianly a very convincing imitatio of one.
                Lewis's "The Pilgrim's Regress" is of course quite openoy allegorical.
                Richard Sturch.
              • Steve Hayes
                ... I don t think I ve read The pilgrim s regress -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog:
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 31, 2011
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                  On 29 Oct 2011 at 15:45, Richard Lyman wrote:

                  > Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death
                  > and Purgatory in "Leaf by Niggle",  there is certianly a very convincing
                  > imitatio of one. Lewis's "The Pilgrim's Regress" is of course quite openoy
                  > allegorical.

                  I don't think I've read "The pilgrim's regress"


                  --
                  Steve Hayes
                  E-mail: shayes@...
                  Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
                  Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
                  Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                  Fax: 086-548-2525
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