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Re: theology of the Imagination?? RE: [eldil] Re: Prester John

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  • Andrew Beussink
    I d also be interested in anything you have to say about imagination. My own meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on Reason and
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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      I'd also be interested in anything you have to say about imagination.  My own meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on "Reason and Imagination in C. S. Lewis: A Study of Till We Have Faces" as well as some of Barfield's works.  I was thinking that I'd check out his "What Coleridge Thought" next, since, if I remember correctly, Coleridge was a large influence on Barfield's ideas relating to imagination.  Barfield also said that imagination can be misused for evil:  "Imagination is not, as some poets have thought, simply synonymous with good.  It may be either good or evil.  As long as art remained primarily mimetic, the evil which imagination could do was limited by nature.  Again, as long as it was treated as an amusement, the evil which it could do was limited in scope.  But in an age when the connection between imagination and figuration [formation of phenomena from sensations... something like that]  is beginning to be dimly realized, when the fact of the directionally creator relation is beginning to breath through into consciousness, both the good and the evil latent in the working of imagination begin to appear unlimited."  A little of that reminds me of Tolkien's idea of subcreation, humanity's right whether "used or misused."  He was, of course, strongly influenced by Barfield's "Poetic Diction."

      Andrew
       
      On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Ann Ahnemann <ahnemann@...> wrote:
       

       

      >I am trying
      > to develop a substantial theology of Imagination and its good to be
      > reminded by Williams that even so great a gift as imagination, such
      > an essential part of the Imago Dei in us, can nevertheless, in our
      > fallen state, cast such dreadful shadows. Strong stuff!
      > Malcolm

      Yes, very strong stuff.

      What would a theology of Imagination be?  Much has been written about the 'Evidence of Aesthetic Experience' wisely accompanied with warnings, as you put it so well, which may 'cast such dreadful shadows'. I'm in mind of what has been called 'German romanticism' which devolved into the very dark in WWII for instance. Or some aspects of freemasonry, secret societies and the like which CW had some experience with.  What in a theology of Imagination would keep us on the rails, stp?  I think of D. Elton Trueblood's pointing on the subject:"We do not, in ordinary life, see things in themselves; instead we normally see them in relation to purposes to the fulfillment of which they may lead, sooner or later."  He, and others, felt that experience of the aesthetic or imagination always involves a recognition of purpose.  Discernment. I've much benefited from C. S. Lewis' affirmation that upon reading _Phantastes_ by George MacDonald his imagination was baptized.  

      And see C. S. Lewis in _God in the Doc: Bulverism"  Imagination as it may have related to Creation (276) and 'Transposition'. and a host of other places where he speaks on the subject of 'baptized' imagination. I feel in Charles Williams imagination runs amok at times- a with the character of Prester John in _War in Heaven_.  "...I am He who sent me." 

      AJA

       


      >



    • Malcolm
      Dear All Thanks for these various responses, I ve obviously touched on a subject that is close to several peoples hearts. A fuller version of what i want to
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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        Dear All
        Thanks for these various responses, I've obviously touched on a subject that is close to several peoples hearts. A fuller version of what i want to say about a theology of imagination is going to come out in a book called Faith Hope and Poetry this Autumn, I'll have a go at posting a bit of it up in the documents file if I can work it. but picking up on one or two of these threads I would say that whilst acknowledging our fallenness we have to begin with an understanding of what Imagination is and was meant to be in ipse, in its glory, on the basis that we only reform evil by glimpsing through it the original goodness from which it has corroded. I am very much with Coleridge, a (Do read What Coleridge Thought its a revelation)that the imagination is a living and shaping power of perception which is a repetition in the finite mind of the infinite and eternal I AM. Creation, the work of God's imagination is full of meaning and quzlity, (not just matter and quantity) and we only bein to apprehend that meaning, to let the heavens declare his glory, when our imagination goes out to meet his through the medium of the world he makes and shapes and within which we do our own reciprocal making and shaping. My book is specifically about the poetic imagination and my starting point is really Shakespeare's observation, that "Imagination apprehends more than cool reason ever comprehends. We need both, but presently post enlightenment culture is defficient in the imaginative/apprehensive side of that spectrum and we need to make the case, especially to reductive athiests of the dawkins variety that Imagination is a truth-bearing faculty.
        The shakespeare passage, from Midsummer nights dream, is also central to something else I want to say, which is that there is a paralell, and more than a paralell between Gods supreme creative act in entering into his own world through the incarnation, and every human attempt to 'incarnate' our eternal apprehensions in the specific finite and material shapes of our art. You remember that, describing the act of making poetry Shakespeare says:

        The poet's eye, in fine frenzy rolling,
        Doth glance from heaven to earth, from earth to heaven;
        And as imagination bodies forth
        The forms of things unknown, the poet's pen
        Turns them to shapes and gives to airy nothing
        A local habitation and a name.
        This is not simply a brilliant account of how poetry works, but with its frame of heaven and earth twice repeated and its hint that poetry must touch and comprehend them both, it gives a deeper resonance to the core moment when the word imagination and bodies are joined together. I believe this passage is also a beautiful account of incarnation. In the Incarnation the Word which dwells in the beginning richly with God, the Divine Logos which would otherwise be an apprehension or an abstraction in the human mind, is literally `bodied forth' literally given `a local habitation and a name', so that in John's Gospel the first question of the disciples to Jesus is `Master where are you staying?' . In Jesus Christ, who `bodies forth' from the Father Truth that would otherwise have remained `the form of things unknown', we see a continuous movement between `earth and heaven, heaven and earth'; we see Jesus `bodying forth' again and again the love which is the essence of heaven and we see the disciples glimpsing in him not only the physical body but also a kind of window or doorway into heaven itself, as at the transfiguration. Indeed in John's Gospel Christ declares himself to be the Door and the Way, So one of the things I am exploring is how works of what Coleridge called "secondary Imagination" and Tolkien called "sun creation" can body forth eternal truth, truth that perhaps cannot be embodied in any other way, certainly not in syllogisms and definitions, and how this bodying forth is always made possible By Gods own eternal and compassionate bodying forth of his Word in us and around us and for us.
        Anyway this has gone on too long, and its quite hard to summarize, but if people are interested I'll put some relevant passages of the book itself into the writings folder.
        Thank you all for your swift and interesting responses to someone who is a complete newbie to this net group/blogging world
        Malcolm

        --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Beussink <elimas26@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'd also be interested in anything you have to say about imagination. My
        > own meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on
        > "Reason and Imagination in C. S. Lewis: A Study of Till We Have Faces" as
        > well as some of Barfield's works. I was thinking that I'd check out his
        > "What Coleridge Thought" next, since, if I remember correctly, Coleridge was
        > a large influence on Barfield's ideas relating to imagination. Barfield
        > also said that imagination can be misused for evil: "Imagination is not, as
        > some poets have thought, simply synonymous with good. It may be either good
        > or evil. As long as art remained primarily mimetic, the evil which
        > imagination could do was limited by nature. Again, as long as it was
        > treated as an amusement, the evil which it could do was limited in scope.
        > But in an age when the connection between imagination and figuration
        > [formation of phenomena from sensations... something like that] is
        > beginning to be dimly realized, when the fact of the directionally creator
        > relation is beginning to breath through into consciousness, both the good
        > and the evil latent in the working of imagination begin to appear
        > unlimited." A little of that reminds me of Tolkien's idea of subcreation,
        > humanity's right whether "used or misused." He was, of course, strongly
        > influenced by Barfield's "Poetic Diction."
        >
        > Andrew
        >
        >
        > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Ann Ahnemann <ahnemann@...>wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> * *
        > >>
        > >> >I am trying
        > >> > to develop a substantial theology of Imagination and its good to be
        > >> > reminded by Williams that even so great a gift as imagination, such
        > >> > an essential part of the Imago Dei in us, can nevertheless, in our
        > >> > fallen state, cast such dreadful shadows. Strong stuff!
        > >> > Malcolm
        > >>
        > >> *Yes, very strong stuff.*
        > >>
        > >> *What would a theology of Imagination be? Much has been written about
        > >> the 'Evidence of Aesthetic Experience' wisely accompanied with warnings, as
        > >> you put it so well, which may 'cast such dreadful shadows'. I'm in mind of
        > >> what has been called 'German romanticism' which devolved into the very dark
        > >> in WWII for instance. Or some aspects of freemasonry, secret societies and
        > >> the like which CW had some experience with. What in a theology of
        > >> Imagination would keep us on the rails, stp? I think of D. Elton
        > >> Trueblood's pointing on the subject:"We do not, in ordinary life, see things
        > >> in themselves; instead we normally see them in relation to purposes to the
        > >> fulfillment of which they may lead, sooner or later." He, and others, felt
        > >> that experience of the aesthetic or imagination always involves a
        > >> recognition of purpose. Discernment. I've much benefited from C. S. Lewis'
        > >> affirmation that upon reading _Phantastes_ by George MacDonald his
        > >> imagination was baptized. *
        > >>
        > >> *And see C. S. Lewis in _God in the Doc: Bulverism" Imagination as it
        > >> may have related to Creation (276) and 'Transposition'. and a host of other
        > >> places where he speaks on the subject of 'baptized' imagination. I feel in
        > >> Charles Williams imagination runs amok at times- a with the character of
        > >> Prester John in _War in Heaven_. "...I am He who sent me." *
        > >>
        > >> *AJA*
        > >>
        > >> * *
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> >
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Ann Ahnemann
        From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Beussink Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:40 PM To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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          From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Beussink
          Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:40 PM
          To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: theology of the Imagination?? RE: [eldil] Re: Prester John

           

           

          >I'd also be

          interested in anything you have to say about imagination. 

          My simplest answer is that imagination is our way of processing spiritual realities.

           My own meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on "Reason and Imagination in C. S. Lewis: A Study of Till We Have Faces"

          I agree.  CSL is very good on the subject.  Weight of Glory, and other works- on the images/imagination good vs. evil conundrum.  He was all for reason, as you know.  He lists in WoG four 'tests' for moral judgment: facts, intuition, reasoning, authority. (WCG 58) Though moral judgment is not your main subject, I can't think how it wouldn't come into the discussion.  Imagination is not always to be trusted as wise people know.

          Further, I think you would be on an informative track with Coleridge.  He was living in the age of psychology which informs our subject in a positive way I believe, if one is looking toward a unified theory (if such exists) of perception.  That said, Coleridge as many others, Blake, could possibly run away with himself.

          Barfield was good with his, "...all spiritual facts are represented by natural symbols" quoted from Emerson's _Nature, Poetic Diction 92)  I do believe that Barfield's dunk into theosophy led him afield of the only true Unity of Creation:  the Creator. But I'm biased.  Unity for me is Christ Jesus- and my journey is therefore not to end in theory. :)

          BTW I particularly like in PD Barfield's Chapter VII The Making of Meaning.

          I would be most interested in your progress.  Much has been written; there is a lack of Theology of Imagination per se.

          Blessings,

          AJA

           

        • Malcolm
          Yes Coleridge is a key figure because he came eventually to a deeply rooted trinitarian theology and his whole philosophy starts and ends there. I think What
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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            Yes Coleridge is a key figure because he came eventually to a deeply rooted trinitarian theology and his whole philosophy starts and ends there. I think What Coleridge thought is Barfield's best book after PD precisely because sticking to coleridge him stops him falling into various anthroposophical abysses. Coleridge also finds Unity in christ binding together earth and heaven but it is as he would say unity in multeity (his word) Christ unifies all things but he also gives and gives back to all things their glorious particularity. I have put the introduction to FHP and also the chapter on Coleridge into the writings folder in this group. hope that worked
            M


            --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, Ann Ahnemann <ahnemann@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > Andrew Beussink
            > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:40 PM
            > To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: theology of the Imagination?? RE: [eldil] Re: Prester John
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >I'd also be interested in anything you have to say about imagination.
            >
            > My simplest answer is that imagination is our way of processing spiritual
            > realities.
            >
            > My own meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on
            > "Reason and Imagination in C. S. Lewis: A Study of Till We Have Faces"
            >
            > I agree. CSL is very good on the subject. Weight of Glory, and other
            > works- on the images/imagination good vs. evil conundrum. He was all for
            > reason, as you know. He lists in WoG four 'tests' for moral judgment:
            > facts, intuition, reasoning, authority. (WCG 58) Though moral judgment is
            > not your main subject, I can't think how it wouldn't come into the
            > discussion. Imagination is not always to be trusted as wise people know.
            >
            > Further, I think you would be on an informative track with Coleridge. He
            > was living in the age of psychology which informs our subject in a positive
            > way I believe, if one is looking toward a unified theory (if such exists) of
            > perception. That said, Coleridge as many others, Blake, could possibly run
            > away with himself.
            >
            > Barfield was good with his, "...all spiritual facts are represented by
            > natural symbols" quoted from Emerson's _Nature, Poetic Diction 92) I do
            > believe that Barfield's dunk into theosophy led him afield of the only true
            > Unity of Creation: the Creator. But I'm biased. Unity for me is Christ
            > Jesus- and my journey is therefore not to end in theory. :)
            >
            > BTW I particularly like in PD Barfield's Chapter VII The Making of Meaning.
            >
            > I would be most interested in your progress. Much has been written; there
            > is a lack of Theology of Imagination per se.
            >
            > Blessings,
            >
            > AJA
            >
          • Steve Hayes
            ... I am reminded of the Magnificat: He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. And then there is Gen 6:5: And the LORD saw that the
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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              On 21 Jan 2010 at 11:39, Andrew Beussink wrote:

              > I'd also be interested in anything you have to say about imagination. My own
              > meanderings have lead me in a somewhat similar direction, based on "Reason and
              > Imagination in C. S. Lewis: A Study of Till We Have Faces" as well as some of
              > Barfield's works. I was thinking that I'd check out his "What Coleridge
              > Thought" next, since, if I remember correctly, Coleridge was a large influence
              > on Barfield's ideas relating to imagination. Barfield also said that
              > imagination can be misused for evil: "Imagination is not, as some poets have
              > thought, simply synonymous with good. It may be either good or evil. As long
              > as art remained primarily mimetic, the evil which imagination could do was
              > limited by nature. Again, as long as it was treated as an amusement, the evil
              > which it could do was limited in scope. But in an age when the connection
              > between imagination and figuration [formation of phenomena from sensations...
              > something like that] is beginning to be dimly realized, when the fact of the
              > directionally creator relation is beginning to breath through into
              > consciousness, both the good and the evil latent in the working of imagination
              > begin to appear unlimited."

              I am reminded of the Magnificat: He has scattered the proud in the
              imagination of their hearts.

              And then there is Gen 6:5: And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was
              great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
              was only evil continually.


              --
              Steve Hayes
              E-mail: shayes@...
              Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
              Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
              Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
              Fax: 086-548-2525
            • Steve Hayes
              ... I m not sure about that. Quite a lot has been written about it, for example: http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2 (I hope the link works) -- Steve Hayes E-mail:
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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                On 21 Jan 2010 at 13:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:

                > I would be most interested in your progress. Much has been written; there is
                > a lack of Theology of Imagination per se.

                I'm not sure about that.

                Quite a lot has been written about it, for example:

                http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2

                (I hope the link works)


                --
                Steve Hayes
                E-mail: shayes@...
                Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
              • Ann Ahnemann
                From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:41 PM To: eldil@yahoogroups.com Subject:
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 21, 2010
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                  From: eldil@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eldil@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes
                  Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:41 PM
                  To: eldil@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: theology of the Imagination?? RE: [eldil] Re: Prester John

                   

                   

                  On 21 Jan 2010 at 13:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:

                  > I would be most interested in your progress. Much has been written; there is
                  > a lack of Theology of Imagination per se.

                  I'm not sure about that.

                  Quite a lot has been written about it, for example:

                  http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2

                  (I hope the link works)

                  Thanks, Steve,

                  The link took me to the book, Philokalia.  Tell me something about it.  And I should have known Eastern Orthodox has much to say on the subject.  :))  EO has been a veritable fountain of spiritual nourishment.

                  AJA




                  _,___

                • Steve Hayes
                  ... The Philokalia is a collection of spiritual writings from various periods made by Makarios of Corinth and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain a couple of
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
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                    On 21 Jan 2010 at 21:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:

                    > http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2
                    >
                    > (I hope the link works)
                    >
                    > Thanks, Steve,
                    >
                    > The link took me to the book, Philokalia. Tell me something about it. And I
                    > should have known Eastern Orthodox has much to say on the subject. :)) EO has
                    > been a veritable fountain of spiritual nourishment.

                    The Philokalia is a collection of spiritual writings from various periods
                    made by Makarios of Corinth and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain a couple of
                    hundred years ago. It was mainly intended for the guidance of monks, but
                    there's a lot that Christians living in the world can find useful too.

                    There's quite a lot in it about good and bad uses of the imagination
                    (dianoia).

                    .


                    --
                    Steve Hayes
                    E-mail: shayes@...
                    Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                    http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
                  • Malcolm
                    I was introduced to the Philokalia by my college chaplain when I became a Christian in 1979, it is a great source of wisdom, spiritual insight and renewal.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 22, 2010
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                      I was introduced to the Philokalia by my college chaplain when I became a Christian in 1979, it is a great source of wisdom, spiritual insight and renewal. Also good for humility, I have only to turn a few pages to be reminded how far I am from the real spiritual heights
                      M

                      --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 21 Jan 2010 at 21:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:
                      >
                      > > http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2
                      > >
                      > > (I hope the link works)
                      > >
                      > > Thanks, Steve,
                      > >
                      > > The link took me to the book, Philokalia. Tell me something about it. And I
                      > > should have known Eastern Orthodox has much to say on the subject. :)) EO has
                      > > been a veritable fountain of spiritual nourishment.
                      >
                      > The Philokalia is a collection of spiritual writings from various periods
                      > made by Makarios of Corinth and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain a couple of
                      > hundred years ago. It was mainly intended for the guidance of monks, but
                      > there's a lot that Christians living in the world can find useful too.
                      >
                      > There's quite a lot in it about good and bad uses of the imagination
                      > (dianoia).
                      >
                      > .
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Steve Hayes
                      > E-mail: shayes@...
                      > Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                      > http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
                      >
                    • Malcolm
                      Just connecting with theology and imagination from another angle, enacting poetic imagination rather than writing about it, Steve has suggested I post a link
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 27, 2010
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                        Just connecting with theology and imagination from another angle, enacting poetic imagination rather than writing about it, Steve has suggested I post a link to a blog post in which I have posted a new sequence of four sonnets moving through a church from font to altar. The link is now duly poosted on this groups links page but heres a taster, the first (font) sonnet to see if its the kind of think you want to follow, this sonnet arises from the context of an Easter Baptism and also describes the fifteenth century 'angel' font in the church I serve:

                        The Font

                        Old stone angels hold aloft the font
                        A wide womb, floating on the breath of God,
                        Feathered with seraph wings, lit with the swift
                        Bright lightening of praise, with thunder over-spread,
                        And under-girded with their unheard song,
                        Calling through water, fire, darkness, pain,
                        Calling us to the life for which we long,
                        Yearning to bring us to our birth again.

                        Again the breath of God is on the waters
                        In whose reflecting face our candles shine,
                        Again he draws from death the sons and daughters
                        For whom he bid the elements combine,
                        As old stone angels round a font today
                        Become the ones who roll the stone away.

                        Malcolm

                        --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, "Malcolm" <malcolmguite@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I was introduced to the Philokalia by my college chaplain when I became a Christian in 1979, it is a great source of wisdom, spiritual insight and renewal. Also good for humility, I have only to turn a few pages to be reminded how far I am from the real spiritual heights
                        > M
                        >
                        > --- In eldil@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On 21 Jan 2010 at 21:55, Ann Ahnemann wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > http://tinyurl.com/ybur2l2
                        > > >
                        > > > (I hope the link works)
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks, Steve,
                        > > >
                        > > > The link took me to the book, Philokalia. Tell me something about it. And I
                        > > > should have known Eastern Orthodox has much to say on the subject. :)) EO has
                        > > > been a veritable fountain of spiritual nourishment.
                        > >
                        > > The Philokalia is a collection of spiritual writings from various periods
                        > > made by Makarios of Corinth and Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain a couple of
                        > > hundred years ago. It was mainly intended for the guidance of monks, but
                        > > there's a lot that Christians living in the world can find useful too.
                        > >
                        > > There's quite a lot in it about good and bad uses of the imagination
                        > > (dianoia).
                        > >
                        > > .
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Steve Hayes
                        > > E-mail: shayes@
                        > > Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                        > > http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
                        > >
                        >
                      • Steve Hayes
                        ... Malcolm, I think all four were very good. I ve never been a great fan of the sonnet format, but after reading yours, i almost changed my mind. I ll have to
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 27, 2010
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                          On 27 Jan 2010 at 16:01, Malcolm wrote:

                          > Just connecting with theology and imagination from another angle, enacting
                          > poetic imagination rather than writing about it, Steve has suggested I post a
                          > link to a blog post in which I have posted a new sequence of four sonnets
                          > moving through a church from font to altar. The link is now duly poosted on
                          > this groups links page but heres a taster, the first (font) sonnet to see if
                          > its the kind of think you want to follow, this sonnet arises from the context
                          > of an Easter Baptism and also describes the fifteenth century 'angel' font in
                          > the church I serve:

                          Malcolm,

                          I think all four were very good.

                          I've never been a great fan of the sonnet format, but after reading yours, i
                          almost changed my mind. I'll have to re-read Herbert, but I think I like
                          yours better.

                          And thanks for doing it, because the aim of this group is not just to admire
                          the Inklings, but to do what they did and share each other's writing, and
                          comment on it.


                          --
                          Steve Hayes
                          E-mail: shayes@...
                          Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
                          http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
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