Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Has there ever been a Native American "drumming" session at a major ECK seminar?

Expand Messages
  • jonathanjohns96
    This question in the title of this thread was actually put forward by Prometheus in another thread, but I thought that I would start a new thread:
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 29, 2009
      This question in the title of this thread was actually put forward by Prometheus in another thread, but I thought that I would start a new thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/7505

      Prometheus said:

      "BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
      American "drumming" session at
      a major ECK seminar? A group of
      us (once) got an empty room and
      were supposed to have had one
      because I was going to bring over
      one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
      to remember that it got cancelled
      because a higher-up at the ESC
      got wind of it and thought it was
      inappropriate."

      Me: No, I never saw Native American "drumming" session at a major seminar.

      Regarding your statement about why your drumming session was canceled. I tend to agree with your explanation that a higher-up heard about it, and probably because somebody complained to them. You didn't ask, but since I find this to be an interesting subject I spent a lot of time thinking about why "Eckankar" would consider a drumming session to be inappropriate. I thought up two possible reasons.

      1. I feel that drumming by a group of people induces a trance-like state which is something similar to the trance-like state induced when people sing HU in a group. I think that both are a type of spiritual experience. So "Eckankar" could perceive a drumming circle as something which could compete for the attention of Eckists (against the HU). What if a group of Eckists decided that they liked drumming together better than singing the HU together? Eckankar couldn't allow that to happen.

      2. A lot of people consider Native American religions to be synonymous with witchcraft or black magic. It was almost a year ago that I mentioned the African-American lady (not an Eckist) who told me that Native American religions which believe that trees and animals have spirits were, in fact, black magic. So if the higher-up who canceled the drumming session had conscious or unconscious thinking along these lines, then they would obviously think that " Native American group drumming," was inappropriate at an Eck seminar.

      3. Or perhaps it is as simple as "Native American drumming is part of Native American religions; therefore, we (Eckankar) shouldn't be incorporating it into Eckankar." Of course, never mind the fact that the HU was taken from the Sufis, and the actual teachings of Eckankar came straight from Hinduism/Sikhism.

      By the way, I know that there are Eckists who do drumming on their own. Or they use feathers or crystals for healing on their own. But as of 2008, my last year in Eckanakar, they were very fanatical about keeping anything like this out of Eckankar. Eckankar says they do this in order to keep the teachings of Eckankar pure, and they certainly have a right to do that. But getting back to the drumming, maybe Eckankar considers group drumming to be akin to somebody bringing a healing crystal into a worship service and telling everybody about it. Any higher-up hearing about that crystal would go ballistic. Most religions change over time, they incorporate new things as they go along, but Eckankar seems to be very static. Except, of course, for changing itself to appear like Christianity. Or, adding a female or black Eck master for political correctness. Basically, they are watering down Eckankar so that it appears less "weird" to potential converts.

      So, summarizing, as far as Eckankar is concerned, is "group drumming" just a harmless activity, or is it

      (1) something that could cut into Eckankar's turf
      (2) something representing the "Kal powers/witchcraft/black magic" and therefore not in tune with Eckankar
      (3) part of somebody else's religion already

      I really don't know, but I hope I thought up some interesting theories for people to consider.

      So I guess the bottom line is that Eckankar has the right to disallow drumming sessions, but when I was a member I often wished they would give us an explanation as to why they made certain decisions. Too often, they either give a vague answer or no answer. And then we Eckists would sit around discuss all the possible reasons. In the end all we ended up with was a bunch of theories. But I am still interested in others thoughts on this topic.
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Jonathan and All, The drumming circle or session was an unofficial activity that some of us were planning after the evening seminar program. Sometimes
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 30, 2009
        Hello Jonathan and All,
        The drumming circle or session
        was an "unofficial" activity that
        some of us were planning after
        the evening seminar program.
        Sometimes I would be with EK
        musicians when they would
        get together for jams as well.
        Since there were no Shamans
        conducting the drumming
        circle we thought it would be
        okay. After all, it wasn't to be
        like a "worship service" nor
        was it involving the Astral, or
        Animism. And, any communication
        with the "Great Spirit" would have
        been seen as the ECK (Spirit).
        'A rose is still a rose by any
        other name.' It wasn't negative
        it was positive, although, one
        could argue that the "positive"
        is still lower plane and tied into
        karma or "tests" and are, therefore,
        still a form of KAL. That's the
        ECK think of it all... right!

        Anyway, it just goes to show how
        religions like to control their followers
        via rules, laws, guidelines, guilt,
        and fear. Eckankar has the RESA
        Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone
        on their "track."

        Here's a quote from the Shariyat 2,
        Chapter 12, involving the Fourth
        Circle:

        "The evolution of the intelligence
        that is the Fourth Circle, the Mental
        Plane, is the gradual rising out of
        the psychic reality. This illusionary
        world is typified in the Indian philosophy
        by the word maya which means
        illusion. In the Buddhist philosophy
        it is known as mara, and in Christianity
        as SATAN, or the DEVIL. It is known
        in the works of ECK as KAL NIRANJAN,
        king of the lower worlds."

        And, in Klemps "Autobiography of a
        Modern Prophet," on page 385, he states:

        "In general, major religions locate
        their heaven on the Mental Plane,
        the so-called Fourth World. These
        include Christianity, the Jewish religion,
        Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism."

        It's interesting that Twitchell designed
        Eckankar around Fourth (Mental) Plane
        religions/philosophies like Ruhani Satsang,
        Theosophy, etc. and that Klemp has
        given Eckankar his own Mental Plane
        Christian (Lutheran) twist when both
        PT and HK have stated that these Mental
        Plane religions are controlled by KAL,
        i.e. Satan or the Devil.

        Prometheus



        jonathanjohns wrote:

        This question in the title of this thread was actually
        put forward by Prometheus in another thread, but
        I thought that I would start a new thread:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/7505

        Prometheus said:

        "BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
        American "drumming" session at
        a major ECK seminar? A group of
        us (once) got an empty room and
        were supposed to have had one
        because I was going to bring over
        one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
        to remember that it got cancelled
        because a higher-up at the ESC
        got wind of it and thought it was
        inappropriate."

        Me: No, I never saw Native American "drumming" session at a major seminar.

        Regarding your statement about why your drumming session was canceled. I tend to
        agree with your explanation that a higher-up heard about it, and probably
        because somebody complained to them. You didn't ask, but since I find this to be
        an interesting subject I spent a lot of time thinking about why "Eckankar" would
        consider a drumming session to be inappropriate. I thought up two possible
        reasons.

        1. I feel that drumming by a group of people induces a trance-like state which
        is something similar to the trance-like state induced when people sing HU in a
        group. I think that both are a type of spiritual experience. So "Eckankar" could
        perceive a drumming circle as something which could compete for the attention
        of Eckists (against the HU). What if a group of Eckists decided that they liked
        drumming together better than singing the HU together? Eckankar couldn't allow
        that to happen.

        2. A lot of people consider Native American religions to be synonymous with
        witchcraft or black magic. It was almost a year ago that I mentioned the
        African-American lady (not an Eckist) who told me that Native American religions
        which believe that trees and animals have spirits were, in fact, black magic. So
        if the higher-up who canceled the drumming session had conscious or unconscious
        thinking along these lines, then they would obviously think that " Native
        American group drumming," was inappropriate at an Eck seminar.

        3. Or perhaps it is as simple as "Native American drumming is part of Native
        American religions; therefore, we (Eckankar) shouldn't be incorporating it into
        Eckankar." Of course, never mind the fact that the HU was taken from the Sufis,
        and the actual teachings of Eckankar came straight from Hinduism/Sikhism.

        By the way, I know that there are Eckists who do drumming on their own. Or they
        use feathers or crystals for healing on their own. But as of 2008, my last year
        in Eckanakar, they were very fanatical about keeping anything like this out of
        Eckankar. Eckankar says they do this in order to keep the teachings of Eckankar
        pure, and they certainly have a right to do that. But getting back to the
        drumming, maybe Eckankar considers group drumming to be akin to somebody
        bringing a healing crystal into a worship service and telling everybody about
        it. Any higher-up hearing about that crystal would go ballistic. Most religions
        change over time, they incorporate new things as they go along, but Eckankar
        seems to be very static. Except, of course, for changing itself to appear like
        Christianity. Or, adding a female or black Eck master for political correctness.
        Basically, they are watering down Eckankar so that it appears less "weird" to
        potential converts.

        So, summarizing, as far as Eckankar is concerned, is
        "group drumming" just a harmless activity, or is it

        (1) something that could cut into Eckankar's turf

        (2) something representing the "Kal powers/witchcraft/
        black magic" and therefore not in tune with Eckankar

        (3) part of somebody else's religion already

        I really don't know, but I hope I thought up some
        interesting theories for people to consider.

        So I guess the bottom line is that Eckankar has the right to disallow drumming
        sessions, but when I was a member I often wished they would give us an
        explanation as to why they made certain decisions. Too often, they either give a
        vague answer or no answer. And then we Eckists would sit around discuss all the
        possible reasons. In the end all we ended up with was a bunch of theories. But I
        am still interested in others thoughts on this topic.
      • jonathanjohns96
        Prometheus, I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn t trying to defend Eckankar when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying to get
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 30, 2009
          Prometheus,

          I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn't trying to defend Eckankar when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying to get into their head to try to figure out what kooky reason they had for canceling it. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time engaged in that same process through the 29 years that I was a member

          I agree completely with your statement "Anyway, it just goes to show how religions like to control their followers via rules, laws, guidelines, guilt, and fear. Eckankar has the RESA Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone on their "track."


          As you stated, you and the other Eckists who were looking forward to the session saw it as something innocent, and whatever energy was going to be brought to the surface was a reflection of the Eck. I'm glad you mentioned that because I wasn't even thinking in those terms. Of course you were thinking in those terms! You were Eckists at an Eck seminar! So, yes, it does show how fanatical Eckankar is when it comes to enforcing the rule "the teachings of Eckankar must be kept pure."

          But when evaluating the whole situation, I also saw that it might be a general reflection of American sociey's overal lack of understanding and respect for Native American culture.
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, Yes, the attempt to do a drumming circle was an innocent act, and it was meant to be fun! And, I ve been at ones where there was NO
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 2, 2009
            Hello Jonathan and All,
            Yes, the attempt to do a "drumming
            circle" was an innocent act, and it was
            meant to be fun! And, I've been at ones
            where there was NO chanting just drumming!
            I find them interesting in that the drumming
            (sound) starts out as individualized/group
            chaos and then harmonizes into a Unity of
            Consciousness. It's a metaphor... for the
            spiritual life.

            Getting back to the use of fear and
            control tactics of religions and of Eckankar:

            Did Eckankar use metal detectors at the
            2009 EWWS? I always thought that was an
            over-the-top/knee-jerk reaction (a security/
            fear tactic) for Klemp to use after 9/11.

            Why should "God" (the Mahanta) be fearful
            of anything or anyone? Couldn't/wouldn't/
            shouldn't Rebazar and the other EK Masters
            manifest themselves to protect Klemp?
            Shouldn't HK be able to protect himself
            and his chelas on the outer, as well as
            (supposedly), on the inner? HK states
            that his "protection" is with his followers.
            But, where's the proof when H.I.s are dying
            of cancer etc. Actually, this is proof that
            Klemp is a liar. Guilt puts blame on the
            chela/H.I. for the cancer (besides, it's a
            "test" of faith) while Klemp dodges his
            promises and responsibilities.

            However, doubt began to creep into Eckists'
            consciousness when the "metal detectors"
            and "searches" began. This created more
            questioning of Klemp's abilities, and his
            truthfulness (as the LEM/Mahanta) began
            to be doubted even more so.

            When "God" (the Mahanta) is fearful and
            needs metal detectors, searches, and a
            security entourage one has to wonder
            about the validity of this religion.

            Then, of course, we have the aging factor.
            Other EK Masters live forever and appear
            rather youthful while Klemp is pale, old
            looking and wrinkled, grey-haired, and
            balding... like anyone else! I'm surprised
            that Eckists can't believe their own eyes!
            What delusion! How does one rationalize
            all of these facts and contradictions? Are
            people that desperate and needy? Yes!

            Eckankar is just another feel good religion
            with all of the rules and regulations and
            busy work, guilt/fear, and ego traps that
            all religions share. Every religion is unique
            and that's why they attract a certain like-
            minded group of individuals. Yet, all of
            these believers think they are right and
            everyone else is wrong and doomed! Unless,
            of course, the sinner is converted. Therefore,
            their "truth" must be shared with the world
            in order to "save" the non-believer from
            the negative effects of Kal, Satan, God, etc.

            And, in EK, there are "inflow" game points
            (initiations and positions) to be achieved
            while doing "God's" missionary (vahana)
            work to help raise the world's consciousness
            via this"outflow." The imagination is fun
            and useful and necessary, but it can, also,
            be a trap and a means of creating delusion.

            Prometheus



            jonathan wrote:

            Prometheus,

            I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn't trying to defend Eckankar
            when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying to get into their
            head to try to figure out what kooky reason they had for canceling it.
            Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time engaged in that same process through the 29
            years that I was a member

            I agree completely with your statement "Anyway, it just goes to show how
            religions like to control their followers via rules, laws, guidelines, guilt,
            and fear. Eckankar has the RESA Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone on their
            "track."


            As you stated, you and the other Eckists who were looking forward to the session
            saw it as something innocent, and whatever energy was going to be brought to the
            surface was a reflection of the Eck. I'm glad you mentioned that because I
            wasn't even thinking in those terms. Of course you were thinking in those terms!
            You were Eckists at an Eck seminar! So, yes, it does show how fanatical Eckankar
            is when it comes to enforcing the rule "the teachings of Eckankar must be kept
            pure."
          • ctecvie
            Hello Prometheus and all, .... and, frankly, who would be interested in attacking a so-called godman from an unknown religion?? YAWN! :-D And yes, little
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 3, 2009
              Hello Prometheus and all,

              .... and, frankly, who would be interested in attacking a so-called "godman" from an unknown religion?? YAWN! :-D
              And yes, little Harry is aging, and shaking, and looking much older than any other 67(or so)-year-old! I guess ekkies just don't remove their pink glasses! Not to see means it isn't there! LOL!

              Ingrid
              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Jonathan and All,
              > Yes, the attempt to do a "drumming
              > circle" was an innocent act, and it was
              > meant to be fun! And, I've been at ones
              > where there was NO chanting just drumming!
              > I find them interesting in that the drumming
              > (sound) starts out as individualized/group
              > chaos and then harmonizes into a Unity of
              > Consciousness. It's a metaphor... for the
              > spiritual life.
              >
              > Getting back to the use of fear and
              > control tactics of religions and of Eckankar:
              >
              > Did Eckankar use metal detectors at the
              > 2009 EWWS? I always thought that was an
              > over-the-top/knee-jerk reaction (a security/
              > fear tactic) for Klemp to use after 9/11.
              >
              > Why should "God" (the Mahanta) be fearful
              > of anything or anyone? Couldn't/wouldn't/
              > shouldn't Rebazar and the other EK Masters
              > manifest themselves to protect Klemp?
              > Shouldn't HK be able to protect himself
              > and his chelas on the outer, as well as
              > (supposedly), on the inner? HK states
              > that his "protection" is with his followers.
              > But, where's the proof when H.I.s are dying
              > of cancer etc. Actually, this is proof that
              > Klemp is a liar. Guilt puts blame on the
              > chela/H.I. for the cancer (besides, it's a
              > "test" of faith) while Klemp dodges his
              > promises and responsibilities.
              >
              > However, doubt began to creep into Eckists'
              > consciousness when the "metal detectors"
              > and "searches" began. This created more
              > questioning of Klemp's abilities, and his
              > truthfulness (as the LEM/Mahanta) began
              > to be doubted even more so.
              >
              > When "God" (the Mahanta) is fearful and
              > needs metal detectors, searches, and a
              > security entourage one has to wonder
              > about the validity of this religion.
              >
              > Then, of course, we have the aging factor.
              > Other EK Masters live forever and appear
              > rather youthful while Klemp is pale, old
              > looking and wrinkled, grey-haired, and
              > balding... like anyone else! I'm surprised
              > that Eckists can't believe their own eyes!
              > What delusion! How does one rationalize
              > all of these facts and contradictions? Are
              > people that desperate and needy? Yes!
              >
              > Eckankar is just another feel good religion
              > with all of the rules and regulations and
              > busy work, guilt/fear, and ego traps that
              > all religions share. Every religion is unique
              > and that's why they attract a certain like-
              > minded group of individuals. Yet, all of
              > these believers think they are right and
              > everyone else is wrong and doomed! Unless,
              > of course, the sinner is converted. Therefore,
              > their "truth" must be shared with the world
              > in order to "save" the non-believer from
              > the negative effects of Kal, Satan, God, etc.
              >
              > And, in EK, there are "inflow" game points
              > (initiations and positions) to be achieved
              > while doing "God's" missionary (vahana)
              > work to help raise the world's consciousness
              > via this"outflow." The imagination is fun
              > and useful and necessary, but it can, also,
              > be a trap and a means of creating delusion.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > jonathan wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >
              > I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn't trying to defend Eckankar
              > when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying to get into their
              > head to try to figure out what kooky reason they had for canceling it.
              > Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time engaged in that same process through the 29
              > years that I was a member
              >
              > I agree completely with your statement "Anyway, it just goes to show how
              > religions like to control their followers via rules, laws, guidelines, guilt,
              > and fear. Eckankar has the RESA Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone on their
              > "track."
              >
              >
              > As you stated, you and the other Eckists who were looking forward to the session
              > saw it as something innocent, and whatever energy was going to be brought to the
              > surface was a reflection of the Eck. I'm glad you mentioned that because I
              > wasn't even thinking in those terms. Of course you were thinking in those terms!
              > You were Eckists at an Eck seminar! So, yes, it does show how fanatical Eckankar
              > is when it comes to enforcing the rule "the teachings of Eckankar must be kept
              > pure."
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Ingrid and All, You have a point there. Why would the 9/11 terrorists, or their cohorts, want to bother with Eckankar? At the time I even thought the
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 4, 2009
                Hello Ingrid and All,
                You have a point there. Why
                would the 9/11 terrorists, or
                their cohorts, want to bother
                with Eckankar? At the time I
                even thought the same thing!
                After all, we (Eckists) weren't
                even Christians! However, it
                was a good excuse to use for
                more detailed searches to
                look for recording devices.
                But, I'm thinking it had more
                to do with Klemp's paranoia...
                it was what L. Ron Hubbard
                would do without a 9/11!

                On another level, complying
                with the metal detectors and
                searches can be seen as KAL
                tests. It's the herd mentality too.
                If EKists comply and don't see
                the "spiritual" implications they
                FAIL the higher test! Detachment/
                Non-attachment to fear and
                other Maya is supposed to be
                the ECK Way! Thus, all current
                Eckists have failed the higher
                spiritual tests while passing
                KAL's tests of fear and illusion!

                Isn't it obvious how easily
                people today (Eckists included)
                comply (obey) and surrender
                their wills (freedom) to authority.
                However, going into a convention
                hall at a religious (EK) seminar for
                a talk shouldn't have the same
                security measures and connotations
                as entering a government building!
                Checking seminar badges should
                be enough security.

                It's all about control. The
                additional security measures
                that Klemp implemented, also,
                measured his ability to control
                his chelas and H.I.s.

                Irregardless, the ECK Dogma
                contradicts these extreme
                security measures. The implications
                of these contradictions (fear
                versus ECK) are right in front
                of every ECKist and yet they
                refuse to see! Instead, EK
                chelas follow the Judas goats
                (RESAs) and the rest of the
                herd (hierarchy).

                Isn't "Detachment" key?
                Isn't it true that there is No
                Death for Soul? Should "fear"
                rule the ECKists' Worlds or
                should "love" rule? Klemp
                talks the talk but doesn't
                walk the walk! He's a hypocrite
                and a KAL agent! Thus, his
                rapid aging and EMF disease
                etc... it's his karma for lying.

                ECKists should challenge
                these untruths and abominations
                that Klemp has established
                to, seemingly, "comply" with
                EK Dogma. Metal Detectors
                and Searches "contradict"
                EK Dogma! Klemp is the
                anti-Mahanta and a Black
                Magician... it's so obvious!

                I recall that at the Oct. 2001
                EWWS the metal detectors and
                searches bothered me, and
                there was no one that had a
                valid answer as to why it was
                being done. I guess they thought
                that it was obvious as to why
                and that no explanation was
                necessary. That might be okay
                for others (non-Eckists) but
                we (Eckists) were/are Soul and
                we had eternal life... there is No
                Death!

                And, (as ECKists) we had the
                "protection" of the LEM/Mahanta
                who was (supposedly) "always"
                with us.

                Why then metal detectors and
                searches, in Oct 2001, and years
                afterwards? I'm sure that this
                made most people feel more
                safe and secure, but it didn't
                make me feel that way. It made
                me doubt what I was being told
                in the EK teachings. I started to
                see thru the facade and make the
                connection that something was
                wrong... very wrong, and it didn't
                feel good!

                For years since 9/11 people arriving
                on busses at the EK Temple have
                had their bags searched and/or
                checked. I saw past the fear mentality
                and saw my religion, Eckankar,
                and my LEM/Mahanta falling short
                of the mark. It was disappointing
                to say the least and it bothered
                me even more so when this policy
                of perpetuating fear was continued
                year after year. Once was bad
                enough, but Klemp's paranoia
                and then Ford's revelations all
                added up to be too much truth
                to avoid seeing.

                Actually, Ford's book was the
                final straw. I was hanging on
                tight but could no longer avoid
                the cold hard truth! Klemp was
                a fraud and Eckankar was just
                another religious con designed
                by a narcissist and liar (PT).

                Actually, it seems that all three
                LEMs were/are narcissists and liars,
                as well as, unstable and delusional.
                ECKists use the term: "As above, so
                below," but does "fear" rule or even
                exist in the higher planes "above?"
                Why then metal detectors and searches?

                Prometheus
                p.s. And yes, HK's hand shaking, and
                rapid aging is another contradiction
                to the EK teachings. It's another in-
                your-face obvious truth that needs
                to be placed outside of one's scrutiny
                and avoided at all costs. Eckists simply
                can't and won't admit that they've
                been lied to. It's too easy and comfortable
                to believe what you're told, and too
                difficult to change. Besides, what do
                Eckists have to replace Eckankar with?
                Self-Mastery has less effort, but has
                too much responsibility!



                ctecvie wrote:

                Hello Prometheus and all,

                .... and, frankly, who would be interested
                in attacking a so-called "godman" from
                an unknown religion?? YAWN! :-D

                And yes, little Harry is aging, and shaking,
                and looking much older than any other 67
                (or so)-year-old! I guess ekkies just don't
                remove their pink glasses!

                Not to see means it isn't there! LOL!

                Ingrid

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello Jonathan and All,
                > Yes, the attempt to do a "drumming
                > circle" was an innocent act, and it was
                > meant to be fun! And, I've been at ones
                > where there was NO chanting just drumming!
                > I find them interesting in that the drumming
                > (sound) starts out as individualized/group
                > chaos and then harmonizes into a Unity of
                > Consciousness. It's a metaphor... for the
                > spiritual life.
                >
                > Getting back to the use of fear and
                > control tactics of religions and of Eckankar:
                >
                > Did Eckankar use metal detectors at the
                > 2009 EWWS? I always thought that was an
                > over-the-top/knee-jerk reaction (a security/
                > fear tactic) for Klemp to use after 9/11.
                >
                > Why should "God" (the Mahanta) be fearful
                > of anything or anyone? Couldn't/wouldn't/
                > shouldn't Rebazar and the other EK Masters
                > manifest themselves to protect Klemp?
                > Shouldn't HK be able to protect himself
                > and his chelas on the outer, as well as
                > (supposedly), on the inner? HK states
                > that his "protection" is with his followers.
                > But, where's the proof when H.I.s are dying
                > of cancer etc. Actually, this is proof that
                > Klemp is a liar. Guilt puts blame on the
                > chela/H.I. for the cancer (besides, it's a
                > "test" of faith) while Klemp dodges his
                > promises and responsibilities.
                >
                > However, doubt began to creep into Eckists'
                > consciousness when the "metal detectors"
                > and "searches" began. This created more
                > questioning of Klemp's abilities, and his
                > truthfulness (as the LEM/Mahanta) began
                > to be doubted even more so.
                >
                > When "God" (the Mahanta) is fearful and
                > needs metal detectors, searches, and a
                > security entourage one has to wonder
                > about the validity of this religion.
                >
                > Then, of course, we have the aging factor.
                > Other EK Masters live forever and appear
                > rather youthful while Klemp is pale, old
                > looking and wrinkled, grey-haired, and
                > balding... like anyone else! I'm surprised
                > that Eckists can't believe their own eyes!
                > What delusion! How does one rationalize
                > all of these facts and contradictions? Are
                > people that desperate and needy? Yes!
                >
                > Eckankar is just another feel good religion
                > with all of the rules and regulations and
                > busy work, guilt/fear, and ego traps that
                > all religions share. Every religion is unique
                > and that's why they attract a certain like-
                > minded group of individuals. Yet, all of
                > these believers think they are right and
                > everyone else is wrong and doomed! Unless,
                > of course, the sinner is converted. Therefore,
                > their "truth" must be shared with the world
                > in order to "save" the non-believer from
                > the negative effects of Kal, Satan, God, etc.
                >
                > And, in EK, there are "inflow" game points
                > (initiations and positions) to be achieved
                > while doing "God's" missionary (vahana)
                > work to help raise the world's consciousness
                > via this"outflow." The imagination is fun
                > and useful and necessary, but it can, also,
                > be a trap and a means of creating delusion.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                jonathan wrote:
                >
                Prometheus,
                >
                I just wanted to clarify to everybody that I wasn't trying to defend
                Eckankar when they canceled the drumming session. I was just trying
                to get into their head to try to figure out what kooky reason they had
                for canceling it. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time engaged in that
                same process through the 29 years that I was a member
                >
                I agree completely with your statement "Anyway, it just goes to show
                how religions like to control their followers via rules, laws, guidelines,
                guilt, and fear. Eckankar has the RESA Hierarchy (Police) to keep everyone
                on their "track."
                >
                >
                As you stated, you and the other Eckists who were looking forward
                to the session saw it as something innocent, and whatever energy was
                going to be brought to the surface was a reflection of the Eck. I'm glad
                you mentioned that because I wasn't even thinking in those terms. Of
                course you were thinking in those terms!

                You were Eckists at an Eck seminar! So, yes, it does show how fanatical
                Eckankar is when it comes to enforcing the rule "the teachings of Eckankar
                must be kept pure."
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.