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I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat.

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  • harrisonferrel
    When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 1, 2010
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      When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.

      So what do you do with this kind of thing?

      Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.

      When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.

      I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.

      Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.

      Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).

      Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.

      I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.

      Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
    • jonathanjohns96
      Harrison, I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that You are a master
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 1, 2010
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        Harrison,

        I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to read his book.

        So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.

        From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.

        Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said they should be.

        I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!

        So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.

        I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know it, they are leaving Eckankar.

        Jonathan



        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
        >
        > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
        >
        > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
        >
        > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.
        >
        > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.
        >
        > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
        >
        > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
        >
        > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
        >
        > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.
        >
        > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
        >
      • harrisonferrel
        First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don t know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 3, 2010
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          First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same nonsense that is already well known to eckankar — assumptions and rationalization.

          We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar in your dream is just a cigar."

          I am not a master of anything or anything close to a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has little meaning in the West.

          My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your claims.

          I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.

          From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.

          Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work the lunacy pedals.

          The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.

          Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.




          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Harrison,
          >
          > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to read his book.
          >
          > So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
          >
          > From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
          >
          > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said they should be.
          >
          > I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
          >
          > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.
          >
          > I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know it, they are leaving Eckankar.
          >
          > Jonathan
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
          > >
          > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
          > >
          > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
          > >
          > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
          > >
          > > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.
          > >
          > > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.
          > >
          > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
          > >
          > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
          > >
          > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
          > >
          > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.
          > >
          > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
          > >
          >
        • ctecvie
          Hi harrisonferrel & all, Excellent post! See my comments below :) Ingrid
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 4, 2010
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            Hi harrisonferrel & all,
            Excellent post! See my comments below :)
            Ingrid

            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same nonsense that is already well known to eckankar — assumptions and rationalization.

            ***I can only agree. Basically, even most ekkies are nice guys, but their approach to life is very complicated and uniform. Of course they don't know it, but that's exactly what eckankar teaches them. In my view, the most important thing when leaving eckankar is to leave these structures of thinking and belief behind, and also the ekkie uniform behaviour. This takes much longer of course. As I said in another post, the most important lesson I drew from my experience in eckankar is to not fall into another trap of believing anything. Life is so varied and full of surprises and wonders that I don't need any "spiritual" explanations any more.
            >
            > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar in your dream is just a cigar."

            *** Yeah, good old Freud is right!! LOL
            >
            > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has little meaning in the West.

            *** I think this expression has been worn out by all those "spiritual paths". The same for "soul", at least for me!
            >
            > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your claims.
            >
            > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.

            *** Ford Johnson was important to me as the book helped me get out of eckankar - but that was it. Basically, he set up another path similar to eckankar, which means he didn't really leave the structures I spoke of earlier behind. I've heard that Johnson knew very well that little harry wouldn't believe Graham Forsyth's story (which, by the way, took place in the belief structure of eckankar!) but that he used it for his own benefit. Well, what really happened is certainly more complex, but I tend to believe that this was one fact that made Ford do it. So he could expose eckankar for what it is (based entirely on Lane's findings!) and at the same time set up his own path.
            >
            > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.

            *** That's typical ekkie behaviour which we need to get rid of.
            >
            > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work the lunacy pedals.

            *** Yes, I think so too. James Davis, the guy who wrote "The Rosetta Stone of God" and who left eckankar afterwards, said in one of his posts to Ford's message board that he wrote it to overcome his doubts about eckankar. He thought that once he had written it, he would be able to stay firmly in eckankar. Well, this was not so. He also said that when he was into Christian beliefs, Jesus or other Christian saints appeared him, and while he was in eckankar, he met eck masters.
            >
            > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.

            *** Critical thinking gets lost in eckankar, and for me that was the first and foremost thing to get back, together with my (bad) emotions to be whole again!
            >
            > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.

            *** It does, and it's dangerous because at first sight, it seems so harmless and "loving".
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Harrison,
            > >
            > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to read his book.
            > >
            > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
            > >
            > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
            > >
            > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said they should be.
            > >
            > > I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
            > >
            > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.
            > >
            > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know it, they are leaving Eckankar.
            > >
            > > Jonathan
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
            > > >
            > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
            > > >
            > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
            > > >
            > > > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.
            > > >
            > > > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.
            > > >
            > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
            > > >
            > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
            > > >
            > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
            > > >
            > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.
            > > >
            > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • jonathanjohns96
            Harrison, You are your own master simply means that YOU are in charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody else is, and it
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 4, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Harrison,

              "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.

              You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already told you,
              when you realize that you are your own master you're not supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand why you have major problems with it.

              I know you don't care, but for others reading my response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your question anyway." That's what I am talking about.

              Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical.

              But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test" because they have let their ego get the best of them.

              The people who realize that they are their own master (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at things.

              Jonathan


              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and rationalization.
              >
              > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
              >
              > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has little meaning in the West.
              >
              > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your claims.
              >
              > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
              >
              > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
              >
              > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
              >
              > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
              >
              > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Harrison,
              > >
              > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to read his book.
              > >
              > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
              > >
              > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
              > >
              > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said they should be.
              > >
              > > I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
              > >
              > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.
              > >
              > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know it, they are leaving Eckankar.
              > >
              > > Jonathan
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
              > > >
              > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
              > > >
              > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
              > > >
              > > > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.
              > > >
              > > > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.
              > > >
              > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
              > > >
              > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
              > > >
              > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
              > > >
              > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.
              > > >
              > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • tomleafeater
              Jonathan, In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that Paul Twitchell tried to tone down all of that, and that you think of Klemp as the
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 4, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Jonathan,

                In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about Twitchell?

                Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and omniscient, capable of anything.

                Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.

                But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:

                "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.

                Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "

                Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell


                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Harrison,
                >
                > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                >
                > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already told you,
                > when you realize that you are your own master you're not supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand why you have major problems with it.
                >
                > I know you don't care, but for others reading my response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                >
                > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical.
                >
                > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test" because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                >
                > The people who realize that they are their own master (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at things.
                >
                > Jonathan
                >
                >
                > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                > >
                > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and rationalization.
                > >
                > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                > >
                > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has little meaning in the West.
                > >
                > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your claims.
                > >
                > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                > >
                > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                > >
                > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                > >
                > > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                > >
                > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Harrison,
                > > >
                > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to read his book.
                > > >
                > > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                > > >
                > > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                > > >
                > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said they should be.
                > > >
                > > > I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                > > >
                > > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.
                > > >
                > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                > > >
                > > > Jonathan
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                > > > >
                > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                > > > >
                > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                > > > >
                > > > > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.
                > > > >
                > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.
                > > > >
                > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                > > > >
                > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                > > > >
                > > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                > > > >
                > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.
                > > > >
                > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • tomleafeater
                Jonathan, In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that Paul Twitchell tried to tone down all of that, and that you think of Klemp as the
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 4, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Jonathan,

                  In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about Twitchell?

                  Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and omniscient, capable of anything.

                  Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.

                  But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:

                  "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.

                  Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "

                  Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell


                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Harrison,
                  >
                  > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                  >
                  > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already told you,
                  > when you realize that you are your own master you're not supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand why you have major problems with it.
                  >
                  > I know you don't care, but for others reading my response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                  >
                  > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical.
                  >
                  > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test" because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                  >
                  > The people who realize that they are their own master (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at things.
                  >
                  > Jonathan
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and rationalization.
                  > >
                  > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                  > >
                  > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has little meaning in the West.
                  > >
                  > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your claims.
                  > >
                  > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                  > >
                  > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                  > >
                  > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                  > >
                  > > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                  > >
                  > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Harrison,
                  > > >
                  > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to read his book.
                  > > >
                  > > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                  > > >
                  > > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                  > > >
                  > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said they should be.
                  > > >
                  > > > I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                  > > >
                  > > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.
                  > > >
                  > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                  > > >
                  > > > Jonathan
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • jonathanjohns96
                  Leaf, I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn t want to see
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 6, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Leaf,

                    I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the impression that I got.

                    If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have already posted this.

                    As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our own master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.

                    Jonathan



                    --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jonathan,
                    >
                    > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about Twitchell?
                    >
                    > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and omniscient, capable of anything.
                    >
                    > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                    >
                    > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                    >
                    > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                    >
                    > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "
                    >
                    > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Harrison,
                    > >
                    > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                    > >
                    > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already told you,
                    > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand why you have major problems with it.
                    > >
                    > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                    > >
                    > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical.
                    > >
                    > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test" because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                    > >
                    > > The people who realize that they are their own master (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at things.
                    > >
                    > > Jonathan
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and rationalization.
                    > > >
                    > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                    > > >
                    > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has little meaning in the West.
                    > > >
                    > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your claims.
                    > > >
                    > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                    > > >
                    > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                    > > >
                    > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                    > > >
                    > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                    > > >
                    > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Harrison,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to read his book.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said they should be.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Jonathan
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    It s an interesting subject. And I ve often contemplated how this idea of The Master first evolved over history. Especially on the Indian continent. There
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 6, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      It's an interesting subject. And I've often contemplated
                      how this idea of "The Master" first evolved over history.
                      Especially on the Indian continent. There were gurus
                      and masters in India for centuries, but the idea of one
                      "Living Master" above all the others sounds more in the
                      line of "Western" dogma (and it's root religions) to me.

                      Like Judaism has the Messiah. Christianity has Christ
                      Islam has Mohammad and Sufism the Qutub.

                      Even though literature about Living Masters appeared
                      in Julian Johnson's 1939 book, I don't know there was
                      specified "THE" Living Master. I think emphasis was
                      on finding "A" Living Master. Perhaps I'm wrong about
                      this.

                      At any rate, I am not sure that it's an Indian belief the
                      idea of "Mahanta" being something like a "Messiah",
                      a "Son of God" or the greatest prophet above others.
                      Instead, I've heard that Indian children are taught from
                      birth that "everybody is God". Singling out one person
                      sounds to me like infiltration of "Western" religion and
                      dogma.

                      I haven't researched the topic sufficiently (to date) in
                      order to conclude where the "idea" of THE MASTER
                      (one above all others) came from and how it entered
                      into Hindu religion. Maybe it is not Hindu, but closer
                      to Sikh, Islamic, Christian or Judaic dogma generally.

                      All of the latter religions made inroads on the Indian
                      continent throughout history, I believe. Islam, Christ-
                      ianity and Sikhism especially. I'm not sure about any
                      Jewish influence though.

                      I can look into this over the next few weeks because
                      I know people familiar with Hindu religion in general.
                      See if I can determine if a "THE MASTER" paradigm
                      existed in ancient Indian religion.

                      Etznab

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                      To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, Apr 6, 2010 7:00 am
                      Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                      Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                       
                      Leaf,

                      I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that people
                      should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't want
                      to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                      impression that I got.

                      If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                      because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                      know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                      was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                      already posted this.

                      As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of Eckankar I
                      obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even concern myself
                      with the question. I believe that each of us is our own master, meaning
                      we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody else is.
                      When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting like they can
                      advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is when I have
                      a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs could have
                      simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking care of
                      your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves as their
                      own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think any of the
                      LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers. It's all a
                      moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned with my own
                      spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.

                      Jonathan

                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                      <tianyue@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Jonathan,
                      >
                      > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that
                      Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of
                      "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to
                      say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption
                      is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about
                      Twitchell?
                      >
                      > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the
                      worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's
                      eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was
                      highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall
                      posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                      practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                      line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                      shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                      gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                      shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                      omniscient, capable of anything.
                      >
                      > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                      enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                      masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                      >
                      > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt.
                      Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                      >
                      > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles,
                      beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
                      those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must
                      overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also
                      taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major
                      disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of
                      His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only
                      does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on
                      earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other
                      planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
                      psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of
                      god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times
                      and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the
                      Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart,
                      and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                      >
                      > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior,
                      but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and
                      the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is
                      not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual
                      body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body
                      of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and
                      because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which
                      flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is
                      the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative
                      function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man,
                      creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His
                      physical body is the only representation of the channel through which
                      the ECK flows. "
                      >
                      > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                      <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Harrison,
                      > >
                      > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge
                      of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody
                      else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone
                      else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are
                      the one to do it. That's all it means.
                      > >
                      > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already
                      told you,
                      > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                      supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                      others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                      a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                      why you have major problems with it.
                      > >
                      > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my response,
                      none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They
                      didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There
                      was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have
                      said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck
                      master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                      question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                      > >
                      > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of
                      masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see
                      how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone
                      down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                      egotistical.
                      > >
                      > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                      realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                      the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                      then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                      because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                      > >
                      > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                      (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                      without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                      the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                      things.
                      > >
                      > > Jonathan
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                      <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                      because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                      sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                      ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                      nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                      rationalization.
                      > > >
                      > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in
                      the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no
                      good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind
                      gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no
                      reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the
                      imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar
                      in your dream is just a cigar."
                      > > >
                      > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a
                      master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a
                      master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                      little meaning in the West.
                      > > >
                      > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and
                      scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I
                      can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want
                      to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then
                      you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your
                      claims.
                      > > >
                      > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read
                      it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something
                      valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or
                      helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of
                      Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum,
                      because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                      > > >
                      > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you
                      simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know
                      the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                      psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                      single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                      not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                      > > >
                      > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was
                      "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's
                      program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work
                      the lunacy pedals.
                      > > >
                      > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences,
                      especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally
                      ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences"
                      without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without
                      exhausting all other possible explanations.
                      > > >
                      > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their
                      critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                      <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Harrison,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I
                      believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling
                      you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson
                      emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of
                      people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to
                      read his book.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They
                      were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of
                      inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So
                      what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only)
                      were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you
                      were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing.
                      Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own
                      master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that
                      you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just
                      telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you
                      don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you
                      specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked
                      by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences,
                      plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you
                      evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing
                      like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the
                      local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And
                      asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea
                      of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of
                      us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar
                      said they should be.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                      Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                      how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                      his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                      he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                      exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                      Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary
                      to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there
                      is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a
                      major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely
                      discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are
                      embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                      talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                      reasons.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in
                      Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made
                      me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God."
                      I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I
                      later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                      example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                      it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Jonathan
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                      harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                      amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                      my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                      including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                      something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                      the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                      throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                      in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                      narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                      characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                      that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                      pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                      rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > When you have experiences that show you to be
                      downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell
                      you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you
                      have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you.
                      It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                      because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                      threatens to upset the whole cult.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                      dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                      my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                      nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                      sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                      to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                      satisfying answer.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                      morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                      has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                      ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                      couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                      matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I
                      left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                      what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                      a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                      words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                      writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                      this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                      plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism
                      and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is
                      not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the
                      unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases)
                      believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
                      experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had
                      "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take
                      them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense
                      of self.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least,
                      for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an
                      earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people
                      by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis
                      that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its
                      members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • David Osborn
                      Dear Etznab,      The title Mahanta used for the LEM literally means the leader of the hermitage or ashram, and was a title used by the Kabir Panthis, or
                      Message 10 of 29 , Apr 6, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Etznab,
                             The title "Mahanta" used for the LEM literally means the leader of the hermitage or ashram, and was a title used by the Kabir Panthis, or the followers of Kabir - who Eckankar claimed as one of their own lineage of LEMs. 
                                                                                   David

                        --- On Tue, 4/6/10, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                        From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                        Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                        To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 7:39 PM


                        It's an interesting subject. And I've often contemplated
                        how this idea of "The Master" first evolved over history.
                        Especially on the Indian continent. There were gurus
                        and masters in India for centuries, but the idea of one
                        "Living Master" above all the others sounds more in the
                        line of "Western" dogma (and it's root religions) to me.

                        Like Judaism has the Messiah. Christianity has Christ
                        Islam has Mohammad and Sufism the Qutub.

                        Even though literature about Living Masters appeared
                        in Julian Johnson's 1939 book, I don't know there was
                        specified "THE" Living Master. I think emphasis was
                        on finding "A" Living Master. Perhaps I'm wrong about
                        this.

                        At any rate, I am not sure that it's an Indian belief the
                        idea of "Mahanta" being something like a "Messiah",
                        a "Son of God" or the greatest prophet above others.
                        Instead, I've heard that Indian children are taught from
                        birth that "everybody is God". Singling out one person
                        sounds to me like infiltration of "Western" religion and
                        dogma.

                        I haven't researched the topic sufficiently (to date) in
                        order to conclude where the "idea" of THE MASTER
                        (one above all others) came from and how it entered
                        into Hindu religion. Maybe it is not Hindu, but closer
                        to Sikh, Islamic, Christian or Judaic dogma generally.

                        All of the latter religions made inroads on the Indian
                        continent throughout history, I believe. Islam, Christ-
                        ianity and Sikhism especially. I'm not sure about any
                        Jewish influence though.

                        I can look into this over the next few weeks because
                        I know people familiar with Hindu religion in general.
                        See if I can determine if a "THE MASTER" paradigm
                        existed in ancient Indian religion.

                        Etznab

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                        To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, Apr 6, 2010 7:00 am
                        Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                        Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                         
                        Leaf,

                        I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that people
                        should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't want
                        to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                        impression that I got.

                        If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                        because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                        know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                        was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                        already posted this.

                        As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of Eckankar I
                        obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even concern myself
                        with the question. I believe that each of us is our own master, meaning
                        we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody else is.
                        When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting like they can
                        advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is when I have
                        a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs could have
                        simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking care of
                        your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves as their
                        own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think any of the
                        LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers. It's all a
                        moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned with my own
                        spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.

                        Jonathan

                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                        &lt;tianyue@...&gt; wrote:
                        &gt;
                        &gt; Jonathan,
                        &gt;
                        &gt; In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that
                        Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of
                        "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to
                        say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption
                        is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about
                        Twitchell?
                        &gt;
                        &gt; Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the
                        worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's
                        eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was
                        highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall
                        posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                        practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                        line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                        shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                        gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                        shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                        omniscient, capable of anything.
                        &gt;
                        &gt; Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                        enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                        masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                        &gt;
                        &gt; But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt.
                        Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                        &gt;
                        &gt; "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles,
                        beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
                        those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must
                        overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also
                        taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major
                        disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of
                        His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only
                        does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on
                        earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other
                        planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
                        psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of
                        god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times
                        and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the
                        Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart,
                        and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                        &gt;
                        &gt; Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior,
                        but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and
                        the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is
                        not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual
                        body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body
                        of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and
                        because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which
                        flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is
                        the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative
                        function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man,
                        creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His
                        physical body is the only representation of the channel through which
                        the ECK flows. "
                        &gt;
                        &gt; Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                        &gt;
                        &gt;
                        &gt; --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                        &lt;no_reply@&gt; wrote:
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; Harrison,
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge
                        of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody
                        else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone
                        else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are
                        the one to do it. That's all it means.
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already
                        told you,
                        &gt; &gt; when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                        supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                        others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                        a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                        why you have major problems with it.
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; I know you don't care, but for others reading my response,
                        none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They
                        didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There
                        was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have
                        said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck
                        master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                        question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of
                        masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see
                        how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone
                        down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                        egotistical.
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                        realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                        the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                        then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                        because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; The people who realize that they are their own master
                        (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                        without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                        the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                        things.
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                        &lt;no_reply@&gt; wrote:
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                        because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                        sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                        ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                        nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                        rationalization.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in
                        the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no
                        good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind
                        gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no
                        reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the
                        imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar
                        in your dream is just a cigar."
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; I am not a master of anything or anything close to a
                        master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a
                        master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                        little meaning in the West.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and
                        scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I
                        can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want
                        to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then
                        you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your
                        claims.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read
                        it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something
                        valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or
                        helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of
                        Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum,
                        because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you
                        simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know
                        the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                        psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                        single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                        not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was
                        "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's 
                        program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work
                        the lunacy pedals.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences,
                        especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally
                        ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences"
                        without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without
                        exhausting all other possible explanations.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their
                        critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                        &lt;no_reply@&gt; wrote:
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Harrison,
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I believe you inner experiences were real. And I
                        believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling
                        you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson
                        emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of
                        people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to
                        read his book.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So getting back to your inner experiences. They
                        were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of
                        inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So
                        what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only)
                        were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you
                        were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing.
                        Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own
                        master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that
                        you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just
                        telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you
                        don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From this point on I am no longer talking about you
                        specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked
                        by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences,
                        plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you
                        evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing
                        like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the
                        local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And
                        asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea
                        of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of
                        us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar
                        said they should be.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I still remember something that I read on the
                        Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                        how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                        his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                        he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                        exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                        Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So lots of people have inner experiences contrary
                        to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there
                        is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a
                        major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely
                        discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are
                        embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                        talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                        reasons.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I once told a fellow member that all the books in
                        Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made
                        me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God."
                        I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I
                        later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                        example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                        it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                        harrisonferrel &lt;no_reply@&gt; wrote:
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                        amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                        my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                        including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                        something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                        the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                        throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                        in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                        narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                        characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                        that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                        pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                        rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When you have experiences that show you to be
                        downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell
                        you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you
                        have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you.
                        It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                        because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                        threatens to upset the whole cult.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I've come to see past lives and all other
                        dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                        my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                        nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                        sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                        to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                        satisfying answer.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                        morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                        has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                        ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                        couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                        matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I
                        left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                        what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                        a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                        words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                        writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                        this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                        plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism
                        and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is
                        not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the
                        unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases)
                        believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
                        experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I can only imagine that if harold klemp had
                        "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take
                        them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense
                        of self.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least,
                        for anybody, especially those like  us who entered the cult with an
                        earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people
                        by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis
                        that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its
                        members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt; &gt;
                        &gt; &gt;
                        &gt;


                                 




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                      • etznab@aol.com
                        Yes. Paul Twitchell s early Eckankar dictionary has Kabir referred to as an Eck Master. However, Harold Klemp s Eckankar Lexicon refers to Kabir as a follower
                        Message 11 of 29 , Apr 7, 2010
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                          Yes. Paul Twitchell's early Eckankar dictionary has
                          Kabir referred to as an Eck Master.

                          However, Harold Klemp's Eckankar Lexicon refers
                          to Kabir as a "follower of ECK".

                          Funny that.

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: David Osborn <panfluteman2000@...>
                          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:16 am
                          Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                          Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                           
                          Dear Etznab,
                               The title "Mahanta" used for the LEM literally means the leader of
                          the hermitage or ashram, and was a title used by the Kabir Panthis, or
                          the followers of Kabir - who Eckankar claimed as one of their own
                          lineage of LEMs. 
                                                                                     David

                          --- On Tue, 4/6/10, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                          From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                          Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                          Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, April 6, 2010, 7:39 PM


                          It's an interesting subject. And I've often contemplated
                          how this idea of "The Master" first evolved over history.
                          Especially on the Indian continent. There were gurus
                          and masters in India for centuries, but the idea of one
                          "Living Master" above all the others sounds more in the
                          line of "Western" dogma (and it's root religions) to me.

                          Like Judaism has the Messiah. Christianity has Christ
                          Islam has Mohammad and Sufism the Qutub.

                          Even though literature about Living Masters appeared
                          in Julian Johnson's 1939 book, I don't know there was
                          specified "THE" Living Master. I think emphasis was
                          on finding "A" Living Master. Perhaps I'm wrong about
                          this.

                          At any rate, I am not sure that it's an Indian belief the
                          idea of "Mahanta" being something like a "Messiah",
                          a "Son of God" or the greatest prophet above others.
                          Instead, I've heard that Indian children are taught from
                          birth that "everybody is God". Singling out one person
                          sounds to me like infiltration of "Western" religion and
                          dogma.

                          I haven't researched the topic sufficiently (to date) in
                          order to conclude where the "idea" of THE MASTER
                          (one above all others) came from and how it entered
                          into Hindu religion. Maybe it is not Hindu, but closer
                          to Sikh, Islamic, Christian or Judaic dogma generally.

                          All of the latter religions made inroads on the Indian
                          continent throughout history, I believe. Islam, Christ-
                          ianity and Sikhism especially. I'm not sure about any
                          Jewish influence though.

                          I can look into this over the next few weeks because
                          I know people familiar with Hindu religion in general.
                          See if I can determine if a "THE MASTER" paradigm
                          existed in ancient Indian religion.

                          Etznab

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, Apr 6, 2010 7:00 am
                          Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                          Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                           
                          Leaf,

                          I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that people
                          should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't want
                          to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                          impression that I got.

                          If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                          because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                          know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                          was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                          already posted this.

                          As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of Eckankar I
                          obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even concern myself
                          with the question. I believe that each of us is our own master, meaning
                          we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody else is.
                          When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting like they can
                          advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is when I have
                          a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs could have
                          simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking care of
                          your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves as their
                          own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think any of the
                          LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers. It's all a
                          moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned with my own
                          spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.

                          Jonathan

                          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                          <tianyue@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Jonathan,
                          >
                          > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that
                          Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of
                          "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to
                          say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption
                          is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about
                          Twitchell?
                          >
                          > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the
                          worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's
                          eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was
                          highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall
                          posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                          practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                          line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                          shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                          gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                          shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                          omniscient, capable of anything.
                          >
                          > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                          enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                          masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                          >
                          > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt.
                          Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                          >
                          > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles,
                          beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
                          those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must
                          overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also
                          taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major
                          disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of
                          His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only
                          does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on
                          earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other
                          planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
                          psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of
                          god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times
                          and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the
                          Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart,
                          and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                          >
                          > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior,
                          but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and
                          the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is
                          not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual
                          body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body
                          of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and
                          because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which
                          flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is
                          the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative
                          function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man,
                          creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His
                          physical body is the only representation of the channel through which
                          the ECK flows. "
                          >
                          > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                          <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Harrison,
                          > >
                          > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge
                          of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody
                          else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone
                          else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are
                          the one to do it. That's all it means.
                          > >
                          > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already
                          told you,
                          > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                          supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                          others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                          a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                          why you have major problems with it.
                          > >
                          > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my response,
                          none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They
                          didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There
                          was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have
                          said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck
                          master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                          question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                          > >
                          > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of
                          masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see
                          how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone
                          down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                          egotistical.
                          > >
                          > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                          realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                          the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                          then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                          because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                          > >
                          > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                          (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                          without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                          the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                          things.
                          > >
                          > > Jonathan
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                          <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                          because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                          sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                          ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                          nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                          rationalization.
                          > > >
                          > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in
                          the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no
                          good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind
                          gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no
                          reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the
                          imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar
                          in your dream is just a cigar."
                          > > >
                          > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a
                          master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a
                          master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                          little meaning in the West.
                          > > >
                          > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and
                          scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I
                          can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want
                          to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then
                          you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your
                          claims.
                          > > >
                          > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read
                          it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something
                          valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or
                          helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of
                          Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum,
                          because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                          > > >
                          > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you
                          simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know
                          the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                          psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                          single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                          not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                          > > >
                          > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was
                          "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's 
                          program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work
                          the lunacy pedals.
                          > > >
                          > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences,
                          especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally
                          ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences"
                          without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without
                          exhausting all other possible explanations.
                          > > >
                          > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their
                          critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                          <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Harrison,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I
                          believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling
                          you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson
                          emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of
                          people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to
                          read his book.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They
                          were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of
                          inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So
                          what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only)
                          were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you
                          were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing.
                          Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own
                          master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that
                          you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just
                          telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you
                          don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you
                          specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked
                          by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences,
                          plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you
                          evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing
                          like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the
                          local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And
                          asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea
                          of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of
                          us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar
                          said they should be.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                          Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                          how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                          his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                          he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                          exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                          Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary
                          to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there
                          is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a
                          major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely
                          discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are
                          embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                          talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                          reasons.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in
                          Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made
                          me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God."
                          I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I
                          later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                          example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                          it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Jonathan
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                          harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                          amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                          my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                          including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                          something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                          the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                          throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                          in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                          narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                          characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                          that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                          pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                          rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > When you have experiences that show you to be
                          downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell
                          you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you
                          have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you.
                          It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                          because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                          threatens to upset the whole cult.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                          dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                          my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                          nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                          sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                          to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                          satisfying answer.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                          morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                          has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                          ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                          couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                          matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I
                          left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                          what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                          a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                          words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                          writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                          this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                          plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism
                          and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is
                          not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the
                          unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases)
                          believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
                          experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had
                          "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take
                          them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense
                          of self.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least,
                          for anybody, especially those like  us who entered the cult with an
                          earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people
                          by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis
                          that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its
                          members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >


                                   




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                        • jonathanjohns96
                          Etznab, I m wondering about one thing. How many Hindus actually follow a guru? And how devoted are they? A Hindu guy I knew in college had a photo of Yogananda
                          Message 12 of 29 , Apr 7, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Etznab,

                            I'm wondering about one thing. How many Hindus actually follow a guru? And how devoted are they?

                            A Hindu guy I knew in college had a photo of Yogananda on his dresser.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda

                            I asked him about it, and he said it wasn't a big deal. He said that he always felt that there was something special about the guy, and he admired him, but that is all there was to it. This guy always told me the truth, and was very open so I tend to believe him about this. This situation tells me that just because Hindus have a photo of a guru displayed, it doesn't mean that they are a devout follower, whereas in the West we would automatically conclude that.

                            The second Hindu I spoke with was a lady living in the United States. I wrote about her on ESA over a year ago. She told me that she went to the local Hindu temple, and listened to the priest there, but she did not follow any guru. She was very emphatic about that.

                            So I am wondering? How many Hindus actually follow a guru? Could it be a really low number like ten percent?

                            Do we in the West simply assume that all Hindus follow a guru? The lady whom I spoke to made a point of stating she didn't follow a guru; I didn't specifically ask her about that. Is it possible that she started the habit of doing that because she noticed that Americans tend to assume that all Hindus follow a guru?

                            I'd really like to hear a percentage of how many Hindus actually follow a guru.

                            Jonathan



                            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > It's an interesting subject. And I've often contemplated
                            > how this idea of "The Master" first evolved over history.
                            > Especially on the Indian continent. There were gurus
                            > and masters in India for centuries, but the idea of one
                            > "Living Master" above all the others sounds more in the
                            > line of "Western" dogma (and it's root religions) to me.
                            >
                            > Like Judaism has the Messiah. Christianity has Christ
                            > Islam has Mohammad and Sufism the Qutub.
                            >
                            > Even though literature about Living Masters appeared
                            > in Julian Johnson's 1939 book, I don't know there was
                            > specified "THE" Living Master. I think emphasis was
                            > on finding "A" Living Master. Perhaps I'm wrong about
                            > this.
                            >
                            > At any rate, I am not sure that it's an Indian belief the
                            > idea of "Mahanta" being something like a "Messiah",
                            > a "Son of God" or the greatest prophet above others.
                            > Instead, I've heard that Indian children are taught from
                            > birth that "everybody is God". Singling out one person
                            > sounds to me like infiltration of "Western" religion and
                            > dogma.
                            >
                            > I haven't researched the topic sufficiently (to date) in
                            > order to conclude where the "idea" of THE MASTER
                            > (one above all others) came from and how it entered
                            > into Hindu religion. Maybe it is not Hindu, but closer
                            > to Sikh, Islamic, Christian or Judaic dogma generally.
                            >
                            > All of the latter religions made inroads on the Indian
                            > continent throughout history, I believe. Islam, Christ-
                            > ianity and Sikhism especially. I'm not sure about any
                            > Jewish influence though.
                            >
                            > I can look into this over the next few weeks because
                            > I know people familiar with Hindu religion in general.
                            > See if I can determine if a "THE MASTER" paradigm
                            > existed in ancient Indian religion.
                            >
                            > Etznab
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                            > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Tue, Apr 6, 2010 7:00 am
                            > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                            > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                            >
                            >  
                            > Leaf,
                            >
                            > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that people
                            > should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't want
                            > to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                            > impression that I got.
                            >
                            > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                            > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                            > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                            > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                            > already posted this.
                            >
                            > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of Eckankar I
                            > obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even concern myself
                            > with the question. I believe that each of us is our own master, meaning
                            > we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody else is.
                            > When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting like they can
                            > advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is when I have
                            > a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs could have
                            > simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking care of
                            > your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves as their
                            > own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think any of the
                            > LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers. It's all a
                            > moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned with my own
                            > spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                            >
                            > Jonathan
                            >
                            > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                            > tianyue@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Jonathan,
                            > >
                            > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that
                            > Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of
                            > "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to
                            > say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption
                            > is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about
                            > Twitchell?
                            > >
                            > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the
                            > worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's
                            > eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was
                            > highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall
                            > posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                            > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                            > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                            > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                            > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                            > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                            > omniscient, capable of anything.
                            > >
                            > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                            > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                            > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                            > >
                            > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt.
                            > Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                            > >
                            > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles,
                            > beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
                            > those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must
                            > overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also
                            > taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major
                            > disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of
                            > His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only
                            > does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on
                            > earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other
                            > planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
                            > psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of
                            > god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times
                            > and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the
                            > Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart,
                            > and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                            > >
                            > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior,
                            > but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and
                            > the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is
                            > not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual
                            > body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body
                            > of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and
                            > because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which
                            > flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is
                            > the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative
                            > function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man,
                            > creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His
                            > physical body is the only representation of the channel through which
                            > the ECK flows. "
                            > >
                            > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                            > <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Harrison,
                            > > >
                            > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge
                            > of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody
                            > else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone
                            > else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are
                            > the one to do it. That's all it means.
                            > > >
                            > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already
                            > told you,
                            > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                            > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                            > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                            > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                            > why you have major problems with it.
                            > > >
                            > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my response,
                            > none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They
                            > didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There
                            > was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have
                            > said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck
                            > master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                            > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                            > > >
                            > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of
                            > masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see
                            > how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone
                            > down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                            > egotistical.
                            > > >
                            > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                            > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                            > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                            > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                            > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                            > > >
                            > > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                            > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                            > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                            > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                            > things.
                            > > >
                            > > > Jonathan
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                            > <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                            > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                            > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                            > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                            > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                            > rationalization.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in
                            > the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no
                            > good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind
                            > gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no
                            > reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the
                            > imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar
                            > in your dream is just a cigar."
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a
                            > master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a
                            > master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                            > little meaning in the West.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and
                            > scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I
                            > can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want
                            > to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then
                            > you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your
                            > claims.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read
                            > it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something
                            > valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or
                            > helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of
                            > Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum,
                            > because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you
                            > simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know
                            > the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                            > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                            > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                            > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was
                            > "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's
                            > program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work
                            > the lunacy pedals.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences,
                            > especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally
                            > ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences"
                            > without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without
                            > exhausting all other possible explanations.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their
                            > critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                            > <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Harrison,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I
                            > believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling
                            > you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson
                            > emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of
                            > people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to
                            > read his book.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They
                            > were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of
                            > inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So
                            > what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only)
                            > were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you
                            > were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing.
                            > Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own
                            > master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that
                            > you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just
                            > telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you
                            > don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you
                            > specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked
                            > by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences,
                            > plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you
                            > evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing
                            > like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the
                            > local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And
                            > asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea
                            > of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of
                            > us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar
                            > said they should be.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                            > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                            > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                            > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                            > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                            > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                            > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary
                            > to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there
                            > is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a
                            > major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely
                            > discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are
                            > embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                            > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                            > reasons.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in
                            > Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made
                            > me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God."
                            > I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I
                            > later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                            > example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                            > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Jonathan
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                            > harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                            > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                            > my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                            > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                            > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                            > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                            > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                            > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                            > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                            > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                            > that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                            > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                            > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you to be
                            > downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell
                            > you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you
                            > have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you.
                            > It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                            > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                            > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                            > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                            > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                            > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                            > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                            > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                            > satisfying answer.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                            > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                            > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                            > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                            > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                            > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I
                            > left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                            > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                            > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                            > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                            > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                            > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                            > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism
                            > and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is
                            > not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the
                            > unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases)
                            > believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
                            > experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had
                            > "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take
                            > them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense
                            > of self.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least,
                            > for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an
                            > earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people
                            > by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis
                            > that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its
                            > members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • jonathanjohns96
                            All, I have a few more observations. I had a friend from Thailand who was a graduate student. I once asked him What is the most difficult thing you had to
                            Message 13 of 29 , Apr 7, 2010
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                              All,

                              I have a few more observations. I had a friend from Thailand who was a graduate student. I once asked him "What is the most difficult thing you had to adjust to when you came to the United States?" His exact words were "I had a hard time getting used to the idea of everybody being equal." Perplexed, I asked him "What do you mean?" He said that in Thailand everyone is either higher or lower than everybody else. He said that when you first meet someone in Thailand, each person will evaluate the other according to social status. A teacher is higher than a cab driver, etc. They reason they MUST do this is because a Thai person addresses another Thai with different words whether they are lower than themselves or higher than themselves. So if I were Thai, and I am talking to you, and said "Thank you" I would use one word for "you" if you are of higher social status, a different word for "you" if you are of lower social status then me. So everybody in Thailand constantly evaluates other people in this regard so that they know what word to "call" the other person.

                              Another interesting thing about Thailand. The first day of school there is designated as "honor the teacher day." Students spend the entire day giving talks thanking their teachers and presenting them with gifts. So the culture of honoring teachers is so strong that to Westerners it would border on worshiping their teachers.

                              How does this apply to India? I don't know specifically about India. I don't know whether these two things exist there. But the fact that the caste system existed there for a long time, and the mental attitude of it probably still exists, I would say that people in India are used to constantly evaluating others according to social status. And they then go along with some kind of rules which dictate how they are supposed to treat the other person.

                              In India, do they honor teachers almost the point of what Westerners would see as worship? I don't know, but I would not be at all surprised if they did. They do have an extreme respect for education.

                              I hope I have explained this well enough to indicate to you that something bordering on the worship of people of a higher status (from a Western viewpoint) is basically built into Thai culture. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true in India.

                              By the way, I lived in Thailand for a year; that's how I know what goes on there with regard to the "honor the teacher day."

                              Jonathan


                              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Etznab,
                              >
                              > I'm wondering about one thing. How many Hindus actually follow a guru? And how devoted are they?
                              >
                              > A Hindu guy I knew in college had a photo of Yogananda on his dresser.
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda
                              >
                              > I asked him about it, and he said it wasn't a big deal. He said that he always felt that there was something special about the guy, and he admired him, but that is all there was to it. This guy always told me the truth, and was very open so I tend to believe him about this. This situation tells me that just because Hindus have a photo of a guru displayed, it doesn't mean that they are a devout follower, whereas in the West we would automatically conclude that.
                              >
                              > The second Hindu I spoke with was a lady living in the United States. I wrote about her on ESA over a year ago. She told me that she went to the local Hindu temple, and listened to the priest there, but she did not follow any guru. She was very emphatic about that.
                              >
                              > So I am wondering? How many Hindus actually follow a guru? Could it be a really low number like ten percent?
                              >
                              > Do we in the West simply assume that all Hindus follow a guru? The lady whom I spoke to made a point of stating she didn't follow a guru; I didn't specifically ask her about that. Is it possible that she started the habit of doing that because she noticed that Americans tend to assume that all Hindus follow a guru?
                              >
                              > I'd really like to hear a percentage of how many Hindus actually follow a guru.
                              >
                              > Jonathan
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > It's an interesting subject. And I've often contemplated
                              > > how this idea of "The Master" first evolved over history.
                              > > Especially on the Indian continent. There were gurus
                              > > and masters in India for centuries, but the idea of one
                              > > "Living Master" above all the others sounds more in the
                              > > line of "Western" dogma (and it's root religions) to me.
                              > >
                              > > Like Judaism has the Messiah. Christianity has Christ
                              > > Islam has Mohammad and Sufism the Qutub.
                              > >
                              > > Even though literature about Living Masters appeared
                              > > in Julian Johnson's 1939 book, I don't know there was
                              > > specified "THE" Living Master. I think emphasis was
                              > > on finding "A" Living Master. Perhaps I'm wrong about
                              > > this.
                              > >
                              > > At any rate, I am not sure that it's an Indian belief the
                              > > idea of "Mahanta" being something like a "Messiah",
                              > > a "Son of God" or the greatest prophet above others.
                              > > Instead, I've heard that Indian children are taught from
                              > > birth that "everybody is God". Singling out one person
                              > > sounds to me like infiltration of "Western" religion and
                              > > dogma.
                              > >
                              > > I haven't researched the topic sufficiently (to date) in
                              > > order to conclude where the "idea" of THE MASTER
                              > > (one above all others) came from and how it entered
                              > > into Hindu religion. Maybe it is not Hindu, but closer
                              > > to Sikh, Islamic, Christian or Judaic dogma generally.
                              > >
                              > > All of the latter religions made inroads on the Indian
                              > > continent throughout history, I believe. Islam, Christ-
                              > > ianity and Sikhism especially. I'm not sure about any
                              > > Jewish influence though.
                              > >
                              > > I can look into this over the next few weeks because
                              > > I know people familiar with Hindu religion in general.
                              > > See if I can determine if a "THE MASTER" paradigm
                              > > existed in ancient Indian religion.
                              > >
                              > > Etznab
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Tue, Apr 6, 2010 7:00 am
                              > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                              > > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                              > >
                              > >  
                              > > Leaf,
                              > >
                              > > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that people
                              > > should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't want
                              > > to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                              > > impression that I got.
                              > >
                              > > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                              > > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                              > > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                              > > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                              > > already posted this.
                              > >
                              > > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of Eckankar I
                              > > obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even concern myself
                              > > with the question. I believe that each of us is our own master, meaning
                              > > we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody else is.
                              > > When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting like they can
                              > > advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is when I have
                              > > a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs could have
                              > > simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking care of
                              > > your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves as their
                              > > own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think any of the
                              > > LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers. It's all a
                              > > moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned with my own
                              > > spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                              > >
                              > > Jonathan
                              > >
                              > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                              > > tianyue@ wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Jonathan,
                              > > >
                              > > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that
                              > > Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of
                              > > "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to
                              > > say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption
                              > > is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about
                              > > Twitchell?
                              > > >
                              > > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the
                              > > worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's
                              > > eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was
                              > > highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall
                              > > posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                              > > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                              > > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                              > > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                              > > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                              > > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                              > > omniscient, capable of anything.
                              > > >
                              > > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                              > > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                              > > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                              > > >
                              > > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt.
                              > > Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                              > > >
                              > > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles,
                              > > beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
                              > > those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must
                              > > overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also
                              > > taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major
                              > > disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of
                              > > His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only
                              > > does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on
                              > > earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other
                              > > planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
                              > > psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of
                              > > god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times
                              > > and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the
                              > > Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart,
                              > > and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                              > > >
                              > > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior,
                              > > but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and
                              > > the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is
                              > > not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual
                              > > body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body
                              > > of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and
                              > > because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which
                              > > flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is
                              > > the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative
                              > > function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man,
                              > > creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His
                              > > physical body is the only representation of the channel through which
                              > > the ECK flows. "
                              > > >
                              > > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                              > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Harrison,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge
                              > > of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody
                              > > else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone
                              > > else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are
                              > > the one to do it. That's all it means.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already
                              > > told you,
                              > > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                              > > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                              > > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                              > > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                              > > why you have major problems with it.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my response,
                              > > none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They
                              > > didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There
                              > > was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have
                              > > said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck
                              > > master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                              > > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of
                              > > masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see
                              > > how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone
                              > > down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                              > > egotistical.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                              > > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                              > > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                              > > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                              > > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                              > > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                              > > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                              > > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                              > > things.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Jonathan
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                              > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                              > > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                              > > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                              > > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                              > > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                              > > rationalization.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in
                              > > the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no
                              > > good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind
                              > > gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no
                              > > reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the
                              > > imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar
                              > > in your dream is just a cigar."
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a
                              > > master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a
                              > > master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                              > > little meaning in the West.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and
                              > > scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I
                              > > can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want
                              > > to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then
                              > > you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your
                              > > claims.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read
                              > > it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something
                              > > valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or
                              > > helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of
                              > > Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum,
                              > > because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you
                              > > simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know
                              > > the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                              > > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                              > > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                              > > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was
                              > > "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's
                              > > program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work
                              > > the lunacy pedals.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences,
                              > > especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally
                              > > ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences"
                              > > without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without
                              > > exhausting all other possible explanations.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their
                              > > critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                              > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Harrison,
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I
                              > > believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling
                              > > you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson
                              > > emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of
                              > > people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to
                              > > read his book.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They
                              > > were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of
                              > > inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So
                              > > what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only)
                              > > were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you
                              > > were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing.
                              > > Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own
                              > > master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that
                              > > you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just
                              > > telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you
                              > > don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you
                              > > specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked
                              > > by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences,
                              > > plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you
                              > > evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing
                              > > like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the
                              > > local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And
                              > > asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea
                              > > of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of
                              > > us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar
                              > > said they should be.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                              > > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                              > > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                              > > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                              > > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                              > > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                              > > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary
                              > > to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there
                              > > is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a
                              > > major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely
                              > > discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are
                              > > embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                              > > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                              > > reasons.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in
                              > > Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made
                              > > me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God."
                              > > I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I
                              > > later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                              > > example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                              > > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Jonathan
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                              > > harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                              > > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                              > > my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                              > > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                              > > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                              > > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                              > > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                              > > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                              > > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                              > > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                              > > that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                              > > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                              > > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you to be
                              > > downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell
                              > > you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you
                              > > have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you.
                              > > It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                              > > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                              > > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                              > > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                              > > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                              > > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                              > > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                              > > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                              > > satisfying answer.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                              > > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                              > > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                              > > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                              > > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                              > > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I
                              > > left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                              > > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                              > > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                              > > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                              > > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                              > > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                              > > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism
                              > > and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is
                              > > not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the
                              > > unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases)
                              > > believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
                              > > experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had
                              > > "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take
                              > > them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense
                              > > of self.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least,
                              > > for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an
                              > > earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people
                              > > by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis
                              > > that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its
                              > > members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              Traditionally speaking, I think the Hindu guru was like a teacher, instructor, or mentor. Like, if a person wanted to learn something, whether carpentry,
                              Message 14 of 29 , Apr 8, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Traditionally speaking, I think the Hindu "guru"
                                was like a teacher, instructor, or mentor. Like,
                                if a person wanted to learn something, whether
                                carpentry, art, or whatever, they would go live
                                with a person who had experience in that field.
                                In other words, it would be like a one on one
                                form of teaching. This was probably common
                                at one time. And not only in India.

                                Did you ever watch Kung Fu Theater? A show
                                years ago where people would go find a master
                                to teach them martial arts? They would spend
                                time with the person until they learned the skill.
                                Then they would move on.

                                I could be wrong, but my understanding of the
                                traditional Hindu guru (in the olden days) was
                                like a way for a person to get an education. It
                                sounds to me a little like private and / or home
                                schooling.

                                How the idea of "guru" morphed into "God on
                                Earth", "The Chosen One" or "Only Begotten
                                Son of God" (born of a virgin and all that) ... it
                                sounds to me like Western religious influence.
                                For all I know it could be a form of control, like
                                what Constantine did with Christianity. Wiping
                                out the Pagan influences and subjecting them
                                to a single banner under the Roman Empire.
                                *Catholic means "universal", I think. And so it
                                seems (to me) that the State had an influence
                                over religion at one time. More or less deciding
                                how official dogma was written. At one time
                                you had the Roman Emperor naming the Pope.
                                Another time the Popes named the Emperors.
                                I think.

                                So imagine what it was like after Islam, and
                                later Christianity, entering India. Especially the
                                continent of India under British influence. It's
                                just a guess on my part, but if you could get
                                all the people - even a large portion of people to
                                follow one person (be it guru, whatever) think of
                                the influence a foreign power could have in India
                                if they propped up a certain "guru". In today's
                                world when a foreign power wants to influence
                                another country they usually try to put in power
                                a person sympathetic to their interests. And
                                get people to support / follow that person - even
                                if that means overthrowing (by revolution or *coup)
                                the ruling establishment.

                                It's all just guessing on my part, but I'm trying
                                to imagine how monotheistic religions looked
                                upon the people of India with all their "gods" &
                                icons, etc. Idol worship could very easily be in-
                                terpreted as unreligious to a monotheistic faith.
                                And I don't doubt that people from the West in-
                                terpreted ancient Indian beliefs according to their
                                own understanding.

                                So how do I know this paradigm about a single
                                person representing "God" on Earth was not a
                                natural consequence of people in power having
                                a desire to find a way for controlling the masses?
                                Especially those with varied spiritual beliefs?

                                When missionaries go to indigenous cultures
                                and introduce their "God" and "Savior" is it out
                                of respect for indigenous beliefs and culture?
                                Or is it a means to "save" and / or influence
                                those foreign people?

                                A really good subject this is. IMO.

                                *Catholic

                                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=catholic&searchmode=none

                                Coup

                                http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=coup&searchmode=none




                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:08 pm
                                Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                 
                                Etznab,

                                I'm wondering about one thing. How many Hindus actually follow a guru?
                                And how devoted are they?

                                A Hindu guy I knew in college had a photo of Yogananda on his dresser.

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda

                                I asked him about it, and he said it wasn't a big deal. He said that he
                                always felt that there was something special about the guy, and he
                                admired him, but that is all there was to it. This guy always told me
                                the truth, and was very open so I tend to believe him about this. This
                                situation tells me that just because Hindus have a photo of a guru
                                displayed, it doesn't mean that they are a devout follower, whereas in
                                the West we would automatically conclude that.

                                The second Hindu I spoke with was a lady living in the United States. I
                                wrote about her on ESA over a year ago. She told me that she went to
                                the local Hindu temple, and listened to the priest there, but she did
                                not follow any guru. She was very emphatic about that.

                                So I am wondering? How many Hindus actually follow a guru? Could it be
                                a really low number like ten percent?

                                Do we in the West simply assume that all Hindus follow a guru? The lady
                                whom I spoke to made a point of stating she didn't follow a guru; I
                                didn't specifically ask her about that. Is it possible that she started
                                the habit of doing that because she noticed that Americans tend to
                                assume that all Hindus follow a guru?

                                I'd really like to hear a percentage of how many Hindus actually follow
                                a guru.

                                Jonathan

                                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > It's an interesting subject. And I've often contemplated
                                > how this idea of "The Master" first evolved over history.
                                > Especially on the Indian continent. There were gurus
                                > and masters in India for centuries, but the idea of one
                                > "Living Master" above all the others sounds more in the
                                > line of "Western" dogma (and it's root religions) to me.
                                >
                                > Like Judaism has the Messiah. Christianity has Christ
                                > Islam has Mohammad and Sufism the Qutub.
                                >
                                > Even though literature about Living Masters appeared
                                > in Julian Johnson's 1939 book, I don't know there was
                                > specified "THE" Living Master. I think emphasis was
                                > on finding "A" Living Master. Perhaps I'm wrong about
                                > this.
                                >
                                > At any rate, I am not sure that it's an Indian belief the
                                > idea of "Mahanta" being something like a "Messiah",
                                > a "Son of God" or the greatest prophet above others.
                                > Instead, I've heard that Indian children are taught from
                                > birth that "everybody is God". Singling out one person
                                > sounds to me like infiltration of "Western" religion and
                                > dogma.
                                >
                                > I haven't researched the topic sufficiently (to date) in
                                > order to conclude where the "idea" of THE MASTER
                                > (one above all others) came from and how it entered
                                > into Hindu religion. Maybe it is not Hindu, but closer
                                > to Sikh, Islamic, Christian or Judaic dogma generally.
                                >
                                > All of the latter religions made inroads on the Indian
                                > continent throughout history, I believe. Islam, Christ-
                                > ianity and Sikhism especially. I'm not sure about any
                                > Jewish influence though.
                                >
                                > I can look into this over the next few weeks because
                                > I know people familiar with Hindu religion in general.
                                > See if I can determine if a "THE MASTER" paradigm
                                > existed in ancient Indian religion.
                                >
                                > Etznab
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Tue, Apr 6, 2010 7:00 am
                                > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                Maybe.
                                > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                >
                                >  
                                > Leaf,
                                >
                                > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that
                                people
                                > should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't
                                want
                                > to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                                > impression that I got.
                                >
                                > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                                > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I
                                don't
                                > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from
                                someone who
                                > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may
                                have
                                > already posted this.
                                >
                                > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                Eckankar I
                                > obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even concern
                                myself
                                > with the question. I believe that each of us is our own master,
                                meaning
                                > we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody else
                                is.
                                > When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting like
                                they can
                                > advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is when I
                                have
                                > a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs could
                                have
                                > simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking care
                                of
                                > your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves as
                                their
                                > own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think any of
                                the
                                > LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers. It's
                                all a
                                > moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned with
                                my own
                                > spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                >
                                > Jonathan
                                >
                                > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                                > tianyue@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Jonathan,
                                > >
                                > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have
                                that
                                > Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                think of
                                > "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just
                                have to
                                > say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your
                                assumption
                                > is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about
                                > Twitchell?
                                > >
                                > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp,
                                and the
                                > worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's
                                > eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT
                                was
                                > highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall
                                > posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                                > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand
                                in
                                > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and
                                would
                                > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                > omniscient, capable of anything.
                                > >
                                > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                                > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                > >
                                > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                doubt.
                                > Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                > >
                                > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                principles,
                                > beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for
                                all
                                > those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He
                                must
                                > overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are
                                also
                                > taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the
                                major
                                > disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part
                                of
                                > His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not
                                only
                                > does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race
                                on
                                > earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on
                                other
                                > planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
                                > psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                planes of
                                > god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at
                                times
                                > and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in
                                the
                                > Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His
                                heart,
                                > and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                                > >
                                > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world
                                savior,
                                > but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes,
                                and
                                > the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This
                                is
                                > not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
                                spiritual
                                > body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual
                                body
                                > of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself,
                                and
                                > because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence
                                which
                                > flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT.
                                This is
                                > the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the
                                creative
                                > function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man,
                                > creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                life. His
                                > physical body is the only representation of the channel through
                                which
                                > the ECK flows. "
                                > >
                                > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Harrison,
                                > > >
                                > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in
                                charge
                                > of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words,
                                nobody
                                > else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to
                                someone
                                > else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU
                                are
                                > the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                > > >
                                > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                already
                                > told you,
                                > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                                > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you
                                that
                                > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I
                                understand
                                > why you have major problems with it.
                                > > >
                                > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                response,
                                > none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They
                                > didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least.
                                There
                                > was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to
                                have
                                > said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The
                                Eck
                                > master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                                > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                > > >
                                > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship
                                of
                                > masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to
                                see
                                > how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to
                                tone
                                > down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                > egotistical.
                                > > >
                                > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                                > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start
                                worshiping
                                > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God
                                realized" and
                                > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the
                                test"
                                > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                > > >
                                > > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                                > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their
                                own
                                > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have
                                "passed
                                > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking
                                at
                                > things.
                                > > >
                                > > > Jonathan
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                                > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                                > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your
                                reply
                                > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions
                                and
                                > rationalization.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue
                                in
                                > the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based
                                on no
                                > good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the
                                mind
                                > gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there
                                is no
                                > reason to read into these images anything more than the workings
                                of the
                                > imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a
                                cigar
                                > in your dream is just a cigar."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to
                                a
                                > master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she
                                is a
                                > master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                                > little meaning in the West.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images
                                and
                                > scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                analogy, I
                                > can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you
                                want
                                > to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message,
                                then
                                > you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your
                                > claims.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I
                                read
                                > it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                something
                                > valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or
                                > helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of
                                > Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                forum,
                                > because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions,
                                you
                                > simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't
                                know
                                > the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on
                                a
                                > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do.
                                It's
                                > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that
                                he was
                                > "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                klemp's
                                > program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to
                                work
                                > the lunacy pedals.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                experiences,
                                > especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But
                                equally
                                > ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or
                                "experiences"
                                > without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post,
                                without
                                > exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of
                                their
                                > critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                jonathanjohns96
                                > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Harrison,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And
                                I
                                > believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                telling
                                > you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford
                                Johnson
                                > emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a
                                lot of
                                > people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the
                                time to
                                > read his book.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences.
                                They
                                > were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type
                                of
                                > inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly).
                                So
                                > what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                only)
                                > were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when
                                you
                                > were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one
                                thing.
                                > Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your
                                own
                                > master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think
                                that
                                > you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was
                                just
                                > telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2)
                                you
                                > don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                about you
                                > specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                hand-picked
                                > by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                experiences,
                                > plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as
                                you
                                > evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are
                                nothing
                                > like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask
                                the
                                > local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And
                                > asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst
                                idea
                                > of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of
                                all of
                                > us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what
                                Eckankar
                                > said they should be.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                                > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story
                                about
                                > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly
                                left
                                > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put
                                it,
                                > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you
                                there.
                                > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                contrary
                                > to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do,
                                there
                                > is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is
                                actually a
                                > major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely
                                > discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are
                                > embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                                > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                > reasons.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books
                                in
                                > Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences
                                made
                                > me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of
                                God."
                                > I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I
                                > later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                                > example of somebody having different experiences, and before you
                                know
                                > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Jonathan
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                > harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                                > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the
                                contents of
                                > my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms
                                that
                                > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major
                                events
                                > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                                > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of
                                deranged
                                > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little
                                bell
                                > that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded
                                nutjob
                                > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
                                un-believe-able.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you
                                to be
                                > downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to
                                tell
                                > you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When
                                you
                                > have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with
                                you.
                                > It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                                > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                                > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of
                                much of
                                > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with
                                any
                                > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
                                want
                                > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                > satisfying answer.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                                > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind.
                                It
                                > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed,
                                years
                                > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar,
                                I
                                > left and looked into just about every other possible explanation
                                for
                                > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that
                                eckankar, as
                                > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions
                                for old
                                > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in
                                the
                                > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people
                                in
                                > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown
                                innumerable
                                > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                Buddhism
                                > and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                imagination is
                                > not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to
                                the
                                > unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases)
                                > believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
                                > experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp
                                had
                                > "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would
                                take
                                > them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted
                                sense
                                > of self.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                least,
                                > for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with
                                an
                                > earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better
                                people
                                > by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the
                                diagnosis
                                > that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give
                                to its
                                > members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the
                                helm.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • etznab@aol.com
                                Just as a side note. Does anybody know how the darker skinned indigenous people from southern India were treated when that caste system came in with the
                                Message 15 of 29 , Apr 8, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Just as a side note. Does anybody know
                                  how the darker skinned indigenous people
                                  from southern India were treated when that
                                  caste system came in with the Aryans?

                                  I mean, like what proportion of the darker
                                  skinned people from southern India were
                                  relegated to the lower castes generally?

                                  Etznab

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                  To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39 pm
                                  Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                  Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                   
                                  All,

                                  I have a few more observations. I had a friend from Thailand who was a
                                  graduate student. I once asked him "What is the most difficult thing
                                  you had to adjust to when you came to the United States?" His exact
                                  words were "I had a hard time getting used to the idea of everybody
                                  being equal." Perplexed, I asked him "What do you mean?" He said that
                                  in Thailand everyone is either higher or lower than everybody else. He
                                  said that when you first meet someone in Thailand, each person will
                                  evaluate the other according to social status. A teacher is higher than
                                  a cab driver, etc. They reason they MUST do this is because a Thai
                                  person addresses another Thai with different words whether they are
                                  lower than themselves or higher than themselves. So if I were Thai, and
                                  I am talking to you, and said "Thank you" I would use one word for
                                  "you" if you are of higher social status, a different word for "you" if
                                  you are of lower social status then me. So everybody in Thailand
                                  constantly evaluates other people in this regard so that they know what
                                  word to "call" the other person.

                                  Another interesting thing about Thailand. The first day of school there
                                  is designated as "honor the teacher day." Students spend the entire day
                                  giving talks thanking their teachers and presenting them with gifts. So
                                  the culture of honoring teachers is so strong that to Westerners it
                                  would border on worshiping their teachers.

                                  How does this apply to India? I don't know specifically about India. I
                                  don't know whether these two things exist there. But the fact that the
                                  caste system existed there for a long time, and the mental attitude of
                                  it probably still exists, I would say that people in India are used to
                                  constantly evaluating others according to social status. And they then
                                  go along with some kind of rules which dictate how they are supposed to
                                  treat the other person.

                                  In India, do they honor teachers almost the point of what Westerners
                                  would see as worship? I don't know, but I would not be at all surprised
                                  if they did. They do have an extreme respect for education.

                                  I hope I have explained this well enough to indicate to you that
                                  something bordering on the worship of people of a higher status (from a
                                  Western viewpoint) is basically built into Thai culture. I wouldn't be
                                  surprised if the same is true in India.

                                  By the way, I lived in Thailand for a year; that's how I know what goes
                                  on there with regard to the "honor the teacher day."

                                  Jonathan

                                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                  <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Etznab,
                                  >
                                  > I'm wondering about one thing. How many Hindus actually follow a
                                  guru? And how devoted are they?
                                  >
                                  > A Hindu guy I knew in college had a photo of Yogananda on his
                                  dresser.
                                  >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda
                                  >
                                  > I asked him about it, and he said it wasn't a big deal. He said
                                  that he always felt that there was something special about the guy, and
                                  he admired him, but that is all there was to it. This guy always told
                                  me the truth, and was very open so I tend to believe him about this.
                                  This situation tells me that just because Hindus have a photo of a guru
                                  displayed, it doesn't mean that they are a devout follower, whereas in
                                  the West we would automatically conclude that.
                                  >
                                  > The second Hindu I spoke with was a lady living in the United
                                  States. I wrote about her on ESA over a year ago. She told me that she
                                  went to the local Hindu temple, and listened to the priest there, but
                                  she did not follow any guru. She was very emphatic about that.
                                  >
                                  > So I am wondering? How many Hindus actually follow a guru? Could
                                  it be a really low number like ten percent?
                                  >
                                  > Do we in the West simply assume that all Hindus follow a guru? The
                                  lady whom I spoke to made a point of stating she didn't follow a guru;
                                  I didn't specifically ask her about that. Is it possible that she
                                  started the habit of doing that because she noticed that Americans tend
                                  to assume that all Hindus follow a guru?
                                  >
                                  > I'd really like to hear a percentage of how many Hindus actually
                                  follow a guru.
                                  >
                                  > Jonathan
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, etznab@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > It's an interesting subject. And I've often contemplated
                                  > > how this idea of "The Master" first evolved over history.
                                  > > Especially on the Indian continent. There were gurus
                                  > > and masters in India for centuries, but the idea of one
                                  > > "Living Master" above all the others sounds more in the
                                  > > line of "Western" dogma (and it's root religions) to me.
                                  > >
                                  > > Like Judaism has the Messiah. Christianity has Christ
                                  > > Islam has Mohammad and Sufism the Qutub.
                                  > >
                                  > > Even though literature about Living Masters appeared
                                  > > in Julian Johnson's 1939 book, I don't know there was
                                  > > specified "THE" Living Master. I think emphasis was
                                  > > on finding "A" Living Master. Perhaps I'm wrong about
                                  > > this.
                                  > >
                                  > > At any rate, I am not sure that it's an Indian belief the
                                  > > idea of "Mahanta" being something like a "Messiah",
                                  > > a "Son of God" or the greatest prophet above others.
                                  > > Instead, I've heard that Indian children are taught from
                                  > > birth that "everybody is God". Singling out one person
                                  > > sounds to me like infiltration of "Western" religion and
                                  > > dogma.
                                  > >
                                  > > I haven't researched the topic sufficiently (to date) in
                                  > > order to conclude where the "idea" of THE MASTER
                                  > > (one above all others) came from and how it entered
                                  > > into Hindu religion. Maybe it is not Hindu, but closer
                                  > > to Sikh, Islamic, Christian or Judaic dogma generally.
                                  > >
                                  > > All of the latter religions made inroads on the Indian
                                  > > continent throughout history, I believe. Islam, Christ-
                                  > > ianity and Sikhism especially. I'm not sure about any
                                  > > Jewish influence though.
                                  > >
                                  > > I can look into this over the next few weeks because
                                  > > I know people familiar with Hindu religion in general.
                                  > > See if I can determine if a "THE MASTER" paradigm
                                  > > existed in ancient Indian religion.
                                  > >
                                  > > Etznab
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Tue, Apr 6, 2010 7:00 am
                                  > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                  Greater. Maybe.
                                  > > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                  > >
                                  > >  
                                  > > Leaf,
                                  > >
                                  > > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized
                                  that people
                                  > > should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he
                                  didn't want
                                  > > to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is
                                  the
                                  > > impression that I got.
                                  > >
                                  > > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post
                                  them
                                  > > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message
                                  board. I don't
                                  > > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from
                                  someone who
                                  > > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that
                                  you may have
                                  > > already posted this.
                                  > >
                                  > > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                  Eckankar I
                                  > > obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                  concern myself
                                  > > with the question. I believe that each of us is our own
                                  master, meaning
                                  > > we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody
                                  else is.
                                  > > When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting
                                  like they can
                                  > > advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is
                                  when I have
                                  > > a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs
                                  could have
                                  > > simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking
                                  care of
                                  > > your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves
                                  as their
                                  > > own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think
                                  any of the
                                  > > LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers.
                                  It's all a
                                  > > moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned
                                  with my own
                                  > > spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                  > >
                                  > > Jonathan
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                                  > > tianyue@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Jonathan,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you
                                  have that
                                  > > Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                  think of
                                  > > "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I
                                  just have to
                                  > > say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your
                                  assumption
                                  > > is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression
                                  about
                                  > > Twitchell?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as
                                  Klemp, and the
                                  > > worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                  today's
                                  > > eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the
                                  org, PT was
                                  > > highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size
                                  wall
                                  > > posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum.
                                  People
                                  > > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would
                                  stand in
                                  > > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan"
                                  and to
                                  > > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity,
                                  and would
                                  > > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you
                                  feel the
                                  > > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful
                                  and
                                  > > omniscient, capable of anything.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or
                                  was
                                  > > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by
                                  inner
                                  > > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                  doubt.
                                  > > Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                  principles,
                                  > > beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible
                                  for all
                                  > > those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time,
                                  He must
                                  > > overlook and see that those in the churches and various
                                  faiths are also
                                  > > taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at
                                  the major
                                  > > disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as
                                  part of
                                  > > His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race.
                                  Not only
                                  > > does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human
                                  race on
                                  > > earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of
                                  life on other
                                  > > planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within
                                  the
                                  > > psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                  planes of
                                  > > god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted
                                  at times
                                  > > and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever
                                  in the
                                  > > Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest
                                  His heart,
                                  > > and the populations of the various worlds, planes and
                                  universes.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the
                                  world savior,
                                  > > but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                  planes, and
                                  > > the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God.
                                  This is
                                  > > not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
                                  spiritual
                                  > > body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                  spiritual body
                                  > > of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
                                  Itself, and
                                  > > because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
                                  essence which
                                  > > flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is
                                  IT. This is
                                  > > the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the
                                  creative
                                  > > function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every
                                  man,
                                  > > creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                  life. His
                                  > > physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                  through which
                                  > > the ECK flows. "
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                  > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Harrison,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are
                                  in charge
                                  > > of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other
                                  words, nobody
                                  > > else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility
                                  to someone
                                  > > else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because
                                  YOU are
                                  > > the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                  already
                                  > > told you,
                                  > > > > when you realize that you are your own master
                                  you're not
                                  > > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better
                                  than
                                  > > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with
                                  you that
                                  > > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I
                                  understand
                                  > > why you have major problems with it.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                  response,
                                  > > none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego.
                                  They
                                  > > didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the
                                  least. There
                                  > > was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was
                                  reported to have
                                  > > said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question."
                                  The Eck
                                  > > master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask
                                  your
                                  > > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme
                                  worship of
                                  > > masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is
                                  easy to see
                                  > > how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried
                                  to tone
                                  > > down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become
                                  more
                                  > > egotistical.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am
                                  God
                                  > > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start
                                  worshiping
                                  > > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God
                                  realized" and
                                  > > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed
                                  the test"
                                  > > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The people who realize that they are their own
                                  master
                                  > > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on
                                  their own
                                  > > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who
                                  have "passed
                                  > > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of
                                  looking at
                                  > > things.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Jonathan
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                  harrisonferrel
                                  > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a
                                  person,
                                  > > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but
                                  your reply
                                  > > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge
                                  or
                                  > > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the
                                  same
                                  > > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar �
                                  assumptions and
                                  > > rationalization.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are
                                  blue in
                                  > > the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses
                                  based on no
                                  > > good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that
                                  the mind
                                  > > gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not,
                                  there is no
                                  > > reason to read into these images anything more than the
                                  workings of the
                                  > > imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes
                                  a cigar
                                  > > in your dream is just a cigar."
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything
                                  close to a
                                  > > master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he
                                  or she is a
                                  > > master. This word, master, is used without care or respect.
                                  It has
                                  > > little meaning in the West.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of
                                  images and
                                  > > scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                  analogy, I
                                  > > can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If
                                  you want
                                  > > to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                  message, then
                                  > > you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up
                                  your
                                  > > claims.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the
                                  time I read
                                  > > it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                  something
                                  > > valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very
                                  good or
                                  > > helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more
                                  out of
                                  > > Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with
                                  this forum,
                                  > > because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and
                                  visions, you
                                  > > simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you
                                  don't know
                                  > > the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                  > > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis
                                  based on a
                                  > > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong
                                  to do. It's
                                  > > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess
                                  that he was
                                  > > "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                  klemp's
                                  > > program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                  candidate to work
                                  > > the lunacy pedals.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                  experiences,
                                  > > especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But
                                  equally
                                  > > ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or
                                  "experiences"
                                  > > without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post,
                                  without
                                  > > exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people
                                  of their
                                  > > critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                  jonathanjohns96
                                  > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Harrison,
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were
                                  real. And I
                                  > > believe that they were just for you. They were almost
                                  certainly telling
                                  > > you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford
                                  Johnson
                                  > > emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only
                                  because a lot of
                                  > > people are familiar with him, but many people have not had
                                  the time to
                                  > > read his book.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > So getting back to your inner
                                  experiences. They
                                  > > were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this
                                  type of
                                  > > inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it
                                  mildly). So
                                  > > what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for
                                  you only)
                                  > > were telling you that were you were getting close to the time
                                  when you
                                  > > were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about
                                  one thing.
                                  > > Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are
                                  your own
                                  > > master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1)
                                  think that
                                  > > you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It
                                  was just
                                  > > telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny
                                  and (2) you
                                  > > don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                  about you
                                  > > specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                  hand-picked
                                  > > by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                  experiences,
                                  > > plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The
                                  problem, as you
                                  > > evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are
                                  nothing
                                  > > like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you
                                  ask the
                                  > > local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either.
                                  And
                                  > > asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the
                                  worst idea
                                  > > of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit
                                  of all of
                                  > > us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what
                                  Eckankar
                                  > > said they should be.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I still remember something that I read on
                                  the
                                  > > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a
                                  story about
                                  > > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and
                                  promptly left
                                  > > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the
                                  emphatically put it,
                                  > > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how
                                  the
                                  > > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for
                                  you there.
                                  > > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                  contrary
                                  > > to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they
                                  do, there
                                  > > is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is
                                  actually a
                                  > > major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is
                                  rarely
                                  > > discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people
                                  are
                                  > > embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not
                                  specifically
                                  > > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about
                                  possible
                                  > > reasons.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the
                                  books in
                                  > > Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner
                                  experiences made
                                  > > me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone
                                  Of God."
                                  > > I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck
                                  book. I
                                  > > later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
                                  another
                                  > > example of somebody having different experiences, and before
                                  you know
                                  > > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Jonathan
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                  > > harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was
                                  completely
                                  > > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the
                                  contents of
                                  > > my contemplations made me something superior to all human
                                  beings,
                                  > > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                  > > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain
                                  terms that
                                  > > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was
                                  on a
                                  > > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the
                                  major events
                                  > > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of
                                  thing?
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person,
                                  a
                                  > > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order
                                  of deranged
                                  > > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a
                                  little bell
                                  > > that made me question everything about eckankar and the
                                  deluded nutjob
                                  > > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose
                                  fantastic
                                  > > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
                                  un-believe-able.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > When you have experiences that show
                                  you to be
                                  > > downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick
                                  to tell
                                  > > you it's because you need the light or some other such crap.
                                  When you
                                  > > have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do
                                  with you.
                                  > > It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares
                                  them
                                  > > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's
                                  scary and
                                  > > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all
                                  other
                                  > > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy
                                  of much of
                                  > > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is
                                  just
                                  > > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do
                                  with any
                                  > > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind
                                  would want
                                  > > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon
                                  a
                                  > > satisfying answer.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell
                                  or
                                  > > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart
                                  mind. It
                                  > > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was
                                  amazed, years
                                  > > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I
                                  found a
                                  > > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
                                  subject
                                  > > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I
                                  thought.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with
                                  eckankar, I
                                  > > left and looked into just about every other possible
                                  explanation for
                                  > > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that
                                  eckankar, as
                                  > > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing
                                  definitions for old
                                  > > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced
                                  in the
                                  > > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
                                  people in
                                  > > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown
                                  innumerable
                                  > > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                  Buddhism
                                  > > and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                  imagination is
                                  > > not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor.
                                  But to the
                                  > > unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many
                                  cases)
                                  > > believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body
                                  > > experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold
                                  klemp had
                                  > > "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he
                                  would take
                                  > > them as real and allow them to merely boost his already
                                  distorted sense
                                  > > of self.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                  least,
                                  > > for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult
                                  with an
                                  > > earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become
                                  better people
                                  > > by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the
                                  diagnosis
                                  > > that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
                                  give to its
                                  > > members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat
                                  at the helm.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • tomleafeater
                                  Jonathan, One of Twitchell s tactics was to claim he stood for certain principles or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed such
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Apr 8, 2010
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                                    Jonathan,

                                    One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain principles or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed such things as "people should not worship the personality." But then he contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of the Universe.

                                    Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he referred to the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he is thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not the body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING, indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality) and on the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.

                                    He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive dissonance in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him, the man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on stage.

                                    Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth is, for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that title, and is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with that title.

                                    Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is built around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can either give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you out of eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can remove the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!

                                    It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this, but the evidence is blatantly clear.

                                    Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it for you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the chief personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative tactics aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The facts bear this out.

                                    Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim otherwise. And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this, because it is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't "concern yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where do you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon me if I say you seem a bit conflicted.

                                    But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're not ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the final decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the relationship, and realize it to be what it is: A fraud.

                                    Speaking for myself only,

                                    Leaf

                                    --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Leaf,
                                    >
                                    > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the impression that I got.
                                    >
                                    > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have already posted this.
                                    >
                                    > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our own master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment. Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment, that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like they are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look at themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I should be concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Jonathan,
                                    > >
                                    > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression about Twitchell?
                                    > >
                                    > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp, and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org, PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and omniscient, capable of anything.
                                    > >
                                    > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                    > >
                                    > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                    > >
                                    > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                                    > >
                                    > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "
                                    > >
                                    > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Harrison,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words, nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I already told you,
                                    > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand why you have major problems with it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego. They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least. There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test" because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The people who realize that they are their own master (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at things.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Jonathan
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person, because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and rationalization.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has little meaning in the West.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to back up your claims.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions, you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly. But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Harrison,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the time to read his book.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences. They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly). So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2) you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it, he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there. Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible reasons.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book. I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Jonathan
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings, including the masters and the living eck master. I was really something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a satisfying answer.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar, I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind, Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted sense of self.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat at the helm.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • etznab@aol.com
                                    Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit Reply All the first time I sent this. ******************************************************** Searching evolution for
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Apr 9, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                      the first time I sent this.

                                      ********************************************************

                                      Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                      as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                      myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                      prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                      of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                      word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                      by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)

                                      Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                      and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                      published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                      (respectively), I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)

                                      Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                      "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                      of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                      sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                      in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)

                                      The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                      the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                      used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                      and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                      1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                      1970, I believe.)

                                      So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                      "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                      And when did it first become associated with a person?"

                                      Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                      tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                      have been familiar with that term.

                                      I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                      to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                      Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?

                                      If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                      association with a person might have evolved for
                                      legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                      usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                      applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                      know who was the head of it.

                                      Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                      consciousness", or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                      evolved to become associated with one single
                                      person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                      the Eckankar organization exists at a time?

                                      If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                      well for history (IMO).

                                      Etznab

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: tomleafeater <tianyue@...>
                                      To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                      Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                      Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                       
                                      Jonathan,

                                      One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain principles
                                      or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed such
                                      things as "people should not worship the personality." But then he
                                      contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of the
                                      Universe.

                                      Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he referred to
                                      the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                      indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he is
                                      thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the Living
                                      Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not the
                                      body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                      Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                      indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality) and on
                                      the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.

                                      He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive dissonance
                                      in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him, the
                                      man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                      introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                      stage.

                                      Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth is,
                                      for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that title, and
                                      is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with that
                                      title.

                                      Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is built
                                      around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can either
                                      give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you out of
                                      eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                      personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can remove
                                      the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!

                                      It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this, but
                                      the evidence is blatantly clear.

                                      Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it for
                                      you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                      author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the chief
                                      personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative tactics
                                      aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                      facts bear this out.

                                      Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim otherwise.
                                      And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this, because it
                                      is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't "concern
                                      yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where do
                                      you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon me if
                                      I say you seem a bit conflicted.

                                      But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're not
                                      ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the final
                                      decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the relationship, and
                                      realize it to be what it is: A fraud.

                                      Speaking for myself only,

                                      Leaf

                                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                      <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Leaf,
                                      >
                                      > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that
                                      people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't
                                      want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                                      impression that I got.
                                      >
                                      > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                                      because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                                      know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                                      was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                                      already posted this.
                                      >
                                      > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                      Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                      concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our own
                                      master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment.
                                      Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                      acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment,
                                      that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the
                                      other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like they
                                      are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look at
                                      themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                      don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their
                                      followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I should be
                                      concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                      >
                                      > Jonathan
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                                      <tianyue@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Jonathan,
                                      > >
                                      > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have
                                      that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                      think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I
                                      just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your
                                      assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression
                                      about Twitchell?
                                      > >
                                      > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp,
                                      and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                      today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org,
                                      PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size
                                      wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                                      practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                                      line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                      shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                                      gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                      shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                      omniscient, capable of anything.
                                      > >
                                      > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                                      enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                      masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                      > >
                                      > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                      doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                      > >
                                      > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                      principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible
                                      for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He
                                      must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are
                                      also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the
                                      major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as
                                      part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race.
                                      Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human
                                      race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life
                                      on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within
                                      the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                      planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted
                                      at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever
                                      in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His
                                      heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                                      > >
                                      > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world
                                      savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                      planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of
                                      God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
                                      spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                      spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
                                      Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
                                      essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He
                                      is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is
                                      the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every
                                      man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                      life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                      through which the ECK flows. "
                                      > >
                                      > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                      <no_reply@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Harrison,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in
                                      charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words,
                                      nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to
                                      someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because
                                      YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                      already told you,
                                      > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                                      supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                      others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                                      a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                                      why you have major problems with it.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                      response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego.
                                      They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least.
                                      There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to
                                      have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The
                                      Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                                      question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship
                                      of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to
                                      see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to
                                      tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                      egotistical.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                                      realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                                      the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                                      then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                                      because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                                      (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                                      without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                                      the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                                      things.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Jonathan
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                                      <no_reply@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                                      because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                                      sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                      ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                      nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                                      rationalization.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue
                                      in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on
                                      no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the
                                      mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there
                                      is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings
                                      of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a
                                      cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to
                                      a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is
                                      a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                                      little meaning in the West.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images
                                      and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                      analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If
                                      you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                      message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to
                                      back up your claims.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I
                                      read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                      something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very
                                      good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out
                                      of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                      forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions,
                                      you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't
                                      know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                      psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                                      single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                                      not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that
                                      he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                      klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                      candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                      experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly.
                                      But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or
                                      "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original
                                      post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of
                                      their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                      jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Harrison,
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And
                                      I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                      telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford
                                      Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because
                                      a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the
                                      time to read his book.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences.
                                      They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type
                                      of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly).
                                      So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                      only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time
                                      when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one
                                      thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your
                                      own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think
                                      that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was
                                      just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2)
                                      you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                      about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                      hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                      experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The
                                      problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                      experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than
                                      that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no
                                      clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is
                                      the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the
                                      benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't
                                      match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                                      Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                                      how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                                      his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                                      he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                      exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                                      Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                      contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they
                                      do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is
                                      actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is
                                      rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people
                                      are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                                      talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                      reasons.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books
                                      in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences
                                      made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of
                                      God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book.
                                      I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                                      example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                                      it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Jonathan
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                      harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                                      amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                                      my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                      including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                      something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                                      the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                      throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                                      in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                                      narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                                      characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                                      that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                                      pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                      rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you
                                      to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to
                                      tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When
                                      you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with
                                      you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                                      because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                      threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                                      dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                                      my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                      nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                                      sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                                      to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                      satisfying answer.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                                      morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                                      has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                                      ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                      couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                      matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar,
                                      I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                                      what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                                      a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                                      words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                                      writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                                      this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                                      plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                      Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                      imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                      metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in
                                      too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out
                                      of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp
                                      had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would
                                      take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted
                                      sense of self.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                      least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with
                                      an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better
                                      people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the
                                      diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
                                      give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat
                                      at the helm.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • etznab@aol.com
                                      I don t find the term mahanta used by Eckankar prior to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Apr 9, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                        to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                        Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?

                                        The large caps trademarked term MAHANTA appears
                                        to be first used in 1969.

                                        http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=4003:h2lac.2.1

                                        If you go to this page

                                        http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=search&state=4003:h2lac.1.1

                                        and search for the word ECKANKAR it will bring up a list
                                        of ECK Terms. Then by clicking on the serial number you
                                        can see when that item was first used.

                                        Etznab

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: etznab@...
                                        To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 12:00 pm
                                        Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                        Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                         
                                        Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                        the first time I sent this.

                                        ********************************************************

                                        Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                        as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                        myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                        prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                        of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                        word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                        by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)

                                        Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                        and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                        published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                        (respectively), I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)

                                        Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                        "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                        of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                        sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                        in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)

                                        The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                        the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                        used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                        and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                        1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                        1970, I believe.)

                                        So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                        "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                        And when did it first become associated with a person?"

                                        Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                        tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                        have been familiar with that term.

                                        I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                        to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                        Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?

                                        If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                        association with a person might have evolved for
                                        legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                        usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                        applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                        know who was the head of it.

                                        Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                        consciousness", or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                        evolved to become associated with one single
                                        person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                        the Eckankar organization exists at a time?

                                        If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                        well for history (IMO).

                                        Etznab

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: tomleafeater <tianyue@...>
                                        To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                        Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                        Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                         
                                        Jonathan,

                                        One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain principles
                                        or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed such
                                        things as "people should not worship the personality." But then he
                                        contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of the
                                        Universe.

                                        Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he referred to
                                        the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                        indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he is
                                        thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the Living
                                        Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not the
                                        body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                        Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                        indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality) and on
                                        the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.

                                        He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive dissonance
                                        in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him, the
                                        man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                        introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                        stage.

                                        Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth is,
                                        for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that title, and
                                        is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with that
                                        title.

                                        Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is built
                                        around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can either
                                        give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you out of
                                        eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                        personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can remove
                                        the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!

                                        It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this, but
                                        the evidence is blatantly clear.

                                        Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it for
                                        you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                        author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the chief
                                        personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative tactics
                                        aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                        facts bear this out.

                                        Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim otherwise.
                                        And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this, because it
                                        is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't "concern
                                        yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where do
                                        you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon me if
                                        I say you seem a bit conflicted.

                                        But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're not
                                        ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the final
                                        decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the relationship, and
                                        realize it to be what it is: A fraud.

                                        Speaking for myself only,

                                        Leaf

                                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                        <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Leaf,
                                        >
                                        > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that
                                        people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't
                                        want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                                        impression that I got.
                                        >
                                        > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                                        because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                                        know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                                        was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                                        already posted this.
                                        >
                                        > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                        Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                        concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our own
                                        master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment.
                                        Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                        acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment,
                                        that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the
                                        other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like they
                                        are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look at
                                        themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                        don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their
                                        followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I should be
                                        concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                        >
                                        > Jonathan
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                                        <tianyue@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Jonathan,
                                        > >
                                        > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have
                                        that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                        think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I
                                        just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your
                                        assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression
                                        about Twitchell?
                                        > >
                                        > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp,
                                        and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                        today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org,
                                        PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size
                                        wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                                        practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                                        line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                        shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                                        gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                        shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                        omniscient, capable of anything.
                                        > >
                                        > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                                        enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                        masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                        > >
                                        > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                        doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                        > >
                                        > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                        principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible
                                        for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He
                                        must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are
                                        also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the
                                        major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as
                                        part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race.
                                        Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human
                                        race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life
                                        on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within
                                        the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                        planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted
                                        at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever
                                        in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His
                                        heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                                        > >
                                        > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world
                                        savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                        planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of
                                        God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
                                        spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                        spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
                                        Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
                                        essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He
                                        is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is
                                        the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every
                                        man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                        life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                        through which the ECK flows. "
                                        > >
                                        > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                        <no_reply@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Harrison,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in
                                        charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words,
                                        nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to
                                        someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because
                                        YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                        already told you,
                                        > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                                        supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                        others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                                        a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                                        why you have major problems with it.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                        response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego.
                                        They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least.
                                        There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to
                                        have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The
                                        Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                                        question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship
                                        of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to
                                        see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to
                                        tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                        egotistical.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                                        realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                                        the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                                        then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                                        because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                                        (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                                        without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                                        the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                                        things.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Jonathan
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                                        <no_reply@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                                        because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                                        sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                        ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                        nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                                        rationalization.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue
                                        in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on
                                        no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the
                                        mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there
                                        is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings
                                        of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a
                                        cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to
                                        a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is
                                        a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                                        little meaning in the West.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images
                                        and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                        analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If
                                        you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                        message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to
                                        back up your claims.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I
                                        read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                        something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very
                                        good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out
                                        of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                        forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions,
                                        you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't
                                        know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                        psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                                        single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                                        not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that
                                        he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                        klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                        candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                        experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly.
                                        But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or
                                        "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original
                                        post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of
                                        their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                        jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Harrison,
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And
                                        I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                        telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford
                                        Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because
                                        a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the
                                        time to read his book.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences.
                                        They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type
                                        of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly).
                                        So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                        only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time
                                        when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one
                                        thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your
                                        own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think
                                        that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was
                                        just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2)
                                        you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                        about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                        hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                        experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The
                                        problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                        experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than
                                        that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no
                                        clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is
                                        the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the
                                        benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't
                                        match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                                        Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                                        how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                                        his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                                        he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                        exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                                        Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                        contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they
                                        do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is
                                        actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is
                                        rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people
                                        are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                                        talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                        reasons.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books
                                        in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences
                                        made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of
                                        God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book.
                                        I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                                        example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                                        it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Jonathan
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                        harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                                        amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                                        my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                        including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                        something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                                        the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                        throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                                        in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                                        narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                                        characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                                        that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                                        pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                        rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you
                                        to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to
                                        tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When
                                        you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with
                                        you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                                        because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                        threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                                        dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                                        my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                        nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                                        sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                                        to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                        satisfying answer.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                                        morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                                        has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                                        ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                        couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                        matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar,
                                        I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                                        what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                                        a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                                        words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                                        writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                                        this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                                        plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                        Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                        imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                        metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in
                                        too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out
                                        of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp
                                        had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would
                                        take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted
                                        sense of self.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                        least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with
                                        an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better
                                        people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the
                                        diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
                                        give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat
                                        at the helm.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • etznab@aol.com
                                        More information on this link. http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=73636002 ... From: etznab@aol.com To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Apr 9, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          More information on this link.

                                          http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=73636002

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: etznab@...
                                          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 4:49 pm
                                          Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                          Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                           

                                          I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                          to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                          Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?

                                          The large caps trademarked term MAHANTA appears
                                          to be first used in 1969.

                                          http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=doc&state=4003:h2lac.2.1

                                          If you go to this page

                                          http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=search&state=4003:h2lac.1.1

                                          and search for the word ECKANKAR it will bring up a list
                                          of ECK Terms. Then by clicking on the serial number you
                                          can see when that item was first used.

                                          Etznab

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: etznab@...
                                          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Fri, Apr 9, 2010 12:00 pm
                                          Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                          Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                           
                                          Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                          the first time I sent this.

                                          ********************************************************

                                          Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                          as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                          myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                          prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                          of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                          word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                          by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)

                                          Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                          and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                          published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                          (respectively), I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)

                                          Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                          "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                          of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                          sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                          in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)

                                          The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                          the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                          used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                          and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                          1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                          1970, I believe.)

                                          So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                          "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                          And when did it first become associated with a person?"

                                          Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                          tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                          have been familiar with that term.

                                          I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                          to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                          Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?

                                          If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                          association with a person might have evolved for
                                          legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                          usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                          applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                          know who was the head of it.

                                          Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                          consciousness", or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                          evolved to become associated with one single
                                          person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                          the Eckankar organization exists at a time?

                                          If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                          well for history (IMO).

                                          Etznab

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: tomleafeater <tianyue@...>
                                          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                          Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                          Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                           
                                          Jonathan,

                                          One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain principles
                                          or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed such
                                          things as "people should not worship the personality." But then he
                                          contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of the
                                          Universe.

                                          Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he referred to
                                          the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                          indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he is
                                          thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the Living
                                          Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not the
                                          body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                          Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                          indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality) and on
                                          the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.

                                          He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive dissonance
                                          in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him, the
                                          man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                          introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                          stage.

                                          Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth is,
                                          for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that title, and
                                          is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with that
                                          title.

                                          Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is built
                                          around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can either
                                          give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you out of
                                          eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                          personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can remove
                                          the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!

                                          It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this, but
                                          the evidence is blatantly clear.

                                          Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it for
                                          you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                          author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the chief
                                          personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative tactics
                                          aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                          facts bear this out.

                                          Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim otherwise.
                                          And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this, because it
                                          is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't "concern
                                          yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where do
                                          you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon me if
                                          I say you seem a bit conflicted.

                                          But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're not
                                          ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the final
                                          decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the relationship, and
                                          realize it to be what it is: A fraud.

                                          Speaking for myself only,

                                          Leaf

                                          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                          <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Leaf,
                                          >
                                          > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that
                                          people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't
                                          want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                                          impression that I got.
                                          >
                                          > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                                          because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                                          know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                                          was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                                          already posted this.
                                          >
                                          > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                          Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                          concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our own
                                          master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment.
                                          Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                          acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment,
                                          that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the
                                          other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like they
                                          are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look at
                                          themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                          don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their
                                          followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I should be
                                          concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                          >
                                          > Jonathan
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                                          <tianyue@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Jonathan,
                                          > >
                                          > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have
                                          that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                          think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical," I
                                          just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your
                                          assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression
                                          about Twitchell?
                                          > >
                                          > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp,
                                          and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                          today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org,
                                          PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size
                                          wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                                          practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                                          line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                          shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                                          gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                          shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                          omniscient, capable of anything.
                                          > >
                                          > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                                          enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                          masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                          > >
                                          > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                          doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                          > >
                                          > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                          principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible
                                          for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He
                                          must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are
                                          also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the
                                          major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as
                                          part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race.
                                          Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human
                                          race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life
                                          on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within
                                          the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                          planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted
                                          at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever
                                          in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His
                                          heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                                          > >
                                          > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world
                                          savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                          planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of
                                          God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
                                          spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                          spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
                                          Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
                                          essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He
                                          is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is
                                          the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every
                                          man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                          life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                          through which the ECK flows. "
                                          > >
                                          > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, jonathanjohns96
                                          <no_reply@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Harrison,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in
                                          charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words,
                                          nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to
                                          someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because
                                          YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                          already told you,
                                          > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                                          supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                          others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                                          a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                                          why you have major problems with it.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                          response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego.
                                          They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least.
                                          There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to
                                          have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The
                                          Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                                          question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship
                                          of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to
                                          see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to
                                          tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                          egotistical.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                                          realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                                          the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                                          then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                                          because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                                          (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                                          without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                                          the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                                          things.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Jonathan
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, harrisonferrel
                                          <no_reply@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                                          because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                                          sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                          ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                          nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                                          rationalization.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue
                                          in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on
                                          no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the
                                          mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there
                                          is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings
                                          of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a
                                          cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to
                                          a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is
                                          a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                                          little meaning in the West.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images
                                          and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                          analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If
                                          you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                          message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to

                                          back up your claims.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I
                                          read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                          something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very
                                          good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out
                                          of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                          forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions,
                                          you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't
                                          know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                          psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                                          single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                                          not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that
                                          he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                          klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                          candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                          experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly.
                                          But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or
                                          "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original
                                          post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of
                                          their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                          jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@> wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Harrison,
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And
                                          I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                          telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford
                                          Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because
                                          a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the
                                          time to read his book.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences.
                                          They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type
                                          of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly).
                                          So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                          only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time
                                          when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one
                                          thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your
                                          own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think
                                          that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was
                                          just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2)
                                          you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                          about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                          hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                          experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The
                                          problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                          experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than
                                          that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no
                                          clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is
                                          the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the
                                          benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't
                                          match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                                          Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                                          how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                                          his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                                          he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                          exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                                          Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                          contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they
                                          do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is
                                          actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is
                                          rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people
                                          are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                                          talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                          reasons.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books
                                          in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences
                                          made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of
                                          God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book.
                                          I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                                          example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                                          it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Jonathan
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                                          harrisonferrel <no_reply@> wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                                          amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                                          my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                          including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                          something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                                          the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                          throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                                          in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                                          narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                                          characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                                          that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                                          pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                          rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you
                                          to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to
                                          tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When
                                          you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with
                                          you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                                          because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                          threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                                          dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                                          my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                          nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                                          sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                                          to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                          satisfying answer.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                                          morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                                          has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                                          ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                          couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                          matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar,
                                          I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                                          what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                                          a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                                          words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                                          writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                                          this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                                          plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                          Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                          imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                          metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in
                                          too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out
                                          of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp
                                          had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would
                                          take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted
                                          sense of self.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                          least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with
                                          an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better
                                          people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the
                                          diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
                                          give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat
                                          at the helm.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • thomas lee
                                          Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order to create new terms for his new religion. He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Apr 9, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order to create new terms for his new religion.
                                            He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma.    The word Mahatma means great soul.   It was used by Theosophy to describe a highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of individuals.  A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master. 


                                            From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
                                            To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                             

                                            Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                            the first time I sent this.

                                            ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********

                                            Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                            as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                            myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                            prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                            of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                            word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                            by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)

                                            Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                            and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                            published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                            (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)

                                            Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                            "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                            of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                            sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                            in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)

                                            The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                            the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                            used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                            and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                            1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                            1970, I believe.)

                                            So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                            "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                            And when did it first become associated with a person?"

                                            Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                            tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                            have been familiar with that term.

                                            I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                            to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                            Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?

                                            If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                            association with a person might have evolved for
                                            legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                            usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                            applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                            know who was the head of it.

                                            Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                            consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                            evolved to become associated with one single
                                            person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                            the Eckankar organization exists at a time?

                                            If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                            well for history (IMO).

                                            Etznab

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: tomleafeater <tianyue@earthlink. net>
                                            To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                            Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                            Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                            Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                             
                                            Jonathan,

                                            One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain principles
                                            or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed such
                                            things as "people should not worship the personality. " But then he
                                            contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of the
                                            Universe.

                                            Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he referred to
                                            the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                            indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he is
                                            thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the Living
                                            Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not the
                                            body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                            Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                            indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality) and on
                                            the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.

                                            He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive dissonance
                                            in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him, the
                                            man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                            introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                            stage.

                                            Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth is,
                                            for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that title, and
                                            is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with that
                                            title.

                                            Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is built
                                            around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can either
                                            give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you out of
                                            eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                            personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can remove
                                            the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!

                                            It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this, but
                                            the evidence is blatantly clear.

                                            Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it for
                                            you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                            author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the chief
                                            personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative tactics
                                            aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                            facts bear this out.

                                            Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim otherwise.
                                            And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this, because it
                                            is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't "concern
                                            yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where do
                                            you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon me if
                                            I say you seem a bit conflicted.

                                            But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're not
                                            ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the final
                                            decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the relationship, and
                                            realize it to be what it is: A fraud.

                                            Speaking for myself only,

                                            Leaf

                                            --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                            &lt;no_reply@ ...&gt; wrote:
                                            &gt;
                                            &gt; Leaf,
                                            &gt;
                                            &gt; I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that
                                            people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't
                                            want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                                            impression that I got.
                                            &gt;
                                            &gt; If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                                            because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                                            know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                                            was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                                            already posted this.
                                            &gt;
                                            &gt; As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                            Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                            concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our own
                                            master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment.
                                            Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                            acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment,
                                            that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the
                                            other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like they
                                            are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look at
                                            themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                            don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their
                                            followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I should be
                                            concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                            &gt;
                                            &gt; Jonathan
                                            &gt;
                                            &gt;
                                            &gt;
                                            &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                            &lt;tianyue@ &gt; wrote:
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; Jonathan,
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have
                                            that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                            think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical, " I
                                            just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your
                                            assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression
                                            about Twitchell?
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp,
                                            and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                            today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org,
                                            PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size
                                            wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                                            practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                                            line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                            shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                                            gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                            shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                            omniscient, capable of anything.
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                                            enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                            masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                            doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                            principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible
                                            for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He
                                            must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are
                                            also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the
                                            major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as
                                            part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race.
                                            Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human
                                            race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life
                                            on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within
                                            the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                            planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted
                                            at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever
                                            in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His
                                            heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world
                                            savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                            planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of
                                            God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
                                            spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                            spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
                                            Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
                                            essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He
                                            is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is
                                            the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every
                                            man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                            life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                            through which the ECK flows. "
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                            &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; Harrison,
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in
                                            charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words,
                                            nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to
                                            someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because
                                            YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                            already told you,
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                                            supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                            others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                                            a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                                            why you have major problems with it.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                            response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego.
                                            They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least.
                                            There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to
                                            have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The
                                            Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                                            question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship
                                            of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to
                                            see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to
                                            tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                            egotistical.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                                            realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                                            the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                                            then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                                            because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; The people who realize that they are their own master
                                            (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                                            without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                                            the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                                            things.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, harrisonferrel
                                            &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                                            because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                                            sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                            ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                            nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                                            rationalization.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue
                                            in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on
                                            no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the
                                            mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there
                                            is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings
                                            of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a
                                            cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I am not a master of anything or anything close to
                                            a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is
                                            a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                                            little meaning in the West.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images
                                            and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                            analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If
                                            you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                            message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to
                                            back up your claims.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I
                                            read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                            something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very
                                            good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out
                                            of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                            forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From your analysis of my experiences and visions,
                                            you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't
                                            know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                            psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                                            single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                                            not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that
                                            he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                            klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                            candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                            experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly.
                                            But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or
                                            "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original
                                            post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of
                                            their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                            jonathanjohns96 &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Harrison,
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I believe you inner experiences were real. And
                                            I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                            telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford
                                            Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because
                                            a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the
                                            time to read his book.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So getting back to your inner experiences.
                                            They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type
                                            of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly).
                                            So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                            only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time
                                            when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one
                                            thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your
                                            own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think
                                            that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was
                                            just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2)
                                            you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From this point on I am no longer talking
                                            about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                            hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                            experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The
                                            problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                            experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than
                                            that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no
                                            clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is
                                            the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the
                                            benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't
                                            match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I still remember something that I read on the
                                            Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                                            how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                                            his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                                            he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                            exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                                            Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So lots of people have inner experiences
                                            contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they
                                            do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is
                                            actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is
                                            rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people
                                            are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                                            talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                            reasons.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I once told a fellow member that all the books
                                            in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences
                                            made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of
                                            God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book.
                                            I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                                            example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                                            it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                            harrisonferrel &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                                            amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                                            my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                            including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                            something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                                            the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                            throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                                            in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                                            narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                                            characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                                            that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                                            pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                            rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When you have experiences that show you
                                            to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to
                                            tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When
                                            you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with
                                            you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                                            because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                            threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I've come to see past lives and all other
                                            dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                                            my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                            nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                                            sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                                            to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                            satisfying answer.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                                            morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                                            has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                                            ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                            couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                            matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Following my 12 year stint with eckankar,
                                            I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                                            what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                                            a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                                            words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                                            writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                                            this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                                            plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Serious delving into the human mind,
                                            Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                            imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                            metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in
                                            too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out
                                            of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I can only imagine that if harold klemp
                                            had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would
                                            take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted
                                            sense of self.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                            least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with
                                            an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better
                                            people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the
                                            diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
                                            give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat
                                            at the helm.
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt; &gt;
                                            &gt;


                                          • yoga_nidra
                                            ... Twitchell didn t coin the term mahanta, as it s a sanskrit word that means grand. Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism, though Twitchell s use
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Apr 16, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order to create new terms for his new religion.
                                              > He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma. The word Mahatma means great soul. It was used by Theosophy to describe a highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of individuals. A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master.

                                              Twitchell didn't coin the term "mahanta," as it's a sanskrit word that means "grand." Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism, though Twitchell's use of the term as Grand Poobah of the Universe is something he himself came up with.

                                              Mahanta can also be a name.

                                              http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Mahanta.html

                                              Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta? Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters, a book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with.

                                              http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=9297157


                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
                                              > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                              > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                              > the first time I sent this.
                                              >
                                              > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                                              >
                                              > Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                              > as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                              > myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                              > prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                              > of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                              > word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                              > by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)
                                              >
                                              > Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                              > and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                              > published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                              > (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)
                                              >
                                              > Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                              > "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                              > of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                              > sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                              > in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)
                                              >
                                              > The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                              > the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                              > used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                              > and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                              > 1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                              > 1970, I believe.)
                                              >
                                              > So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                              > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                              > And when did it first become associated with a person?"
                                              >
                                              > Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                              > tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                              > have been familiar with that term.
                                              >
                                              > I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                              > to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                              > Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                              >
                                              > If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                              > association with a person might have evolved for
                                              > legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                              > usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                              > applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                              > know who was the head of it.
                                              >
                                              > Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                              > consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                              > evolved to become associated with one single
                                              > person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                              > the Eckankar organization exists at a time?
                                              >
                                              > If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                              > well for history (IMO).
                                              >
                                              > Etznab
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@earthlink. net>
                                              > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                              > Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                              > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                              > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Jonathan,
                                              >
                                              > One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain principles
                                              > or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed such
                                              > things as "people should not worship the personality. " But then he
                                              > contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of the
                                              > Universe.
                                              >
                                              > Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he referred to
                                              > the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                              > indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he is
                                              > thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the Living
                                              > Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not the
                                              > body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                              > Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                              > indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality) and on
                                              > the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.
                                              >
                                              > He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive dissonance
                                              > in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him, the
                                              > man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                              > introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                              > stage.
                                              >
                                              > Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth is,
                                              > for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that title, and
                                              > is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with that
                                              > title.
                                              >
                                              > Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is built
                                              > around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can either
                                              > give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you out of
                                              > eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                              > personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can remove
                                              > the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!
                                              >
                                              > It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this, but
                                              > the evidence is blatantly clear.
                                              >
                                              > Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it for
                                              > you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                              > author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the chief
                                              > personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative tactics
                                              > aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                              > facts bear this out.
                                              >
                                              > Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim otherwise.
                                              > And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this, because it
                                              > is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't "concern
                                              > yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where do
                                              > you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon me if
                                              > I say you seem a bit conflicted.
                                              >
                                              > But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're not
                                              > ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the final
                                              > decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the relationship, and
                                              > realize it to be what it is: A fraud.
                                              >
                                              > Speaking for myself only,
                                              >
                                              > Leaf
                                              >
                                              > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                              > <no_reply@ ...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Leaf,
                                              > >
                                              > > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that
                                              > people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't
                                              > want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                                              > impression that I got.
                                              > >
                                              > > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                                              > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                                              > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                                              > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                                              > already posted this.
                                              > >
                                              > > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                              > Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                              > concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our own
                                              > master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment.
                                              > Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                              > acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment,
                                              > that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the
                                              > other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like they
                                              > are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look at
                                              > themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                              > don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their
                                              > followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I should be
                                              > concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                              > >
                                              > > Jonathan
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                              > <tianyue@ > wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Jonathan,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have
                                              > that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                              > think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical, " I
                                              > just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your
                                              > assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression
                                              > about Twitchell?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp,
                                              > and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                              > today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org,
                                              > PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size
                                              > wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                                              > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                                              > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                              > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                                              > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                              > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                              > omniscient, capable of anything.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                                              > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                              > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                              > doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                              > principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible
                                              > for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He
                                              > must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are
                                              > also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the
                                              > major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as
                                              > part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race.
                                              > Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human
                                              > race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life
                                              > on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within
                                              > the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                              > planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted
                                              > at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever
                                              > in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His
                                              > heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world
                                              > savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                              > planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of
                                              > God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
                                              > spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                              > spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
                                              > Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
                                              > essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He
                                              > is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is
                                              > the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every
                                              > man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                              > life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                              > through which the ECK flows. "
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                              > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Harrison,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in
                                              > charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words,
                                              > nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to
                                              > someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because
                                              > YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                              > already told you,
                                              > > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                                              > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                              > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                                              > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                                              > why you have major problems with it.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                              > response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego.
                                              > They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least.
                                              > There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to
                                              > have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The
                                              > Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                                              > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship
                                              > of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to
                                              > see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to
                                              > tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                              > egotistical.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                                              > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                                              > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                                              > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                                              > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                                              > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                                              > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                                              > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                                              > things.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Jonathan
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, harrisonferrel
                                              > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                                              > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                                              > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                              > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                              > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                                              > rationalization.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue
                                              > in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on
                                              > no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the
                                              > mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there
                                              > is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings
                                              > of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a
                                              > cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to
                                              > a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is
                                              > a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                                              > little meaning in the West.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images
                                              > and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                              > analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If
                                              > you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                              > message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to
                                              > back up your claims.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I
                                              > read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                              > something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very
                                              > good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out
                                              > of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                              > forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions,
                                              > you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't
                                              > know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                              > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                                              > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                                              > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that
                                              > he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                              > klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                              > candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                              > experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly.
                                              > But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or
                                              > "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original
                                              > post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of
                                              > their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                              > jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Harrison,
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And
                                              > I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                              > telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford
                                              > Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because
                                              > a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the
                                              > time to read his book.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences.
                                              > They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type
                                              > of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly).
                                              > So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                              > only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time
                                              > when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one
                                              > thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your
                                              > own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think
                                              > that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was
                                              > just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2)
                                              > you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                              > about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                              > hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                              > experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The
                                              > problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                              > experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than
                                              > that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no
                                              > clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is
                                              > the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the
                                              > benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't
                                              > match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                                              > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                                              > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                                              > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                                              > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                              > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                                              > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                              > contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they
                                              > do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is
                                              > actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is
                                              > rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people
                                              > are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                                              > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                              > reasons.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books
                                              > in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences
                                              > made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of
                                              > God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book.
                                              > I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                                              > example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                                              > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Jonathan
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                              > harrisonferrel <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                                              > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                                              > my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                              > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                              > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                                              > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                              > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                                              > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                                              > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                                              > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                                              > that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                                              > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                              > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you
                                              > to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to
                                              > tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When
                                              > you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with
                                              > you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                                              > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                              > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                                              > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                                              > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                              > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                                              > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                                              > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                              > satisfying answer.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                                              > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                                              > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                                              > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                              > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                              > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar,
                                              > I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                                              > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                                              > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                                              > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                                              > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                                              > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                                              > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                              > Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                              > imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                              > metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in
                                              > too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out
                                              > of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp
                                              > had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would
                                              > take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted
                                              > sense of self.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                              > least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with
                                              > an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better
                                              > people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the
                                              > diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
                                              > give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat
                                              > at the helm.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • etznab@aol.com
                                              Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta? Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson s The Path of the Masters, a book Twitchell was
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Apr 16, 2010
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                "Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta?
                                                Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta
                                                is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                a book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with."

                                                A word in Julian Johnson's book is mahatma,
                                                not mahanta. I don't know that mahanta is in
                                                that book - The Path of the Masters.

                                                (If someone happens to find mahanta listed
                                                in POTM, please cite page number.)

                                                Here is something else to consider about the
                                                knowledge of Sanskrit familiar to Eckankar in
                                                its formative stages.

                                                A June 1980 letter by Louis Bluth has, in part:

                                                "[....] He [Paul Twitchell] borrowed my books
                                                on Radha Soami and copied a large share from
                                                them. I helped him write the Herb book and went
                                                to Riverside University and took Sanskrit, so
                                                basically much of the material is good because
                                                it is copied. [....]"

                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankarhistory/message/1434

                                                What this tells me is that Dr. Louis Bluth - the
                                                president of Eckankar in the early years - was
                                                familiar with Sanskrit. I think it was about 1966
                                                when Bluth met Paul Twitchell. I think L. Bluth
                                                was a former Radha Soami student of about 17
                                                years!

                                                "In a lecture by Bluth that I attended, Bluth stated
                                                that he followed Radhasoami for 17 years before he
                                                joined Eckankar. Bluth was an acupuncturist as well
                                                as an MD (a bit of trivia for you, Etznab.) He was
                                                rather full of himself, in my view. - Tianyue

                                                [Based on A.R.E. post 03/09/10]

                                                http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/9a1844ccb34936ef?hl=en#

                                                BTW. The appearance of "mahanta" in Eckankar
                                                publications apparently didn't surface until 1968,
                                                or 1969.

                                                In 1969 the word appeared in The Flute of God and
                                                in 1969 the large caps version appeared in Wisdom
                                                Notes.

                                                For some reason this word was chosen and then
                                                became popular around 1968 and 1969. And this
                                                was joined to the words "Living Eck Master".

                                                The Eckankar definition for "Mahanta" does not
                                                appear in The Path of the Masters far as I can
                                                tell. The large caps form of MAHANTA was trade-
                                                marked by Eckankar corporation probably in the
                                                later 60s.

                                                Chapter 3 of The Path of the Masters, by Julian
                                                Johnson (called: The Masters and Their Duties),
                                                on p. 178 has "The Masters themselves divide all
                                                mahatmas into four classes:"

                                                The classes are written in italics and are called:
                                                sikh, sadhu, sant, and param sant.

                                                Over on p. 179: it appears (to me) that Johnson
                                                used the words Satguru & param sant somewhat
                                                synomymously. So he doesn't appear to use the
                                                word Mahanta, but Mahatma. Eckankar decided
                                                to use the word Mahanta (instead of Mahatma) -
                                                it appears to me - in the title of it's leadership. It
                                                also coined a somewhat unique meaning for the
                                                word, in my opinion.

                                                The Eckankar Lexicon definition for Sat Guru
                                                has near the end; See also Living ECK Master;
                                                Mahanta. So regardless the word used, to me
                                                it looks like each group became partial to one
                                                term or another. Even when the meanings are
                                                generically (for the most part) the same - and
                                                used for a similar designation. I've seen in my
                                                research synonymous definitions spelled out
                                                for both mahatma and mahanta on some Web
                                                sites. So I wonder how similar they really are.

                                                Etznab

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: yoga_nidra <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                                To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 3:27 pm
                                                Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                                Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                                 


                                                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee
                                                <thomaslee40@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order to
                                                create new terms for his new religion.
                                                > He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma. The
                                                word Mahatma means great soul. It was used by Theosophy to describe a
                                                highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of
                                                individuals. A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master.

                                                Twitchell didn't coin the term "mahanta," as it's a sanskrit word that
                                                means "grand." Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism, though
                                                Twitchell's use of the term as Grand Poobah of the Universe is
                                                something he himself came up with.

                                                Mahanta can also be a name.

                                                http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Mahanta.html

                                                Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta? Most likely from Julian
                                                Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters, a
                                                book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with.

                                                http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=9297157

                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
                                                > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                                > the first time I sent this.
                                                >
                                                > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                                                >
                                                > Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                                > as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                                > myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                                > prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                                > of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                                > word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                                > by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)
                                                >
                                                > Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                                > and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                                > published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                                > (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)
                                                >
                                                > Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                                > "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                                > of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                                > sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                                > in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)
                                                >
                                                > The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                                > the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                                > used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                                > and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                                > 1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                                > 1970, I believe.)
                                                >
                                                > So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                                > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                                > And when did it first become associated with a person?"
                                                >
                                                > Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                                > tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                                > have been familiar with that term.
                                                >
                                                > I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                                > to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                                > Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                                >
                                                > If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                                > association with a person might have evolved for
                                                > legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                                > usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                                > applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                                > know who was the head of it.
                                                >
                                                > Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                                > consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                                > evolved to become associated with one single
                                                > person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                                > the Eckankar organization exists at a time?
                                                >
                                                > If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                                > well for history (IMO).
                                                >
                                                > Etznab
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@earthlink. net>
                                                > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                > Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                                > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                                Maybe.
                                                > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Jonathan,
                                                >
                                                > One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain
                                                principles
                                                > or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed
                                                such
                                                > things as "people should not worship the personality. " But then
                                                he
                                                > contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of
                                                the
                                                > Universe.
                                                >
                                                > Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he
                                                referred to
                                                > the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                                > indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he
                                                is
                                                > thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the
                                                Living
                                                > Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not
                                                the
                                                > body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                                > Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                                > indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality)
                                                and on
                                                > the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.
                                                >
                                                > He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive
                                                dissonance
                                                > in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him,
                                                the
                                                > man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                                > introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                                > stage.
                                                >
                                                > Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth
                                                is,
                                                > for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that
                                                title, and
                                                > is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with
                                                that
                                                > title.
                                                >
                                                > Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is
                                                built
                                                > around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can
                                                either
                                                > give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you
                                                out of
                                                > eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                                > personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can
                                                remove
                                                > the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!
                                                >
                                                > It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this,
                                                but
                                                > the evidence is blatantly clear.
                                                >
                                                > Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it
                                                for
                                                > you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                                > author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the
                                                chief
                                                > personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative
                                                tactics
                                                > aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                                > facts bear this out.
                                                >
                                                > Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim
                                                otherwise.
                                                > And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this,
                                                because it
                                                > is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't
                                                "concern
                                                > yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where
                                                do
                                                > you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon
                                                me if
                                                > I say you seem a bit conflicted.
                                                >
                                                > But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're
                                                not
                                                > ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the
                                                final
                                                > decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the
                                                relationship, and
                                                > realize it to be what it is: A fraud.
                                                >
                                                > Speaking for myself only,
                                                >
                                                > Leaf
                                                >
                                                > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                > <no_reply@ ...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Leaf,
                                                > >
                                                > > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized
                                                that
                                                > people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he
                                                didn't
                                                > want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is
                                                the
                                                > impression that I got.
                                                > >
                                                > > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post
                                                them
                                                > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I
                                                don't
                                                > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from
                                                someone who
                                                > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may
                                                have
                                                > already posted this.
                                                > >
                                                > > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                                > Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                                > concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our
                                                own
                                                > master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual
                                                unfoldment.
                                                > Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                                > acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal
                                                unfoldment,
                                                > that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all
                                                the
                                                > other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like
                                                they
                                                > are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look
                                                at
                                                > themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                                > don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than
                                                their
                                                > followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I
                                                should be
                                                > concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                                > >
                                                > > Jonathan
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                                > <tianyue@ > wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Jonathan,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you
                                                have
                                                > that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                                > think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical, "
                                                I
                                                > just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive,
                                                your
                                                > assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that
                                                impression
                                                > about Twitchell?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as
                                                Klemp,
                                                > and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                                > today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the
                                                org,
                                                > PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full
                                                size
                                                > wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum.
                                                People
                                                > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand
                                                in
                                                > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                                > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and
                                                would
                                                > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                                > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                                > omniscient, capable of anything.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or
                                                was
                                                > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                                > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                                > doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                                > principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is
                                                responsible
                                                > for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same
                                                time, He
                                                > must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
                                                faiths are
                                                > also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at
                                                the
                                                > major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind
                                                as
                                                > part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human
                                                race.
                                                > Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the
                                                human
                                                > race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of
                                                life
                                                > on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities
                                                within
                                                > the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                                > planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is
                                                light-hearted
                                                > at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is
                                                ever
                                                > in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest
                                                His
                                                > heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and
                                                universes.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the
                                                world
                                                > savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                                > planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds
                                                of
                                                > God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with,
                                                but the
                                                > spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                                > spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the
                                                ECK
                                                > Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the
                                                spiritual
                                                > essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and
                                                Mercy, He
                                                > is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which
                                                is
                                                > the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in
                                                every
                                                > man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                                > life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                                > through which the ECK flows. "
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Harrison,
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are
                                                in
                                                > charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other
                                                words,
                                                > nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility
                                                to
                                                > someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you
                                                because
                                                > YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                                > already told you,
                                                > > > > when you realize that you are your own master
                                                you're not
                                                > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                                > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you
                                                that
                                                > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I
                                                understand
                                                > why you have major problems with it.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                                > response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any
                                                ego.
                                                > They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the
                                                least.
                                                > There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was
                                                reported to
                                                > have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question."
                                                The
                                                > Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask
                                                your
                                                > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme
                                                worship
                                                > of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy
                                                to
                                                > see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried
                                                to
                                                > tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become
                                                more
                                                > egotistical.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am
                                                God
                                                > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start
                                                worshiping
                                                > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God
                                                realized" and
                                                > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the
                                                test"
                                                > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The people who realize that they are their own
                                                master
                                                > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their
                                                own
                                                > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have
                                                "passed
                                                > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking
                                                at
                                                > things.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Jonathan
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                harrisonferrel
                                                > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a
                                                person,
                                                > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your
                                                reply
                                                > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                                > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                                > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions
                                                and
                                                > rationalization.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are
                                                blue
                                                > in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses
                                                based on
                                                > no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that
                                                the
                                                > mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not,
                                                there
                                                > is no reason to read into these images anything more than the
                                                workings
                                                > of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase,
                                                "Sometimes a
                                                > cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything
                                                close to
                                                > a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or
                                                she is
                                                > a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It
                                                has
                                                > little meaning in the West.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of
                                                images
                                                > and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                                > analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a
                                                canvas. If
                                                > you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                                > message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence
                                                to
                                                > back up your claims.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the
                                                time I
                                                > read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                                > something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't
                                                very
                                                > good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far
                                                more out
                                                > of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                                > forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar
                                                overtones.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and
                                                visions,
                                                > you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you
                                                don't
                                                > know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                                > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on
                                                a
                                                > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do.
                                                It's
                                                > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess
                                                that
                                                > he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                                > klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                                > candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                                > experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer
                                                folly.
                                                > But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery
                                                or
                                                > "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my
                                                original
                                                > post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people
                                                of
                                                > their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of
                                                truth.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                > jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Harrison,
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were
                                                real. And
                                                > I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                                > telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that
                                                Ford
                                                > Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only
                                                because
                                                > a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not
                                                had the
                                                > time to read his book.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > So getting back to your inner
                                                experiences.
                                                > They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this
                                                type
                                                > of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it
                                                mildly).
                                                > So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                                > only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the
                                                time
                                                > when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you
                                                about one
                                                > thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are
                                                your
                                                > own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1)
                                                think
                                                > that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It
                                                was
                                                > just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny
                                                and (2)
                                                > you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                                > about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general
                                                discussion.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                                > hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                                > experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way.
                                                The
                                                > problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                                > experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse
                                                than
                                                > that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally
                                                have no
                                                > clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going
                                                on is
                                                > the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to
                                                the
                                                > benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that
                                                didn't
                                                > match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > I still remember something that I read on
                                                the
                                                > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story
                                                about
                                                > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly
                                                left
                                                > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put
                                                it,
                                                > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                                > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you
                                                there.
                                                > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                                > contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when
                                                they
                                                > do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think
                                                it is
                                                > actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it
                                                is
                                                > rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or
                                                people
                                                > are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not
                                                specifically
                                                > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                                > reasons.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the
                                                books
                                                > in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner
                                                experiences
                                                > made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone
                                                Of
                                                > God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck
                                                book.
                                                > I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
                                                another
                                                > example of somebody having different experiences, and before you
                                                know
                                                > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Jonathan
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                > harrisonferrel <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was
                                                completely
                                                > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the
                                                contents of
                                                > my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                                > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                                > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms
                                                that
                                                > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                                > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major
                                                events
                                                > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of
                                                thing?
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person,
                                                a
                                                > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of
                                                deranged
                                                > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little
                                                bell
                                                > that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded
                                                nutjob
                                                > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                                > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
                                                un-believe-able.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > When you have experiences that show
                                                you
                                                > to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are
                                                quick to
                                                > tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap.
                                                When
                                                > you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do
                                                with
                                                > you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares
                                                them
                                                > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                                > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all
                                                other
                                                > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of
                                                much of
                                                > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                                > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with
                                                any
                                                > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
                                                want
                                                > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                                > satisfying answer.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell
                                                or
                                                > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind.
                                                It
                                                > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed,
                                                years
                                                > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                                > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                                > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with
                                                eckankar,
                                                > I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation
                                                for
                                                > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that
                                                eckankar, as
                                                > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions
                                                for old
                                                > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in
                                                the
                                                > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people
                                                in
                                                > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown
                                                innumerable
                                                > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                                > Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                                > imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                                > metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging,
                                                (and in
                                                > too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories,"
                                                out
                                                > of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold
                                                klemp
                                                > had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he
                                                would
                                                > take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already
                                                distorted
                                                > sense of self.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                                > least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult
                                                with
                                                > an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become
                                                better
                                                > people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with
                                                the
                                                > diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good
                                                to
                                                > give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and
                                                cheat
                                                > at the helm.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • David Osborn
                                                Dear Tianyue,      That s quite an interesting bit of Eckankar history there!  And who knows what other juicy morsels could also be uncovered with a
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Apr 16, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Dear Tianyue,
                                                       That's quite an interesting bit of Eckankar history there!  And who knows what other juicy morsels could also be uncovered with a little digging and research.
                                                       I know that the word Mahanta sounds a lot like Mahatma, but I don't think that Paulji confused the two words.  You see, when I was doing some independent research on Kabir, who Eckankar claims to be in their lineage of Eck Masters, I ran across a little known sect called the Kabir Panthis, who were the followers of Kabir's teachings.  They called their guru or leader a Mahanta, which kind of means the head of the ashram.  I hope that that clarifies things a bit.
                                                                                                   Sincerely,
                                                                                                       David 

                                                  --- On Fri, 4/16/10, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                                                  From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                                                  Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                  To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Friday, April 16, 2010, 3:25 PM


                                                  "Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta?
                                                  Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta
                                                  is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                  a book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with."

                                                  A word in Julian Johnson's book is mahatma,
                                                  not mahanta. I don't know that mahanta is in
                                                  that book - The Path of the Masters.

                                                  (If someone happens to find mahanta listed
                                                  in POTM, please cite page number.)

                                                  Here is something else to consider about the
                                                  knowledge of Sanskrit familiar to Eckankar in
                                                  its formative stages.

                                                  A June 1980 letter by Louis Bluth has, in part:

                                                  "[....] He [Paul Twitchell] borrowed my books
                                                  on Radha Soami and copied a large share from
                                                  them. I helped him write the Herb book and went
                                                  to Riverside University and took Sanskrit, so
                                                  basically much of the material is good because
                                                  it is copied. [....]"

                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankarhistory/message/1434

                                                  What this tells me is that Dr. Louis Bluth - the
                                                  president of Eckankar in the early years - was
                                                  familiar with Sanskrit. I think it was about 1966
                                                  when Bluth met Paul Twitchell. I think L. Bluth
                                                  was a former Radha Soami student of about 17
                                                  years!

                                                  "In a lecture by Bluth that I attended, Bluth stated
                                                  that he followed Radhasoami for 17 years before he
                                                  joined Eckankar. Bluth was an acupuncturist as well
                                                  as an MD (a bit of trivia for you, Etznab.) He was
                                                  rather full of himself, in my view. - Tianyue

                                                  [Based on A.R.E. post 03/09/10]

                                                  http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/9a1844ccb34936ef?hl=en#

                                                  BTW. The appearance of "mahanta" in Eckankar
                                                  publications apparently didn't surface until 1968,
                                                  or 1969.

                                                  In 1969 the word appeared in The Flute of God and
                                                  in 1969 the large caps version appeared in Wisdom
                                                  Notes.

                                                  For some reason this word was chosen and then
                                                  became popular around 1968 and 1969. And this
                                                  was joined to the words "Living Eck Master".

                                                  The Eckankar definition for "Mahanta" does not
                                                  appear in The Path of the Masters far as I can
                                                  tell. The large caps form of MAHANTA was trade-
                                                  marked by Eckankar corporation probably in the
                                                  later 60s.

                                                  Chapter 3 of The Path of the Masters, by Julian
                                                  Johnson (called: The Masters and Their Duties),
                                                  on p. 178 has "The Masters themselves divide all
                                                  mahatmas into four classes:"

                                                  The classes are written in italics and are called:
                                                  sikh, sadhu, sant, and param sant.

                                                  Over on p. 179: it appears (to me) that Johnson
                                                  used the words Satguru & param sant somewhat
                                                  synomymously. So he doesn't appear to use the
                                                  word Mahanta, but Mahatma. Eckankar decided
                                                  to use the word Mahanta (instead of Mahatma) -
                                                  it appears to me - in the title of it's leadership. It
                                                  also coined a somewhat unique meaning for the
                                                  word, in my opinion.

                                                  The Eckankar Lexicon definition for Sat Guru
                                                  has near the end; See also Living ECK Master;
                                                  Mahanta. So regardless the word used, to me
                                                  it looks like each group became partial to one
                                                  term or another. Even when the meanings are
                                                  generically (for the most part) the same - and
                                                  used for a similar designation. I've seen in my
                                                  research synonymous definitions spelled out
                                                  for both mahatma and mahanta on some Web
                                                  sites. So I wonder how similar they really are.

                                                  Etznab

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: yoga_nidra <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 3:27 pm
                                                  Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                                  Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                                   


                                                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee
                                                  &lt;thomaslee40@...&gt; wrote:
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order to
                                                  create new terms for his new religion.
                                                  &gt; He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma.    The
                                                  word Mahatma means great soul.   It was used by Theosophy to describe a
                                                  highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of
                                                  individuals.  A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master.

                                                  Twitchell didn't coin the term "mahanta," as it's a sanskrit word that
                                                  means "grand."  Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism, though
                                                  Twitchell's use of the term as Grand Poobah of the Universe is
                                                  something he himself came up with.

                                                  Mahanta can also be a name.

                                                  http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Mahanta.html

                                                  Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta?  Most likely from Julian
                                                  Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters, a
                                                  book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with.

                                                  http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=9297157

                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; ________________________________
                                                  &gt; From: "etznab@..." &lt;etznab@...&gt;
                                                  &gt; To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                  &gt; Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                                  &gt; Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                  Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                                  &gt; the first time I sent this.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                                  &gt; as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                                  &gt; myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                                  &gt; prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                                  &gt; of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                                  &gt; word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                                  &gt; by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                                  &gt; and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                                  &gt; published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                                  &gt; (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                                  &gt; "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                                  &gt; of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                                  &gt; sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                                  &gt; in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                                  &gt; the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                                  &gt; used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                                  &gt; and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                                  &gt; 1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                                  &gt; 1970, I believe.)
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                                  &gt; "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                                  &gt; And when did it first become associated with a person?"
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                                  &gt; tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                                  &gt; have been familiar with that term.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                                  &gt; to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                                  &gt; Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                                  &gt; association with a person might have evolved for
                                                  &gt; legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                                  &gt; usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                                  &gt; applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                                  &gt; know who was the head of it.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                                  &gt; consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                                  &gt; evolved to become associated with one single
                                                  &gt; person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                                  &gt; the Eckankar organization exists at a time?
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                                  &gt; well for history (IMO).
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Etznab
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; -----Original Message-----
                                                  &gt; From: tomleafeater &lt;tianyue@earthlink. net&gt;
                                                  &gt; To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  &gt; Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                                  &gt; Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                                  Maybe.
                                                  &gt; Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Jonathan,
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain
                                                  principles
                                                  &gt; or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed
                                                  such
                                                  &gt; things as "people should not worship the personality. " But then
                                                  he
                                                  &gt; contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; Universe.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he
                                                  referred to
                                                  &gt; the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                                  &gt; indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he
                                                  is
                                                  &gt; thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the
                                                  Living
                                                  &gt; Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                                  &gt; Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                                  &gt; indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality)
                                                  and on
                                                  &gt; the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive
                                                  dissonance
                                                  &gt; in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him,
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                                  &gt; introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                                  &gt; stage.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth
                                                  is,
                                                  &gt; for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that
                                                  title, and
                                                  &gt; is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with
                                                  that
                                                  &gt; title.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is
                                                  built
                                                  &gt; around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can
                                                  either
                                                  &gt; give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you
                                                  out of
                                                  &gt; eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                                  &gt; personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can
                                                  remove
                                                  &gt; the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this,
                                                  but
                                                  &gt; the evidence is blatantly clear.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it
                                                  for
                                                  &gt; you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                                  &gt; author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the
                                                  chief
                                                  &gt; personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative
                                                  tactics
                                                  &gt; aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                                  &gt; facts bear this out.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim
                                                  otherwise.
                                                  &gt; And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this,
                                                  because it
                                                  &gt; is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't
                                                  "concern
                                                  &gt; yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where
                                                  do
                                                  &gt; you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon
                                                  me if
                                                  &gt; I say you seem a bit conflicted.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're
                                                  not
                                                  &gt; ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the
                                                  final
                                                  &gt; decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the
                                                  relationship, and
                                                  &gt; realize it to be what it is: A fraud.
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Speaking for myself only,
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; Leaf
                                                  &gt;
                                                  &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                  &gt; &lt;no_reply@ ...&gt; wrote:
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; Leaf,
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized
                                                  that
                                                  &gt; people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he
                                                  didn't
                                                  &gt; want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; impression that I got.
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post
                                                  them
                                                  &gt; because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I
                                                  don't
                                                  &gt; know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from
                                                  someone who
                                                  &gt; was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may
                                                  have
                                                  &gt; already posted this.
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                                  &gt; Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                                  &gt; concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our
                                                  own
                                                  &gt; master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual
                                                  unfoldment.
                                                  &gt; Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                                  &gt; acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal
                                                  unfoldment,
                                                  &gt; that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like
                                                  they
                                                  &gt; are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look
                                                  at
                                                  &gt; themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                                  &gt; don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than
                                                  their
                                                  &gt; followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I
                                                  should be
                                                  &gt; concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                                  &gt; &lt;tianyue@ &gt; wrote:
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan,
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you
                                                  have
                                                  &gt; that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                                  &gt; think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical, "
                                                  I
                                                  &gt; just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive,
                                                  your
                                                  &gt; assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that
                                                  impression
                                                  &gt; about Twitchell?
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as
                                                  Klemp,
                                                  &gt; and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                                  &gt; today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the
                                                  org,
                                                  &gt; PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full
                                                  size
                                                  &gt; wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum.
                                                  People
                                                  &gt; practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand
                                                  in
                                                  &gt; line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                                  &gt; shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and
                                                  would
                                                  &gt; gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                                  &gt; shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                                  &gt; omniscient, capable of anything.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or
                                                  was
                                                  &gt; enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                                  &gt; masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                                  &gt; doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                                  &gt; principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is
                                                  responsible
                                                  &gt; for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same
                                                  time, He
                                                  &gt; must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
                                                  faiths are
                                                  &gt; also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind
                                                  as
                                                  &gt; part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human
                                                  race.
                                                  &gt; Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the
                                                  human
                                                  &gt; race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of
                                                  life
                                                  &gt; on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities
                                                  within
                                                  &gt; the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                                  &gt; planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is
                                                  light-hearted
                                                  &gt; at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is
                                                  ever
                                                  &gt; in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest
                                                  His
                                                  &gt; heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and
                                                  universes.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the
                                                  world
                                                  &gt; savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                                  &gt; planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds
                                                  of
                                                  &gt; God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with,
                                                  but the
                                                  &gt; spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                                  &gt; spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the
                                                  ECK
                                                  &gt; Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the
                                                  spiritual
                                                  &gt; essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and
                                                  Mercy, He
                                                  &gt; is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which
                                                  is
                                                  &gt; the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in
                                                  every
                                                  &gt; man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                                  &gt; life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                                  &gt; through which the ECK flows. "
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                  &gt; &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Harrison,
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are
                                                  in
                                                  &gt; charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other
                                                  words,
                                                  &gt; nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility
                                                  to
                                                  &gt; someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you
                                                  because
                                                  &gt; YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                                  &gt; already told you,
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; when you realize that you are your own master
                                                  you're not
                                                  &gt; supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                                  &gt; others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you
                                                  that
                                                  &gt; a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I
                                                  understand
                                                  &gt; why you have major problems with it.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                                  &gt; response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any
                                                  ego.
                                                  &gt; They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the
                                                  least.
                                                  &gt; There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was
                                                  reported to
                                                  &gt; have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question."
                                                  The
                                                  &gt; Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask
                                                  your
                                                  &gt; question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Actually, it is the East where the most extreme
                                                  worship
                                                  &gt; of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy
                                                  to
                                                  &gt; see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried
                                                  to
                                                  &gt; tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become
                                                  more
                                                  &gt; egotistical.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am
                                                  God
                                                  &gt; realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start
                                                  worshiping
                                                  &gt; the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God
                                                  realized" and
                                                  &gt; then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the
                                                  test"
                                                  &gt; because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The people who realize that they are their own
                                                  master
                                                  &gt; (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their
                                                  own
                                                  &gt; without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have
                                                  "passed
                                                  &gt; the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking
                                                  at
                                                  &gt; things.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                  harrisonferrel
                                                  &gt; &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a
                                                  person,
                                                  &gt; because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your
                                                  reply
                                                  &gt; sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                                  &gt; ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                                  &gt; nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions
                                                  and
                                                  &gt; rationalization.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; We can rationalize "experiences" until we are
                                                  blue
                                                  &gt; in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses
                                                  based on
                                                  &gt; no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not,
                                                  there
                                                  &gt; is no reason to read into these images anything more than the
                                                  workings
                                                  &gt; of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase,
                                                  "Sometimes a
                                                  &gt; cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I am not a master of anything or anything
                                                  close to
                                                  &gt; a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or
                                                  she is
                                                  &gt; a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It
                                                  has
                                                  &gt; little meaning in the West.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; My mind is capable of creating a plethora of
                                                  images
                                                  &gt; and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                                  &gt; analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a
                                                  canvas. If
                                                  &gt; you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                                  &gt; message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence
                                                  to
                                                  &gt; back up your claims.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the
                                                  time I
                                                  &gt; read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                                  &gt; something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't
                                                  very
                                                  &gt; good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far
                                                  more out
                                                  &gt; of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                                  &gt; forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar
                                                  overtones.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From your analysis of my experiences and
                                                  visions,
                                                  &gt; you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you
                                                  don't
                                                  &gt; know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                                  &gt; psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on
                                                  a
                                                  &gt; single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do.
                                                  It's
                                                  &gt; not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess
                                                  that
                                                  &gt; he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                                  &gt; klemp's  program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                                  &gt; candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                                  &gt; experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer
                                                  folly.
                                                  &gt; But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery
                                                  or
                                                  &gt; "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my
                                                  original
                                                  &gt; post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar does a good job at relieving people
                                                  of
                                                  &gt; their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of
                                                  truth.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                  &gt; jonathanjohns96 &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Harrison,
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I believe you inner experiences were
                                                  real. And
                                                  &gt; I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                                  &gt; telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that
                                                  Ford
                                                  &gt; Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only
                                                  because
                                                  &gt; a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not
                                                  had the
                                                  &gt; time to read his book.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So getting back to your inner
                                                  experiences.
                                                  &gt; They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this
                                                  type
                                                  &gt; of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it
                                                  mildly).
                                                  &gt; So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                                  &gt; only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the
                                                  time
                                                  &gt; when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you
                                                  about one
                                                  &gt; thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are
                                                  your
                                                  &gt; own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1)
                                                  think
                                                  &gt; that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It
                                                  was
                                                  &gt; just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny
                                                  and (2)
                                                  &gt; you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From this point on I am no longer talking
                                                  &gt; about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general
                                                  discussion.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                                  &gt; hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                                  &gt; experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way.
                                                  The
                                                  &gt; problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                                  &gt; experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse
                                                  than
                                                  &gt; that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally
                                                  have no
                                                  &gt; clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going
                                                  on is
                                                  &gt; the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that
                                                  didn't
                                                  &gt; match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I still remember something that I read on
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story
                                                  about
                                                  &gt; how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly
                                                  left
                                                  &gt; his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put
                                                  it,
                                                  &gt; he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                                  &gt; exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you
                                                  there.
                                                  &gt; Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So lots of people have inner experiences
                                                  &gt; contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when
                                                  they
                                                  &gt; do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think
                                                  it is
                                                  &gt; actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it
                                                  is
                                                  &gt; rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or
                                                  people
                                                  &gt; are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not
                                                  specifically
                                                  &gt; talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                                  &gt; reasons.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I once told a fellow member that all the
                                                  books
                                                  &gt; in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner
                                                  experiences
                                                  &gt; made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone
                                                  Of
                                                  &gt; God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck
                                                  book.
                                                  &gt; I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
                                                  another
                                                  &gt; example of somebody having different experiences, and before you
                                                  know
                                                  &gt; it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                  &gt; harrisonferrel &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When I was in Eckankar, I was
                                                  completely
                                                  &gt; amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the
                                                  contents of
                                                  &gt; my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                                  &gt; including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                                  &gt; something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms
                                                  that
                                                  &gt; the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                                  &gt; throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major
                                                  events
                                                  &gt; in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So what do you do with this kind of
                                                  thing?
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Luckily, I am not a deluded person,
                                                  a
                                                  &gt; narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of
                                                  deranged
                                                  &gt; characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little
                                                  bell
                                                  &gt; that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded
                                                  nutjob
                                                  &gt; pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                                  &gt; rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
                                                  un-believe-able.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When you have experiences that show
                                                  you
                                                  &gt; to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are
                                                  quick to
                                                  &gt; tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap.
                                                  When
                                                  &gt; you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do
                                                  with
                                                  &gt; you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares
                                                  them
                                                  &gt; because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                                  &gt; threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I've come to see past lives and all
                                                  other
                                                  &gt; dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of
                                                  much of
                                                  &gt; my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                                  &gt; nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with
                                                  any
                                                  &gt; sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
                                                  want
                                                  &gt; to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                                  &gt; satisfying answer.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Why people believe klemp, twitchell
                                                  or
                                                  &gt; morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind.
                                                  It
                                                  &gt; has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed,
                                                  years
                                                  &gt; ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                                  &gt; couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                                  &gt; matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Following my 12 year stint with
                                                  eckankar,
                                                  &gt; I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation
                                                  for
                                                  &gt; what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that
                                                  eckankar, as
                                                  &gt; a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions
                                                  for old
                                                  &gt; words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people
                                                  in
                                                  &gt; this particular posting group who have meticulously shown
                                                  innumerable
                                                  &gt; plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Serious delving into the human mind,
                                                  &gt; Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                                  &gt; imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                                  &gt; metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging,
                                                  (and in
                                                  &gt; too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories,"
                                                  out
                                                  &gt; of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I can only imagine that if harold
                                                  klemp
                                                  &gt; had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he
                                                  would
                                                  &gt; take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already
                                                  distorted
                                                  &gt; sense of self.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                                  &gt; least, for anybody, especially those like  us who entered the cult
                                                  with
                                                  &gt; an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become
                                                  better
                                                  &gt; people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with
                                                  the
                                                  &gt; diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good
                                                  to
                                                  &gt; give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and
                                                  cheat
                                                  &gt; at the helm.
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt; &gt;
                                                  &gt;


                                                               




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                                                • yoga_nidra
                                                  ... I don t know for sure either, I was taking the word of the website I cited. Here is something David Lane wrote: When Twitchell first started writing about
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Apr 16, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > "Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta?
                                                    > Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta
                                                    > is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                    > a book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with."
                                                    >
                                                    > A word in Julian Johnson's book is mahatma,
                                                    > not mahanta. I don't know that mahanta is in
                                                    > that book - The Path of the Masters.

                                                    I don't know for sure either, I was taking the word of the website I cited.

                                                    Here is something David Lane wrote:

                                                    "When Twitchell first started writing about Eckankar he more or less used terminology which was based upon shabd yoga. However, he quickly began to take on terms which were not in Radhasoami literature and incorporate them into the larger theology of Eckankar, as witnessed in The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. In so doing he made Eckankar an eclectic teaching, even though its major emphasis was Indian in origin. The term Mahanta is a case in point. Although the term usually translates as "one who is in charge of a temple" or "head of an ashram," Twitchell utilized it as meaning: "The Living Eck Master.""

                                                    http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/rsch3.html


                                                    >
                                                    > (If someone happens to find mahanta listed
                                                    > in POTM, please cite page number.)
                                                    >
                                                    > Here is something else to consider about the
                                                    > knowledge of Sanskrit familiar to Eckankar in
                                                    > its formative stages.
                                                    >
                                                    > A June 1980 letter by Louis Bluth has, in part:
                                                    >
                                                    > "[....] He [Paul Twitchell] borrowed my books
                                                    > on Radha Soami and copied a large share from
                                                    > them. I helped him write the Herb book and went
                                                    > to Riverside University and took Sanskrit, so
                                                    > basically much of the material is good because
                                                    > it is copied. [....]"
                                                    >
                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankarhistory/message/1434
                                                    >
                                                    > What this tells me is that Dr. Louis Bluth - the
                                                    > president of Eckankar in the early years - was
                                                    > familiar with Sanskrit. I think it was about 1966
                                                    > when Bluth met Paul Twitchell. I think L. Bluth
                                                    > was a former Radha Soami student of about 17
                                                    > years!
                                                    >
                                                    > "In a lecture by Bluth that I attended, Bluth stated
                                                    > that he followed Radhasoami for 17 years before he
                                                    > joined Eckankar. Bluth was an acupuncturist as well
                                                    > as an MD (a bit of trivia for you, Etznab.) He was
                                                    > rather full of himself, in my view. - Tianyue
                                                    >
                                                    > [Based on A.R.E. post 03/09/10]
                                                    >
                                                    > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/9a1844ccb34936ef?hl=en#
                                                    >
                                                    > BTW. The appearance of "mahanta" in Eckankar
                                                    > publications apparently didn't surface until 1968,
                                                    > or 1969.
                                                    >
                                                    > In 1969 the word appeared in The Flute of God and
                                                    > in 1969 the large caps version appeared in Wisdom
                                                    > Notes.
                                                    >
                                                    > For some reason this word was chosen and then
                                                    > became popular around 1968 and 1969. And this
                                                    > was joined to the words "Living Eck Master".
                                                    >
                                                    > The Eckankar definition for "Mahanta" does not
                                                    > appear in The Path of the Masters far as I can
                                                    > tell. The large caps form of MAHANTA was trade-
                                                    > marked by Eckankar corporation probably in the
                                                    > later 60s.
                                                    >
                                                    > Chapter 3 of The Path of the Masters, by Julian
                                                    > Johnson (called: The Masters and Their Duties),
                                                    > on p. 178 has "The Masters themselves divide all
                                                    > mahatmas into four classes:"
                                                    >
                                                    > The classes are written in italics and are called:
                                                    > sikh, sadhu, sant, and param sant.
                                                    >
                                                    > Over on p. 179: it appears (to me) that Johnson
                                                    > used the words Satguru & param sant somewhat
                                                    > synomymously. So he doesn't appear to use the
                                                    > word Mahanta, but Mahatma. Eckankar decided
                                                    > to use the word Mahanta (instead of Mahatma) -
                                                    > it appears to me - in the title of it's leadership. It
                                                    > also coined a somewhat unique meaning for the
                                                    > word, in my opinion.
                                                    >
                                                    > The Eckankar Lexicon definition for Sat Guru
                                                    > has near the end; See also Living ECK Master;
                                                    > Mahanta. So regardless the word used, to me
                                                    > it looks like each group became partial to one
                                                    > term or another. Even when the meanings are
                                                    > generically (for the most part) the same - and
                                                    > used for a similar designation. I've seen in my
                                                    > research synonymous definitions spelled out
                                                    > for both mahatma and mahanta on some Web
                                                    > sites. So I wonder how similar they really are.
                                                    >
                                                    > Etznab
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: yoga_nidra <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Sent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 3:27 pm
                                                    > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                                    > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                    >
                                                    >  
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee
                                                    > thomaslee40@ wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order to
                                                    > create new terms for his new religion.
                                                    > > He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma. The
                                                    > word Mahatma means great soul. It was used by Theosophy to describe a
                                                    > highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of
                                                    > individuals. A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master.
                                                    >
                                                    > Twitchell didn't coin the term "mahanta," as it's a sanskrit word that
                                                    > means "grand." Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism, though
                                                    > Twitchell's use of the term as Grand Poobah of the Universe is
                                                    > something he himself came up with.
                                                    >
                                                    > Mahanta can also be a name.
                                                    >
                                                    > http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Mahanta.html
                                                    >
                                                    > Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta? Most likely from Julian
                                                    > Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters, a
                                                    > book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with.
                                                    >
                                                    > http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=9297157
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > ________________________________
                                                    > > From: "etznab@" etznab@
                                                    > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                                    > > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                    > Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                                    > > the first time I sent this.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                                    > > as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                                    > > myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                                    > > prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                                    > > of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                                    > > word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                                    > > by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                                    > > and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                                    > > published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                                    > > (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                                    > > "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                                    > > of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                                    > > sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                                    > > in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                                    > > the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                                    > > used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                                    > > and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                                    > > 1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                                    > > 1970, I believe.)
                                                    > >
                                                    > > So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                                    > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                                    > > And when did it first become associated with a person?"
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                                    > > tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                                    > > have been familiar with that term.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                                    > > to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                                    > > Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                                    > > association with a person might have evolved for
                                                    > > legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                                    > > usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                                    > > applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                                    > > know who was the head of it.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                                    > > consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                                    > > evolved to become associated with one single
                                                    > > person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                                    > > the Eckankar organization exists at a time?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                                    > > well for history (IMO).
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Etznab
                                                    > >
                                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > From: tomleafeater tianyue@earthlink. net>
                                                    > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                    > > Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                                    > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                                    > Maybe.
                                                    > > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Jonathan,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain
                                                    > principles
                                                    > > or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed
                                                    > such
                                                    > > things as "people should not worship the personality. " But then
                                                    > he
                                                    > > contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of
                                                    > the
                                                    > > Universe.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he
                                                    > referred to
                                                    > > the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                                    > > indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he
                                                    > is
                                                    > > thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the
                                                    > Living
                                                    > > Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not
                                                    > the
                                                    > > body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                                    > > Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                                    > > indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality)
                                                    > and on
                                                    > > the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive
                                                    > dissonance
                                                    > > in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him,
                                                    > the
                                                    > > man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                                    > > introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                                    > > stage.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth
                                                    > is,
                                                    > > for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that
                                                    > title, and
                                                    > > is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with
                                                    > that
                                                    > > title.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is
                                                    > built
                                                    > > around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can
                                                    > either
                                                    > > give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you
                                                    > out of
                                                    > > eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                                    > > personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can
                                                    > remove
                                                    > > the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this,
                                                    > but
                                                    > > the evidence is blatantly clear.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it
                                                    > for
                                                    > > you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                                    > > author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the
                                                    > chief
                                                    > > personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative
                                                    > tactics
                                                    > > aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                                    > > facts bear this out.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim
                                                    > otherwise.
                                                    > > And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this,
                                                    > because it
                                                    > > is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't
                                                    > "concern
                                                    > > yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where
                                                    > do
                                                    > > you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon
                                                    > me if
                                                    > > I say you seem a bit conflicted.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're
                                                    > not
                                                    > > ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the
                                                    > final
                                                    > > decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the
                                                    > relationship, and
                                                    > > realize it to be what it is: A fraud.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Speaking for myself only,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Leaf
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                    > > <no_reply@ ...> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Leaf,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized
                                                    > that
                                                    > > people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he
                                                    > didn't
                                                    > > want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is
                                                    > the
                                                    > > impression that I got.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post
                                                    > them
                                                    > > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I
                                                    > don't
                                                    > > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from
                                                    > someone who
                                                    > > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may
                                                    > have
                                                    > > already posted this.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                                    > > Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                                    > > concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our
                                                    > own
                                                    > > master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual
                                                    > unfoldment.
                                                    > > Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                                    > > acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal
                                                    > unfoldment,
                                                    > > that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all
                                                    > the
                                                    > > other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like
                                                    > they
                                                    > > are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look
                                                    > at
                                                    > > themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                                    > > don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than
                                                    > their
                                                    > > followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I
                                                    > should be
                                                    > > concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Jonathan
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                                    > > <tianyue@ > wrote:
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Jonathan,
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you
                                                    > have
                                                    > > that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                                    > > think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical, "
                                                    > I
                                                    > > just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive,
                                                    > your
                                                    > > assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that
                                                    > impression
                                                    > > about Twitchell?
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as
                                                    > Klemp,
                                                    > > and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                                    > > today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the
                                                    > org,
                                                    > > PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full
                                                    > size
                                                    > > wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum.
                                                    > People
                                                    > > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand
                                                    > in
                                                    > > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                                    > > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and
                                                    > would
                                                    > > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                                    > > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                                    > > omniscient, capable of anything.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or
                                                    > was
                                                    > > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                                    > > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                                    > > doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                                    > > principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is
                                                    > responsible
                                                    > > for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same
                                                    > time, He
                                                    > > must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
                                                    > faiths are
                                                    > > also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at
                                                    > the
                                                    > > major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind
                                                    > as
                                                    > > part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human
                                                    > race.
                                                    > > Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the
                                                    > human
                                                    > > race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of
                                                    > life
                                                    > > on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities
                                                    > within
                                                    > > the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                                    > > planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is
                                                    > light-hearted
                                                    > > at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is
                                                    > ever
                                                    > > in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest
                                                    > His
                                                    > > heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and
                                                    > universes.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the
                                                    > world
                                                    > > savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                                    > > planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds
                                                    > of
                                                    > > God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with,
                                                    > but the
                                                    > > spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                                    > > spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the
                                                    > ECK
                                                    > > Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the
                                                    > spiritual
                                                    > > essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and
                                                    > Mercy, He
                                                    > > is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which
                                                    > is
                                                    > > the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in
                                                    > every
                                                    > > man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                                    > > life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                                    > > through which the ECK flows. "
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                    > > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Harrison,
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are
                                                    > in
                                                    > > charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other
                                                    > words,
                                                    > > nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility
                                                    > to
                                                    > > someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you
                                                    > because
                                                    > > YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                                    > > already told you,
                                                    > > > > > when you realize that you are your own master
                                                    > you're not
                                                    > > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                                    > > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you
                                                    > that
                                                    > > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I
                                                    > understand
                                                    > > why you have major problems with it.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                                    > > response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any
                                                    > ego.
                                                    > > They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the
                                                    > least.
                                                    > > There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was
                                                    > reported to
                                                    > > have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question."
                                                    > The
                                                    > > Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask
                                                    > your
                                                    > > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme
                                                    > worship
                                                    > > of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy
                                                    > to
                                                    > > see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried
                                                    > to
                                                    > > tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become
                                                    > more
                                                    > > egotistical.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am
                                                    > God
                                                    > > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start
                                                    > worshiping
                                                    > > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God
                                                    > realized" and
                                                    > > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the
                                                    > test"
                                                    > > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > The people who realize that they are their own
                                                    > master
                                                    > > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their
                                                    > own
                                                    > > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have
                                                    > "passed
                                                    > > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking
                                                    > at
                                                    > > things.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Jonathan
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                    > harrisonferrel
                                                    > > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a
                                                    > person,
                                                    > > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your
                                                    > reply
                                                    > > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                                    > > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                                    > > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions
                                                    > and
                                                    > > rationalization.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are
                                                    > blue
                                                    > > in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses
                                                    > based on
                                                    > > no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that
                                                    > the
                                                    > > mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not,
                                                    > there
                                                    > > is no reason to read into these images anything more than the
                                                    > workings
                                                    > > of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase,
                                                    > "Sometimes a
                                                    > > cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything
                                                    > close to
                                                    > > a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or
                                                    > she is
                                                    > > a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It
                                                    > has
                                                    > > little meaning in the West.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of
                                                    > images
                                                    > > and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                                    > > analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a
                                                    > canvas. If
                                                    > > you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                                    > > message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence
                                                    > to
                                                    > > back up your claims.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the
                                                    > time I
                                                    > > read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                                    > > something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't
                                                    > very
                                                    > > good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far
                                                    > more out
                                                    > > of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                                    > > forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar
                                                    > overtones.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and
                                                    > visions,
                                                    > > you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you
                                                    > don't
                                                    > > know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                                    > > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on
                                                    > a
                                                    > > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do.
                                                    > It's
                                                    > > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess
                                                    > that
                                                    > > he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                                    > > klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                                    > > candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                                    > > experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer
                                                    > folly.
                                                    > > But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery
                                                    > or
                                                    > > "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my
                                                    > original
                                                    > > post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people
                                                    > of
                                                    > > their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of
                                                    > truth.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                    > > jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Harrison,
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were
                                                    > real. And
                                                    > > I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                                    > > telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that
                                                    > Ford
                                                    > > Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only
                                                    > because
                                                    > > a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not
                                                    > had the
                                                    > > time to read his book.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > So getting back to your inner
                                                    > experiences.
                                                    > > They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this
                                                    > type
                                                    > > of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it
                                                    > mildly).
                                                    > > So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                                    > > only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the
                                                    > time
                                                    > > when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you
                                                    > about one
                                                    > > thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are
                                                    > your
                                                    > > own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1)
                                                    > think
                                                    > > that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It
                                                    > was
                                                    > > just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny
                                                    > and (2)
                                                    > > you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                                    > > about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general
                                                    > discussion.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                                    > > hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                                    > > experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way.
                                                    > The
                                                    > > problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                                    > > experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse
                                                    > than
                                                    > > that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally
                                                    > have no
                                                    > > clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going
                                                    > on is
                                                    > > the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to
                                                    > the
                                                    > > benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that
                                                    > didn't
                                                    > > match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > I still remember something that I read on
                                                    > the
                                                    > > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story
                                                    > about
                                                    > > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly
                                                    > left
                                                    > > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put
                                                    > it,
                                                    > > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                                    > > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you
                                                    > there.
                                                    > > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                                    > > contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when
                                                    > they
                                                    > > do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think
                                                    > it is
                                                    > > actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it
                                                    > is
                                                    > > rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or
                                                    > people
                                                    > > are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not
                                                    > specifically
                                                    > > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                                    > > reasons.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the
                                                    > books
                                                    > > in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner
                                                    > experiences
                                                    > > made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone
                                                    > Of
                                                    > > God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck
                                                    > book.
                                                    > > I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
                                                    > another
                                                    > > example of somebody having different experiences, and before you
                                                    > know
                                                    > > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Jonathan
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                    > > harrisonferrel <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was
                                                    > completely
                                                    > > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the
                                                    > contents of
                                                    > > my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                                    > > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                                    > > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms
                                                    > that
                                                    > > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                                    > > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major
                                                    > events
                                                    > > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of
                                                    > thing?
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person,
                                                    > a
                                                    > > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of
                                                    > deranged
                                                    > > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little
                                                    > bell
                                                    > > that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded
                                                    > nutjob
                                                    > > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                                    > > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
                                                    > un-believe-able.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > When you have experiences that show
                                                    > you
                                                    > > to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are
                                                    > quick to
                                                    > > tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap.
                                                    > When
                                                    > > you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do
                                                    > with
                                                    > > you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares
                                                    > them
                                                    > > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                                    > > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all
                                                    > other
                                                    > > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of
                                                    > much of
                                                    > > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                                    > > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with
                                                    > any
                                                    > > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would
                                                    > want
                                                    > > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                                    > > satisfying answer.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell
                                                    > or
                                                    > > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind.
                                                    > It
                                                    > > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed,
                                                    > years
                                                    > > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                                    > > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                                    > > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with
                                                    > eckankar,
                                                    > > I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation
                                                    > for
                                                    > > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that
                                                    > eckankar, as
                                                    > > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions
                                                    > for old
                                                    > > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in
                                                    > the
                                                    > > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people
                                                    > in
                                                    > > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown
                                                    > innumerable
                                                    > > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                                    > > Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                                    > > imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                                    > > metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging,
                                                    > (and in
                                                    > > too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories,"
                                                    > out
                                                    > > of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold
                                                    > klemp
                                                    > > had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he
                                                    > would
                                                    > > take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already
                                                    > distorted
                                                    > > sense of self.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                                    > > least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult
                                                    > with
                                                    > > an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become
                                                    > better
                                                    > > people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with
                                                    > the
                                                    > > diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good
                                                    > to
                                                    > > give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and
                                                    > cheat
                                                    > > at the helm.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • yoga_nidra
                                                    I think Twitchell s use of the term was simply because mahanta has a kind of lyrical quality. Many sankrit words just sound beautiful. Which reminds me,
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Apr 16, 2010
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                                                      I think Twitchell's use of the term was simply because "mahanta" has a kind of lyrical quality. Many sankrit words just sound beautiful. Which reminds me, "Sugmad" is not sanskrit, more like a character from Star Trek.

                                                      And of course Twitchell's M.O. was to refashion the more common religious terms into something exotic, different, and better than the competition. "Mshstma" was too evocative of Gandhi, too Indian. "Mahanta" on the other hand was pleasing word that could be assigned a new meaning, and it didn't evoke any Indian cultural baggage. It's all marketing, nothing mysterious going on here.

                                                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, yoga_nidra <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order to create new terms for his new religion.
                                                      > > He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma. The word Mahatma means great soul. It was used by Theosophy to describe a highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of individuals. A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master.
                                                      >
                                                      > Twitchell didn't coin the term "mahanta," as it's a sanskrit word that means "grand." Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism, though Twitchell's use of the term as Grand Poobah of the Universe is something he himself came up with.
                                                      >
                                                      > Mahanta can also be a name.
                                                      >
                                                      > http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Mahanta.html
                                                      >
                                                      > Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta? Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters, a book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with.
                                                      >
                                                      > http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=9297157
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ________________________________
                                                      > > From: "etznab@" <etznab@>
                                                      > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > > Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                                      > > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                                      > > the first time I sent this.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                                      > > as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                                      > > myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                                      > > prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                                      > > of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                                      > > word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                                      > > by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                                      > > and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                                      > > published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                                      > > (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                                      > > "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                                      > > of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                                      > > sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                                      > > in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                                      > > the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                                      > > used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                                      > > and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                                      > > 1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                                      > > 1970, I believe.)
                                                      > >
                                                      > > So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                                      > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                                      > > And when did it first become associated with a person?"
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                                      > > tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                                      > > have been familiar with that term.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                                      > > to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                                      > > Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                                      > > association with a person might have evolved for
                                                      > > legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                                      > > usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                                      > > applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                                      > > know who was the head of it.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                                      > > consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                                      > > evolved to become associated with one single
                                                      > > person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                                      > > the Eckankar organization exists at a time?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                                      > > well for history (IMO).
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Etznab
                                                      > >
                                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > > From: tomleafeater <tianyue@earthlink. net>
                                                      > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                      > > Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                                      > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                                      > > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Jonathan,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain principles
                                                      > > or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he claimed such
                                                      > > things as "people should not worship the personality. " But then he
                                                      > > contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master of the
                                                      > > Universe.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he referred to
                                                      > > the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned, that
                                                      > > indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person, he is
                                                      > > thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta, the Living
                                                      > > Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is not the
                                                      > > body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to the
                                                      > > Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as LIVING,
                                                      > > indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating personality) and on
                                                      > > the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive dissonance
                                                      > > in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of him, the
                                                      > > man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he was
                                                      > > introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he went on
                                                      > > stage.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the truth is,
                                                      > > for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that title, and
                                                      > > is introduced with that title, and identified in writings with that
                                                      > > title.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because Eckankar is built
                                                      > > around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can either
                                                      > > give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick you out of
                                                      > > eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization. That
                                                      > > personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can remove
                                                      > > the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!
                                                      > >
                                                      > > It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny this, but
                                                      > > the evidence is blatantly clear.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will answer it for
                                                      > > you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off other
                                                      > > author's writings to create his own path so that he could be the chief
                                                      > > personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative tactics
                                                      > > aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his followers. The
                                                      > > facts bear this out.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim otherwise.
                                                      > > And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this, because it
                                                      > > is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you don't "concern
                                                      > > yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just where do
                                                      > > you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not? Pardon me if
                                                      > > I say you seem a bit conflicted.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what you're not
                                                      > > ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make the final
                                                      > > decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the relationship, and
                                                      > > realize it to be what it is: A fraud.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Speaking for myself only,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Leaf
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                      > > <no_reply@ ...> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Leaf,
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He emphasized that
                                                      > > people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that he didn't
                                                      > > want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that is the
                                                      > > impression that I got.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please post them
                                                      > > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message board. I don't
                                                      > > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from someone who
                                                      > > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that you may have
                                                      > > already posted this.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member of
                                                      > > Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't even
                                                      > > concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us is our own
                                                      > > master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual unfoldment.
                                                      > > Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND starts
                                                      > > acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal unfoldment,
                                                      > > that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and all the
                                                      > > other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act like they
                                                      > > are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should look at
                                                      > > themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the end, I
                                                      > > don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved than their
                                                      > > followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I should be
                                                      > > concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other people's.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Jonathan
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                                      > > <tianyue@ > wrote:
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Jonathan,
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion you have
                                                      > > that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and that you
                                                      > > think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more egotistical, " I
                                                      > > just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was alive, your
                                                      > > assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that impression
                                                      > > about Twitchell?
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as Klemp,
                                                      > > and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell. While in
                                                      > > today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run the org,
                                                      > > PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji full size
                                                      > > wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad nauseum. People
                                                      > > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would stand in
                                                      > > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan" and to
                                                      > > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity, and would
                                                      > > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you feel the
                                                      > > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                                      > > omniscient, capable of anything.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a Master, or was
                                                      > > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by inner
                                                      > > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up all
                                                      > > doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                                      > > principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible
                                                      > > for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the same time, He
                                                      > > must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are
                                                      > > also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the
                                                      > > major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of mankind as
                                                      > > part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race.
                                                      > > Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human
                                                      > > race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life
                                                      > > on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within
                                                      > > the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the higher
                                                      > > planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted
                                                      > > at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever
                                                      > > in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His
                                                      > > heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world
                                                      > > savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic
                                                      > > planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of
                                                      > > God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the
                                                      > > spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the
                                                      > > spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK
                                                      > > Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual
                                                      > > essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He
                                                      > > is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is
                                                      > > the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every
                                                      > > man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of
                                                      > > life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel
                                                      > > through which the ECK flows. "
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                      > > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Harrison,
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > "You are your own master" simply means that YOU are in
                                                      > > charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In other words,
                                                      > > nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own responsibility to
                                                      > > someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you because
                                                      > > YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my reply I
                                                      > > already told you,
                                                      > > > > > when you realize that you are your own master you're not
                                                      > > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better than
                                                      > > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with you that
                                                      > > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I understand
                                                      > > why you have major problems with it.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading my
                                                      > > response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had any ego.
                                                      > > They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the least.
                                                      > > There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was reported to
                                                      > > have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a question." The
                                                      > > Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and ask your
                                                      > > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Actually, it is the East where the most extreme worship
                                                      > > of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is easy to
                                                      > > see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually tried to
                                                      > > tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                                      > > egotistical.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I am God
                                                      > > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start worshiping
                                                      > > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God realized" and
                                                      > > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed the test"
                                                      > > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > The people who realize that they are their own master
                                                      > > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on their own
                                                      > > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who have "passed
                                                      > > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of looking at
                                                      > > things.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Jonathan
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, harrisonferrel
                                                      > > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as a person,
                                                      > > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but your reply
                                                      > > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge or
                                                      > > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the same
                                                      > > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar � assumptions and
                                                      > > rationalization.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we are blue
                                                      > > in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses based on
                                                      > > no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion that the
                                                      > > mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than not, there
                                                      > > is no reason to read into these images anything more than the workings
                                                      > > of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase, "Sometimes a
                                                      > > cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything close to
                                                      > > a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he or she is
                                                      > > a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect. It has
                                                      > > little meaning in the West.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora of images
                                                      > > and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world. By
                                                      > > analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a canvas. If
                                                      > > you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that holds a
                                                      > > message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any evidence to
                                                      > > back up your claims.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at the time I
                                                      > > read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the hope of
                                                      > > something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book isn't very
                                                      > > good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got far more out
                                                      > > of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with this
                                                      > > forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar overtones.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and visions,
                                                      > > you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and you don't
                                                      > > know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is like a
                                                      > > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis based on a
                                                      > > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong to do. It's
                                                      > > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to guess that
                                                      > > he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the perpetuation of
                                                      > > klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                                      > > candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations for
                                                      > > experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer folly.
                                                      > > But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own imagery or
                                                      > > "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my original
                                                      > > post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving people of
                                                      > > their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of truth.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                      > > jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > Harrison,
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were real. And
                                                      > > I believe that they were just for you. They were almost certainly
                                                      > > telling you that "You are a master too." That is something that Ford
                                                      > > Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford only because
                                                      > > a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have not had the
                                                      > > time to read his book.
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > So getting back to your inner experiences.
                                                      > > They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that this type
                                                      > > of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it mildly).
                                                      > > So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just for you
                                                      > > only) were telling you that were you were getting close to the time
                                                      > > when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you about one
                                                      > > thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that "You are your
                                                      > > own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and (1) think
                                                      > > that you are superior to others or (2) start your own religion. It was
                                                      > > just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own destiny and (2)
                                                      > > you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > From this point on I am no longer talking
                                                      > > about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general discussion.
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book was
                                                      > > hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported Twitchell's
                                                      > > experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the way. The
                                                      > > problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                                      > > experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And worse than
                                                      > > that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they generally have no
                                                      > > clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is going on is
                                                      > > the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that to the
                                                      > > benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that didn't
                                                      > > match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > I still remember something that I read on the
                                                      > > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a story about
                                                      > > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and promptly left
                                                      > > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the emphatically put it,
                                                      > > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how the
                                                      > > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for you there.
                                                      > > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > So lots of people have inner experiences
                                                      > > contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And when they
                                                      > > do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I think it is
                                                      > > actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar, but it is
                                                      > > rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or people
                                                      > > are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not specifically
                                                      > > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about possible
                                                      > > reasons.
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all the books
                                                      > > in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner experiences
                                                      > > made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta Stone Of
                                                      > > God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard Eck book.
                                                      > > I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be another
                                                      > > example of somebody having different experiences, and before you know
                                                      > > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > Jonathan
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                      > > harrisonferrel <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was completely
                                                      > > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the contents of
                                                      > > my contemplations made me something superior to all human beings,
                                                      > > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                                      > > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain terms that
                                                      > > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was on a
                                                      > > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the major events
                                                      > > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > So what do you do with this kind of thing?
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded person, a
                                                      > > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order of deranged
                                                      > > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a little bell
                                                      > > that made me question everything about eckankar and the deluded nutjob
                                                      > > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose fantastic
                                                      > > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are un-believe-able.
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > When you have experiences that show you
                                                      > > to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are quick to
                                                      > > tell you it's because you need the light or some other such crap. When
                                                      > > you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to do with
                                                      > > you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It scares them
                                                      > > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's scary and
                                                      > > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and all other
                                                      > > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy of much of
                                                      > > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is just
                                                      > > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do with any
                                                      > > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind would want
                                                      > > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon a
                                                      > > satisfying answer.
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > Why people believe klemp, twitchell or
                                                      > > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart mind. It
                                                      > > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was amazed, years
                                                      > > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I found a
                                                      > > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar subject
                                                      > > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I thought.
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with eckankar,
                                                      > > I left and looked into just about every other possible explanation for
                                                      > > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that eckankar, as
                                                      > > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing definitions for old
                                                      > > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced in the
                                                      > > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good people in
                                                      > > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown innumerable
                                                      > > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > Serious delving into the human mind,
                                                      > > Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and the
                                                      > > imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is a
                                                      > > metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an encouraging, (and in
                                                      > > too many cases) believable, explanation for past life "memories," out
                                                      > > of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > I can only imagine that if harold klemp
                                                      > > had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had he would
                                                      > > take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already distorted
                                                      > > sense of self.
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to say the
                                                      > > least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the cult with
                                                      > > an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become better
                                                      > > people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree with the
                                                      > > diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some good to
                                                      > > give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar and cheat
                                                      > > at the helm.
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • etznab@aol.com
                                                      OK. But that website had a quote by me. And it said then, as I said the other day, I don t be- lieve mahanta is in Johnson s book. I said the word in
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Apr 17, 2010
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        OK. But that website had a quote by me. And
                                                        it said then, as I said the other day, I don't be-
                                                        lieve "mahanta" is in Johnson's book. I said the
                                                        word in Johnson's book was "mahatma".

                                                        Example:

                                                        Why does this interest me? Because I also
                                                        recall finding the word devotee and/or devotion
                                                        used to describe the word "mahatma". This is
                                                        the word that appears in Julian Johnson's book.
                                                        I don't believe the word "mahanta" is there - in
                                                        Path of the Masters.

                                                        http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=9297157

                                                        Etznab

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: yoga_nidra <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 1:25 am
                                                        Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                                        Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                                         


                                                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > "Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta?
                                                        > Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta
                                                        > is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                        > a book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with."
                                                        >
                                                        > A word in Julian Johnson's book is mahatma,
                                                        > not mahanta. I don't know that mahanta is in
                                                        > that book - The Path of the Masters.

                                                        I don't know for sure either, I was taking the word of the website I
                                                        cited.

                                                        Here is something David Lane wrote:

                                                        "When Twitchell first started writing about Eckankar he more or less
                                                        used terminology which was based upon shabd yoga. However, he quickly
                                                        began to take on terms which were not in Radhasoami literature and
                                                        incorporate them into the larger theology of Eckankar, as witnessed in
                                                        The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad. In so doing he made Eckankar an eclectic
                                                        teaching, even though its major emphasis was Indian in origin. The term
                                                        Mahanta is a case in point. Although the term usually translates as
                                                        "one who is in charge of a temple" or "head of an ashram," Twitchell
                                                        utilized it as meaning: "The Living Eck Master.""

                                                        http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/rsch3.html

                                                        >
                                                        > (If someone happens to find mahanta listed
                                                        > in POTM, please cite page number.)
                                                        >
                                                        > Here is something else to consider about the
                                                        > knowledge of Sanskrit familiar to Eckankar in
                                                        > its formative stages.
                                                        >
                                                        > A June 1980 letter by Louis Bluth has, in part:
                                                        >
                                                        > "[....] He [Paul Twitchell] borrowed my books
                                                        > on Radha Soami and copied a large share from
                                                        > them. I helped him write the Herb book and went
                                                        > to Riverside University and took Sanskrit, so
                                                        > basically much of the material is good because
                                                        > it is copied. [....]"
                                                        >
                                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankarhistory/message/1434
                                                        >
                                                        > What this tells me is that Dr. Louis Bluth - the
                                                        > president of Eckankar in the early years - was
                                                        > familiar with Sanskrit. I think it was about 1966
                                                        > when Bluth met Paul Twitchell. I think L. Bluth
                                                        > was a former Radha Soami student of about 17
                                                        > years!
                                                        >
                                                        > "In a lecture by Bluth that I attended, Bluth stated
                                                        > that he followed Radhasoami for 17 years before he
                                                        > joined Eckankar. Bluth was an acupuncturist as well
                                                        > as an MD (a bit of trivia for you, Etznab.) He was
                                                        > rather full of himself, in my view. - Tianyue
                                                        >
                                                        > [Based on A.R.E. post 03/09/10]
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/9a1844ccb34936ef?hl=en#
                                                        >
                                                        > BTW. The appearance of "mahanta" in Eckankar
                                                        > publications apparently didn't surface until 1968,
                                                        > or 1969.
                                                        >
                                                        > In 1969 the word appeared in The Flute of God and
                                                        > in 1969 the large caps version appeared in Wisdom
                                                        > Notes.
                                                        >
                                                        > For some reason this word was chosen and then
                                                        > became popular around 1968 and 1969. And this
                                                        > was joined to the words "Living Eck Master".
                                                        >
                                                        > The Eckankar definition for "Mahanta" does not
                                                        > appear in The Path of the Masters far as I can
                                                        > tell. The large caps form of MAHANTA was trade-
                                                        > marked by Eckankar corporation probably in the
                                                        > later 60s.
                                                        >
                                                        > Chapter 3 of The Path of the Masters, by Julian
                                                        > Johnson (called: The Masters and Their Duties),
                                                        > on p. 178 has "The Masters themselves divide all
                                                        > mahatmas into four classes:"
                                                        >
                                                        > The classes are written in italics and are called:
                                                        > sikh, sadhu, sant, and param sant.
                                                        >
                                                        > Over on p. 179: it appears (to me) that Johnson
                                                        > used the words Satguru & param sant somewhat
                                                        > synomymously. So he doesn't appear to use the
                                                        > word Mahanta, but Mahatma. Eckankar decided
                                                        > to use the word Mahanta (instead of Mahatma) -
                                                        > it appears to me - in the title of it's leadership. It
                                                        > also coined a somewhat unique meaning for the
                                                        > word, in my opinion.
                                                        >
                                                        > The Eckankar Lexicon definition for Sat Guru
                                                        > has near the end; See also Living ECK Master;
                                                        > Mahanta. So regardless the word used, to me
                                                        > it looks like each group became partial to one
                                                        > term or another. Even when the meanings are
                                                        > generically (for the most part) the same - and
                                                        > used for a similar designation. I've seen in my
                                                        > research synonymous definitions spelled out
                                                        > for both mahatma and mahanta on some Web
                                                        > sites. So I wonder how similar they really are.
                                                        >
                                                        > Etznab
                                                        >
                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                        > From: yoga_nidra <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Sent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 3:27 pm
                                                        > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                                        Maybe.
                                                        > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                        >
                                                        >  
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee
                                                        > thomaslee40@ wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order
                                                        to
                                                        > create new terms for his new religion.
                                                        > > He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma.
                                                        The
                                                        > word Mahatma means great soul. It was used by Theosophy to
                                                        describe a
                                                        > highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of
                                                        > individuals. A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master.
                                                        >
                                                        > Twitchell didn't coin the term "mahanta," as it's a sanskrit word
                                                        that
                                                        > means "grand." Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism,
                                                        though
                                                        > Twitchell's use of the term as Grand Poobah of the Universe is
                                                        > something he himself came up with.
                                                        >
                                                        > Mahanta can also be a name.
                                                        >
                                                        > http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Mahanta.html
                                                        >
                                                        > Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta? Most likely from Julian
                                                        > Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                        a
                                                        > book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with.
                                                        >
                                                        > http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=9297157
                                                        >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > ________________________________
                                                        > > From: "etznab@" etznab@
                                                        > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > > Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                                        > > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                        > Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                                        > > the first time I sent this.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                                        > > as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                                        > > myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                                        > > prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                                        > > of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                                        > > word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                                        > > by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                                        > > and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                                        > > published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                                        > > (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                                        > > "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                                        > > of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                                        > > sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                                        > > in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)
                                                        > >
                                                        > > The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                                        > > the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                                        > > used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                                        > > and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                                        > > 1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                                        > > 1970, I believe.)
                                                        > >
                                                        > > So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                                        > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                                        > > And when did it first become associated with a person?"
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                                        > > tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                                        > > have been familiar with that term.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                                        > > to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                                        > > Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                                        > > association with a person might have evolved for
                                                        > > legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                                        > > usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                                        > > applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                                        > > know who was the head of it.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                                        > > consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                                        > > evolved to become associated with one single
                                                        > > person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                                        > > the Eckankar organization exists at a time?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                                        > > well for history (IMO).
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Etznab
                                                        > >
                                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                                        > > From: tomleafeater tianyue@earthlink. net>
                                                        > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                        > > Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                                        > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                        Greater.
                                                        > Maybe.
                                                        > > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Jonathan,
                                                        > >
                                                        > > One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain
                                                        > principles
                                                        > > or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he
                                                        claimed
                                                        > such
                                                        > > things as "people should not worship the personality. " But
                                                        then
                                                        > he
                                                        > > contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master
                                                        of
                                                        > the
                                                        > > Universe.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he
                                                        > referred to
                                                        > > the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned,
                                                        that
                                                        > > indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person,
                                                        he
                                                        > is
                                                        > > thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta,
                                                        the
                                                        > Living
                                                        > > Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is
                                                        not
                                                        > the
                                                        > > body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to
                                                        the
                                                        > > Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as
                                                        LIVING,
                                                        > > indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating
                                                        personality)
                                                        > and on
                                                        > > the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive
                                                        > dissonance
                                                        > > in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of
                                                        him,
                                                        > the
                                                        > > man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he
                                                        was
                                                        > > introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he
                                                        went on
                                                        > > stage.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the
                                                        truth
                                                        > is,
                                                        > > for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that
                                                        > title, and
                                                        > > is introduced with that title, and identified in writings
                                                        with
                                                        > that
                                                        > > title.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because
                                                        Eckankar is
                                                        > built
                                                        > > around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can
                                                        > either
                                                        > > give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick
                                                        you
                                                        > out of
                                                        > > eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization.
                                                        That
                                                        > > personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can
                                                        > remove
                                                        > > the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!
                                                        > >
                                                        > > It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny
                                                        this,
                                                        > but
                                                        > > the evidence is blatantly clear.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will
                                                        answer it
                                                        > for
                                                        > > you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off
                                                        other
                                                        > > author's writings to create his own path so that he could be
                                                        the
                                                        > chief
                                                        > > personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative
                                                        > tactics
                                                        > > aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his
                                                        followers. The
                                                        > > facts bear this out.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim
                                                        > otherwise.
                                                        > > And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this,
                                                        > because it
                                                        > > is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you
                                                        don't
                                                        > "concern
                                                        > > yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just
                                                        where
                                                        > do
                                                        > > you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not?
                                                        Pardon
                                                        > me if
                                                        > > I say you seem a bit conflicted.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what
                                                        you're
                                                        > not
                                                        > > ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make
                                                        the
                                                        > final
                                                        > > decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the
                                                        > relationship, and
                                                        > > realize it to be what it is: A fraud.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Speaking for myself only,
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Leaf
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                        > > <no_reply@ ...> wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Leaf,
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He
                                                        emphasized
                                                        > that
                                                        > > people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that
                                                        he
                                                        > didn't
                                                        > > want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that
                                                        is
                                                        > the
                                                        > > impression that I got.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please
                                                        post
                                                        > them
                                                        > > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message
                                                        board. I
                                                        > don't
                                                        > > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from
                                                        > someone who
                                                        > > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that
                                                        you may
                                                        > have
                                                        > > already posted this.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member
                                                        of
                                                        > > Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't
                                                        even
                                                        > > concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us
                                                        is our
                                                        > own
                                                        > > master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual
                                                        > unfoldment.
                                                        > > Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND
                                                        starts
                                                        > > acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal
                                                        > unfoldment,
                                                        > > that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and
                                                        all
                                                        > the
                                                        > > other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act
                                                        like
                                                        > they
                                                        > > are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should
                                                        look
                                                        > at
                                                        > > themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the
                                                        end, I
                                                        > > don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved
                                                        than
                                                        > their
                                                        > > followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I
                                                        > should be
                                                        > > concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other
                                                        people's.
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > Jonathan
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                                        > > <tianyue@ > wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Jonathan,
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion
                                                        you
                                                        > have
                                                        > > that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and
                                                        that you
                                                        > > think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                                        egotistical, "
                                                        > I
                                                        > > just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was
                                                        alive,
                                                        > your
                                                        > > assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that
                                                        > impression
                                                        > > about Twitchell?
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as
                                                        > Klemp,
                                                        > > and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell.
                                                        While in
                                                        > > today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run
                                                        the
                                                        > org,
                                                        > > PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji
                                                        full
                                                        > size
                                                        > > wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad
                                                        nauseum.
                                                        > People
                                                        > > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would
                                                        stand
                                                        > in
                                                        > > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan"
                                                        and to
                                                        > > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity,
                                                        and
                                                        > would
                                                        > > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you
                                                        feel the
                                                        > > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                                        > > omniscient, capable of anything.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a
                                                        Master, or
                                                        > was
                                                        > > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by
                                                        inner
                                                        > > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up
                                                        all
                                                        > > doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                                        > > principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is
                                                        > responsible
                                                        > > for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the
                                                        same
                                                        > time, He
                                                        > > must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
                                                        > faiths are
                                                        > > also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and
                                                        looks at
                                                        > the
                                                        > > major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of
                                                        mankind
                                                        > as
                                                        > > part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the
                                                        human
                                                        > race.
                                                        > > Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to
                                                        the
                                                        > human
                                                        > > race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual
                                                        affairs of
                                                        > life
                                                        > > on other planets and universes, that of the beings and
                                                        entities
                                                        > within
                                                        > > the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the
                                                        higher
                                                        > > planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is
                                                        > light-hearted
                                                        > > at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions,
                                                        He is
                                                        > ever
                                                        > > in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those
                                                        nearest
                                                        > His
                                                        > > heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and
                                                        > universes.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the
                                                        > world
                                                        > > savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all
                                                        psychic
                                                        > > planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the
                                                        Worlds
                                                        > of
                                                        > > God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk
                                                        with,
                                                        > but the
                                                        > > spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is
                                                        the
                                                        > > spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He
                                                        is the
                                                        > ECK
                                                        > > Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the
                                                        > spiritual
                                                        > > essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and
                                                        > Mercy, He
                                                        > > is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and
                                                        which
                                                        > is
                                                        > > the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta
                                                        in
                                                        > every
                                                        > > man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other
                                                        forms of
                                                        > > life. His physical body is the only representation of the
                                                        channel
                                                        > > through which the ECK flows. "
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                        jonathanjohns96
                                                        > > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > Harrison,
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > "You are your own master" simply means that
                                                        YOU are
                                                        > in
                                                        > > charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In
                                                        other
                                                        > words,
                                                        > > nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own
                                                        responsibility
                                                        > to
                                                        > > someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you
                                                        > because
                                                        > > YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my
                                                        reply I
                                                        > > already told you,
                                                        > > > > > when you realize that you are your own master
                                                        > you're not
                                                        > > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better
                                                        than
                                                        > > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with
                                                        you
                                                        > that
                                                        > > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I
                                                        > understand
                                                        > > why you have major problems with it.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading
                                                        my
                                                        > > response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had
                                                        any
                                                        > ego.
                                                        > > They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the
                                                        > least.
                                                        > > There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was
                                                        > reported to
                                                        > > have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a
                                                        question."
                                                        > The
                                                        > > Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and
                                                        ask
                                                        > your
                                                        > > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > Actually, it is the East where the most
                                                        extreme
                                                        > worship
                                                        > > of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is
                                                        easy
                                                        > to
                                                        > > see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually
                                                        tried
                                                        > to
                                                        > > tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has
                                                        become
                                                        > more
                                                        > > egotistical.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I
                                                        am
                                                        > God
                                                        > > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start
                                                        > worshiping
                                                        > > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God
                                                        > realized" and
                                                        > > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed
                                                        the
                                                        > test"
                                                        > > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > The people who realize that they are their own
                                                        > master
                                                        > > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on
                                                        their
                                                        > own
                                                        > > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who
                                                        have
                                                        > "passed
                                                        > > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of
                                                        looking
                                                        > at
                                                        > > things.
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > Jonathan
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                        > harrisonferrel
                                                        > > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as
                                                        a
                                                        > person,
                                                        > > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but
                                                        your
                                                        > reply
                                                        > > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge
                                                        or
                                                        > > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the
                                                        same
                                                        > > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar �
                                                        assumptions
                                                        > and
                                                        > > rationalization.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we
                                                        are
                                                        > blue
                                                        > > in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses
                                                        > based on
                                                        > > no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion
                                                        that
                                                        > the
                                                        > > mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than
                                                        not,
                                                        > there
                                                        > > is no reason to read into these images anything more than the
                                                        > workings
                                                        > > of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase,
                                                        > "Sometimes a
                                                        > > cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything
                                                        > close to
                                                        > > a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he
                                                        or
                                                        > she is
                                                        > > a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect.
                                                        It
                                                        > has
                                                        > > little meaning in the West.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora
                                                        of
                                                        > images
                                                        > > and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world.
                                                        By
                                                        > > analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a
                                                        > canvas. If
                                                        > > you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that
                                                        holds a
                                                        > > message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any
                                                        evidence
                                                        > to
                                                        > > back up your claims.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at
                                                        the
                                                        > time I
                                                        > > read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the
                                                        hope of
                                                        > > something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book
                                                        isn't
                                                        > very
                                                        > > good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got
                                                        far
                                                        > more out
                                                        > > of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with
                                                        this
                                                        > > forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar
                                                        > overtones.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and
                                                        > visions,
                                                        > > you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and
                                                        you
                                                        > don't
                                                        > > know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is
                                                        like a
                                                        > > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis
                                                        based on
                                                        > a
                                                        > > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong
                                                        to do.
                                                        > It's
                                                        > > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to
                                                        guess
                                                        > that
                                                        > > he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the
                                                        perpetuation of
                                                        > > klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                                        > > candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations
                                                        for
                                                        > > experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer
                                                        > folly.
                                                        > > But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own
                                                        imagery
                                                        > or
                                                        > > "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my
                                                        > original
                                                        > > post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving
                                                        people
                                                        > of
                                                        > > their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of
                                                        > truth.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                        > > jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > Harrison,
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were
                                                        > real. And
                                                        > > I believe that they were just for you. They were almost
                                                        certainly
                                                        > > telling you that "You are a master too." That is something
                                                        that
                                                        > Ford
                                                        > > Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford
                                                        only
                                                        > because
                                                        > > a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have
                                                        not
                                                        > had the
                                                        > > time to read his book.
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > So getting back to your inner
                                                        > experiences.
                                                        > > They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that
                                                        this
                                                        > type
                                                        > > of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it
                                                        > mildly).
                                                        > > So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just
                                                        for you
                                                        > > only) were telling you that were you were getting close to
                                                        the
                                                        > time
                                                        > > when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you
                                                        > about one
                                                        > > thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that
                                                        "You are
                                                        > your
                                                        > > own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and
                                                        (1)
                                                        > think
                                                        > > that you are superior to others or (2) start your own
                                                        religion. It
                                                        > was
                                                        > > just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own
                                                        destiny
                                                        > and (2)
                                                        > > you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > From this point on I am no longer
                                                        talking
                                                        > > about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general
                                                        > discussion.
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book
                                                        was
                                                        > > hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported
                                                        Twitchell's
                                                        > > experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the
                                                        way.
                                                        > The
                                                        > > problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                                        > > experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And
                                                        worse
                                                        > than
                                                        > > that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they
                                                        generally
                                                        > have no
                                                        > > clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is
                                                        going
                                                        > on is
                                                        > > the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that
                                                        to
                                                        > the
                                                        > > benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that
                                                        > didn't
                                                        > > match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > I still remember something that I
                                                        read on
                                                        > the
                                                        > > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a
                                                        story
                                                        > about
                                                        > > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and
                                                        promptly
                                                        > left
                                                        > > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the
                                                        emphatically put
                                                        > it,
                                                        > > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how
                                                        the
                                                        > > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for
                                                        you
                                                        > there.
                                                        > > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > So lots of people have inner
                                                        experiences
                                                        > > contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And
                                                        when
                                                        > they
                                                        > > do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I
                                                        think
                                                        > it is
                                                        > > actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar,
                                                        but it
                                                        > is
                                                        > > rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or
                                                        > people
                                                        > > are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not
                                                        > specifically
                                                        > > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about
                                                        possible
                                                        > > reasons.
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all
                                                        the
                                                        > books
                                                        > > in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner
                                                        > experiences
                                                        > > made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta
                                                        Stone
                                                        > Of
                                                        > > God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard
                                                        Eck
                                                        > book.
                                                        > > I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
                                                        > another
                                                        > > example of somebody having different experiences, and before
                                                        you
                                                        > know
                                                        > > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > Jonathan
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups.
                                                        com,
                                                        > > harrisonferrel <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was
                                                        > completely
                                                        > > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the
                                                        > contents of
                                                        > > my contemplations made me something superior to all human
                                                        beings,
                                                        > > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                                        > > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain
                                                        terms
                                                        > that
                                                        > > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was
                                                        on a
                                                        > > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the
                                                        major
                                                        > events
                                                        > > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > So what do you do with this
                                                        kind of
                                                        > thing?
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded
                                                        person,
                                                        > a
                                                        > > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order
                                                        of
                                                        > deranged
                                                        > > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a
                                                        little
                                                        > bell
                                                        > > that made me question everything about eckankar and the
                                                        deluded
                                                        > nutjob
                                                        > > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose
                                                        fantastic
                                                        > > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
                                                        > un-believe-able.
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > When you have experiences that
                                                        show
                                                        > you
                                                        > > to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are
                                                        > quick to
                                                        > > tell you it's because you need the light or some other such
                                                        crap.
                                                        > When
                                                        > > you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to
                                                        do
                                                        > with
                                                        > > you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It
                                                        scares
                                                        > them
                                                        > > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's
                                                        scary and
                                                        > > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and
                                                        all
                                                        > other
                                                        > > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy
                                                        of
                                                        > much of
                                                        > > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is
                                                        just
                                                        > > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do
                                                        with
                                                        > any
                                                        > > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind
                                                        would
                                                        > want
                                                        > > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon
                                                        a
                                                        > > satisfying answer.
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > Why people believe klemp,
                                                        twitchell
                                                        > or
                                                        > > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart
                                                        mind.
                                                        > It
                                                        > > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was
                                                        amazed,
                                                        > years
                                                        > > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I
                                                        found a
                                                        > > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
                                                        subject
                                                        > > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I
                                                        thought.
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with
                                                        > eckankar,
                                                        > > I left and looked into just about every other possible
                                                        explanation
                                                        > for
                                                        > > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that
                                                        > eckankar, as
                                                        > > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing
                                                        definitions
                                                        > for old
                                                        > > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced
                                                        in
                                                        > the
                                                        > > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
                                                        people
                                                        > in
                                                        > > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown
                                                        > innumerable
                                                        > > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > Serious delving into the human
                                                        mind,
                                                        > > Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and
                                                        the
                                                        > > imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is
                                                        a
                                                        > > metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an
                                                        encouraging,
                                                        > (and in
                                                        > > too many cases) believable, explanation for past life
                                                        "memories,"
                                                        > out
                                                        > > of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > I can only imagine that if
                                                        harold
                                                        > klemp
                                                        > > had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had
                                                        he
                                                        > would
                                                        > > take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already
                                                        > distorted
                                                        > > sense of self.
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to
                                                        say the
                                                        > > least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the
                                                        cult
                                                        > with
                                                        > > an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become
                                                        > better
                                                        > > people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree
                                                        with
                                                        > the
                                                        > > diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some
                                                        good
                                                        > to
                                                        > > give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar
                                                        and
                                                        > cheat
                                                        > > at the helm.
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                      • thomas lee
                                                        The entire book The Path of the Masters can be read online for free at this site: http://www.archive.org/details/ThePathOfTheMasters I did a search in
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Apr 18, 2010
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          The entire book  "The Path of the Masters" can be read online for free at this site:   http://www.archive.org/details/ThePathOfTheMasters

                                                          I did a search in this book using Google Books
                                                          > the word Mahanta does not appear in this book
                                                          > there are a few occurrences of the word Mahatma in this book 
                                                          http://books.google.com/books?lr=&cd=2&id=ZecSAAAAMAAJ&dq=path+of+masters+johnson&q=mahatma#search_anchor

                                                          I did a general search for Mahanta in all available books using Google Books
                                                          > the word Mahanta is a common last name in India
                                                          > I found this book in which the term Mahanta appears to be used as a spiritual
                                                          title for a person in India
                                                          http://books.google.com/books?id=pSMLz85WO1QC&pg=PA4&dq=mahanta&lr=&cd=45#v=onepage&q=mahanta&f=false    



                                                          From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
                                                          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 4:27:03 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                                           


                                                          OK. But that website had a quote by me. And
                                                          it said then, as I said the other day, I don't be-
                                                          lieve "mahanta" is in Johnson's book. I said the
                                                          word in Johnson's book was "mahatma".

                                                          Example:

                                                          Why does this interest me? Because I also
                                                          recall finding the word devotee and/or devotion
                                                          used to describe the word "mahatma". This is
                                                          the word that appears in Julian Johnson's book.
                                                          I don't believe the word "mahanta" is there - in
                                                          Path of the Masters.

                                                          http://www.jlaforum s.com/viewtopic. php?p=9297157

                                                          Etznab

                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: yoga_nidra <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                                                          To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                          Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 1:25 am
                                                          Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                                          Excuse me if this post is a repeat

                                                           

                                                          --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, etznab@... wrote:
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; "Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta?
                                                          &gt; Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta
                                                          &gt; is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                          &gt; a book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with."
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; A word in Julian Johnson's book is mahatma,
                                                          &gt; not mahanta. I don't know that mahanta is in
                                                          &gt; that book - The Path of the Masters.

                                                          I don't know for sure either, I was taking the word of the website I
                                                          cited.

                                                          Here is something David Lane wrote:

                                                          "When Twitchell first started writing about Eckankar he more or less
                                                          used terminology which was based upon shabd yoga. However, he quickly
                                                          began to take on terms which were not in Radhasoami literature and
                                                          incorporate them into the larger theology of Eckankar, as witnessed in
                                                          The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad. In so doing he made Eckankar an eclectic
                                                          teaching, even though its major emphasis was Indian in origin. The term
                                                          Mahanta is a case in point. Although the term usually translates as
                                                          "one who is in charge of a temple" or "head of an ashram," Twitchell
                                                          utilized it as meaning: "The Living Eck Master.""

                                                          http://webspace. webring.com/ people/de/ eckcult/rsch3. html

                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; (If someone happens to find mahanta listed
                                                          &gt; in POTM, please cite page number.)
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; Here is something else to consider about the
                                                          &gt; knowledge of Sanskrit familiar to Eckankar in
                                                          &gt; its formative stages.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; A June 1980 letter by Louis Bluth has, in part:
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; "[....] He [Paul Twitchell] borrowed my books
                                                          &gt; on Radha Soami and copied a large share from
                                                          &gt; them. I helped him write the Herb book and went
                                                          &gt; to Riverside University and took Sanskrit, so
                                                          &gt; basically much of the material is good because
                                                          &gt; it is copied. [....]"
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/eckankarhi story/message/ 1434
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; What this tells me is that Dr. Louis Bluth - the
                                                          &gt; president of Eckankar in the early years - was
                                                          &gt; familiar with Sanskrit. I think it was about 1966
                                                          &gt; when Bluth met Paul Twitchell. I think L. Bluth
                                                          &gt; was a former Radha Soami student of about 17
                                                          &gt; years!
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; "In a lecture by Bluth that I attended, Bluth stated
                                                          &gt; that he followed Radhasoami for 17 years before he
                                                          &gt; joined Eckankar. Bluth was an acupuncturist as well
                                                          &gt; as an MD (a bit of trivia for you, Etznab.) He was
                                                          &gt; rather full of himself, in my view. - Tianyue
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; [Based on A.R.E. post 03/09/10]
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt;
                                                          http://groups. google.com/ group/alt. religion. eckankar/ browse_thread/ thread/9a1844ccb 34936ef?hl= en#
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; BTW. The appearance of "mahanta" in Eckankar
                                                          &gt; publications apparently didn't surface until 1968,
                                                          &gt; or 1969.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; In 1969 the word appeared in The Flute of God and
                                                          &gt; in 1969 the large caps version appeared in Wisdom
                                                          &gt; Notes.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; For some reason this word was chosen and then
                                                          &gt; became popular around 1968 and 1969. And this
                                                          &gt; was joined to the words "Living Eck Master".
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; The Eckankar definition for "Mahanta" does not
                                                          &gt; appear in The Path of the Masters far as I can
                                                          &gt; tell. The large caps form of MAHANTA was trade-
                                                          &gt; marked by Eckankar corporation probably in the
                                                          &gt; later 60s.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; Chapter 3 of The Path of the Masters, by Julian
                                                          &gt; Johnson (called: The Masters and Their Duties),
                                                          &gt; on p. 178 has "The Masters themselves divide all
                                                          &gt; mahatmas into four classes:"
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; The classes are written in italics and are called:
                                                          &gt; sikh, sadhu, sant, and param sant.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; Over on p. 179: it appears (to me) that Johnson
                                                          &gt; used the words Satguru & param sant somewhat
                                                          &gt; synomymously. So he doesn't appear to use the
                                                          &gt; word Mahanta, but Mahatma. Eckankar decided
                                                          &gt; to use the word Mahanta (instead of Mahatma) -
                                                          &gt; it appears to me - in the title of it's leadership. It
                                                          &gt; also coined a somewhat unique meaning for the
                                                          &gt; word, in my opinion.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; The Eckankar Lexicon definition for Sat Guru
                                                          &gt; has near the end; See also Living ECK Master;
                                                          &gt; Mahanta. So regardless the word used, to me
                                                          &gt; it looks like each group became partial to one
                                                          &gt; term or another. Even when the meanings are
                                                          &gt; generically (for the most part) the same - and
                                                          &gt; used for a similar designation. I've seen in my
                                                          &gt; research synonymous definitions spelled out
                                                          &gt; for both mahatma and mahanta on some Web
                                                          &gt; sites. So I wonder how similar they really are.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; Etznab
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; -----Original Message-----
                                                          &gt; From: yoga_nidra &lt;no_reply@yahoogroup s.com&gt;
                                                          &gt; To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                          &gt; Sent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 3:27 pm
                                                          &gt; Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                                          Maybe.
                                                          &gt; Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt;  
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee
                                                          &gt; thomaslee40@ wrote:
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order
                                                          to
                                                          &gt; create new terms for his new religion.
                                                          &gt; &gt; He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma.
                                                          The
                                                          &gt; word Mahatma means great soul. It was used by Theosophy to
                                                          describe a
                                                          &gt; highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of
                                                          &gt; individuals. A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; Twitchell didn't coin the term "mahanta," as it's a sanskrit word
                                                          that
                                                          &gt; means "grand." Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism,
                                                          though
                                                          &gt; Twitchell's use of the term as Grand Poobah of the Universe is
                                                          &gt; something he himself came up with.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; Mahanta can also be a name.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; http://babynameswor ld.parentsconnec t.com/meaning_ of_Mahanta. html
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta? Most likely from Julian
                                                          &gt; Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                          a
                                                          &gt; book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with.
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; http://www.jlaforum s.com/viewtopic. php?p=9297157
                                                          &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                          &gt; &gt; From: "etznab@" etznab@
                                                          &gt; &gt; To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                          &gt; &gt; Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                                          &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                          &gt; Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                                          &gt; &gt; the first time I sent this.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                                          &gt; &gt; as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                                          &gt; &gt; myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                                          &gt; &gt; prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                                          &gt; &gt; of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                                          &gt; &gt; word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                                          &gt; &gt; by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                                          &gt; &gt; and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                                          &gt; &gt; published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                                          &gt; &gt; (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                                          &gt; &gt; "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                                          &gt; &gt; of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                                          &gt; &gt; sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                                          &gt; &gt; in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                                          &gt; &gt; the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                                          &gt; &gt; used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                                          &gt; &gt; and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                                          &gt; &gt; 1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                                          &gt; &gt; 1970, I believe.)
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                                          &gt; &gt; "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                                          &gt; &gt; And when did it first become associated with a person?"
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                                          &gt; &gt; tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                                          &gt; &gt; have been familiar with that term.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                                          &gt; &gt; to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                                          &gt; &gt; Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                                          &gt; &gt; association with a person might have evolved for
                                                          &gt; &gt; legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                                          &gt; &gt; usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                                          &gt; &gt; applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                                          &gt; &gt; know who was the head of it.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                                          &gt; &gt; consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                                          &gt; &gt; evolved to become associated with one single
                                                          &gt; &gt; person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                                          &gt; &gt; the Eckankar organization exists at a time?
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                                          &gt; &gt; well for history (IMO).
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Etznab
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----
                                                          &gt; &gt; From: tomleafeater tianyue@earthlink. net&gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                          &gt; &gt; Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                                          &gt; &gt; Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                          Greater.
                                                          &gt; Maybe.
                                                          &gt; &gt; Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Jonathan,
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain
                                                          &gt; principles
                                                          &gt; &gt; or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he
                                                          claimed
                                                          &gt; such
                                                          &gt; &gt; things as "people should not worship the personality. " But
                                                          then
                                                          &gt; he
                                                          &gt; &gt; contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master
                                                          of
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; Universe.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he
                                                          &gt; referred to
                                                          &gt; &gt; the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned,
                                                          that
                                                          &gt; &gt; indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person,
                                                          he
                                                          &gt; is
                                                          &gt; &gt; thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta,
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; Living
                                                          &gt; &gt; Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is
                                                          not
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; &gt; Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as
                                                          LIVING,
                                                          &gt; &gt; indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating
                                                          personality)
                                                          &gt; and on
                                                          &gt; &gt; the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive
                                                          &gt; dissonance
                                                          &gt; &gt; in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of
                                                          him,
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he
                                                          was
                                                          &gt; &gt; introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he
                                                          went on
                                                          &gt; &gt; stage.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the
                                                          truth
                                                          &gt; is,
                                                          &gt; &gt; for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that
                                                          &gt; title, and
                                                          &gt; &gt; is introduced with that title, and identified in writings
                                                          with
                                                          &gt; that
                                                          &gt; &gt; title.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because
                                                          Eckankar is
                                                          &gt; built
                                                          &gt; &gt; around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can
                                                          &gt; either
                                                          &gt; &gt; give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick
                                                          you
                                                          &gt; out of
                                                          &gt; &gt; eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization.
                                                          That
                                                          &gt; &gt; personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can
                                                          &gt; remove
                                                          &gt; &gt; the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny
                                                          this,
                                                          &gt; but
                                                          &gt; &gt; the evidence is blatantly clear.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will
                                                          answer it
                                                          &gt; for
                                                          &gt; &gt; you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off
                                                          other
                                                          &gt; &gt; author's writings to create his own path so that he could be
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; chief
                                                          &gt; &gt; personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative
                                                          &gt; tactics
                                                          &gt; &gt; aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his
                                                          followers. The
                                                          &gt; &gt; facts bear this out.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim
                                                          &gt; otherwise.
                                                          &gt; &gt; And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this,
                                                          &gt; because it
                                                          &gt; &gt; is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you
                                                          don't
                                                          &gt; "concern
                                                          &gt; &gt; yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just
                                                          where
                                                          &gt; do
                                                          &gt; &gt; you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not?
                                                          Pardon
                                                          &gt; me if
                                                          &gt; &gt; I say you seem a bit conflicted.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what
                                                          you're
                                                          &gt; not
                                                          &gt; &gt; ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; final
                                                          &gt; &gt; decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the
                                                          &gt; relationship, and
                                                          &gt; &gt; realize it to be what it is: A fraud.
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Speaking for myself only,
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; Leaf
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                          &gt; &gt; &lt;no_reply@ ...&gt; wrote:
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; Leaf,
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He
                                                          emphasized
                                                          &gt; that
                                                          &gt; &gt; people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that
                                                          he
                                                          &gt; didn't
                                                          &gt; &gt; want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that
                                                          is
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; impression that I got.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; If you have other observations on Twitchell then please
                                                          post
                                                          &gt; them
                                                          &gt; &gt; because I see them as a welcome addition to this message
                                                          board. I
                                                          &gt; don't
                                                          &gt; &gt; know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from
                                                          &gt; someone who
                                                          &gt; &gt; was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that
                                                          you may
                                                          &gt; have
                                                          &gt; &gt; already posted this.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member
                                                          of
                                                          &gt; &gt; Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't
                                                          even
                                                          &gt; &gt; concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us
                                                          is our
                                                          &gt; own
                                                          &gt; &gt; master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual
                                                          &gt; unfoldment.
                                                          &gt; &gt; Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND
                                                          starts
                                                          &gt; &gt; acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal
                                                          &gt; unfoldment,
                                                          &gt; &gt; that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and
                                                          all
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act
                                                          like
                                                          &gt; they
                                                          &gt; &gt; are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should
                                                          look
                                                          &gt; at
                                                          &gt; &gt; themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the
                                                          end, I
                                                          &gt; &gt; don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved
                                                          than
                                                          &gt; their
                                                          &gt; &gt; followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I
                                                          &gt; should be
                                                          &gt; &gt; concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other
                                                          people's.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                                          &gt; &gt; &lt;tianyue@ &gt; wrote:
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan,
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; In regards to worship of masters, and the notion
                                                          you
                                                          &gt; have
                                                          &gt; &gt; that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and
                                                          that you
                                                          &gt; &gt; think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                                          egotistical, "
                                                          &gt; I
                                                          &gt; &gt; just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was
                                                          alive,
                                                          &gt; your
                                                          &gt; &gt; assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that
                                                          &gt; impression
                                                          &gt; &gt; about Twitchell?
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as
                                                          &gt; Klemp,
                                                          &gt; &gt; and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell.
                                                          While in
                                                          &gt; &gt; today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; org,
                                                          &gt; &gt; PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji
                                                          full
                                                          &gt; size
                                                          &gt; &gt; wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad
                                                          nauseum.
                                                          &gt; People
                                                          &gt; &gt; practically fainted when he came into the room. They would
                                                          stand
                                                          &gt; in
                                                          &gt; &gt; line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan"
                                                          and to
                                                          &gt; &gt; shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity,
                                                          and
                                                          &gt; would
                                                          &gt; &gt; gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you
                                                          feel the
                                                          &gt; &gt; shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                                          &gt; &gt; omniscient, capable of anything.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a
                                                          Master, or
                                                          &gt; was
                                                          &gt; &gt; enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by
                                                          inner
                                                          &gt; &gt; masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up
                                                          all
                                                          &gt; &gt; doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                                          &gt; &gt; principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is
                                                          &gt; responsible
                                                          &gt; &gt; for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the
                                                          same
                                                          &gt; time, He
                                                          &gt; &gt; must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
                                                          &gt; faiths are
                                                          &gt; &gt; also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and
                                                          looks at
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of
                                                          mankind
                                                          &gt; as
                                                          &gt; &gt; part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the
                                                          human
                                                          &gt; race.
                                                          &gt; &gt; Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; human
                                                          &gt; &gt; race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual
                                                          affairs of
                                                          &gt; life
                                                          &gt; &gt; on other planets and universes, that of the beings and
                                                          entities
                                                          &gt; within
                                                          &gt; &gt; the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the
                                                          higher
                                                          &gt; &gt; planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is
                                                          &gt; light-hearted
                                                          &gt; &gt; at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions,
                                                          He is
                                                          &gt; ever
                                                          &gt; &gt; in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those
                                                          nearest
                                                          &gt; His
                                                          &gt; &gt; heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and
                                                          &gt; universes.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the
                                                          &gt; world
                                                          &gt; &gt; savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all
                                                          psychic
                                                          &gt; &gt; planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the
                                                          Worlds
                                                          &gt; of
                                                          &gt; &gt; God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk
                                                          with,
                                                          &gt; but the
                                                          &gt; &gt; spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; &gt; spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He
                                                          is the
                                                          &gt; ECK
                                                          &gt; &gt; Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the
                                                          &gt; spiritual
                                                          &gt; &gt; essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and
                                                          &gt; Mercy, He
                                                          &gt; &gt; is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and
                                                          which
                                                          &gt; is
                                                          &gt; &gt; the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta
                                                          in
                                                          &gt; every
                                                          &gt; &gt; man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other
                                                          forms of
                                                          &gt; &gt; life. His physical body is the only representation of the
                                                          channel
                                                          &gt; &gt; through which the ECK flows. "
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                          jonathanjohns96
                                                          &gt; &gt; &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Harrison,
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; "You are your own master" simply means that
                                                          YOU are
                                                          &gt; in
                                                          &gt; &gt; charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In
                                                          other
                                                          &gt; words,
                                                          &gt; &gt; nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own
                                                          responsibility
                                                          &gt; to
                                                          &gt; &gt; someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you
                                                          &gt; because
                                                          &gt; &gt; YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; You went off on the word "master" but in my
                                                          reply I
                                                          &gt; &gt; already told you,
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; when you realize that you are your own master
                                                          &gt; you're not
                                                          &gt; &gt; supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better
                                                          than
                                                          &gt; &gt; others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with
                                                          you
                                                          &gt; that
                                                          &gt; &gt; a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I
                                                          &gt; understand
                                                          &gt; &gt; why you have major problems with it.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I know you don't care, but for others reading
                                                          my
                                                          &gt; &gt; response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had
                                                          any
                                                          &gt; ego.
                                                          &gt; &gt; They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the
                                                          &gt; least.
                                                          &gt; &gt; There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was
                                                          &gt; reported to
                                                          &gt; &gt; have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a
                                                          question."
                                                          &gt; The
                                                          &gt; &gt; Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and
                                                          ask
                                                          &gt; your
                                                          &gt; &gt; question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Actually, it is the East where the most
                                                          extreme
                                                          &gt; worship
                                                          &gt; &gt; of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is
                                                          easy
                                                          &gt; to
                                                          &gt; &gt; see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually
                                                          tried
                                                          &gt; to
                                                          &gt; &gt; tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has
                                                          become
                                                          &gt; more
                                                          &gt; &gt; egotistical.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I
                                                          am
                                                          &gt; God
                                                          &gt; &gt; realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start
                                                          &gt; worshiping
                                                          &gt; &gt; the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God
                                                          &gt; realized" and
                                                          &gt; &gt; then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; test"
                                                          &gt; &gt; because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The people who realize that they are their own
                                                          &gt; master
                                                          &gt; &gt; (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on
                                                          their
                                                          &gt; own
                                                          &gt; &gt; without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who
                                                          have
                                                          &gt; "passed
                                                          &gt; &gt; the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of
                                                          looking
                                                          &gt; at
                                                          &gt; &gt; things.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                          &gt; harrisonferrel
                                                          &gt; &gt; &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as
                                                          a
                                                          &gt; person,
                                                          &gt; &gt; because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but
                                                          your
                                                          &gt; reply
                                                          &gt; &gt; sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge
                                                          or
                                                          &gt; &gt; ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the
                                                          same
                                                          &gt; &gt; nonsense that is already well known to eckankar �
                                                          assumptions
                                                          &gt; and
                                                          &gt; &gt; rationalization.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; We can rationalize "experiences" until we
                                                          are
                                                          &gt; blue
                                                          &gt; &gt; in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses
                                                          &gt; based on
                                                          &gt; &gt; no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion
                                                          that
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than
                                                          not,
                                                          &gt; there
                                                          &gt; &gt; is no reason to read into these images anything more than the
                                                          &gt; workings
                                                          &gt; &gt; of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase,
                                                          &gt; "Sometimes a
                                                          &gt; &gt; cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I am not a master of anything or anything
                                                          &gt; close to
                                                          &gt; &gt; a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he
                                                          or
                                                          &gt; she is
                                                          &gt; &gt; a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect.
                                                          It
                                                          &gt; has
                                                          &gt; &gt; little meaning in the West.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; My mind is capable of creating a plethora
                                                          of
                                                          &gt; images
                                                          &gt; &gt; and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world.
                                                          By
                                                          &gt; &gt; analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a
                                                          &gt; canvas. If
                                                          &gt; &gt; you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that
                                                          holds a
                                                          &gt; &gt; message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any
                                                          evidence
                                                          &gt; to
                                                          &gt; &gt; back up your claims.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; time I
                                                          &gt; &gt; read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the
                                                          hope of
                                                          &gt; &gt; something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book
                                                          isn't
                                                          &gt; very
                                                          &gt; &gt; good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got
                                                          far
                                                          &gt; more out
                                                          &gt; &gt; of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with
                                                          this
                                                          &gt; &gt; forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar
                                                          &gt; overtones.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From your analysis of my experiences and
                                                          &gt; visions,
                                                          &gt; &gt; you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and
                                                          you
                                                          &gt; don't
                                                          &gt; &gt; know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is
                                                          like a
                                                          &gt; &gt; psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis
                                                          based on
                                                          &gt; a
                                                          &gt; &gt; single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong
                                                          to do.
                                                          &gt; It's
                                                          &gt; &gt; not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to
                                                          guess
                                                          &gt; that
                                                          &gt; &gt; he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the
                                                          perpetuation of
                                                          &gt; &gt; klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                                          &gt; &gt; candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The idea of coming up with explanations
                                                          for
                                                          &gt; &gt; experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer
                                                          &gt; folly.
                                                          &gt; &gt; But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own
                                                          imagery
                                                          &gt; or
                                                          &gt; &gt; "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my
                                                          &gt; original
                                                          &gt; &gt; post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar does a good job at relieving
                                                          people
                                                          &gt; of
                                                          &gt; &gt; their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of
                                                          &gt; truth.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                          &gt; &gt; jonathanjohns96 &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Harrison,
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I believe you inner experiences were
                                                          &gt; real. And
                                                          &gt; &gt; I believe that they were just for you. They were almost
                                                          certainly
                                                          &gt; &gt; telling you that "You are a master too." That is something
                                                          that
                                                          &gt; Ford
                                                          &gt; &gt; Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford
                                                          only
                                                          &gt; because
                                                          &gt; &gt; a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have
                                                          not
                                                          &gt; had the
                                                          &gt; &gt; time to read his book.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So getting back to your inner
                                                          &gt; experiences.
                                                          &gt; &gt; They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that
                                                          this
                                                          &gt; type
                                                          &gt; &gt; of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it
                                                          &gt; mildly).
                                                          &gt; &gt; So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just
                                                          for you
                                                          &gt; &gt; only) were telling you that were you were getting close to
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; time
                                                          &gt; &gt; when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you
                                                          &gt; about one
                                                          &gt; &gt; thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that
                                                          "You are
                                                          &gt; your
                                                          &gt; &gt; own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and
                                                          (1)
                                                          &gt; think
                                                          &gt; &gt; that you are superior to others or (2) start your own
                                                          religion. It
                                                          &gt; was
                                                          &gt; &gt; just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own
                                                          destiny
                                                          &gt; and (2)
                                                          &gt; &gt; you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From this point on I am no longer
                                                          talking
                                                          &gt; &gt; about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general
                                                          &gt; discussion.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book
                                                          was
                                                          &gt; &gt; hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported
                                                          Twitchell's
                                                          &gt; &gt; experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the
                                                          way.
                                                          &gt; The
                                                          &gt; &gt; problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                                          &gt; &gt; experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And
                                                          worse
                                                          &gt; than
                                                          &gt; &gt; that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they
                                                          generally
                                                          &gt; have no
                                                          &gt; &gt; clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is
                                                          going
                                                          &gt; on is
                                                          &gt; &gt; the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that
                                                          to
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that
                                                          &gt; didn't
                                                          &gt; &gt; match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I still remember something that I
                                                          read on
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a
                                                          story
                                                          &gt; about
                                                          &gt; &gt; how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and
                                                          promptly
                                                          &gt; left
                                                          &gt; &gt; his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the
                                                          emphatically put
                                                          &gt; it,
                                                          &gt; &gt; he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; &gt; exercises always state that the master will be waiting for
                                                          you
                                                          &gt; there.
                                                          &gt; &gt; Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So lots of people have inner
                                                          experiences
                                                          &gt; &gt; contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And
                                                          when
                                                          &gt; they
                                                          &gt; &gt; do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I
                                                          think
                                                          &gt; it is
                                                          &gt; &gt; actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar,
                                                          but it
                                                          &gt; is
                                                          &gt; &gt; rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or
                                                          &gt; people
                                                          &gt; &gt; are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not
                                                          &gt; specifically
                                                          &gt; &gt; talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about
                                                          possible
                                                          &gt; &gt; reasons.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I once told a fellow member that all
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; books
                                                          &gt; &gt; in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner
                                                          &gt; experiences
                                                          &gt; &gt; made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta
                                                          Stone
                                                          &gt; Of
                                                          &gt; &gt; God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard
                                                          Eck
                                                          &gt; book.
                                                          &gt; &gt; I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
                                                          &gt; another
                                                          &gt; &gt; example of somebody having different experiences, and before
                                                          you
                                                          &gt; know
                                                          &gt; &gt; it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jonathan
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups.
                                                          com,
                                                          &gt; &gt; harrisonferrel &lt;no_reply@ &gt; wrote:
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When I was in Eckankar, I was
                                                          &gt; completely
                                                          &gt; &gt; amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the
                                                          &gt; contents of
                                                          &gt; &gt; my contemplations made me something superior to all human
                                                          beings,
                                                          &gt; &gt; including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                                          &gt; &gt; something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain
                                                          terms
                                                          &gt; that
                                                          &gt; &gt; the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was
                                                          on a
                                                          &gt; &gt; throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the
                                                          major
                                                          &gt; events
                                                          &gt; &gt; in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So what do you do with this
                                                          kind of
                                                          &gt; thing?
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Luckily, I am not a deluded
                                                          person,
                                                          &gt; a
                                                          &gt; &gt; narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order
                                                          of
                                                          &gt; deranged
                                                          &gt; &gt; characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a
                                                          little
                                                          &gt; bell
                                                          &gt; &gt; that made me question everything about eckankar and the
                                                          deluded
                                                          &gt; nutjob
                                                          &gt; &gt; pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose
                                                          fantastic
                                                          &gt; &gt; rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
                                                          &gt; un-believe-able.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When you have experiences that
                                                          show
                                                          &gt; you
                                                          &gt; &gt; to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are
                                                          &gt; quick to
                                                          &gt; &gt; tell you it's because you need the light or some other such
                                                          crap.
                                                          &gt; When
                                                          &gt; &gt; you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to
                                                          do
                                                          &gt; with
                                                          &gt; &gt; you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It
                                                          scares
                                                          &gt; them
                                                          &gt; &gt; because they know they are making their shit up, so it's
                                                          scary and
                                                          &gt; &gt; threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I've come to see past lives and
                                                          all
                                                          &gt; other
                                                          &gt; &gt; dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy
                                                          of
                                                          &gt; much of
                                                          &gt; &gt; my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is
                                                          just
                                                          &gt; &gt; nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do
                                                          with
                                                          &gt; any
                                                          &gt; &gt; sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind
                                                          would
                                                          &gt; want
                                                          &gt; &gt; to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon
                                                          a
                                                          &gt; &gt; satisfying answer.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Why people believe klemp,
                                                          twitchell
                                                          &gt; or
                                                          &gt; &gt; morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart
                                                          mind.
                                                          &gt; It
                                                          &gt; &gt; has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was
                                                          amazed,
                                                          &gt; years
                                                          &gt; &gt; ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I
                                                          found a
                                                          &gt; &gt; couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
                                                          subject
                                                          &gt; &gt; matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I
                                                          thought.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Following my 12 year stint with
                                                          &gt; eckankar,
                                                          &gt; &gt; I left and looked into just about every other possible
                                                          explanation
                                                          &gt; for
                                                          &gt; &gt; what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that
                                                          &gt; eckankar, as
                                                          &gt; &gt; a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing
                                                          definitions
                                                          &gt; for old
                                                          &gt; &gt; words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced
                                                          in
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
                                                          people
                                                          &gt; in
                                                          &gt; &gt; this particular posting group who have meticulously shown
                                                          &gt; innumerable
                                                          &gt; &gt; plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Serious delving into the human
                                                          mind,
                                                          &gt; &gt; Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and
                                                          the
                                                          &gt; &gt; imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is
                                                          a
                                                          &gt; &gt; metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an
                                                          encouraging,
                                                          &gt; (and in
                                                          &gt; &gt; too many cases) believable, explanation for past life
                                                          "memories,"
                                                          &gt; out
                                                          &gt; &gt; of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I can only imagine that if
                                                          harold
                                                          &gt; klemp
                                                          &gt; &gt; had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had
                                                          he
                                                          &gt; would
                                                          &gt; &gt; take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already
                                                          &gt; distorted
                                                          &gt; &gt; sense of self.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Eckankar is a disservice, to
                                                          say the
                                                          &gt; &gt; least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the
                                                          cult
                                                          &gt; with
                                                          &gt; &gt; an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become
                                                          &gt; better
                                                          &gt; &gt; people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree
                                                          with
                                                          &gt; the
                                                          &gt; &gt; diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some
                                                          good
                                                          &gt; to
                                                          &gt; &gt; give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar
                                                          and
                                                          &gt; cheat
                                                          &gt; &gt; at the helm.
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt; &gt;
                                                          &gt;


                                                        • yoga_nidra
                                                          nice work just a guess, but maybe the person who thought mahanta is in TPOTM was thinking of eckankar, which is in Johnson s book.
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Apr 18, 2010
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            nice work

                                                            just a guess, but maybe the person who thought "mahanta" is in TPOTM was thinking of "eckankar," which is in Johnson's book.



                                                            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, thomas lee <thomaslee40@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > The entire book "The Path of the Masters" can be read online for free at this site: http://www.archive.org/details/ThePathOfTheMasters
                                                            >
                                                            > I did a search in this book using Google Books
                                                            > > the word Mahanta does not appear in this book
                                                            > > there are a few occurrences of the word Mahatma in this book
                                                            > http://books.google.com/books?lr=&cd=2&id=ZecSAAAAMAAJ&dq=path+of+masters+johnson&q=mahatma#search_anchor
                                                            >
                                                            > I did a general search for Mahanta in all available books using Google Books
                                                            > > the word Mahanta is a common last name in India
                                                            > > I found this book in which the term Mahanta appears to be used as a spiritual
                                                            > title for a person in India
                                                            > http://books.google.com/books?id=pSMLz85WO1QC&pg=PA4&dq=mahanta&lr=&cd=45#v=onepage&q=mahanta&f=false
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > ________________________________
                                                            > From: "etznab@..." <etznab@...>
                                                            > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                                            > Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 4:27:03 PM
                                                            > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > OK. But that website had a quote by me. And
                                                            > it said then, as I said the other day, I don't be-
                                                            > lieve "mahanta" is in Johnson's book. I said the
                                                            > word in Johnson's book was "mahatma".
                                                            >
                                                            > Example:
                                                            >
                                                            > Why does this interest me? Because I also
                                                            > recall finding the word devotee and/or devotion
                                                            > used to describe the word "mahatma". This is
                                                            > the word that appears in Julian Johnson's book.
                                                            > I don't believe the word "mahanta" is there - in
                                                            > Path of the Masters.
                                                            >
                                                            > http://www.jlaforum s.com/viewtopic. php?p=9297157
                                                            >
                                                            > Etznab
                                                            >
                                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                                            > From: yoga_nidra <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                                                            > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                            > Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 1:25 am
                                                            > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater. Maybe.
                                                            > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, etznab@ wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > "Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta?
                                                            > > Most likely from Julian Johnson, as Mahanta
                                                            > > is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                            > > a book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with."
                                                            > >
                                                            > > A word in Julian Johnson's book is mahatma,
                                                            > > not mahanta. I don't know that mahanta is in
                                                            > > that book - The Path of the Masters.
                                                            >
                                                            > I don't know for sure either, I was taking the word of the website I
                                                            > cited.
                                                            >
                                                            > Here is something David Lane wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > "When Twitchell first started writing about Eckankar he more or less
                                                            > used terminology which was based upon shabd yoga. However, he quickly
                                                            > began to take on terms which were not in Radhasoami literature and
                                                            > incorporate them into the larger theology of Eckankar, as witnessed in
                                                            > The Shariyat-Ki- Sugmad. In so doing he made Eckankar an eclectic
                                                            > teaching, even though its major emphasis was Indian in origin. The term
                                                            > Mahanta is a case in point. Although the term usually translates as
                                                            > "one who is in charge of a temple" or "head of an ashram," Twitchell
                                                            > utilized it as meaning: "The Living Eck Master.""
                                                            >
                                                            > http://webspace. webring.com/ people/de/ eckcult/rsch3. html
                                                            >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > (If someone happens to find mahanta listed
                                                            > > in POTM, please cite page number.)
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Here is something else to consider about the
                                                            > > knowledge of Sanskrit familiar to Eckankar in
                                                            > > its formative stages.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > A June 1980 letter by Louis Bluth has, in part:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > "[....] He [Paul Twitchell] borrowed my books
                                                            > > on Radha Soami and copied a large share from
                                                            > > them. I helped him write the Herb book and went
                                                            > > to Riverside University and took Sanskrit, so
                                                            > > basically much of the material is good because
                                                            > > it is copied. [....]"
                                                            > >
                                                            > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/eckankarhi story/message/ 1434
                                                            > >
                                                            > > What this tells me is that Dr. Louis Bluth - the
                                                            > > president of Eckankar in the early years - was
                                                            > > familiar with Sanskrit. I think it was about 1966
                                                            > > when Bluth met Paul Twitchell. I think L. Bluth
                                                            > > was a former Radha Soami student of about 17
                                                            > > years!
                                                            > >
                                                            > > "In a lecture by Bluth that I attended, Bluth stated
                                                            > > that he followed Radhasoami for 17 years before he
                                                            > > joined Eckankar. Bluth was an acupuncturist as well
                                                            > > as an MD (a bit of trivia for you, Etznab.) He was
                                                            > > rather full of himself, in my view. - Tianyue
                                                            > >
                                                            > > [Based on A.R.E. post 03/09/10]
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > http://groups. google.com/ group/alt. religion. eckankar/ browse_thread/ thread/9a1844ccb 34936ef?hl= en#
                                                            > >
                                                            > > BTW. The appearance of "mahanta" in Eckankar
                                                            > > publications apparently didn't surface until 1968,
                                                            > > or 1969.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > In 1969 the word appeared in The Flute of God and
                                                            > > in 1969 the large caps version appeared in Wisdom
                                                            > > Notes.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > For some reason this word was chosen and then
                                                            > > became popular around 1968 and 1969. And this
                                                            > > was joined to the words "Living Eck Master".
                                                            > >
                                                            > > The Eckankar definition for "Mahanta" does not
                                                            > > appear in The Path of the Masters far as I can
                                                            > > tell. The large caps form of MAHANTA was trade-
                                                            > > marked by Eckankar corporation probably in the
                                                            > > later 60s.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Chapter 3 of The Path of the Masters, by Julian
                                                            > > Johnson (called: The Masters and Their Duties),
                                                            > > on p. 178 has "The Masters themselves divide all
                                                            > > mahatmas into four classes:"
                                                            > >
                                                            > > The classes are written in italics and are called:
                                                            > > sikh, sadhu, sant, and param sant.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Over on p. 179: it appears (to me) that Johnson
                                                            > > used the words Satguru & param sant somewhat
                                                            > > synomymously. So he doesn't appear to use the
                                                            > > word Mahanta, but Mahatma. Eckankar decided
                                                            > > to use the word Mahanta (instead of Mahatma) -
                                                            > > it appears to me - in the title of it's leadership. It
                                                            > > also coined a somewhat unique meaning for the
                                                            > > word, in my opinion.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > The Eckankar Lexicon definition for Sat Guru
                                                            > > has near the end; See also Living ECK Master;
                                                            > > Mahanta. So regardless the word used, to me
                                                            > > it looks like each group became partial to one
                                                            > > term or another. Even when the meanings are
                                                            > > generically (for the most part) the same - and
                                                            > > used for a similar designation. I've seen in my
                                                            > > research synonymous definitions spelled out
                                                            > > for both mahatma and mahanta on some Web
                                                            > > sites. So I wonder how similar they really are.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Etznab
                                                            > >
                                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                                            > > From: yoga_nidra no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                                                            > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                            > > Sent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 3:27 pm
                                                            > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something Greater.
                                                            > Maybe.
                                                            > > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Â
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, thomas lee
                                                            > > thomaslee40@ wrote:
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Paul had been known to change the spelling of words in order
                                                            > to
                                                            > > create new terms for his new religion.
                                                            > > > He probably got the idea for Mahanta from the word Mahatma.
                                                            > The
                                                            > > word Mahatma means great soul. It was used by Theosophy to
                                                            > describe a
                                                            > > highly evolved person who would oversee the spiritual growth of
                                                            > > individuals. A Mahatma could also be considered to be a Master.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Twitchell didn't coin the term "mahanta," as it's a sanskrit word
                                                            > that
                                                            > > means "grand." Mahanta is used religious title in hinduism,
                                                            > though
                                                            > > Twitchell's use of the term as Grand Poobah of the Universe is
                                                            > > something he himself came up with.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Mahanta can also be a name.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > http://babynameswor ld.parentsconnec t.com/meaning_ of_Mahanta. html
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Where did Twitchell get the word Mahanta? Most likely from Julian
                                                            > > Johnson, as Mahanta is used in Johnson's The Path of the Masters,
                                                            > a
                                                            > > book Twitchell was undeniably familiar with.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > http://www.jlaforum s.com/viewtopic. php?p=9297157
                                                            > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                                            > > > From: "etznab@" etznab@
                                                            > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                            > > > Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 1:00:19 PM
                                                            > > > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                            > > Greater. Maybe. Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Sorry, Tian Yue. Think I forgot to hit "Reply All"
                                                            > > > the first time I sent this.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Searching evolution for the "Mahanta" term
                                                            > > > as used by Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, I asked
                                                            > > > myself: "What books were published by Eckankar
                                                            > > > prior to its official founding in October 1965? And
                                                            > > > of those publications, which ones mentioned the
                                                            > > > word "mahanta"? (see Forward to The Tiger's Fang,
                                                            > > > by Brad Steiger. It mentions "mahantas".)
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Two books come to mind. Introduction to Eckankar
                                                            > > > and The Flute of God. Information from these were
                                                            > > > published in Orion Magazine in 1964 and 1966
                                                            > > > (respectively) , I believe. (The Tiger's Fang was 1967)
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Introduction to Eckankar doesn't appear to mention
                                                            > > > "Mahanta" in the Index section. However, The Flute
                                                            > > > of God mentions Mahanta once, and Mahanta con-
                                                            > > > sciousness twice. (I assume that the later appeared
                                                            > > > in the 1966 Orion series, but I'm not sure.)
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > The Wisdom Notes book by Paul Twitchell shows
                                                            > > > the terms "ECK Master" and "living ECK Master",
                                                            > > > used in 1968. "MAHANTA" appears in January 1969
                                                            > > > and "MAHANTA - the living ECK Master" in February
                                                            > > > 1970. (Eckankar claimed non-profit status in July of
                                                            > > > 1970, I believe.)
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > So I want to ask myself: "When exactly did the term
                                                            > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master" first appear?
                                                            > > > And when did it first become associated with a person?"
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Julian Johnson's book The Path of the Masters men-
                                                            > > > tions the term living Master, I believe. And Paul T. would
                                                            > > > have been familiar with that term.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > I don't find the term "mahanta" used by Eckankar prior
                                                            > > > to October 1965. Perhaps it first appeared in 1966 with
                                                            > > > Orion Magazine: The Flute of God installments?
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > If this time period is correct, it appears to me the
                                                            > > > association with a person might have evolved for
                                                            > > > legal reasons. I say this because religions were
                                                            > > > usually asked to give the name of their leader when
                                                            > > > applying for certain status. The State wanted to
                                                            > > > know who was the head of it.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Is this how something like a highest "state of
                                                            > > > consciousness" , or "Inner Master" ("Mahanta")
                                                            > > > evolved to become associated with one single
                                                            > > > person at a time? Because only one leader of
                                                            > > > the Eckankar organization exists at a time?
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > If that were the case, I am not saying it bodes
                                                            > > > well for history (IMO).
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Etznab
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                            > > > From: tomleafeater tianyue@earthlink. net>
                                                            > > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                                                            > > > Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:43 pm
                                                            > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: I May Be God or Something
                                                            > Greater.
                                                            > > Maybe.
                                                            > > > Excuse me if this post is a repeat
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Jonathan,
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > One of Twitchell's tactics was to claim he stood for certain
                                                            > > principles
                                                            > > > or truisms, but then do exactly the opposite. Of course he
                                                            > claimed
                                                            > > such
                                                            > > > things as "people should not worship the personality. " But
                                                            > then
                                                            > > he
                                                            > > > contradicted that by declaring himself, a person, the Master
                                                            > of
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > Universe.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Notice in the quote I provided in my previous post that he
                                                            > > referred to
                                                            > > > the Mahanta with the pronoun, "He"? When gender is assigned,
                                                            > that
                                                            > > > indicates the so-called Mahanta is a person, and as a person,
                                                            > he
                                                            > > is
                                                            > > > thus a personality. In the same breath, he says the Mahanta,
                                                            > the
                                                            > > Living
                                                            > > > Eck Master (emphasizing "living," as in a living person) is
                                                            > not
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > body, but soul. Yet soul has no gender. So he's referring to
                                                            > the
                                                            > > > Mahanta as HE, indicating gender and personality, and as
                                                            > LIVING,
                                                            > > > indicating a physical embodiment (again indicating
                                                            > personality)
                                                            > > and on
                                                            > > > the other hand claiming the Mahanta is not the body, but soul.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > He's trying to have this both ways, which creates cognitive
                                                            > > dissonance
                                                            > > > in the follower. Clearly, he wanted his followers to think of
                                                            > him,
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > man, as the Mahanta, and to give further evidence of this, he
                                                            > was
                                                            > > > introduced as "the Mahanta, the Living Eck Master" when he
                                                            > went on
                                                            > > > stage.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Eckists like to claim the Mahanta is not the person, but the
                                                            > truth
                                                            > > is,
                                                            > > > for all practical purposes, it is a person who is given that
                                                            > > title, and
                                                            > > > is introduced with that title, and identified in writings
                                                            > with
                                                            > > that
                                                            > > > title.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Eckankar is all about worship of personality, because
                                                            > Eckankar is
                                                            > > built
                                                            > > > around the "Living Master" concept. And that personality can
                                                            > > either
                                                            > > > give you initiations and status, or take them away and kick
                                                            > you
                                                            > > out of
                                                            > > > eckankar. That personality controls the entire organization.
                                                            > That
                                                            > > > personality dictates what the doctrines will be, and even can
                                                            > > remove
                                                            > > > the initiations of the person who anointed him as master!
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > It doesn't get more personal than that. Eckists try to deny
                                                            > this,
                                                            > > but
                                                            > > > the evidence is blatantly clear.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Anyway, I notice you sidestepped my question. But I will
                                                            > answer it
                                                            > > for
                                                            > > > you: Paul Twitchell was a lying plagiarist who ripped off
                                                            > other
                                                            > > > author's writings to create his own path so that he could be
                                                            > the
                                                            > > chief
                                                            > > > personality in his own personality cult. He used manipulative
                                                            > > tactics
                                                            > > > aimed at controlling and creating dependency in his
                                                            > followers. The
                                                            > > > facts bear this out.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Paul Twitchell was no master. And it is not factual to claim
                                                            > > otherwise.
                                                            > > > And unlike you, I have no qualms at all about stating this,
                                                            > > because it
                                                            > > > is a cold, hard truth. In my view, your comment that you
                                                            > don't
                                                            > > "concern
                                                            > > > yourself with the question" is a rather evasive answer. Just
                                                            > where
                                                            > > do
                                                            > > > you stand? Are eckankar's alleged masters genuine, or not?
                                                            > Pardon
                                                            > > me if
                                                            > > > I say you seem a bit conflicted.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > But that's okay. In no way do I want to push you to do what
                                                            > you're
                                                            > > not
                                                            > > > ready to do. I understand that it can be difficult to make
                                                            > the
                                                            > > final
                                                            > > > decision to truly walk away from eckankar, severe the
                                                            > > relationship, and
                                                            > > > realize it to be what it is: A fraud.
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Speaking for myself only,
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > Leaf
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, jonathanjohns96
                                                            > > > <no_reply@ ...> wrote:
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Leaf,
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > I listened to a cassette tape by Twitchell. He
                                                            > emphasized
                                                            > > that
                                                            > > > people should not worship the personality. He emphasized that
                                                            > he
                                                            > > didn't
                                                            > > > want to see Eckankar turned into a personality cult. So that
                                                            > is
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > impression that I got.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > If you have other observations on Twitchell then please
                                                            > post
                                                            > > them
                                                            > > > because I see them as a welcome addition to this message
                                                            > board. I
                                                            > > don't
                                                            > > > know whether I have ever seen comments about Twitchell from
                                                            > > someone who
                                                            > > > was in Eckankar when Twitchell was the LEM. I realize that
                                                            > you may
                                                            > > have
                                                            > > > already posted this.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > As far as Twitchell being a master. When I was a member
                                                            > of
                                                            > > > Eckankar I obviously thought that he was. Now, I really don't
                                                            > even
                                                            > > > concern myself with the question. I believe that each of us
                                                            > is our
                                                            > > own
                                                            > > > master, meaning we are responsible for our own spiritual
                                                            > > unfoldment.
                                                            > > > Nobody else is. When a person calls themselves a master AND
                                                            > starts
                                                            > > > acting like they can advise everyone else on their personal
                                                            > > unfoldment,
                                                            > > > that is when I have a problem with that person. Twitchell and
                                                            > all
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > other LEMs could have simply taught people stuff, but not act
                                                            > like
                                                            > > they
                                                            > > > are taking care of your spiritual life for you. People should
                                                            > look
                                                            > > at
                                                            > > > themselves as their own master and do it themselves. In the
                                                            > end, I
                                                            > > > don't think any of the LEMs are any more spiritually evolved
                                                            > than
                                                            > > their
                                                            > > > followers. It's all a moot point to even discuss it because I
                                                            > > should be
                                                            > > > concerned with my own spiritual unfoldment, not other
                                                            > people's.
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > Jonathan
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "tomleafeater"
                                                            > > > <tianyue@ > wrote:
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > Jonathan,
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > In regards to worship of masters, and the notion
                                                            > you
                                                            > > have
                                                            > > > that Paul Twitchell "tried to tone down all of that," and
                                                            > that you
                                                            > > > think of "Klemp as the main one who has become more
                                                            > egotistical, "
                                                            > > I
                                                            > > > just have to say, as person who was in eckankar when PT was
                                                            > alive,
                                                            > > your
                                                            > > > assumption is absolutely incorrect. Where did you get that
                                                            > > impression
                                                            > > > about Twitchell?
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > Twitchell was worshiped as much if not even more as
                                                            > > Klemp,
                                                            > > > and the worship was deliberately engendered by Twitchell.
                                                            > While in
                                                            > > > today's eckankar, Klemp is withdrawing and letting others run
                                                            > the
                                                            > > org,
                                                            > > > PT was highly visible. There were Paulji T-Shirts, Paulji
                                                            > full
                                                            > > size
                                                            > > > wall posters, Paulji songs, Paulji photos, drawings, ad
                                                            > nauseum.
                                                            > > People
                                                            > > > practically fainted when he came into the room. They would
                                                            > stand
                                                            > > in
                                                            > > > line for long periods to get close to receive the "darshan"
                                                            > and to
                                                            > > > shake his hand to feel then spiritual "shock" of electricity,
                                                            > and
                                                            > > would
                                                            > > > gather in hallways afterwords to ask each other, "did you
                                                            > feel the
                                                            > > > shock?" Twitchell was literally thought to be all powerful and
                                                            > > > omniscient, capable of anything.
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > Question: Do you believe Paul Twitchell was a
                                                            > Master, or
                                                            > > was
                                                            > > > enlightened, or serving a spiritual purpose, or directed by
                                                            > inner
                                                            > > > masters? I'm very curious to know your honest answer to this.
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > But let's allow PT to speak for himself to clear up
                                                            > all
                                                            > > > doubt. Here's what PT had to say about himself:
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > "The Mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the
                                                            > > > principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is
                                                            > > responsible
                                                            > > > for all those who are the faithful within the ECK. At the
                                                            > same
                                                            > > time, He
                                                            > > > must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
                                                            > > faiths are
                                                            > > > also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and
                                                            > looks at
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > major disasters, earthquakes, wars and other problems of
                                                            > mankind
                                                            > > as
                                                            > > > part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the
                                                            > human
                                                            > > race.
                                                            > > > Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to
                                                            > the
                                                            > > human
                                                            > > > race on earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual
                                                            > affairs of
                                                            > > life
                                                            > > > on other planets and universes, that of the beings and
                                                            > entities
                                                            > > within
                                                            > > > the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the
                                                            > higher
                                                            > > > planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is
                                                            > > light-hearted
                                                            > > > at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions,
                                                            > He is
                                                            > > ever
                                                            > > > in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those
                                                            > nearest
                                                            > > His
                                                            > > > heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and
                                                            > > universes.
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the
                                                            > > world
                                                            > > > savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all
                                                            > psychic
                                                            > > > planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the
                                                            > Worlds
                                                            > > of
                                                            > > > God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk
                                                            > with,
                                                            > > but the
                                                            > > > spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is
                                                            > the
                                                            > > > spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He
                                                            > is the
                                                            > > ECK
                                                            > > > Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the
                                                            > > spiritual
                                                            > > > essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and
                                                            > > Mercy, He
                                                            > > > is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and
                                                            > which
                                                            > > is
                                                            > > > the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta
                                                            > in
                                                            > > every
                                                            > > > man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other
                                                            > forms of
                                                            > > > life. His physical body is the only representation of the
                                                            > channel
                                                            > > > through which the ECK flows. "
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > Letters to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                            > jonathanjohns96
                                                            > > > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > Harrison,
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > "You are your own master" simply means that
                                                            > YOU are
                                                            > > in
                                                            > > > charge of yourself, YOU are responsible for yourself. In
                                                            > other
                                                            > > words,
                                                            > > > nobody else is, and it is in error to give YOUR own
                                                            > responsibility
                                                            > > to
                                                            > > > someone else such as Klemp, thinking that they will help you
                                                            > > because
                                                            > > > YOU are the one to do it. That's all it means.
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > You went off on the word "master" but in my
                                                            > reply I
                                                            > > > already told you,
                                                            > > > > > > when you realize that you are your own master
                                                            > > you're not
                                                            > > > supposed to be egotistical or use it to think you are better
                                                            > than
                                                            > > > others. Are you actually reading what I say? But I agree with
                                                            > you
                                                            > > that
                                                            > > > a lot of people have given the word "master" a bad name so I
                                                            > > understand
                                                            > > > why you have major problems with it.
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > I know you don't care, but for others reading
                                                            > my
                                                            > > > response, none of the spiritual beings I had contact with had
                                                            > any
                                                            > > ego.
                                                            > > > They didn't require me to kowtow to them at all. None in the
                                                            > > least.
                                                            > > > There was a related story about Paul Twitchell where he was
                                                            > > reported to
                                                            > > > have said to one of the Eck masters "Master, I have a
                                                            > question."
                                                            > > The
                                                            > > > Eck master replied "I am not your master, but go ahead and
                                                            > ask
                                                            > > your
                                                            > > > question anyway." That's what I am talking about.
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > Actually, it is the East where the most
                                                            > extreme
                                                            > > worship
                                                            > > > of masters occurs. If you look at the devotees in India it is
                                                            > easy
                                                            > > to
                                                            > > > see how much they worship their masters. Twitchell actually
                                                            > tried
                                                            > > to
                                                            > > > tone down all of that. I see Klemp as the main one who has
                                                            > become
                                                            > > more
                                                            > > > egotistical.
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > But no matter what, as soon as someone says "I
                                                            > am
                                                            > > God
                                                            > > > realized" it seems that a lot of people automatically start
                                                            > > worshiping
                                                            > > > the person. So my view is this, if someone says "I am God
                                                            > > realized" and
                                                            > > > then starts gathering followers, they have already "failed
                                                            > the
                                                            > > test"
                                                            > > > because they have let their ego get the best of them.
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > The people who realize that they are their own
                                                            > > master
                                                            > > > (figuratively speaking) and pursue their enlightenment on
                                                            > their
                                                            > > own
                                                            > > > without gathering followers are the ones in my opinion who
                                                            > have
                                                            > > "passed
                                                            > > > the test" if you want to use that terminology and way of
                                                            > looking
                                                            > > at
                                                            > > > things.
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > Jonathan
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                            > > harrisonferrel
                                                            > > > <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > First, Jonathan, no reflection on you as
                                                            > a
                                                            > > person,
                                                            > > > because I don't know you. I imagine you are a nice guy, but
                                                            > your
                                                            > > reply
                                                            > > > sounds to me like more horseshit. It is based on no knowledge
                                                            > or
                                                            > > > ability to assess my situation. It's just perpetuating the
                                                            > same
                                                            > > > nonsense that is already well known to eckankar ÃÆ'¯Â¿Â½
                                                            > assumptions
                                                            > > and
                                                            > > > rationalization.
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > We can rationalize "experiences" until we
                                                            > are
                                                            > > blue
                                                            > > > in the face. But this is only guessing. And these are guesses
                                                            > > based on
                                                            > > > no good reason at all. It's time we come to the conclusion
                                                            > that
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > mind gives us images for a personal reason. More often than
                                                            > not,
                                                            > > there
                                                            > > > is no reason to read into these images anything more than the
                                                            > > workings
                                                            > > > of the imagination. As Freud once said, and I paraphrase,
                                                            > > "Sometimes a
                                                            > > > cigar in your dream is just a cigar."
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > I am not a master of anything or anything
                                                            > > close to
                                                            > > > a master. In fact, I would challenge ANYBODY to prove that he
                                                            > or
                                                            > > she is
                                                            > > > a master. This word, master, is used without care or respect.
                                                            > It
                                                            > > has
                                                            > > > little meaning in the West.
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > My mind is capable of creating a plethora
                                                            > of
                                                            > > images
                                                            > > > and scenarios that are of no significance to the real world.
                                                            > By
                                                            > > > analogy, I can take ten buckets of paint and throw them at a
                                                            > > canvas. If
                                                            > > > you want to say that the end result is meaningful art that
                                                            > holds a
                                                            > > > message, then you're dabbling in the absurd without any
                                                            > evidence
                                                            > > to
                                                            > > > back up your claims.
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > I did read Johnson's book. That guy, at
                                                            > the
                                                            > > time I
                                                            > > > read it, was on his own ego trip, still holding on to the
                                                            > hope of
                                                            > > > something valuable from his eckankar experience. His book
                                                            > isn't
                                                            > > very
                                                            > > > good or helpful. David Lane's cuts to the truth. And I got
                                                            > far
                                                            > > more out
                                                            > > > of Sharon's posts and those of Tom and others associated with
                                                            > this
                                                            > > > forum, because they were able to leave behind the eckankar
                                                            > > overtones.
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > From your analysis of my experiences and
                                                            > > visions,
                                                            > > > you simply are concocting a meaning. You don't know me and
                                                            > you
                                                            > > don't
                                                            > > > know the inner workings of my mind. So what you're doing is
                                                            > like a
                                                            > > > psychologist analyzing a patient and offering a diagnosis
                                                            > based on
                                                            > > a
                                                            > > > single letter the patient once wrote. It's just plain wrong
                                                            > to do.
                                                            > > It's
                                                            > > > not only flippant, but it's negligent as well.
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > Regarding morimitsu, I would hazard to
                                                            > guess
                                                            > > that
                                                            > > > he was "handpicked" because he goes along with the
                                                            > perpetuation of
                                                            > > > klemp's program of lies, deceit and manipulation. He's a good
                                                            > > > candidate to work the lunacy pedals.
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > The idea of coming up with explanations
                                                            > for
                                                            > > > experiences, especially those that are not your own, is sheer
                                                            > > folly.
                                                            > > > But equally ridiculous is the interpretation of one's own
                                                            > imagery
                                                            > > or
                                                            > > > "experiences" without critical thinking and, as I said in my
                                                            > > original
                                                            > > > post, without exhausting all other possible explanations.
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > Eckankar does a good job at relieving
                                                            > people
                                                            > > of
                                                            > > > their critical minds and the earnest, unencumbered pursuit of
                                                            > > truth.
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com,
                                                            > > > jonathanjohns96 <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > Harrison,
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > I believe you inner experiences were
                                                            > > real. And
                                                            > > > I believe that they were just for you. They were almost
                                                            > certainly
                                                            > > > telling you that "You are a master too." That is something
                                                            > that
                                                            > > Ford
                                                            > > > Johnson emphasized many times in his book. I mention Ford
                                                            > only
                                                            > > because
                                                            > > > a lot of people are familiar with him, but many people have
                                                            > not
                                                            > > had the
                                                            > > > time to read his book.
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > So getting back to your inner
                                                            > > experiences.
                                                            > > > They were telling you "You are a master too." It's true that
                                                            > this
                                                            > > type
                                                            > > > of inner experience would not sit well with Klemp (to put it
                                                            > > mildly).
                                                            > > > So what was happening is that YOUR inner experiences (just
                                                            > for you
                                                            > > > only) were telling you that were you were getting close to
                                                            > the
                                                            > > time
                                                            > > > when you were ready to leave Eckankar. And I will caution you
                                                            > > about one
                                                            > > > thing. Just because the experiences were telling you that
                                                            > "You are
                                                            > > your
                                                            > > > own master" didn't mean that you should be an egomaniac and
                                                            > (1)
                                                            > > think
                                                            > > > that you are superior to others or (2) start your own
                                                            > religion. It
                                                            > > was
                                                            > > > just telling you (1) you are now the master of your own
                                                            > destiny
                                                            > > and (2)
                                                            > > > you don't need other masters and/or Eckankar anymore.
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > From this point on I am no longer
                                                            > talking
                                                            > > > about you specifically, but rather engaging in a general
                                                            > > discussion.
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > Regarding Phil Morimitsu. His book
                                                            > was
                                                            > > > hand-picked by Klemp because his experiences supported
                                                            > Twitchell's
                                                            > > > experiences, plus the general writings of Eckankar all the
                                                            > way.
                                                            > > The
                                                            > > > problem, as you evidently realize, is that many Eckists inner
                                                            > > > experiences are nothing like they are "supposed" to be. And
                                                            > worse
                                                            > > than
                                                            > > > that, when you ask the local HI or ESA about it, they
                                                            > generally
                                                            > > have no
                                                            > > > clue either. And asking Klemp on the Physical Plane what is
                                                            > going
                                                            > > on is
                                                            > > > the worst idea of all. Graham Forsyth learned all about that
                                                            > to
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > benefit of all of us who have also had inner experiences that
                                                            > > didn't
                                                            > > > match what Eckankar said they should be.
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > I still remember something that I
                                                            > read on
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > Internet long before I left Eckankar. A man was telling a
                                                            > story
                                                            > > about
                                                            > > > how he joined Eckankar, did a soul travel exercise, and
                                                            > promptly
                                                            > > left
                                                            > > > his body. He was definitely somewhere, but as the
                                                            > emphatically put
                                                            > > it,
                                                            > > > he stated that Klemp was nowhere to be found!!! You know how
                                                            > the
                                                            > > > exercises always state that the master will be waiting for
                                                            > you
                                                            > > there.
                                                            > > > Well this guy was very upset that nobody was there!
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > So lots of people have inner
                                                            > experiences
                                                            > > > contrary to what Eckankar tells them is going to happen. And
                                                            > when
                                                            > > they
                                                            > > > do, there is no legitimate help from anyone in Eckankar. I
                                                            > think
                                                            > > it is
                                                            > > > actually a major reason why a lot of people leave Eckankar,
                                                            > but it
                                                            > > is
                                                            > > > rarely discussed. I have a theory that it is too personal, or
                                                            > > people
                                                            > > > are embarrassed to talk about it. I don't know. I'm not
                                                            > > specifically
                                                            > > > talking about you now. I'm just thinking out loud about
                                                            > possible
                                                            > > > reasons.
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > I once told a fellow member that all
                                                            > the
                                                            > > books
                                                            > > > in Eckankar seemed namby pamby. This was after my inner
                                                            > > experiences
                                                            > > > made me feel that way. She recommended the book "The Rosetta
                                                            > Stone
                                                            > > Of
                                                            > > > God." I never read it, but evidently it wasn't your standard
                                                            > Eck
                                                            > > book.
                                                            > > > I later heard that the author left Eckankar. It seems to be
                                                            > > another
                                                            > > > example of somebody having different experiences, and before
                                                            > you
                                                            > > know
                                                            > > > it, they are leaving Eckankar.
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > Jonathan
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups.
                                                            > com,
                                                            > > > harrisonferrel <no_reply@ > wrote:
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > When I was in Eckankar, I was
                                                            > > completely
                                                            > > > amazing, experience-wise. The stuff I used to dream and the
                                                            > > contents of
                                                            > > > my contemplations made me something superior to all human
                                                            > beings,
                                                            > > > including the masters and the living eck master. I was really
                                                            > > > something. I had "experiences" that showed in no uncertain
                                                            > terms
                                                            > > that
                                                            > > > the eck masters came to me for advice and consultation. I was
                                                            > on a
                                                            > > > throne and they were subservient to me. I was at all the
                                                            > major
                                                            > > events
                                                            > > > in the caves and caverns and secret spaces.
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > So what do you do with this
                                                            > kind of
                                                            > > thing?
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > Luckily, I am not a deluded
                                                            > person,
                                                            > > a
                                                            > > > narcissist, a psychopath or a psychotic or other such order
                                                            > of
                                                            > > deranged
                                                            > > > characterizations. So these kinds of experiences set off a
                                                            > little
                                                            > > bell
                                                            > > > that made me question everything about eckankar and the
                                                            > deluded
                                                            > > nutjob
                                                            > > > pretenders from klemp to twitchell to morimitsu whose
                                                            > fantastic
                                                            > > > rantings are unbelievable because, frankly, they are
                                                            > > un-believe-able.
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > When you have experiences that
                                                            > show
                                                            > > you
                                                            > > > to be downtrodden and unworthy, eckists, including klemp, are
                                                            > > quick to
                                                            > > > tell you it's because you need the light or some other such
                                                            > crap.
                                                            > > When
                                                            > > > you have the kind of experiences I had, they want nothing to
                                                            > do
                                                            > > with
                                                            > > > you. It makes you competition, or worse. What's worse? It
                                                            > scares
                                                            > > them
                                                            > > > because they know they are making their shit up, so it's
                                                            > scary and
                                                            > > > threatens to upset the whole cult.
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > I've come to see past lives and
                                                            > all
                                                            > > other
                                                            > > > dreams and workings of the brain and imagination as unworthy
                                                            > of
                                                            > > much of
                                                            > > > my thought or attention. Clearly, a lot, if not all, of it is
                                                            > just
                                                            > > > nonsense and the workings of the mind. It has nothing to do
                                                            > with
                                                            > > any
                                                            > > > sense of reality here or elsewhere. Surely, a sincere mind
                                                            > would
                                                            > > want
                                                            > > > to exhaust all other possible explanation before landing upon
                                                            > a
                                                            > > > satisfying answer.
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > Why people believe klemp,
                                                            > twitchell
                                                            > > or
                                                            > > > morimitsu is beyond the normal, discriminating, street smart
                                                            > mind.
                                                            > > It
                                                            > > > has only to do with being fooled and nothing else. I was
                                                            > amazed,
                                                            > > years
                                                            > > > ago when I read morimitsu's book as a monk. Years later I
                                                            > found a
                                                            > > > couple of similar books that predated his of very similar
                                                            > subject
                                                            > > > matter and experiences. Another twitchell in the making, I
                                                            > thought.
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > Following my 12 year stint with
                                                            > > eckankar,
                                                            > > > I left and looked into just about every other possible
                                                            > explanation
                                                            > > for
                                                            > > > what eckankar teaches as being this or that. I found that
                                                            > > eckankar, as
                                                            > > > a cult, is all about massaging the truth, inventing
                                                            > definitions
                                                            > > for old
                                                            > > > words, lying to people and, of course, stealing (as evidenced
                                                            > in
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > writings of David Lane and many others, including the good
                                                            > people
                                                            > > in
                                                            > > > this particular posting group who have meticulously shown
                                                            > > innumerable
                                                            > > > plagiarisms that make up the foundation of eck teachings).
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > Serious delving into the human
                                                            > mind,
                                                            > > > Buddhism and psychology shows that what goes on in dreams and
                                                            > the
                                                            > > > imagination is not to be taken literally. Almost all of it is
                                                            > a
                                                            > > > metaphor. But to the unaware, eckankar provides an
                                                            > encouraging,
                                                            > > (and in
                                                            > > > too many cases) believable, explanation for past life
                                                            > "memories,"
                                                            > > out
                                                            > > > of body experiences, "inner" experiences and the like.
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > I can only imagine that if
                                                            > harold
                                                            > > klemp
                                                            > > > had "inner experiences" anywhere close to the ones I've had
                                                            > he
                                                            > > would
                                                            > > > take them as real and allow them to merely boost his already
                                                            > > distorted
                                                            > > > sense of self.
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > > > Eckankar is a disservice, to
                                                            > say the
                                                            > > > least, for anybody, especially those like us who entered the
                                                            > cult
                                                            > > with
                                                            > > > an earnest desire to learn, improve, expand, grow and become
                                                            > > better
                                                            > > > people by finding answers and techniques. I'll never agree
                                                            > with
                                                            > > the
                                                            > > > diagnosis that it is a harmless cult that has at least a some
                                                            > good
                                                            > > to
                                                            > > > give to its members. It's a jumbled waste of time with a liar
                                                            > and
                                                            > > cheat
                                                            > > > at the helm.
                                                            > > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > > >
                                                            > > > > >
                                                            > > > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                          • jonathanjohns96
                                                            Note: This is an old thread that I am resurrecting. Yesterday, I accidentally ran into a lady from India whom I know a bit. She is a very intelligent lady from
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Aug 3, 2010
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Note: This is an old thread that I am resurrecting.

                                                              Yesterday, I accidentally ran into a lady from India whom I know a bit. She is a very intelligent lady from India who is from the state of Bihar. She is probably a Brahmin, but I am not certain of that.

                                                              I had to ask her one question "How many Hindus in India actually follow a Guru?" Her reply was "About 30%." She didn't hesitate in her answer. And she didn't act like it was a difficult question to answer.

                                                              That is the only answer I have so far, so that is the number I am personally going with for now.

                                                              I always like to get information from local citizens because I figure that they have a better idea than we Americans do.
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