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Are eckists idiots and morons?

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  • harrisonferrel
    In response to a previous post.... Since most of us in this group have been suckered into eckankar in one way or another, I think the use of words like idiot
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 13, 2010
      In response to a previous post.... Since most of us in this group have been suckered into eckankar in one way or another, I think the use of words like idiot and moron is a bit too harsh. I have a brother in the cult but I don't think he's an idiot. I wasn't an idiot. Membership in eckankar is a poor choice based on a lack of proof, information and due diligence, not stupidity. Further, I still contend that eckankar isn't much worse than any other religion, or at least most other religions, because they have at their foundation a demand to accept some illogical and unfounded beliefs on no proof at all. Since most people believe in some sort of religion, I can't buy that most people are idiots and morons. Gullible and illogical? Probably, but not idiots and morons.
    • Gnothe Seauton
      Hello Harrison and All,You re correct that most people who are into New Agereligions like Eckankar aren t idiots and morons. We leftthe religions of our
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 14, 2010
        Hello Harrison and All,
        You're correct that most people who are into New Age
        religions like Eckankar aren't idiots and morons. We left
        the religions of our parents because of the lies and myth.
        It seems that people, in general, want to know more about 
        God and the "purpose" for our existence and what happens 
        when we die. Is death merely the end of life? That doesn't 
        fly does it! Religion does offer people explanations (although 
        distorted) and gives them laws and rules to live by (for 
        control) and a purpose linked to a future promise of heaven 
        (hope) that helps to alleviate our basic fear of death. 
        Plus, it gives us an explanation of why bad things happen 
        to good people (karma/sin).

        I think what first attracted me to Eckankar was that 
        it was a "spiritual path" and not a religion. I wanted to 
        learn more about karma, Soul, Spirit, and to experience
        God-Realization like the mystics. For years, the huge 
        amount of information in the discourses and books was 
        complicated and confusing. I was trying to process and
        understand too much. I couldn't just accept it because
        I've always been a skeptic. Of course, after many years 
        I did begin to "know" more and experience more "spiritual"
        things. This growth in consciousness, however, would 
        have occurred anyway if I had done my own research 
        and exploration minus the dogma. My spiritual growth
        was of my making and not due to Klemp's intervention.   

        It's really a disservice to teach people to worship, pray to, 
        or follow another individual whether they are dead or alive
        and claim to be prophet, pope, master, or whatever. People 
        should focus upon their higher Self if anything. That seems 
        to be the key (secret) that is missing with any religion. If 
        people looked to their own Soul or higher Self we wouldn't 
        need religion. If one believes/knows that they are Soul, 
        and a part of the Divine, they would not need to have a 
        spokes/salesperson for them. We can do all the things 
        they (prophets/saints/masters) claim to do or have done, 
        and more, but we can do it for real. Instead of asking the 
        Mahanta or God for this and that (parking spaces, jobs, etc.) 
        just ask Soul. This has to work better because who else 
        knows us and what we really need and desire other than 
        Soul?

        Prometheus

        harrisonferrel wrote:
        In response to a previous post.... Since most of us in this group have been suckered into eckankar in one way or another, I think the use of words like idiot and moron is a bit too harsh. I have a brother in the cult but I don't think he's an idiot. I wasn't an idiot. Membership in eckankar is a poor choice based on a lack of proof, information and due diligence, not stupidity. Further, I still contend that eckankar isn't much worse than any other religion, or at least most other religions, because they have at their foundation a demand to accept some illogical and unfounded beliefs on no proof at all. Since most people believe in some sort of religion, I can't buy that most people are idiots and morons. Gullible and illogical? Probably, but not idiots and morons.



      • al_radzik
        You re right. It is really none of our business what people believe and attacking them with ad hominems is unfair. I ve been guilty of that myself and it is
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 15, 2010
          You're right. It is really none of our business what people believe and attacking them with ad hominems is unfair. I've been guilty of that myself and it is difficult to shoot the message and leave the messenger alone.



          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > In response to a previous post.... Since most of us in this group have been suckered into eckankar in one way or another, I think the use of words like idiot and moron is a bit too harsh. I have a brother in the cult but I don't think he's an idiot. I wasn't an idiot. Membership in eckankar is a poor choice based on a lack of proof, information and due diligence, not stupidity. Further, I still contend that eckankar isn't much worse than any other religion, or at least most other religions, because they have at their foundation a demand to accept some illogical and unfounded beliefs on no proof at all. Since most people believe in some sort of religion, I can't buy that most people are idiots and morons. Gullible and illogical? Probably, but not idiots and morons.
          >
        • harrisonferrel
          I agree with most of what you said. I would, however, like to take the word myth out of the equation. A myth is a metaphor, but you d have to study Joseph
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 15, 2010
            I agree with most of what you said. I would, however, like to take the word "myth" out of the equation. A myth is a metaphor, but you'd have to study Joseph Campbell to get the details. The word is way too often used interchangeably with the word "lie" or to talk about something that is misleading or untrue in some aspect. Myths are connected to humanness, while religions are at best myths that have been bastardized.

            I like your idea of counting on yourself instead of playing the mahanta game.

            We simply have to recognize that eckankar is a cult. There is no other way around this. And religions are cults that have stood the test of time and have been concretized. But they are no better.



            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Harrison and All,You're correct that most people who are into New Agereligions like Eckankar aren't idiots and morons. We leftthe religions of our parents because of the lies and myth.It seems that people, in general, want to know more about God and the "purpose" for our existence and what happens when we die. Is death merely the end of life? That doesn't fly does it! Religion does offer people explanations (although distorted) and gives them laws and rules to live by (for control) and a purpose linked to a future promise of heaven (hope) that helps to alleviate our basic fear of death. Plus, it gives us an explanation of why bad things happen to good people (karma/sin).
            > I think what first attracted me to Eckankar was that it was a "spiritual path" and not a religion. I wanted to learn more about karma, Soul, Spirit, and to experienceGod-Realization like the mystics. For years, the huge amount of information in the discourses and books was complicated and confusing. I was trying to process andunderstand too much. I couldn't just accept it becauseI've always been a skeptic. Of course, after many years I did begin to "know" more and experience more "spiritual"things. This growth in consciousness, however, would have occurred anyway if I had done my own research and exploration minus the dogma. My spiritual growthwas of my making and not due to Klemp's intervention.   
            > It's really a disservice to teach people to worship, pray to, or follow another individual whether they are dead or aliveand claim to be prophet, pope, master, or whatever. People should focus upon their higher Self if anything. That seems to be the key (secret) that is missing with any religion. If people looked to their own Soul or higher Self we wouldn't need religion. If one believes/knows that they are Soul, and a part of the Divine, they would not need to have a spokes/salesperson for them. We can do all the things they (prophets/saints/masters) claim to do or have done, and more, but we can do it for real. Instead of asking the Mahanta or God for this and that (parking spaces, jobs, etc.) just ask Soul. This has to work better because who else knows us and what we really need and desire other than Soul?
            > Prometheus
            > harrisonferrel wrote:
            > In response to a previous post.... Since most of us in this group have been suckered into eckankar in one way or another, I think the use of words like idiot and moron is a bit too harsh. I have a brother in the cult but I don't think he's an idiot. I wasn't an idiot. Membership in eckankar is a poor choice based on a lack of proof, information and due diligence, not stupidity. Further, I still contend that eckankar isn't much worse than any other religion, or at least most other religions, because they have at their foundation a demand to accept some illogical and unfounded beliefs on no proof at all. Since most people believe in some sort of religion, I can't buy that most people are idiots and morons. Gullible and illogical? Probably, but not idiots and morons.
            >
          • harrisonferrel
            I have also been guilty of thinking poorly of eckists in terms of their intelligence. But this is wrong. Intelligent people are right wing Christian bigots,
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 15, 2010
              I have also been guilty of thinking poorly of eckists in terms of their intelligence. But this is wrong. Intelligent people are right wing Christian bigots, television personalities and even psychopaths. Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with consciousness, experience, recognition or perception. Most ironically, eckists are asleep. They are not conscious of the lies and deception of their cult. Ironic because this is what they pretend to be all about — aware of everything.



              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > You're right. It is really none of our business what people believe and attacking them with ad hominems is unfair. I've been guilty of that myself and it is difficult to shoot the message and leave the messenger alone.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
              > >
              > > In response to a previous post.... Since most of us in this group have been suckered into eckankar in one way or another, I think the use of words like idiot and moron is a bit too harsh. I have a brother in the cult but I don't think he's an idiot. I wasn't an idiot. Membership in eckankar is a poor choice based on a lack of proof, information and due diligence, not stupidity. Further, I still contend that eckankar isn't much worse than any other religion, or at least most other religions, because they have at their foundation a demand to accept some illogical and unfounded beliefs on no proof at all. Since most people believe in some sort of religion, I can't buy that most people are idiots and morons. Gullible and illogical? Probably, but not idiots and morons.
              > >
              >
            • avonblue1212
              I totally agree with you. Here s a post from ESA I made that relates to the deception you speak about... It seems the longer I m away from eckankar the more
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 19, 2010
                I totally agree with you. Here's a post from ESA I made that relates to the deception you speak about...

                It seems the longer I'm away from eckankar the more clear the deception becomes.
                While most eckists would strongly disagree with me, I feel the guise of the
                ego-less path and service to others is a bit of a crock. I wondered what others
                thought about this.

                For instance, initiations were not talked about in detail by eckists (it's an
                eck sin) but their presence was always just below the surface. Not true of all
                but generally the higher the initiation the more self-righteous the individual
                seemed to become. I'd use the word smug - nothing overt, just a subtle "I'm
                better than you" attitude. This was exacerbated in discussion and satsang when
                listening to someone talking about their latest "experience" and how directly or
                indirectly they we're saying how they understood life but the other was simply
                bumbling through life unaware. Not to say this was a conscious belligerent attitude
                but more of a subliminal air - very soft undertones.

                "Experiences" especially related to seminar talks are interesting as well.
                First, eck has developed an elitist list of Super Eckists - invited to speak or
                perform time after time. This is true on the national as well as regional
                level. It's a personality thing - eckists "worshipping" these people and trying
                to be seen in their company as well as trying to emulate them. On all levels
                there is an underlying attempt to compare and out do another's experience.
                Exaggeration (I'll be kind) in storytelling is rampant.

                When the "entertainer" Darwin was the LEM, he subtly promoted music as the way
                to God. This became huge on the regional level - a literal eckky talent show of
                mediocre musicians - all trying to prove their god worthiness. Then HK the
                editor brought writing to the forefront - same thing - let's emulate writer's.
                Most of these "creative artists" could never make it in the real world - they
                live by the adoration of their small circle of admirers. And talk about egos!

                I always felt an underlying competition in eckankar on so many levels. Freeing
                myself from this dysfunctional group was the most rewarding "experience" I've
                had to date!





                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have also been guilty of thinking poorly of eckists in terms of their intelligence. But this is wrong. Intelligent people are right wing Christian bigots, television personalities and even psychopaths. Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with consciousness, experience, recognition or perception. Most ironically, eckists are asleep. They are not conscious of the lies and deception of their cult. Ironic because this is what they pretend to be all about — aware of everything.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@> wrote:
                > >
                > > You're right. It is really none of our business what people believe and attacking them with ad hominems is unfair. I've been guilty of that myself and it is difficult to shoot the message and leave the messenger alone.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > In response to a previous post.... Since most of us in this group have been suckered into eckankar in one way or another, I think the use of words like idiot and moron is a bit too harsh. I have a brother in the cult but I don't think he's an idiot. I wasn't an idiot. Membership in eckankar is a poor choice based on a lack of proof, information and due diligence, not stupidity. Further, I still contend that eckankar isn't much worse than any other religion, or at least most other religions, because they have at their foundation a demand to accept some illogical and unfounded beliefs on no proof at all. Since most people believe in some sort of religion, I can't buy that most people are idiots and morons. Gullible and illogical? Probably, but not idiots and morons.
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Yoga Nitwit
                I think there s no question that many Eckists are quite intelligent. The thing is, they all have that Eckist mystical imperative, that belief system that
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 19, 2010
                  I think there's no question that many Eckists are quite intelligent. The thing is, they all have that Eckist "mystical imperative," that belief system that life has a mystical basis and therefore, Eckankar is Truth. So what you have is the same thing going on with very intelligent but extreme Catholics, or Muslims, or Jews whose belief system holds sway over against what the rest of the world thinks is rational.

                  While we were in Eckankar, did any of us think we were being irrational? Did we think we were deluded cult members? No, we thought we were actually sharper than the mass of humanity. Actually that's not quite right: we felt we'd been gifted with a special discernment and attraction to Eckankar as a result of Sugmad's grace and our own good karma. And yes, we did feel we were superior to the rest of the world, mired in their false religions and cloaked from the obvious truth of the teachings of Eck. Too bad for them, we smiled, but such is the Way of the Eck.

                  I agree that it all really was an ego trip, but we just couldn't see it as that. I also agree with those who say that the Eckankar experience was in the last analysis quite narcissistic and empty. I've often wondered why this is so, as I'm familiar with other religions similar to Eckankar, like sant mat, and while these religions have their own problems the narcissistic vibe isn't there.

                  Does anyone know where exactly in the Eck teachings the selfishness springs from? It's not just confined to a few Eckists, but selfishness really is the dominant trait of the Eck culture -- the smug spiritual attitude of Personal Knowingness that must not be contradicted, the sacredness of Eckist's (and only the Eckist's) Psychic Space and the righteousness of its defense, the concept that the Individual Soul (the Self) is precious above all else. The acutely selfish meme must spring from somewhere in Twitchell's writings, but exactly where I'm not sure. Perhaps it's everywhere in his writings as it surely was in his personality, and virus-like has wormed it way from him to thousands of his followers.





                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "avonblue1212" <gowiththeflow1212@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I totally agree with you. Here's a post from ESA I made that relates to the deception you speak about...
                  >
                  > It seems the longer I'm away from eckankar the more clear the deception becomes.
                  > While most eckists would strongly disagree with me, I feel the guise of the
                  > ego-less path and service to others is a bit of a crock. I wondered what others
                  > thought about this.
                  >
                  > For instance, initiations were not talked about in detail by eckists (it's an
                  > eck sin) but their presence was always just below the surface. Not true of all
                  > but generally the higher the initiation the more self-righteous the individual
                  > seemed to become. I'd use the word smug - nothing overt, just a subtle "I'm
                  > better than you" attitude. This was exacerbated in discussion and satsang when
                  > listening to someone talking about their latest "experience" and how directly or
                  > indirectly they we're saying how they understood life but the other was simply
                  > bumbling through life unaware. Not to say this was a conscious belligerent attitude
                  > but more of a subliminal air - very soft undertones.
                  >
                  > "Experiences" especially related to seminar talks are interesting as well.
                  > First, eck has developed an elitist list of Super Eckists - invited to speak or
                  > perform time after time. This is true on the national as well as regional
                  > level. It's a personality thing - eckists "worshipping" these people and trying
                  > to be seen in their company as well as trying to emulate them. On all levels
                  > there is an underlying attempt to compare and out do another's experience.
                  > Exaggeration (I'll be kind) in storytelling is rampant.
                  >
                  > When the "entertainer" Darwin was the LEM, he subtly promoted music as the way
                  > to God. This became huge on the regional level - a literal eckky talent show of
                  > mediocre musicians - all trying to prove their god worthiness. Then HK the
                  > editor brought writing to the forefront - same thing - let's emulate writer's.
                  > Most of these "creative artists" could never make it in the real world - they
                  > live by the adoration of their small circle of admirers. And talk about egos!
                  >
                  > I always felt an underlying competition in eckankar on so many levels. Freeing
                  > myself from this dysfunctional group was the most rewarding "experience" I've
                  > had to date!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I have also been guilty of thinking poorly of eckists in terms of their intelligence. But this is wrong. Intelligent people are right wing Christian bigots, television personalities and even psychopaths. Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with consciousness, experience, recognition or perception. Most ironically, eckists are asleep. They are not conscious of the lies and deception of their cult. Ironic because this is what they pretend to be all about — aware of everything.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > You're right. It is really none of our business what people believe and attacking them with ad hominems is unfair. I've been guilty of that myself and it is difficult to shoot the message and leave the messenger alone.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In response to a previous post.... Since most of us in this group have been suckered into eckankar in one way or another, I think the use of words like idiot and moron is a bit too harsh. I have a brother in the cult but I don't think he's an idiot. I wasn't an idiot. Membership in eckankar is a poor choice based on a lack of proof, information and due diligence, not stupidity. Further, I still contend that eckankar isn't much worse than any other religion, or at least most other religions, because they have at their foundation a demand to accept some illogical and unfounded beliefs on no proof at all. Since most people believe in some sort of religion, I can't buy that most people are idiots and morons. Gullible and illogical? Probably, but not idiots and morons.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
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