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Re: [eldil] Digest Number 139

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  • Richard Lyman
    Indeed yes. Of course, Lewis liked allegory all rigyht - and wrote it! Richard Sturch/ ________________________________ From: eldil@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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      Indeed yes. Of course, Lewis liked allegory all rigyht - and wrote it!
      Richard Sturch/

      From: "eldil@yahoogroups.com" <eldil@yahoogroups.com>
      To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2011, 13:52
      Subject: [eldil] Digest Number 139

      NeoInklings

      Messages In This Digest (1 Message)

      1.
      C.S. Lewis on allegory From: Steve Hayes

      Message

      1.

      C.S. Lewis on allegory

      Posted by: "Steve Hayes" hayesstw@...   hayesstw

      Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:05 pm (PDT)



      C.S. Lewis and allegory.
      Source: Carpenter 1978:30.
      Lewis wrote to Tolkien on 7 December 1929, after reading
      Tolkien's poem on Beren and Luthien, "The two things that come
      out clearly are the sense of reality in the background and the
      mythical value: the essence of a myth being that it should
      have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest
      incipient allegories to the reader."

      --
      Steve Hayes
      E-mail: shayes@dunelm. org.uk
      Web: http://hayesstw. tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
      Blog: http://khanya. wordpress. com
      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
      Fax: 086-548-2525

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    • Steve Hayes
      ... I think he wrote something called an allegory of love, or something like that, but I haven t read it. If I had web access I might try to look it up, but I
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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        On 26 Oct 2011 at 15:54, Richard Lyman wrote:

        > Indeed yes. Of course, Lewis liked allegory all rigyht - and wrote it!

        I think he wrote something called an allegory of love, or something like
        that, but I haven't read it. If I had web access I might try to look it up,
        but I don't, so I won't.,


        --
        Steve Hayes
        E-mail: shayes@...
        Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
        Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
        Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
        Fax: 086-548-2525
      • Carolyn Janson
        He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages. I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense. Carolyn ... --
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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          He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages.
          I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense.

          Carolyn

          On 27/10/2011 04:13, Steve Hayes wrote:
          > On 26 Oct 2011 at 15:54, Richard Lyman wrote:
          >
          >> Indeed yes. Of course, Lewis liked allegory all rigyht - and wrote it!
          > I think he wrote something called an allegory of love, or something like
          > that, but I haven't read it. If I had web access I might try to look it up,
          > but I don't, so I won't.,
          >
          >

          --
          Death is not extinguishing the light; it is extinguishing
          the lamp because the dawn has come.
          Rabindranath Tagore
        • Dan Drake
          ... He wrote The Allegory of Love , which is subtitled A Study in Medieval(*) Tradition . It s about, and not an example of. It looked good when I read it or
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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            On Oct 26, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:

            > On 26 Oct 2011 at 15:54, Richard Lyman wrote:
            >
            >> Indeed yes. Of course, Lewis liked allegory all rigyht - and wrote
            >> it!
            >
            > I think he wrote something called an allegory of love, or something
            > like
            > that, but I haven't read it. If I had web access I might try to look
            > it up,
            > but I don't, so I won't.,
            >


            He wrote "The Allegory of Love", which is subtitled "A Study in
            Medieval(*) Tradition". It's about, and not an example of. It looked
            good when I read it or most of it, but it's not in my line at all.

            BTW it was a pleasure to see his comment on myth and allegory in the
            posting; that far into lit-crit, I can follow him.


            NB: TItle was copied from the Wikipedia entry, which I checked to make
            sure I hadn't got things totally wrong. Mentioning this to forestall
            any British-based comments on the failure to pay traditional homage to
            the ghosts of departed classical diphthongs. I don't know, however,
            what to think of the Amazon.com entry on the *Oxford* paperback.

            Further up etc: I didn't expect Google to find me an IMDB entry: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1385732/

            --
            Dan Drake
            dd@...
            http://www.dandrake.com/index.html
          • Steve Hayes
            ... I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to the
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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              On 27 Oct 2011 at 9:06, Carolyn Janson wrote:

              > He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages.
              > I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense.

              I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to
              Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to
              the reader, but not necessarily intended by the writer.

              I'm assuming that his allegories of love in that book are more direct, and
              intended by the writer, or would that be wrong.

              The kind he referred to in his letter to Tolkien I know well -- for example,
              I used to refer to Maugrim in letters to a friend who was banned in South
              Africa when I was in England, treating Maugrim (from "The lion, the witch and
              the wardrobe") as an allegory for the South African Security police, which
              would surely not have been intended by Lewis, but was an incipient allegory
              suggested to the readers. Similarly we saw the White Witch as an allegory of
              the then South African government, and the statues in her castle as
              allegories of those banned and detained without trial.


              --
              Steve Hayes
              E-mail: shayes@...
              Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
              Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
              Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
              Fax: 086-548-2525
            • Carolyn Janson
              There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite different from
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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                There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite different from the allegories you are thinking of. For instance, in the beginning of the second chapter, he says this: "...you can start with an immaterial fact, such as the passions which you actually experience, and can then invent visibilia to express them......... this is allegory, and it is with this alone that we have to deal." Like Erasmus's In Praise of Folly, which came to mind as i was reading this excerpt. Though of course, the courtly love allegory is in praise of that very specific form of love.

                Carolyn

                On 27/10/2011 09:36, Steve Hayes wrote:
                On 27 Oct 2011 at 9:06, Carolyn Janson wrote:
                
                
                He did. It is a book about the courtly love customs of the Middle Ages. 
                I have it, but have not read it all; it is scholarly and quite dense.
                
                I wonder what sort of his allegories he refers to there. In his letter to 
                Tolkien about Beren & Luthien he refers to incipient allegories suggested to 
                the reader, but not necessarily intended by the writer. 
                
                I'm assuming that his allegories of love in that book are more direct, and 
                intended by the writer, or would that be wrong. 
                
                The kind he referred to in his letter to Tolkien I know well -- for example, 
                I used to refer to Maugrim in letters to a friend who was banned in South 
                Africa when I was in England, treating Maugrim (from "The lion, the witch and 
                the wardrobe") as an allegory for the South African Security police, which 
                would surely not have been intended by Lewis, but was an incipient allegory 
                suggested to the readers. Similarly we saw the White Witch as an allegory of 
                the then South African government, and the statues in her castle as 
                allegories of those banned and detained without trial. 
                
                
                

                -- 
                Death is not extinguishing the light; it is extinguishing
                 the lamp because the dawn has come.
                			Rabindranath Tagore
              • Steve Hayes
                ... Perhaps Lewis was quite postmodern about it. He clearly distinguishes between writerly and readerly allegories. Since the allegory of love is a study
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 27, 2011
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                  On 27 Oct 2011 at 13:47, Carolyn Janson wrote:

                  > There is just one allegory in the book; it is the sentiment of courtly
                  > love, expressed by means of allegorical poems.. So it probably is quite
                  > different from the allegories you are thinking of. For instance, in the
                  > beginning of the second chapter, he says this: "...you can start with an
                  > immaterial fact, such as the passions which you actually experience, and can
                  > then invent /visibilia /to express them......... this is allegory, and it is
                  > with this alone that we have to deal." Like Erasmus's In Praise of Folly,
                  > which came to mind as i was reading this excerpt. Though of course, the
                  > courtly love allegory is in praise of that very specific form of love.

                  Perhaps Lewis was quite "postmodern" about it. He clearly distinguishes
                  between "writerly" and "readerly" allegories. Since the allegory of love is a
                  study of allegory, rather than an allegory itself, it seems that it was
                  mostly the second kind that people have found in his writing, and that he
                  found in Tolkien's. Tolkien disliked allegory (I wonder if he read "The
                  Faerie Queen" or "Animal Farm"), so I wonder what he would have made of
                  Lewis's comment. Perhaps he didn't mind the "readerly" kind.




                  --
                  Steve Hayes
                  E-mail: shayes@...
                  Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
                  Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
                  Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                  Fax: 086-548-2525
                • Richard Lyman
                  Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death and Purgatory in Leaf by Niggle ,  there is certianly a very convincing imitatio
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 29, 2011
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                    Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death and Purgatory in "Leaf by Niggle",  there is certianly a very convincing imitatio of one.
                    Lewis's "The Pilgrim's Regress" is of course quite openoy allegorical.
                    Richard Sturch.
                  • Steve Hayes
                    ... I don t think I ve read The pilgrim s regress -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog:
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 31, 2011
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                      On 29 Oct 2011 at 15:45, Richard Lyman wrote:

                      > Tolkien may have duisliked allegory, but if there is no allegory about Death
                      > and Purgatory in "Leaf by Niggle",  there is certianly a very convincing
                      > imitatio of one. Lewis's "The Pilgrim's Regress" is of course quite openoy
                      > allegorical.

                      I don't think I've read "The pilgrim's regress"


                      --
                      Steve Hayes
                      E-mail: shayes@...
                      Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr)
                      Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
                      Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
                      Fax: 086-548-2525
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