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Re: EK initiations, second guessing and "love" baby!

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  • prometheus_973
    I stand corrected on the 1st initiation. 1st - inner only (dream state & by any EK Master) 2nd - upon request - outer & inner 3rd thru 9th - outer & inner 10th
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 3, 2010
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      I stand corrected on the 1st initiation.
      1st - inner only (dream state & by any EK Master)
      2nd - upon request - outer & inner
      3rd thru 9th - outer & inner
      10th & 11th - inner only
      12th - outer & inner
      13th & 14th - inner only

      Yes it's true that regardless of whether one
      quits, without notice or resigns from the church,
      the EK teachings state that you (Soul) are forever
      connected to the Mahanta. This is just another
      control/scare tactic and a form of mind control
      i.e. Black Magic that Twitchell came up with and
      Klemp supports today.


      Prometheus

      avonblue1212 gowiththeflow1212@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Zoey and all,
      > Actually, the first initiation is inner only. There is no formal outer procedure. The second initiation is requested after two years of study. The clincher here is eckankar states that by accepting the second you are 'eternally' linked to the light and sound of god.. How enticing...
      > Avonblue


      prometheus_973@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello Zoey,
      > > I can understand the confusion. Klemp
      > > likes to keep his flock off-balance and
      > > second guessing. Initiations are more
      > > mental (imaginary) than anything else
      > > except for one's physical membership
      > > card with the number of one's plane of
      > > con. Oh, there are also those physical
      > > plane "pink slips" too and your computerized
      > > file with initiation dates, etc. at the ESC.
      > > [Anyone wanting a printout of these
      > > dates can call Membership Services
      > > and a list will be mailed out to you.]
      > >
      > >
      > > Basically,
      >> 1st is inner only (dream state)
      > > 2-9 are inner and outer,
      > > 10-11 are inner only,
      > > 12 is inner and outer, and
      > > 13-14 are inner only (and are
      > > unverifiable except by the EK leader/god).
      > > Actually, all initiations (and everything EK,
      > > in general) are specifically (and plane wise)
      > > unverifiable except by the Klempster.
      > > Everyone dreams and/or imagines what
      > > they want, need, or expect.
      > >
      > > *[2-9]
      > > In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
      > > is the following:
      > >
      > > "Third, the final part of the Ninth
      > > Initiation occurs in the physical
      > > world."
      > >
      > > *[12th]
      > > In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
      > > on page 226:
      > >
      > > "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
      > > the first of this century, at a craggy,
      > > unexplored site called the Oracle of
      > > Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
      > > northern Tibet. It is here that the
      > > Rod of ECK Power is passed from
      > > the departing LEM to his successor
      > > on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
      > > at midnight; sometimes called the
      > > Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."
      > >
      > > It should be noted that this is a
      > > physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
      > > although, it might be claimed that
      > > one travels there in the Astral Body
      > > which resembles one's physical body.
      > > This is why there are paintings and
      > > drawings of these people. Any body
      > > higher than the Astral would not
      > > otherwise have the same identifiable
      > > (physical) characteristics.
      > >
      > > It should be noted that in Klemp's
      > > 1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
      > > Far Country" on pages 186-187
      > > Klemp states:
      > >
      > > "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
      > > 1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
      > > Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
      > > planes."
      > >
      > > Of course, Darwin had to confirm
      > > HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
      > > the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
      > > since Klemp achieved these between
      > > July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!
      > >
      > >
      > > Of course Klemp had to backtrack
      > > for the Masters 4 Discourse because
      > > how can one anoint card carrying
      > > 9ths without an "outer" confirmation
      > > "final" stage?
      > >
      > > Else wise, everyone would be
      > > running around claiming to be
      > > a 9th. It's bad enough that 7ths
      > > are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
      > > or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
      > > on the inner or that some Eckists
      > > skip initiations and, thus, there
      > > are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
      > > (on the inner).
      > >
      > > I hope that this info and perspective
      > > has helped to clarify the nonsense
      > > behind ECK Initiations.
      > >
      > >
      > > BTW- It seems that Eckists don't
      > > really need the Initiations, EK Books
      > > and Membership Cards, or Zoas,
      > > or Guidelines, Discourses, or Laws
      > > or Donations of Coin and Service...
      > > all they need is love!
      > >
      > > There is a Klemp quote in the
      > > Jan. 2010 "Letter of Light" that
      > > states:
      > >
      > > "Love is love. And this is what
      > > the ECK teachings are all about.
      > > Purely love, and just love. Simply
      > > love."
      > >
      > > Yep! All you need is love! Very
      > > simple and yet so profound!
      > > Say, wasn't that Jesus' message
      > > 2000 years ago?!
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      > > zoey wrote on Eckankar Survivors Anonymous:
      > >
      > > initiations
      > >
      > > Hey prometheus. Some time back there
      > > was a discussion here concerning eckankar
      > > initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember,
      > > can you tell me which initiations are considered
      > > entirely inner, and which are required to also
      > > have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?
      > >
      > > My friend and I are curious about this.
      > >
      > > Thanks, zoey
      > >
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Klemp did quite a rewrite of Twitchell s Eckankar Dictionary. Klemp added the First Initiation definition in his 1998 EK Lexicon and mentions that the
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 3, 2010
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        Klemp did quite a rewrite of Twitchell's
        Eckankar Dictionary. Klemp added the
        "First Initiation" definition in his 1998
        EK Lexicon and mentions that the "Mahanta"
        gave it for the first initiation, usually,
        in the dream state.

        However, Twitchell only mentions the
        Dream Master "LEM" in his Eckankar
        Dictionary in regards to the Acolyte
        (1st Initiate).

        Klemp rewrote the definition of PT's
        "Inner Initiation" from the Eckankar
        Dictionary as well. Klemp adds that:
        "All initiations above the 8th are inner
        initiations." [EK Lexicon 1998]

        However, Klemp wrote "The Masters 4
        Discourse" (Lesson 2) in 1995 where he
        states that the third and final stage of
        the 9th was given on the "outer."

        In just Three years Klemp forgot
        what he had written in 1995. But,
        let's face it... it's harder to remember
        a lie than the truth. Since according
        to Klemp there are,supposedly, only
        OUTER EK Initiations up to and including
        the 8th and those higher are on the
        INNER then why did Klemp forget that
        the Third and Final Stage of the 9th
        was on the OUTER? Of course, HK
        overlooked the "Inner" 1st initiation.

        When mentioning the "Inner Initiations"
        Paul never mentions the Mahanta.
        Instead, Paul mentions the Dream
        Master and the LEM.

        BTW- Both books say that the 5th
        initiation is the "first of the true
        initiations," thus, making 1-4 as
        minor or false initiations. However,
        Paul had much more to say about
        the 5th than Klemp. Klemp just
        repeated that the 5th was the
        first true initiation. He deleted
        the rest of what Paul said (below).

        Twitchell defines it as: "Fifth
        Initiation. The first of the true
        initiations, the Mahdis, the Brothers
        of the Leaf; Co-workers with the
        Mahanta, the LEM; the initiation
        of the Fifth Plane."

        So, does this mean that only 5ths
        are "Co-workers with the Mahanta"
        since this Co-worker thing isn't
        mentioned for the other initiations?
        Strange. No wonder EKists have to
        second guess so much!

        Prometheus


        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > I stand corrected on the 1st initiation.
        > 1st - inner only (dream state & by any EK Master)
        > 2nd - upon request - outer & inner
        > 3rd thru 9th - outer & inner
        > 10th & 11th - inner only
        > 12th - outer & inner
        > 13th & 14th - inner only
        >
        > Yes it's true that regardless of whether one
        > quits, without notice or resigns from the church,
        > the EK teachings state that you (Soul) are forever
        > connected to the Mahanta. This is just another
        > control/scare tactic and a form of mind control
        > i.e. Black Magic that Twitchell came up with and
        > Klemp supports today.
        >
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > avonblue1212 gowiththeflow1212@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Zoey and all,
        > > Actually, the first initiation is inner only. There is no formal outer procedure. The second initiation is requested after two years of study. The clincher here is eckankar states that by accepting the second you are 'eternally' linked to the light and sound of god.. How enticing...
        > > Avonblue
        >
        >
        > prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hello Zoey,
        > > > I can understand the confusion. Klemp
        > > > likes to keep his flock off-balance and
        > > > second guessing. Initiations are more
        > > > mental (imaginary) than anything else
        > > > except for one's physical membership
        > > > card with the number of one's plane of
        > > > con. Oh, there are also those physical
        > > > plane "pink slips" too and your computerized
        > > > file with initiation dates, etc. at the ESC.
        > > > [Anyone wanting a printout of these
        > > > dates can call Membership Services
        > > > and a list will be mailed out to you.]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Basically,
        > >> 1st is inner only (dream state)
        > > > 2-9 are inner and outer,
        > > > 10-11 are inner only,
        > > > 12 is inner and outer, and
        > > > 13-14 are inner only (and are
        > > > unverifiable except by the EK leader/god).
        > > > Actually, all initiations (and everything EK,
        > > > in general) are specifically (and plane wise)
        > > > unverifiable except by the Klempster.
        > > > Everyone dreams and/or imagines what
        > > > they want, need, or expect.
        > > >
        > > > *[2-9]
        > > > In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
        > > > is the following:
        > > >
        > > > "Third, the final part of the Ninth
        > > > Initiation occurs in the physical
        > > > world."
        > > >
        > > > *[12th]
        > > > In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
        > > > on page 226:
        > > >
        > > > "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
        > > > the first of this century, at a craggy,
        > > > unexplored site called the Oracle of
        > > > Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
        > > > northern Tibet. It is here that the
        > > > Rod of ECK Power is passed from
        > > > the departing LEM to his successor
        > > > on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
        > > > at midnight; sometimes called the
        > > > Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."
        > > >
        > > > It should be noted that this is a
        > > > physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
        > > > although, it might be claimed that
        > > > one travels there in the Astral Body
        > > > which resembles one's physical body.
        > > > This is why there are paintings and
        > > > drawings of these people. Any body
        > > > higher than the Astral would not
        > > > otherwise have the same identifiable
        > > > (physical) characteristics.
        > > >
        > > > It should be noted that in Klemp's
        > > > 1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
        > > > Far Country" on pages 186-187
        > > > Klemp states:
        > > >
        > > > "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
        > > > 1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
        > > > Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
        > > > planes."
        > > >
        > > > Of course, Darwin had to confirm
        > > > HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
        > > > the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
        > > > since Klemp achieved these between
        > > > July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Of course Klemp had to backtrack
        > > > for the Masters 4 Discourse because
        > > > how can one anoint card carrying
        > > > 9ths without an "outer" confirmation
        > > > "final" stage?
        > > >
        > > > Else wise, everyone would be
        > > > running around claiming to be
        > > > a 9th. It's bad enough that 7ths
        > > > are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
        > > > or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
        > > > on the inner or that some Eckists
        > > > skip initiations and, thus, there
        > > > are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
        > > > (on the inner).
        > > >
        > > > I hope that this info and perspective
        > > > has helped to clarify the nonsense
        > > > behind ECK Initiations.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > BTW- It seems that Eckists don't
        > > > really need the Initiations, EK Books
        > > > and Membership Cards, or Zoas,
        > > > or Guidelines, Discourses, or Laws
        > > > or Donations of Coin and Service...
        > > > all they need is love!
        > > >
        > > > There is a Klemp quote in the
        > > > Jan. 2010 "Letter of Light" that
        > > > states:
        > > >
        > > > "Love is love. And this is what
        > > > the ECK teachings are all about.
        > > > Purely love, and just love. Simply
        > > > love."
        > > >
        > > > Yep! All you need is love! Very
        > > > simple and yet so profound!
        > > > Say, wasn't that Jesus' message
        > > > 2000 years ago?!
        > > >
        > > > Prometheus
        > > >
        > > > zoey wrote on Eckankar Survivors Anonymous:
        > > >
        > > > initiations
        > > >
        > > > Hey prometheus. Some time back there
        > > > was a discussion here concerning eckankar
        > > > initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember,
        > > > can you tell me which initiations are considered
        > > > entirely inner, and which are required to also
        > > > have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?
        > > >
        > > > My friend and I are curious about this.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks, zoey
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • harrisonferrel
        This message is a winner. It s great. The initiations always perplexed me when I was in eckankar. Then one day I realized they are just one more cog in the big
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 11, 2010
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          This message is a winner. It's great.

          The initiations always perplexed me when I was in eckankar. Then one day I realized they are just one more cog in the big wheel of deception and nonsense that is the hallmark of eckankar. No wonder you can't figure it out; it's arbitrary crappola.



          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Zoey,
          > I can understand the confusion. Klemp
          > likes to keep his flock off-balance and
          > second guessing. Initiations are more
          > mental (imaginary) than anything else
          > except for one's physical membership
          > card with the number of one's plane of
          > con. Oh, there are also those physical
          > plane "pink slips" too and your computerized
          > file with initiation dates, etc. at the ESC.
          > [Anyone wanting a printout of these
          > dates can call Membership Services
          > and a list will be mailed out to you.]
          >
          >
          > Basically,
          > 1-9 are inner and outer,
          > 10-11 are inner only,
          > 12 is inner and outer, and
          > 13-14 are inner only (and are
          > unverifiable except by the EK leader/god).
          > Actually, all initiations (and everything EK,
          > in general) are specifically (and plane wise)
          > unverifiable except by the Klempster.
          > Everyone dreams and/or imagines what
          > they want, need, or expect.
          >
          > *[1-9]
          > In The Masters 4 Discourse, Lesson 2
          > is the following:
          >
          > "Third, the final part of the Ninth
          > Initiation occurs in the physical
          > world."
          >
          > *[12th]
          > In Klemp's 1998 ECK Lexicon is this
          > on page 226:
          >
          > "Voice of Akivasha. The oracle, until
          > the first of this century, at a craggy,
          > unexplored site called the Oracle of
          > Tirmer in the Valley of Shangta in
          > northern Tibet. It is here that the
          > Rod of ECK Power is passed from
          > the departing LEM to his successor
          > on October 22 [Twitchell's Birthday],
          > at midnight; sometimes called the
          > Voice, or Oracle, of Tirmer."
          >
          > It should be noted that this is a
          > physical, earthly, and "outer" location,
          > although, it might be claimed that
          > one travels there in the Astral Body
          > which resembles one's physical body.
          > This is why there are paintings and
          > drawings of these people. Any body
          > higher than the Astral would not
          > otherwise have the same identifiable
          > (physical) characteristics.
          >
          > It should be noted that in Klemp's
          > 1987 book, "Soul Travelers of the
          > Far Country" on pages 186-187
          > Klemp states:
          >
          > "The Ninth Initiation came on July 22,
          > 1981. Initiations in ECK beyond the
          > Eighth are given ONLY on the inner
          > planes."
          >
          > Of course, Darwin had to confirm
          > HK's 9th on the outer. It seems that
          > the 10th and 11th are minor initiations
          > since Klemp achieved these between
          > July 22, 1981 and October 22, 1981!
          >
          >
          > Of course Klemp had to backtrack
          > for the Masters 4 Discourse because
          > how can one anoint card carrying
          > 9ths without an "outer" confirmation
          > "final" stage?
          >
          > Else wise, everyone would be
          > running around claiming to be
          > a 9th. It's bad enough that 7ths
          > are claiming to be 8ths (on the inner),
          > or that 8ths are claiming to be 9ths
          > on the inner or that some Eckists
          > skip initiations and, thus, there
          > are 5ths claiming to be 8ths
          > (on the inner).
          >
          > I hope that this info and perspective
          > has helped to clarify the nonsense
          > behind ECK Initiations.
          >
          >
          > BTW- It seems that Eckists don't
          > really need the Initiations, EK Books
          > and Membership Cards, or Zoas,
          > or Guidelines, Discourses, or Laws
          > or Donations of Coin and Service...
          > all they need is love!
          >
          > There is a Klemp quote in the
          > Jan. 2010 "Letter of Light" that
          > states:
          >
          > "Love is love. And this is what
          > the ECK teachings are all about.
          > Purely love, and just love. Simply
          > love."
          >
          > Yep! All you need is love! Very
          > simple and yet so profound!
          > Say, wasn't that Jesus' message
          > 2000 years ago?!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > zoey wrote on Eckankar Survivors Anonymous:
          >
          > initiations
          >
          > Hey prometheus. Some time back there
          > was a discussion here concerning eckankar
          > initiations, inner and outer. If you can remember,
          > can you tell me which initiations are considered
          > entirely inner, and which are required to also
          > have an outer initiation with an eck clergy?
          >
          > My friend and I are curious about this.
          >
          > Thanks, zoey
          >
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