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Re: [ise_users] Re: In the Eiffel Community's interest

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  • Thomas Beale
    for what it s worth, I think that experienced OO people might reasonably expect to find examples of the particularities of a new language they want to learn;
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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      for what it's worth, I think that experienced OO people might reasonably
      expect to find examples of the particularities of a new language they
      want to learn; they don't really need to re-learn the theory
      again...there do tend to be some code fragments on ISE's site, but
      perhaps it needs some kind soul to build a page of examples of each
      language feature?

      - thomas beale
    • Christian Lemer
      ... Maybe most of the OO programmers need to learn the theory again ;-) In my point of view, Eiffel should be the reference and you may add examples on how to
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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        Thomas Beale <thomas@...> writes:

        > for what it's worth, I think that experienced OO people might reasonably
        > expect to find examples of the particularities of a new language they
        > want to learn; they don't really need to re-learn the theory
        > again...there do tend to be some code fragments on ISE's site, but
        > perhaps it needs some kind soul to build a page of examples of each
        > language feature?

        Maybe most of the OO programmers need to learn the theory again ;-)

        In my point of view, Eiffel should be the reference and you may add
        examples on how to implement the different theoretical constructs in
        other languages.

        The problem is that you may not find an equivalent construct at the
        syntax level... If it was possible, then we could imagine an automatic
        translator!

        Cheers,

        Chris.

        --
        Christian Lemer
        Service de Conformation des Macromolecules Biologiques et de Bioinformatique
        Universite Libre de Bruxelles Brussels Free University
        chris@... +32.2.648.52.00 http://www.ucmb.ulb.ac.be/~chris

        The README file said /"\
        "Requires Windows 98, XP or better." \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
        So... I installed it on GNU/Linux! X AGAINST HTML MAIL
        / \
      • Matthew Robinson
        I agree with Thomas. I have read OOSC2, and it was a revelation, but I don t want to have to thumb through it whenever I need to remind myself how to write a
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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          I agree with Thomas. I have read OOSC2, and it was a revelation, but I don't
          want to have to thumb through it whenever I need to remind myself how to
          write a bit of Eiffel. I don't use Eiffel as my main language and it would
          be very handy to have a ready selection of Eiffel examples to refer to when I
          can't remember a particular Eiffel construct.

          Matthew Robinson

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Thomas Beale [SMTP:thomas@...]
          > Sent: 01 July 2002 08:08
          > To: ise_users@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [ise_users] Re: In the Eiffel Community's interest
          >
          >
          > for what it's worth, I think that experienced OO people might reasonably
          > expect to find examples of the particularities of a new language they
          > want to learn; they don't really need to re-learn the theory
          > again...there do tend to be some code fragments on ISE's site, but
          > perhaps it needs some kind soul to build a page of examples of each
          > language feature?
          >
          > - thomas beale
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > ise_users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • geiroves
          Hello, you said:
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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            Hello,

            you said:

            <<I must say that I'm really surprised by Geir Ove statement when he
            is coming from the Smalltalk world. I have not seen any "examples"
            floating around...and I could say "how many programmers use Smalltalk
            out there...really?" >>

            But that was exactly my point!! Learning Smalltalk took a h... of a
            lot of time due to lack of examples, and the same lack of examples is
            probably not serving the Smalltalk community either!


            Geir Ove


            --- In ise_users@y..., Gary Smithrud <kb0wno@y...> wrote:
            > Just to add a slightly different point of view, but
            > I'm more in the middle of the road on "learning from
            > examples." Yes, it is very good to read the book,
            > because it really does change the way that you think
            > about things. Even I, who had probably had 14 years
            > of OO development (started with Smalltalk,
            > Object-Lisp, CLOS, Neon (ugh), and C++ (ugh++)...and
            > also a little Object-C) when I read the book, had many
            > concepts clarified by reading it.
            >
            > This does not mean that you can't learn anything from
            > examples...you just have to take examples with a large
            > grain of salt. Examples are typically written quickly
            > to show how to do one particular usage of some item
            > (not always) and not the best way to write an
            > application. Furthermore, getting source code from
            > the internet (you can get the source for many projects
            > out there), you may not get the code from a good
            > Eiffel programmer (I'm not pointing anyone out...just
            > that it is a possibility.)
            >
            > As for "how many programmers", there are quite a few
            > out there and many more that wish they were. This
            > doesn't mean that they are "free" to provide source
            > code of stuff that they are working on. And so on.
            > It is true that there is a bunch of crappy Java
            > examples all over the place. Is it good to only learn
            > from them either? Not really. I must say that I'm
            > really surprised by Geir Ove statement when he is
            > coming from the Smalltalk world. I have not seen any
            > "examples" floating around...and I could say "how many
            > programmers use Smalltalk out there...really?" You
            > can't really tell by "example" code to determine how
            > many people are using it, but my guess is that there
            > are more Eiffel programmers than Smalltalk.
            >
            > Gary M. Smithrud
            >
            > --- Christian Lemer <chris@u...> wrote:
            > > "geiroves" <geiroves@o...> writes:
            > >
            > > > Hello,
            > > >
            > > > I have many years of Smalltalk programming behind
            > > me (7+). I do not
            > > > want to start a religious discussion on how to
            > > learn, but if the
            > > > Eiffel community want to survive, and preferably
            > > grow, I think some
            > > > attitudes may have to change:
            > >
            > > Will you kill the Eiffel programmers? ;-)
            > >
            > > The community is there... happy to use their
            > > favorite tool.
            > >
            > > If you want to use it, you are welcome... but maybe
            > > you should try to
            > > adapt a little also.
            > >
            > > Really, the OOSC2 was a real discovery for me. I
            > > really think it's the
            > > book that every OO programmers should have read
            > > before programming
            > > it's first important project.
            > >
            > > This was just an advice... if you don't want to hear
            > > from it... just
            > > forget it, but I really think you loose somethiing.
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Just because someone learnt the "hard way", does
            > > not mean that
            > > > everyone else has to do the same.
            > >
            > > I think it was the "easiest" way... Sorry!
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Examples are a good way to get started, I
            > > personally (and many with
            > > > me) find it preferable to study hard cord
            > > referencse at a later
            > > > time.
            > >
            > > OOSC2 is not a reference, it's a book for
            > > teaching... something like a
            > > tutorial... in fact it's full of examples!
            > >
            > > There are plenty of examples... take a look at all
            > > the libraries!
            > >
            > > http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_eiffel.html
            > >
            > > (see the "Start here" section).
            > >
            > > http://smalleiffel.loria.fr/general/resources.html
            > >
            > > If you are looking for a "Hello World" example...
            > > these are in the
            > > OOSC2!
            > >
            > > >
            > > > If there are no examples out there available, how
            > > many programmers
            > > > are there, really....
            > >
            > > If you really think the number of programmers is
            > > important, maybe you
            > > should try java... ;-)
            > >
            > > Sorry but learning by example is so disastrous that
            > > I could not resist
            > > to argue! Maybe I'm a little bit too sarcastic, but
            > > I have to program
            > > in Java for the moment and it's so ... humm... let's
            > > say
            > > ... uncomfortable...
            > >
            > > If you invest some time learning Eiffel, I think
            > > you'll never regret
            > > it...
            > >
            > > Chris.
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Geir Ove
            > > >
            > > > --- In ise_users@y..., Christian Lemer
            > > <chris@u...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Did you take a look at THE Eiffel reference: I
            > > mean OOSC2?
            > > > >
            > > > > Eiffel is not a language you should learn by
            > > example. (My point of
            > > > > view is that we should NEVER try to learn by
            > > exampel but that's
            > > > > another subject...).
            > > > >
            > > > > You should really take time to read it to really
            > > understand the
            > > > > fundamental differences between "OO-like"
            > > languages (i.e. java) and
            > > > > real OO development!
            > > > >
            > > > > Cheers,
            > > > >
            > > > > Chris.
            > > > >
            > > > > "geiroves" <geiroves@o...> writes:
            > > > >
            > > > > > Hello,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I am struggling to learn Eiffel :-), and are
            > > looking for
            > > > examples.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I have looked at:
            > > > > >
            > >
            > http://efsa.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/view/Main/WebHome
            > > > > >
            > > > > > and refrences from this page, but in vain:
            > > Lots of talk & papers,
            > > > no
            > > > > > examples.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The help file that comes with 5.1 is very
            > > wordy, but also fail to
            > > > > > provide examples that compile. I used 3 days
            > > to figure out the
            > > > > > agents. It would be fine with examples to
            > > speed up the learning
            > > > > > process.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Please help.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Geir Ove
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
            > > to:
            > > > > > ise_users-unsubscribe@y...
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --
            > > > > Christian Lemer
            > > > > Service de Conformation des Macromolecules
            > > Biologiques et de
            > > > Bioinformatique
            > > > > Universite Libre de Bruxelles
            > > Brussels Free
            > > > University
            > > > > chris@u... +32.2.648.52.00
            > > http://www.ucmb.ulb.ac.be/~chris
            > > > >
            > > > > The README file said
            > > /"\
            > > > > "Requires Windows 98, XP or better." \
            > > / ASCII RIBBON
            > > > CAMPAIGN
            > > > > So... I installed it on GNU/Linux!
            > > X AGAINST
            > > > HTML MAIL
            > > > > /
            > > \
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > ise_users-unsubscribe@y...
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > Christian Lemer
            > > Service de Conformation des Macromolecules
            > > Biologiques et de Bioinformatique
            > > Universite Libre de Bruxelles
            > > Brussels Free University
            > > chris@u... +32.2.648.52.00
            > > http://www.ucmb.ulb.ac.be/~chris
            > >
            > >
            > === message truncated ===
            >
            >
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          • geiroves
            Hello, Examples should not be the only source for learning, but thet can help get people up and running before they give up! Not everyone are as persistent as
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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              Hello,

              Examples should not be the only source for learning, but thet can
              help get people up and running before they give up! Not everyone are
              as persistent as some of us.... A healty community of users will
              always mean that there will be a lot of programmers that produce "bad
              code", but at least it will keep the tool-makers and the language
              alive: It is up to the "perfectionist" to filter out the bad examples
              and read the apropriate theory as well.


              Geir Ove


              --- In ise_users@y..., Thomas Beale <thomas@d...> wrote:
              >
              > for what it's worth, I think that experienced OO people might
              reasonably
              > expect to find examples of the particularities of a new language
              they
              > want to learn; they don't really need to re-learn the theory
              > again...there do tend to be some code fragments on ISE's site, but
              > perhaps it needs some kind soul to build a page of examples of each
              > language feature?
              >
              > - thomas beale
            • geiroves
              Hello, I agree. And I can t understand that examples are that bad: People who don t want to invest time to learn Eiffel will never learn it even if you throw
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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                Hello,

                I agree. And I can't understand that examples are that bad: People
                who don't want to invest time to learn Eiffel will never learn it
                even if you throw the OOSC2 reference to them. People who do want to
                learn Eiffel can get up and running fast with examples, and then dive
                into the reference to get more "meat" on the bones...

                I personally find this a more pleasing (and faster) way to learn

                Geir Ove




                --- In ise_users@y..., "Matthew Robinson" <matthew.robinson@i...>
                wrote:
                > I agree with Thomas. I have read OOSC2, and it was a revelation,
                but I don't
                > want to have to thumb through it whenever I need to remind myself
                how to
                > write a bit of Eiffel. I don't use Eiffel as my main language and
                it would
                > be very handy to have a ready selection of Eiffel examples to refer
                to when I
                > can't remember a particular Eiffel construct.
                >
                > Matthew Robinson
                >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Thomas Beale [SMTP:thomas@d...]
                > > Sent: 01 July 2002 08:08
                > > To: ise_users@y...
                > > Subject: Re: [ise_users] Re: In the Eiffel Community's interest
                > >
                > >
                > > for what it's worth, I think that experienced OO people might
                reasonably
                > > expect to find examples of the particularities of a new language
                they
                > > want to learn; they don't really need to re-learn the theory
                > > again...there do tend to be some code fragments on ISE's site,
                but
                > > perhaps it needs some kind soul to build a page of examples of
                each
                > > language feature?
                > >
                > > - thomas beale
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > ise_users-unsubscribe@y...
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
              • Emmanuel STAPF [ES]
                Talking about examples, the EiffelStudio 5.1 delivery contains about 100 examples that are located in $ISE_EIFFEL. Most of them describe our libraries and are
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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                  Talking about examples, the EiffelStudio 5.1 delivery contains about 100
                  examples that are located in $ISE_EIFFEL. Most of them describe our
                  libraries and are documented. There is also the example used for the
                  guided tour of EiffelStudio which gives you an overview of what is
                  Eiffel and how to use EiffelStudio. I would definitely recommend it.

                  In addition to that, we made two introduction to Eiffel available: one
                  short and another one a little bit longer.

                  Given what we have: what are the examples you would like to be added in
                  our delivery?

                  Regards,
                  Manu

                  PS: most documentation which is available from EiffelStudio is also
                  available from our web site at: http://docs.eiffel.com/. In particular
                  check out:
                  - http://docs.eiffel.com/general/guided_tour/language/invitation-00.html
                  - http://docs.eiffel.com/general/guided_tour/language/tutorial-00.html
                  - http://docs.eiffel.com/general/guided_tour/environment/index.html
                • geiroves
                  Hello, Thanks for your answer. First of all I want to say that I think Eiffel is a great language (what I have read so far), and Eiffel Studio is impressive!
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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                    Hello,

                    Thanks for your answer. First of all I want to say that I think
                    Eiffel is a great language (what I have read so far), and Eiffel
                    Studio is impressive!

                    May be I am demanding, but I would like a more tutorial like
                    introdudction that goes through example by example.

                    Yes, there are ~100 examples, however, I have failed to find **any
                    description** of these examples in the PDF's that came with the
                    download: tutorial.pdf, tour.pdf & invitation.pdf.

                    I even downloaded new files from: http://www.eiffel.com/doc/manuals/
                    (A page that is hard to find starting with the home page...)

                    IMHO both tutorial.pdf and tour.pdf are very "wordy": I think they
                    uses way to many words to describe how to open and compile a project
                    and describe the differences between ACE and EPR files.

                    I am very humble when it comes down to all the work put down here; I
                    have written user-guides myself, so I understand the work involved. I
                    give this feedback so that hopefully things can improve over time: I
                    think this would make it easier for "mortals" to get started with ISE
                    Eiffel Stuido :-), and make the system more approachable
                    for "outsiders" like me (outsider: not for long I hope!).
                    Don't forget that things all you pro's take for granted, is not self-
                    explaining to others..

                    There is also reference to wrong directories (bench) that indicates
                    that some updating needs to be done in the tutorials.

                    Navigating the Eiffel.com homepage is also difficult: There is a lot
                    of information that cannot be reached by browsing from the Home Page:
                    One has to know about the locations to find it.

                    Not whining, just feedback; I still think improvements mentioned
                    would be in ISE's and Eiffel's interest.

                    best wishes
                    Geir Ove

                    -----------------------------------------------------

                    --- In ise_users@y..., "Emmanuel STAPF [ES]" <manus@e...> wrote:
                    > Talking about examples, the EiffelStudio 5.1 delivery contains
                    about 100
                    > examples that are located in $ISE_EIFFEL. Most of them describe our
                    > libraries and are documented. There is also the example used for the
                    > guided tour of EiffelStudio which gives you an overview of what is
                    > Eiffel and how to use EiffelStudio. I would definitely recommend it.
                    >
                    > In addition to that, we made two introduction to Eiffel available:
                    one
                    > short and another one a little bit longer.
                    >
                    > Given what we have: what are the examples you would like to be
                    added in
                    > our delivery?
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Manu
                    >
                    > PS: most documentation which is available from EiffelStudio is also
                    > available from our web site at: http://docs.eiffel.com/. In
                    particular
                    > check out:
                    > - http://docs.eiffel.com/general/guided_tour/language/invitation-
                    00.html
                    > - http://docs.eiffel.com/general/guided_tour/language/tutorial-
                    00.html
                    > - http://docs.eiffel.com/general/guided_tour/environment/index.html
                  • Ian Joyner
                    Interesting thread on examples. I still marvel at the number of facts about software that Eiffel s assertion mechanism can find out, from lurking defects to
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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                      Interesting thread on examples. I still marvel at the number of facts
                      about software that Eiffel's assertion mechanism can find out, from
                      lurking defects to the nature of the software. I'm building most of my
                      stuff as one huge example of how to best use these facilities. Of course
                      we can probably do with some more in-a-nutshell examples.

                      Since most of my work is in interfacing to someone else's framework in
                      another OO language, I find Eiffel's assertions help discover the
                      properties of that framework, that are not documented (although it has
                      to be said the documentation is pretty good and thorough). Eiffel adds
                      an extra degree of expressing the dependencies between different
                      parameters.

                      I actually start by making the preconditions pretty tight, letting them
                      trigger to find the exceptions, and that way I understand the underlying
                      framework much better, as well as providing a lot of automatic testing.

                      This of course leads into my headline. Some of you may have seen this
                      story, linked to by ACM Technews:

                      http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=581&ncid=581&e=7&u=/nm/20020628/
                      tc_nm/tech_software_dc_1

                      Interesting reading. Perhaps the conclusion should scare people into
                      using Eiffel!

                      Ian
                    • bmeyer@eiffel.com
                      On the side of Ian Joyner s comments, let me mention work in progress done with Karine Arnout at ETH on extracting closet contracts from non- contracted
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 1, 2002
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                        On the side of Ian Joyner's comments, let me mention work in progress
                        done with Karine Arnout at ETH on extracting "closet contracts" from non-
                        contracted libraries, starting with .NET libraries:

                        http://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/meyer/ongoing/contract_extraction.pdf

                        It suggests that contracts are not a figment of the Eiffel programmer's
                        imagination but an intrinsic property of the software.

                        Please note that this is a draft and has a number of deficiencies; in particular
                        section 8 on comparing the application programmer's task when using a contracted
                        and uncontracted library is unfair and incomplete. The basic results of
                        the other sections, however, should be of interest. We intend to pursue
                        this analysis on other libraries; anyone interested in taking up a particular
                        library is welcome to contact us.

                        -- BM
                      • Gary Smithrud
                        I haven t been around anyone who was a beginner with OOP and wanted to learn (or were forced to), so I don t know how well it works with beginners (of course,
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
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                          I haven't been around anyone who was a beginner with
                          OOP and wanted to learn (or were forced to), so I
                          don't know how well it works with beginners (of
                          course, I am far removed from the first time
                          programmers as well.) I have been around people that
                          would not learn anything new...which truly amazes me.
                          One guy wrote everything in Perl...even when he wasn't
                          using Perl's regular expression stuff (maybe I should
                          have warn everyone to put their children to bed...this
                          is definitely nightmare material...:-). I do think
                          that the 1200 page book is likely scary for beginners
                          just because of it size.

                          --- Christian Lemer <chris@...> wrote:
                          > Gary Smithrud <kb0wno@...> writes:
                          >
                          > > Just to add a slightly different point of view,
                          > but
                          > > I'm more in the middle of the road on "learning
                          > from
                          > > examples." Yes, it is very good to read the book,
                          > > because it really does change the way that you
                          > think
                          > > about things. Even I, who had probably had 14
                          > years
                          > > of OO development (started with Smalltalk,
                          > > Object-Lisp, CLOS, Neon (ugh), and C++
                          > (ugh++)...and
                          > > also a little Object-C) when I read the book, had
                          > many
                          > > concepts clarified by reading it.
                          >
                          > That's exactly the feeling a had! In my opinion
                          > OOSC2 is the book that
                          > clarifies the OO programming! But I don't know
                          > really how well it does
                          > for beginners. Do you have any experience to report
                          > about people
                          > introduced to OO programming by reading OOSC2.
                          >
                          > Only one of our post-doc learned OO from scratch
                          > reading OOSC2 and he
                          > felt it was very natural and well explained (but
                          > he's quite smart). He
                          > was very disappointed when had to program in Java
                          > and try to find how
                          > to implement the concepts he learned... ;-)
                          >
                          > Cheers.
                          >
                          > Chris
                          >
                          > --
                          > Christian Lemer
                          > Service de Conformation des Macromolecules
                          > Biologiques et de Bioinformatique
                          > Universite Libre de Bruxelles
                          > Brussels Free University
                          > chris@... +32.2.648.52.00
                          > http://www.ucmb.ulb.ac.be/~chris
                          >
                          > The README file said /"\
                          > "Requires Windows 98, XP or better." \ /
                          > ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
                          > So... I installed it on GNU/Linux! X
                          > AGAINST HTML MAIL
                          > / \
                          >


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                        • Christian Lemer
                          ... Ok... it s big... but character size is big too ;-) It s a kind of very complete tutorial that teach you the analysis, the design and the programming from
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
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                            Gary Smithrud <kb0wno@...> writes:

                            > I haven't been around anyone who was a beginner with
                            > OOP and wanted to learn (or were forced to), so I
                            > don't know how well it works with beginners (of
                            > course, I am far removed from the first time
                            > programmers as well.) I have been around people that
                            > would not learn anything new...which truly amazes me.
                            > One guy wrote everything in Perl...even when he wasn't
                            > using Perl's regular expression stuff (maybe I should
                            > have warn everyone to put their children to bed...this
                            > is definitely nightmare material...:-). I do think
                            > that the 1200 page book is likely scary for beginners
                            > just because of it size.

                            Ok... it's big... but character size is big too ;-)

                            It's a kind of very complete tutorial that teach you the analysis, the
                            design and the programming from concepts to running program...

                            Of course you may follow some 'shortcuts' (that are also provided) to
                            go faster to the things you want to learn first... but my experience
                            it that it's easy to read and going trough the entire book worth the
                            effort.

                            Cheers,

                            Chris.

                            --
                            Christian Lemer
                            Service de Conformation des Macromolecules Biologiques et de Bioinformatique
                            Universite Libre de Bruxelles Brussels Free University
                            chris@... +32.2.648.52.00 http://www.ucmb.ulb.ac.be/~chris

                            The README file said /"\
                            "Requires Windows 98, XP or better." \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
                            So... I installed it on GNU/Linux! X AGAINST HTML MAIL
                            / \
                          • Gary Smithrud
                            Examples can be bad if they are poorly written and you take them as the way to do things. This is more of an issue with C++ and Java (you have to look no
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Examples can be bad if they are poorly written and you
                              take them as the way to do things. This is more of an
                              issue with C++ and Java (you have to look no further
                              than the libraries for these two languages to see bad
                              coding examples.) I've seen examples in C++ (many
                              years ago) that were nothing more than C code.
                              Learning OO from these examples would not be a good
                              idea.

                              An issue here is that we are really talking about two
                              different things. You are talking about using
                              examples to learn the syntax and Chris is talking
                              about using them to learn OO. Since you are
                              experienced with OO (except possibily multiple
                              inheritence issues) you would be able to recognize
                              poorly written OO code.

                              I would agree with Ian that there isn't a lot of
                              "in-a-nutshell" type examples, although
                              mirrored-image-ISE does provide many examples with
                              their releases. Although you looked on
                              sourceforge.net, there are some bigger projects that
                              might be fun to play with. EiffelOpenGL
                              (eifogl.sourceforge.net) is cool if you like doing 3D
                              graphics (or learning how to). Check out the CVS
                              version, though. There is also Goanna (web server).
                              You can also check out www.elj.com for links to a
                              bunch of stuff...has to be one of the messier web
                              pages I have ever seen...:-). It isn't updated
                              frequently, though, and I'm not sure if anyone is
                              currently maintaining it.

                              This conversation has been really weird with yahoo.com
                              getting messages in a strange order. I've probably
                              answered stuff that's already been answered...and I
                              didn't even see the original message until just now.

                              Gary.

                              --- geiroves <geiroves@...> wrote:
                              > Hello,
                              >
                              > I agree. And I can't understand that examples are
                              > that bad: People
                              > who don't want to invest time to learn Eiffel will
                              > never learn it
                              > even if you throw the OOSC2 reference to them.
                              > People who do want to
                              > learn Eiffel can get up and running fast with
                              > examples, and then dive
                              > into the reference to get more "meat" on the
                              > bones...
                              >
                              > I personally find this a more pleasing (and faster)
                              > way to learn
                              >
                              > Geir Ove
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In ise_users@y..., "Matthew Robinson"
                              > <matthew.robinson@i...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > I agree with Thomas. I have read OOSC2, and it
                              > was a revelation,
                              > but I don't
                              > > want to have to thumb through it whenever I need
                              > to remind myself
                              > how to
                              > > write a bit of Eiffel. I don't use Eiffel as my
                              > main language and
                              > it would
                              > > be very handy to have a ready selection of Eiffel
                              > examples to refer
                              > to when I
                              > > can't remember a particular Eiffel construct.
                              > >
                              > > Matthew Robinson
                              > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: Thomas Beale [SMTP:thomas@d...]
                              > > > Sent: 01 July 2002 08:08
                              > > > To: ise_users@y...
                              > > > Subject: Re: [ise_users] Re: In the Eiffel
                              > Community's interest
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > for what it's worth, I think that experienced OO
                              > people might
                              > reasonably
                              > > > expect to find examples of the particularities
                              > of a new language
                              > they
                              > > > want to learn; they don't really need to
                              > re-learn the theory
                              > > > again...there do tend to be some code fragments
                              > on ISE's site,
                              > but
                              > > > perhaps it needs some kind soul to build a page
                              > of examples of
                              > each
                              > > > language feature?
                              > > >
                              > > > - thomas beale
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                              > to:
                              > > > ise_users-unsubscribe@y...
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              >
                              >


                              __________________________________________________
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                            • geiroves
                              Hello, You pointed out an important fact: I was talking about examples as examples of syntax: Not OO principles! Thanks for clearing this up! Geir Ove
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
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                                Hello,

                                You pointed out an important fact: I was talking about examples as
                                examples of syntax: Not OO principles! Thanks for clearing this up!

                                Geir Ove

                                --- In ise_users@y..., Gary Smithrud <kb0wno@y...> wrote:
                                > Examples can be bad if they are poorly written and you
                                > take them as the way to do things. This is more of an
                                > issue with C++ and Java (you have to look no further
                                > than the libraries for these two languages to see bad
                                > coding examples.) I've seen examples in C++ (many
                                > years ago) that were nothing more than C code.
                                > Learning OO from these examples would not be a good
                                > idea.
                                >
                                > An issue here is that we are really talking about two
                                > different things. You are talking about using
                                > examples to learn the syntax and Chris is talking
                                > about using them to learn OO. Since you are
                                > experienced with OO (except possibily multiple
                                > inheritence issues) you would be able to recognize
                                > poorly written OO code.
                                >
                                > I would agree with Ian that there isn't a lot of
                                > "in-a-nutshell" type examples, although
                                > mirrored-image-ISE does provide many examples with
                                > their releases. Although you looked on
                                > sourceforge.net, there are some bigger projects that
                                > might be fun to play with. EiffelOpenGL
                                > (eifogl.sourceforge.net) is cool if you like doing 3D
                                > graphics (or learning how to). Check out the CVS
                                > version, though. There is also Goanna (web server).
                                > You can also check out www.elj.com for links to a
                                > bunch of stuff...has to be one of the messier web
                                > pages I have ever seen...:-). It isn't updated
                                > frequently, though, and I'm not sure if anyone is
                                > currently maintaining it.
                                >
                                > This conversation has been really weird with yahoo.com
                                > getting messages in a strange order. I've probably
                                > answered stuff that's already been answered...and I
                                > didn't even see the original message until just now.
                                >
                                > Gary.
                                >
                                > --- geiroves <geiroves@o...> wrote:
                                > > Hello,
                                > >
                                > > I agree. And I can't understand that examples are
                                > > that bad: People
                                > > who don't want to invest time to learn Eiffel will
                                > > never learn it
                                > > even if you throw the OOSC2 reference to them.
                                > > People who do want to
                                > > learn Eiffel can get up and running fast with
                                > > examples, and then dive
                                > > into the reference to get more "meat" on the
                                > > bones...
                                > >
                                > > I personally find this a more pleasing (and faster)
                                > > way to learn
                                > >
                                > > Geir Ove
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In ise_users@y..., "Matthew Robinson"
                                > > <matthew.robinson@i...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > I agree with Thomas. I have read OOSC2, and it
                                > > was a revelation,
                                > > but I don't
                                > > > want to have to thumb through it whenever I need
                                > > to remind myself
                                > > how to
                                > > > write a bit of Eiffel. I don't use Eiffel as my
                                > > main language and
                                > > it would
                                > > > be very handy to have a ready selection of Eiffel
                                > > examples to refer
                                > > to when I
                                > > > can't remember a particular Eiffel construct.
                                > > >
                                > > > Matthew Robinson
                                > > >
                                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > From: Thomas Beale [SMTP:thomas@d...]
                                > > > > Sent: 01 July 2002 08:08
                                > > > > To: ise_users@y...
                                > > > > Subject: Re: [ise_users] Re: In the Eiffel
                                > > Community's interest
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > for what it's worth, I think that experienced OO
                                > > people might
                                > > reasonably
                                > > > > expect to find examples of the particularities
                                > > of a new language
                                > > they
                                > > > > want to learn; they don't really need to
                                > > re-learn the theory
                                > > > > again...there do tend to be some code fragments
                                > > on ISE's site,
                                > > but
                                > > > > perhaps it needs some kind soul to build a page
                                > > of examples of
                                > > each
                                > > > > language feature?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > - thomas beale
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                > > to:
                                > > > > ise_users-unsubscribe@y...
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________
                                > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
                                > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                              • Christian Lemer
                                ... Once again, because Eiffel goes a little but further than other OO languages, you should be careful not to write Eiffel a la C++/Java . ... -- Christian
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  "geiroves" <geiroves@...> writes:

                                  > Hello,
                                  >
                                  > You pointed out an important fact: I was talking about examples as
                                  > examples of syntax: Not OO principles! Thanks for clearing this up!

                                  Once again, because Eiffel goes a little but further than other OO
                                  languages, you should be careful not to write Eiffel "a la C++/Java".


                                  >
                                  > Geir Ove
                                  >
                                  > --- In ise_users@y..., Gary Smithrud <kb0wno@y...> wrote:
                                  > > Examples can be bad if they are poorly written and you
                                  > > take them as the way to do things. This is more of an
                                  > > issue with C++ and Java (you have to look no further
                                  > > than the libraries for these two languages to see bad
                                  > > coding examples.) I've seen examples in C++ (many
                                  > > years ago) that were nothing more than C code.
                                  > > Learning OO from these examples would not be a good
                                  > > idea.
                                  > >
                                  > > An issue here is that we are really talking about two
                                  > > different things. You are talking about using
                                  > > examples to learn the syntax and Chris is talking
                                  > > about using them to learn OO. Since you are
                                  > > experienced with OO (except possibily multiple
                                  > > inheritence issues) you would be able to recognize
                                  > > poorly written OO code.
                                  > >
                                  > > I would agree with Ian that there isn't a lot of
                                  > > "in-a-nutshell" type examples, although
                                  > > mirrored-image-ISE does provide many examples with
                                  > > their releases. Although you looked on
                                  > > sourceforge.net, there are some bigger projects that
                                  > > might be fun to play with. EiffelOpenGL
                                  > > (eifogl.sourceforge.net) is cool if you like doing 3D
                                  > > graphics (or learning how to). Check out the CVS
                                  > > version, though. There is also Goanna (web server).
                                  > > You can also check out www.elj.com for links to a
                                  > > bunch of stuff...has to be one of the messier web
                                  > > pages I have ever seen...:-). It isn't updated
                                  > > frequently, though, and I'm not sure if anyone is
                                  > > currently maintaining it.
                                  > >
                                  > > This conversation has been really weird with yahoo.com
                                  > > getting messages in a strange order. I've probably
                                  > > answered stuff that's already been answered...and I
                                  > > didn't even see the original message until just now.
                                  > >
                                  > > Gary.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- geiroves <geiroves@o...> wrote:
                                  > > > Hello,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I agree. And I can't understand that examples are
                                  > > > that bad: People
                                  > > > who don't want to invest time to learn Eiffel will
                                  > > > never learn it
                                  > > > even if you throw the OOSC2 reference to them.
                                  > > > People who do want to
                                  > > > learn Eiffel can get up and running fast with
                                  > > > examples, and then dive
                                  > > > into the reference to get more "meat" on the
                                  > > > bones...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I personally find this a more pleasing (and faster)
                                  > > > way to learn
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Geir Ove
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In ise_users@y..., "Matthew Robinson"
                                  > > > <matthew.robinson@i...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > I agree with Thomas. I have read OOSC2, and it
                                  > > > was a revelation,
                                  > > > but I don't
                                  > > > > want to have to thumb through it whenever I need
                                  > > > to remind myself
                                  > > > how to
                                  > > > > write a bit of Eiffel. I don't use Eiffel as my
                                  > > > main language and
                                  > > > it would
                                  > > > > be very handy to have a ready selection of Eiffel
                                  > > > examples to refer
                                  > > > to when I
                                  > > > > can't remember a particular Eiffel construct.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Matthew Robinson
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > > From: Thomas Beale [SMTP:thomas@d...]
                                  > > > > > Sent: 01 July 2002 08:08
                                  > > > > > To: ise_users@y...
                                  > > > > > Subject: Re: [ise_users] Re: In the Eiffel
                                  > > > Community's interest
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > for what it's worth, I think that experienced OO
                                  > > > people might
                                  > > > reasonably
                                  > > > > > expect to find examples of the particularities
                                  > > > of a new language
                                  > > > they
                                  > > > > > want to learn; they don't really need to
                                  > > > re-learn the theory
                                  > > > > > again...there do tend to be some code fragments
                                  > > > on ISE's site,
                                  > > > but
                                  > > > > > perhaps it needs some kind soul to build a page
                                  > > > of examples of
                                  > > > each
                                  > > > > > language feature?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > - thomas beale
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
                                  > > > to:
                                  > > > > > ise_users-unsubscribe@y...
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > __________________________________________________
                                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                  > > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
                                  > > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > ise_users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  Christian Lemer
                                  Service de Conformation des Macromolecules Biologiques et de Bioinformatique
                                  Universite Libre de Bruxelles Brussels Free University
                                  chris@... +32.2.648.52.00 http://www.ucmb.ulb.ac.be/~chris

                                  The README file said /"\
                                  "Requires Windows 98, XP or better." \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
                                  So... I installed it on GNU/Linux! X AGAINST HTML MAIL
                                  / \
                                • Gary Smithrud
                                  That s certainly a good point. Wow, this conversation is really messed up with the ordering issues. Gary. ... === message truncated ===
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    That's certainly a good point. Wow, this conversation
                                    is really messed up with the ordering issues.

                                    Gary.
                                    --- geiroves <geiroves@...> wrote:
                                    > Hello,
                                    >
                                    > you said:
                                    >
                                    > <<I must say that I'm really surprised by Geir Ove
                                    > statement when he
                                    > is coming from the Smalltalk world. I have not seen
                                    > any "examples"
                                    > floating around...and I could say "how many
                                    > programmers use Smalltalk
                                    > out there...really?" >>
                                    >
                                    > But that was exactly my point!! Learning Smalltalk
                                    > took a h... of a
                                    > lot of time due to lack of examples, and the same
                                    > lack of examples is
                                    > probably not serving the Smalltalk community either!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Geir Ove
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In ise_users@y..., Gary Smithrud <kb0wno@y...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > Just to add a slightly different point of view,
                                    > but
                                    > > I'm more in the middle of the road on "learning
                                    > from
                                    > > examples." Yes, it is very good to read the book,
                                    > > because it really does change the way that you
                                    > think
                                    > > about things. Even I, who had probably had 14
                                    > years
                                    > > of OO development (started with Smalltalk,
                                    > > Object-Lisp, CLOS, Neon (ugh), and C++
                                    > (ugh++)...and
                                    > > also a little Object-C) when I read the book, had
                                    > many
                                    > > concepts clarified by reading it.
                                    > >
                                    > > This does not mean that you can't learn anything
                                    > from
                                    > > examples...you just have to take examples with a
                                    > large
                                    > > grain of salt. Examples are typically written
                                    > quickly
                                    > > to show how to do one particular usage of some
                                    > item
                                    > > (not always) and not the best way to write an
                                    > > application. Furthermore, getting source code
                                    > from
                                    > > the internet (you can get the source for many
                                    > projects
                                    > > out there), you may not get the code from a good
                                    > > Eiffel programmer (I'm not pointing anyone
                                    > out...just
                                    > > that it is a possibility.)
                                    > >
                                    > > As for "how many programmers", there are quite a
                                    > few
                                    > > out there and many more that wish they were. This
                                    > > doesn't mean that they are "free" to provide
                                    > source
                                    > > code of stuff that they are working on. And so
                                    > on.
                                    > > It is true that there is a bunch of crappy Java
                                    > > examples all over the place. Is it good to only
                                    > learn
                                    > > from them either? Not really. I must say that
                                    > I'm
                                    > > really surprised by Geir Ove statement when he is
                                    > > coming from the Smalltalk world. I have not seen
                                    > any
                                    > > "examples" floating around...and I could say "how
                                    > many
                                    > > programmers use Smalltalk out there...really?"
                                    > You
                                    > > can't really tell by "example" code to determine
                                    > how
                                    > > many people are using it, but my guess is that
                                    > there
                                    > > are more Eiffel programmers than Smalltalk.
                                    > >
                                    > > Gary M. Smithrud
                                    > >
                                    > > --- Christian Lemer <chris@u...> wrote:
                                    > > > "geiroves" <geiroves@o...> writes:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Hello,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I have many years of Smalltalk programming
                                    > behind
                                    > > > me (7+). I do not
                                    > > > > want to start a religious discussion on how to
                                    > > > learn, but if the
                                    > > > > Eiffel community want to survive, and
                                    > preferably
                                    > > > grow, I think some
                                    > > > > attitudes may have to change:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Will you kill the Eiffel programmers? ;-)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The community is there... happy to use their
                                    > > > favorite tool.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > If you want to use it, you are welcome... but
                                    > maybe
                                    > > > you should try to
                                    > > > adapt a little also.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Really, the OOSC2 was a real discovery for me. I
                                    > > > really think it's the
                                    > > > book that every OO programmers should have read
                                    > > > before programming
                                    > > > it's first important project.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This was just an advice... if you don't want to
                                    > hear
                                    > > > from it... just
                                    > > > forget it, but I really think you loose
                                    > somethiing.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Just because someone learnt the "hard way",
                                    > does
                                    > > > not mean that
                                    > > > > everyone else has to do the same.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I think it was the "easiest" way... Sorry!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Examples are a good way to get started, I
                                    > > > personally (and many with
                                    > > > > me) find it preferable to study hard cord
                                    > > > referencse at a later
                                    > > > > time.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > OOSC2 is not a reference, it's a book for
                                    > > > teaching... something like a
                                    > > > tutorial... in fact it's full of examples!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > There are plenty of examples... take a look at
                                    > all
                                    > > > the libraries!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_eiffel.html
                                    > > >
                                    > > > (see the "Start here" section).
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > http://smalleiffel.loria.fr/general/resources.html
                                    > > >
                                    > > > If you are looking for a "Hello World"
                                    > example...
                                    > > > these are in the
                                    > > > OOSC2!
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > If there are no examples out there available,
                                    > how
                                    > > > many programmers
                                    > > > > are there, really....
                                    > > >
                                    > > > If you really think the number of programmers is
                                    > > > important, maybe you
                                    > > > should try java... ;-)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Sorry but learning by example is so disastrous
                                    > that
                                    > > > I could not resist
                                    > > > to argue! Maybe I'm a little bit too sarcastic,
                                    > but
                                    > > > I have to program
                                    > > > in Java for the moment and it's so ... humm...
                                    > let's
                                    > > > say
                                    > > > ... uncomfortable...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > If you invest some time learning Eiffel, I think
                                    > > > you'll never regret
                                    > > > it...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Chris.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Geir Ove
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In ise_users@y..., Christian Lemer
                                    > > > <chris@u...> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Did you take a look at THE Eiffel reference:
                                    > I
                                    > > > mean OOSC2?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Eiffel is not a language you should learn by
                                    > > > example. (My point of
                                    > > > > > view is that we should NEVER try to learn by
                                    > > > exampel but that's
                                    > > > > > another subject...).
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    === message truncated ===


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                                  • Gary Smithrud
                                    I found the article interesting, but it doesn t come close to the true cost of using the wrong tools for software development. How many projects have overrun
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 2, 2002
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                                      I found the article interesting, but it doesn't come
                                      close to the true cost of using the wrong tools for
                                      software development. How many projects have overrun
                                      their budgets because of poor/wrong tools? How many
                                      projects have failed because of this same reason. How
                                      many projects that should end have limped along
                                      because it took so long to determine that they weren't
                                      going to work. The list goes on and on. It is sad,
                                      really, when you think about it.

                                      Gary.

                                      --- Ian Joyner <i.joyner@...> wrote:
                                      > Interesting thread on examples. I still marvel at
                                      > the number of facts
                                      > about software that Eiffel's assertion mechanism can
                                      > find out, from
                                      > lurking defects to the nature of the software. I'm
                                      > building most of my
                                      > stuff as one huge example of how to best use these
                                      > facilities. Of course
                                      > we can probably do with some more in-a-nutshell
                                      > examples.
                                      >
                                      > Since most of my work is in interfacing to someone
                                      > else's framework in
                                      > another OO language, I find Eiffel's assertions help
                                      > discover the
                                      > properties of that framework, that are not
                                      > documented (although it has
                                      > to be said the documentation is pretty good and
                                      > thorough). Eiffel adds
                                      > an extra degree of expressing the dependencies
                                      > between different
                                      > parameters.
                                      >
                                      > I actually start by making the preconditions pretty
                                      > tight, letting them
                                      > trigger to find the exceptions, and that way I
                                      > understand the underlying
                                      > framework much better, as well as providing a lot of
                                      > automatic testing.
                                      >
                                      > This of course leads into my headline. Some of you
                                      > may have seen this
                                      > story, linked to by ACM Technews:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=581&ncid=581&e=7&u=/nm/20020628/
                                      > tc_nm/tech_software_dc_1
                                      >
                                      > Interesting reading. Perhaps the conclusion should
                                      > scare people into
                                      > using Eiffel!
                                      >
                                      > Ian
                                      >
                                      >


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