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RE: theology of the Imagination?? RE: [eldil] Re: Prester John

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  • Ann Ahnemann
    From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Beussink Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:40 PM To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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      From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Beussink
      Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:40 PM
      To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: theology of the Imagination?? RE: [eldil] Re: Prester John

       

       

      >I'd also be

      interested in anything you have to say about imagination. 

      My simplest answer is that imagination is our way of processing spiritual realities.

       My own meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on "Reason and Imagination in C. S. Lewis: A Study of Till We Have Faces"

      I agree.  CSL is very good on the subject.  Weight of Glory, and other works- on the images/imagination good vs. evil conundrum.  He was all for reason, as you know.  He lists in WoG four 'tests' for moral judgment: facts, intuition, reasoning, authority. (WCG 58) Though moral judgment is not your main subject, I can't think how it wouldn't come into the discussion.  Imagination is not always to be trusted as wise people know.

      Further, I think you would be on an informative track with Coleridge.  He was living in the age of psychology which informs our subject in a positive way I believe, if one is looking toward a unified theory (if such exists) of perception.  That said, Coleridge as many others, Blake, could possibly run away with himself.

      Barfield was good with his, "...all spiritual facts are represented by natural symbols" quoted from Emerson's _Nature, Poetic Diction 92)  I do believe that Barfield's dunk into theosophy led him afield of the only true Unity of Creation:  the Creator. But I'm biased.  Unity for me is Christ Jesus- and my journey is therefore not to end in theory. :)

      BTW I particularly like in PD Barfield's Chapter VII The Making of Meaning.

      I would be most interested in your progress.  Much has been written; there is a lack of Theology of Imagination per se.

      Blessings,

      AJA

       

    • Malcolm
      Yes Coleridge is a key figure because he came eventually to a deeply rooted trinitarian theology and his whole philosophy starts and ends there. I think What
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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        Yes Coleridge is a key figure because he came eventually to a deeply rooted trinitarian theology and his whole philosophy starts and ends there. I think What Coleridge thought is Barfield's best book after PD precisely because sticking to coleridge him stops him falling into various anthroposophical abysses. Coleridge also finds Unity in christ binding together earth and heaven but it is as he would say unity in multeity (his word) Christ unifies all things but he also gives and gives back to all things their glorious particularity. I have put the introduction to FHP and also the chapter on Coleridge into the writings folder in this group. hope that worked
        M


        --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, Ann Ahnemann <ahnemann@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > Andrew Beussink
        > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:40 PM
        > To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: theology of the Imagination?? RE: [eldil] Re: Prester John
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >I'd also be interested in anything you have to say about imagination.
        >
        > My simplest answer is that imagination is our way of processing spiritual
        > realities.
        >
        > My own meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on
        > "Reason and Imagination in C. S. Lewis: A Study of Till We Have Faces"
        >
        > I agree. CSL is very good on the subject. Weight of Glory, and other
        > works- on the images/imagination good vs. evil conundrum. He was all for
        > reason, as you know. He lists in WoG four 'tests' for moral judgment:
        > facts, intuition, reasoning, authority. (WCG 58) Though moral judgment is
        > not your main subject, I can't think how it wouldn't come into the
        > discussion. Imagination is not always to be trusted as wise people know.
        >
        > Further, I think you would be on an informative track with Coleridge. He
        > was living in the age of psychology which informs our subject in a positive
        > way I believe, if one is looking toward a unified theory (if such exists) of
        > perception. That said, Coleridge as many others, Blake, could possibly run
        > away with himself.
        >
        > Barfield was good with his, "...all spiritual facts are represented by
        > natural symbols" quoted from Emerson's _Nature, Poetic Diction 92) I do
        > believe that Barfield's dunk into theosophy led him afield of the only true
        > Unity of Creation: the Creator. But I'm biased. Unity for me is Christ
        > Jesus- and my journey is therefore not to end in theory. :)
        >
        > BTW I particularly like in PD Barfield's Chapter VII The Making of Meaning.
        >
        > I would be most interested in your progress. Much has been written; there
        > is a lack of Theology of Imagination per se.
        >
        > Blessings,
        >
        > AJA
        >
      • Steve Hayes
        ... I am reminded of the Magnificat: He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. And then there is Gen 6:5: And the LORD saw that the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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          On 21 Jan 2010 at 11:39, Andrew Beussink wrote:

          > I'd also be interested in anything you have to say about imagination. My own
          > meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on "Reason and
          > Imagination in C. S. Lewis: A Study of Till We Have Faces" as well as some of
          > Barfield's works. I was thinking that I'd check out his "What Coleridge
          > Thought" next, since, if I remember correctly, Coleridge was a large influence
          > on Barfield's ideas relating to imagination. Barfield also said that
          > imagination can be misused for evil: "Imagination is not, as some poets have
          > thought, simply synonymous with good. It may be either good or evil. As long
          > as art remained primarily mimetic, the evil which imagination could do was
          > limited by nature. Again, as long as it was treated as an amusement, the evil
          > which it could do was limited in scope. But in an age when the connection
          > between imagination and figuration [formation of phenomena from sensations...
          > something like that] is beginning to be dimly realized, when the fact of the
          > directionally creator relation is beginning to breath through into
          > consciousness, both the good and the evil latent in the working of imagination
          > begin to appear unlimited."

          I am reminded of the Magnificat: He has scattered the proud in the
          imagination of their hearts.

          And then there is Gen 6:5: And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was
          great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
          was only evil continually.


          --
          Steve Hayes
          E-mail: shayes@...
          Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
          Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
          Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
          Fax: 086-548-2525
        • Steve Hayes
          ... I m not sure about that. Quite a lot has been written about it, for example: http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2 (I hope the link works) -- Steve Hayes E-mail:
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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            On 21 Jan 2010 at 13:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:

            > I would be most interested in your progress. Much has been written; there is
            > a lack of Theology of Imagination per se.

            I'm not sure about that.

            Quite a lot has been written about it, for example:

            http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2

            (I hope the link works)


            --
            Steve Hayes
            E-mail: shayes@...
            Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
            http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
          • Ann Ahnemann
            From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:41 PM To: eldil@yahoogroups.com Subject:
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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              From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes
              Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:41 PM
              To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: theology of the Imagination?? RE: [eldil] Re: Prester John

               

               

              On 21 Jan 2010 at 13:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:

              > I would be most interested in your progress. Much has been written; there is
              > a lack of Theology of Imagination per se.

              I'm not sure about that.

              Quite a lot has been written about it, for example:

              http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2

              (I hope the link works)

              Thanks, Steve,

              The link took me to the book, Philokalia.  Tell me something about it.  And I should have known Eastern Orthodox has much to say on the subject.  :))  EO has been a veritable fountain of spiritual nourishment.

              AJA




              _,___

            • Steve Hayes
              ... The Philokalia is a collection of spiritual writings from various periods made by Makarios of Corinth and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain a couple of
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
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                On 21 Jan 2010 at 21:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:

                > http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2
                >
                > (I hope the link works)
                >
                > Thanks, Steve,
                >
                > The link took me to the book, Philokalia. Tell me something about it. And I
                > should have known Eastern Orthodox has much to say on the subject. :)) EO has
                > been a veritable fountain of spiritual nourishment.

                The Philokalia is a collection of spiritual writings from various periods
                made by Makarios of Corinth and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain a couple of
                hundred years ago. It was mainly intended for the guidance of monks, but
                there's a lot that Christians living in the world can find useful too.

                There's quite a lot in it about good and bad uses of the imagination
                (dianoia).

                .


                --
                Steve Hayes
                E-mail: shayes@...
                Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
              • Malcolm
                I was introduced to the Philokalia by my college chaplain when I became a Christian in 1979, it is a great source of wisdom, spiritual insight and renewal.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
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                  I was introduced to the Philokalia by my college chaplain when I became a Christian in 1979, it is a great source of wisdom, spiritual insight and renewal. Also good for humility, I have only to turn a few pages to be reminded how far I am from the real spiritual heights
                  M

                  --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On 21 Jan 2010 at 21:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:
                  >
                  > > http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2
                  > >
                  > > (I hope the link works)
                  > >
                  > > Thanks, Steve,
                  > >
                  > > The link took me to the book, Philokalia. Tell me something about it. And I
                  > > should have known Eastern Orthodox has much to say on the subject. :)) EO has
                  > > been a veritable fountain of spiritual nourishment.
                  >
                  > The Philokalia is a collection of spiritual writings from various periods
                  > made by Makarios of Corinth and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain a couple of
                  > hundred years ago. It was mainly intended for the guidance of monks, but
                  > there's a lot that Christians living in the world can find useful too.
                  >
                  > There's quite a lot in it about good and bad uses of the imagination
                  > (dianoia).
                  >
                  > .
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Steve Hayes
                  > E-mail: shayes@...
                  > Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                  > http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
                  >
                • Malcolm
                  Just connecting with theology and imagination from another angle, enacting poetic imagination rather than writing about it, Steve has suggested I post a link
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 27, 2010
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                    Just connecting with theology and imagination from another angle, enacting poetic imagination rather than writing about it, Steve has suggested I post a link to a blog post in which I have posted a new sequence of four sonnets moving through a church from font to altar. The link is now duly poosted on this groups links page but heres a taster, the first (font) sonnet to see if its the kind of think you want to follow, this sonnet arises from the context of an Easter Baptism and also describes the fifteenth century 'angel' font in the church I serve:

                    The Font

                    Old stone angels hold aloft the font
                    A wide womb, floating on the breath of God,
                    Feathered with seraph wings, lit with the swift
                    Bright lightening of praise, with thunder over-spread,
                    And under-girded with their unheard song,
                    Calling through water, fire, darkness, pain,
                    Calling us to the life for which we long,
                    Yearning to bring us to our birth again.

                    Again the breath of God is on the waters
                    In whose reflecting face our candles shine,
                    Again he draws from death the sons and daughters
                    For whom he bid the elements combine,
                    As old stone angels round a font today
                    Become the ones who roll the stone away.

                    Malcolm

                    --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, "Malcolm" <malcolmguite@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I was introduced to the Philokalia by my college chaplain when I became a Christian in 1979, it is a great source of wisdom, spiritual insight and renewal. Also good for humility, I have only to turn a few pages to be reminded how far I am from the real spiritual heights
                    > M
                    >
                    > --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > On 21 Jan 2010 at 21:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2
                    > > >
                    > > > (I hope the link works)
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks, Steve,
                    > > >
                    > > > The link took me to the book, Philokalia. Tell me something about it. And I
                    > > > should have known Eastern Orthodox has much to say on the subject. :)) EO has
                    > > > been a veritable fountain of spiritual nourishment.
                    > >
                    > > The Philokalia is a collection of spiritual writings from various periods
                    > > made by Makarios of Corinth and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain a couple of
                    > > hundred years ago. It was mainly intended for the guidance of monks, but
                    > > there's a lot that Christians living in the world can find useful too.
                    > >
                    > > There's quite a lot in it about good and bad uses of the imagination
                    > > (dianoia).
                    > >
                    > > .
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Steve Hayes
                    > > E-mail: shayes@
                    > > Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                    > > http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
                    > >
                    >
                  • Steve Hayes
                    ... Malcolm, I think all four were very good. I ve never been a great fan of the sonnet format, but after reading yours, i almost changed my mind. I ll have to
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 27, 2010
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                      On 27 Jan 2010 at 16:01, Malcolm wrote:

                      > Just connecting with theology and imagination from another angle, enacting
                      > poetic imagination rather than writing about it, Steve has suggested I post a
                      > link to a blog post in which I have posted a new sequence of four sonnets
                      > moving through a church from font to altar. The link is now duly poosted on
                      > this groups links page but heres a taster, the first (font) sonnet to see if
                      > its the kind of think you want to follow, this sonnet arises from the context
                      > of an Easter Baptism and also describes the fifteenth century 'angel' font in
                      > the church I serve:

                      Malcolm,

                      I think all four were very good.

                      I've never been a great fan of the sonnet format, but after reading yours, i
                      almost changed my mind. I'll have to re-read Herbert, but I think I like
                      yours better.

                      And thanks for doing it, because the aim of this group is not just to admire
                      the Inklings, but to do what they did and share each other's writing, and
                      comment on it.


                      --
                      Steve Hayes
                      E-mail: shayes@...
                      Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                      http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
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