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Re: Inner Experiences and Spinoff Gurus

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Leaf, As far as impersonating, my experience with spiritual beings impersonating Eck Masters. My experience is that these beings will do almost anything to
    Message 1 of 41 , Apr 2, 2010
      Leaf,

      As far as impersonating, my experience with spiritual beings impersonating Eck Masters. My experience is that these beings will do almost anything to allow you to grow spiritually. And they don't care one bit one way or another about the games that get played on the physical plane, including the physical structure of Eckankar. And I am the one who decided to join Eckankar and participate in the fraud called Eckankar.

      A related question is "Why didn't my higher self warn me that Eckankar was a fraud?" My answer is "My higher self intentionally allowed "me" to be tricked because it knew I would be able to learn a lot of things."

      But I understand your reasoning.

      Regarding Phil Morimitsu. I read only one of his books and I didn't even realize that he had more than one book until you mentioned it. My time in Eckankar scanned 1979-2009, but I had my inner experiences in 1999. After my inner experiences, all the Eck books seemed boring.

      I just looked on Amazon.com, and they have 2 books by Phil:

      Book 1 of 2 - In The Company Of Eck Masters (1997)
      Product description "Personal proof through out-of-body experiences is the underlying message of this intriguing book."

      Book 2 of 2 - The Seeker (1999)
      Product description "Past-life memory as a monk in Tibet of the 1600s"

      I just went to Ecknakar.org, sorted the books by title and paged through to get to Phil's books. They list the same two books.

      For the first book the "org" says "A chela's intriguing inner experiences with spiritual Adepts."

      For the second book, the "org" says "An exciting novel based on the author's past life as a monk in seventeenth-century Tibet when he first became aware of the Light and Sound of God."

      So I must have read "In the Company of Eck masters." And I must have read it before 1999 when I had my experiences. The reason I say that is because if I read it after my own experiences I would have no doubt had all kind of "issues" with the book. Based on your interesting observations I wouldn't mind reading the book again just to see what I think of the book.

      But as far as the validity of the content of his books, nothing would surprise me. But he at least he admitted in one book that it was based on "impressions." It would be nice to interview him and ask him what he exactly he meant by that. But of course, he would have to check with Klemp first and find out what he was supposed to say. I get tired of trying to analyze members of Eckankar because I never know whether they are saying what THEY believe or if they are saying what they think Klemp thinks they should say.

      Jonathan



      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Jonathan,
      >
      > If legitimate masters were appearing to Morimitsu in the guise of eck masters, why would they fool Morimitsu into thinking they were validating a phony plagiarist? Wouldn't they have been careful not to bolster a fraud, and yet even more fraud by assisting Phil to write a book that further promotes an insult to truth? Wouldn't they have tried to gently lead Phil to a better understanding?
      >
      > Sorry, I don't buy the rationalization.
      >
      > Your theory is not new, and I even came up with such a rationalization once myself, years ago, as have several others on the net.
      >
      > But can you entertain the very plausible possibility that Morimitsu was stretching the truth, or was deceived? Or maybe completely freakin' nuts?
      >
      > If you read his stuff carefully, he admits in the preface to one of his books that his stories are all based on very subtle "impressions," and that Harold encouraged him to believe those impressions as literal truths. In other words, he was talked into lending more credibility to the stories than he initially believed. Doug Marman, incredible as it may seem, actually agreed with my assessment of Morimitsu's statement, in a discussion we were having on a.r.e.
      >
      > That said it all to me.
      >
      > Leaf
      >
      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Leaf,
      > >
      > > I seem to have made the mistake of thinking that your comments were somehow addressed to my message board. So I have changed the subject line.
      > >
      > > I don't think I have time to answer all of your questions. But I will say that my inner experiences which were with Eck masters, but also other beings, were NOTHING like what Eckankar taught me. In fact the few Eckists I told small portions of it to informed me that they weren't legitimate inner experiences. That is why I decide to not send a letter to Klemp asking him because I was cynical enough to believe that he would tell me the same thing. And after reading about the Graham Forsyth fiasco in Ford's book I was certain that I was right.
      > >
      > > I would like to mention one more thing about Ford's book. I felt that he should have mentioned Lane's name more often in the text of the book. I believe Ford referenced Lane often, but it was with a number which then had to be looked up at the rear of the book. The name "David Lane" should have appeared in the text more often. That created the impression that Ford actually did more of the research than he really did. But I am going to give Ford the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was an honest oversight on his part. It was a very long book, and you never get everything perfect. I saw Ford give one talk (outside Eckankar, but while he was a member) and I was nothing but impressed with him as an honest forthright person.
      > >
      > > I don't concern myself very much with spinoff masters. I left Eckankar, but I don't have the interest to study them. I spoke out a lot about Eckankar when I first left, but after awhile I realized that there was so much information already on the Internet that if somebody really wants it, they can find it.
      > >
      > > > To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of > the eck masters were real? How about his past life experiences with > eck masters? If eck masters and eckankar are fictional, how would
      > > > anyone have had such detailed, specific experiences with it?
      > >
      > > Good question, and I have thought it before. I'm not sure I have figured out the answer but I will give you two wild theories.
      > >
      > > I'm wondering if a group of religious followers strong belief creates these masters on the inner planes. But I don't mean that as simply an extension of their imagination. If people believe that there is a master named Rebazar on the inner with a certain appearance and personality, then spiritual energy on the inner planes actually forms a living being with those characteristics. But this is a real, living being, not a projection of their consciousness, or a split-off of their consciousness.
      > >
      > > Another possibility is that legitimate spiritual masters on the inner are simply taking on the appearance of Eck masters. Based on my experiences with them, that wouldn't surprise me, and would explain why so many people swear that the Rebazar Tarz they spoke to on the inner was truly a radiant being of tremendous spiritual energy and love. I have a hard time disbelieving people who report that to me that because I experienced it myself.
      > >
      > > Jonathan
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Jonathan,
      > > >
      > > > I will answer your reply point by point below:
      > > >
      > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Leaf,
      > > > >
      > > > > Many people claim to have inner experiences because many people do, including me.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Leaf answers: That's fine. I've had experiences too. I didn't say people don't have real experiences, only that far too many lack reliable criteria to adequately measure them and they lack the skill of critical thinking to know which are real, and which are not.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > My believe in inner experiences predated my involvement with Eckankar. I had read several books about Native American shamanism, and I immediately believed in the shamanic experiences in the books. These shamanic experiences are inner experiences. Shamanic journeying practiced by shamans is not a product or organized religion or gurus of any sort. Traditionally it was always taught from one teacher to one student. Often it includes inner experiences only with animal spirits. Inner shamanic experiences have been practiced by Native Americans probably for thousands of years before Eckankar even existed.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Leaf answers: That's fine. I had experiences before eckankar too, which I believe were probably far more authentic than many of those I experienced in eckankar.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > I didn't have any inner experiences while reading these Native American Shaman books. But I instantly accepted their validity because I have had many past lives where I practiced such things.
      > > > >
      > > > > Regarding Ford Johnson, his book went way way beyond David Lane's research. David Lane's research was a very good beginning, and I owe him a debt of gratitude for being the first person to speak out about Eckankar, but David was somewhat limited by the fact that he was never actually a member.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Leaf answers: I don't agree that Johnson's book went far beyond Lane. The bulk of the information is the same, with the exception of Johnson's own inclusion of his own religious views and analysis, which are different, of course, than Lane's. But as to purely the expose' of eckankar, Lane did the bulk of the work.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Also regarding Ford Johnson. From what I have seen of his organization I have no problem with it. I read a lot of the posts on his message board, and I didn't see anything that would cause me to cry "foul." People don't have to join if they don't want to. Also, I have seen zero evidence that Ford is doing anything to recruit new members.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > Leaf answers: Okay, but I didn't refer to recruitment or forced membership.
      > > >
      > > > Please reread my comments.
      > > >
      > > > I was referring to Johnson's lack of effort to foster in people a more refined degree of critical thinking skills to better assess not only teachers and teachings, but also to better assess authentic spiritual experiences. Instead he tried to funnel them into his own group.
      > > >
      > > > I do give him a lot of credit for waking people up from eckankar, but he tried to move them into his own group, rather than supporting the process of awakening from delusion.
      > > >
      > > > ***Um, did you catch what I just wrote? As in, "I give him a lot of credit..."?
      > > >
      > > > Eckankar created a culture that encourages people to believe any dream, inner vision, or impression as purely factual, so long as the experience reinforces belief in eckankar and its masters. People who leave would be better off learning to better weigh these experiences, rather than to move from one delusion to possibly another.
      > > >
      > > > To give an example, do you believe Phil Morimitsu's experiences of the eck masters were real? How about his past life experiences with eck masters? If eck masters and eckankar are fictional, how would anyone have had such detailed, specific experiences with it?
      > > >
      > > > What about the various rip-offs of eckankar, such as Mulvin, Turner, and the others? Do you think they are authentic masters, or are they deluded or unscrupulous?
      > > >
      > > > Is everything you learned in eckankar truth, with exception of its fictional masters? Just what have you learned from the experience of leaving eckankar?
      > > >
      > > > I would be interested in your answer to these questions.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > I don't know why you seem to be bent on keeping people away from any religious experience. It's their choice if they want to do it. You criticize people for being megalomaniacs, but you seem to act like somebody appointed you criticize everyone's religious experience that doesn't agree with your preferred view of the world.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Leaf answers: This is way out of line with what I actually stated. I am not at all trying to keep people away from VALID spiritual experiences, although I suspected you might erroneously draw this conclusion. It's a strawman argument that I never made.
      > > >
      > > > I am suggesting that people try to have a more refined sense of how to determine if an experience is authentic or not, and to have a less rigid, automatic, knee-jerk acceptance of nearly anything that enters their minds.
      > > >
      > > > Real experiences are a gift. I believe, based on years of observation of eckists, that too many experiences are accepted as gospel, when in fact they are not even real in many cases.
      > > >
      > > > Eckankar teaches people to accept almost any dream or slightest nuance of an experience as true and real, so long as it tends to support eckankar. This is a ridiculous and entrapping approach, and not a very astute way to approach authentic spirituality.
      > > >
      > > > And it cheapens true experiences.
      > > >
      > > > Yet former eckists sometimes continue with the absurd approach even after they leave.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > My message board "58 Past Lives" gives my experiences. I never once claimed that everyone should believe it. Why don't you give others the right to make up their own minds instead of acting like you "know better"
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > > Leaf answers: Don't I have the same right to express my opinion as you do? I didn't actually state that your experiences aren't valid, only that people should be more discerning about these issues than we were taught in eckankar.
      > > >
      > > > Have you noticed I often end my posts with,
      > > >
      > > > "SPEAKING FOR MYSELF ONLY"??
      > > >
      > > > Indeed, I am speaking for myself only.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Jonathan
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Jonathan,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > For me and many others, the basic lesson from the ecknakr experience is that anyone can claim to have inner experiences, or even to have god realization, but mere claims are no guarantee the experiences are real. And there is considerable evidence, if you take a look a history, that this is nothing new and is rampant in the annals of religion and spiritual groups.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Basically, claiming to be the lord of the universe or to have various abilities such as capability of past life readings, spiritual healing, and other marketable items is a wide open door that literally anyone can walk through. If people can get mesmerized by a short white male with a southern drawl from Kentucky who had a habit of plagiary, they can become mesmerized by nearly anyone.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I've personally known several acquaintances who have succumbed to the delusion that they are Lords of the Universe.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The first was Twitchell. I was sixteen, and the buildup to seeing him at a small gathering included hearing and reading all sorts of worshipful anecdotes about his extraordinary abilities. By the time I saw him walking into the room, I was sure I was seeing the highest master on the planet. In spirituality, the placebo effect is alive and well. People can self-induce amazing effects, all due to intense, passionate belief. People can experience healings, altered states of consciousness, and various otherworldly visions all due to their own powerful beliefs centered around a self-appointed run-of-the-mill new age guru, which really have nothing to do with the celebrated personality they are following and worshiping.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I also was acquainted with Jerry Mulvin and Arnold Chalfant, who left eckankar and started their own paths. Jerry Mulvin sported a black goatee, and had a guru-like appearance, and he did conduct a mesmerizing, kick-ass soul travel workshop at the Los Angeles Eck Center on a weekly basis, which people traveled long distances from all over So. California to attend. People thought he might become an Eck Master, so compelling and impressive was he to us all. And yet, he was arrested for viewing child pornography years later, and had a history of a taste for young girls or women who were barely of legal age. He wasn't the real thing.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > And then there was Michael Turner, who, if you actually personally knew of his character, as I did, you would laugh out loud that he now claims to be a Master in the Darwin Gross lineage. Michael Turner lived in my area in Tucson.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > By the way, Ford Johnson, in my view, is just another high initiate who broke off from eckankar and started his own organization, with the far more clever approach of using David Lane's research to debunk eckankar's false claims of its history and origins, only to set up his own group in its place. Rather than fostering a sorely needed sense of critical thinking in his "students," he instead stuck with the same old approach of failure to question any and all "experiences" that happen to flit through a person's waking consciousness.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > People who imagine they are high masters are either unscrupulous charlatans, sociopathic megalomaniacs, or a combination of both, in the vast majority of cases.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In my view, dubious, concocted spiritual claims by not only megalomaniac self appointed masters, but also by cadres of "high initiates" and followers, are common place and rampant. The entire spiritual field is filled to the brim with well meaning but deluded people who seem to desperately need to believe that THEIR experiences are the real McCoy.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The emphasis on "inner experiences" (rather than on just good, balanced, healthy living and leading a simple, peaceful existence in harmony with your universe or environment or fellow homosapiens) leads to putting less importance on what really matters, and these humbler, less dazzling approaches of real value are lost in the mix of over-focusing on the more titillating aspects of spiritual exploration.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > In the spiritual field, there are countless people who use little if any criteria to determine if their dreams or visions, impressions, and other phenomenon are real or not. They often readily accept any author, any cool-looking teacher, as real and authentic.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > If those who leave eckankar go right back to believing anything someone says, just because they like the message, then they have learned nothing at all from the eckankar experience.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Speaking for me only,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Leaf
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Leaf,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > It's OK that you expressed your opinion, and I wasn't offended. I know about the variety of individuals who have left Eckankar and who are now posting on this message board. They have vastly different beliefs and therefore vastly different opinions. I'm not asking people to agree with me.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I didn't really even want to link to my message board here, but the subject kinda came up, and I know that getting into a detailed discussion about past lives here would be unwelcome by a lot of the members of this board.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Ditto with inner experiences with "masters." But Ford Johnson initially planned to publish Graham Forsyth's diary/journal as a separate book, and many former Eckists have since commented on the Internet that they were disappointed, so I assume there is some interest in the subject. Therefore, I made the link.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Jonathan
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Hmmm. Phil Morimitsu claims to remember all of his past lives, and if we were to believe many of those lives, as reported in his writings, we would have to accept them as confirmation that the eck masters are real, thus serving to validate eckankar. If a person has past life recall with eck masters, something is very, very wrong with that persons ability to tell the difference between a real experience and imagination.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Naturally, since we know eckankar is based on fictional masters and a fictional history, and therefore didn't exist in Morimitsu's past lives, we know that Morimitsu's recollections are a figment of his vivid imagination.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > So... a little critical thinking can go a long way in these matters. I'm not saying you didn't have these experiences, but I would advise ex-eckists to apply at least a small degree of skepticism toward anyone, no matter how well meaning, when they make claims that so often turn out to be less than reliable. That's the big lesson taken away from having been in eckankar.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I've read all the books you're referencing, and they did help with my transition away from eckankar years ago, but I would not take everything those writers claim as gospel, anymore than I would take the claims of Twitchell or Klemp as gospel. In fact, there is one flaw in one of the books you mention that makes me question the reliability of the statements.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > This is an ex-eckankar forum, and many of us feel as if we were scammed, so it is natural for a lot of us to be more skeptical and to use a more refined degree of assessing the reliability of such claims. If we didn't do this, we would not have learned anything from our experience in eckankar.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I'm really trying not to offend you, but I think this needs to be said, considering the nature of this forum.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Speaking for myself only,
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Leaf
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Thomas,
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
      > > > > > > > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group, but I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review, and finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
      > > > > > > > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a special, very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life regression"
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can join, and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can join. I have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message boards the way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to approve your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
      > > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/58PastLIves/
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I had to think up something.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Jonathan
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Jonathan,
      > > > > > > > > > It sounds like we are both on the same path. I have read the books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss. I am even thinking of taking the training to become a hypnotherapist.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression sessions. Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are also part of your Soul Group? Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review, and finding out your Incarnation Plan.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to go through a PLR. I am especially interested in finding out what life agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your past lives. If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your first incarnation would be 5,000 years ago. However, I am sure it was much earlier than that.
      > > > > > > > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be appreciated
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Thomas.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
      > > > > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Thomas Lee,
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express them on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs. I believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still believe in it now after leaving.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was a member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are associated with us are not.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently teaches.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of past life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't match those of Paul Twitchell's.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael Newton's books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his books were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave and adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare mention that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned while a member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists or on the inner planes. So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling like a Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not being to talk about them openly.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Jonathan
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile. I do not feel it was a waste of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
      > > > > > > > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's lifetime
      > > > > > > > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of unfoldment
      > > > > > > > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve all of your karmic issues. The individual must do it for himself. Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master? We were told to destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his works were gone. This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control. Everyone loved Paul's books. Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great storyteller.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog. The moderator felt it was spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of Eckankar teachings. Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone had or researched: Past Life Regression, Life Between Life, or Future Life Progression?
      > > > > > > > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
      > > > > > > > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
      > > > > > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
      > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
      > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Hi zoey,
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds! Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a better direction.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes, and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism, some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between us.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't touched, and not always in the best of ways.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It was exploitation.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully, especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Peace,
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Leaf
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years. These posts typically come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those years away? If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better? Do you think you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were an eckist?
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar. And I am not being a smart-ass here. I am sincerely and genuinely curious.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as well. I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many years.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, zoey
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • jonathanjohns96
      Thomas, Thanks for the link. I may take a look. By the way, I approved your membership over at 58PastLives. You can ask as many questions as you want over
      Message 41 of 41 , Apr 3, 2010
        Thomas,

        Thanks for the link. I may take a look.

        By the way, I approved your membership over at 58PastLives. You can ask as many questions as you want over there. I will answer them. The message board may be set up so that I have to approve your posts, we'll see. These message boards can be tricky to set up correctly. I set things up, and then I'm not even sure how I did it. For now, I will try very hard to check the "58" mb several times a day.

        Thanks again for your interest.

        Alan

        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@...> wrote:
        >
        > You can watch "Chances Are" on Youtube at this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4kevcHRRHU
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: thomas lee <thomaslee40@...>
        > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:51:22 PM
        > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: My new "58 Past Lives" message board
        >
        >
        > Jonathan,
        > In your PLR, you stated that your husband and daughter in your previous life had incarnated with you as Les and Melissa in your present life. I realize that it would be awkward to discuss past lives with someone who does not believe in it. I presume that you had not mentioned this to Melissa. However, since you and Les were childhood friends, did you talk to him about your PLR?
        >
        > Your relationship with Melissa is similar to what happened in the movie Chances Are. Mary Stuart Masterson plays the role of Miranda whose father died in a accident. Robert Downey Jr plays the role of Alex who is a young college graduate. He meets Miranda while working in a library. Later, he meets her again when he comes to Wash DC to look for a job. By chance, he ends up in the home of Miranda and her mom. He begins to fall in love with Miranda, but before the relationship can develop, he begins to have flashbacks that he was her father in his previous life. If you have not already seen this movie, I think you will enjoy it.
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
        > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 8:12:15 AM
        > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: My new "58 Past Lives" message board
        >
        >
        > Thomas,
        >
        > > >Did you find that by experiencing these traumatic events in your past lives that you were able to resolve karmic issues and even experience a healing?
        >
        > Yes, I definitely did. There was a certain amount of healing during the regression itself, but to be honest, most of the healing came later. To some degree I feel that past life regressions most;y just stir up a lot of things, make you aware of a past life that needs to be addressed, but then the individual has to find some other way of healing it later. I guess you could just continue to do more past life regressions, but that gets very expensive.
        >
        > > >After having so many PLRs, did Janet Cunningham recommend that you go ahead and have a Life Between Lives experience?
        >
        > I never heard of Life Between Lives when I was going to Janet in 1999-2000. Maybe it was available, but I don't know. I don't think either of the other two regressionists recommended it. I considered it, but never seemed to actually set a priority to do it.
        >
        > I read Janet's book "A Tribe Returned" which is about a past life she had where she was a daughter of a plains Indian chief. Janet came to know a lot of people who were living in that past life with her. The book describes in graphic detail how the U. S soldiers killed the Indians, and its very traumatic to read. I think there are many people who would not be able to get through it. I bought the book directly from Janet.
        >
        > I also read Janet's book about soul mates. I just tried to go to Janet's web page. Somebody listed it as a malicious site, so it looks like the "do-gooders" are out blocking New Age websites. The warning did say that third parties can add malicious code so maybe that's what happened.
        >
        > As a regressionist, I give Janet a 100% positive rating. But she is rather famous, so she does charge more.
        >
        > Feel free to ask more questions. Maybe it would be best if you joined my message board, but until then I will probably cross-post these over there. And thanks for reading my first posts; it was a lot of reading. Your interest will encourage me to post more.
        >
        > Jonathan
        >
        > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Jonathan,
        > > I just got back home and read: Diary of Alan - Jan 2-20, 1999
        > > and List of 58 Past lives
        > > I have at least a dozen questions to ask you about all of this. Thanks for sharing these intimate details of your past lives with everyone in this group.
        > >
        > > >Did you find that by experiencing these traumatic events in your past lives that you were able to resolve karmic issues and even experience a healing?
        > > >After having so many PLRs, did Janet Cunningham recommend that you go ahead and have a Life Between Lives experience? Having a life review with the Council and knowing your Incarnation Plan would seem to be the final step. I read where these experiences would be blocked if your spirit guide feels that you are not ready to have this experience.
        > >
        > > I read a preview of Janet Cunningham's book where a group of individual souls incarnated at the same time. Have you read it? It is not in the book stores. I may have to order it online.
        > >
        > > Michael Newton has written 4 books. His other two books are:
        > > >Life Between Lives: Hypnotherapy for Spiritual Regression
        > > >Memories of the Afterlife
        > > There are excerpts of these books on Google Books
        > > I especially liked Memories of the Afterlife because it contained stories of PLRs from numerous hypnotherapists who are associated with his institute.
        > >
        > > If you don't mind, I will be asking you more questions about your PLRs.
        > > Thanks
        > > Thomas
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
        > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Sent: Wed, March 31, 2010 2:15:25 PM
        > > Subject: [eckankartruth] My new "58 Past Lives" message board
        > >
        > >
        > > Thomas,
        > >
        > > Thank you for your post. It meant a lot to me.
        > >
        > > I read both of Michael's books, but not Brian's book.
        > >
        > > From Thomas' post "Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are also part of your Soul Group?"
        > > Jonathan "I don't have any specific information about my Soul Group, but I believe that it exists. I never had the Life Between Life regression."
        > >
        > > From Thomas' post "Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review, and finding out your Incarnation Plan?"
        > > Jonathan "I never had the Life Between Life regression. It's a special, very long past life regression. It is not a standard past life regression"
        > >
        > > Jonathan: But I did have a lot of interesting inner experiences. And I did have ten past life regressions. Your math for how far back my past lives go won't add up for me because I live more than one lifetime at a time.
        > >
        > > Back in January I started my own Yahoo Group (message board). The project got tabled, but I just started it up again. I have three posts there including a simple list of my 58 past lives (give or take a few). Also, the last file that I uploaded has a transcription of my entire first past life regression. The PDF I have is much better then the format of the post there, but I am still looking for a good PDF creator.
        > >
        > > As far as I can determine, the message board is set up so you can join, and you are welcome to join. And anyone who is a member of ET or ESA can join. I have discovered that figuring out how to set up these Yahoo message boards the way you want them can be a very challenging task. I probably have to approve your membership, and for now I may even have to approve your posts.
        > >
        > > My message board called "58 Past Lives"
        > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/58PastLIve s/
        > >
        > > I don't really like the name I thought up for the message board, but I had to think up something.
        > >
        > > Jonathan
        > >
        > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Jonathan,
        > > > It sounds like we are both on the same path. I have read the books of Michael Newton and Brian Weiss. I am even thinking of taking the training to become a hypnotherapist.
        > > >
        > > > I am very interested in hearing about your past life regression sessions. Were you able to determine if some persons in your present life are also part of your Soul Group? Also, anything else such as meeting with your spiritual guide, meeting with the Council of Elders for a life review, and finding out your Incarnation Plan.
        > > >
        > > > An answer to any one of these questions would be worth the effort to go through a PLR. I am especially interested in finding out what life agreements I had made with others before my present incarnation, AND what my incarnation plan is for my present incarnation.
        > > >
        > > > It is very interesting that you are familiar with over 50 of your past lives. If the average time between incarnations were 100 years, your first incarnation would be 5,000 years ago. However, I am sure it was much earlier than that.
        > > > Any info you can provide me about your PLR sessions would be appreciated
        > > >
        > > > Thomas.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogrou p s.com>
        > > >
        > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
        > > > Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 3:15:09 AM
        > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Thomas Lee,
        > > >
        > > > I like a lot of your opinions and I support your right to express them on this message board. I left Eckankar, but I retained a lot of my beliefs. I believed in karma and reincarnation long before I joined Eckankar. I still believe in it now after leaving.
        > > >
        > > > I benefited greatly in terms of my spiritual enfoldment while I was a member of Eckankar. Ford Johnson said the same thing in his book, spending an ENTIRE CHAPTER discussing it, so I am not alone in this opinion.
        > > >
        > > > I do believe that each of us has spirit guides who may or not be Eck masters or related to Eckankar in any way. However, I do believe they may take on the persona of Eck masters if that is what we are comfortable with at the time. These spirit guides have always been with us and are beyond Eckankar in the sense that Eckankar is a temporary thing, whereas the spirit guides that are associated with us are not.
        > > >
        > > > Don't pay any attention to people who say that you can't talk about something just because it happens to be similar to something Eckanakar currently teaches.
        > > >
        > > > I have experience in Past Life Regression. I have had a number of past life regressions. I a familiar with over 50 of my past lives. I have had extensive experiences with inner guides. I basically did everything Eckankar teaches, but most members of Eckankar never actually do. Furthermore, once any chela does do them, Klemp says "It was the Kal" if the chela's experiences don't match those of Paul Twitchell's.
        > > >
        > > > Based on your post, you have read at least one of Dr. Michael Newton's books. He is far beyond anything Eckankar knows. Strangely enough, his books were recommended to me by an Eckist. So there are Eckists who are brave and adventuresome, reading books like Michael Newtons. But they don't dare mention that to very many Eckists. Most of the really valuable things I learned while a member of Eckankar were learned "behind closed doors" with other Eckists or on the inner planes. So as a member of Eckankar I got real tired of feeling like a Jew living in Nazi Germany, learning things from other Eckists, but not being to talk about them openly.
        > > >
        > > > Your post definitely resonates with me so keep talking.
        > > >
        > > > Jonathan
        > > >
        > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@ ...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I was also in Eckankar for awhile. I do not feel it was a waste of time, but rather just another step in my spiritual unfoldment.
        > > > >
        > > > > These are my conclusions for an individual seeking a spiritual path:
        > > > >
        > > > > >Every teaching contains some spiritual truth.
        > > > > >No one teaching would contain all of the spiritual truths necessary for complete spiritual unfoldment of the individual during the individual's lifetime
        > > > > >As the individual unfolds spiritually, the individual would need to seek out the spiritual truths to assist in the individual's next level of unfoldment
        > > > > >While a master or guru is helpful, they are not necessary to resolve all of your karmic issues. The individual must do it for himself. Each of us has at least one spirit guide to assist us.
        > > > >
        > > > > Remember when Darwin was removed as an Eck Master? We were told to destroy all of his books and recordings because the spiritual energy in his works were gone. This is similar to a new dictator who destroys the works and persona of his predecessor in order to maintain control. Everyone loved Paul's books. Not only did they contain spiritual truths, but he was a great storyteller.
        > > > >
        > > > > A friend of mine who is an Eckist was asking questions about reincarnation and channeling on an Eck blog. The moderator felt it was spiritual heresy because some of the facts mentioned was outside the realm of Eckankar teachings. Every spiritual teaching, including Eckankar, will promise the individual salvation if they will just join and believe in their teaching. They are very defensive if facts are presented which will weaken their teaching.
        > > > >
        > > > > Has anyone had or researched: Past Life Regression, Life Between Life, or Future Life Progression?
        > > > > These appear to be the quickest way to resolve all issues about your past lives and what is your Incarnation Plan.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
        > > > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@ >
        > > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
        > > > > Sent: Sat, March 27, 2010 1:38:50 PM
        > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Life
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi zoey,
        > > > >
        > > > > I don't know if you're still around reading on this site, but I decided to reply to your question. I was in eckankar for 28 years, met Twitchell, was a sixth initiate, etc. I became a member when I was barely sixteen, after finding an eck book at age 14.
        > > > >
        > > > > I often do feel as if much of my life was wasted in eckankar. I especially feel as if I missed the experience of what could have been the precious, exciting years of my teens and early twenties. While other kids were going out with friends and having fun, I was going to eck meetings and setting up lectures all over my area in San Gabriel Valley in California. I gave my first eck talk to a large crowd at a college when I was 17 (I blew their minds! Seriously!), and set up countless eck talks starting at age 16.
        > > > >
        > > > > Yep, I was into the nonsense up to my ears. I even put off school and college to spread eckankar, and none of the leaders tried to steer me in a better direction.
        > > > >
        > > > > In the heights of the sixties and early seventies, when Jimi Hendrix was rocking the world, I cut my long hair, adopted the nerdy eckankar clothes, and did nothing with my life other than spread eckankar. My former teenage friends would look at what I had become and shake their heads. Even my parents were bewildered, thinking I should be hanging out with my cool friends instead of going to eck events. But I impressed the local eck leaders with my activism, some of whom are iconic eckcnakr (I like this spelling) figures like Patti Simpson, but my real life was put on hold for a long, long time.
        > > > >
        > > > > School, relationships, careers, and other areas of normal personal development were ignored and neglected. I had a lot of catching up to do when I left eckankar. I'm still catching up.
        > > > >
        > > > > My entire life was shaped by eckankar. For example, almost all of my relationships were based on eckankar. When I left, my friends seemed to have nothing in common with me, since eckankar was no longer the common link between us.
        > > > >
        > > > > There is almost nothing in my life that my time in eckankar hasn't touched, and not always in the best of ways.
        > > > >
        > > > > The reasons this happens to people comes from the hyperbolic teachings about the momentous occasion of a Mahanta resurgent in the world to bring souls back to god. It seems so overwhelmingly important to young, naive, inexperienced youth that it takes over their lives, seemingly filling every need and space. It was exploitation.
        > > > >
        > > > > Well, I could go on and on, but you get the idea. Eckankar is one of several cults that were around at the time when I was young. It's possible that if I hadn't joined eckankar, I would have joined another similar group, like TM or Scientology, both of which I was familiar with. But either way, it's good to get the word out how any of these groups should be approached carefully, especially by kids. They can seriously screw up your life.
        > > > >
        > > > > I hope all is well with you, Zoey.
        > > > >
        > > > > Peace,
        > > > >
        > > > > Leaf
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Zoey" <zzoey75@ > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Sharon, I've read a number of posters here who indicate that they feel that their years in eckankar were 'lost' years. These posts typically come from people who were long-term eckists, 20+ years.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > And I want to ask if you feel this way - that you simply threw those years away? If you had never found eckankar, do you think you would have taken up with a different path or group, perhaps something better? Do you think you would have made different life decisions than the ones you made while you were an eckist?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I am NOT pro-eckankar. And I am not being a smart-ass here. I am sincerely and genuinely curious.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I would be interested in hearing anyone else's opinion on this, as well. I am mainly talking to people who were in eckankar for a great many years.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thanks, zoey
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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