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A little rant

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  • tomleafeater
    This has all been said before in far more eloquent ways, but I guess I ll repeat it once again: Notice how many spiritual teachings assert that they are the
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 16, 2010
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      This has all been said before in far more eloquent ways, but I guess I'll repeat it once again:

      Notice how many spiritual teachings assert that they are the best, highest, most direct, most advanced, fastest? In so many instances of contact I've had with followers of religion, it usually boils down to them "teaching" me something they presume to know that I lack, before they even know anything about me, thus asserting superiority to me in some way, and essentially offering me a way to enjoy the superiority that they enjoy, by following their path.

      But isn't that the antithesis to spirituality? Isn't love, cooperation, working together, helping each other, all in humility, what really matters most of all, and isn't it true that spiritual elitism is what so often gets in the way of that?

      And when a religious person tries to convert another person to their teaching of "love," aren't they presuming they have more love than the person they're trying to convert? Aren't they trying to thrust a master/follower template on the prospective member? And isn't that a poor way to begin a relationship with another person? To expect submission rather than equality?

      On a.r.e., most debates come down to people telling me I left eckankar™ because I failed to understand the "inner teachings™", and yet they are the ones falling prey to the delusions of superiority offered by Eckankar™, which is a factor shared by so many religions.

      And that somehow makes them higher?

      Leaf
    • tygerpurr
      Yes that s exactly how it is, you are somehow always deficient in someway and the attempt to convert you can be subtle to very overbearing. I remember one man
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 21, 2010
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        Yes that's exactly how it is, you are somehow always deficient in someway and the attempt to convert you can be subtle to very overbearing. I remember one man using a technique he had obviously been taught in which he was attempting to convince me of some "void" I must be experiencing and so must accept Jesus in some form of totality. For many this works because in fact, no matter what your religious beliefs, the human condition always involves never measuring up to some ultimate Ideal or perfection. We are beings in process, and we will all at some time die and in that process will experience loss. That someone can convince you that there is an actual eternal Happiness or even never ending euphoria is absurd and may even be a leading you down the road to a very unhappy life and self-hate.

        eckankar is just the creation of a false self, divorced from living as good a life as you can. Compassion to me is key. We must not give into the temptation of delusional Grandiosity that will then lead to a crashing down into the depths of despair. Belief in these Initiations is the height of egoism, as well as the conviction that some man or person in a photo is your personal eck God. (gagging):<

        From what I understand about Tao and other similar world views is that a balance is the key, and to borrow in an eclectic fashion, compassion begins with yourself. Depending on your childhood and cultural formation and conditioning, this may be easy or more difficult to become self-actualized in this way. Often finding nice, caring friends or a Therapist is a good way to go.

        I also find it interesting that children are usually the ones to have the happiest moments of laughter and glee, especially if they come from homes in which they are respected, nurtured and not neglected or abused. Hillary had it right in her book It Takes a Village. Just think how different Society would be if the center of concern was on Children. It's not Rocket Science.

        In My Opinion IMO

        Question Authority

        Tygerpurr ; )

        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
        >
        > This has all been said before in far more eloquent ways, but I guess I'll repeat it once again:
        >
        > Notice how many spiritual teachings assert that they are the best, highest, most direct, most advanced, fastest? In so many instances of contact I've had with followers of religion, it usually boils down to them "teaching" me something they presume to know that I lack, before they even know anything about me, thus asserting superiority to me in some way, and essentially offering me a way to enjoy the superiority that they enjoy, by following their path.
        >
        > But isn't that the antithesis to spirituality? Isn't love, cooperation, working together, helping each other, all in humility, what really matters most of all, and isn't it true that spiritual elitism is what so often gets in the way of that?
        >
        > And when a religious person tries to convert another person to their teaching of "love," aren't they presuming they have more love than the person they're trying to convert? Aren't they trying to thrust a master/follower template on the prospective member? And isn't that a poor way to begin a relationship with another person? To expect submission rather than equality?
        >
        > On a.r.e., most debates come down to people telling me I left eckankar™ because I failed to understand the "inner teachings™", and yet they are the ones falling prey to the delusions of superiority offered by Eckankar™, which is a factor shared by so many religions.
        >
        > And that somehow makes them higher?
        >
        > Leaf
        >
      • David Osborn
        Hi Tyger,      Yes, being made to feel deficient or lacking in some way is probably the basis of all religious and cultic conversion and manipulation.  I
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 21, 2010
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          Hi Tyger,
               Yes, being made to feel deficient or lacking in some way is probably the basis of all religious and cultic conversion and manipulation.  I was involved with a certain yoga cult in Romania after I drifted out of Eckankar, in which I saw that the rank and file members were held in check and kept preoccupied with working on their own supposed shortcomings, which were pointed out to them by the guru and the leaders, as a kind of smokescreen to keep the followers from looking too deeply into the leaders' shenanigans behind the scenes. 
               Nevertheless, in many ways, the whole Eck manipulation by making someone feel deficient or lacking is nowhere near as bad as the huge burden of guilt and sinfulness that is put upon members of a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian sect.  One of Paul Twitchell's written sayings that I liked the most, and identified with most strongly, is this:

          "Man is a god clothed in rags, a master of the universe going about begging for a crust of bread.  He could be free.  He has only to step out of his own self made prison, because no one holds him there but himself."

          In fact, it sounds so good that Paul Twitchell probably had to have lifted it or plagiarized it from somewhere - does anybody know where?
                                                                         
          And here is a deeper existential question for you all:  Which is better, and which is worse: a religious teaching that makes you feel deficient in relation to a hyperinflated superglorious pie in the sky ideal, or a religous teaching that makes you feel deficient by telling you that you are a sinful wretch to begin with, and the scum of the earth?  To me, the fundamentalist and puritanical Christian way of doing the latter is far more injurious and destructive.  Nevertheless, you might argue that the former, being a subtler and seemingly more benign form of teaching, is more insidious and misleading...

                                                                  David

          --- On Thu, 10/21/10, tygerpurr <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          From: tygerpurr <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: A little rant
          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 12:29 AM

          Yes that's exactly how it is, you are somehow always deficient in someway and the attempt to convert you can be subtle to very overbearing. I remember one man using a technique he had obviously been taught in which he was attempting to convince me of some "void" I must be experiencing and so must accept Jesus in some form of totality. For many this works because in fact, no matter what your religious beliefs, the human condition always involves never measuring up to some ultimate Ideal or perfection. We are beings in process, and we will all at some time die and in that process will experience loss. That someone can convince you that there is an actual eternal Happiness or even never ending euphoria is absurd and may even be a leading you down the road to a very unhappy life and self-hate.

          eckankar is just the creation of a false self, divorced from living as good a life as you can. Compassion to me is key. We must not give into the temptation of delusional Grandiosity that will then lead to a crashing down into the depths of despair. Belief in these Initiations is the height of egoism, as well as the conviction that some man or person in a photo is your personal eck God. (gagging):<

          From what I understand about Tao and other similar world views is that a balance is the key, and to borrow in an eclectic fashion, compassion begins with yourself. Depending on your childhood and cultural formation and conditioning, this may be easy or more difficult to become self-actualized in this way. Often finding nice, caring friends or a Therapist is a good way to go.

          I also find it interesting that children are usually the ones to have the happiest moments of laughter and glee, especially if they come from homes in which they are respected, nurtured and not neglected or abused. Hillary had it right in her book It Takes a Village. Just think how different Society would be if the center of concern was on Children. It's not Rocket Science.

          In My Opinion IMO

          Question Authority

          Tygerpurr ; )

          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
          >
          > This has all been said before in far more eloquent ways, but I guess I'll repeat it once again:
          >
          > Notice how many spiritual teachings assert that they are the best, highest, most direct, most advanced, fastest? In so many instances of contact I've had with followers of religion, it usually boils down to them "teaching" me something they presume to know that I lack, before they even know anything about me, thus asserting superiority to me in some way, and essentially offering me a way to enjoy the superiority that they enjoy, by following their path.
          >
          > But isn't that the antithesis to spirituality? Isn't love, cooperation, working together, helping each other, all in humility, what really matters most of all, and isn't it true that spiritual elitism is what so often gets in the way of that?
          >
          > And when a religious person tries to convert another person to their teaching of "love," aren't they presuming they have more love than the person they're trying to convert? Aren't they trying to thrust a master/follower template on the prospective member? And isn't that a poor way to begin a relationship with another person? To expect submission rather than equality?
          >
          > On a.r.e., most debates come down to people telling me I left eckankar™ because I failed to understand the "inner teachings™", and yet they are the ones falling prey to the delusions of superiority offered by Eckankar™, which is a factor shared by so many religions.
          >
          > And that somehow makes them higher?
          >
          > Leaf
          >




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        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, Interesting perspectives! Other than Twitch and Gail s role in this deception (Eckankar) we also have Darwin and Klemp s version/ deception.
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 21, 2010
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            Hello All,
            Interesting perspectives! Other than Twitch
            and Gail's role in this deception (Eckankar)
            we also have Darwin and Klemp's version/
            deception. IMO-Klemp, by far, is the worst
            of the three.

            BTW- In regards to that PT quote, I too
            recognize some of that from other sources
            and it sounds like something I or any of
            us former Eckists would say. Paul probably
            paraphrased it as he did with most of what
            he wrote. Thus, he "tweaked" it in order for
            his revised Eastern "spiritual message" to
            fit-in with Western society and our expectations.
            Also, two key elements that Twit eliminated
            (revised) were the Sant Mat requirements
            of chastity and vegetarianism.

            Klemp has taken Paul's revised Eastern
            approach and revised it even further to
            fit-in with his Christian views/training.
            Therefore, Eckankar has become a watered
            down blend of the Eckankar that attracted
            these long-time Eckists in the first place!

            Klemp, also, took a similar approach to
            what David mentioned by keeping Eckists
            distracted and preoccupied with busy work
            and focused upon their own shortcomings
            versus that of their leader. Guilt and blame
            always falls upon the shoulders of chelas
            and H.I.s. Plus, none of the LEMs ever felt
            the need to divulge Eckankar's financial
            records to the membership. This was one
            reason Klemp moved Eckankar out of Calif.
            due to the new open disclosure laws for
            non-profits.

            Is Eckankar more or as sinister than/as
            other religions? No, however, it has the
            potential to be as sinister. The secrecy
            (of doing business) and the intimidation
            practices (involving initiations) along with
            the unquestionable and unchallenged
            power that Klemp welds makes Eckankar
            a potentially sinister religion. Klemp has
            stated that he's "not perfect" but his
            opinions and rules cannot be questioned...
            like the Pope, except, HK was "elected"
            by a "Black Magician." Klemp's a dictator
            that has the potential to go off the deep
            end and take others with him.

            However, IMO, there is one litmus test
            that all religions must pass in order to
            determine their danger to society.

            How do they treat women?

            That's the key. Because if they treat
            their own (mothers, sisters, wives, etc.)
            with cruelty then they are extremely
            dangerous and not really "spiritual"
            at all!

            Eckankar is typical in that women
            cannot ever occupy the top position,
            although, all Souls are supposedly
            equal to all other Souls. It's a contradiction
            that is explained away due to the
            differences between the "outer" coarse
            lower plane vibrations and that of
            the "inner" plane bodies and realities.
            Except, Soul is still Soul on the physical
            as it is on the higher planes and I
            don't believe that physical world
            physics/science would uphold PT's
            (Eckankar's) convoluted positive/
            negative atom myth in regard to
            men versus women.

            Taking this Soul=Soul thing further
            one has to wonder why Eckists have
            placed Klemp upon a pedestal above
            themselves when they are supposedly
            equals. It's probably because equality
            is never really promoted in Eckankar.
            The initiations prevent any possibility
            of this ever happening.

            Anyway, it just tickles me as being
            really funny that I too fell for the
            "positive versus negative atom"
            reason as to why women can't be
            the Top God/Dog of the outer
            Eckankar hierarchy. How naive and
            trusting I was! And, long-time H.I.s
            (RESAs too) still believe/accept this
            crap! LOL!

            Really! Eckists think that they are on
            the most advanced/direct spiritual
            path to God and that they are advanced
            Souls with a very "high" consciousness
            led by the most advanced (14th Plane)
            God-man anywhere... the LEM/Mahanta...
            Harold Klemp. Yet, Eckists are willing
            to accept this ridiculous ekplanation!
            But what else is false? This is why they
            are afraid of opening a Pandora's box
            and why they accept anything Klump
            tells them. They don't want to know
            the truth because that would mean
            their whole imaginary world they have
            built upon would collapse. Then what?

            Klemp has encouraged Eckists to take
            the same "leap-of-faith" that Christian
            based religious followers have taken.
            Eckists have put their blinders on so
            that they don't have to see the truth!
            Seeing the truth would lead them to
            freedom from religion and they aren't
            ready for that. Thus, they are trapped
            and, yet, this too is their "test."

            Anyway, other than that Eckankar does
            treat women as equals to men. However,
            it makes me wonder...

            If Klemp concocted a special "Cool Aid"
            death mix of some sort... (in order to be
            transported immediately to Agam Lok, etc.)
            how many loyal EK followers would drink it?

            Prometheus


            David wrote:
            Hi Tyger,

            Yes, being made to feel deficient or lacking in some way is probably the basis of all religious and cultic conversion and manipulation. I was involved with a certain yoga cult in Romania after I drifted out of Eckankar, in which I saw that the rank and file members were held in check and kept preoccupied with working on their own supposed shortcomings, which were pointed out to them by the guru and the leaders, as a kind of smokescreen to keep the followers from looking too deeply into the leaders' shenanigans behind the scenes.

            Nevertheless, in many ways, the whole Eck manipulation by making someone feel deficient or lacking is nowhere near as bad as the huge burden of guilt and sinfulness that is put upon members of a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian sect. One of Paul Twitchell's written sayings that I liked the most, and identified with most strongly, is this:

            "Man is a god clothed in rags, a master of the universe going about begging for a crust of bread. He could be free. He has only to step out of his own self made prison, because no one holds him there but himself."

            In fact, it sounds so good that Paul Twitchell probably had to have lifted it or plagiarized it from somewhere - does anybody know where?

            And here is a deeper existential question for you all: Which is better, and which is worse: a religious teaching that makes you feel deficient in relation to a hyperinflated superglorious pie in the sky ideal, or a religous teaching that makes you feel deficient by telling you that you are a sinful wretch to begin with, and the scum of the earth? To me, the fundamentalist and puritanical Christian way of doing the latter is far more injurious and destructive. Nevertheless, you might argue that the former, being a subtler and seemingly more benign form of teaching, is more insidious and misleading...

            David

            tygerpurr wrote:

            Yes that's exactly how it is, you are somehow always deficient in someway and the attempt to convert you can be subtle to very overbearing. I remember one man using a technique he had obviously been taught in which he was attempting to convince me of some "void" I must be experiencing and so must accept Jesus in some form of totality. For many this works because in fact, no matter what your religious beliefs, the human condition always involves never measuring up to some ultimate Ideal or perfection. We are beings in process, and we will all at some time die and in that process will experience loss. That someone can convince you that there is an actual eternal Happiness or even never ending euphoria is absurd and may even be a leading you down the road to a very unhappy life and self-hate.

            eckankar is just the creation of a false self, divorced from living as good a life as you can. Compassion to me is key. We must not give into the temptation of delusional Grandiosity that will then lead to a crashing down into the depths of despair. Belief in these Initiations is the height of egoism, as well as the conviction that some man or person in a photo is your personal eck God. (gagging):<

            From what I understand about Tao and other similar world views is that a balance is the key, and to borrow in an eclectic fashion, compassion begins with yourself. Depending on your childhood and cultural formation and conditioning, this may be easy or more difficult to become self-actualized in this way. Often finding nice, caring friends or a Therapist is a good way to go.

            I also find it interesting that children are usually the ones to have the happiest moments of laughter and glee, especially if they come from homes in which they are respected, nurtured and not neglected or abused. Hillary had it right in her book It Takes a Village. Just think how different Society would be if the center of concern was on Children. It's not Rocket Science.

            In My Opinion IMO

            Question Authority

            Tygerpurr ; )

            "tomleafeater" wrote:
            >
            This has all been said before in far more eloquent ways, but I guess I'll repeat it once again:
            >
            Notice how many spiritual teachings assert that they are the best, highest, most direct, most advanced, fastest? In so many instances of contact I've had with followers of religion, it usually boils down to them "teaching" me something they presume to know that I lack, before they even know anything about me, thus asserting superiority to me in some way, and essentially offering me a way to enjoy the superiority that they enjoy, by following their path.
            >
            But isn't that the antithesis to spirituality? Isn't love, cooperation, working together, helping each other, all in humility, what really matters most of all, and isn't it true that spiritual elitism is what so often gets in the way of that?
            >
            And when a religious person tries to convert another person to their teaching of "love," aren't they presuming they have more love than the person they're trying to convert? Aren't they trying to thrust a master/follower template on the prospective member? And isn't that a poor way to begin a relationship with another person? To expect submission rather than equality?
            >
            On a.r.e., most debates come down to people telling me I left eckankar because I failed to understand the "inner teachings", and yet they are the ones falling prey to the delusions of superiority offered by Eckankar, which is a factor shared by so many religions.
            >
            And that somehow makes them higher?
            >
            Leaf
          • David Osborn
            Dear Promo,      Thanks for the megarant!                            David ... From: prometheus_973
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 21, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Promo,
                   Thanks for the megarant!
                                         David

              --- On Thu, 10/21/10, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: A little rant
              To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 10:52 AM

              Hello All,
              Interesting perspectives! Other than Twitch
              and Gail's role in this deception (Eckankar)
              we also have Darwin and Klemp's version/
              deception. IMO-Klemp, by far, is the worst
              of the three.

              BTW- In regards to that PT quote, I too
              recognize some of that from other sources
              and it sounds like something I or any of
              us former Eckists would say. Paul probably
              paraphrased it as he did with most of what
              he wrote. Thus, he "tweaked" it in order for
              his revised Eastern "spiritual message" to
              fit-in with Western society and our expectations.
              Also, two key elements that Twit eliminated
              (revised) were the Sant Mat requirements
              of chastity and vegetarianism. 

              Klemp has taken Paul's revised Eastern
              approach and revised it even further to
              fit-in with his Christian views/training.
              Therefore, Eckankar has become a watered
              down blend of the Eckankar that attracted
              these long-time Eckists in the first place!

              Klemp, also, took a similar approach to
              what David mentioned by keeping Eckists
              distracted and preoccupied with busy work
              and focused upon their own shortcomings
              versus that of their leader. Guilt and blame
              always falls upon the shoulders of chelas
              and H.I.s. Plus, none of the LEMs ever felt
              the need to divulge Eckankar's financial
              records to the membership. This was one
              reason Klemp moved Eckankar out of Calif.
              due to the new open disclosure laws for
              non-profits.

              Is Eckankar more or as sinister than/as
              other religions? No, however, it has the
              potential to be as sinister. The secrecy
              (of doing business) and the intimidation
              practices (involving initiations) along with
              the unquestionable and unchallenged
              power that Klemp welds makes Eckankar
              a potentially sinister religion. Klemp has
              stated that he's "not perfect" but his
              opinions and rules cannot be questioned...
              like the Pope, except, HK was "elected"
              by a "Black Magician." Klemp's a dictator
              that has the potential to go off the deep
              end and take others with him.

              However, IMO, there is one litmus test
              that all religions must pass in order to
              determine their danger to society.

              How do they treat women?

              That's the key. Because if they treat
              their own (mothers, sisters, wives, etc.)
              with cruelty then they are extremely
              dangerous and not really "spiritual"
              at all!

              Eckankar is typical in that women
              cannot ever occupy the top position,
              although, all Souls are supposedly
              equal to all other Souls. It's a contradiction
              that is explained away due to the
              differences between the "outer" coarse
              lower plane vibrations and that of
              the "inner" plane bodies and realities.
              Except, Soul is still Soul on the physical
              as it is on the higher planes and I
              don't believe that physical world
              physics/science would uphold PT's
              (Eckankar's) convoluted positive/
              negative atom myth in regard to
              men versus women.

              Taking this Soul=Soul thing further
              one has to wonder why Eckists have
              placed Klemp upon a pedestal above
              themselves when they are supposedly
              equals. It's probably because equality
              is never really promoted in Eckankar.
              The initiations prevent any possibility
              of this ever happening.

              Anyway, it just tickles me as being
              really funny that I too fell for the
              "positive versus negative atom"
              reason as to why women can't be
              the Top God/Dog of the outer
              Eckankar hierarchy. How naive and
              trusting I was! And, long-time H.I.s
              (RESAs too) still believe/accept this
              crap! LOL!

              Really! Eckists think that they are on
              the most advanced/direct spiritual
              path to God and that they are advanced
              Souls with a very "high" consciousness
              led by the most advanced (14th Plane)
              God-man anywhere... the LEM/Mahanta...
              Harold Klemp. Yet, Eckists are willing
              to accept this ridiculous ekplanation!
              But what else is false? This is why they
              are afraid of opening a Pandora's box
              and why they accept anything Klump
              tells them. They don't want to know
              the truth because that would mean
              their whole imaginary world they have
              built upon would collapse. Then what?

              Klemp has encouraged Eckists to take
              the same "leap-of-faith" that Christian
              based religious followers have taken.
              Eckists have put their blinders on so
              that they don't have to see the truth!
              Seeing the truth would lead them to
              freedom from religion and they aren't
              ready for that. Thus, they are trapped
              and, yet, this too is their "test."

              Anyway, other than that Eckankar does
              treat women as equals to men. However,
              it makes me wonder...

              If Klemp concocted a special "Cool Aid"
              death mix of some sort... (in order to be
              transported immediately to Agam Lok, etc.)
              how many loyal EK followers would drink it?

              Prometheus


              David wrote:
              Hi Tyger,

              Yes, being made to feel deficient or lacking in some way is probably the basis of all religious and cultic conversion and manipulation.  I was involved with a certain yoga cult in Romania after I drifted out of Eckankar, in which I saw that the rank and file members were held in check and kept preoccupied with working on their own supposed shortcomings, which were pointed out to them by the guru and the leaders, as a kind of smokescreen to keep the followers from looking too deeply into the leaders' shenanigans behind the scenes. 

              Nevertheless, in many ways, the whole Eck manipulation by making someone feel deficient or lacking is nowhere near as bad as the huge burden of guilt and sinfulness that is put upon members of a fundamentalist or evangelical Christian sect.  One of Paul Twitchell's written sayings that I liked the most, and identified with most strongly, is this:

              "Man is a god clothed in rags, a master of the universe going about begging for a crust of bread.  He could be free.  He has only to step out of his own self made prison, because no one holds him there but himself."

              In fact, it sounds so good that Paul Twitchell probably had to have lifted it or plagiarized it from somewhere - does anybody know where?
                                                                             
              And here is a deeper existential question for you all:  Which is better, and which is worse: a religious teaching that makes you feel deficient in relation to a hyperinflated superglorious pie in the sky ideal, or a religous teaching that makes you feel deficient by telling you that you are a sinful wretch to begin with, and the scum of the earth?  To me, the fundamentalist and puritanical Christian way of doing the latter is far more injurious and destructive.  Nevertheless, you might argue that the former, being a subtler and seemingly more benign form of teaching, is more insidious and misleading...

                                                                      David

              tygerpurr wrote:

              Yes that's exactly how it is, you are somehow always deficient in someway and the attempt to convert you can be subtle to very overbearing. I remember one man using a technique he had obviously been taught in which he was attempting to convince me of some "void" I must be experiencing and so must accept Jesus in some form of totality. For many this works because in fact, no matter what your religious beliefs, the human condition always involves never measuring up to some ultimate Ideal or perfection. We are beings in process, and we will all at some time die and in that process will experience loss. That someone can convince you that there is an actual eternal Happiness or even never ending euphoria is absurd and may even be a leading you down the road to a very unhappy life and self-hate.

              eckankar is just the creation of a false self, divorced from living as good a life as you can. Compassion to me is key. We must not give into the temptation of delusional Grandiosity that will then lead to a crashing down into the depths of despair. Belief in these Initiations is the height of egoism, as well as the conviction that some man or person in a photo is your personal eck God. (gagging):<

              From what I understand about Tao and other similar world views is that a balance is the key, and to borrow in an eclectic fashion, compassion begins with yourself. Depending on your childhood and cultural formation and conditioning, this may be easy or more difficult to become self-actualized in this way. Often finding nice, caring friends or a Therapist is a good way to go.

              I also find it interesting that children are usually the ones to have the happiest moments of laughter and glee, especially if they come from homes in which they are respected, nurtured and not neglected or abused. Hillary had it right in her book It Takes a Village. Just think how different Society would be if the center of concern was on Children. It's not Rocket Science.

              In My Opinion IMO

              Question Authority

              Tygerpurr ; )

              "tomleafeater" wrote:
              >
              This has all been said before in far more eloquent ways, but I guess I'll repeat it once again:
              >
              Notice how many spiritual teachings assert that they are the best, highest, most direct, most advanced, fastest? In so many instances of contact I've had with followers of religion, it usually boils down to them "teaching" me something they presume to know that I lack, before they even know anything about me, thus asserting superiority to me in some way, and essentially offering me a way to enjoy the superiority that they enjoy, by following their path.
              >
              But isn't that the antithesis to spirituality? Isn't love, cooperation, working together, helping each other, all in humility, what really matters most of all, and isn't it true that spiritual elitism is what so often gets in the way of that?
              >
              And when a religious person tries to convert another person to their teaching of "love," aren't they presuming they have more love than the person they're trying to convert? Aren't they trying to thrust a master/follower template on the prospective member? And isn't that a poor way to begin a relationship with another person? To expect submission rather than equality?
              >
              On a.r.e., most debates come down to people telling me I left eckankar because I failed to understand the "inner teachings", and yet they are the ones falling prey to the delusions of superiority offered by Eckankar, which is a factor shared by so many religions.
              >
              And that somehow makes them higher?
              >
              Leaf



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