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Does anybody remember the time that Darwin banned Levis at seminars?

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  • jonathanjohns96
    Months ago I made a lot of posts on this message board and on the other board. Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia or nostalgia. It s really not a
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 22, 2009
      Months ago I made a lot of posts on this message board and on the "other" board. Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia or nostalgia. It's really not a serious topic.

      I joined Eckankar around 1979 when Darwin was still the LEM. One day, out of nowhere, probably around 1980, I got one of those blue letters in the blue envelope directly from Darwin/Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the chelas, and I believe it was before Harold Klemp became the LEM. But what was written in this letter rather surprised me. Darwin stated that chelas should not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars. The implication or direct statement was that this was too casual. There may have been a statement about how Eckankar needed to project a better image.

      I believe he made additional statements about other articles of clothing, but I especially noticed the word "Levis" because this is actually a trademarked name of a company, not a type of clothing. I am assuming that what he raelly meant was "blue jeans," but he might have also been including other styles of pants which were just as casual.

      This letter bothered me, and not just because I hate to dress up, and I also hate it when people tell me I have to dress up. The other reason that it bothered me was that a month or two before I received this letter from Darwin, I had listened to an audio tape where he emphatically stated "There are no rules and regulations in Eckankar." So I'm reading this letter and thinking to myself "Wait a minute! What did you just say in your tape!?"

      I realize that this isn't the most important topic about Eckankar, but I would like to expand on it a bit. The really humerous thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress up when he gave talks although I didn't even think about that when I read that letter (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM could do no wrong. I believe that for talks, Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps a dress shirt, but the top button was unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right To Know" where he is apparently signing autographs for chelas and he is dressed like this. I would assume that this took place at a major seminar.

      But as I was driving my car this morning, something occurred to me. Klemp always wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.

      I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this. Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar "presentable" to the public. I don't think that it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if you hang out around the members of Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are obsessed with how the public percieves Eckankar.

      AS a sidelight, I have one memory about Paul to share. There was a talk that Paul gave to an American audience where he was telling them about his expereince in giving talks in Europe. He said that he would start out the talk all dressed up, but as the talk went on he would take his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the floor, etc. I believe he also said that he loosened his tie up, which meant that he actually was wearing one. Put it was funny when Paul commented on the reaction of the Europen audiences: "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and down." Paul meant it as a humerous story, and also as a story pointing out the difference between Americans being more causual that Europeans. So although Paul apparently wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk progressed, his desire for personal comfort apparently won out over his desire to present the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist anyway so I think that he really didn't care very much waht people thought.

      But getting back to Darwin. It seemed that he sent out a lot of letters directly to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp, he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after that Darwin letter, I had just reached the point where I pretty much ignored all of them.

      Two questions:
      1. Does anybody but me remember that letter that Darwin sent out?
      2. Did Darwin really dress casually when giving talks?
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, No, I don t remember that letter about Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin wore them at the Broken Bow campouts and other places like Sedona. He d
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 24, 2009
        Hello All,
        No, I don't remember that letter about
        Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
        wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
        and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
        wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
        or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
        casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
        and khaki slacks when walking to and from
        seminar meetings, and this is how he
        often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
        Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
        with him for outside or for a more formal
        look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
        for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
        he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
        and the gang.

        Maybe you could go on Facebook
        and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
        then ask him some things about Darwin.
        Who knows... he might be willing to share
        some history. Then again, he might be
        afraid to share things if it got back to
        HK that he was talking about Darwin.

        It is funny to see those Passing of the
        Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
        light blue dress shirts with collars open!

        Yes, I remember that I was told that there
        were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
        were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
        By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
        except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
        expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
        added his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
        to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
        Eventually HK had to write two leadership
        books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
        the restrictions on thought and behaviour.

        Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
        rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
        most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
        only natural that there should be open
        discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
        Only a religious leader can proclaim that
        Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
        in the next. But, not all religions have a
        God-like leader with the ultimate power
        and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
        and demote members without a trial or
        an open discussion or giving just cause
        via a two-way answering of questions.


        Prometheus



        jonathanjohns wrote:

        Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
        message board and on the "other" board.
        Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
        or nostalgia. It's really
        not a serious topic.

        I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
        Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
        out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
        I got one of those blue letters in the
        blue envelope directly from Darwin/
        Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
        chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
        Klemp became the LEM. But what was
        written in this letter rather surprised
        me. Darwin stated that chelas should
        not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
        The implication or direct statement
        was that this was too casual. There
        may have been a statement about how
        Eckankar needed to project a better
        image.

        I believe he made additional statements
        about other articles of clothing, but
        I especially noticed the word "Levis"
        because this is actually a trademarked
        name of a company, not a type of clothing.
        I am assuming that what he raelly meant
        was "blue jeans," but he might have also
        been including other styles of pants
        which were just as casual.

        This letter bothered me, and not just
        because I hate to dress up, and I also
        hate it when people tell me I have to
        dress up. The other reason that it
        bothered me was that a month or two
        before I received this letter from Darwin,
        I had listened to an audio tape where
        he emphatically stated "There are no
        rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
        I'm reading this letter and thinking to
        myself "Wait a minute! What did you
        just say in your tape!?"

        I realize that this isn't the most important
        topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
        expand on it a bit. The really humerous
        thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
        up when he gave talks although I didn't
        even think about that when I read that letter
        (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
        could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
        Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
        a dress shirt, but the top button was
        unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
        a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
        To Know" where he is apparently signing
        autographs for chelas and he is dressed
        like this. I would assume that this took
        place at a major seminar.

        But as I was driving my car this morning,
        something occurred to me. Klemp always
        wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.

        I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

        Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
        the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
        tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
        Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
        "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
        it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
        make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
        you hang out around the members of
        Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
        obsessed with how the public percieves
        Eckankar.

        AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
        Paul to share. There was a talk that
        Paul gave to an American audience where
        he was telling them about his expereince
        in giving talks in Europe. He said that
        he would start out the talk all dressed
        up, but as the talk went on he would take
        his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
        floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
        loosened his tie up, which meant that
        he actually was wearing one. Put it was
        funny when Paul commented on the
        reaction of the Europen audiences:

        "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
        down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
        and also as a story pointing out the difference
        between Americans being more casual
        than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
        wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
        progressed, his desire for personal comfort
        apparently won out over his desire to present
        the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
        anyway so I think that he really didn't care
        very much waht people thought.

        But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
        that he sent out a lot of letters directly
        to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
        he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
        that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
        point where I pretty much ignored all of them.

        Two questions:
        1. Does anybody but me remember that
        letter that Darwin sent out?

        2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
        giving talks?
      • jonathanjohns96
        Prometheus, Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do. I appreciated your comments about Darwin s attire. Since I joined
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 27, 2009
          Prometheus,

          Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do.

          I appreciated your comments about Darwin's attire. Since I joined around 1979, and Darwin was gone about four years later, I don't remember a whole lot about him. I found your comment that Darwin dressed in a tux when playing music onstage to be very interesting. It proves to me that Darwin did put effort into dressing appropriately for the occasion. I have never paid much attention to how people dress.

          That letter that Darwin sent out must have really bothered me at the time. The hypocrisy/contradiction with what Darwin had said earlier. But it is just one of many examples. I absolutely remember the letter because I had been listening to a guy on the radio named Bruce Williams who gives economic/business advice to people. He had recently explained how a lot of people in everyday conversation use a trademarked brand name such as "Kleenex" for an everyday item (facial tissue), and usually don't even realize what they are doing. Another example he gave was "Laundromat" which is a trademarked term of the Laundromat Corp., but people use it as an everyday term for a coin laundry. So when Darwin said "Levis" in the letter it really caught my attention, simply for this reason. So I definitely didn't imagine the letter because I was saying to myself "Darwin is doing the same thing that Bruce Williams warned about, using a trademarked name (Levis) for an everyday item (blue jeans)." So the letter was real. Also, I doubt that anyone at the seminars actually enforced Darwin's decree.

          I never had a problem with Darwin's music although I have very little interest in Jazz. I thought it was OK. It even sounded spiritual to me. But Darwin never managed to get me to appreciate Jazz! lol

          It seems almost funny in retrospect how we let these people (LEMs) run our lives. When Darwin was the LEM, I understand that they always had big band music and dancing at Eckankar's big events. In deference to Darwin of course. And I even remember Darwin once commenting that Big Band music was going to make a big comeback. In retrospect, that prediction seems like one of Darwin's personal fantasies rather than something that was actually going to come true. But at the time I'm sure that all of we loyal Eckists probably took him seriously, even believing him outright.

          One last comment. About two years ago I was parked near a church on Sunday morning. I saw some people walking down the street. It seemed that they must be going to church, but they were dressed so casually! I couldn't believe it! By the way, I did verify that they were indeed going to the Catholic Church just down the street. This shocked me because I hadn't been to a Christian church )I was Protestant) since about 1976 (2007-1976=31 years). So in 31 years the attire for people going to church completely changed from what I HAD to wear (a dress suit and tie, plus polished leather shoes) to casual, although I would still be surprised to see someone wearing blue jeans.

          For those of you who are outsiders to Eckankar, I would say that both the seminars and the meetings at Eck centers it definitely trends toward casual. It does vary from Eck center to Eck center though. In my last ten years in Eckankar 1999-2008, I attended worship services at two different Eck centers. At one, things were 100% casual. At the other one, it was mostly casual, but a few people did come "dressed from church." I especially remember an African family that always dressed up. But I can remember some of the top honchos at the center dressing completely casually so it wasn't as if they were attempting to set an example for everyone to "dress up."

          I really feel that there has been an overwhelming trend in the last 30 years toward more casual. But there are other countries that still insist on dressing up. A caller to a talk show in the 1970s or 1980s, a man from Germany, said that he liked something in the United States better than Germany. He said that people in Germany wear a suit and tie when they go out to the movies. I don't remember that happening in the United States, even in the 1960s.


          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello All,
          > No, I don't remember that letter about
          > Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
          > wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
          > and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
          > wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
          > or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
          > casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
          > and khaki slacks when walking to and from
          > seminar meetings, and this is how he
          > often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
          > Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
          > with him for outside or for a more formal
          > look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
          > for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
          > he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
          > and the gang.
          >
          > Maybe you could go on Facebook
          > and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
          > then ask him some things about Darwin.
          > Who knows... he might be willing to share
          > some history. Then again, he might be
          > afraid to share things if it got back to
          > HK that he was talking about Darwin.
          >
          > It is funny to see those Passing of the
          > Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
          > light blue dress shirts with collars open!
          >
          > Yes, I remember that I was told that there
          > were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
          > were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
          > By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
          > except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
          > expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
          > added his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
          > to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
          > Eventually HK had to write two leadership
          > books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
          > the restrictions on thought and behaviour.
          >
          > Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
          > rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
          > most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
          > only natural that there should be open
          > discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
          > Only a religious leader can proclaim that
          > Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
          > in the next. But, not all religions have a
          > God-like leader with the ultimate power
          > and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
          > and demote members without a trial or
          > an open discussion or giving just cause
          > via a two-way answering of questions.
          >
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          > jonathanjohns wrote:
          >
          > Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
          > message board and on the "other" board.
          > Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
          > or nostalgia. It's really
          > not a serious topic.
          >
          > I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
          > Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
          > out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
          > I got one of those blue letters in the
          > blue envelope directly from Darwin/
          > Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
          > chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
          > Klemp became the LEM. But what was
          > written in this letter rather surprised
          > me. Darwin stated that chelas should
          > not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
          > The implication or direct statement
          > was that this was too casual. There
          > may have been a statement about how
          > Eckankar needed to project a better
          > image.
          >
          > I believe he made additional statements
          > about other articles of clothing, but
          > I especially noticed the word "Levis"
          > because this is actually a trademarked
          > name of a company, not a type of clothing.
          > I am assuming that what he raelly meant
          > was "blue jeans," but he might have also
          > been including other styles of pants
          > which were just as casual.
          >
          > This letter bothered me, and not just
          > because I hate to dress up, and I also
          > hate it when people tell me I have to
          > dress up. The other reason that it
          > bothered me was that a month or two
          > before I received this letter from Darwin,
          > I had listened to an audio tape where
          > he emphatically stated "There are no
          > rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
          > I'm reading this letter and thinking to
          > myself "Wait a minute! What did you
          > just say in your tape!?"
          >
          > I realize that this isn't the most important
          > topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
          > expand on it a bit. The really humerous
          > thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
          > up when he gave talks although I didn't
          > even think about that when I read that letter
          > (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
          > could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
          > Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
          > a dress shirt, but the top button was
          > unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
          > a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
          > To Know" where he is apparently signing
          > autographs for chelas and he is dressed
          > like this. I would assume that this took
          > place at a major seminar.
          >
          > But as I was driving my car this morning,
          > something occurred to me. Klemp always
          > wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.
          >
          > I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
          >
          > Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
          > the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
          > tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
          > Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
          > "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
          > it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
          > make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
          > you hang out around the members of
          > Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
          > obsessed with how the public percieves
          > Eckankar.
          >
          > AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
          > Paul to share. There was a talk that
          > Paul gave to an American audience where
          > he was telling them about his expereince
          > in giving talks in Europe. He said that
          > he would start out the talk all dressed
          > up, but as the talk went on he would take
          > his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
          > floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
          > loosened his tie up, which meant that
          > he actually was wearing one. Put it was
          > funny when Paul commented on the
          > reaction of the Europen audiences:
          >
          > "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
          > down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
          > and also as a story pointing out the difference
          > between Americans being more casual
          > than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
          > wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
          > progressed, his desire for personal comfort
          > apparently won out over his desire to present
          > the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
          > anyway so I think that he really didn't care
          > very much waht people thought.
          >
          > But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
          > that he sent out a lot of letters directly
          > to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
          > he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
          > that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
          > point where I pretty much ignored all of them.
          >
          > Two questions:
          > 1. Does anybody but me remember that
          > letter that Darwin sent out?
          >
          > 2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
          > giving talks?
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Jonathan and All, The more I think about it I do remember a remark about a dress code and no Levis. Today, the blue jeans thing mostly affects male
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 28, 2009
            Hello Jonathan and All,
            The more I think about it I do remember
            a remark about a dress code and no Levis.
            Today, the blue jeans thing mostly affects
            male volunteers at major seminars (when
            seminar leaders assign duties), or locally
            when doing an intro, or the EWS as the
            conducting cleric. Jeans are still okay for
            many EK events, unless, you're conducting
            the event.

            Also, I used to dress in suit and tie when
            I worked at the major EK seminars. One
            needed a jacket to "hide" all of the
            electronic surveillance/communications
            equipment (walkie-talkies, etc.) and battery
            packs. BTW, Germans and Europeans, in
            general, still have more dress codes than
            Americans. Black and white are traditional
            colors in Germany and Lederhosen (shorts)
            are not worn much (except during festivals)
            even during hot weather. Dress is very
            conservative and people tend to follow
            the crowd, and conform. For some reason
            they don't want to stand out as being
            individualistic. Then, again, it does seem
            that they are more regulated and responsible
            than we are and that might be a good
            thing for some things.

            In regard to Darwin's music I didn't get
            into jazz either. However, I think that
            Darwin's opinion/prediction about the
            Big Band music catching on was true.
            Look at the youth (since 1981) who have/
            had gotten involved with Swing dancing.
            Jim Carey was in the movie Mask and it
            had Big Band music and there was the
            movie Swingers. Many other things
            indicated a revival of this music. I
            walked into a bar/restaurant about
            ten or so years ago where young college
            age people were doing Swing dancing
            to Big Band music and it was really
            fun to watch. I can't remember if Big
            Band music was ever played at the
            "social" dance at one of HK's major
            EK seminars... maybe it has been!

            BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
            American "drumming" session at
            a major ECK seminar? A group of
            us (once) got an empty room and
            were supposed to have had one
            because I was going to bring over
            one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
            to remember that it got cancelled
            because a higher-up at the ESC
            got wind of it and thought it was
            inappropriate.


            Prometheus


            jonathanjohns wrote:

            Prometheus,

            Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do.

            I appreciated your comments about Darwin's attire. Since I joined around 1979,
            and Darwin was gone about four years later, I don't remember a whole lot about
            him. I found your comment that Darwin dressed in a tux when playing music
            onstage to be very interesting. It proves to me that Darwin did put effort into
            dressing appropriately for the occasion. I have never paid much attention to how
            people dress.

            That letter that Darwin sent out must have really bothered me at the time. The
            hypocrisy/contradiction with what Darwin had said earlier. But it is just one of
            many examples. I absolutely remember the letter because I had been listening to
            a guy on the radio named Bruce Williams who gives economic/business advice to
            people. He had recently explained how a lot of people in everyday conversation
            use a trademarked brand name such as "Kleenex" for an everyday item (facial
            tissue), and usually don't even realize what they are doing. Another example he
            gave was "Laundromat" which is a trademarked term of the Laundromat Corp., but
            people use it as an everyday term for a coin laundry. So when Darwin said
            "Levis" in the letter it really caught my attention, simply for this reason. So
            I definitely didn't imagine the letter because I was saying to myself "Darwin is
            doing the same thing that Bruce Williams warned about, using a trademarked name
            (Levis) for an everyday item (blue jeans)." So the letter was real. Also, I
            doubt that anyone at the seminars actually enforced Darwin's decree.

            I never had a problem with Darwin's music although I have very little interest
            in Jazz. I thought it was OK. It even sounded spiritual to me. But Darwin never
            managed to get me to appreciate Jazz! lol

            It seems almost funny in retrospect how we let these people (LEMs) run our
            lives. When Darwin was the LEM, I understand that they always had big band music
            and dancing at Eckankar's big events. In deference to Darwin of course. And I
            even remember Darwin once commenting that Big Band music was going to make a big
            comeback. In retrospect, that prediction seems like one of Darwin's personal
            fantasies rather than something that was actually going to come true. But at the
            time I'm sure that all of we loyal Eckists probably took him seriously, even
            believing him outright.

            One last comment. About two years ago I was parked near a church on Sunday
            morning. I saw some people walking down the street. It seemed that they must be
            going to church, but they were dressed so casually! I couldn't believe it! By
            the way, I did verify that they were indeed going to the Catholic Church just
            down the street. This shocked me because I hadn't been to a Christian church ) I
            was Protestant) since about 1976 (2007-1976=31 years). So in 31 years the attire
            for people going to church completely changed from what I HAD to wear (a dress
            suit and tie, plus polished leather shoes) to casual, although I would still be
            surprised to see someone wearing blue jeans.

            For those of you who are outsiders to Eckankar, I would say that both the
            seminars and the meetings at Eck centers it definitely trends toward casual. It
            does vary from Eck center to Eck center though. In my last ten years in Eckankar
            1999-2008, I attended worship services at two different Eck centers. At one,
            things were 100% casual. At the other one, it was mostly casual, but a few
            people did come "dressed from church." I especially remember an African family
            that always dressed up. But I can remember some of the top honchos at the center
            dressing completely casually so it wasn't as if they were attempting to set an
            example for everyone to "dress up."

            I really feel that there has been an overwhelming trend in the last 30 years
            toward more casual. But there are other countries that still insist on dressing
            up. A caller to a talk show in the 1970s or 1980s, a man from Germany, said that
            he liked something in the United States better than Germany. He said that people
            in Germany wear a suit and tie when they go out to the movies. I don't remember
            that happening in the United States, even in the 1960s.


            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > No, I don't remember that letter about
            > Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
            > wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
            > and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
            > wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
            > or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
            > casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
            > and khaki slacks when walking to and from
            > seminar meetings, and this is how he
            > often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
            > Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
            > with him for outside or for a more formal
            > look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
            > for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
            > he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
            > and the gang.
            >
            > Maybe you could go on Facebook
            > and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
            > then ask him some things about Darwin.
            > Who knows... he might be willing to share
            > some history. Then again, he might be
            > afraid to share things if it got back to
            > HK that he was talking about Darwin.
            >
            > It is funny to see those Passing of the
            > Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
            > light blue dress shirts with collars open!
            >
            > Yes, I remember that I was told that there
            > were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
            > were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
            > By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
            > except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
            > expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
            > added his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
            > to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
            > Eventually HK had to write two leadership
            > books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
            > the restrictions on thought and behaviour.
            >
            > Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
            > rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
            > most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
            > only natural that there should be open
            > discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
            > Only a religious leader can proclaim that
            > Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
            > in the next. But, not all religions have a
            > God-like leader with the ultimate power
            > and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
            > and demote members without a trial or
            > an open discussion or giving just cause
            > via a two-way answering of questions.
            >
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            > jonathanjohns wrote:
            >
            > Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
            > message board and on the "other" board.
            > Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
            > or nostalgia. It's really
            > not a serious topic.
            >
            > I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
            > Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
            > out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
            > I got one of those blue letters in the
            > blue envelope directly from Darwin/
            > Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
            > chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
            > Klemp became the LEM. But what was
            > written in this letter rather surprised
            > me. Darwin stated that chelas should
            > not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
            > The implication or direct statement
            > was that this was too casual. There
            > may have been a statement about how
            > Eckankar needed to project a better
            > image.
            >
            > I believe he made additional statements
            > about other articles of clothing, but
            > I especially noticed the word "Levis"
            > because this is actually a trademarked
            > name of a company, not a type of clothing.
            > I am assuming that what he raelly meant
            > was "blue jeans," but he might have also
            > been including other styles of pants
            > which were just as casual.
            >
            > This letter bothered me, and not just
            > because I hate to dress up, and I also
            > hate it when people tell me I have to
            > dress up. The other reason that it
            > bothered me was that a month or two
            > before I received this letter from Darwin,
            > I had listened to an audio tape where
            > he emphatically stated "There are no
            > rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
            > I'm reading this letter and thinking to
            > myself "Wait a minute! What did you
            > just say in your tape!?"
            >
            > I realize that this isn't the most important
            > topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
            > expand on it a bit. The really humerous
            > thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
            > up when he gave talks although I didn't
            > even think about that when I read that letter
            > (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
            > could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
            > Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
            > a dress shirt, but the top button was
            > unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
            > a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
            > To Know" where he is apparently signing
            > autographs for chelas and he is dressed
            > like this. I would assume that this took
            > place at a major seminar.
            >
            > But as I was driving my car this morning,
            > something occurred to me. Klemp always
            > wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.
            >
            > I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
            >
            > Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
            > the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
            > tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
            > Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
            > "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
            > it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
            > make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
            > you hang out around the members of
            > Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
            > obsessed with how the public percieves
            > Eckankar.
            >
            > AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
            > Paul to share. There was a talk that
            > Paul gave to an American audience where
            > he was telling them about his expereince
            > in giving talks in Europe. He said that
            > he would start out the talk all dressed
            > up, but as the talk went on he would take
            > his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
            > floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
            > loosened his tie up, which meant that
            > he actually was wearing one. Put it was
            > funny when Paul commented on the
            > reaction of the Europen audiences:
            >
            > "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
            > down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
            > and also as a story pointing out the difference
            > between Americans being more casual
            > than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
            > wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
            > progressed, his desire for personal comfort
            > apparently won out over his desire to present
            > the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
            > anyway so I think that he really didn't care
            > very much waht people thought.
            >
            > But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
            > that he sent out a lot of letters directly
            > to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
            > he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
            > that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
            > point where I pretty much ignored all of them.
            >
            > Two questions:
            > 1. Does anybody but me remember that
            > letter that Darwin sent out?
            >
            > 2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
            > giving talks?
          • jonathanjohns96
            I actually agree with you about Big Band music. There has been some interest, and my attitude is that any interest by young people is surprising. I guess when
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 29, 2009
              I actually agree with you about Big Band music. There has been some interest, and my attitude is that any interest by young people is surprising. I guess when I heard Darwin's comment I was thinking in terms of something much more significant than what has actually happened.

              I think this thread is getting kinda long so I am going to start a new one to comment on your question about whether they ever had a Native American drumming session at a major seminar.
            • ctecvie
              Hi Prometheus and all, thanks for all the informative posts about dress codes and such! Well, a blue jeans can look very elegant to, if worn with a nice jacket
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 29, 2009
                Hi Prometheus and all,

                thanks for all the informative posts about dress codes and such! Well, a blue jeans can look very elegant to, if worn with a nice jacket I think - and of course if there are no holes in it! :-)

                Just to correct one little thing about the Lederhosen: Lederhosen means leather trousers (pants)and is a national folklore clothing in the Southern parts of Germany (not at all in the north! LOL!) and all over Austria. However, it's not at all the same than shorts - there are short and long Lederhosen. You can wear shorts in the hot season of course, but as you said correctly Prometheus, one would not wear shorts during an event, especially if one has to give or conduct talks!

                Ingrid

                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Jonathan and All,
                > The more I think about it I do remember
                > a remark about a dress code and no Levis.
                > Today, the blue jeans thing mostly affects
                > male volunteers at major seminars (when
                > seminar leaders assign duties), or locally
                > when doing an intro, or the EWS as the
                > conducting cleric. Jeans are still okay for
                > many EK events, unless, you're conducting
                > the event.
                >
                > Also, I used to dress in suit and tie when
                > I worked at the major EK seminars. One
                > needed a jacket to "hide" all of the
                > electronic surveillance/communications
                > equipment (walkie-talkies, etc.) and battery
                > packs. BTW, Germans and Europeans, in
                > general, still have more dress codes than
                > Americans. Black and white are traditional
                > colors in Germany and Lederhosen (shorts)
                > are not worn much (except during festivals)
                > even during hot weather. Dress is very
                > conservative and people tend to follow
                > the crowd, and conform. For some reason
                > they don't want to stand out as being
                > individualistic. Then, again, it does seem
                > that they are more regulated and responsible
                > than we are and that might be a good
                > thing for some things.
                >
                > In regard to Darwin's music I didn't get
                > into jazz either. However, I think that
                > Darwin's opinion/prediction about the
                > Big Band music catching on was true.
                > Look at the youth (since 1981) who have/
                > had gotten involved with Swing dancing.
                > Jim Carey was in the movie Mask and it
                > had Big Band music and there was the
                > movie Swingers. Many other things
                > indicated a revival of this music. I
                > walked into a bar/restaurant about
                > ten or so years ago where young college
                > age people were doing Swing dancing
                > to Big Band music and it was really
                > fun to watch. I can't remember if Big
                > Band music was ever played at the
                > "social" dance at one of HK's major
                > EK seminars... maybe it has been!
                >
                > BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
                > American "drumming" session at
                > a major ECK seminar? A group of
                > us (once) got an empty room and
                > were supposed to have had one
                > because I was going to bring over
                > one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
                > to remember that it got cancelled
                > because a higher-up at the ESC
                > got wind of it and thought it was
                > inappropriate.
                >
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > jonathanjohns wrote:
                >
                > Prometheus,
                >
                > Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do.
                >
                > I appreciated your comments about Darwin's attire. Since I joined around 1979,
                > and Darwin was gone about four years later, I don't remember a whole lot about
                > him. I found your comment that Darwin dressed in a tux when playing music
                > onstage to be very interesting. It proves to me that Darwin did put effort into
                > dressing appropriately for the occasion. I have never paid much attention to how
                > people dress.
                >
                > That letter that Darwin sent out must have really bothered me at the time. The
                > hypocrisy/contradiction with what Darwin had said earlier. But it is just one of
                > many examples. I absolutely remember the letter because I had been listening to
                > a guy on the radio named Bruce Williams who gives economic/business advice to
                > people. He had recently explained how a lot of people in everyday conversation
                > use a trademarked brand name such as "Kleenex" for an everyday item (facial
                > tissue), and usually don't even realize what they are doing. Another example he
                > gave was "Laundromat" which is a trademarked term of the Laundromat Corp., but
                > people use it as an everyday term for a coin laundry. So when Darwin said
                > "Levis" in the letter it really caught my attention, simply for this reason. So
                > I definitely didn't imagine the letter because I was saying to myself "Darwin is
                > doing the same thing that Bruce Williams warned about, using a trademarked name
                > (Levis) for an everyday item (blue jeans)." So the letter was real. Also, I
                > doubt that anyone at the seminars actually enforced Darwin's decree.
                >
                > I never had a problem with Darwin's music although I have very little interest
                > in Jazz. I thought it was OK. It even sounded spiritual to me. But Darwin never
                > managed to get me to appreciate Jazz! lol
                >
                > It seems almost funny in retrospect how we let these people (LEMs) run our
                > lives. When Darwin was the LEM, I understand that they always had big band music
                > and dancing at Eckankar's big events. In deference to Darwin of course. And I
                > even remember Darwin once commenting that Big Band music was going to make a big
                > comeback. In retrospect, that prediction seems like one of Darwin's personal
                > fantasies rather than something that was actually going to come true. But at the
                > time I'm sure that all of we loyal Eckists probably took him seriously, even
                > believing him outright.
                >
                > One last comment. About two years ago I was parked near a church on Sunday
                > morning. I saw some people walking down the street. It seemed that they must be
                > going to church, but they were dressed so casually! I couldn't believe it! By
                > the way, I did verify that they were indeed going to the Catholic Church just
                > down the street. This shocked me because I hadn't been to a Christian church ) I
                > was Protestant) since about 1976 (2007-1976=31 years). So in 31 years the attire
                > for people going to church completely changed from what I HAD to wear (a dress
                > suit and tie, plus polished leather shoes) to casual, although I would still be
                > surprised to see someone wearing blue jeans.
                >
                > For those of you who are outsiders to Eckankar, I would say that both the
                > seminars and the meetings at Eck centers it definitely trends toward casual. It
                > does vary from Eck center to Eck center though. In my last ten years in Eckankar
                > 1999-2008, I attended worship services at two different Eck centers. At one,
                > things were 100% casual. At the other one, it was mostly casual, but a few
                > people did come "dressed from church." I especially remember an African family
                > that always dressed up. But I can remember some of the top honchos at the center
                > dressing completely casually so it wasn't as if they were attempting to set an
                > example for everyone to "dress up."
                >
                > I really feel that there has been an overwhelming trend in the last 30 years
                > toward more casual. But there are other countries that still insist on dressing
                > up. A caller to a talk show in the 1970s or 1980s, a man from Germany, said that
                > he liked something in the United States better than Germany. He said that people
                > in Germany wear a suit and tie when they go out to the movies. I don't remember
                > that happening in the United States, even in the 1960s.
                >
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello All,
                > > No, I don't remember that letter about
                > > Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
                > > wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
                > > and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
                > > wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
                > > or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
                > > casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
                > > and khaki slacks when walking to and from
                > > seminar meetings, and this is how he
                > > often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
                > > Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
                > > with him for outside or for a more formal
                > > look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
                > > for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
                > > he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
                > > and the gang.
                > >
                > > Maybe you could go on Facebook
                > > and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
                > > then ask him some things about Darwin.
                > > Who knows... he might be willing to share
                > > some history. Then again, he might be
                > > afraid to share things if it got back to
                > > HK that he was talking about Darwin.
                > >
                > > It is funny to see those Passing of the
                > > Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
                > > light blue dress shirts with collars open!
                > >
                > > Yes, I remember that I was told that there
                > > were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
                > > were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
                > > By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
                > > except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
                > > expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
                > > added his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
                > > to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
                > > Eventually HK had to write two leadership
                > > books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
                > > the restrictions on thought and behaviour.
                > >
                > > Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
                > > rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
                > > most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
                > > only natural that there should be open
                > > discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
                > > Only a religious leader can proclaim that
                > > Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
                > > in the next. But, not all religions have a
                > > God-like leader with the ultimate power
                > > and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
                > > and demote members without a trial or
                > > an open discussion or giving just cause
                > > via a two-way answering of questions.
                > >
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > jonathanjohns wrote:
                > >
                > > Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
                > > message board and on the "other" board.
                > > Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
                > > or nostalgia. It's really
                > > not a serious topic.
                > >
                > > I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
                > > Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
                > > out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
                > > I got one of those blue letters in the
                > > blue envelope directly from Darwin/
                > > Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
                > > chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
                > > Klemp became the LEM. But what was
                > > written in this letter rather surprised
                > > me. Darwin stated that chelas should
                > > not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
                > > The implication or direct statement
                > > was that this was too casual. There
                > > may have been a statement about how
                > > Eckankar needed to project a better
                > > image.
                > >
                > > I believe he made additional statements
                > > about other articles of clothing, but
                > > I especially noticed the word "Levis"
                > > because this is actually a trademarked
                > > name of a company, not a type of clothing.
                > > I am assuming that what he raelly meant
                > > was "blue jeans," but he might have also
                > > been including other styles of pants
                > > which were just as casual.
                > >
                > > This letter bothered me, and not just
                > > because I hate to dress up, and I also
                > > hate it when people tell me I have to
                > > dress up. The other reason that it
                > > bothered me was that a month or two
                > > before I received this letter from Darwin,
                > > I had listened to an audio tape where
                > > he emphatically stated "There are no
                > > rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
                > > I'm reading this letter and thinking to
                > > myself "Wait a minute! What did you
                > > just say in your tape!?"
                > >
                > > I realize that this isn't the most important
                > > topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
                > > expand on it a bit. The really humerous
                > > thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
                > > up when he gave talks although I didn't
                > > even think about that when I read that letter
                > > (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
                > > could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
                > > Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
                > > a dress shirt, but the top button was
                > > unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
                > > a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
                > > To Know" where he is apparently signing
                > > autographs for chelas and he is dressed
                > > like this. I would assume that this took
                > > place at a major seminar.
                > >
                > > But as I was driving my car this morning,
                > > something occurred to me. Klemp always
                > > wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.
                > >
                > > I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
                > >
                > > Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
                > > the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
                > > tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
                > > Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
                > > "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
                > > it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
                > > make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
                > > you hang out around the members of
                > > Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
                > > obsessed with how the public percieves
                > > Eckankar.
                > >
                > > AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
                > > Paul to share. There was a talk that
                > > Paul gave to an American audience where
                > > he was telling them about his expereince
                > > in giving talks in Europe. He said that
                > > he would start out the talk all dressed
                > > up, but as the talk went on he would take
                > > his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
                > > floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
                > > loosened his tie up, which meant that
                > > he actually was wearing one. Put it was
                > > funny when Paul commented on the
                > > reaction of the Europen audiences:
                > >
                > > "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
                > > down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
                > > and also as a story pointing out the difference
                > > between Americans being more casual
                > > than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
                > > wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
                > > progressed, his desire for personal comfort
                > > apparently won out over his desire to present
                > > the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
                > > anyway so I think that he really didn't care
                > > very much waht people thought.
                > >
                > > But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
                > > that he sent out a lot of letters directly
                > > to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
                > > he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
                > > that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
                > > point where I pretty much ignored all of them.
                > >
                > > Two questions:
                > > 1. Does anybody but me remember that
                > > letter that Darwin sent out?
                > >
                > > 2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
                > > giving talks?
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Ingrid and All, Once, I was still wearing some cargo shorts after dark early one evening and my friends tried to get us into a German club that was
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 30, 2009
                  Hello Ingrid and All,
                  Once, I was still wearing some
                  cargo shorts after dark early
                  one evening and my friends
                  tried to get us into a German
                  club that was having dinner
                  and dancing and I was not
                  permitted in because the
                  management said "Lederhosen"
                  was not permitted. I thought
                  it was strange, but as I said
                  there are many old traditional/
                  conservative beliefs concerning
                  "proper" dress. No one wants
                  to go against the flow or to
                  change the way things are done.
                  Instead, people want others
                  to conform to their old beliefs.

                  This same conformity of thought
                  and tradition goes well with religious
                  beliefs, and, thus, the purpose
                  of the ECK Worship Service (EWS),
                  and the other EK traditions i.e.
                  "Spiritual Years" (themes) that
                  Klemp has established during
                  his rule.

                  As for blue jeans... I wonder
                  what the Klempster would think
                  of my Ed Hardy jeans?

                  Never mind. I already know!

                  Prometheus

                  ctecvie wrote:

                  Hi Prometheus and all,

                  thanks for all the informative posts about dress codes and such! Well, a blue
                  jeans can look very elegant to, if worn with a nice jacket I think - and of
                  course if there are no holes in it! :-)

                  Just to correct one little thing about the Lederhosen: Lederhosen means leather
                  trousers (pants) and is a national folklore clothing in the Southern parts of
                  Germany (not at all in the north! LOL!) and all over Austria. However, it's not
                  at all the same than shorts - there are short and long Lederhosen. You can wear
                  shorts in the hot season of course, but as you said correctly Prometheus, one
                  would not wear shorts during an event, especially if one has to give or conduct
                  talks!

                  Ingrid

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Jonathan and All,
                  > The more I think about it I do remember
                  > a remark about a dress code and no Levis.
                  > Today, the blue jeans thing mostly affects
                  > male volunteers at major seminars (when
                  > seminar leaders assign duties), or locally
                  > when doing an intro, or the EWS as the
                  > conducting cleric. Jeans are still okay for
                  > many EK events, unless, you're conducting
                  > the event.
                  >
                  > Also, I used to dress in suit and tie when
                  > I worked at the major EK seminars. One
                  > needed a jacket to "hide" all of the
                  > electronic surveillance/communications
                  > equipment (walkie-talkies, etc.) and battery
                  > packs. BTW, Germans and Europeans, in
                  > general, still have more dress codes than
                  > Americans. Black and white are traditional
                  > colors in Germany and Lederhosen (shorts)
                  > are not worn much (except during festivals)
                  > even during hot weather. Dress is very
                  > conservative and people tend to follow
                  > the crowd, and conform. For some reason
                  > they don't want to stand out as being
                  > individualistic. Then, again, it does seem
                  > that they are more regulated and responsible
                  > than we are and that might be a good
                  > thing for some things.
                  >
                  > In regard to Darwin's music I didn't get
                  > into jazz either. However, I think that
                  > Darwin's opinion/prediction about the
                  > Big Band music catching on was true.
                  > Look at the youth (since 1981) who have/
                  > had gotten involved with Swing dancing.
                  > Jim Carey was in the movie Mask and it
                  > had Big Band music and there was the
                  > movie Swingers. Many other things
                  > indicated a revival of this music. I
                  > walked into a bar/restaurant about
                  > ten or so years ago where young college
                  > age people were doing Swing dancing
                  > to Big Band music and it was really
                  > fun to watch. I can't remember if Big
                  > Band music was ever played at the
                  > "social" dance at one of HK's major
                  > EK seminars... maybe it has been!
                  >
                  > BTW- Did they ever have a Native-
                  > American "drumming" session at
                  > a major ECK seminar? A group of
                  > us (once) got an empty room and
                  > were supposed to have had one
                  > because I was going to bring over
                  > one of my Celtic drums. But, I seem
                  > to remember that it got cancelled
                  > because a higher-up at the ESC
                  > got wind of it and thought it was
                  > inappropriate.
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  > jonathanjohns wrote:
                  >
                  > Prometheus,
                  >
                  > Thanks for the reply. You have a lot better memory for these things than I do.
                  >
                  > I appreciated your comments about Darwin's attire. Since I joined around 1979,
                  > and Darwin was gone about four years later, I don't remember a whole lot about
                  > him. I found your comment that Darwin dressed in a tux when playing music
                  > onstage to be very interesting. It proves to me that Darwin did put effort
                  into
                  > dressing appropriately for the occasion. I have never paid much attention to
                  how
                  > people dress.
                  >
                  > That letter that Darwin sent out must have really bothered me at the time. The
                  > hypocrisy/contradiction with what Darwin had said earlier. But it is just one
                  of
                  > many examples. I absolutely remember the letter because I had been listening
                  to
                  > a guy on the radio named Bruce Williams who gives economic/business advice to
                  > people. He had recently explained how a lot of people in everyday conversation
                  > use a trademarked brand name such as "Kleenex" for an everyday item (facial
                  > tissue), and usually don't even realize what they are doing. Another example
                  he
                  > gave was "Laundromat" which is a trademarked term of the Laundromat Corp., but
                  > people use it as an everyday term for a coin laundry. So when Darwin said
                  > "Levis" in the letter it really caught my attention, simply for this reason.
                  So
                  > I definitely didn't imagine the letter because I was saying to myself "Darwin
                  is
                  > doing the same thing that Bruce Williams warned about, using a trademarked
                  name
                  > (Levis) for an everyday item (blue jeans)." So the letter was real. Also, I
                  > doubt that anyone at the seminars actually enforced Darwin's decree.
                  >
                  > I never had a problem with Darwin's music although I have very little interest
                  > in Jazz. I thought it was OK. It even sounded spiritual to me. But Darwin
                  never
                  > managed to get me to appreciate Jazz! lol
                  >
                  > It seems almost funny in retrospect how we let these people (LEMs) run our
                  > lives. When Darwin was the LEM, I understand that they always had big band
                  music
                  > and dancing at Eckankar's big events. In deference to Darwin of course. And I
                  > even remember Darwin once commenting that Big Band music was going to make a
                  big
                  > comeback. In retrospect, that prediction seems like one of Darwin's personal
                  > fantasies rather than something that was actually going to come true. But at
                  the
                  > time I'm sure that all of we loyal Eckists probably took him seriously, even
                  > believing him outright.
                  >
                  > One last comment. About two years ago I was parked near a church on Sunday
                  > morning. I saw some people walking down the street. It seemed that they must
                  be
                  > going to church, but they were dressed so casually! I couldn't believe it! By
                  > the way, I did verify that they were indeed going to the Catholic Church just
                  > down the street. This shocked me because I hadn't been to a Christian church )
                  I
                  > was Protestant) since about 1976 (2007-1976=31 years). So in 31 years the
                  attire
                  > for people going to church completely changed from what I HAD to wear (a dress
                  > suit and tie, plus polished leather shoes) to casual, although I would still
                  be
                  > surprised to see someone wearing blue jeans.
                  >
                  > For those of you who are outsiders to Eckankar, I would say that both the
                  > seminars and the meetings at Eck centers it definitely trends toward casual.
                  It
                  > does vary from Eck center to Eck center though. In my last ten years in
                  Eckankar
                  > 1999-2008, I attended worship services at two different Eck centers. At one,
                  > things were 100% casual. At the other one, it was mostly casual, but a few
                  > people did come "dressed from church." I especially remember an African family
                  > that always dressed up. But I can remember some of the top honchos at the
                  center
                  > dressing completely casually so it wasn't as if they were attempting to set an
                  > example for everyone to "dress up."
                  >
                  > I really feel that there has been an overwhelming trend in the last 30 years
                  > toward more casual. But there are other countries that still insist on
                  dressing
                  > up. A caller to a talk show in the 1970s or 1980s, a man from Germany, said
                  that
                  > he liked something in the United States better than Germany. He said that
                  people
                  > in Germany wear a suit and tie when they go out to the movies. I don't
                  remember
                  > that happening in the United States, even in the 1960s.
                  >
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All,
                  > > No, I don't remember that letter about
                  > > Not wearing Levis. I know that Darwin
                  > > wore them at the Broken Bow campouts
                  > > and other places like Sedona. He'd usually
                  > > wear darker blue jeans with a light blue
                  > > or white shirt. Usually he dressed (resort)
                  > > casual with an open collar blue dress shirt
                  > > and khaki slacks when walking to and from
                  > > seminar meetings, and this is how he
                  > > often dressed at the ESC at Menlo Park.
                  > > Of course he'd have a sport coat or jacket
                  > > with him for outside or for a more formal
                  > > look. DG was a dapper dude and dressed
                  > > for the ladies (LLDG). Thus, the tux when
                  > > he'd perform on stage with Rodney Jones
                  > > and the gang.
                  > >
                  > > Maybe you could go on Facebook
                  > > and ask to be a friend of Rodney's and
                  > > then ask him some things about Darwin.
                  > > Who knows... he might be willing to share
                  > > some history. Then again, he might be
                  > > afraid to share things if it got back to
                  > > HK that he was talking about Darwin.
                  > >
                  > > It is funny to see those Passing of the
                  > > Rod pictures of PT, DG, and HK all wearing
                  > > light blue dress shirts with collars open!
                  > >
                  > > Yes, I remember that I was told that there
                  > > were No Rules in Eckankar. Of course, there
                  > > were plenty of "LAWS," as well as, the Four Zoas!
                  > > By definition these "Zoas" don't apply to anyone
                  > > except a new Madis (5th), although, ALL are
                  > > expected to follow these rules. Then, Klemp
                  > > added his "Guidelines" and the RESA Police
                  > > to enforce the Rules, Zoas, and Guidelines.
                  > > Eventually HK had to write two leadership
                  > > books ("high" and "low") to explain all of
                  > > the restrictions on thought and behaviour.
                  > >
                  > > Actually, there are even more "unspoken"
                  > > rules and restrictions in Eckankar than
                  > > most H.I.s would be willing to admit. It's
                  > > only natural that there should be open
                  > > discussions on policy etc. without repercussions.
                  > > Only a religious leader can proclaim that
                  > > Soul=Soul in one breath and take it back
                  > > in the next. But, not all religions have a
                  > > God-like leader with the ultimate power
                  > > and authority (Klemp) to excommunicate
                  > > and demote members without a trial or
                  > > an open discussion or giving just cause
                  > > via a two-way answering of questions.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > jonathanjohns wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Months ago I made a lot of posts on this
                  > > message board and on the "other" board.
                  > > Today, I thought I would dig up some trivia
                  > > or nostalgia. It's really
                  > > not a serious topic.
                  > >
                  > > I joined Eckankar around 1979 when
                  > > Darwin was still the LEM. One day,
                  > > out of nowhere, probably around 1980,
                  > > I got one of those blue letters in the
                  > > blue envelope directly from Darwin/
                  > > Eckankar. It was sent out to all of the
                  > > chelas, and I believe it was before Harold
                  > > Klemp became the LEM. But what was
                  > > written in this letter rather surprised
                  > > me. Darwin stated that chelas should
                  > > not wear "Levis" to the Eck seminars.
                  > > The implication or direct statement
                  > > was that this was too casual. There
                  > > may have been a statement about how
                  > > Eckankar needed to project a better
                  > > image.
                  > >
                  > > I believe he made additional statements
                  > > about other articles of clothing, but
                  > > I especially noticed the word "Levis"
                  > > because this is actually a trademarked
                  > > name of a company, not a type of clothing.
                  > > I am assuming that what he raelly meant
                  > > was "blue jeans," but he might have also
                  > > been including other styles of pants
                  > > which were just as casual.
                  > >
                  > > This letter bothered me, and not just
                  > > because I hate to dress up, and I also
                  > > hate it when people tell me I have to
                  > > dress up. The other reason that it
                  > > bothered me was that a month or two
                  > > before I received this letter from Darwin,
                  > > I had listened to an audio tape where
                  > > he emphatically stated "There are no
                  > > rules and regulations in Eckankar." So
                  > > I'm reading this letter and thinking to
                  > > myself "Wait a minute! What did you
                  > > just say in your tape!?"
                  > >
                  > > I realize that this isn't the most important
                  > > topic about Eckankar, but I would like to
                  > > expand on it a bit. The really humerous
                  > > thing is that Darwin didn't exactly dress
                  > > up when he gave talks although I didn't
                  > > even think about that when I read that letter
                  > > (circa 1980) because I thought the LEM
                  > > could do no wrong. I believe that for talks,
                  > > Darwin wore a buttoned shirt, perhaps
                  > > a dress shirt, but the top button was
                  > > unbuttoned, and with no tie. There is
                  > > a photo in Darwin's book "Your Right
                  > > To Know" where he is apparently signing
                  > > autographs for chelas and he is dressed
                  > > like this. I would assume that this took
                  > > place at a major seminar.
                  > >
                  > > But as I was driving my car this morning,
                  > > something occurred to me. Klemp always
                  > > wears a suit and tie when he gives his talks.
                  > >
                  > > I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.
                  > >
                  > > Did Eckankar really transition from "Darwing
                  > > the casual dresser" to "Klemp the suit and
                  > > tie man?" If it did, I think that it reflects
                  > > Klemps' obsession with making Eckankar
                  > > "presentable" to the public. I don't think that
                  > > it necessarily has to do with Klemp trying to
                  > > make Eckankar look like Christianity. But if
                  > > you hang out around the members of
                  > > Eckankar it seems that a lot of them are
                  > > obsessed with how the public percieves
                  > > Eckankar.
                  > >
                  > > AS a sidelight, I have one memory about
                  > > Paul to share. There was a talk that
                  > > Paul gave to an American audience where
                  > > he was telling them about his expereince
                  > > in giving talks in Europe. He said that
                  > > he would start out the talk all dressed
                  > > up, but as the talk went on he would take
                  > > his shoes off, sit cross-legged on the
                  > > floor, etc. I believe he also said that he
                  > > loosened his tie up, which meant that
                  > > he actually was wearing one. Put it was
                  > > funny when Paul commented on the
                  > > reaction of the Europen audiences:
                  > >
                  > > "I noticed all these eyebrows going up and
                  > > down." Paul meant it as a humerous story,
                  > > and also as a story pointing out the difference
                  > > between Americans being more casual
                  > > than Europeans. So although Paul apparently
                  > > wore a suit and tie for talks, as the talk
                  > > progressed, his desire for personal comfort
                  > > apparently won out over his desire to present
                  > > the "proper" image. Paul was a nonconformist
                  > > anyway so I think that he really didn't care
                  > > very much waht people thought.
                  > >
                  > > But getting back to Darwin. It seemed
                  > > that he sent out a lot of letters directly
                  > > to the chela. I have to give credit to Klemp,
                  > > he didn't seem to do that. Or maybe after
                  > > that Darwin letter, I had just reached the
                  > > point where I pretty much ignored all of them.
                  > >
                  > > Two questions:
                  > > 1. Does anybody but me remember that
                  > > letter that Darwin sent out?
                  > >
                  > > 2. Did Darwin really dress casually when
                  > > giving talks?
                • al_radzik
                  Eckankah-kah. Did Darwin write: Origin Of The Feces ?
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 5, 2009
                    Eckankah-kah. Did Darwin write: "Origin Of The Feces"?
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