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Re: A little rant

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, Interesting perspectives! Other than Twitch and Gail s role in this deception (Eckankar) we also have Darwin and Klemp s version/ deception.
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 21, 2010
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      Hello All,
      Interesting perspectives! Other than Twitch
      and Gail's role in this deception (Eckankar)
      we also have Darwin and Klemp's version/
      deception. IMO-Klemp, by far, is the worst
      of the three.

      BTW- In regards to that PT quote, I too
      recognize some of that from other sources
      and it sounds like something I or any of
      us former Eckists would say. Paul probably
      paraphrased it as he did with most of what
      he wrote. Thus, he "tweaked" it in order for
      his revised Eastern "spiritual message" to
      fit-in with Western society and our expectations.
      Also, two key elements that Twit eliminated
      (revised) were the Sant Mat requirements
      of chastity and vegetarianism.

      Klemp has taken Paul's revised Eastern
      approach and revised it even further to
      fit-in with his Christian views/training.
      Therefore, Eckankar has become a watered
      down blend of the Eckankar that attracted
      these long-time Eckists in the first place!

      Klemp, also, took a similar approach to
      what David mentioned by keeping Eckists
      distracted and preoccupied with busy work
      and focused upon their own shortcomings
      versus that of their leader. Guilt and blame
      always falls upon the shoulders of chelas
      and H.I.s. Plus, none of the LEMs ever felt
      the need to divulge Eckankar's financial
      records to the membership. This was one
      reason Klemp moved Eckankar out of Calif.
      due to the new open disclosure laws for
      non-profits.

      Is Eckankar more or as sinister than/as
      other religions? No, however, it has the
      potential to be as sinister. The secrecy
      (of doing business) and the intimidation
      practices (involving initiations) along with
      the unquestionable and unchallenged
      power that Klemp welds makes Eckankar
      a potentially sinister religion. Klemp has
      stated that he's "not perfect" but his
      opinions and rules cannot be questioned...
      like the Pope, except, HK was "elected"
      by a "Black Magician." Klemp's a dictator
      that has the potential to go off the deep
      end and take others with him.

      However, IMO, there is one litmus test
      that all religions must pass in order to
      determine their danger to society.

      How do they treat women?

      That's the key. Because if they treat
      their own (mothers, sisters, wives, etc.)
      with cruelty then they are extremely
      dangerous and not really "spiritual"
      at all!

      Eckankar is typical in that women
      cannot ever occupy the top position,
      although, all Souls are supposedly
      equal to all other Souls. It's a contradiction
      that is explained away due to the
      differences between the "outer" coarse
      lower plane vibrations and that of
      the "inner" plane bodies and realities.
      Except, Soul is still Soul on the physical
      as it is on the higher planes and I
      don't believe that physical world
      physics/science would uphold PT's
      (Eckankar's) convoluted positive/
      negative atom myth in regard to
      men versus women.

      Taking this Soul=Soul thing further
      one has to wonder why Eckists have
      placed Klemp upon a pedestal above
      themselves when they are supposedly
      equals. It's probably because equality
      is never really promoted in Eckankar.
      The initiations prevent any possibility
      of this ever happening.

      Anyway, it just tickles me as being
      really funny that I too fell for the
      "positive versus negative atom"
      reason as to why women can't be
      the Top God/Dog of the outer
      Eckankar hierarchy. How naive and
      trusting I was! And, long-time H.I.s
      (RESAs too) still believe/accept this
      crap! LOL!

      Really! Eckists think that they are on
      the most advanced/direct spiritual
      path to God and that they are advanced
      Souls with a very "high" consciousness
      led by the most advanced (14th Plane)
      God-man anywhere... the LEM/Mahanta...
      Harold Klemp. Yet, Eckists are willing
      to accept this ridiculous ekplanation!
      But what else is false? This is why they
      are afraid of opening a Pandora's box
      and why they accept anything Klump
      tells them. They don't want to know
      the truth because that would mean
      their whole imaginary world they have
      built upon would collapse. Then what?

      Klemp has encouraged Eckists to take
      the same "leap-of-faith" that Christian
      based religious followers have taken.
      Eckists have put their blinders on so
      that they don't have to see the truth!
      Seeing the truth would lead them to
      freedom from religion and they aren't
      ready for that. Thus, they are trapped
      and, yet, this too is their "test."

      Anyway, other than that Eckankar does
      treat women as equals to men. However,
      it makes me wonder...

      If Klemp concocted a special "Cool Aid"
      death mix of some sort... (in order to be
      transported immediately to Agam Lok, etc.)
      how many loyal EK followers would drink it?

      Prometheus


      David wrote:
      Hi Tyger,

      Yes, being made to feel deficient or lacking in some way is probably the basis of all religious and cultic conversion and manipulation. I was involved with a certain yoga cult in Romania after I drifted out of Eckankar, in which I saw that the rank and file members were held in check and kept preoccupied with working on their own supposed shortcomings, which were pointed out to them by the guru and the leaders, as a kind of smokescreen to keep the followers from looking too deeply into the leaders' shenanigans behind the scenes.

      Nevertheless, in many ways, the whole Eck manipulation by making someone feel deficient or lacking is nowhere near as bad as the huge burden of guilt and sinfulness that is put upon members of a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian sect. One of Paul Twitchell's written sayings that I liked the most, and identified with most strongly, is this:

      "Man is a god clothed in rags, a master of the universe going about begging for a crust of bread. He could be free. He has only to step out of his own self made prison, because no one holds him there but himself."

      In fact, it sounds so good that Paul Twitchell probably had to have lifted it or plagiarized it from somewhere - does anybody know where?

      And here is a deeper existential question for you all: Which is better, and which is worse: a religious teaching that makes you feel deficient in relation to a hyperinflated superglorious pie in the sky ideal, or a religous teaching that makes you feel deficient by telling you that you are a sinful wretch to begin with, and the scum of the earth? To me, the fundamentalist and puritanical Christian way of doing the latter is far more injurious and destructive. Nevertheless, you might argue that the former, being a subtler and seemingly more benign form of teaching, is more insidious and misleading...

      David

      tygerpurr wrote:

      Yes that's exactly how it is, you are somehow always deficient in someway and the attempt to convert you can be subtle to very overbearing. I remember one man using a technique he had obviously been taught in which he was attempting to convince me of some "void" I must be experiencing and so must accept Jesus in some form of totality. For many this works because in fact, no matter what your religious beliefs, the human condition always involves never measuring up to some ultimate Ideal or perfection. We are beings in process, and we will all at some time die and in that process will experience loss. That someone can convince you that there is an actual eternal Happiness or even never ending euphoria is absurd and may even be a leading you down the road to a very unhappy life and self-hate.

      eckankar is just the creation of a false self, divorced from living as good a life as you can. Compassion to me is key. We must not give into the temptation of delusional Grandiosity that will then lead to a crashing down into the depths of despair. Belief in these Initiations is the height of egoism, as well as the conviction that some man or person in a photo is your personal eck God. (gagging):<

      From what I understand about Tao and other similar world views is that a balance is the key, and to borrow in an eclectic fashion, compassion begins with yourself. Depending on your childhood and cultural formation and conditioning, this may be easy or more difficult to become self-actualized in this way. Often finding nice, caring friends or a Therapist is a good way to go.

      I also find it interesting that children are usually the ones to have the happiest moments of laughter and glee, especially if they come from homes in which they are respected, nurtured and not neglected or abused. Hillary had it right in her book It Takes a Village. Just think how different Society would be if the center of concern was on Children. It's not Rocket Science.

      In My Opinion IMO

      Question Authority

      Tygerpurr ; )

      "tomleafeater" wrote:
      >
      This has all been said before in far more eloquent ways, but I guess I'll repeat it once again:
      >
      Notice how many spiritual teachings assert that they are the best, highest, most direct, most advanced, fastest? In so many instances of contact I've had with followers of religion, it usually boils down to them "teaching" me something they presume to know that I lack, before they even know anything about me, thus asserting superiority to me in some way, and essentially offering me a way to enjoy the superiority that they enjoy, by following their path.
      >
      But isn't that the antithesis to spirituality? Isn't love, cooperation, working together, helping each other, all in humility, what really matters most of all, and isn't it true that spiritual elitism is what so often gets in the way of that?
      >
      And when a religious person tries to convert another person to their teaching of "love," aren't they presuming they have more love than the person they're trying to convert? Aren't they trying to thrust a master/follower template on the prospective member? And isn't that a poor way to begin a relationship with another person? To expect submission rather than equality?
      >
      On a.r.e., most debates come down to people telling me I left eckankar because I failed to understand the "inner teachings", and yet they are the ones falling prey to the delusions of superiority offered by Eckankar, which is a factor shared by so many religions.
      >
      And that somehow makes them higher?
      >
      Leaf
    • David Osborn
      Dear Promo,      Thanks for the megarant!                            David ... From: prometheus_973
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 21, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Promo,
             Thanks for the megarant!
                                   David

        --- On Thu, 10/21/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: A little rant
        To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 10:52 AM

        Hello All,
        Interesting perspectives! Other than Twitch
        and Gail's role in this deception (Eckankar)
        we also have Darwin and Klemp's version/
        deception. IMO-Klemp, by far, is the worst
        of the three.

        BTW- In regards to that PT quote, I too
        recognize some of that from other sources
        and it sounds like something I or any of
        us former Eckists would say. Paul probably
        paraphrased it as he did with most of what
        he wrote. Thus, he "tweaked" it in order for
        his revised Eastern "spiritual message" to
        fit-in with Western society and our expectations.
        Also, two key elements that Twit eliminated
        (revised) were the Sant Mat requirements
        of chastity and vegetarianism. 

        Klemp has taken Paul's revised Eastern
        approach and revised it even further to
        fit-in with his Christian views/training.
        Therefore, Eckankar has become a watered
        down blend of the Eckankar that attracted
        these long-time Eckists in the first place!

        Klemp, also, took a similar approach to
        what David mentioned by keeping Eckists
        distracted and preoccupied with busy work
        and focused upon their own shortcomings
        versus that of their leader. Guilt and blame
        always falls upon the shoulders of chelas
        and H.I.s. Plus, none of the LEMs ever felt
        the need to divulge Eckankar's financial
        records to the membership. This was one
        reason Klemp moved Eckankar out of Calif.
        due to the new open disclosure laws for
        non-profits.

        Is Eckankar more or as sinister than/as
        other religions? No, however, it has the
        potential to be as sinister. The secrecy
        (of doing business) and the intimidation
        practices (involving initiations) along with
        the unquestionable and unchallenged
        power that Klemp welds makes Eckankar
        a potentially sinister religion. Klemp has
        stated that he's "not perfect" but his
        opinions and rules cannot be questioned...
        like the Pope, except, HK was "elected"
        by a "Black Magician." Klemp's a dictator
        that has the potential to go off the deep
        end and take others with him.

        However, IMO, there is one litmus test
        that all religions must pass in order to
        determine their danger to society.

        How do they treat women?

        That's the key. Because if they treat
        their own (mothers, sisters, wives, etc.)
        with cruelty then they are extremely
        dangerous and not really "spiritual"
        at all!

        Eckankar is typical in that women
        cannot ever occupy the top position,
        although, all Souls are supposedly
        equal to all other Souls. It's a contradiction
        that is explained away due to the
        differences between the "outer" coarse
        lower plane vibrations and that of
        the "inner" plane bodies and realities.
        Except, Soul is still Soul on the physical
        as it is on the higher planes and I
        don't believe that physical world
        physics/science would uphold PT's
        (Eckankar's) convoluted positive/
        negative atom myth in regard to
        men versus women.

        Taking this Soul=Soul thing further
        one has to wonder why Eckists have
        placed Klemp upon a pedestal above
        themselves when they are supposedly
        equals. It's probably because equality
        is never really promoted in Eckankar.
        The initiations prevent any possibility
        of this ever happening.

        Anyway, it just tickles me as being
        really funny that I too fell for the
        "positive versus negative atom"
        reason as to why women can't be
        the Top God/Dog of the outer
        Eckankar hierarchy. How naive and
        trusting I was! And, long-time H.I.s
        (RESAs too) still believe/accept this
        crap! LOL!

        Really! Eckists think that they are on
        the most advanced/direct spiritual
        path to God and that they are advanced
        Souls with a very "high" consciousness
        led by the most advanced (14th Plane)
        God-man anywhere... the LEM/Mahanta...
        Harold Klemp. Yet, Eckists are willing
        to accept this ridiculous ekplanation!
        But what else is false? This is why they
        are afraid of opening a Pandora's box
        and why they accept anything Klump
        tells them. They don't want to know
        the truth because that would mean
        their whole imaginary world they have
        built upon would collapse. Then what?

        Klemp has encouraged Eckists to take
        the same "leap-of-faith" that Christian
        based religious followers have taken.
        Eckists have put their blinders on so
        that they don't have to see the truth!
        Seeing the truth would lead them to
        freedom from religion and they aren't
        ready for that. Thus, they are trapped
        and, yet, this too is their "test."

        Anyway, other than that Eckankar does
        treat women as equals to men. However,
        it makes me wonder...

        If Klemp concocted a special "Cool Aid"
        death mix of some sort... (in order to be
        transported immediately to Agam Lok, etc.)
        how many loyal EK followers would drink it?

        Prometheus


        David wrote:
        Hi Tyger,

        Yes, being made to feel deficient or lacking in some way is probably the basis of all religious and cultic conversion and manipulation.  I was involved with a certain yoga cult in Romania after I drifted out of Eckankar, in which I saw that the rank and file members were held in check and kept preoccupied with working on their own supposed shortcomings, which were pointed out to them by the guru and the leaders, as a kind of smokescreen to keep the followers from looking too deeply into the leaders' shenanigans behind the scenes. 

        Nevertheless, in many ways, the whole Eck manipulation by making someone feel deficient or lacking is nowhere near as bad as the huge burden of guilt and sinfulness that is put upon members of a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian sect.  One of Paul Twitchell's written sayings that I liked the most, and identified with most strongly, is this:

        "Man is a god clothed in rags, a master of the universe going about begging for a crust of bread.  He could be free.  He has only to step out of his own self made prison, because no one holds him there but himself."

        In fact, it sounds so good that Paul Twitchell probably had to have lifted it or plagiarized it from somewhere - does anybody know where?
                                                                       
        And here is a deeper existential question for you all:  Which is better, and which is worse: a religious teaching that makes you feel deficient in relation to a hyperinflated superglorious pie in the sky ideal, or a religous teaching that makes you feel deficient by telling you that you are a sinful wretch to begin with, and the scum of the earth?  To me, the fundamentalist and puritanical Christian way of doing the latter is far more injurious and destructive.  Nevertheless, you might argue that the former, being a subtler and seemingly more benign form of teaching, is more insidious and misleading...

                                                                David

        tygerpurr wrote:

        Yes that's exactly how it is, you are somehow always deficient in someway and the attempt to convert you can be subtle to very overbearing. I remember one man using a technique he had obviously been taught in which he was attempting to convince me of some "void" I must be experiencing and so must accept Jesus in some form of totality. For many this works because in fact, no matter what your religious beliefs, the human condition always involves never measuring up to some ultimate Ideal or perfection. We are beings in process, and we will all at some time die and in that process will experience loss. That someone can convince you that there is an actual eternal Happiness or even never ending euphoria is absurd and may even be a leading you down the road to a very unhappy life and self-hate.

        eckankar is just the creation of a false self, divorced from living as good a life as you can. Compassion to me is key. We must not give into the temptation of delusional Grandiosity that will then lead to a crashing down into the depths of despair. Belief in these Initiations is the height of egoism, as well as the conviction that some man or person in a photo is your personal eck God. (gagging):<

        From what I understand about Tao and other similar world views is that a balance is the key, and to borrow in an eclectic fashion, compassion begins with yourself. Depending on your childhood and cultural formation and conditioning, this may be easy or more difficult to become self-actualized in this way. Often finding nice, caring friends or a Therapist is a good way to go.

        I also find it interesting that children are usually the ones to have the happiest moments of laughter and glee, especially if they come from homes in which they are respected, nurtured and not neglected or abused. Hillary had it right in her book It Takes a Village. Just think how different Society would be if the center of concern was on Children. It's not Rocket Science.

        In My Opinion IMO

        Question Authority

        Tygerpurr ; )

        "tomleafeater" wrote:
        >
        This has all been said before in far more eloquent ways, but I guess I'll repeat it once again:
        >
        Notice how many spiritual teachings assert that they are the best, highest, most direct, most advanced, fastest? In so many instances of contact I've had with followers of religion, it usually boils down to them "teaching" me something they presume to know that I lack, before they even know anything about me, thus asserting superiority to me in some way, and essentially offering me a way to enjoy the superiority that they enjoy, by following their path.
        >
        But isn't that the antithesis to spirituality? Isn't love, cooperation, working together, helping each other, all in humility, what really matters most of all, and isn't it true that spiritual elitism is what so often gets in the way of that?
        >
        And when a religious person tries to convert another person to their teaching of "love," aren't they presuming they have more love than the person they're trying to convert? Aren't they trying to thrust a master/follower template on the prospective member? And isn't that a poor way to begin a relationship with another person? To expect submission rather than equality?
        >
        On a.r.e., most debates come down to people telling me I left eckankar because I failed to understand the "inner teachings", and yet they are the ones falling prey to the delusions of superiority offered by Eckankar, which is a factor shared by so many religions.
        >
        And that somehow makes them higher?
        >
        Leaf



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