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Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion

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  • tygerpurr
    You are absolutely right on! I recall reading Tigers Fang and some of the other fictions with that feeling of maybe I had found my true place where physical
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 9, 2010
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      You are absolutely right on! I recall reading Tigers Fang and some of the other fictions with that feeling of maybe I had found my true place where physical reality is melted away by the spirit world. It is a wonderful fantasy, the stuff of movie special effects. What got me was that my dream state can be very suggestible, and I am so trusting that I am still to this day quite disturbed when I find out that someone has lied to me or fooled me again with a sales pitch. You really want to believe in a world where everyone is nice and truthful and wants you to do nice things for you all the time forever after. Life is really just a mixed bag, and sometimes wonderful and fun, but also Life can just be plain tough

      The best spirituality for me, is to give myself a break as often as I can, learn to be my own best friend, learning to just like myself. Funny that us humans have a hard time with that one. The smile quotient would go up a lot just by developing a habit of compassion towards ourselves.

      Tygerpurr ; )

      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
      >
      >
      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
      > >
      > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
      > >
      > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
      > >
      >
    • al_radzik
      ... This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW God. Feelings are not facts. You
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 11, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Al,
        >      That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
        >

        This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.


        >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 

        Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.


        >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
        > things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 

        I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
        One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.

        Alf

        >
        > May the Blessings Be,
        > David
        >
        > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        >
        > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
        > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
        >
        > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
        > behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
        >
        >
        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
        > >
        > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually
        > left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
        > >
        > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • harrisonferrel
        When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 15, 2010
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          When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.




          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Al,
          > >      That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
          > >
          >
          > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.
          >
          >
          > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 
          >
          > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
          >
          >
          > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
          > > things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
          >
          > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
          > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
          >
          > Alf
          >
          > >
          > > May the Blessings Be,
          > > David
          > >
          > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          > >
          > > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
          > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
          > >
          > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
          > > behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
          > > >
          > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually
          > > left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
          > > >
          > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          >
        • David Osborn
          That s where you and I part company, Harrison!  In spite of my disillusionment with Eckankar, I still believe in God, as I did before I even heard about
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 15, 2010
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            That's where you and I part company, Harrison!  In spite of my disillusionment with Eckankar, I still believe in God, as I did before I even heard about Eckankar, and probably will for the rest of my life.  I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, but of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, as your own life experience shows you.
                                                        May the Blessings (God-ful or Godless) Be!
                                                                       David

            --- On Fri, 10/15/10, harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            From: harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
            To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 12:59 PM

            When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.




            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Al,
            > >      That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
            > > 
            >
            > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.
            >
            >
            > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 
            >
            > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
            >
            >
            > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
            > >  things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
            >
            > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
            > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
            >
            > Alf
            >
            > >
            > > May the Blessings Be,
            > > David
            > >
            > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > >
            > > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
            > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
            > >
            > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
            > >  behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
            > >
            > >
            > >  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
            > > >
            > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually
            > >  left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
            > > >
            > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            >




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          • etznab@aol.com
            On the History Channel the other day I watched three programs back to back. Modern Marvels (had to do with evolution of weapons technology, etc. during about
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 15, 2010
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              On the History Channel the other day I watched
              three programs back to back. Modern Marvels
              (had to do with evolution of weapons technology,
              etc. during about the first five centuries A.D.),
              The Dark Ages (covered history up to about the
              10th century A.D.) and The History of Sex (up
              to about the 16th century and Protestant Refor-
              mation).

              Basically I watched a summary of history from
              about the first 1,000 to 1,500 yrs. A.D. Topics
              were given in context to world events at the time.

              You know what struck me most during all of that
              history? How many freaking wars and the ways
              people behaved in the name of Religion & God.

              There have been wars after wars after wars both
              before and after the alleged birth of Christ. And I
              say to myself that if people really knew God the
              number of wars would be far less.

              How many times did "God" allegedly condone
              war? Even instigate war? Over all the centuries?
              How much money and power are people getting
              and making from wars today? Do they even care
              if started on false premises? Over 77,000 Iraqis
              dead according to U.S. military over 5 years.

              (Did anybody see the movie Green Zone? Need
              I say more?)

              I think one has to clarify what is meant by "God"
              because, IMO, it could amount to a person(s)
              warped understanding of truth. It could amount
              to malignant imagination run a muck!

              I was commenting / adding to a point that came
              up in an earlier post about "God". Namely, there
              are some really strange Gods out there, IMO. &
              I don't necessarily blame others for not believing
              in those.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...>
              To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, Oct 15, 2010 4:29 pm
              Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God

               
              That's where you and I part company, Harrison!  In spite of my
              disillusionment with Eckankar, I still believe in God, as I did before
              I even heard about Eckankar, and probably will for the rest of my
              life.  I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here,
              but of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, as your own life
              experience shows you.
                                                          May the Blessings (God-ful
              or Godless) Be!
                                                                         David

              --- On Fri, 10/15/10, harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
              wrote:

              From: harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
              To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 12:59 PM

              When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely
              unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is
              as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either
              have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions
              and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create
              deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief
              in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.




              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn
              <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Al,
              > >      That may have been your experience and perception of
              things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for
              many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their
              sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But
              throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized
              mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in
              gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not
              been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual
              struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is
              impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting,
              I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
              > > 
              >
              > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective
              experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings
              are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will
              never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion.
              Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and
              seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation
              are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do
              they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds
              like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain
              church to get followers.
              >
              >
              > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization
              is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may
              have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few
              possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine,
              are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self
              absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the
              spiritual path. 
              >
              > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through
              me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside
              knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're
              tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
              >
              >
              > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my
              experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar,
              especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of
              failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with
              my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality
              and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a
              secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
              > >  things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal
              experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
              >
              > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it
              doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the
              endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization,
              but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and
              Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30
              membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded
              reason and skepticism that I post.
              > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off
              with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
              >
              > Alf
              >
              > >
              > > May the Blessings Be,
              > > David
              > >
              > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik
              <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              > >
              > > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
              > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
              > >
              > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with
              Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I
              initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true
              account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off
              and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY
              way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
              > >  behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big
              ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God
              than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK
              book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We
              cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar
              keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of
              entitlement.
              > >
              > >
              > >  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
              <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a
              featured headline in The Onion.
              > > >
              > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the
              beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard
              to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned
              this stuff while in the cult then eventually
              > >  left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the
              first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of
              lunatics.
              > > >
              > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop
              scratching my head in wonder.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >




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            • David Osborn
              Yep, and one important god to the Greeks and Romans, and to many other peoples throughout history, was Ares / Mars, the God of War.  The old Greco-Roman gods
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 15, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Yep, and one important god to the Greeks and Romans, and to many other peoples throughout history, was Ares / Mars, the God of War.  The old Greco-Roman gods were powerful archetypes that represented universal forces, or drives, in the human mind and psyche, that demand expression.  Mars, the God of War, represents the aggressive drive in man, which is quite hard and difficult to channel properly into positive, constructive modes of expression; all too often, the low road of violence and war is taken.  Even if the person is monotheistic, this universal archetype of the aggressive drive in man still finds expression, and they say, "God told me to go to war", instead of a god, Mars.  It seems like most of the Bible is devoted to the whole "my God is better than your god" bit, and as proof of my God's superiority, and of God being on my side, my army will wipe your army out.  I think that Deepak Chopra is right in that the human race needs to evolve, in their conception of God, beyond the stage of jealous and vengeful tribal deities.
                                                               David

                --- On Fri, 10/15/10, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
                To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 3:29 PM


                On the History Channel the other day I watched
                three programs back to back. Modern Marvels
                (had to do with evolution of weapons technology,
                etc. during about the first five centuries A.D.),
                The Dark Ages (covered history up to about the
                10th century A.D.) and The History of Sex (up
                to about the 16th century and Protestant Refor-
                mation).

                Basically I watched a summary of history from
                about the first 1,000 to 1,500 yrs. A.D. Topics
                were given in context to world events at the time.

                You know what struck me most during all of that
                history? How many freaking wars and the ways
                people behaved in the name of Religion & God.

                There have been wars after wars after wars both
                before and after the alleged birth of Christ. And I
                say to myself that if people really knew God the
                number of wars would be far less.

                How many times did "God" allegedly condone
                war? Even instigate war? Over all the centuries?
                How much money and power are people getting
                and making from wars today? Do they even care
                if started on false premises? Over 77,000 Iraqis
                dead according to U.S. military over 5 years.

                (Did anybody see the movie Green Zone? Need
                I say more?)

                I think one has to clarify what is meant by "God"
                because, IMO, it could amount to a person(s)
                warped understanding of truth. It could amount
                to malignant imagination run a muck!

                I was commenting / adding to a point that came
                up in an earlier post about "God". Namely, there
                are some really strange Gods out there, IMO. &
                I don't necessarily blame others for not believing
                in those.

                Etznab

                -----Original Message-----
                From: David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...>
                To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, Oct 15, 2010 4:29 pm
                Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God

                 
                That's where you and I part company, Harrison!  In spite of my
                disillusionment with Eckankar, I still believe in God, as I did before
                I even heard about Eckankar, and probably will for the rest of my
                life.  I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here,
                but of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, as your own life
                experience shows you.
                                                            May the Blessings (God-ful
                or Godless) Be!
                                                                           David

                --- On Fri, 10/15/10, harrisonferrel &lt;no_reply@yahoogroups.com&gt;
                wrote:

                From: harrisonferrel &lt;no_reply@yahoogroups.com&gt;
                Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
                To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 12:59 PM

                When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely
                unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is
                as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either
                have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions
                and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create
                deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief
                in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.




                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik &lt;no_reply@...&gt;
                wrote:
                &gt;
                &gt;
                &gt;
                &gt; --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn
                &lt;panfluteman2000@&gt; wrote:
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; Hello Al,
                &gt; &gt;      That may have been your experience and perception of
                things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for
                many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their
                sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But
                throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized
                mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in
                gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not
                been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual
                struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is
                impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting,
                I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                &gt; &gt; 
                &gt;
                &gt; This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective
                experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings
                are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will
                never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion.
                Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and
                seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation
                are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do
                they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds
                like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain
                church to get followers.
                &gt;
                &gt;
                &gt; &gt;      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization
                is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may
                have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few
                possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine,
                are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self
                absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the
                spiritual path. 
                &gt;
                &gt; Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through
                me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside
                knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're
                tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                &gt;
                &gt;
                &gt; &gt;      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my
                experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar,
                especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of
                failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with
                my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality
                and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a
                secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                &gt; &gt;  things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal
                experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                &gt;
                &gt; I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it
                doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the
                endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization,
                but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and
                Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30
                membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded
                reason and skepticism that I post.
                &gt; One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off
                with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                &gt;
                &gt; Alf
                &gt;
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; May the Blessings Be,
                &gt; &gt; David
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik
                &lt;no_reply@yahoogroups.com&gt; wrote:
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; From: al_radzik &lt;no_reply@yahoogroups.com&gt;
                &gt; &gt; Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
                &gt; &gt; To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                &gt; &gt; Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with
                Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I
                initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true
                account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off
                and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY
                way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
                &gt; &gt;  behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big
                ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God
                than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK
                book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We
                cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar
                keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of
                entitlement.
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt;  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                &lt;no_reply@&gt; wrote:
                &gt; &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a
                featured headline in The Onion.
                &gt; &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; &gt; Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the
                beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard
                to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned
                this stuff while in the cult then eventually
                &gt; &gt;  left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the
                first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of
                lunatics.
                &gt; &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; &gt; To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop
                scratching my head in wonder.
                &gt; &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; ------------------------------------
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt; &gt; Yahoo! Groups Links
                &gt; &gt;
                &gt;




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              • tomleafeater
                Thank you Harrison! Yes! The Taoists don t believe in god but in a non-sentient Way. Likewise, essentially pure Buddhist philosophy doesn t have a god
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 15, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thank you Harrison!

                  Yes! The Taoists don't believe in "god" but in a non-sentient "Way." Likewise, essentially pure Buddhist philosophy doesn't have a "god" per se, but rather speaks of the Void.

                  The personal god concept is ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

                  Leaf

                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello Al,
                  > > >      That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 
                  > >
                  > > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                  > > > things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                  > >
                  > > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
                  > > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                  > >
                  > > Alf
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > May the Blessings Be,
                  > > > David
                  > > >
                  > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
                  > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
                  > > >
                  > > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
                  > > > behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually
                  > > > left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • harrisonferrel
                  I m entitled to my own opinion, but you have to criticize them anyway. I could debate the god and religion issue until the sun burns out, but there s no point.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 21, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I'm entitled to my own opinion, but you have to criticize them anyway. I could debate the god and religion issue until the sun burns out, but there's no point.

                    I think the main problem is that to call eckankar wacky and unfounded (which it is) and not put every religion and belief system to the same test with historical consideration is merely to find comfort in a new form ignorance.

                    God was invented, pure and simple. Before god, there were gods. At some point in history, somebody invented the idea of one god. So now it's sacrosanct for some stupid reason.




                    --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That's where you and I part company, Harrison!  In spite of my disillusionment with Eckankar, I still believe in God, as I did before I even heard about Eckankar, and probably will for the rest of my life.  I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, but of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, as your own life experience shows you.
                    >                                             May the Blessings (God-ful or Godless) Be!
                    >                                                            David
                    >
                    > --- On Fri, 10/15/10, harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
                    > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 12:59 PM
                    >
                    > When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello Al,
                    > > >      That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                    > > > 
                    > >
                    > > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 
                    > >
                    > > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                    > > >  things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                    > >
                    > > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
                    > > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                    > >
                    > > Alf
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > May the Blessings Be,
                    > > > David
                    > > >
                    > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
                    > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
                    > > >
                    > > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
                    > > >  behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually
                    > > >  left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                  • harrisonferrel
                    You re right about god being used as an excuse for war throughout the ages. It s the excuse right now for Muslims strapping bombs to themselves and walking
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 21, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      You're right about god being used as an excuse for war throughout the ages. It's the excuse right now for Muslims strapping bombs to themselves and walking onto buses or planes. It's the excuse for people to murder abortion doctors in order to save babies. And on and on and on. But what makes one invented god and his works better than, say, eckankar. They are all unfounded and began the same way as eckankar — as cults with some guy telling everybody that the cult is based on divine wisdom and love.



                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > On the History Channel the other day I watched
                      > three programs back to back. Modern Marvels
                      > (had to do with evolution of weapons technology,
                      > etc. during about the first five centuries A.D.),
                      > The Dark Ages (covered history up to about the
                      > 10th century A.D.) and The History of Sex (up
                      > to about the 16th century and Protestant Refor-
                      > mation).
                      >
                      > Basically I watched a summary of history from
                      > about the first 1,000 to 1,500 yrs. A.D. Topics
                      > were given in context to world events at the time.
                      >
                      > You know what struck me most during all of that
                      > history? How many freaking wars and the ways
                      > people behaved in the name of Religion & God.
                      >
                      > There have been wars after wars after wars both
                      > before and after the alleged birth of Christ. And I
                      > say to myself that if people really knew God the
                      > number of wars would be far less.
                      >
                      > How many times did "God" allegedly condone
                      > war? Even instigate war? Over all the centuries?
                      > How much money and power are people getting
                      > and making from wars today? Do they even care
                      > if started on false premises? Over 77,000 Iraqis
                      > dead according to U.S. military over 5 years.
                      >
                      > (Did anybody see the movie Green Zone? Need
                      > I say more?)
                      >
                      > I think one has to clarify what is meant by "God"
                      > because, IMO, it could amount to a person(s)
                      > warped understanding of truth. It could amount
                      > to malignant imagination run a muck!
                      >
                      > I was commenting / adding to a point that came
                      > up in an earlier post about "God". Namely, there
                      > are some really strange Gods out there, IMO. &
                      > I don't necessarily blame others for not believing
                      > in those.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...>
                      > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Fri, Oct 15, 2010 4:29 pm
                      > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
                      >
                      >  
                      > That's where you and I part company, Harrison!  In spite of my
                      > disillusionment with Eckankar, I still believe in God, as I did before
                      > I even heard about Eckankar, and probably will for the rest of my
                      > life.  I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here,
                      > but of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, as your own life
                      > experience shows you.
                      >                                             May the Blessings (God-ful
                      > or Godless) Be!
                      >                                                            David
                      >
                      > --- On Fri, 10/15/10, harrisonferrel no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > From: harrisonferrel no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
                      > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 12:59 PM
                      >
                      > When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely
                      > unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is
                      > as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either
                      > have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions
                      > and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create
                      > deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief
                      > in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik no_reply@
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn
                      > <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello Al,
                      > > >      That may have been your experience and perception of
                      > things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for
                      > many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their
                      > sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But
                      > throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized
                      > mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in
                      > gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not
                      > been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual
                      > struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is
                      > impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting,
                      > I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                      > > > 
                      > >
                      > > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective
                      > experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings
                      > are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will
                      > never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion.
                      > Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and
                      > seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation
                      > are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do
                      > they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds
                      > like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain
                      > church to get followers.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization
                      > is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may
                      > have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few
                      > possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine,
                      > are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self
                      > absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the
                      > spiritual path. 
                      > >
                      > > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through
                      > me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside
                      > knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're
                      > tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my
                      > experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar,
                      > especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of
                      > failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with
                      > my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality
                      > and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a
                      > secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                      > > >  things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal
                      > experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                      > >
                      > > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it
                      > doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the
                      > endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization,
                      > but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and
                      > Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30
                      > membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded
                      > reason and skepticism that I post.
                      > > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off
                      > with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                      > >
                      > > Alf
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > May the Blessings Be,
                      > > > David
                      > > >
                      > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik
                      > no_reply@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > From: al_radzik no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
                      > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
                      > > >
                      > > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with
                      > Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I
                      > initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true
                      > account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off
                      > and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY
                      > way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
                      > > >  behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big
                      > ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God
                      > than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK
                      > book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We
                      > cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar
                      > keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of
                      > entitlement.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                      > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a
                      > featured headline in The Onion.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the
                      > beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard
                      > to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned
                      > this stuff while in the cult then eventually
                      > > >  left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the
                      > first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of
                      > lunatics.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop
                      > scratching my head in wonder.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                      >
                      > <*> Your email settings:
                      >     Individual Email | Traditional
                      >
                      > <*> To change settings online go to:
                      >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/join
                      >     (Yahoo! ID required)
                      >
                      > <*> To change settings via email:
                      >     eckankartruth-digest@yahoogroups.com
                      >   & nbsp; eckankartruth-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      >     eckankartruth-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      >     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                    • harrisonferrel
                      David, I agree with this one statement of Chopra s, but it will never happen. The human race only evolves so far, but the eternal struggle is between those
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 21, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        David, I agree with this one statement of Chopra's, but it will never happen. The human race only evolves so far, but the eternal struggle is between those with more and less degrees of conscience.

                        If you have to invent a god and a holy book to tell people how they should behave to avoid hurting others, then there's a fundamental problem in that people are wont to do such things in the first place. The proof is in history itself. Politics and religion are the worst symptoms.


                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yep, and one important god to the Greeks and Romans, and to many other peoples throughout history, was Ares / Mars, the God of War.  The old Greco-Roman gods were powerful archetypes that represented universal forces, or drives, in the human mind and psyche, that demand expression.  Mars, the God of War, represents the aggressive drive in man, which is quite hard and difficult to channel properly into positive, constructive modes of expression; all too often, the low road of violence and war is taken.  Even if the person is monotheistic, this universal archetype of the aggressive drive in man still finds expression, and they say, "God told me to go to war", instead of a god, Mars.  It seems like most of the Bible is devoted to the whole "my God is better than your god" bit, and as proof of my God's superiority, and of God being on my side, my army will wipe your army out.  I think that Deepak Chopra is right in that the human race needs to evolve,
                        > in their conception of God, beyond the stage of jealous and vengeful tribal deities.
                        >                                                David
                        >
                        > --- On Fri, 10/15/10, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                        > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
                        > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 3:29 PM
                        >
                        >
                        > On the History Channel the other day I watched
                        > three programs back to back. Modern Marvels
                        > (had to do with evolution of weapons technology,
                        > etc. during about the first five centuries A.D.),
                        > The Dark Ages (covered history up to about the
                        > 10th century A.D.) and The History of Sex (up
                        > to about the 16th century and Protestant Refor-
                        > mation).
                        >
                        > Basically I watched a summary of history from
                        > about the first 1,000 to 1,500 yrs. A.D. Topics
                        > were given in context to world events at the time.
                        >
                        > You know what struck me most during all of that
                        > history? How many freaking wars and the ways
                        > people behaved in the name of Religion & God.
                        >
                        > There have been wars after wars after wars both
                        > before and after the alleged birth of Christ. And I
                        > say to myself that if people really knew God the
                        > number of wars would be far less.
                        >
                        > How many times did "God" allegedly condone
                        > war? Even instigate war? Over all the centuries?
                        > How much money and power are people getting
                        > and making from wars today? Do they even care
                        > if started on false premises? Over 77,000 Iraqis
                        > dead according to U.S. military over 5 years.
                        >
                        > (Did anybody see the movie Green Zone? Need
                        > I say more?)
                        >
                        > I think one has to clarify what is meant by "God"
                        > because, IMO, it could amount to a person(s)
                        > warped understanding of truth. It could amount
                        > to malignant imagination run a muck!
                        >
                        > I was commenting / adding to a point that came
                        > up in an earlier post about "God". Namely, there
                        > are some really strange Gods out there, IMO. &
                        > I don't necessarily blame others for not believing
                        > in those.
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...>
                        > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Fri, Oct 15, 2010 4:29 pm
                        > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
                        >
                        >  
                        > That's where you and I part company, Harrison!  In spite of my
                        > disillusionment with Eckankar, I still believe in God, as I did before
                        > I even heard about Eckankar, and probably will for the rest of my
                        > life.  I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here,
                        > but of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, as your own life
                        > experience shows you.
                        >                                             May the Blessings (God-ful
                        > or Godless) Be!
                        >                                                            David
                        >
                        > --- On Fri, 10/15/10, harrisonferrel no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > From: harrisonferrel no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion and God
                        > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 12:59 PM
                        >
                        > When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely
                        > unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is
                        > as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either
                        > have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions
                        > and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create
                        > deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief
                        > in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik no_reply@
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn
                        > <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello Al,
                        > > >      That may have been your experience and perception of
                        > things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for
                        > many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their
                        > sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But
                        > throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized
                        > mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in
                        > gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not
                        > been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual
                        > struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is
                        > impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting,
                        > I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                        > > > 
                        > >
                        > > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective
                        > experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings
                        > are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will
                        > never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion.
                        > Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and
                        > seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation
                        > are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do
                        > they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds
                        > like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain
                        > church to get followers.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization
                        > is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may
                        > have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few
                        > possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine,
                        > are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self
                        > absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the
                        > spiritual path. 
                        > >
                        > > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through
                        > me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside
                        > knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're
                        > tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my
                        > experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar,
                        > especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of
                        > failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with
                        > my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality
                        > and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a
                        > secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                        > > >  things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal
                        > experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                        > >
                        > > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it
                        > doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the
                        > endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization,
                        > but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and
                        > Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30
                        > membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded
                        > reason and skepticism that I post.
                        > > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off
                        > with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                        > >
                        > > Alf
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > May the Blessings Be,
                        > > > David
                        > > >
                        > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik
                        > no_reply@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > From: al_radzik no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
                        > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
                        > > >
                        > > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with
                        > Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I
                        > initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true
                        > account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off
                        > and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY
                        > way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
                        > > >  behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big
                        > ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God
                        > than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK
                        > book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We
                        > cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar
                        > keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of
                        > entitlement.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                        > <no_reply@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a
                        > featured headline in The Onion.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the
                        > beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard
                        > to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned
                        > this stuff while in the cult then eventually
                        > > >  left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the
                        > first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of
                        > lunatics.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop
                        > scratching my head in wonder.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                        >
                        > <*> Your email settings:
                        >     Individual Email | Traditional
                        >
                        > <*> To change settings online go to:
                        >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/join
                        >     (Yahoo! ID required)
                        >
                        > <*> To change settings via email:
                        >     eckankartruth-digest@yahoogroups.com
                        >   & nbsp; eckankartruth-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >     eckankartruth-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                        >     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >              
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                      • harrisonferrel
                        As per usual, I agree with you, Leaf. The problem is that people are quick to criticize how crazy eckankar, scientology or every other religion, but they won t
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 26, 2010
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                          As per usual, I agree with you, Leaf. The problem is that people are quick to criticize how crazy eckankar, scientology or every other religion, but they won't look closely enough at their own beliefs. You have to be pretty bold to be objective.


                          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thank you Harrison!
                          >
                          > Yes! The Taoists don't believe in "god" but in a non-sentient "Way." Likewise, essentially pure Buddhist philosophy doesn't have a "god" per se, but rather speaks of the Void.
                          >
                          > The personal god concept is ridiculous. Just ridiculous.
                          >
                          > Leaf
                          >
                          > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hello Al,
                          > > > >      That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 
                          > > >
                          > > > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                          > > > > things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                          > > >
                          > > > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
                          > > > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                          > > >
                          > > > Alf
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > May the Blessings Be,
                          > > > > David
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
                          > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
                          > > > > behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually
                          > > > > left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ------------------------------------
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • al_radzik
                          Leaf, How can you say that a personal god is ridiculous? Nobody but nobody knows the true essence of God. WE are all just bozos on the bus and there is no
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 4, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Leaf,

                            How can you say that a personal god is ridiculous? Nobody but nobody knows the true essence of God. WE are all just bozos on the bus and there is no inside scoop. WE can all get well-read like Campbell and know intimately the tenets of different faiths all over the world but frankly, it's whatever works for YOU and YOU alone. I'm kind of surprised at your statement being that I've always respected your views.

                            Alf






                            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > As per usual, I agree with you, Leaf. The problem is that people are quick to criticize how crazy eckankar, scientology or every other religion, but they won't look closely enough at their own beliefs. You have to be pretty bold to be objective.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thank you Harrison!
                            > >
                            > > Yes! The Taoists don't believe in "god" but in a non-sentient "Way." Likewise, essentially pure Buddhist philosophy doesn't have a "god" per se, but rather speaks of the Void.
                            > >
                            > > The personal god concept is ridiculous. Just ridiculous.
                            > >
                            > > Leaf
                            > >
                            > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hello Al,
                            > > > > >      That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                            > > > > > things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
                            > > > > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Alf
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > May the Blessings Be,
                            > > > > > David
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
                            > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
                            > > > > > behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually
                            > > > > > left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello All, I found the conversation interesting and thought I d share my views. In regard to a personal God? Which one? Or, is this a new/different one or a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 5, 2010
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                              Hello All,
                              I found the conversation interesting
                              and thought I'd share my views.

                              In regard to a "personal" God? Which
                              one? Or, is this a new/different one
                              or a new version than what's been
                              advertised and promoted? Isn't this
                              similar to "American Idol" worship?
                              Or, are We our own "personal God?"

                              My beliefs have been formed by
                              both objective and subjective criteria.
                              Both compliment each other. The
                              objective gives me feedback in order
                              to have/see or identify the subjective
                              experience more clearly and to have
                              a "spiritual knowingness," or revelation.
                              Sometimes these are rather insignificant
                              and other times (less often) they are
                              moments where everything is perfect
                              and in its rightful place in the Universe.
                              It's hard to explain and I'm still uncertain
                              as to my role... maybe it's a private
                              thing. Each of us has to have our own
                              journey, but it's sometimes connected
                              to the journey of another to a degree
                              that makes a difference or not. Sometimes
                              a negative leads to a positive... and
                              vice versa, and sometimes a positive
                              action equals a positive result but
                              nothing is as it seems!

                              Yes, I do believe in Soul and Spirit
                              and that there are nudges and intuition
                              coming from Soul. Therefore, there's
                              no middleman involved except for
                              what I see as me/my "Higher Self."
                              Perhaps, one could say that this/my
                              Higher Self (Soul) is my "personal God."
                              Thus, I AM.... a part of this Divine
                              experience/experiment or Whatever.
                              Religions are for those who have
                              surrendered and given up hope of
                              ever achieving Self Mastery, "God"
                              Knowledge, and Spiritual Freedom.

                              At first religion does offer some
                              positives in that it gets people to
                              think about the divine and to explore
                              their inner selves. It gives people
                              spiritual baby food and then, later,
                              some meat that has already been
                              chewed by others. Religion never
                              gives the individual the freedom
                              to find and chew this spiritual meat
                              on their own because the religious
                              leaders fear that the sheep might
                              leave the confines of the teachings.

                              Religionists are slaves of dogma
                              and are the servants of men... conmen!

                              I find it interesting, that in ECKankar,
                              Eckists claim to be Soul and then
                              they take a subservient position
                              under Klemp (their Mahanta/God)
                              when all Souls are considered equal.

                              Klemp even degrades Eckists (as
                              Mohammad did to women) by
                              referring to them as animals, of
                              various types. Klemp refers to his
                              flock (of sheep) as: eagles, chickens,
                              and foxes while detractors (other
                              Souls) are spoken of as being weeds
                              and bugs. Such is Klemp's (the Mahanta's)
                              all encompassing "love." Klemp can't
                              even follow the example of Jesus
                              (supposedly a 2nd initiate and HK's
                              boyhood friend). Didn't Jesus say,
                              "Love thy enemy" and "If struck, turn
                              the other cheek."

                              And, why do Eckists have an obsession
                              with Animal Angels? Where are the
                              human ones... their dead loved ones?
                              Where are these "stories," or would
                              they compete with Klemp's influence?
                              It seems that this Animal Angel ruse
                              is another distraction so that Eckists
                              won't ask the more important questions.

                              Prometheus

                              al_radzik wrote:

                              Leaf,

                              How can you say that a personal god is ridiculous? Nobody but nobody knows the true essence of God. WE are all just bozos on the bus and there is no inside scoop. WE can all get well-read like Campbell and know intimately the tenets of different faiths all over the world but frankly, it's whatever works for YOU and YOU alone. I'm kind of surprised at your statement being that I've always respected your views.

                              Alf

                              harrisonferrel wrote:

                              As per usual, I agree with you, Leaf. The problem is that people are quick to criticize how crazy eckankar, scientology or every other religion, but they won't look closely enough at their own beliefs. You have to be pretty bold to be objective.


                              "tomleafeater" wrote:

                              Thank you Harrison!

                              Yes! The Taoists don't believe in "god" but in a non-sentient "Way." Likewise, essentially pure Buddhist philosophy doesn't have a "god" per se, but rather speaks of the Void.

                              The personal god concept is ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

                              Leaf

                              harrison ferrel wrote:

                              When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.

                              al_radzik wrote:

                              David Osborn wrote:

                              Hello Al,

                              That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 


                              This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.


                              Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 

                              Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.


                              I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                              things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 

                              I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
                              One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.

                              Alf


                              May the Blessings Be,
                              David


                              al_radzik wrote:

                              I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.


                              harrison ferrel wrote:

                              Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.

                              Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.

                              To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
                            • al_radzik
                              ... I don t know about a new version of a personal God. I am using it generically to denote the God of my childhood but reconditioned in a sense that the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 9, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello All,
                                > I found the conversation interesting
                                > and thought I'd share my views.
                                >
                                > In regard to a "personal" God? Which
                                > one? Or, is this a new/different one
                                > or a new version than what's been
                                > advertised and promoted? Isn't this
                                > similar to "American Idol" worship?
                                > Or, are We our own "personal God?"

                                I don't know about a "new version" of a personal God. I am using it generically to denote the God of my childhood but reconditioned in a sense that the anthropomorphic aspect of "God" is merely metaphoric to accommodate those unfamiliar with gaining spiritual nourishment from the Bible. Therefore, my "new" God is on of love and understanding as opposed to sitting on a heavenly throne waiting for you to fuck up so he can throw you in the fire for eternity. The "evil" mentioned is Hell which I also do not ascribe to. I simply believe it is nescience for those who do not pray, meditate and actively allow God to run their lives. I am a firm believer in faith with works and to spend MORE time on helping others selflessly. This is the essence of Love which is God in it's human incarnate.

                                >
                                > My beliefs have been formed by
                                > both objective and subjective criteria.
                                > Both compliment each other. The
                                > objective gives me feedback in order
                                > to have/see or identify the subjective
                                > experience more clearly and to have
                                > a "spiritual knowingness," or revelation.
                                > Sometimes these are rather insignificant
                                > and other times (less often) they are
                                > moments where everything is perfect
                                > and in its rightful place in the Universe.
                                > It's hard to explain and I'm still uncertain
                                > as to my role... maybe it's a private
                                > thing. Each of us has to have our own
                                > journey, but it's sometimes connected
                                > to the journey of another to a degree
                                > that makes a difference or not. Sometimes
                                > a negative leads to a positive... and
                                > vice versa, and sometimes a positive
                                > action equals a positive result but
                                > nothing is as it seems!

                                There are no large coincidences, just small miracles.

                                >
                                > Yes, I do believe in Soul and Spirit
                                > and that there are nudges and intuition
                                > coming from Soul. Therefore, there's
                                > no middleman involved except for
                                > what I see as me/my "Higher Self."
                                > Perhaps, one could say that this/my
                                > Higher Self (Soul) is my "personal God."
                                > Thus, I AM.... a part of this Divine
                                > experience/experiment or Whatever.
                                > Religions are for those who have
                                > surrendered and given up hope of
                                > ever achieving Self Mastery, "God"
                                > Knowledge, and Spiritual Freedom.
                                >
                                > At first religion does offer some
                                > positives in that it gets people to
                                > think about the divine and to explore
                                > their inner selves. It gives people
                                > spiritual baby food and then, later,
                                > some meat that has already been
                                > chewed by others. Religion never
                                > gives the individual the freedom
                                > to find and chew this spiritual meat
                                > on their own because the religious
                                > leaders fear that the sheep might
                                > leave the confines of the teachings.

                                I read the Bible with a grain of salt but get so much out of it when I hear or read something that just clicks. I sometimes need some help with interpretation but even then, I form my own thoughts about it after all.


                                >
                                > Religionists are slaves of dogma
                                > and are the servants of men... conmen!

                                Yes, there have been many who have given Christianity a bad rap from David Koresh to the Pope but there are most of us who live a quiet and humble sense of surrender and acceptance.

                                >
                                > I find it interesting, that in ECKankar,
                                > Eckists claim to be Soul and then
                                > they take a subservient position
                                > under Klemp (their Mahanta/God)
                                > when all Souls are considered equal.
                                >
                                > Klemp even degrades Eckists (as
                                > Mohammad did to women) by
                                > referring to them as animals, of
                                > various types. Klemp refers to his
                                > flock (of sheep) as: eagles, chickens,
                                > and foxes while detractors (other
                                > Souls) are spoken of as being weeds
                                > and bugs. Such is Klemp's (the Mahanta's)
                                > all encompassing "love." Klemp can't
                                > even follow the example of Jesus
                                > (supposedly a 2nd initiate and HK's
                                > boyhood friend). Didn't Jesus say,
                                > "Love thy enemy" and "If struck, turn
                                > the other cheek."
                                >
                                > And, why do Eckists have an obsession
                                > with Animal Angels? Where are the
                                > human ones... their dead loved ones?
                                > Where are these "stories," or would
                                > they compete with Klemp's influence?
                                > It seems that this Animal Angel ruse
                                > is another distraction so that Eckists
                                > won't ask the more important questions.

                                Eckankar is a cult. The rules change according to which way the wind blows. It braqs about self realization to the point that we can live as gods among God. We strive to live like God, not become God! Klemp's seminars and Temple in Chanhassen as well as "Sunday worship" are all lame carbon copies to attract those coming off a major western religion such as Christianity. What compells people to join Eckankar is that all they have to do is basically pay for membership and initiation. There is absolutely nothing I've read in the books by the Mahantas that has any value as to how to make yourself a better peopsn for OTHERS! It's all a selfish journey. Actaully, Twith made the most sense to me but Klemp is just a blathering fool and has NO business in the world of teaching about God considering his checkered past and his moronic speeches about his view of the world. He is a narcissist.

                                Good stuff Promethus.

                                Al


                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                > al_radzik wrote:
                                >
                                > Leaf,
                                >
                                > How can you say that a personal god is ridiculous? Nobody but nobody knows the true essence of God. WE are all just bozos on the bus and there is no inside scoop. WE can all get well-read like Campbell and know intimately the tenets of different faiths all over the world but frankly, it's whatever works for YOU and YOU alone. I'm kind of surprised at your statement being that I've always respected your views.
                                >
                                > Alf
                                >
                                > harrisonferrel wrote:
                                >
                                > As per usual, I agree with you, Leaf. The problem is that people are quick to criticize how crazy eckankar, scientology or every other religion, but they won't look closely enough at their own beliefs. You have to be pretty bold to be objective.
                                >
                                >
                                > "tomleafeater" wrote:
                                >
                                > Thank you Harrison!
                                >
                                > Yes! The Taoists don't believe in "god" but in a non-sentient "Way." Likewise, essentially pure Buddhist philosophy doesn't have a "god" per se, but rather speaks of the Void.
                                >
                                > The personal god concept is ridiculous. Just ridiculous.
                                >
                                > Leaf
                                >
                                > harrison ferrel wrote:
                                >
                                > When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.
                                >
                                > al_radzik wrote:
                                >
                                > David Osborn wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Al,
                                >
                                > That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                                >
                                >
                                > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.
                                >
                                >
                                > Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 
                                >
                                > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                                >
                                >
                                > I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                                > things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                                >
                                > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
                                > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                                >
                                > Alf
                                >
                                >
                                > May the Blessings Be,
                                > David
                                >
                                >
                                > al_radzik wrote:
                                >
                                > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
                                >
                                >
                                > harrison ferrel wrote:
                                >
                                > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
                                >
                                > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
                                >
                                > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
                                >
                              • harrisonferrel
                                If we do a little research (which is what we should have done before getting involved in eckankar) then we find that god was an invention. At one time there
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 13, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  If we do a little research (which is what we should have done before getting involved in eckankar) then we find that god was an invention. At one time there were gods, plural, then there was a god, singular. So at one point in time it was an invention. Now people think it's real for some reason. To frame a statement as if there is a god, personal or not, is to frame an illegitimate statement. Of course there are unknowns, but the idea of god is surely an invention of man.


                                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Leaf,
                                  >
                                  > How can you say that a personal god is ridiculous? Nobody but nobody knows the true essence of God. WE are all just bozos on the bus and there is no inside scoop. WE can all get well-read like Campbell and know intimately the tenets of different faiths all over the world but frankly, it's whatever works for YOU and YOU alone. I'm kind of surprised at your statement being that I've always respected your views.
                                  >
                                  > Alf
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > As per usual, I agree with you, Leaf. The problem is that people are quick to criticize how crazy eckankar, scientology or every other religion, but they won't look closely enough at their own beliefs. You have to be pretty bold to be objective.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thank you Harrison!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yes! The Taoists don't believe in "god" but in a non-sentient "Way." Likewise, essentially pure Buddhist philosophy doesn't have a "god" per se, but rather speaks of the Void.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The personal god concept is ridiculous. Just ridiculous.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Leaf
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > When we start talking about god, we go off on another completely unprovable, subjective, unsubstantiated tangent. The idea of a god is as nuts as eckankar, so it's just an exchange of ideologies. We either have to see that human beings have been behind these cults, religions and belief systems or not. There's no middle ground. People create deities and have done so since the beginning of human time. The belief in god is as absurd as the belief in anything that eckankar says.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, al_radzik <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, David Osborn <panfluteman2000@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Hello Al,
                                  > > > > > >      That may have been your experience and perception of things, and there may be a lot of truth in what you say.  Perhaps for many, perhaps for the vast majority of us, it may be  stroking their sense of entitlement, ego and its delusions of grandeur.  But throughout history, there have been genuine, magnificently reallized mystics and men of God who have succeeded in finding the Divine, and in gaining direct personal experience of God.  Their path may have not been an easy cakewalk of self entitlement, but through inner spiritual struggle and persistence, they did succeed.  To flat out say that it is impossible and nothing more than a big delusion would be too limiting, I feel, on the human Spirit, and on God ITself. 
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > This is very true but God can only be a personal and subjective experience. You can FEEL God exists but you cannot KNOW" God. Feelings are not facts. You may be a spark of the Divine but the WHOLE God will never be revealed in totality. This is true with EVERY religion. Mysticism bores me. In context with Eckankar, it is secretive and seductive. It has no value. On the other hand, prayer and meditation are valuable tools. PS: Why does Eckankar have SUNDAY WORSHIP? Who do they worship? IT sounds contradictory and why is it on Sunday? Sounds like a backpedal and a ruse to appear like a traditional Christain church to get followers.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >      Native ability in spirituality and mystical realization is, I feel, similar to msuical or any other kind of talent.  Many may have a bit of it, or even a moderate or modest amount, but only few possess magnificent, sublime gifts.  And those, if they are genuine, are not egotistical about it with a sense of self entitlement or self absorption, but truly seek to use their gift to help others along the spiritual path. 
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Yes. I feel my own gift of music is not from myself but through me. This is a manifestation of a higher power. Again, not inside knowledge of how God works through my talent. You just know you're tuned in. you can't see the DJ.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >      I'm sorry to burst your bubble of cynicism, but from my experience, this is what I perceive to be the reality.  Eckankar, especially in its outer, organizational aspect, may have a lot of failings, and it even may be an outright sham, which again fits in with my personal experience.  But that is not to say that all spirituality and mystical experience is also a sham.  Call me a Pollyana, or even a secret Eckmole, but I assure you, I am none of these 
                                  > > > > > > things.  Yet, neither am I a hardened cynic; personal experience has shown me that God and Spirit are real. 
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I may not know God but I am closer to knowing Eckankar and it doesn't take too much to realize it is a scam. I won't go into the endless proof that it is a plagiarised and well-crafted organization, but I seriously do not believe for a moment that Paul Twitchell and Harji really care(d) as much about your soul as much as the $30 membership fee in your wallet. Cynicism? It is from well-grounded reason and skepticism that I post.
                                  > > > > > One more question. Are you an active Eckist? Why do you sign off with "May the blessings be"? Just curious.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Alf
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > May the Blessings Be,
                                  > > > > > > David
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/8/10, al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > From: al_radzik <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckankar belongs in The Onion
                                  > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 10:10 AM
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I agree...and I love the Onion! In my short stint with Eckankar back in 1985, one of the many books I read was Tiger's Fang. I initially thought it was quite engaging and believed it was a true account of the other "planes". In hindsight, my Bullshit Meter went off and truly questioned WHY i was falling for this stuff. I wanted it MY way and that's not how God works. I wanted God to
                                  > > > > > > behave as I WANTED God to behave. I I I I. It was all a big ego trip. Eckankar tells you that you ARE (or can be) closer to God than any other human on Earth. I recall there being a slogan on an ECK book saying we can "Touch the hem of God". That is, to know God. We cannot know God. We are the created....God is the Creator. Eckankar keeps it's members by stroking their selfishness and sense of entitlement.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Eckankar is really such a joke that it deserves a featured headline in The Onion.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Being out of the cult for many years now, I find the beliefs, claims and writings of eckankar to be so silly that it's hard to imagine anybody takes any of it serious. Those of us who questioned this stuff while in the cult then eventually
                                  > > > > > > left because we never got satisfying answers, will be the first to admit that it all sounds like a the ravings of a committee of lunatics.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > To have a relative still in the cult never makes me stop scratching my head in wonder.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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