Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO

Expand Messages
  • Rebazar Tarzs
    Hi Etznab!   Darwin, as the Mahanta , implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I guess, initiated by Rebazar Tarzs - announced in the Mystic World in
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 14, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Etznab!
       
      Darwin, as the "Mahanta", implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I guess, "initiated" by "Rebazar Tarzs" - announced in the Mystic World in '74 or '75.  I think '74.
       
      (Not the Rebazar Tarzs stuff. It was like Darwin was suddenly the Mahanta, a word which really means big or the head of a monastary, or maybe a big head.)  
       
      I don't think that Darwin knew anything at all about Paul's plagiarism and paraphrasing, but he had no problem going along for the ride.  If he had known about all of that stuff, I don't  think that he would have given sentences or paragraphs from out of Paul's books to be put in the ECK Mata Journal as though they were his own fresh quotes, in the late seventies.
       
      Ironically - Instant Karma! -  that is around the time that he started to find out everything, everything that you and I have found out thanks to interesting discoveries in bookstores and the internet.
       
      Most "ECKists" did not know about the research of David Lane until the world wide web.
      I didn't have a home computer until the end of the year 2000.  But during the nineties, while I was  doing my own research on "HU" and "ECK" or "EK" and the so-called lineage of "ECK"  Masters, I found some of the books that Paul had plagiarized from, but, stupidly, felt I had to keep it a secret from everybody, including  my wife.
       
      This is one way in which a cult works.  Could it be a test?  A test of loyalty?  A test of the Law of Silence?  Something like this could shatter the lives of thousands!  Or rather, the delusion of thousands. 
       
      Then I found David Lane on the internet, and websites and stuff of interest from former ECKists - all fascinating, but especially an interview with Dr. Luis Bluth, who said he helped Paul with the copying from other books because he had those books, most notably, of course, written by Julian Johnson.
       
      Then came the website and the book by Ford Johnson.
       
      Then I still kept finding more and more stuff.
       
      I went through the five stages of grieving.  Prometheus is absolutely right about Harold.
       
      He wanted to be a Lutheran minister, but saw the chance to turn "ECKANKAR" (I shed a tear for Guru Nanak everytime I use that word) into his very own completely controlled, financially abundant Lutheran ministry.
       
      At least, the music and the writings were so much more uplifting in the days of Paul and Darwin that there is no comparison.  The old newspaper, The ECK World News, had some intelligent writers. I suspect the best of the writers and the best of the musician/composers are probably gone now. 
       
      I recently noticed that the main site has done away with its art section.
       
      What does that tell you?
       
      Harold is in no hurry to give out initiations, especially if you are under fifty or sixty. Why? Because when you get one, then you are in a hurry to get the next one. He won't give out any past the Eighth, so what will you do when you get your Eighth?
       
      I would be afraid to find out how many Eighth initiates spend their time looking for that outer confirmation of the Ninth, or think they already have it. 
       
      It seems like all of this has more to do with vanity than spirituality.
       
      I recieved the "Seventh" in 2000, and then I bought a home computer!
       
      It is true - the truth shall set you free!
       
      The first three books I found regarding "ECKANKAR" in 1969 didn't mention initiations at all, except perhaps in a general way insofar as ancient mystery schools and stuff like that.
       
      "In My Soul I Am Free" mentions that Paul didn't even want interested people to call themselves "chelas" because he wanted them to identify themselves not as followers, but as potential masters, or at least as spiritual beings who already have everything they need as Soul, a divine spark of God.
       
      I get this feeling that the change in everything began in the mid to late sixties and had to  do with Gail and money and who knows what else?
       
      I think  it is very interesting how some of the individuals on this site refer to "chelas" as co-dependents of Harold.
       
      I have witnessed this kind of silliness since 1973.  I don't know what Darwin thought about it, but Harold sure seems to not only lust for it, but demand it.
       
      BTW:  If you happen to suddenly get filthy rich and generous toward Corporate Eckankar, that may speed up your next initiation.  
       
      I left a church, and religion in general, to join "ECKANKAR" - isn't that funny?
       
      Like Rebazar Tarzs, I mean, Julian Johnson, said, "It may be good to be born in a church, but not to die in one."
       
      Stop dying -  give yourself  a  break!
       
      Realbizarre Tarzs
       
      P.S.  Everything below the Soul Plane is psychological - and what games people play!
       
      You are Soul whether or not you have this or that.  How will you bring your membership ID card after you leave the body? You know you are going to need it the most then!
       
      Or, if you become an atheist, not that there is anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld might say, then hey, stop the nonsense and live it up!       
       
       
       
        
       
       
       
          
       
       
       
         
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
             
       
                  
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       


      --- On Mon, 9/14/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

      From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
      Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
      To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:18 AM

       
      What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
      or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
      I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
      it could reflect negatively on your initiations
      (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
      that is, or that it should be, the case.

      Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
      book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
      didn't think that what I wanted to write about
      was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
      cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
      still do have a number of questions. Besides,
      I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
      Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
      some of the things in Ford's book and some
      of the other information come out.

      I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
      considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
      time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
      like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
      (not very much at the latter though, for quite
      some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
      questions there. They were not always the
      most welcome by all readers, though. Even
      clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
      an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
      "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
      IRO's, or no IROs.

      I don't know if this has anything to do with
      the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
      nearly ten years. My understanding is that
      Harold has "slowed down" the time between
      initiations gen
      erally, but I don't know what
      that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
      that the longest period of time between the
      3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
      seven years. That was the time between my
      3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
      4th and 5th. I don't know.

      Back in Paul's day a person could go from
      1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
      on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
      less time than that (if it's true what they say
      about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
      person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
      Darwin a 13th, 14th?

      Etznab

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
      To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
      Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO

       

      Hello Whitemoby and All.

      Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,

      at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and

      Scientologists.

      So, you might be okay on those old

      IROs. They do read, track and file info

      from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's

      "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,

      unless printed or used, do get destroyed.

      Also, most IROs sound pretty much the

      the same as others. Everyone dreams

      and has "experiences, " and spills their

      guts... at first. And, almost everyone

      pretty much bitches about other Eckists

      and their bad behaviours.

      I knew Eckists that
      embellished their

      IROs in order to get promoted and/or

      asked to speak at major seminars, and

      to have their dreams/ekperiences printed

      or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.

      It was a similar self-promotion as to

      what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below

      or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never

      ending cycle to get noticed!

      Prometheus

      whitemoby wrote:

      I turned in my eck membership about

      8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was

      very faithful to those initiate reports.

      Each month I wrote up my little letter,

      I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,

      and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And

      I sincerely believed that the Mahanta

      knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't

      have to actually mail it for the Mahanta

      to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).

      Now here is my worry and question.

      Please someone respond. ---

      I absolutely poured out my blood,

      sweat, and tears in those letters.

      I discussed all manner of private,

      personal, embarrassing matter.

      I bitched about my fellow eckists

      often.

      Now I worry that those letters are

      on file somewhere. I know it's silly,

      but I just hate the thought of it.

      I was hoping that maybe someone

      from eck headquarters just burned

      or trashed all those thousands of

      IROs they got each month.
      =0
      D

      Does anyone know??


    • whitemoby22
      Hey Rebazar, I think your post just made my day. Big ole smile. - You mention In My Soul I Am Free , which I never read until recently. In it, Paul says he
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 14, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hey Rebazar, I think your post just made my day. Big ole smile. - You mention "In My Soul I Am Free", which I never read until recently. In it, Paul says he titled "The Far Country" after a story written by Rudyard Kipling. But Kipling never wrote any kind of anything with that title. Why would PT even bother to lie about this?

        You know, Rebazar, Eckankar, like anything else, has its share of fools. But there are intelligent, thoughtful, sensible people there, as well. You know that. And it is utterly beyond me that some of these continue with the Eckankar parade. I cannot, quite literally, get my mind around it.

        moby



        In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Etznab!
        >  
        > Darwin, as the "Mahanta", implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I guess, "initiated" by "Rebazar Tarzs" - announced in the Mystic World in '74 or '75.  I think '74.
        >  
        > (Not the Rebazar Tarzs stuff. It was like Darwin was suddenly the Mahanta, a word which really means big or the head of a monastary, or maybe a big head.)  
        >  
        > I don't think that Darwin knew anything at all about Paul's plagiarism and paraphrasing, but he had no problem going along for the ride.  If he had known about all of that stuff, I don't  think that he would have given sentences or paragraphs from out of Paul's books to be put in the ECK Mata Journal as though they were his own fresh quotes, in the late seventies.
        >  
        > Ironically - Instant Karma! -  that is around the time that he started to find out everything, everything that you and I have found out thanks to interesting discoveries in bookstores and the internet.
        >  
        > Most "ECKists" did not know about the research of David Lane until the world wide web.
        > I didn't have a home computer until the end of the year 2000.  But during the nineties, while I was  doing my own research on "HU" and "ECK" or "EK" and the so-called lineage of "ECK"  Masters, I found some of the books that Paul had plagiarized from, but, stupidly, felt I had to keep it a secret from everybody, including  my wife.
        >  
        > This is one way in which a cult works.  Could it be a test?  A test of loyalty?  A test of the Law of Silence?  Something like this could shatter the lives of thousands!  Or rather, the delusion of thousands. 
        >  
        > Then I found David Lane on the internet, and websites and stuff of interest from former ECKists - all fascinating, but especially an interview with Dr. Luis Bluth, who said he helped Paul with the copying from other books because he had those books, most notably, of course, written by Julian Johnson.
        >  
        > Then came the website and the book by Ford Johnson.
        >  
        > Then I still kept finding more and more stuff.
        >  
        > I went through the five stages of grieving.  Prometheus is absolutely right about Harold.
        >  
        > He wanted to be a Lutheran minister, but saw the chance to turn "ECKANKAR" (I shed a tear for Guru Nanak everytime I use that word) into his very own completely controlled, financially abundant Lutheran ministry.
        >  
        > At least, the music and the writings were so much more uplifting in the days of Paul and Darwin that there is no comparison.  The old newspaper, The ECK World News, had some intelligent writers. I suspect the best of the writers and the best of the musician/composers are probably gone now. 
        >  
        > I recently noticed that the main site has done away with its art section.
        >  
        > What does that tell you?
        >  
        > Harold is in no hurry to give out initiations, especially if you are under fifty or sixty. Why? Because when you get one, then you are in a hurry to get the next one. He won't give out any past the Eighth, so what will you do when you get your Eighth?
        >  
        > I would be afraid to find out how many Eighth initiates spend their time looking for that outer confirmation of the Ninth, or think they already have it. 
        >  
        > It seems like all of this has more to do with vanity than spirituality.
        >  
        > I recieved the "Seventh" in 2000, and then I bought a home computer!
        >  
        > It is true - the truth shall set you free!
        >  
        > The first three books I found regarding "ECKANKAR" in 1969 didn't mention initiations at all, except perhaps in a general way insofar as ancient mystery schools and stuff like that.
        >  
        > "In My Soul I Am Free" mentions that Paul didn't even want interested people to call themselves "chelas" because he wanted them to identify themselves not as followers, but as potential masters, or at least as spiritual beings who already have everything they need as Soul, a divine spark of God.
        >  
        > I get this feeling that the change in everything began in the mid to late sixties and had to  do with Gail and money and who knows what else?
        >  
        > I think  it is very interesting how some of the individuals on this site refer to "chelas" as co-dependents of Harold.
        >  
        > I have witnessed this kind of silliness since 1973.  I don't know what Darwin thought about it, but Harold sure seems to not only lust for it, but demand it.
        >  
        > BTW:  If you happen to suddenly get filthy rich and generous toward Corporate Eckankar, that may speed up your next initiation.  
        >  
        > I left a church, and religion in general, to join "ECKANKAR" - isn't that funny?
        >  
        > Like Rebazar Tarzs, I mean, Julian Johnson, said, "It may be good to be born in a church, but not to die in one."
        >  
        > Stop dying -  give yourself  a  break!
        >  
        > Realbizarre Tarzs
        >  
        > P.S.  Everything below the Soul Plane is psychological - and what games people play!
        >  
        > You are Soul whether or not you have this or that.  How will you bring your membership ID card after you leave the body? You know you are going to need it the most then!
        >  
        > Or, if you become an atheist, not that there is anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld might say, then hey, stop the nonsense and live it up!       
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >   
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >     
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >    
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >        
        >  
        >             
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >
        >
        > --- On Mon, 9/14/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
        > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
        > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:18 AM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
        > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
        > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
        > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
        > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
        > that is, or that it should be, the case.
        >
        > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
        > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
        > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
        > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
        > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
        > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
        > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
        > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
        > some of the things in Ford's book and some
        > of the other information come out.
        >
        > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
        > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
        > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
        > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
        > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
        > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
        > questions there. They were not always the
        > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
        > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
        > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
        > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
        > IRO's, or no IROs.
        >
        > I don't know if this has anything to do with
        > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
        > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
        > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
        > initiations gen
        > erally, but I don't know what
        > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
        > that the longest period of time between the
        > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
        > seven years. That was the time between my
        > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
        > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
        >
        > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
        > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
        > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
        > less time than that (if it's true what they say
        > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
        > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
        > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
        >
        > Etznab
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
        > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
        > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
        >
        >  
        >
        > Hello Whitemoby and All.
        >
        > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
        >
        > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
        >
        > Scientologists.
        >
        > So, you might be okay on those old
        >
        > IROs. They do read, track and file info
        >
        > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
        >
        > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
        >
        > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
        >
        > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
        >
        > the same as others. Everyone dreams
        >
        > and has "experiences, " and spills their
        >
        > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
        >
        > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
        >
        > and their bad behaviours.
        >
        > I knew Eckists that
        > embellished their
        >
        > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
        >
        > asked to speak at major seminars, and
        >
        > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
        >
        > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
        >
        > It was a similar self-promotion as to
        >
        > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
        >
        > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
        >
        > ending cycle to get noticed!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > whitemoby wrote:
        >
        > I turned in my eck membership about
        >
        > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
        >
        > very faithful to those initiate reports.
        >
        > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
        >
        > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
        >
        > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
        >
        > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
        >
        > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
        >
        > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
        >
        > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
        >
        > Now here is my worry and question.
        >
        > Please someone respond. ---
        >
        > I absolutely poured out my blood,
        >
        > sweat, and tears in those letters.
        >
        > I discussed all manner of private,
        >
        > personal, embarrassing matter.
        >
        > I bitched about my fellow eckists
        >
        > often.
        >
        > Now I worry that those letters are
        >
        > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
        >
        > but I just hate the thought of it.
        >
        > I was hoping that maybe someone
        >
        > from eck headquarters just burned
        >
        > or trashed all those thousands of
        >
        > IROs they got each month.
        > =0
        > D
        >
        > Does anyone know??
        >
      • etznab@aol.com
        Thanks for that reply Rebazar. I m grateful. Etznab ... From: Rebazar Tarzs To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Sep 14,
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 14, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks for that reply Rebazar. I'm grateful.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...>
          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:58 am
          Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO

           






          Hi Etznab!
           
          Darwin, as the "Mahanta", implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I
          guess, "initiated" by "Rebazar Tarzs" - announced in the Mystic World
          in '74 or '75.  I think '74.
           
          (Not the Rebazar Tarzs stuff. It was like Darwin was suddenly the
          Mahanta, a word which really means big or the head of a monastary,
          or maybe a big head.)  
           
          I don't think that Darwin knew anything at all about Paul's plagiarism
          and paraphrasing, but he had no problem going along for the ride.  If
          he had known about all of that stuff, I don't  think that he would have
          given sentences or paragraphs from out of Paul's books to be put in the
          ECK Mata Journal as though they were his own fresh quotes, in the late
          seventies.
           
          Ironically - Instant Karma! -  that is around the time that he started
          to find out everything, everything that you and I have found out thanks
          to interesting discoveries in bookstores and the internet.
           
          Most "ECKists" did not know about the research of David Lane until the
          world wide web.
          I didn't have a home computer until the end of the year 2000. 
          But
          during the nineties, while I was  doing my own research on "HU" and
          "ECK" or "EK" and the so-called lineage of "ECK"  Masters, I found some
          of the books that Paul had plagiarized from, but, stupidly, felt I had
          to keep it a secret from everybody, including  my wife.
           
          This is one way in which a cult works.  Could it be a test?  A test of
          loyalty?  A test of the Law of Silence?  Something like this could
          shatter the lives of thousands!  Or rather, the delusion of thousands. 
           
          Then I found David Lane on the internet, and websites and stuff of
          interest from former ECKists - all fascinating, but especially an
          interview with Dr. Luis Bluth, who said he helped Paul with the copying
          from other books because he had those books, most notably, of course,
          written by Julian Johnson.
           
          Then came the website and the book by Ford Johnson.
           
          Then I still kept finding more and more stuff.
           
          I went through the five stages of grieving.  Prometheus is
          absolutely right about Harold.
           
          He wanted to be a Lutheran minister, but saw the chance to turn
          "ECKANKAR" (I shed a tear for Guru Nanak everytime I use that word)
          into his very own completely controlled, financially abundant Lutheran
          ministry.
           
          At least, the music and the writings were so much more uplifting in the
          days of Paul and Darwin that there i
          s no comparison.  The old
          newspaper, The ECK World News, had some intelligent writers. I suspect
          the best of the writers and the best of the musician/composers are
          probably gone now. 
           
          I recently noticed that the main site has done away with its art
          section.
           
          What does that tell you?
           
          Harold is in no hurry to give out initiations, especially if you are
          under fifty or sixty. Why? Because when you get one, then you are in a
          hurry to get the next one. He won't give out any past the Eighth,
          so what will you do when you get your Eighth?
           
          I would be afraid to find out how many Eighth initiates spend their
          time looking for that outer confirmation of the Ninth, or think they
          already have it. 
           
          It seems like all of this has more to do with vanity than spirituality.
           
          I recieved the "Seventh" in 2000, and then I bought a home computer!
           
          It is true - the truth shall set you free!
           
          The first three books I found regarding "ECKANKAR" in 1969 didn't
          mention initiations at all, except perhaps in a general way insofar as
          ancient mystery schools and stuff like that.
           
          "In My Soul I Am Free" mentions that Paul didn't even want interested
          people to call themselves "chelas" because he wanted them to identify
          themselves not as followers, but as potential masters, or at least as
          spiritual beings who already=2
          0have everything they need as Soul, a
          divine spark of God.
           
          I get this feeling that the change in everything began in the mid to
          late sixties and had to  do with Gail and money and who knows what else?
           
          I think  it is very interesting how some of the individuals on this
          site refer to "chelas" as co-dependents of Harold.
           
          I have witnessed this kind of silliness since 1973.  I don't know what
          Darwin thought about it, but Harold sure seems to not only lust for it,
          but demand it.
           
          BTW:  If you happen to suddenly get filthy rich and generous toward
          Corporate Eckankar, that may speed up your next initiation.  
           
          I left a church, and religion in general, to join "ECKANKAR" - isn't
          that funny?
           
          Like Rebazar Tarzs, I mean, Julian Johnson, said, "It may be good to be
          born in a church, but not to die in one."
           
          Stop dying -  give yourself  a  break!
           
          Realbizarre Tarzs
           
          P.S.  Everything below the Soul Plane is psychological - and what games
          people play!
           
          You are Soul whether or not you have this or that.  How will you bring
          your membership ID card after you leave the body? You know you are
          going to need it the most then!
           
          Or, if you become an atheist, not that there is anything wrong with
          that, as Jerry Seinfeld might say, then hey, stop the nonsense and l
          ive
          it up!       
           
           
           
            
           
           
           
              
           
           
           
             
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
                 
           
                      
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           


          --- On Mon, 9/14/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


          From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
          Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:18 AM


           

          What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
          or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
          I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
          it could reflect negatively on your initiations
          (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
          that is, or that it should be, the case.

          Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
          book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
          didn't think that what I wanted to write about
          was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
          cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
          still do have a number of questions. Besides,
          I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
          Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
          some of the things in Ford's book and some
          of the other information come out.

          I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
          considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the
          same
          time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
          like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
          (not
          very much at the latter though, for quite
          some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
          questions there. They were not always the
          most welcome by all readers, though. Even
          clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
          an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
          "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
          IRO's, or no IROs.

          I don't know if this has anything to do with
          the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
          nearly ten years. My understanding is that
          Harold has "slowed down" the time between
          initiations gen
          erally, but I don't know what
          that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
          that the longest period of time between the
          3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
          seven years. That was the time between my
          3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
          4th and 5th. I don't know.

          Back in Paul's day a person could go from
          1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
          on the person, you
          could go from 1 to 12 in
          less time than that (if it's true what they say
          about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
          person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
          Darwin a 13th, 14th?

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
          To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
          Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO

           

          Hello Whitemoby and All.
          =0
          A
          Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,

          at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and

          Scientologists.

          So, you might be okay on those old

          IROs. They do read, track
          and file info

          from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's

          "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,

          unless printed or used, do get destroyed.

          Also, most IROs sound pretty much the

          the same as others. Everyone dreams

          and has "experiences, " and spills their

          guts... at first. And, almost everyone

          pretty much bitches about other Eckists

          and their bad behaviours.

          I knew Eckists that
          embellished their

          IROs in order to get promoted and/or

          asked to speak at major seminars, and

          to have their dreams/ekperiences printed

          or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.

          It was a similar self-promotion as to

          what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below

          or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never

          ending cycle to get noticed!

          Prometheus

          whitemoby wrote:

          I turned in my eck membership about

          8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I
          was

          very faithful to those initiate reports.

          Each month I wrote up my little letter,

          I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,

          and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And

          I sincerely believed that the Mahanta

          knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't

          have to actually mail it for the Mahanta

          to read it, but I enjoyed20the ritual).

          Now here is my worry and question.

          Please someone respond. ---

          I absolutely poured out my blood,

          sweat, and tears in those letters.

          I discussed all manner of private,

          personal, embarrassing matter.

          I bitched about my fellow eckists

          often.

          Now I worry that those letters are

          on file somewhere. I know it's silly,

          but I just hate the thought of it.

          I was hoping that maybe someone

          from eck headquarters just burned

          or trashed all those thousands of

          IROs they got each
          month.
          =0
          D

          Does anyone know??
        • Rebazar Tarzs
          Hey Moby, that is really interesting what you said about The Far Country - I, too, could never find anything written by him with that name. Maybe he meant
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 14, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hey Moby, that is really interesting what you said about "The Far Country" - I, too, could never find anything written by him with that name. Maybe he meant "The Light That Failed" or "The God of the Machine" or "The Hill of Illusion"!
             
            Actually what I forgot to say is that, regarding Initiate reports (!) is that if the "Mahanta" is who he says he is, "He" would know what you are writing, so I  felt there was no reason to waste a good stamp or two.  Then I  thought that "He" should know what I am experiencing, so what was the point of writing in the first place? 
             
            I didn't write hardly any of them at all -  it  didn't seem to matter with regard to initiations.
             
            The last one I wrote was in the early nineties, and it got printed in the H.I. Letter - I said that "ECKANKAR" did fit certain definitions of a religion.  It bothered me, otherwise I would not have looked into it. Within a couple of years, I regretted what I said. In a way, I felt that what I said was taken the wrong way in that I was just thinking on paper.
             
            There is no question that Paul and "Rebazar" disliked religion.  Or, more accurately, Julian Johnson and "a great master in India".
             
            Harold couldn't wait to change all that!
             
            I couldn't imagine, as a teenager in the seventies, going to the ECK Center to sing church hymns!
             
            Anyway, that is my "Initiate's Report" story. Also, I just couldn't imagine "Rebazar" writing initiate reports to "Fubbi Quantz" or whoever, and sending in a check every year!
             
            You would think that one wouldn't have stayed here for so long if they had to keep paying every year. And where would he have gotten his money?
             
            And why did he move from a cave in Tibet to a hut in Afganistan?  He let a few Chinese Communists scare him? 
             
            And if he lives there, why hasn't he found Osama? 
             
            Oh, that's right - he is just being neither for nor against.  Which is what we are all supposed to do - until we get a call or a letter from a "Higher Initiate" than we mere mortals are, and then it is obey or pay. 
             
            I know that writing initiate's reports was actually or supposedly for the good of initiates, but you can do that anyway, that is, just keeping a journal and/or a dream journal.
             
            One doesn't have to be a paid member of anything to write or do anything.  Was Rumi paying Shams for inspiration?  It appears that he and many other actual historical individuals who were supposedly ECK Masters didn't have all that much use for money.
             
            BTW - does anyone know how many so-called "Living Masters" are out there now?  At my last count, there were nearly ten just from obvious offshoots from "Eckankar," and I lost count when it came to Sant Mat, including, but not limited to groups such as Radhasoami, Ruhani Satsang and Surat Shabd Yoga, and their various offshoots besides "Eckankar."
             
            Just curious.  
             
            Thanks, Moby, for your response. It put a big ole smile on my face.
             
            Realbizarre Tarzs
             
             
             
              
             
                    
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
                

            --- On Mon, 9/14/09, whitemoby22 <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

            From: whitemoby22 <whitemoby22@...>
            Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
            To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 10:47 PM

             
            Hey Rebazar, I think your post just made my day. Big ole smile. - You mention "In My Soul I Am Free", which I never read until recently. In it, Paul says he titled "The Far Country" after a story written by Rudyard Kipling. But Kipling never wrote any kind of anything with that title. Why would PT even bother to lie about this?

            You know, Rebazar, Eckankar, like anything else, has its share of fools. But there are intelligent, thoughtful, sensible people there, as well. You know that. And it is utterly beyond me that some of these continue with the Eckankar parade. I cannot, quite literally, get my mind around it.

            moby

            In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Etznab!
            >  
            > Darwin, as the "Mahanta", implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I guess, "initiated" by "Rebazar Tarzs" - announced in the Mystic World in '74 or '75.  I think '74.
            >  
            > (Not the Rebazar Tarzs stuff. It was like Darwin was suddenly the Mahanta, a word which really means big or the head of a monastary, or maybe a big head.)  
            >  
            > I don't think that Darwin knew anything at all about Paul's plagiarism and paraphrasing, but he had no problem going along for the ride.  If he had known about all of that stuff, I don't  think that he would have given sentences or paragraphs from out of Paul's books to be put in the ECK Mata Journal as though they were his own fresh quotes, in the late seventies.
            >  
            > Ironically - Instant Karma! -  that is around the time that he started to find out everything, everything that you and I have found out thanks to interesting discoveries in bookstores and the internet.
            >  
            > Most "ECKists" did not know about the research of David Lane until the world wide web.
            > I didn't have a home computer until the end of the year 2000.  But during the nineties, while I was  doing my own research on "HU" and "ECK" or "EK" and the so-called lineage of "ECK"  Masters, I found some of the books that Paul had plagiarized from, but, stupidly, felt I had to keep it a secret from everybody, including  my wife.
            >  
            > This is one way in which a cult works.  Could it be a test?  A test of loyalty?  A test of the Law of Silence?  Something like  this could shatter the lives of thousands!  Or rather, the delusion of thousands. 
            >  
            > Then I found David Lane on the internet, and websites and stuff of interest from former ECKists - all fascinating, but especially an interview with Dr. Luis Bluth, who said he helped Paul with the copying from other books because he had those books, most notably, of course, written by Julian Johnson.
            >  
            > Then came the website and the book by Ford Johnson.
            >  
            > Then I still kept finding more and more stuff.
            >  
            > I went through the five stages of grieving.  Prometheus is absolutely right about Harold.
            >  
            > He wanted to be a Lutheran minister, but saw the chance to turn "ECKANKAR" (I shed a tear for Guru Nanak everytime I use that word) into his very own completely controlled, financially abundant Lutheran ministry.
            >  
            > At least, the music and the writings were so much more uplifting in the days of Paul and Darwin that there is no comparison.  The old newspaper, The ECK World News, had some intelligent writers. I suspect the best of the writers and the best of the musician/composers are probably gone now. 
            >  
            > I recently noticed that the main site has done away with its art section.
            >  
            > What does that tell you?
            >  
            > Harold is in no hurry to give out initiations, especially if you are under fifty or sixty. Why? Because when you get one, then you are in a hurry to get the next one. He won't give out any past the Eighth, so what will you do when you get your Eighth?
            >  
            > I would be afraid to find out how many Eighth initiates spend their time looking for that outer confirmation of the Ninth, or think they already have it. 
            >  
            > It seems like all of this has more to do with vanity than spirituality.
            >  
            > I recieved the "Seventh" in 2000, and then I bought a home computer!
            >  
            > It is true - the truth shall set you free!
            >  
            > The first three books I found regarding "ECKANKAR" in 1969 didn't mention initiations at all, except perhaps in a general way insofar as ancient mystery schools and stuff like that.
            >  
            > "In My Soul I Am Free" mentions that Paul didn't even want interested people to call themselves "chelas" because he wanted them to identify themselves not as followers, but as potential masters, or at least as spiritual beings who already have everything they need as Soul, a divine spark of God.
            >  
            > I get this feeling that the change in everything began in the mid to late sixties and had to  do with Gail and money and who knows what else?
            >  
            > I think  it is very interesting how some of the individuals on this site refer to "chelas" as co-dependents of Harold.
            >  
            > I have witnessed this kind of silliness since 1973.  I don't know what Darwin thought about it, but Harold sure seems to not only lust for it, but demand it.
            >  
            > BTW:  If you happen to suddenly get filthy rich and generous toward Corporate Eckankar, that may speed up your next initiation.  
            >  
            > I left a church, and religion in general, to join "ECKANKAR" - isn't that funny?
            >  
            > Like Rebazar Tarzs, I mean, Julian Johnson, said, "It may be good to be born in a church, but not to die in one."
            >  
            > Stop dying -  give yourself  a  break!
            >  
            > Realbizarre Tarzs
            >  
            > P.S.  Everything below the Soul Plane is psychological - and what games people play!
            >  
            > You are Soul whether or not you have this or that.  How will you bring your membership ID card after you leave the body? You know you are going to need it the most then!
            >  
            > Or, if you become an atheist, not that there is anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld might say, then hey, stop the nonsense and live it up!       
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >   
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >     
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >    
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >        
            >  
            >             
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >
            >
            > --- On Mon, 9/14/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
            > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
            > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:18 AM
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
            > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
            > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
            > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
            > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
            > that is, or that it should be, the case.
            >
            > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
            > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's.. I
            > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
            > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
            > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
            > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
            > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
            > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
            > some of the things in Ford's book and some
            > of the other information come out.
            >
            > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
            > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
            > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
            > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
            > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
            > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
            > questions there. They were not always the
            > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
            > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
            > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
            > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
            > IRO's, or no IROs.
            >
            > I don't know if this has anything to do with
            > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
            > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
            > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
            > initiations gen
            > erally, but I don't know what
            > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
            > that the longest period of time between the
            > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
            > seven years. That was the time between my
            > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
            > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
            >
            > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
            > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
            > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
            > less time than that (if it's true what they say
            > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
            > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
            > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
            >
            > Etznab
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
            > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
            > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
            >
            >  
            >
            > Hello Whitemoby and All.
            >
            > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
            >
            > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
            >
            > Scientologists.
            >
            > So, you might be okay on those old
            >
            > IROs. They do read, track and file info
            >
            > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
            >
            > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
            >
            > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
            >
            > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
            >
            > the same as others. Everyone dreams
            >
            > and has "experiences, " and spills their
            >
            > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
            >
            > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
            >
            > and their bad behaviours.
            >
            > I knew Eckists that
            > embellished their
            >
            > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
            >
            > asked to speak at major seminars, and
            >
            > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
            >
            > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
            >
            > It was a similar self-promotion as to
            >
            > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
            >
            > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
            >
            > ending cycle to get noticed!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > whitemoby wrote:
            >
            > I turned in my eck membership about
            >
            > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
            >
            > very faithful to those initiate reports.
            >
            > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
            >
            > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
            >
            > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
            >
            > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
            >
            > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
            >
            > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
            >
            > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
            >
            > Now here is my worry and question.
            >
            > Please someone respond. ---
            >
            > I absolutely poured out my blood,
            >
            > sweat, and tears in those letters.
            >
            > I discussed all manner of private,
            >
            > personal, embarrassing matter.
            >
            > I bitched about my fellow eckists
            >
            > often.
            >
            > Now I worry that those letters are
            >
            > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
            >
            > but I just hate the thought of it..
            >
            > I was hoping that maybe someone
            >
            > from eck headquarters just burned
            >
            > or trashed all those thousands of
            >
            > IROs they got each month.
            > =0
            > D
            >
            > Does anyone know??
            >


          • Rebazar Tarzs
            Hi Etznab!   You are very welcome!   Realbizarre Tarzs ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO To:
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 14, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Etznab!
               
              You are very welcome!
               
              Realbizarre Tarzs

              --- On Tue, 9/15/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

              From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
              Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
              To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 12:45 AM

               
              Thanks for that reply Rebazar. I'm grateful.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ yahoo.com>
              To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Mon, Sep 14, 2009 11:58 am
              Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO

               

              Hi Etznab!
               
              Darwin, as the "Mahanta", implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I
              guess, "initiated" by "Rebazar Tarzs" - announced in the Mystic World
              in '74 or '75.  I think '74.
               
              (Not the Rebazar Tarzs stuff. It was like Darwin was suddenly the
              Mahanta, a word which really means big or the head of a monastary,
              or maybe a big head.)  
               
              I don't think that Darwin knew anything at all about Paul's plagiarism
              and paraphrasing, but he had no problem going along for the ride.  If
              he had known about all of that stuff, I don't  think that he would have
              given sentences or paragraphs from out of Paul's books to be put in the
              ECK Mata Journal as though they were his own fresh quotes, in the late
              seventies.
               
              Ironically - Instant Karma! -  that is around the time that he started
              to find out everything, everything that you and I have found out thanks
              to interesting discoveries in bookstores and the internet.
               
              Most "ECKists" did not know about the research of David Lane until the
              world wide web.
              I didn't have a home computer until the end of the year 2000. 
              But
              during the nineties, while I was  doing my own research on "HU" and
              "ECK" or "EK" and the so-called lineage of "ECK"  Masters, I found some
              of the books that Paul had plagiarized from, but, stupidly, felt I had
              to keep it a secret from everybody, including  my wife.
               
              This is one way in which a cult works.  Could it be a test?  A test of
              loyalty?  A test of the Law of Silence?  Something like  this could
              shatter the lives of thousands!  Or rather, the delusion of thousands. 
               
              Then I found David Lane on the internet, and websites and stuff of
              interest from former ECKists - all fascinating, but especially an
              interview with Dr. Luis Bluth, who said he helped Paul with the copying
              from other books because he had those books, most notably, of course,
              written by Julian Johnson.
               
              Then came the website and the book by Ford Johnson.
               
              Then I still kept finding more and more stuff.
               
              I went through the five stages of grieving.  Prometheus is
              absolutely right about Harold.
               
              He wanted to be a Lutheran minister, but saw the chance to turn
              "ECKANKAR" (I shed a tear for Guru Nanak everytime I use that word)
              into his very own completely controlled, financially abundant Lutheran
              ministry.
               
              At least, the music and the writings were so much more uplifting in the
              days of Paul and Darwin that there i
              s no comparison.  The old
              newspaper, The ECK World News, had some intelligent writers. I suspect
              the best of the writers and the best of the musician/composers are
              probably gone now. 
               
              I recently noticed that the main site has done away with its art
              section.
               
              What does that tell you?
               
              Harold is in no hurry to give out initiations, especially if you are
              under fifty or sixty. Why? Because when you get one, then you are in a
              hurry to get the next one. He won't give out any past the Eighth,
              so what will you do when you get your Eighth?
               
              I would be afraid to find out how many Eighth initiates spend their
              time looking for that outer confirmation of the Ninth, or think they
              already have it. 
               
              It seems like all of this has more to do with vanity than spirituality.
               
              I recieved the "Seventh" in 2000, and then I bought a home computer!
               
              It is true - the truth shall set you free!
               
              The first three books I found regarding "ECKANKAR" in 1969 didn't
              mention initiations at all, except perhaps in a general way insofar as
              ancient mystery schools and stuff like that.
               
              "In My Soul I Am Free" mentions that Paul didn't even want interested
              people to call themselves "chelas" because he wanted them to identify
              themselves not as followers, but as potential masters, or at least as
              spiritual beings who already=2
              0have everything they need as Soul, a
              divine spark of God.
               
              I get this feeling that the change in everything began in the mid to
              late sixties and had to  do with Gail and money and who knows what else?
               
              I think  it is very interesting how some of the individuals on this
              site refer to "chelas" as co-dependents of Harold.
               
              I have witnessed this kind of silliness since 1973.  I don't know what
              Darwin thought about it, but Harold sure seems to not only lust for it,
              but demand it.
               
              BTW:  If you happen to suddenly get filthy rich and generous toward
              Corporate Eckankar, that may speed up your next initiation.  
               
              I left a church, and religion in general, to join "ECKANKAR" - isn't
              that funny?
               
              Like Rebazar Tarzs, I mean, Julian Johnson, said, "It may be good to be
              born in a church, but not to die in one."
               
              Stop dying -  give yourself  a  break!
               
              Realbizarre Tarzs
               
              P.S.  Everything below the Soul Plane is psychological - and what games
              people play!
               
              You are Soul whether or not you have this or that.  How will you bring
              your membership ID card after you leave the body? You know you are
              going to need it the most then!
               
              Or, if you become an atheist, not that there is anything wrong with
              that, as Jerry Seinfeld might say, then hey, stop the nonsense and l
              ive
              it up!       
               
               
               
                
               
               
               
                  
               
               
               
                 
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
                     
               
                          
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               

              --- On Mon, 9/14/09, etznab@... &lt;etznab@...&gt; wrote:

              From: etznab@... &lt;etznab@...&gt;
              Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
              To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:18 AM

               

              What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
              or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
              I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
              it could reflect negatively on your initiations
              (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
              that is, or that it should be, the case.

              Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
              book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
              didn't think that what I wanted to write about
              was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
              cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
              still do have a number of questions. Besides,
              I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
              Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
              some of the things in Ford's book and some
              of the other information come out.

              I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
              considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the
              same
              time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
              like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
              (not
              very much at the latter though, for quite
              some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
              questions there. They were not always the
              most welcome by all readers, though. Even
              clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
              an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
              "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
              IRO's, or no IROs.

              I don't know if this has anything to do with
              the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
              nearly ten years. My understanding is that
              Harold has "slowed down" the time between
              initiations gen
              erally, but I don't know what
              that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
              that the longest period of time between the
              3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
              seven years. That was the time between my
              3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
              4th and 5th. I don't know.

              Back in Paul's day a person could go from
              1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
              on the person, you
              could go from 1 to 12 in
              less time than that (if it's true what they say
              about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
              person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
              Darwin a 13th, 14th?

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 &lt;prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com&gt;
              To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
              Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO

               

              Hello Whitemoby and All.
              =0
              A
              Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,

              at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and

              Scientologists.

              So, you might be okay on those old

              IROs. They do read, track
              and file info

              from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's

              "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,

              unless printed or used, do get destroyed.

              Also, most IROs sound pretty much the

              the same as others. Everyone dreams

              and has "experiences, " and spills their

              guts... at first. And, almost everyone

              pretty much bitches about other Eckists

              and their bad behaviours.

              I knew Eckists that
              embellished their

              IROs in order to get promoted and/or

              asked to speak at major seminars, and

              to have their dreams/ekperiences printed

              or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.

              It was a similar self-promotion as to

              what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below

              or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never

              ending cycle to get noticed!

              Prometheus

              whitemoby wrote:

              I turned in my eck membership about

              8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I
              was

              very faithful to those initiate reports.

              Each month I wrote up my little letter,

              I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,

              and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And

              I sincerely believed that the Mahanta

              knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't

              have to actually mail it for the Mahanta

              to read it, but I enjoyed20the ritual).

              Now here is my worry and question.

              Please someone respond. ---

              I absolutely poured out my blood,

              sweat, and tears in those letters.

              I discussed all manner of private,

              personal, embarrassing matter.

              I bitched about my fellow eckists

              often.

              Now I worry that those letters are

              on file somewhere. I know it's silly,

              but I just hate the thought of it.

              I was hoping that maybe someone

              from eck headquarters just burned

              or trashed all those thousands of

              IROs they got each
              month.
              =0
              D

              Does anyone know??


            • harrisonferrel
              Initiations. Like everything else in this ridiculous cult, what do they mean? Nothing. Not a thing. Harold slows down initiations while elevating himself to
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 15, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Initiations. Like everything else in this ridiculous cult, what do they mean? Nothing. Not a thing. Harold slows down initiations while elevating himself to superstardom. I think he was a 14th last time I counted. Okay, so I am a gazillionth. It's like a little kid's game. Just keep inventing a bigger number then scream out "Infinity!!" What a joke. To think this ever meant anything to me.

                If klemp is anything he should prove it by at least flying around the room or trying to dodge a spear or eating glass. Something impressive other than just saying he's god. Hell, if he wanted to I'd be willing to fight him hand-to-hand in public. Like other cult leaders, he intimidates his followers so they don't challenge him. Then they defend him by agreeing that he is too spiritual to show his powers. Funny. If this were true he would just shut the hell up and not even come out in public. Who decides? Apparently he does because nobody challenges the liar to his face or puts him on the spot.

                But then again, eckists are so brainwashed that even if they saw klemp put on the spot they would spin it so that they would see him as being unjustly picked on. You can't win when it comes to a brainwashed constituency. So he continues to be the greatest initiate ever, higher than anybody, even the silly eck masters he makes up.

                And in case anybody is thinking it, yes, I am MAD, ANGRY, PISSED OFF and I'm proud of it because that means I'm human and I'm not taking it any more. Klemp and eckankar owe me time, money and energy for acting under false pretenses. He's a criminal and a liar, so of course he'll continue to invent new levels of initiation for himself.



                -----------------

                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
                > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
                > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
                > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
                > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
                > that is, or that it should be, the case.
                >
                > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
                > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
                > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
                > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
                > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
                > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
                > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
                > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
                > some of the things in Ford's book and some
                > of the other information come out.
                >
                > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
                > considered "detractor-talk", too. At the same
                > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
                > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
                > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
                > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
                > questions there. They were not always the
                > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
                > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
                > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
                > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
                > IRO's, or no IROs.
                >
                > I don't know if this has anything to do with
                > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
                > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
                > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
                > initiations gen
                > erally, but I don't know what
                > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
                > that the longest period of time between the
                > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
                > seven years. That was the time between my
                > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
                > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
                >
                > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
                > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
                > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
                > less time than that (if it's true what they say
                > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
                > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
                > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
                > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Whitemoby and All.
                >
                > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
                >
                > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
                >
                > Scientologists.
                >
                >
                >
                > So, you might be okay on those old
                >
                > IROs. They do read, track and file info
                >
                > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
                >
                > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
                >
                > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
                >
                > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
                >
                > the same as others. Everyone dreams
                >
                > and has "experiences," and spills their
                >
                > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
                >
                > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
                >
                > and their bad behaviours.
                >
                >
                >
                > I knew Eckists that
                > embellished their
                >
                > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
                >
                > asked to speak at major seminars, and
                >
                > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
                >
                > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
                >
                > It was a similar self-promotion as to
                >
                > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
                >
                > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
                >
                > ending cycle to get noticed!
                >
                >
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                >
                > whitemoby wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > I turned in my eck membership about
                >
                > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
                >
                > very faithful to those initiate reports.
                >
                > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
                >
                > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
                >
                > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
                >
                > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
                >
                > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
                >
                > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
                >
                > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
                >
                >
                >
                > Now here is my worry and question.
                >
                > Please someone respond. ---
                >
                > I absolutely poured out my blood,
                >
                > sweat, and tears in those letters.
                >
                > I discussed all manner of private,
                >
                > personal, embarrassing matter.
                >
                > I bitched about my fellow eckists
                >
                > often.
                >
                >
                >
                > Now I worry that those letters are
                >
                > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
                >
                > but I just hate the thought of it.
                >
                > I was hoping that maybe someone
                >
                > from eck headquarters just burned
                >
                > or trashed all those thousands of
                >
                > IROs they got each month.
                > =0
                > D
                >
                >
                > Does anyone know??
                >
              • Ken Pearson
                Wow, this is tense with ego-this eck stuff. The basis of my spirituality are the 12 Steps of AA which, I think, is the essence of the spirituality of the main
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 16, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Wow, this is tense with ego-this eck stuff. The basis of my spirituality are the 12 Steps of AA which, I think, is the essence of the spirituality of the main religions set out in a systemaic way to reduce ego andtenancies to esoteric nonsense. I recommend it for all truth seekers. Principles before personalities!!
                  Ken.

                  --- On Wed, 9/16/09, harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  From: harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: [eckankartruth] Initiations Good For Nothing
                  To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 6:51 AM

                   
                  Initiations. Like everything else in this ridiculous cult, what do they mean? Nothing. Not a thing. Harold slows down initiations while elevating himself to superstardom. I think he was a 14th last time I counted. Okay, so I am a gazillionth. It's like a little kid's game. Just keep inventing a bigger number then scream out "Infinity!!" What a joke. To think this ever meant anything to me.

                  If klemp is anything he should prove it by at least flying around the room or trying to dodge a spear or eating glass. Something impressive other than just saying he's god. Hell, if he wanted to I'd be willing to fight him hand-to-hand in public. Like other cult leaders, he intimidates his followers so they don't challenge him. Then they defend him by agreeing that he is too spiritual to show his powers. Funny. If this were true he would just shut the hell up and not even come out in public. Who decides? Apparently he does because nobody challenges the liar to his face or puts him on the spot.

                  But then again, eckists are so brainwashed that even if they saw klemp put on the spot they would spin it so that they would see him as being unjustly picked on. You can't win when it comes to a brainwashed constituency. So he continues to be the greatest initiate ever, higher than anybody, even the silly eck masters he makes up.

                  And in case anybody is thinking it, yes, I am MAD, ANGRY, PISSED OFF and I'm proud of it because that means I'm human and I'm not taking it any more. Klemp and eckankar owe me time, money and energy for acting under false pretenses. He's a criminal and a liar, so of course he'll continue to invent new levels of initiation for himself.

                  ------------ -----

                  --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, etznab@... wrote:
                  >
                  > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
                  > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
                  > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
                  > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
                  > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
                  > that is, or that it should be, the case.
                  >
                  > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
                  > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
                  > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
                  > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
                  > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
                  > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
                  > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
                  > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
                  > some of the things in Ford's book and some
                  > of the other information come out.
                  >
                  > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
                  > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
                  > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
                  > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
                  > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
                  > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
                  > questions there. They were not always the
                  > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
                  > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
                  > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
                  > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
                  > IRO's, or no IROs.
                  >
                  > I don't know if this has anything to do with
                  > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
                  > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
                  > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
                  > initiations gen
                  > erally, but I don't know what
                  > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
                  > that the longest period of time between the
                  > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
                  > seven years. That was the time between my
                  > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
                  > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
                  >
                  > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
                  > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
                  > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
                  > less time than that (if it's true what they say
                  > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
                  > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
                  > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...>
                  > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
                  > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello Whitemoby and All.
                  >
                  > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
                  >
                  > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
                  >
                  > Scientologists.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > So, you might be okay on those old
                  >
                  > IROs. They do read, track and file info
                  >
                  > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
                  >
                  > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
                  >
                  > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
                  >
                  > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
                  >
                  > the same as others. Everyone dreams
                  >
                  > and has "experiences, " and spills their
                  >
                  > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
                  >
                  > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
                  >
                  > and their bad behaviours.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I knew Eckists that
                  > embellished their
                  >
                  > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
                  >
                  > asked to speak at major seminars, and
                  >
                  > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
                  >
                  > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
                  >
                  > It was a similar self-promotion as to
                  >
                  > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
                  >
                  > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
                  >
                  > ending cycle to get noticed!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > whitemoby wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I turned in my eck membership about
                  >
                  > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
                  >
                  > very faithful to those initiate reports.
                  >
                  > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
                  >
                  > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
                  >
                  > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
                  >
                  > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
                  >
                  > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
                  >
                  > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
                  >
                  > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Now here is my worry and question.
                  >
                  > Please someone respond. ---
                  >
                  > I absolutely poured out my blood,
                  >
                  > sweat, and tears in those letters.
                  >
                  > I discussed all manner of private,
                  >
                  > personal, embarrassing matter.
                  >
                  > I bitched about my fellow eckists
                  >
                  > often.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Now I worry that those letters are
                  >
                  > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
                  >
                  > but I just hate the thought of it.
                  >
                  > I was hoping that maybe someone
                  >
                  > from eck headquarters just burned
                  >
                  > or trashed all those thousands of
                  >
                  > IROs they got each month.
                  > =0
                  > D
                  >
                  >
                  > Does anyone know??
                  >


                • whitemoby22
                  I agree with this, Ken. The 12 steps are a wonderful path . I know most around here are past caring about this question; but I do wonder to what extent
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 16, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I agree with this, Ken. The 12 steps are a wonderful "path".

                    I know most around here are past caring about this question; but I do wonder to what extent Harold Klemp believes himself? Does he sit in his cozy den at night, leaned back in the recliner, chuckling over his latest Mystic World article, fondling his bank statement, carving notches in his shariyat?? Or has he gotten off onto some trip where he believes he is "God". I honestly do wonder.

                    And here is something else I wonder. Perhaps prometheus can answer. In what ways do you see Harold turning Eckankar into a Lutheran oriented religlion? I know the worship services have changed, but what about his ideas? Are they deviating from more traditional sant mat ideology?

                    thanks, moby...




                    In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Ken Pearson <maputo95@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Wow, this is tense with ego-this eck stuff. The basis of my spirituality are the 12 Steps of AA which, I think, is the essence of the spirituality of the main religions set out in a systemaic way to reduce ego andtenancies to esoteric nonsense. I recommend it for all truth seekers. Principles before personalities!!
                    > Ken.
                    >
                    > --- On Wed, 9/16/09, harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: [eckankartruth] Initiations Good For Nothing
                    > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 6:51 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Initiations. Like everything else in this ridiculous cult, what do they mean? Nothing. Not a thing. Harold slows down initiations while elevating himself to superstardom. I think he was a 14th last time I counted. Okay, so I am a gazillionth. It's like a little kid's game. Just keep inventing a bigger number then scream out "Infinity!!" What a joke. To think this ever meant anything to me.
                    >
                    > If klemp is anything he should prove it by at least flying around the room or trying to dodge a spear or eating glass. Something impressive other than just saying he's god. Hell, if he wanted to I'd be willing to fight him hand-to-hand in public. Like other cult leaders, he intimidates his followers so they don't challenge him. Then they defend him by agreeing that he is too spiritual to show his powers. Funny. If this were true he would just shut the hell up and not even come out in public. Who decides? Apparently he does because nobody challenges the liar to his face or puts him on the spot.
                    >
                    > But then again, eckists are so brainwashed that even if they saw klemp put on the spot they would spin it so that they would see him as being unjustly picked on. You can't win when it comes to a brainwashed constituency. So he continues to be the greatest initiate ever, higher than anybody, even the silly eck masters he makes up.
                    >
                    > And in case anybody is thinking it, yes, I am MAD, ANGRY, PISSED OFF and I'm proud of it because that means I'm human and I'm not taking it any more. Klemp and eckankar owe me time, money and energy for acting under false pretenses. He's a criminal and a liar, so of course he'll continue to invent new levels of initiation for himself.
                    >
                    > ------------ -----
                    >
                    > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, etznab@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
                    > > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
                    > > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
                    > > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
                    > > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
                    > > that is, or that it should be, the case.
                    > >
                    > > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
                    > > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
                    > > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
                    > > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
                    > > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
                    > > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
                    > > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
                    > > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
                    > > some of the things in Ford's book and some
                    > > of the other information come out.
                    > >
                    > > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
                    > > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
                    > > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
                    > > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
                    > > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
                    > > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
                    > > questions there. They were not always the
                    > > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
                    > > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
                    > > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
                    > > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
                    > > IRO's, or no IROs.
                    > >
                    > > I don't know if this has anything to do with
                    > > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
                    > > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
                    > > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
                    > > initiations gen
                    > > erally, but I don't know what
                    > > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
                    > > that the longest period of time between the
                    > > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
                    > > seven years. That was the time between my
                    > > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
                    > > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
                    > >
                    > > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
                    > > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
                    > > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
                    > > less time than that (if it's true what they say
                    > > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
                    > > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
                    > > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
                    > >
                    > > Etznab
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@>
                    > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
                    > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hello Whitemoby and All.
                    > >
                    > > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
                    > >
                    > > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
                    > >
                    > > Scientologists.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > So, you might be okay on those old
                    > >
                    > > IROs. They do read, track and file info
                    > >
                    > > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
                    > >
                    > > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
                    > >
                    > > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
                    > >
                    > > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
                    > >
                    > > the same as others. Everyone dreams
                    > >
                    > > and has "experiences, " and spills their
                    > >
                    > > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
                    > >
                    > > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
                    > >
                    > > and their bad behaviours.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I knew Eckists that
                    > > embellished their
                    > >
                    > > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
                    > >
                    > > asked to speak at major seminars, and
                    > >
                    > > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
                    > >
                    > > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
                    > >
                    > > It was a similar self-promotion as to
                    > >
                    > > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
                    > >
                    > > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
                    > >
                    > > ending cycle to get noticed!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > whitemoby wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I turned in my eck membership about
                    > >
                    > > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
                    > >
                    > > very faithful to those initiate reports.
                    > >
                    > > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
                    > >
                    > > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
                    > >
                    > > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
                    > >
                    > > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
                    > >
                    > > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
                    > >
                    > > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
                    > >
                    > > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Now here is my worry and question.
                    > >
                    > > Please someone respond. ---
                    > >
                    > > I absolutely poured out my blood,
                    > >
                    > > sweat, and tears in those letters.
                    > >
                    > > I discussed all manner of private,
                    > >
                    > > personal, embarrassing matter.
                    > >
                    > > I bitched about my fellow eckists
                    > >
                    > > often.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Now I worry that those letters are
                    > >
                    > > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
                    > >
                    > > but I just hate the thought of it.
                    > >
                    > > I was hoping that maybe someone
                    > >
                    > > from eck headquarters just burned
                    > >
                    > > or trashed all those thousands of
                    > >
                    > > IROs they got each month.
                    > > =0
                    > > D
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Does anyone know??
                    > >
                    >
                  • Ken Pearson
                    Thanks Moby   With the 12 Steps you are free to explore different religious ideas or one religion or none at all. There are Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, deists
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 16, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks Moby
                       
                      With the 12 Steps you are free to explore different religious ideas or one religion or none at all. There are Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, deists with no affiliation and Atheists all progressing in AA!!! 
                       
                      Ken

                      --- On Wed, 9/16/09, whitemoby22 <whitemoby22@...> wrote:

                      From: whitemoby22 <whitemoby22@...>
                      Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Acessible Spirituality for Free
                      To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 4:23 PM

                       
                      I agree with this, Ken. The 12 steps are a wonderful "path".

                      I know most around here are past caring about this question; but I do wonder to what extent Harold Klemp believes himself? Does he sit in his cozy den at night, leaned back in the recliner, chuckling over his latest Mystic World article, fondling his bank statement, carving notches in his shariyat?? Or has he gotten off onto some trip where he believes he is "God". I honestly do wonder.

                      And here is something else I wonder. Perhaps prometheus can answer. In what ways do you see Harold turning Eckankar into a Lutheran oriented religlion? I know the worship services have changed, but what about his ideas? Are they deviating from more traditional sant mat ideology?

                      thanks, moby...

                      In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, Ken Pearson <maputo95@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Wow, this is tense with ego-this eck stuff. The basis of my spirituality are the 12 Steps of AA which, I think, is the essence of the spirituality of the main religions set out in a systemaic way to reduce ego andtenancies to esoteric nonsense. I recommend it for all truth seekers. Principles before personalities! !
                      > Ken.
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 9/16/09, harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                      > Subject: [eckankartruth] Initiations Good For Nothing
                      > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 6:51 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Initiations. Like everything else in this ridiculous cult, what do they mean? Nothing. Not a thing. Harold slows down initiations while elevating himself to superstardom. I think he was a 14th last time I counted. Okay, so I am a gazillionth. It's like a little kid's game. Just keep inventing a bigger number then scream out "Infinity!!" What a joke. To think this ever meant anything to me.
                      >
                      > If klemp is anything he should prove it by at least flying around the room or trying to dodge a spear or eating glass. Something impressive other than just saying he's god. Hell, if he wanted to I'd be willing to fight him hand-to-hand in public. Like other cult leaders, he intimidates his followers so they don't challenge him. Then they defend him by agreeing that he is too spiritual to show his powers. Funny. If this were true he would just shut the hell up and not even come out in public. Who decides? Apparently he does because nobody challenges the liar to his face or puts him on the spot.
                      >
                      > But then again, eckists are so brainwashed that even if they saw klemp put on the spot they would spin it so that they would see him as being unjustly picked on. You can't win when it comes to a brainwashed constituency. So he continues to be the greatest initiate ever, higher than anybody, even the silly eck masters he makes up.
                      >
                      > And in case anybody is thinking it, yes, I am MAD, ANGRY, PISSED OFF and I'm proud of it because that means I'm human and I'm not taking it any more. Klemp and eckankar owe me time, money and energy for acting under false pretenses. He's a criminal and a liar, so of course he'll continue to invent new levels of initiation for himself.
                      >
                      > ------------ -----
                      >
                      > --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, etznab@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
                      > > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
                      > > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
                      > > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
                      > > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
                      > > that is, or that it should be, the case.
                      > >
                      > > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
                      > > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
                      > > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
                      > > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
                      > > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
                      > > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
                      > > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
                      > > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
                      > > some of the things in Ford's book and some
                      > > of the other information come out.
                      > >
                      > > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
                      > > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
                      > > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
                      > > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
                      > > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
                      > > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
                      > > questions there. They were not always the
                      > > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
                      > > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
                      > > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
                      > > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
                      > > IRO's, or no IROs.
                      > >
                      > > I don't know if this has anything to do with
                      > > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
                      > > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
                      > > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
                      > > initiations gen
                      > > erally, but I don't know what
                      > > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
                      > > that the longest period of time between the
                      > > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
                      > > seven years. That was the time between my
                      > > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
                      > > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
                      > >
                      > > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
                      > > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
                      > > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
                      > > less time than that (if it's true what they say
                      > > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
                      > > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
                      > > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
                      > >
                      > > Etznab
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@>
                      > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
                      > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                      > >
                      > >  
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hello Whitemoby and All.
                      > >
                      > > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
                      > >
                      > > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
                      > >
                      > > Scientologists.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > So, you might be okay on those old
                      > >
                      > > IROs. They do read, track and file info
                      > >
                      > > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
                      > >
                      > > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
                      > >
                      > > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
                      > >
                      > > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
                      > >
                      > > the same as others. Everyone dreams
                      > >
                      > > and has "experiences, " and spills their
                      > >
                      > > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
                      > >
                      > > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
                      > >
                      > > and their bad behaviours.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I knew Eckists that
                      > > embellished their
                      > >
                      > > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
                      > >
                      > > asked to speak at major seminars, and
                      > >
                      > > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
                      > >
                      > > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
                      > >
                      > > It was a similar self-promotion as to
                      > >
                      > > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
                      > >
                      > > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
                      > >
                      > > ending cycle to get noticed!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > whitemoby wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I turned in my eck membership about
                      > >
                      > > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
                      > >
                      > > very faithful to those initiate reports.
                      > >
                      > > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
                      > >
                      > > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
                      > >
                      > > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
                      > >
                      > > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
                      > >
                      > > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
                      > >
                      > > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
                      > >
                      > > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Now here is my worry and question.
                      > >
                      > > Please someone respond. ---
                      > >
                      > > I absolutely poured out my blood,
                      > >
                      > > sweat, and tears in those letters.
                      > >
                      > > I discussed all manner of private,
                      > >
                      > > personal, embarrassing matter.
                      > >
                      > > I bitched about my fellow eckists
                      > >
                      > > often.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Now I worry that those letters are
                      > >
                      > > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
                      > >
                      > > but I just hate the thought of it.
                      > >
                      > > I was hoping that maybe someone
                      > >
                      > > from eck headquarters just burned
                      > >
                      > > or trashed all those thousands of
                      > >
                      > > IROs they got each month.
                      > > =0
                      > > D
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Does anyone know??
                      > >
                      >


                    • Rebazar Tarzs
                      SO TRUE!!!   It is nice to see truth now and then.  ... From: harrisonferrel Subject: [eckankartruth] Initiations Good For Nothing
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 16, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        SO TRUE!!!
                         
                        It is nice to see truth now and then. 

                        --- On Wed, 9/16/09, harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        From: harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: [eckankartruth] Initiations Good For Nothing
                        To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 5:51 AM

                         
                        Initiations. Like everything else in this ridiculous cult, what do they mean? Nothing. Not a thing. Harold slows down initiations while elevating himself to superstardom. I think he was a 14th last time I counted. Okay, so I am a gazillionth. It's like a little kid's game. Just keep inventing a bigger number then scream out "Infinity!!" What a joke. To think this ever meant anything to me.

                        If klemp is anything he should prove it by at least flying around the room or trying to dodge a spear or eating glass. Something impressive other than just saying he's god. Hell, if he wanted to I'd be willing to fight him hand-to-hand in public. Like other cult leaders, he intimidates his followers so they don't challenge him. Then they defend him by agreeing that he is too spiritual to show his powers. Funny. If this were true he would just shut the hell up and not even come out in public. Who decides? Apparently he does because nobody challenges the liar to his face or puts him on the spot.

                        But then again, eckists are so brainwashed that even if they saw klemp put on the spot they would spin it so that they would see him as being unjustly picked on. You can't win when it comes to a brainwashed constituency. So he continues to be the greatest initiate ever, higher than anybody, even the silly eck masters he makes up.

                        And in case anybody is thinking it, yes, I am MAD, ANGRY, PISSED OFF and I'm proud of it because that means I'm human and I'm not taking it any more. Klemp and eckankar owe me time, money and energy for acting under false pretenses. He's a criminal and a liar, so of course he'll continue to invent new levels of initiation for himself.

                        ------------ -----

                        --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, etznab@... wrote:
                        >
                        > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
                        > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
                        > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
                        > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
                        > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
                        > that is, or that it should be, the case.
                        >
                        > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
                        > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
                        > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
                        > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
                        > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
                        > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
                        > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
                        > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
                        > some of the things in Ford's book and some
                        > of the other information come out.
                        >
                        > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
                        > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
                        > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
                        > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
                        > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
                        > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
                        > questions there. They were not always the
                        > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
                        > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
                        > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
                        > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
                        > IRO's, or no IROs.
                        >
                        > I don't know if this has anything to do with
                        > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
                        > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
                        > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
                        > initiations gen
                        > erally, but I don't know what
                        > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
                        > that the longest period of time between the
                        > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
                        > seven years. That was the time between my
                        > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
                        > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
                        >
                        > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
                        > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
                        > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
                        > less time than that (if it's true what they say
                        > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
                        > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
                        > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
                        >
                        > Etznab
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@...>
                        > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
                        > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Whitemoby and All.
                        >
                        > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
                        >
                        > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
                        >
                        > Scientologists.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > So, you might be okay on those old
                        >
                        > IROs. They do read, track and file info
                        >
                        > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
                        >
                        > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
                        >
                        > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
                        >
                        > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
                        >
                        > the same as others. Everyone dreams
                        >
                        > and has "experiences, " and spills their
                        >
                        > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
                        >
                        > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
                        >
                        > and their bad behaviours.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I knew Eckists that
                        > embellished their
                        >
                        > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
                        >
                        > asked to speak at major seminars, and
                        >
                        > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
                        >
                        > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
                        >
                        > It was a similar self-promotion as to
                        >
                        > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
                        >
                        > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
                        >
                        > ending cycle to get noticed!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > whitemoby wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I turned in my eck membership about
                        >
                        > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
                        >
                        > very faithful to those initiate reports.
                        >
                        > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
                        >
                        > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
                        >
                        > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
                        >
                        > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
                        >
                        > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
                        >
                        > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
                        >
                        > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Now here is my worry and question.
                        >
                        > Please someone respond. ---
                        >
                        > I absolutely poured out my blood,
                        >
                        > sweat, and tears in those letters.
                        >
                        > I discussed all manner of private,
                        >
                        > personal, embarrassing matter.
                        >
                        > I bitched about my fellow eckists
                        >
                        > often.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Now I worry that those letters are
                        >
                        > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
                        >
                        > but I just hate the thought of it.
                        >
                        > I was hoping that maybe someone
                        >
                        > from eck headquarters just burned
                        >
                        > or trashed all those thousands of
                        >
                        > IROs they got each month.
                        > =0
                        > D
                        >
                        >
                        > Does anyone know??
                        >


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        http://mail.yahoo.com
                      • harrisonferrel
                        I m an atheist and proud of it! I ll continue to be this way until somebody can show me one piece of evidence that any of these notions are real. I ve heard
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 16, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I'm an atheist and proud of it! I'll continue to be this way until somebody can show me one piece of evidence that any of these notions are real. I've heard all there is to hear in the way of rationalizations and half-truths and leaping to conclusions, but nothing that stands the test of proof. Morality certainly doesn't come from any religion. Just read the texts and you'll find immoral acts performed by a god. Of course, religious leaders are no example of morality: that's a given.

                          I now know far too much about psychology, mythology and so forth, to be swayed into thinking that a delusion or visitation is anything but the mind at work. Anything beyond this shall just have to be filed in my "I don't know what it is, but I won't jump to a conclusion" box.


                          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Etznab!
                          >  
                          > Darwin, as the "Mahanta", implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I guess, "initiated" by "Rebazar Tarzs" - announced in the Mystic World in '74 or '75.  I think '74.
                          >  
                          > (Not the Rebazar Tarzs stuff. It was like Darwin was suddenly the Mahanta, a word which really means big or the head of a monastary, or maybe a big head.)  
                          >  
                          > I don't think that Darwin knew anything at all about Paul's plagiarism and paraphrasing, but he had no problem going along for the ride.  If he had known about all of that stuff, I don't  think that he would have given sentences or paragraphs from out of Paul's books to be put in the ECK Mata Journal as though they were his own fresh quotes, in the late seventies.
                          >  
                          > Ironically - Instant Karma! -  that is around the time that he started to find out everything, everything that you and I have found out thanks to interesting discoveries in bookstores and the internet.
                          >  
                          > Most "ECKists" did not know about the research of David Lane until the world wide web.
                          > I didn't have a home computer until the end of the year 2000.  But during the nineties, while I was  doing my own research on "HU" and "ECK" or "EK" and the so-called lineage of "ECK"  Masters, I found some of the books that Paul had plagiarized from, but, stupidly, felt I had to keep it a secret from everybody, including  my wife.
                          >  
                          > This is one way in which a cult works.  Could it be a test?  A test of loyalty?  A test of the Law of Silence?  Something like this could shatter the lives of thousands!  Or rather, the delusion of thousands. 
                          >  
                          > Then I found David Lane on the internet, and websites and stuff of interest from former ECKists - all fascinating, but especially an interview with Dr. Luis Bluth, who said he helped Paul with the copying from other books because he had those books, most notably, of course, written by Julian Johnson.
                          >  
                          > Then came the website and the book by Ford Johnson.
                          >  
                          > Then I still kept finding more and more stuff.
                          >  
                          > I went through the five stages of grieving.  Prometheus is absolutely right about Harold.
                          >  
                          > He wanted to be a Lutheran minister, but saw the chance to turn "ECKANKAR" (I shed a tear for Guru Nanak everytime I use that word) into his very own completely controlled, financially abundant Lutheran ministry.
                          >  
                          > At least, the music and the writings were so much more uplifting in the days of Paul and Darwin that there is no comparison.  The old newspaper, The ECK World News, had some intelligent writers. I suspect the best of the writers and the best of the musician/composers are probably gone now. 
                          >  
                          > I recently noticed that the main site has done away with its art section.
                          >  
                          > What does that tell you?
                          >  
                          > Harold is in no hurry to give out initiations, especially if you are under fifty or sixty. Why? Because when you get one, then you are in a hurry to get the next one. He won't give out any past the Eighth, so what will you do when you get your Eighth?
                          >  
                          > I would be afraid to find out how many Eighth initiates spend their time looking for that outer confirmation of the Ninth, or think they already have it. 
                          >  
                          > It seems like all of this has more to do with vanity than spirituality.
                          >  
                          > I recieved the "Seventh" in 2000, and then I bought a home computer!
                          >  
                          > It is true - the truth shall set you free!
                          >  
                          > The first three books I found regarding "ECKANKAR" in 1969 didn't mention initiations at all, except perhaps in a general way insofar as ancient mystery schools and stuff like that.
                          >  
                          > "In My Soul I Am Free" mentions that Paul didn't even want interested people to call themselves "chelas" because he wanted them to identify themselves not as followers, but as potential masters, or at least as spiritual beings who already have everything they need as Soul, a divine spark of God.
                          >  
                          > I get this feeling that the change in everything began in the mid to late sixties and had to  do with Gail and money and who knows what else?
                          >  
                          > I think  it is very interesting how some of the individuals on this site refer to "chelas" as co-dependents of Harold.
                          >  
                          > I have witnessed this kind of silliness since 1973.  I don't know what Darwin thought about it, but Harold sure seems to not only lust for it, but demand it.
                          >  
                          > BTW:  If you happen to suddenly get filthy rich and generous toward Corporate Eckankar, that may speed up your next initiation.  
                          >  
                          > I left a church, and religion in general, to join "ECKANKAR" - isn't that funny?
                          >  
                          > Like Rebazar Tarzs, I mean, Julian Johnson, said, "It may be good to be born in a church, but not to die in one."
                          >  
                          > Stop dying -  give yourself  a  break!
                          >  
                          > Realbizarre Tarzs
                          >  
                          > P.S.  Everything below the Soul Plane is psychological - and what games people play!
                          >  
                          > You are Soul whether or not you have this or that.  How will you bring your membership ID card after you leave the body? You know you are going to need it the most then!
                          >  
                          > Or, if you become an atheist, not that there is anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld might say, then hey, stop the nonsense and live it up!       
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >   
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >     
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >    
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >        
                          >  
                          >             
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Mon, 9/14/09, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                          > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:18 AM
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
                          > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
                          > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
                          > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
                          > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
                          > that is, or that it should be, the case.
                          >
                          > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
                          > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
                          > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
                          > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
                          > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
                          > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
                          > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
                          > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
                          > some of the things in Ford's book and some
                          > of the other information come out.
                          >
                          > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
                          > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
                          > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
                          > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
                          > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
                          > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
                          > questions there. They were not always the
                          > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
                          > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
                          > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
                          > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
                          > IRO's, or no IROs.
                          >
                          > I don't know if this has anything to do with
                          > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
                          > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
                          > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
                          > initiations gen
                          > erally, but I don't know what
                          > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
                          > that the longest period of time between the
                          > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
                          > seven years. That was the time between my
                          > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
                          > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
                          >
                          > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
                          > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
                          > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
                          > less time than that (if it's true what they say
                          > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
                          > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
                          > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
                          >
                          > Etznab
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                          > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
                          > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          > Hello Whitemoby and All.
                          >
                          > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
                          >
                          > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
                          >
                          > Scientologists.
                          >
                          > So, you might be okay on those old
                          >
                          > IROs. They do read, track and file info
                          >
                          > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
                          >
                          > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
                          >
                          > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
                          >
                          > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
                          >
                          > the same as others. Everyone dreams
                          >
                          > and has "experiences, " and spills their
                          >
                          > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
                          >
                          > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
                          >
                          > and their bad behaviours.
                          >
                          > I knew Eckists that
                          > embellished their
                          >
                          > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
                          >
                          > asked to speak at major seminars, and
                          >
                          > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
                          >
                          > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
                          >
                          > It was a similar self-promotion as to
                          >
                          > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
                          >
                          > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
                          >
                          > ending cycle to get noticed!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          > whitemoby wrote:
                          >
                          > I turned in my eck membership about
                          >
                          > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
                          >
                          > very faithful to those initiate reports.
                          >
                          > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
                          >
                          > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
                          >
                          > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
                          >
                          > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
                          >
                          > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
                          >
                          > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
                          >
                          > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
                          >
                          > Now here is my worry and question.
                          >
                          > Please someone respond. ---
                          >
                          > I absolutely poured out my blood,
                          >
                          > sweat, and tears in those letters.
                          >
                          > I discussed all manner of private,
                          >
                          > personal, embarrassing matter.
                          >
                          > I bitched about my fellow eckists
                          >
                          > often.
                          >
                          > Now I worry that those letters are
                          >
                          > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
                          >
                          > but I just hate the thought of it.
                          >
                          > I was hoping that maybe someone
                          >
                          > from eck headquarters just burned
                          >
                          > or trashed all those thousands of
                          >
                          > IROs they got each month.
                          > =0
                          > D
                          >
                          > Does anyone know??
                          >
                        • harrisonferrel
                          Why would twitchell lie? Because he obviously couldn t help himself. From what I know he fits the profile of a sociopath. He was a chronic liar, thief and
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 16, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Why would twitchell lie? Because he obviously couldn't help himself. From what I know he fits the profile of a sociopath. He was a chronic liar, thief and cheat with not enough motivation to even understand what he was lying about.


                            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "whitemoby22" <whitemoby22@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hey Rebazar, I think your post just made my day. Big ole smile. - You mention "In My Soul I Am Free", which I never read until recently. In it, Paul says he titled "The Far Country" after a story written by Rudyard Kipling. But Kipling never wrote any kind of anything with that title. Why would PT even bother to lie about this?
                            >
                            > You know, Rebazar, Eckankar, like anything else, has its share of fools. But there are intelligent, thoughtful, sensible people there, as well. You know that. And it is utterly beyond me that some of these continue with the Eckankar parade. I cannot, quite literally, get my mind around it.
                            >
                            > moby
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Etznab!
                            > >  
                            > > Darwin, as the "Mahanta", implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I guess, "initiated" by "Rebazar Tarzs" - announced in the Mystic World in '74 or '75.  I think '74.
                            > >  
                            > > (Not the Rebazar Tarzs stuff. It was like Darwin was suddenly the Mahanta, a word which really means big or the head of a monastary, or maybe a big head.)  
                            > >  
                            > > I don't think that Darwin knew anything at all about Paul's plagiarism and paraphrasing, but he had no problem going along for the ride.  If he had known about all of that stuff, I don't  think that he would have given sentences or paragraphs from out of Paul's books to be put in the ECK Mata Journal as though they were his own fresh quotes, in the late seventies.
                            > >  
                            > > Ironically - Instant Karma! -  that is around the time that he started to find out everything, everything that you and I have found out thanks to interesting discoveries in bookstores and the internet.
                            > >  
                            > > Most "ECKists" did not know about the research of David Lane until the world wide web.
                            > > I didn't have a home computer until the end of the year 2000.  But during the nineties, while I was  doing my own research on "HU" and "ECK" or "EK" and the so-called lineage of "ECK"  Masters, I found some of the books that Paul had plagiarized from, but, stupidly, felt I had to keep it a secret from everybody, including  my wife.
                            > >  
                            > > This is one way in which a cult works.  Could it be a test?  A test of loyalty?  A test of the Law of Silence?  Something like this could shatter the lives of thousands!  Or rather, the delusion of thousands. 
                            > >  
                            > > Then I found David Lane on the internet, and websites and stuff of interest from former ECKists - all fascinating, but especially an interview with Dr. Luis Bluth, who said he helped Paul with the copying from other books because he had those books, most notably, of course, written by Julian Johnson.
                            > >  
                            > > Then came the website and the book by Ford Johnson.
                            > >  
                            > > Then I still kept finding more and more stuff.
                            > >  
                            > > I went through the five stages of grieving.  Prometheus is absolutely right about Harold.
                            > >  
                            > > He wanted to be a Lutheran minister, but saw the chance to turn "ECKANKAR" (I shed a tear for Guru Nanak everytime I use that word) into his very own completely controlled, financially abundant Lutheran ministry.
                            > >  
                            > > At least, the music and the writings were so much more uplifting in the days of Paul and Darwin that there is no comparison.  The old newspaper, The ECK World News, had some intelligent writers. I suspect the best of the writers and the best of the musician/composers are probably gone now. 
                            > >  
                            > > I recently noticed that the main site has done away with its art section.
                            > >  
                            > > What does that tell you?
                            > >  
                            > > Harold is in no hurry to give out initiations, especially if you are under fifty or sixty. Why? Because when you get one, then you are in a hurry to get the next one. He won't give out any past the Eighth, so what will you do when you get your Eighth?
                            > >  
                            > > I would be afraid to find out how many Eighth initiates spend their time looking for that outer confirmation of the Ninth, or think they already have it. 
                            > >  
                            > > It seems like all of this has more to do with vanity than spirituality.
                            > >  
                            > > I recieved the "Seventh" in 2000, and then I bought a home computer!
                            > >  
                            > > It is true - the truth shall set you free!
                            > >  
                            > > The first three books I found regarding "ECKANKAR" in 1969 didn't mention initiations at all, except perhaps in a general way insofar as ancient mystery schools and stuff like that.
                            > >  
                            > > "In My Soul I Am Free" mentions that Paul didn't even want interested people to call themselves "chelas" because he wanted them to identify themselves not as followers, but as potential masters, or at least as spiritual beings who already have everything they need as Soul, a divine spark of God.
                            > >  
                            > > I get this feeling that the change in everything began in the mid to late sixties and had to  do with Gail and money and who knows what else?
                            > >  
                            > > I think  it is very interesting how some of the individuals on this site refer to "chelas" as co-dependents of Harold.
                            > >  
                            > > I have witnessed this kind of silliness since 1973.  I don't know what Darwin thought about it, but Harold sure seems to not only lust for it, but demand it.
                            > >  
                            > > BTW:  If you happen to suddenly get filthy rich and generous toward Corporate Eckankar, that may speed up your next initiation.  
                            > >  
                            > > I left a church, and religion in general, to join "ECKANKAR" - isn't that funny?
                            > >  
                            > > Like Rebazar Tarzs, I mean, Julian Johnson, said, "It may be good to be born in a church, but not to die in one."
                            > >  
                            > > Stop dying -  give yourself  a  break!
                            > >  
                            > > Realbizarre Tarzs
                            > >  
                            > > P.S.  Everything below the Soul Plane is psychological - and what games people play!
                            > >  
                            > > You are Soul whether or not you have this or that.  How will you bring your membership ID card after you leave the body? You know you are going to need it the most then!
                            > >  
                            > > Or, if you become an atheist, not that there is anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld might say, then hey, stop the nonsense and live it up!       
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >   
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >     
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >    
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >        
                            > >  
                            > >             
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >  
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- On Mon, 9/14/09, etznab@ <etznab@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > From: etznab@ <etznab@>
                            > > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                            > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:18 AM
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
                            > > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
                            > > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
                            > > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
                            > > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
                            > > that is, or that it should be, the case.
                            > >
                            > > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
                            > > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
                            > > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
                            > > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
                            > > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
                            > > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
                            > > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
                            > > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
                            > > some of the things in Ford's book and some
                            > > of the other information come out.
                            > >
                            > > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
                            > > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
                            > > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
                            > > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
                            > > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
                            > > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
                            > > questions there. They were not always the
                            > > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
                            > > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
                            > > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
                            > > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
                            > > IRO's, or no IROs.
                            > >
                            > > I don't know if this has anything to do with
                            > > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
                            > > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
                            > > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
                            > > initiations gen
                            > > erally, but I don't know what
                            > > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
                            > > that the longest period of time between the
                            > > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
                            > > seven years. That was the time between my
                            > > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
                            > > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
                            > >
                            > > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
                            > > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
                            > > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
                            > > less time than that (if it's true what they say
                            > > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
                            > > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
                            > > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
                            > >
                            > > Etznab
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@ yahoo.com>
                            > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
                            > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > >
                            > > Hello Whitemoby and All.
                            > >
                            > > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
                            > >
                            > > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
                            > >
                            > > Scientologists.
                            > >
                            > > So, you might be okay on those old
                            > >
                            > > IROs. They do read, track and file info
                            > >
                            > > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
                            > >
                            > > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
                            > >
                            > > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
                            > >
                            > > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
                            > >
                            > > the same as others. Everyone dreams
                            > >
                            > > and has "experiences, " and spills their
                            > >
                            > > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
                            > >
                            > > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
                            > >
                            > > and their bad behaviours.
                            > >
                            > > I knew Eckists that
                            > > embellished their
                            > >
                            > > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
                            > >
                            > > asked to speak at major seminars, and
                            > >
                            > > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
                            > >
                            > > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
                            > >
                            > > It was a similar self-promotion as to
                            > >
                            > > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
                            > >
                            > > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
                            > >
                            > > ending cycle to get noticed!
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            > >
                            > > whitemoby wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I turned in my eck membership about
                            > >
                            > > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
                            > >
                            > > very faithful to those initiate reports.
                            > >
                            > > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
                            > >
                            > > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
                            > >
                            > > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
                            > >
                            > > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
                            > >
                            > > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
                            > >
                            > > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
                            > >
                            > > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
                            > >
                            > > Now here is my worry and question.
                            > >
                            > > Please someone respond. ---
                            > >
                            > > I absolutely poured out my blood,
                            > >
                            > > sweat, and tears in those letters.
                            > >
                            > > I discussed all manner of private,
                            > >
                            > > personal, embarrassing matter.
                            > >
                            > > I bitched about my fellow eckists
                            > >
                            > > often.
                            > >
                            > > Now I worry that those letters are
                            > >
                            > > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
                            > >
                            > > but I just hate the thought of it.
                            > >
                            > > I was hoping that maybe someone
                            > >
                            > > from eck headquarters just burned
                            > >
                            > > or trashed all those thousands of
                            > >
                            > > IROs they got each month.
                            > > =0
                            > > D
                            > >
                            > > Does anyone know??
                            > >
                            >
                          • Rebazar Tarzs
                            I also have the philosophy of  I am not going to pretend to know what I don t know .   I think atheists are closer to the truth than most.   I do not
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 16, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I also have the philosophy of  "I am not going to pretend to know what I don't know".
                               
                              I think atheists are closer to the truth than most.
                               
                              I do not consider myself an atheist, but, you may be right.  Maybe consciousness does not need a God. It certainly does not need a man-made god. Or a man-made religion.
                               
                              I think "Religulous" was one of the best movies of last year.      
                               


                              --- On Wed, 9/16/09, harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                              From: harrisonferrel <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                              To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 8:17 PM

                               
                              Why would twitchell lie? Because he obviously couldn't help himself. From what I know he fits the profile of a sociopath. He was a chronic liar, thief and cheat with not enough motivation to even understand what he was lying about.

                              --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "whitemoby22" <whitemoby22@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hey Rebazar, I think your post just made my day. Big ole smile. - You mention "In My Soul I Am Free", which I never read until recently. In it, Paul says he titled "The Far Country" after a story written by Rudyard Kipling. But Kipling never wrote any kind of anything with that title. Why would PT even bother to lie about this?
                              >
                              > You know, Rebazar, Eckankar, like anything else, has its share of fools. But there are intelligent, thoughtful, sensible people there, as well. You know that. And it is utterly beyond me that some of these continue with the Eckankar parade. I cannot, quite literally, get my mind around it.
                              >
                              > moby
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, Rebazar Tarzs <realbizarretarzs@ > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Etznab!
                              > >  
                              > > Darwin, as the "Mahanta", implied that he was a fourteenth initiate, I guess, "initiated" by "Rebazar Tarzs" - announced in the Mystic World in '74 or '75.  I think '74.
                              > >  
                              > > (Not the Rebazar Tarzs stuff. It was like Darwin was suddenly the Mahanta, a word which really means big or the head of a monastary, or maybe a big head.)  
                              > >  
                              > > I don't think that Darwin knew anything at all about Paul's plagiarism and paraphrasing, but he had no problem going along for the ride.  If he had known about all of that stuff, I don't  think that he would have given sentences or paragraphs from out of Paul's books to be put in the ECK Mata Journal as though they were his own fresh quotes, in the late seventies.
                              > >  
                              > > Ironically - Instant Karma! -  that is around the time that he started to find out everything, everything that you and I have found out thanks to interesting discoveries in bookstores and the internet.
                              > >  
                              > > Most "ECKists" did not know about the research of David Lane until the world wide web.
                              > > I didn't have a home computer until the end of the year 2000.  But during the nineties, while I was  doing my own research on "HU" and "ECK" or "EK" and the so-called lineage of "ECK"  Masters, I found some of the books that Paul had plagiarized from, but, stupidly, felt I had to keep it a secret from everybody, including  my wife.
                              > >  
                              > > This is one way in which a cult works.  Could it be a test?  A test of loyalty?  A test of the Law of Silence?  Something like  this could shatter the lives of thousands!  Or rather, the delusion of thousands. 
                              > >  
                              > > Then I found David Lane on the internet, and websites and stuff of interest from former ECKists - all fascinating, but especially an interview with Dr. Luis Bluth, who said he helped Paul with the copying from other books because he had those books, most notably, of course, written by Julian Johnson.
                              > >  
                              > > Then came the website and the book by Ford Johnson.
                              > >  
                              > > Then I still kept finding more and more stuff.
                              > >  
                              > > I went through the five stages of grieving.  Prometheus is absolutely right about Harold.
                              > >  
                              > > He wanted to be a Lutheran minister, but saw the chance to turn "ECKANKAR" (I shed a tear for Guru Nanak everytime I use that word) into his very own completely controlled, financially abundant Lutheran ministry.
                              > >  
                              > > At least, the music and the writings were so much more uplifting in the days of Paul and Darwin that there is no comparison.  The old newspaper, The ECK World News, had some intelligent writers. I suspect the best of the writers and the best of the musician/composers are probably gone now. 
                              > >  
                              > > I recently noticed that the main site has done away with its art section.
                              > >  
                              > > What does that tell you?
                              > >  
                              > > Harold is in no hurry to give out initiations, especially if you are under fifty or sixty. Why? Because when you get one, then you are in a hurry to get the next one. He won't give out any past the Eighth, so what will you do when you get your Eighth?
                              > >  
                              > > I would be afraid to find out how many Eighth initiates spend their time looking for that outer confirmation of the Ninth, or think they already have it. 
                              > >  
                              > > It seems like all of this has more to do with vanity than spirituality.
                              > >  
                              > > I recieved the "Seventh" in 2000, and then I bought a home computer!
                              > >  
                              > > It is true - the truth shall set you free!
                              > >  
                              > > The first three books I found regarding "ECKANKAR" in 1969 didn't mention initiations at all, except perhaps in a general way insofar as ancient mystery schools and stuff like that.
                              > >  
                              > > "In My Soul I Am Free" mentions that Paul didn't even want interested people to call themselves "chelas" because he wanted them to identify themselves not as followers, but as potential masters, or at least as spiritual beings who already have everything they need as Soul, a divine spark of God.
                              > >  
                              > > I get this feeling that the change in everything began in the mid to late sixties and had to  do with Gail and money and who knows what else?
                              > >  
                              > > I think  it is very interesting how some of the individuals on this site refer to "chelas" as co-dependents of Harold.
                              > >  
                              > > I have witnessed this kind of silliness since 1973.  I don't know what Darwin thought about it, but Harold sure seems to not only lust for it, but demand it.
                              > >  
                              > > BTW:  If you happen to suddenly get filthy rich and generous toward Corporate Eckankar, that may speed up your next initiation.  
                              > >  
                              > > I left a church, and religion in general, to join "ECKANKAR" - isn't that funny?
                              > >  
                              > > Like Rebazar Tarzs, I mean, Julian Johnson, said, "It may be good to be born in a church, but not to die in one."
                              > >  
                              > > Stop dying -  give yourself  a  break!
                              > >  
                              > > Realbizarre Tarzs
                              > >  
                              > > P.S.  Everything below the Soul Plane is psychological - and what games people play!
                              > >  
                              > > You are Soul whether or not you have this or that.  How will you bring your membership ID card after you leave the body? You know you are going to need it the most then!
                              > >  
                              > > Or, if you become an atheist, not that there is anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld might say, then hey, stop the nonsense and live it up!       
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >   
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >     
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >    
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >        
                              > >  
                              > >             
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >  
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- On Mon, 9/14/09, etznab@ <etznab@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From: etznab@ <etznab@>
                              > > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                              > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 1:18 AM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >  
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > What happens if you stop mailing IRO's,
                              > > or don't send anything by mail on the outer?
                              > > I've heard it mentioned here, I believe, that
                              > > it could reflect negatively on your initiations
                              > > (outer initiations) in the future. I don't think
                              > > that is, or that it should be, the case.
                              > >
                              > > Some time after digesting Ford Johnson's
                              > > book, I basically stopped sending IRO's. I
                              > > didn't think that what I wanted to write about
                              > > was exactly what anybody at Eckankar - in
                              > > cluding Harold - wanted to hear. I had, and I
                              > > still do have a number of questions. Besides,
                              > > I feel that instead of writing to Eckankar that
                              > > Eckankar should be writing to me explaining
                              > > some of the things in Ford's book and some
                              > > of the other information come out.
                              > >
                              > > I hesitate to put it in writing what might be
                              > > considered "detractor-talk" , too. At the same
                              > > time, I have not hesitated to write at groups
                              > > like TruthSeeker, E.S.A., A.R.E. & HU-Chat
                              > > (not very much at the latter though, for quite
                              > > some time). I have not hesitated to ask my
                              > > questions there. They were not always the
                              > > most welcome by all readers, though. Even
                              > > clergy. Maybe it would be different sending
                              > > an I.R.O. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they
                              > > "got my number" at headquarters anyway.
                              > > IRO's, or no IROs.
                              > >
                              > > I don't know if this has anything to do with
                              > > the fact I haven't seen an outer initiation for
                              > > nearly ten years. My understanding is that
                              > > Harold has "slowed down" the time between
                              > > initiations gen
                              > > erally, but I don't know what
                              > > that is supposed to mean exactly. I thought
                              > > that the longest period of time between the
                              > > 3rd, 4th and 5th initiations was generally
                              > > seven years. That was the time between my
                              > > 3rd and 4th. Maybe it's different between the
                              > > 4th and 5th. I don't know.
                              > >
                              > > Back in Paul's day a person could go from
                              > > 1 to 5 in seven years easily. And, depending
                              > > on the person, you could go from 1 to 12 in
                              > > less time than that (if it's true what they say
                              > > about Darwin Gross). But hey. Nowadays a
                              > > person can go from 12 to 0 in a year. Or was
                              > > Darwin a 13th, 14th?
                              > >
                              > > Etznab
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_ 973@ yahoo.com>
                              > > To: eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > Sent: Sat, Sep 12, 2009 6:16 pm
                              > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: IRO
                              > >
                              > >  
                              > >
                              > > Hello Whitemoby and All.
                              > >
                              > > Eckankar (HK) isn't quite as bad or,
                              > >
                              > > at least, as paranoid as L. Ron and
                              > >
                              > > Scientologists.
                              > >
                              > > So, you might be okay on those old
                              > >
                              > > IROs. They do read, track and file info
                              > >
                              > > from IROs, and I doubt that anyone's
                              > >
                              > > "file" ever gets deleted. Most all letters,
                              > >
                              > > unless printed or used, do get destroyed.
                              > >
                              > > Also, most IROs sound pretty much the
                              > >
                              > > the same as others. Everyone dreams
                              > >
                              > > and has "experiences, " and spills their
                              > >
                              > > guts... at first. And, almost everyone
                              > >
                              > > pretty much bitches about other Eckists
                              > >
                              > > and their bad behaviours.
                              > >
                              > > I knew Eckists that
                              > > embellished their
                              > >
                              > > IROs in order to get promoted and/or
                              > >
                              > > asked to speak at major seminars, and
                              > >
                              > > to have their dreams/ekperiences printed
                              > >
                              > > or mentioned by Klemp during a talk.
                              > >
                              > > It was a similar self-promotion as to
                              > >
                              > > what Twit used to do... As Above, So Below
                              > >
                              > > or As Below, So Above... a vicious, never
                              > >
                              > > ending cycle to get noticed!
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              > >
                              > > whitemoby wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I turned in my eck membership about
                              > >
                              > > 8 years ago. BUT, back in the day I was
                              > >
                              > > very faithful to those initiate reports.
                              > >
                              > > Each month I wrote up my little letter,
                              > >
                              > > I put my IRO in the corner of the envelope,
                              > >
                              > > and mailed it off to the Mahanta. And
                              > >
                              > > I sincerely believed that the Mahanta
                              > >
                              > > knew about my letter. (I knew I didn't
                              > >
                              > > have to actually mail it for the Mahanta
                              > >
                              > > to read it, but I enjoyed the ritual).
                              > >
                              > > Now here is my worry and question.
                              > >
                              > > Please someone respond. ---
                              > >
                              > > I absolutely poured out my blood,
                              > >
                              > > sweat, and tears in those letters.
                              > >
                              > > I discussed all manner of private,
                              > >
                              > > personal, embarrassing matter.
                              > >
                              > > I bitched about my fellow eckists
                              > >
                              > > often.
                              > >
                              > > Now I worry that those letters are
                              > >
                              > > on file somewhere. I know it's silly,
                              > >
                              > > but I just hate the thought of it.
                              > >
                              > > I was hoping that maybe someone
                              > >
                              > > from eck headquarters just burned
                              > >
                              > > or trashed all those thousands of
                              > >
                              > > IROs they got each month.
                              > > =0
                              > > D
                              > >
                              > > Does anyone know??
                              > >
                              >


                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.