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Re: [einpc] Reminder - Citizen Forum

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  • Michael D. Barrett
    Rebecca, or whoever is in charge of this, Could we find out who will be providing the updates on HSR, E. Wash, etc. It would be nice to know if this is just
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 1, 2001
      Rebecca, or whoever is in charge of this,
      Could we find out who will be providing the "updates" on HSR, E.
      Wash, etc. It would be nice to know if this is just going to be a
      rehash of everything that has gone before, or if we will have a
      "real" opportunity to have input with folks who are making decisions.
      -Mike

      >We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.
      >
      >Citizen Forum
      >
      >Date: Saturday, October 13, 2001
      >Time: 9:00AM - 12:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00)
      >
      >Location: Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
      >Meeting Room.
      >
      >Network, hear updates on High Speed Rail and the East Washington
      >Reconstruction Project, and learn about area Neighborhood
      >Centers.
      >
      > * * * Free * * *
      >
      >The EINPC strives to maximize accessibility for all of its
      >public functions. Events are held at physically accessible
      >locations. Requests for further accommodation may be made by
      >notifying us 5 business days prior to the event at 204-0834 or
      >einpc@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Michael Basford
      Could you define real opportunity to have input in terms of how that would be different from the last Citizen Forum - which had city and state officials
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 1, 2001
        Could you define "'real' opportunity to have input" in terms of how that
        would be different from the last Citizen Forum - which had city and state
        officials giving presentations and taking questions/comments from the
        audience?

        MB



        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Michael D. Barrett [mailto:mikeb@...]
        > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:02 AM
        > To: einpc@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [einpc] Reminder - Citizen Forum
        >
        >
        > Rebecca, or whoever is in charge of this,
        > Could we find out who will be providing the "updates" on HSR, E.
        > Wash, etc. It would be nice to know if this is just going to be a
        > rehash of everything that has gone before, or if we will have a
        > "real" opportunity to have input with folks who are making decisions.
        > -Mike
        >
        > >We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.
        > >
        > >Citizen Forum
        > >
        > >Date: Saturday, October 13, 2001
        > >Time: 9:00AM - 12:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00)
        > >
        > >Location: Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
        > >Meeting Room.
        > >
        > >Network, hear updates on High Speed Rail and the East Washington
        > >Reconstruction Project, and learn about area Neighborhood
        > >Centers.
        > >
        > > * * * Free * * *
        > >
        > >The EINPC strives to maximize accessibility for all of its
        > >public functions. Events are held at physically accessible
        > >locations. Requests for further accommodation may be made by
        > >notifying us 5 business days prior to the event at 204-0834 or
        > >einpc@...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Jody McIntyre
        Feisty first thing on a Monday, eh? ;) ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 1, 2001
          Feisty first thing on a Monday, eh?

          ;)

          --- "Michael D. Barrett" <mikeb@...>
          wrote:
          > Rebecca, or whoever is in charge of this,
          > Could we find out who will be providing the
          > "updates" on HSR, E.
          > Wash, etc. It would be nice to know if this is just
          > going to be a
          > rehash of everything that has gone before, or if we
          > will have a
          > "real" opportunity to have input with folks who are
          > making decisions.
          > -Mike
          >
          > >We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.
          > >
          > >Citizen Forum
          > >
          > >Date: Saturday, October 13, 2001
          > >Time: 9:00AM - 12:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00)
          > >
          > >Location: Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago,
          > Downstairs
          > >Meeting Room.
          > >
          > >Network, hear updates on High Speed Rail and the
          > East Washington
          > >Reconstruction Project, and learn about area
          > Neighborhood
          > >Centers.
          > >
          > > * * * Free * * *
          > >
          > >The EINPC strives to maximize accessibility for all
          > of its
          > >public functions. Events are held at physically
          > accessible
          > >locations. Requests for further accommodation may
          > be made by
          > >notifying us 5 business days prior to the event at
          > 204-0834 or
          > >einpc@...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >To Post a message, send it to:
          > einpc@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >To Subscribe, send a blank message to:
          > einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
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          Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
          http://phone.yahoo.com
        • Jody McIntyre
          Hee hee, meant to direct that feisty e-mail to Mike. Sorry, everyone. Now I am laughing at myself (and everyone around me is shaking their heads...). Mike
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 1, 2001
            Hee hee, meant to direct that "feisty" e-mail to Mike.
            Sorry, everyone.

            Now I am laughing at myself (and everyone around me is
            shaking their heads...). Mike wins.



            __________________________________________________
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            Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
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          • nescoinc@aol.com
            Thanks for putting us on your e-mail list. I think we are ok without also getting the U.S. Mail. Jim
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 3, 2001
              Thanks for putting us on your e-mail list. I think we are ok without also getting the U.S. Mail.

              Jim
            • einpc@yahoogroups.com
              We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Citizen Forum Date: Saturday, October 13, 2001 Time: 9:00AM - 12:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Location: Trinity
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 6, 2001
                We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

                Citizen Forum

                Date: Saturday, October 13, 2001
                Time: 9:00AM - 12:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00)

                Location: Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
                Meeting Room.

                Network, hear updates on High Speed Rail and the East Washington
                Reconstruction Project, and learn about area Neighborhood
                Centers.

                * * * Free * * *

                The EINPC strives to maximize accessibility for all of its
                public functions. Events are held at physically accessible
                locations. Requests for further accommodation may be made by
                notifying us 5 business days prior to the event at 204-0834 or
                einpc@...
              • Karolyn Beebe
                About the Citizen Forum on Saturday, October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs First, was there a reply to
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 9, 2001
                  About the "Citizen Forum" on Saturday,
                  October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM
                  Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs

                  First, was there a reply to Mike's questions that I missed?

                  > Could you define "'real' opportunity to have input" in terms of how that
                  > would be different from the last Citizen Forum - which had city and state
                  > officials giving presentations and taking questions/comments from the
                  > audience?

                  If that's what's planned for this one, you might call it an East Isthmus
                  Infrastructure Information Forum or somthing like that, but NOT a CITIZEN
                  forum. I join all who went to the last one anticipating a forum by and for
                  the people who live here and were sorely disappointed.

                  Karolyn Beebe
                • Kirsten Bonde
                  Hello Karolyn, As the chair of the Planning Issues Committee, I replied to Mike s questions directly via email. If you, or others, have concerns about the way
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 10, 2001
                    Hello Karolyn,

                    As the chair of the Planning Issues Committee, I
                    replied to Mike's questions directly via email. If
                    you, or others, have concerns about the way the forums
                    have been organized, your input and participation in
                    the committee is welcome and encouraged. All of the
                    forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                    your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                    forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough. We have
                    received many positive comments from others about
                    these events previously.

                    If you or others are concerned about how these events
                    are put together, please get involved! We are doing
                    our best to connect residents with the people who have
                    decision making power and would appreciate more direct
                    input on further improving our efforts. As announced
                    via the egroups list, Planning Issues meetings are
                    open to everyone and the next one is tonight from 7 to
                    8:30 pm at the Atwood Center. If you have any further
                    questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me
                    at kittybonde@... or call me at 240-9722.
                    Thanks for your input.

                    Kitty Bonde

                    --- Karolyn Beebe <keedos@...> wrote:
                    > About the "Citizen Forum" on Saturday,
                    > October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM
                    > Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
                    >
                    > First, was there a reply to Mike's questions that I
                    > missed?
                    >
                    > > Could you define "'real' opportunity to have
                    > input" in terms of how that
                    > > would be different from the last Citizen Forum -
                    > which had city and state
                    > > officials giving presentations and taking
                    > questions/comments from the
                    > > audience?
                    >
                    > If that's what's planned for this one, you might
                    > call it an East Isthmus
                    > Infrastructure Information Forum or somthing like
                    > that, but NOT a CITIZEN
                    > forum. I join all who went to the last one
                    > anticipating a forum by and for
                    > the people who live here and were sorely
                    > disappointed.
                    >
                    > Karolyn Beebe
                    >
                    >


                    __________________________________________________
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                    Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                    http://personals.yahoo.com
                  • Karolyn Beebe
                    All of the ... Kitty, The only forum I m aware of took place at the church around 2 years ago. I don t recall what led people to think it would be a first time
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 10, 2001
                      All of the
                      > forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                      > your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                      > forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough

                      Kitty,

                      The only forum I'm aware of took place at the church around 2 years ago. I
                      don't recall what led people to think it would be a first time organized
                      opportunity to share ideas about what we wanted to see in our east isthmus
                      neighborhoods. City officials were expected to listen or answer questions.
                      I was happy to see Mayor Bauman, Larry Nelson, David Dryer and others. As it
                      grew more obvious that again we were only being offered choices from the
                      city's agenda, people grumbeled in the hall or left.

                      Karolyn



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Kirsten Bonde" <kittybonde@...>
                      To: <einpc@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:45 AM
                      Subject: Re: [einpc] Reminder - Citizen Forum


                      > Hello Karolyn,
                      >
                      > As the chair of the Planning Issues Committee, I
                      > replied to Mike's questions directly via email. If
                      > you, or others, have concerns about the way the forums
                      > have been organized, your input and participation in
                      > the committee is welcome and encouraged. All of the
                      > forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                      > your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                      > forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough. We have
                      > received many positive comments from others about
                      > these events previously.
                      >
                      > If you or others are concerned about how these events
                      > are put together, please get involved! We are doing
                      > our best to connect residents with the people who have
                      > decision making power and would appreciate more direct
                      > input on further improving our efforts. As announced
                      > via the egroups list, Planning Issues meetings are
                      > open to everyone and the next one is tonight from 7 to
                      > 8:30 pm at the Atwood Center. If you have any further
                      > questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me
                      > at kittybonde@... or call me at 240-9722.
                      > Thanks for your input.
                      >
                      > Kitty Bonde
                      >
                      > --- Karolyn Beebe <keedos@...> wrote:
                      > > About the "Citizen Forum" on Saturday,
                      > > October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM
                      > > Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
                      > >
                      > > First, was there a reply to Mike's questions that I
                      > > missed?
                      > >
                      > > > Could you define "'real' opportunity to have
                      > > input" in terms of how that
                      > > > would be different from the last Citizen Forum -
                      > > which had city and state
                      > > > officials giving presentations and taking
                      > > questions/comments from the
                      > > > audience?
                      > >
                      > > If that's what's planned for this one, you might
                      > > call it an East Isthmus
                      > > Infrastructure Information Forum or somthing like
                      > > that, but NOT a CITIZEN
                      > > forum. I join all who went to the last one
                      > > anticipating a forum by and for
                      > > the people who live here and were sorely
                      > > disappointed.
                      > >
                      > > Karolyn Beebe
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                      > http://personals.yahoo.com
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Michael D. Barrett
                      Karolyn is exactly right. The mayor & bigwigs on city staff breeze in, give a few kind words and breeze out. We are then left to talk amongst ourselves.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 10, 2001
                        Karolyn is exactly right. The mayor & bigwigs on city staff breeze
                        in, give a few kind words and breeze out. We are then left to talk
                        amongst ourselves. Though there is a lot of agreement on issues
                        *intra-* neighborhood, our views of how things in the neighborhood
                        should go are often very different from those of the inhabitants of
                        210 MLK, Jr. Blvd. A lot of that is because they never stick around
                        to actually *listen* to us. Then, when specific neighborhood issues
                        are brought up to city officials in other venues they profess never
                        to have heard such ideas, then put them down as opinions of one
                        disgruntled citizen. Well, in their minds, that's right, they didn't
                        hang around to hear them from the many of us who do agree on
                        neighborhood issues.

                        In fact, we have come to a consensus on many, many neighborhood
                        issues in the form of the Census Tract 20 process (SASY area) and
                        other Census Tract, Better Urban Infill Development (BUILD) and other
                        plans of east isthmus neighborhoods. And theoretically, the city as
                        a whole has bought into our vision by adopting the plans. There is a
                        lot of really good, pro-neighborhood stuff in these recently adopted
                        plans.

                        But these plans carried no weight on, for example, the E. Wash
                        Strategic Advisory Committee. Though there is much in our
                        neighborhood plans that focuses on reigning in the thundering motor
                        herds on main thoroughfares and other neighborhood streets, those
                        measures were brushed aside as parochial ("This is a federally funded
                        state highway" was the oft stated refrain; the implication was that
                        you don't count if you live in the area; only long-distance, out of
                        town commuters are important). Yet pedestrian safety, bike mobility
                        and transit figure heavily into our neighborhood plans, again,
                        something agreed to by the city in its plan adoption process. But
                        when it comes down to actually designing (such as the work of the E.
                        Wash Strategic Advisory Committee) and laying down asphalt for these
                        facilities, the default mode is to make the roads more conducive to
                        more and faster automobile traffic. At this meeting, take a look at
                        the plans for specific East Wash intersections: First Street/E. Wash
                        intersection and the Milwaukee/North/E. Wash intersection are slated
                        to be widened and equipped with interstate-style, flying right turn
                        lanes. This will require pedestrians to a) risk their lives and b)
                        spend several minutes waiting for several lights to cross at each of
                        many pedestrian "islands." This sort of 1950's design is deadly to
                        pedestrians. It militates against building a sense of neighborhood
                        scale to the street - something boldly called for in the Census
                        Tract 20 and the BUILD plans.

                        We can bring some appropriate scale to the street *and* provide a
                        major corridor for downtown traffic. It is *not* an either/or
                        situation (I can hear the cries from the city now: "Stop picking on
                        cars!"). But the city has to get out of their highway building
                        mindset and begin providing strong incentives for rapid, cheap and
                        convenient commutes by other than single occupant motor vehicles. It
                        is doable and the demand is there (if you doubt me, then why do so
                        many businesses along E. Wash spend the bucks on the rafts of signs
                        stating: "NO PARK AND RIDE"?) The city could begin by dedicating High
                        Occupancy Vehicle lanes on E. Wash for direct (i.e. not rambling
                        along tiny neighborhood streets) and frequent (every 5 minutes during
                        rush hour, every 10 minutes all other times) bus service for high
                        volume roads such as E. Wash. They could also give deep, scaled
                        discounts for people who drive in to parking ramps with more than one
                        person in the car (1/2 off for 2 people; 75% off for 3 people; free
                        for 4 or more.) They could also institute mandated Transportation
                        Demand Management programs such as Parking Cash Out for all new
                        developments (especially downtown developments). That way we are
                        making the most of *current* resources, rather than *creating* demand
                        for ever wider municipal freeways.

                        -Mike Barrett

                        >All of the
                        >> forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                        >> your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                        >> forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough
                        >
                        >Kitty,
                        >
                        >The only forum I'm aware of took place at the church around 2 years ago. I
                        >don't recall what led people to think it would be a first time organized
                        >opportunity to share ideas about what we wanted to see in our east isthmus
                        >neighborhoods. City officials were expected to listen or answer questions.
                        >I was happy to see Mayor Bauman, Larry Nelson, David Dryer and others. As it
                        >grew more obvious that again we were only being offered choices from the
                        >city's agenda, people grumbeled in the hall or left.
                        >
                        >Karolyn
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >----- Original Message -----
                        >From: "Kirsten Bonde" <kittybonde@...>
                        >To: <einpc@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:45 AM
                        >Subject: Re: [einpc] Reminder - Citizen Forum
                        >
                        >
                        >> Hello Karolyn,
                        >>
                        >> As the chair of the Planning Issues Committee, I
                        >> replied to Mike's questions directly via email. If
                        >> you, or others, have concerns about the way the forums
                        >> have been organized, your input and participation in
                        >> the committee is welcome and encouraged. All of the
                        >> forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                        >> your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                        >> forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough. We have
                        >> received many positive comments from others about
                        >> these events previously.
                        >>
                        >> If you or others are concerned about how these events
                        >> are put together, please get involved! We are doing
                        >> our best to connect residents with the people who have
                        >> decision making power and would appreciate more direct
                        >> input on further improving our efforts. As announced
                        >> via the egroups list, Planning Issues meetings are
                        >> open to everyone and the next one is tonight from 7 to
                        >> 8:30 pm at the Atwood Center. If you have any further
                        >> questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me
                        >> at kittybonde@... or call me at 240-9722.
                        >> Thanks for your input.
                        >>
                        >> Kitty Bonde
                        >>
                        >> --- Karolyn Beebe <keedos@...> wrote:
                        >> > About the "Citizen Forum" on Saturday,
                        >> > October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM
                        >> > Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
                        >> >
                        >> > First, was there a reply to Mike's questions that I
                        >> > missed?
                        >> >
                        >> > > Could you define "'real' opportunity to have
                        >> > input" in terms of how that
                        >> > > would be different from the last Citizen Forum -
                        >> > which had city and state
                        >> > > officials giving presentations and taking
                        >> > questions/comments from the
                        >> > > audience?
                        >> >
                        >> > If that's what's planned for this one, you might
                        >> > call it an East Isthmus
                        >> > Infrastructure Information Forum or somthing like
                        >> > that, but NOT a CITIZEN
                        >> > forum. I join all who went to the last one
                        >> > anticipating a forum by and for
                        >> > the people who live here and were sorely
                        >> > disappointed.
                        >> >
                        >> > Karolyn Beebe
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> __________________________________________________
                        >> Do You Yahoo!?
                        >> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                        >> http://personals.yahoo.com
                        >>
                        >> To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                        >>
                        >> To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >>
                        >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >>
                        >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
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                        >
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                      • Rebecca Krantz
                        As Kitty said in her earlier message, the EINPC greatly appreciates input about what sort of forums people would like to have. Of course, it s too late to make
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 10, 2001
                          As Kitty said in her earlier message, the EINPC greatly appreciates input
                          about what sort of forums people would like to have. Of course, it's too
                          late to make extensive changes to the format of this Saturday's Forum, but
                          we will take this feedback into consideration for future events.

                          It is always disappointing when people come to an event expecting to be
                          listened to and instead are talked at; however, informational forums are an
                          important part of a healthy democracy as well; if people don't know
                          something is going on, they can't express their opinions about it. We will
                          try to be as clear as possible about which type of "forum" any given event
                          is going to be.

                          By the way, this event, like the previous two Citizen Forums, is completely
                          volunteer-organized; unlike some EINPC activities, staff have done almost
                          none of the work to make this happen. This speaks well of the Planning
                          Issues Committee. It also means that Kitty's invitation to get involved if
                          you want something different to happen is a serious one; without citizen
                          involvement in making "forums" happen, neither getting talked at nor
                          getting listened to will be possible!

                          Grumbling on your way out the door does not make change happen; working
                          together with your fellow citizens does.

                          Besides this sort of informational forum and possible future forums of
                          other formats, the EINPC has a committee gearing up to work on East
                          Washington Avenue. Watch for an announcement of its next meeting time soon.

                          -Rebecca, EINPC Facilitator

                          At 01:58 PM 10/10/2001 -0500, you wrote:
                          >Karolyn is exactly right. The mayor & bigwigs on city staff breeze
                          >in, give a few kind words and breeze out. We are then left to talk
                          >amongst ourselves. Though there is a lot of agreement on issues
                          >*intra-* neighborhood, our views of how things in the neighborhood
                          >should go are often very different from those of the inhabitants of
                          >210 MLK, Jr. Blvd. A lot of that is because they never stick around
                          >to actually *listen* to us. Then, when specific neighborhood issues
                          >are brought up to city officials in other venues they profess never
                          >to have heard such ideas, then put them down as opinions of one
                          >disgruntled citizen. Well, in their minds, that's right, they didn't
                          >hang around to hear them from the many of us who do agree on
                          >neighborhood issues.
                          >
                          >In fact, we have come to a consensus on many, many neighborhood
                          >issues in the form of the Census Tract 20 process (SASY area) and
                          >other Census Tract, Better Urban Infill Development (BUILD) and other
                          >plans of east isthmus neighborhoods. And theoretically, the city as
                          >a whole has bought into our vision by adopting the plans. There is a
                          >lot of really good, pro-neighborhood stuff in these recently adopted
                          >plans.
                          >
                          >But these plans carried no weight on, for example, the E. Wash
                          >Strategic Advisory Committee. Though there is much in our
                          >neighborhood plans that focuses on reigning in the thundering motor
                          >herds on main thoroughfares and other neighborhood streets, those
                          >measures were brushed aside as parochial ("This is a federally funded
                          >state highway" was the oft stated refrain; the implication was that
                          >you don't count if you live in the area; only long-distance, out of
                          >town commuters are important). Yet pedestrian safety, bike mobility
                          >and transit figure heavily into our neighborhood plans, again,
                          >something agreed to by the city in its plan adoption process. But
                          >when it comes down to actually designing (such as the work of the E.
                          >Wash Strategic Advisory Committee) and laying down asphalt for these
                          >facilities, the default mode is to make the roads more conducive to
                          >more and faster automobile traffic. At this meeting, take a look at
                          >the plans for specific East Wash intersections: First Street/E. Wash
                          >intersection and the Milwaukee/North/E. Wash intersection are slated
                          >to be widened and equipped with interstate-style, flying right turn
                          >lanes. This will require pedestrians to a) risk their lives and b)
                          >spend several minutes waiting for several lights to cross at each of
                          >many pedestrian "islands." This sort of 1950's design is deadly to
                          >pedestrians. It militates against building a sense of neighborhood
                          >scale to the street - something boldly called for in the Census
                          >Tract 20 and the BUILD plans.
                          >
                          >We can bring some appropriate scale to the street *and* provide a
                          >major corridor for downtown traffic. It is *not* an either/or
                          >situation (I can hear the cries from the city now: "Stop picking on
                          >cars!"). But the city has to get out of their highway building
                          >mindset and begin providing strong incentives for rapid, cheap and
                          >convenient commutes by other than single occupant motor vehicles. It
                          >is doable and the demand is there (if you doubt me, then why do so
                          >many businesses along E. Wash spend the bucks on the rafts of signs
                          >stating: "NO PARK AND RIDE"?) The city could begin by dedicating High
                          >Occupancy Vehicle lanes on E. Wash for direct (i.e. not rambling
                          >along tiny neighborhood streets) and frequent (every 5 minutes during
                          >rush hour, every 10 minutes all other times) bus service for high
                          >volume roads such as E. Wash. They could also give deep, scaled
                          >discounts for people who drive in to parking ramps with more than one
                          >person in the car (1/2 off for 2 people; 75% off for 3 people; free
                          >for 4 or more.) They could also institute mandated Transportation
                          >Demand Management programs such as Parking Cash Out for all new
                          >developments (especially downtown developments). That way we are
                          >making the most of *current* resources, rather than *creating* demand
                          >for ever wider municipal freeways.
                          >
                          >-Mike Barrett
                          >
                          > >All of the
                          > >> forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                          > >> your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                          > >> forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough
                          > >
                          > >Kitty,
                          > >
                          > >The only forum I'm aware of took place at the church around 2 years ago. I
                          > >don't recall what led people to think it would be a first time organized
                          > >opportunity to share ideas about what we wanted to see in our east isthmus
                          > >neighborhoods. City officials were expected to listen or answer questions.
                          > >I was happy to see Mayor Bauman, Larry Nelson, David Dryer and others. As it
                          > >grew more obvious that again we were only being offered choices from the
                          > >city's agenda, people grumbeled in the hall or left.
                          > >
                          > >Karolyn
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >----- Original Message -----
                          > >From: "Kirsten Bonde" <kittybonde@...>
                          > >To: <einpc@yahoogroups.com>
                          > >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:45 AM
                          > >Subject: Re: [einpc] Reminder - Citizen Forum
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >> Hello Karolyn,
                          > >>
                          > >> As the chair of the Planning Issues Committee, I
                          > >> replied to Mike's questions directly via email. If
                          > >> you, or others, have concerns about the way the forums
                          > >> have been organized, your input and participation in
                          > >> the committee is welcome and encouraged. All of the
                          > >> forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                          > >> your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                          > >> forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough. We have
                          > >> received many positive comments from others about
                          > >> these events previously.
                          > >>
                          > >> If you or others are concerned about how these events
                          > >> are put together, please get involved! We are doing
                          > >> our best to connect residents with the people who have
                          > >> decision making power and would appreciate more direct
                          > >> input on further improving our efforts. As announced
                          > >> via the egroups list, Planning Issues meetings are
                          > >> open to everyone and the next one is tonight from 7 to
                          > >> 8:30 pm at the Atwood Center. If you have any further
                          > >> questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me
                          > >> at kittybonde@... or call me at 240-9722.
                          > >> Thanks for your input.
                          > >>
                          > >> Kitty Bonde
                          > >>
                          > >> --- Karolyn Beebe <keedos@...> wrote:
                          > >> > About the "Citizen Forum" on Saturday,
                          > >> > October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM
                          > >> > Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
                          > >> >
                          > >> > First, was there a reply to Mike's questions that I
                          > >> > missed?
                          > >> >
                          > >> > > Could you define "'real' opportunity to have
                          > >> > input" in terms of how that
                          > >> > > would be different from the last Citizen Forum -
                          > >> > which had city and state
                          > >> > > officials giving presentations and taking
                          > >> > questions/comments from the
                          > >> > > audience?
                          > >> >
                          > >> > If that's what's planned for this one, you might
                          > >> > call it an East Isthmus
                          > >> > Infrastructure Information Forum or somthing like
                          > >> > that, but NOT a CITIZEN
                          > >> > forum. I join all who went to the last one
                          > >> > anticipating a forum by and for
                          > >> > the people who live here and were sorely
                          > >> > disappointed.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Karolyn Beebe
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> __________________________________________________
                          > >> Do You Yahoo!?
                          > >> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                          > >> http://personals.yahoo.com
                          > >>
                          > >> To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                          > >>
                          > >> To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >>
                          > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          > einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >>
                          > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                          In Community,

                          Rebecca Krantz, Facilitator
                          East Isthmus Neighborhoods Planning Council
                          2425 Atwood Avenue
                          Madison, WI 53704
                          (608) 204-0834

                          "Humans cannot engage in group activity successfully without
                          leadership....Someone, at least one person, must think about the effort as
                          a whole and not only about her or his individual role in it in order for
                          the group effort to succeed." -- Harvey Jackins
                        • Randy Glysch
                          I think the Planning Issues Committee and especially Kitty Bonde deserve a great deal of credit and thanks for putting together the forum on Saturday. I would
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 10, 2001
                            I think the Planning Issues Committee and especially Kitty Bonde deserve a
                            great deal of credit and thanks for putting together the forum on Saturday.
                            I would second Kitty's suggestion that if you want something different to
                            happen, then get involved in the process, don't just sit there and
                            complain, do something about it. Put some of that negative energy to some
                            good use, help the EINPC with these sorts of events. Let's work together
                            to make the process a better one for all residents of the East Isthmus area!

                            Randy Glysch, Co-Chair
                            EINPC


                            >As Kitty said in her earlier message, the EINPC greatly appreciates input
                            >about what sort of forums people would like to have. Of course, it's too
                            >late to make extensive changes to the format of this Saturday's Forum, but
                            >we will take this feedback into consideration for future events.
                            >
                            >It is always disappointing when people come to an event expecting to be
                            >listened to and instead are talked at; however, informational forums are an
                            >important part of a healthy democracy as well; if people don't know
                            >something is going on, they can't express their opinions about it. We will
                            >try to be as clear as possible about which type of "forum" any given event
                            >is going to be.
                            >
                            >By the way, this event, like the previous two Citizen Forums, is completely
                            >volunteer-organized; unlike some EINPC activities, staff have done almost
                            >none of the work to make this happen. This speaks well of the Planning
                            >Issues Committee. It also means that Kitty's invitation to get involved if
                            >you want something different to happen is a serious one; without citizen
                            >involvement in making "forums" happen, neither getting talked at nor
                            >getting listened to will be possible!
                            >
                            >Grumbling on your way out the door does not make change happen; working
                            >together with your fellow citizens does.
                            >
                            >Besides this sort of informational forum and possible future forums of
                            >other formats, the EINPC has a committee gearing up to work on East
                            >Washington Avenue. Watch for an announcement of its next meeting time soon.
                            >
                            >-Rebecca, EINPC Facilitator
                            >
                            >At 01:58 PM 10/10/2001 -0500, you wrote:
                            >>Karolyn is exactly right. The mayor & bigwigs on city staff breeze
                            >>in, give a few kind words and breeze out. We are then left to talk
                            >>amongst ourselves. Though there is a lot of agreement on issues
                            >>*intra-* neighborhood, our views of how things in the neighborhood
                            >>should go are often very different from those of the inhabitants of
                            >>210 MLK, Jr. Blvd. A lot of that is because they never stick around
                            >>to actually *listen* to us. Then, when specific neighborhood issues
                            >>are brought up to city officials in other venues they profess never
                            >>to have heard such ideas, then put them down as opinions of one
                            >>disgruntled citizen. Well, in their minds, that's right, they didn't
                            >>hang around to hear them from the many of us who do agree on
                            >>neighborhood issues.
                            >>
                            >>In fact, we have come to a consensus on many, many neighborhood
                            >>issues in the form of the Census Tract 20 process (SASY area) and
                            >>other Census Tract, Better Urban Infill Development (BUILD) and other
                            >>plans of east isthmus neighborhoods. And theoretically, the city as
                            >>a whole has bought into our vision by adopting the plans. There is a
                            >>lot of really good, pro-neighborhood stuff in these recently adopted
                            >>plans.
                            >>
                            >>But these plans carried no weight on, for example, the E. Wash
                            >>Strategic Advisory Committee. Though there is much in our
                            >>neighborhood plans that focuses on reigning in the thundering motor
                            >>herds on main thoroughfares and other neighborhood streets, those
                            >>measures were brushed aside as parochial ("This is a federally funded
                            >>state highway" was the oft stated refrain; the implication was that
                            >>you don't count if you live in the area; only long-distance, out of
                            >>town commuters are important). Yet pedestrian safety, bike mobility
                            >>and transit figure heavily into our neighborhood plans, again,
                            >>something agreed to by the city in its plan adoption process. But
                            >>when it comes down to actually designing (such as the work of the E.
                            >>Wash Strategic Advisory Committee) and laying down asphalt for these
                            >>facilities, the default mode is to make the roads more conducive to
                            >>more and faster automobile traffic. At this meeting, take a look at
                            >>the plans for specific East Wash intersections: First Street/E. Wash
                            >>intersection and the Milwaukee/North/E. Wash intersection are slated
                            >>to be widened and equipped with interstate-style, flying right turn
                            >>lanes. This will require pedestrians to a) risk their lives and b)
                            >>spend several minutes waiting for several lights to cross at each of
                            >>many pedestrian "islands." This sort of 1950's design is deadly to
                            >>pedestrians. It militates against building a sense of neighborhood
                            >>scale to the street - something boldly called for in the Census
                            >>Tract 20 and the BUILD plans.
                            >>
                            >>We can bring some appropriate scale to the street *and* provide a
                            >>major corridor for downtown traffic. It is *not* an either/or
                            >>situation (I can hear the cries from the city now: "Stop picking on
                            >>cars!"). But the city has to get out of their highway building
                            >>mindset and begin providing strong incentives for rapid, cheap and
                            >>convenient commutes by other than single occupant motor vehicles. It
                            >>is doable and the demand is there (if you doubt me, then why do so
                            >>many businesses along E. Wash spend the bucks on the rafts of signs
                            >>stating: "NO PARK AND RIDE"?) The city could begin by dedicating High
                            >>Occupancy Vehicle lanes on E. Wash for direct (i.e. not rambling
                            >>along tiny neighborhood streets) and frequent (every 5 minutes during
                            >>rush hour, every 10 minutes all other times) bus service for high
                            >>volume roads such as E. Wash. They could also give deep, scaled
                            >>discounts for people who drive in to parking ramps with more than one
                            >>person in the car (1/2 off for 2 people; 75% off for 3 people; free
                            >>for 4 or more.) They could also institute mandated Transportation
                            >>Demand Management programs such as Parking Cash Out for all new
                            >>developments (especially downtown developments). That way we are
                            >>making the most of *current* resources, rather than *creating* demand
                            >>for ever wider municipal freeways.
                            >>
                            >>-Mike Barrett
                            >>
                            >> >All of the
                            >> >> forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                            >> >> your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                            >> >> forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough
                            >> >
                            >> >Kitty,
                            >> >
                            >> >The only forum I'm aware of took place at the church around 2 years ago. I
                            >> >don't recall what led people to think it would be a first time organized
                            >> >opportunity to share ideas about what we wanted to see in our east isthmus
                            >> >neighborhoods. City officials were expected to listen or answer questions.
                            >> >I was happy to see Mayor Bauman, Larry Nelson, David Dryer and others.
                            >>As it
                            >> >grew more obvious that again we were only being offered choices from the
                            >> >city's agenda, people grumbeled in the hall or left.
                            >> >
                            >> >Karolyn
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >----- Original Message -----
                            >> >From: "Kirsten Bonde" <kittybonde@...>
                            >> >To: <einpc@yahoogroups.com>
                            >> >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:45 AM
                            >> >Subject: Re: [einpc] Reminder - Citizen Forum
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >> Hello Karolyn,
                            >> >>
                            >> >> As the chair of the Planning Issues Committee, I
                            >> >> replied to Mike's questions directly via email. If
                            >> >> you, or others, have concerns about the way the forums
                            >> >> have been organized, your input and participation in
                            >> >> the committee is welcome and encouraged. All of the
                            >> >> forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                            >> >> your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                            >> >> forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough. We have
                            >> >> received many positive comments from others about
                            >> >> these events previously.
                            >> >>
                            >> >> If you or others are concerned about how these events
                            >> >> are put together, please get involved! We are doing
                            >> >> our best to connect residents with the people who have
                            >> >> decision making power and would appreciate more direct
                            >> >> input on further improving our efforts. As announced
                            >> >> via the egroups list, Planning Issues meetings are
                            >> >> open to everyone and the next one is tonight from 7 to
                            >> >> 8:30 pm at the Atwood Center. If you have any further
                            >> >> questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me
                            >> >> at kittybonde@... or call me at 240-9722.
                            >> >> Thanks for your input.
                            >> >>
                            >> >> Kitty Bonde
                            >> >>
                            >> >> --- Karolyn Beebe <keedos@...> wrote:
                            >> >> > About the "Citizen Forum" on Saturday,
                            >> >> > October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM
                            >> >> > Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
                            >> >> >
                            >> >> > First, was there a reply to Mike's questions that I
                            >> >> > missed?
                            >> >> >
                            >> >> > > Could you define "'real' opportunity to have
                            >> >> > input" in terms of how that
                            >> >> > > would be different from the last Citizen Forum -
                            >> >> > which had city and state
                            >> >> > > officials giving presentations and taking
                            >> >> > questions/comments from the
                            >> >> > > audience?
                            >> >> >
                            >> >> > If that's what's planned for this one, you might
                            >> >> > call it an East Isthmus
                            >> >> > Infrastructure Information Forum or somthing like
                            >> >> > that, but NOT a CITIZEN
                            >> >> > forum. I join all who went to the last one
                            >> >> > anticipating a forum by and for
                            >> >> > the people who live here and were sorely
                            >> >> > disappointed.
                            >> >> >
                            >> >> > Karolyn Beebe
                            >> >> >
                            >> >> >
                            >> >>
                            >> >>
                            >> >> __________________________________________________
                            >> >> Do You Yahoo!?
                            >> >> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                            >> >> http://personals.yahoo.com
                            >> >>
                            >> >> To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                            >> >>
                            >> >> To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> >>
                            >> >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            >> einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> >>
                            >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >> >>
                            >> >>
                            >> >>
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                            >> >
                            >> >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> >
                            >> >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> >
                            >> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                            >>
                            >>To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >>
                            >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >>
                            >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >In Community,
                            >
                            >Rebecca Krantz, Facilitator
                            >East Isthmus Neighborhoods Planning Council
                            >2425 Atwood Avenue
                            >Madison, WI 53704
                            >(608) 204-0834
                            >
                            >"Humans cannot engage in group activity successfully without
                            >leadership....Someone, at least one person, must think about the effort as
                            >a whole and not only about her or his individual role in it in order for
                            >the group effort to succeed." -- Harvey Jackins
                            >
                            >
                            >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • Robert Gibbons
                            There are hundreds of vacant slots to fill on the East Washington Reconstruction Work group! Thanks to Kitty and Rebecca and EINPC for creating a forum for
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 10, 2001
                              There are hundreds of vacant slots to fill on the East Washington
                              Reconstruction Work group!

                              Thanks to Kitty and Rebecca and EINPC for creating a forum for Neighborhood
                              VOICES not those of politicians!

                              I hope to talk with each and everyone of you on Saturday morning!

                              Working TOGETHER we can accomplish great things!

                              God Bless America
                              Robert Gibbons, Chair
                              East Washington Reconstruction Work Group

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Randy Glysch" <rglysch@...>
                              To: <einpc@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:30 PM
                              Subject: Re: [einpc] Citizen Forum feedback


                              > I think the Planning Issues Committee and especially Kitty Bonde deserve a
                              > great deal of credit and thanks for putting together the forum on
                              Saturday.
                              > I would second Kitty's suggestion that if you want something different to
                              > happen, then get involved in the process, don't just sit there and
                              > complain, do something about it. Put some of that negative energy to some
                              > good use, help the EINPC with these sorts of events. Let's work together
                              > to make the process a better one for all residents of the East Isthmus
                              area!
                              >
                              > Randy Glysch, Co-Chair
                              > EINPC
                              >
                              >
                              > >As Kitty said in her earlier message, the EINPC greatly appreciates input
                              > >about what sort of forums people would like to have. Of course, it's too
                              > >late to make extensive changes to the format of this Saturday's Forum,
                              but
                              > >we will take this feedback into consideration for future events.
                              > >
                              > >It is always disappointing when people come to an event expecting to be
                              > >listened to and instead are talked at; however, informational forums are
                              an
                              > >important part of a healthy democracy as well; if people don't know
                              > >something is going on, they can't express their opinions about it. We
                              will
                              > >try to be as clear as possible about which type of "forum" any given
                              event
                              > >is going to be.
                              > >
                              > >By the way, this event, like the previous two Citizen Forums, is
                              completely
                              > >volunteer-organized; unlike some EINPC activities, staff have done almost
                              > >none of the work to make this happen. This speaks well of the Planning
                              > >Issues Committee. It also means that Kitty's invitation to get involved
                              if
                              > >you want something different to happen is a serious one; without citizen
                              > >involvement in making "forums" happen, neither getting talked at nor
                              > >getting listened to will be possible!
                              > >
                              > >Grumbling on your way out the door does not make change happen; working
                              > >together with your fellow citizens does.
                              > >
                              > >Besides this sort of informational forum and possible future forums of
                              > >other formats, the EINPC has a committee gearing up to work on East
                              > >Washington Avenue. Watch for an announcement of its next meeting time
                              soon.
                              > >
                              > >-Rebecca, EINPC Facilitator
                              > >
                              > >At 01:58 PM 10/10/2001 -0500, you wrote:
                              > >>Karolyn is exactly right. The mayor & bigwigs on city staff breeze
                              > >>in, give a few kind words and breeze out. We are then left to talk
                              > >>amongst ourselves. Though there is a lot of agreement on issues
                              > >>*intra-* neighborhood, our views of how things in the neighborhood
                              > >>should go are often very different from those of the inhabitants of
                              > >>210 MLK, Jr. Blvd. A lot of that is because they never stick around
                              > >>to actually *listen* to us. Then, when specific neighborhood issues
                              > >>are brought up to city officials in other venues they profess never
                              > >>to have heard such ideas, then put them down as opinions of one
                              > >>disgruntled citizen. Well, in their minds, that's right, they didn't
                              > >>hang around to hear them from the many of us who do agree on
                              > >>neighborhood issues.
                              > >>
                              > >>In fact, we have come to a consensus on many, many neighborhood
                              > >>issues in the form of the Census Tract 20 process (SASY area) and
                              > >>other Census Tract, Better Urban Infill Development (BUILD) and other
                              > >>plans of east isthmus neighborhoods. And theoretically, the city as
                              > >>a whole has bought into our vision by adopting the plans. There is a
                              > >>lot of really good, pro-neighborhood stuff in these recently adopted
                              > >>plans.
                              > >>
                              > >>But these plans carried no weight on, for example, the E. Wash
                              > >>Strategic Advisory Committee. Though there is much in our
                              > >>neighborhood plans that focuses on reigning in the thundering motor
                              > >>herds on main thoroughfares and other neighborhood streets, those
                              > >>measures were brushed aside as parochial ("This is a federally funded
                              > >>state highway" was the oft stated refrain; the implication was that
                              > >>you don't count if you live in the area; only long-distance, out of
                              > >>town commuters are important). Yet pedestrian safety, bike mobility
                              > >>and transit figure heavily into our neighborhood plans, again,
                              > >>something agreed to by the city in its plan adoption process. But
                              > >>when it comes down to actually designing (such as the work of the E.
                              > >>Wash Strategic Advisory Committee) and laying down asphalt for these
                              > >>facilities, the default mode is to make the roads more conducive to
                              > >>more and faster automobile traffic. At this meeting, take a look at
                              > >>the plans for specific East Wash intersections: First Street/E. Wash
                              > >>intersection and the Milwaukee/North/E. Wash intersection are slated
                              > >>to be widened and equipped with interstate-style, flying right turn
                              > >>lanes. This will require pedestrians to a) risk their lives and b)
                              > >>spend several minutes waiting for several lights to cross at each of
                              > >>many pedestrian "islands." This sort of 1950's design is deadly to
                              > >>pedestrians. It militates against building a sense of neighborhood
                              > >>scale to the street - something boldly called for in the Census
                              > >>Tract 20 and the BUILD plans.
                              > >>
                              > >>We can bring some appropriate scale to the street *and* provide a
                              > >>major corridor for downtown traffic. It is *not* an either/or
                              > >>situation (I can hear the cries from the city now: "Stop picking on
                              > >>cars!"). But the city has to get out of their highway building
                              > >>mindset and begin providing strong incentives for rapid, cheap and
                              > >>convenient commutes by other than single occupant motor vehicles. It
                              > >>is doable and the demand is there (if you doubt me, then why do so
                              > >>many businesses along E. Wash spend the bucks on the rafts of signs
                              > >>stating: "NO PARK AND RIDE"?) The city could begin by dedicating High
                              > >>Occupancy Vehicle lanes on E. Wash for direct (i.e. not rambling
                              > >>along tiny neighborhood streets) and frequent (every 5 minutes during
                              > >>rush hour, every 10 minutes all other times) bus service for high
                              > >>volume roads such as E. Wash. They could also give deep, scaled
                              > >>discounts for people who drive in to parking ramps with more than one
                              > >>person in the car (1/2 off for 2 people; 75% off for 3 people; free
                              > >>for 4 or more.) They could also institute mandated Transportation
                              > >>Demand Management programs such as Parking Cash Out for all new
                              > >>developments (especially downtown developments). That way we are
                              > >>making the most of *current* resources, rather than *creating* demand
                              > >>for ever wider municipal freeways.
                              > >>
                              > >>-Mike Barrett
                              > >>
                              > >> >All of the
                              > >> >> forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                              > >> >> your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                              > >> >> forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough
                              > >> >
                              > >> >Kitty,
                              > >> >
                              > >> >The only forum I'm aware of took place at the church around 2 years
                              ago. I
                              > >> >don't recall what led people to think it would be a first time
                              organized
                              > >> >opportunity to share ideas about what we wanted to see in our east
                              isthmus
                              > >> >neighborhoods. City officials were expected to listen or answer
                              questions.
                              > >> >I was happy to see Mayor Bauman, Larry Nelson, David Dryer and others.
                              > >>As it
                              > >> >grew more obvious that again we were only being offered choices from
                              the
                              > >> >city's agenda, people grumbeled in the hall or left.
                              > >> >
                              > >> >Karolyn
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >----- Original Message -----
                              > >> >From: "Kirsten Bonde" <kittybonde@...>
                              > >> >To: <einpc@yahoogroups.com>
                              > >> >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:45 AM
                              > >> >Subject: Re: [einpc] Reminder - Citizen Forum
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >> Hello Karolyn,
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> As the chair of the Planning Issues Committee, I
                              > >> >> replied to Mike's questions directly via email. If
                              > >> >> you, or others, have concerns about the way the forums
                              > >> >> have been organized, your input and participation in
                              > >> >> the committee is welcome and encouraged. All of the
                              > >> >> forums so far have been organized "by the people" and
                              > >> >> your email was the first critique I had heard that the
                              > >> >> forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough. We have
                              > >> >> received many positive comments from others about
                              > >> >> these events previously.
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> If you or others are concerned about how these events
                              > >> >> are put together, please get involved! We are doing
                              > >> >> our best to connect residents with the people who have
                              > >> >> decision making power and would appreciate more direct
                              > >> >> input on further improving our efforts. As announced
                              > >> >> via the egroups list, Planning Issues meetings are
                              > >> >> open to everyone and the next one is tonight from 7 to
                              > >> >> 8:30 pm at the Atwood Center. If you have any further
                              > >> >> questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me
                              > >> >> at kittybonde@... or call me at 240-9722.
                              > >> >> Thanks for your input.
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> Kitty Bonde
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> --- Karolyn Beebe <keedos@...> wrote:
                              > >> >> > About the "Citizen Forum" on Saturday,
                              > >> >> > October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM
                              > >> >> > Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago, Downstairs
                              > >> >> >
                              > >> >> > First, was there a reply to Mike's questions that I
                              > >> >> > missed?
                              > >> >> >
                              > >> >> > > Could you define "'real' opportunity to have
                              > >> >> > input" in terms of how that
                              > >> >> > > would be different from the last Citizen Forum -
                              > >> >> > which had city and state
                              > >> >> > > officials giving presentations and taking
                              > >> >> > questions/comments from the
                              > >> >> > > audience?
                              > >> >> >
                              > >> >> > If that's what's planned for this one, you might
                              > >> >> > call it an East Isthmus
                              > >> >> > Infrastructure Information Forum or somthing like
                              > >> >> > that, but NOT a CITIZEN
                              > >> >> > forum. I join all who went to the last one
                              > >> >> > anticipating a forum by and for
                              > >> >> > the people who live here and were sorely
                              > >> >> > disappointed.
                              > >> >> >
                              > >> >> > Karolyn Beebe
                              > >> >> >
                              > >> >> >
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> __________________________________________________
                              > >> >> Do You Yahoo!?
                              > >> >> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                              > >> >> http://personals.yahoo.com
                              > >> >>
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                              > >> >>
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                              einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >> >>
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                              > >> einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                              > >> >
                              > >> >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                              > >>
                              > >>To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                              > >>
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                              > >>
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                              > >
                              > >In Community,
                              > >
                              > >Rebecca Krantz, Facilitator
                              > >East Isthmus Neighborhoods Planning Council
                              > >2425 Atwood Avenue
                              > >Madison, WI 53704
                              > >(608) 204-0834
                              > >
                              > >"Humans cannot engage in group activity successfully without
                              > >leadership....Someone, at least one person, must think about the effort
                              as
                              > >a whole and not only about her or his individual role in it in order for
                              > >the group effort to succeed." -- Harvey Jackins
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                              einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To Post a message, send it to: einpc@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > To Subscribe, send a blank message to: einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                              >
                              >
                            • Michael D. Barrett
                              ... Absolutely. And I thank Kitty and everyone else who was involved in putting this together. We should all be there, on Saturday, October 13, 2001 9:00AM
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 10, 2001
                                Re:
                                >I think the Planning Issues Committee and especially Kitty Bonde deserve a
                                >great deal of credit and thanks for putting together the forum on Saturday.


                                Absolutely. And I thank Kitty and everyone else who was involved in
                                putting this together. We should all be there, on Saturday, October
                                13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago,
                                Downstairs.

                                >I would second Kitty's suggestion that if you want something different to
                                >happen, then get involved in the process,


                                Well, since it is being held at a church, I'll contribute by pulling
                                a Dustin Hoffman just as soon as all of the bigwigs have entered.
                                That way they'll *have* to stay and listen to what we have to say!

                                >don't just sit there and
                                >complain, do something about it.


                                I'd suggest you check the record of who researched, wrote,
                                rabble-roused, advocated and voted for a good chunk of the
                                neighborhood-friendly stuff (i.e., the non-boilerplate) in the
                                specific plans I cited. You might also want to tune into what is
                                currently happening in the SASY neighborhood.

                                Meanwhile, I will continue to point out the tendency of our city to
                                ignore plans that many, many citizens have worked countless hours on
                                (it isn't just happening here either - the city's Peripheral
                                Development Plan, for example, was abandoned nearly as soon as it was
                                adopted - TWICE!). As you can see, the negativity is not on my
                                part. It lies in the city's continued negation of well-thought out
                                plans.

                                > Put some of that negative energy to some
                                >good use, help the EINPC with these sorts of events.


                                I haven't the foggiest clue as to what you are referring to here. If
                                suggesting a more neighborhood-friendly form of transportation - and
                                providing details on how it could be done - is negative, well, then
                                we have very different views of what negative means.

                                > Let's work together
                                >to make the process a better one for all residents of the East Isthmus area!

                                Oh, let's shall!

                                -Mike Barrett
                              • Kirsten Bonde
                                Hi Karolyn, My understanding is that there have been two forums so far, the first of which I was not involved in myself and was unable to attend. The most
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 11, 2001
                                  Hi Karolyn,

                                  My understanding is that there have been two forums so
                                  far, the first of which I was not involved in myself
                                  and was unable to attend. The most recent one
                                  happened last fall at Trinity Lutheran Church and
                                  EINPC received a lot of positive feedback about it
                                  from residents. I understand that it can be
                                  frustrating finding out about a community issue when
                                  people in power have already made certain key
                                  decisions. I believe that what EINPC can do, and is
                                  trying to do with the forums, involves educating
                                  residents about issues so they can participate in the
                                  process of creating city agendas in an informed way.
                                  Part of that involves trying to find the right times
                                  and opportunities to make our voices heard.

                                  I have to confess that I'm somewhat of an idealist,
                                  but I truly believe that on a smaller scale,
                                  participatory democracy can work effectively. To me,
                                  that means "city agendas" do not necessarily have to
                                  be separate from "the people's agenda." As EINPC
                                  continues to learn and grow, we will become better at
                                  fullfilling our mission and an important part of that
                                  is input on whether what we are doing is working or
                                  not. I appreciate having a chance to understand more
                                  about what concerns you were aware of from attending a
                                  past forum. Please let me know if you have any other
                                  suggestions and always feel free to come to a Planning
                                  Issues Committee meeting for more opportunities to
                                  have input.

                                  Kitty

                                  --- Karolyn Beebe <keedos@...> wrote:
                                  > All of the
                                  > > forums so far have been organized "by the people"
                                  > and
                                  > > your email was the first critique I had heard that
                                  > the
                                  > > forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough
                                  >
                                  > Kitty,
                                  >
                                  > The only forum I'm aware of took place at the church
                                  > around 2 years ago. I
                                  > don't recall what led people to think it would be a
                                  > first time organized
                                  > opportunity to share ideas about what we wanted to
                                  > see in our east isthmus
                                  > neighborhoods. City officials were expected to
                                  > listen or answer questions.
                                  > I was happy to see Mayor Bauman, Larry Nelson, David
                                  > Dryer and others. As it
                                  > grew more obvious that again we were only being
                                  > offered choices from the
                                  > city's agenda, people grumbeled in the hall or left.
                                  >
                                  > Karolyn
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Kirsten Bonde" <kittybonde@...>
                                  > To: <einpc@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 8:45 AM
                                  > Subject: Re: [einpc] Reminder - Citizen Forum
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Hello Karolyn,
                                  > >
                                  > > As the chair of the Planning Issues Committee, I
                                  > > replied to Mike's questions directly via email.
                                  > If
                                  > > you, or others, have concerns about the way the
                                  > forums
                                  > > have been organized, your input and participation
                                  > in
                                  > > the committee is welcome and encouraged. All of
                                  > the
                                  > > forums so far have been organized "by the people"
                                  > and
                                  > > your email was the first critique I had heard that
                                  > the
                                  > > forums were not "Citizen"-oriented enough. We have
                                  > > received many positive comments from others about
                                  > > these events previously.
                                  > >
                                  > > If you or others are concerned about how these
                                  > events
                                  > > are put together, please get involved! We are
                                  > doing
                                  > > our best to connect residents with the people who
                                  > have
                                  > > decision making power and would appreciate more
                                  > direct
                                  > > input on further improving our efforts. As
                                  > announced
                                  > > via the egroups list, Planning Issues meetings are
                                  > > open to everyone and the next one is tonight from
                                  > 7 to
                                  > > 8:30 pm at the Atwood Center. If you have any
                                  > further
                                  > > questions or concerns, please feel free to contact
                                  > me
                                  > > at kittybonde@... or call me at 240-9722.
                                  > > Thanks for your input.
                                  > >
                                  > > Kitty Bonde
                                  > >
                                  > > --- Karolyn Beebe <keedos@...> wrote:
                                  > > > About the "Citizen Forum" on Saturday,
                                  > > > October 13, 2001 9:00AM - 12:00PM
                                  > > > Trinity Lutheran Church, 1904 Winnebago,
                                  > Downstairs
                                  > > >
                                  > > > First, was there a reply to Mike's questions
                                  > that I
                                  > > > missed?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > Could you define "'real' opportunity to have
                                  > > > input" in terms of how that
                                  > > > > would be different from the last Citizen Forum
                                  > -
                                  > > > which had city and state
                                  > > > > officials giving presentations and taking
                                  > > > questions/comments from the
                                  > > > > audience?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If that's what's planned for this one, you might
                                  > > > call it an East Isthmus
                                  > > > Infrastructure Information Forum or somthing
                                  > like
                                  > > > that, but NOT a CITIZEN
                                  > > > forum. I join all who went to the last one
                                  > > > anticipating a forum by and for
                                  > > > the people who live here and were sorely
                                  > > > disappointed.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Karolyn Beebe
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > __________________________________________________
                                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                                  > > http://personals.yahoo.com
                                  > >
                                  > > To Post a message, send it to:
                                  > einpc@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > To Subscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  > einpc-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  > einpc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >


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