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[SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post that caused all the commotion

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  • Colleen Russell
    This is quite an interesting discussion here. Some buttons are being pushed and some people are interpreting other s communication in ways that I don t
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 6, 2007
      This is quite an interesting discussion here. Some buttons are being
      pushed and some people are interpreting other's communication in ways
      that I don't understand.

      "Summer" seems to be the instigator here and is quite divisive. Is
      Summer presenting her/himself authentically? I don't know.

      Who is being scapegoated here? A scapegoat is someone in the group
      that others project their undesirable (and often unconscious), split-
      off attributes onto.

      I understand your instinct to pull back, Leaf. I see that you were
      unexpectedly criticized. Your original intent, as I see it, was to
      support another.

      My suggestion -- continue to be yourself and to thrive.

      That is the best each of us can do for ourselves after Eckankar, in
      my humble opinion.

      Best to all...
      Colleen


      In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Ingrid,
      >
      > As to whether I've been attacked:
      >
      > That word first came up as an accusation that I was attacking
      Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I had
      meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as well.
      So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the discussion
      at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought that up.
      >
      > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look at some
      of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect, or if
      I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one wants
      to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my comments.
      While some of the following excerpts of posts are more revealing than
      others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
      interesting story.
      >
      > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
      resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers, nazis, or
      whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age stuff
      about unconditional divine love.
      >
      > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
      conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another, as if
      I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I do
      believe in treating others with understanding and compassion, if at
      all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology, so I
      don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
      with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which, as
      I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
      >
      > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically, more in
      agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups. Most
      eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
      defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love. Compassion
      is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is considered
      to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway you
      want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even though
      you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in exactly the
      same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same thing.
      They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just like the
      eckists.
      >
      > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were someone I
      could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been dishonest
      with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
      friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples feathers"
      it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
      rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different or
      have a different opinion
      >
      > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
      rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
      >
      > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
      understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize for any
      of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city was
      rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and having a
      go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a poor
      loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on any of the
      BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people- Colleen
      for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
      when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are simply
      enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others, like
      Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
      >
      > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only using
      Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm the
      worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use people,
      that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed for
      her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying to help
      me see the truth.
      >
      > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes, it's
      funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and Tolerance
      while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because the
      world revolves around them.
      >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
      >
      > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated group
      (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on this
      group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
      discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason for
      being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and the
      reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
      >
      > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really didn't give
      up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through the
      local MN airport naked! ;-)
      >
      > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
      comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation that
      people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to practice
      Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez, what
      gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people posting
      here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought about
      some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists still
      believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
      >
      > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu who
      wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled with ESA,
      she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar group-his
      comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post. I'm
      posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would just keep
      the discussion going over there and probably in another direction. I
      don't care to put myself in another endless/going nowhere "debate."
      But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and appropriate
      replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only expressing
      your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult mentality
      operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion. Compassion is a
      wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude individuals
      a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
      >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
      >
      > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
      complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination machine
      is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here can't
      allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
      credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen and
      Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been maligned.
      So, even others are attacked who say something good about me. This is
      intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
      anyone of....eckankar?
      >
      > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
      from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with him.
      However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past mainly
      because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
      attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
      occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in. Most
      would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first paragraph.
      This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong person to
      get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
      >
      > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the face
      doesn't really make sense to me.
      >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
      >
      > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of anyone who
      has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is, people who
      support me are bad, evil people.
      >
      > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He did a
      lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't matter he
      didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into his own
      likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu is
      generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong with
      that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who is
      right or wrong in an instance.
      >
      > [....}
      >
      > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was all
      about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what it is
      all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who gives the
      appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress. Very
      similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : ) Well,
      good luck!"
      >
      >
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
      >
      > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm just
      acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly vicious.
      I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of a
      rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings in the
      prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals her
      problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah, you're all
      just nice people expressing a different point of view.
      >
      > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
      different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
      attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I
      don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with
      you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
      only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an attack on
      all those who haven't agreed with you?
      >
      > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of her
      recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
      your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
      deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't even want
      your "knight in shiny armor" help??
      >
      > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to my
      rescue! LOL!
      >
      > Here we see the same theme about "white knights" and "rescuing
      damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in shiny
      armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
      referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to claim
      nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
      >
      > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me. I'm
      just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
      pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
      untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new age" guy
      spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
      friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the posts
      above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups, which
      reveals just how much you're all making of this.
      >
      > All this because I wrote this post:
      >
      > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
      struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to her.
      >
      > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way. Alternative
      therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
      treatment for various psychological disorders) are available, as well
      as acupuncture and other approaches.
      >
      > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a hand, if
      you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There are
      some good people in the world who will want to help.
      >
      > Peace and Love,
      >
      > Leaf
      >
      > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that was
      obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have shaken up
      some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
      righteousness.
      >
      > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that important to
      be so intent on smearing others just because they have a different
      way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads the
      foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly intolerant
      you folks are.
      >
      > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over again--
      mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you don't
      like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
      >
      > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
      supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on a
      sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when the
      man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly empty
      of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa was too
      small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an employee
      from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both Lisa and
      the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
      bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the majority
      of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the floor.
      >
      > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded in the
      rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front of
      me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think about
      walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people who
      ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
      cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
      >
      > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally ill
      because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their fellow
      human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're cowards.
      You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
      against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
      beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish, conformist to
      your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
      yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar has. It
      the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've become
      that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous, uncaring
      people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at any who
      don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be considered
      acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you resort to
      character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
      intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
      credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
      >
      > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some of you
      have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you have
      a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've been
      told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations are
      accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting what
      I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you show
      your true colors.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: ctecvie
      > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
      > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
      post that caused all the commotion
      >
      >
      > Leaf,
      >
      > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
      different
      > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to attack
      you.
      > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I don't
      know
      > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with you
      like
      > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
      > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
      attack on
      > all those who haven't agreed with you?
      >
      > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of her
      > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
      > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
      > deserve a public thank you as well?
      >
      > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny armor"
      help??
      >
      > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to my
      > rescue! LOL!
      >
      > Ingrid
      >
      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Paul wrote:
      > >
      > > "Enough already?"
      > >
      > >
      > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why am I
      > posting? This has devolved to the level of people "flaming" me.
      > >
      > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
      > >
      > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't enjoy
      this.
      > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
      > >
      > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand. The more
      you
      > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of absurdity.
      The
      > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more posts
      that
      > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have better
      ways
      > to use my time.
      > >
      > > Leaf
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Paul Olson
      > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
      > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
      > that caused all the commotion
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > H All.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie! I'm going
      > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as the
      video is
      > released......
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Let's move on.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Sword
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > ----------
      > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
      > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
      > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post that
      > caused all the commotion
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I don't know
      > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
      > >
      > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
      previously,
      > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to write the
      most
      > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle, but
      equally
      > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd ruffled some
      > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few days.
      > >
      > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I meant
      > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most pointed
      > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to it.
      > >
      > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without a
      word.
      > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
      appalled.
      > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that I made
      for
      > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
      > >
      > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that started all
      the
      > commotion:
      > >
      > >
      > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
      > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
      her.
      > >
      > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
      > Alternative
      > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
      > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available,
      as
      > well
      > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
      > >
      > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a hand,
      if
      > you
      > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There
      are
      > some
      > > good people in the world who will want to help.
      > >
      > > Peace and Love,
      > >
      > > Leaf
      > >
      > >
      > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the authorities,
      > something must be done!
      > >
      > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the slightest
      > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is who I
      am.
      > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of relating
      to
      > the world to make people happy on some internet discussion group.
      > >
      > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my post. I
      > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that occurred on
      > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was beginning
      all
      > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
      issue, as
      > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
      Summer,
      > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to what I
      see
      > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I get tired
      of
      > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when everyone
      > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do write with
      > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
      > >
      > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to you.
      You
      > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who wrote on
      A.R.E.
      > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS that goes
      on
      > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone else who
      > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing to me
      that
      > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I would get
      > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person (if he
      > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him to be a
      > special person, even if I never responded to the emails) told me
      he
      > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I didn't
      know
      > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as I'm
      > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the bullshit.
      It
      > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated posting
      > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in time. It
      got
      > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
      > >
      > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing completely
      > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember. People
      who
      > trashed everything I ever did.
      > >
      > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly sorry if I
      > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone is
      being
      > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances that
      > warranted it.
      > >
      > > Leaf
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: tygerpurr
      > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
      > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
      > this i suppose
      > >
      > >
      > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the end is
      > really
      > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling insecure? In
      > this case
      > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-minded"
      > and is
      > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of misunderstanding
      > going
      > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to go after
      > Leaf.
      > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have even told
      > him that
      > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it might
      > hurt to
      > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of your
      > comments out
      > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect, nor am
      > I. I
      > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
      > >
      > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is their
      > doing
      > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with emails behind
      > the
      > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places. In
      > fact, I
      > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved, except for
      > one
      > > public reply.
      > >
      > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
      > >
      > > Tygerpurr ; )
      > >
      > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@>
      > wrote:
      > > >
      > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this i
      > suppose
      > >
      > > Just an FYI here.
      > >
      > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
      > >
      > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome, or
      > prejudiced,
      > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses himself in a
      > strong
      > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-minded
      > person.
      > > This pisses off some less secure people.
      > >
      > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get back to the
      > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a waste
      > of time
      > > and effort.
      > >
      > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some RECIPES!
      > >
      > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
      > >
      > > That side is T R U T H !!!
      > >
      > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him, her,
      > whatever.
      > >
      > > Sword
      > >
      > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colleen
      > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
      > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
      > this i
      > > suppose
      > >
      > > Leaf...
      > >
      > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
      > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
      > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
      > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
      > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
      > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
      > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
      > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
      > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
      > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
      > >
      > > Some of the members here in this group feel
      > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
      > > in my opinion.
      > >
      > > Colleen
      > >
      > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
      > >
      > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
      > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
      > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
      > > > words out of context.
      > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
      > > > that never even
      > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
      > > > was probably just
      > > > a
      > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
      > > > could start an
      > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
      > > > I opposed you.
      > > > You
      > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
      > > > someone I could trust.
      > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
      > > > dishonest with me,
      > > > someone
      > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
      > > > friendly with. NOw
      > > > I
      > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
      > > > >
      > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
      > > > feathers" it appears
      > > > that
      > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
      > > > rooster ruffling
      > > > his
      > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
      > > > a different
      > > > > opinion.#####
      > > > >
      > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
      > > > statement "always being
      > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
      > > > being too "nice" to
      > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
      > > > discussion is how Summer
      > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
      > > > all about, if not
      > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Oh my.....
      > > >
      > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
      > > >
      > > > And I've been dishonest?
      > > >
      > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
      > > > bad"?
      > > >
      > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
      > > > dismay.
      > > >
      > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
      > > > in a reasonable
      > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
      > > > carefully, to
      > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
      > > >
      > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
      > > > the name Summer in
      > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
      > > > find a way to
      > > > fault that behavior.
      > > >
      > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
      > > > character
      > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
      > > > predictably, to other
      > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
      > > > communication between
      > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
      > > >
      > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
      > > > x-eckankar groups.
      > > >
      > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
      > > > the basic
      > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
      > > > discussion
      > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
      > > > any of this.
      > > >
      > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
      > > > point? My thinking
      > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
      > > > to appeal to the
      > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
      > > >
      > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
      > > > consideration is
      > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
      > > > box is out of
      > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
      > > > consensus not
      > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
      > > > criticized.
      > > >
      > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
      > > > questioning the
      > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
      > > > long as it doesn't
      > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
      > > > cherished, so
      > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
      > > > tested. Posts are
      > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
      > > > Writing is
      > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
      > > > norms.
      > > >
      > > > Recipes, anyone?
      > > >
      > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
      > > > is one of stark,
      > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
      > > > nuances of
      > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
      > > > careless strokes,
      > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
      > > > And anyone who
      > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
      > > > conventional "wisdom"
      > > > is...maligned.
      > > >
      > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
      > > > Either way, I'll take
      > > > it as a compliment.
      > > >
      > > > Leafeater
      > > >
      > > > -ate the leaf and left!
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > This electronic mail transmission may contain privileged,
      > > confidential and/or proprietary information intended only for
      > the
      > > person(s) named. Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure to
      > > another person is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
      > addressee
      > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the
      > message
      > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to
      > anyone.
      > > In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify
      > the
      > > sender by reply email.
      > > ***************************************************************
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________________
      > >
      >
    • ctecvie
      Leaf, I won t use many words to comment your long-winded post below ... Just let me say that there s no need to bring other ex-eck groups into play - and you
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 6, 2007
        Leaf,

        I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post below ...
        Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck groups
        into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
        attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what happened on
        ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't have
        enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.

        And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious words in
        your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the way you
        accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.

        Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to respond
        further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to leave ET
        instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about how bad
        we are.

        Ingrid

        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Ingrid,
        >
        > As to whether I've been attacked:
        >
        > That word first came up as an accusation that I was attacking
        Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I had
        meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as well.
        So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the discussion
        at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought that up.
        >
        > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look at some
        of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect, or if
        I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one wants
        to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my comments.
        While some of the following excerpts of posts are more revealing than
        others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
        interesting story.
        >
        > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
        resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers, nazis, or
        whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age stuff
        about unconditional divine love.
        >
        > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
        conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another, as if
        I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I do
        believe in treating others with understanding and compassion, if at
        all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology, so I
        don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
        with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which, as
        I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
        >
        > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically, more in
        agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups. Most
        eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
        defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love. Compassion
        is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is considered
        to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway you
        want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even though
        you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in exactly the
        same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same thing.
        They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just like the
        eckists.
        >
        > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were someone I
        could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been dishonest
        with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
        friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples feathers"
        it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
        rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different or
        have a different opinion
        >
        > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
        rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
        >
        > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
        understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize for any
        of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city was
        rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and having a
        go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a poor
        loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on any of the
        BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people- Colleen
        for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
        when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are simply
        enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others, like
        Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
        >
        > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only using
        Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm the
        worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use people,
        that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed for
        her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying to help
        me see the truth.
        >
        > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes, it's
        funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and Tolerance
        while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because the
        world revolves around them.
        >
        >
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
        >
        > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated group
        (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on this
        group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
        discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason for
        being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and the
        reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
        >
        > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really didn't give
        up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through the
        local MN airport naked! ;-)
        >
        > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
        comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation that
        people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to practice
        Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez, what
        gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people posting
        here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought about
        some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists still
        believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
        >
        > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu who
        wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled with ESA,
        she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar group-his
        comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post. I'm
        posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would just keep
        the discussion going over there and probably in another direction. I
        don't care to put myself in another endless/going nowhere "debate."
        But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and appropriate
        replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only expressing
        your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult mentality
        operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion. Compassion is a
        wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude individuals
        a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
        >
        >
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
        >
        > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
        complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination machine
        is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here can't
        allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
        credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen and
        Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been maligned.
        So, even others are attacked who say something good about me. This is
        intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
        anyone of....eckankar?
        >
        > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
        from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with him.
        However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past mainly
        because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
        attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
        occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in. Most
        would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first paragraph.
        This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong person to
        get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
        >
        > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the face
        doesn't really make sense to me.
        >
        >
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
        >
        > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of anyone who
        has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is, people who
        support me are bad, evil people.
        >
        > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He did a
        lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't matter he
        didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into his own
        likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu is
        generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong with
        that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who is
        right or wrong in an instance.
        >
        > [....}
        >
        > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was all
        about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what it is
        all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who gives the
        appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress. Very
        similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : ) Well,
        good luck!"
        >
        >
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
        >
        > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm just
        acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly vicious.
        I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of a
        rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings in the
        prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals her
        problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah, you're all
        just nice people expressing a different point of view.
        >
        > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
        different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
        attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I
        don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with
        you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
        only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an attack on
        all those who haven't agreed with you?
        >
        > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of her
        recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
        your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
        deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't even want
        your "knight in shiny armor" help??
        >
        > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to my
        rescue! LOL!
        >
        > Here we see the same theme about "white knights" and "rescuing
        damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in shiny
        armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
        referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to claim
        nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
        >
        > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me. I'm
        just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
        pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
        untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new age" guy
        spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
        friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the posts
        above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups, which
        reveals just how much you're all making of this.
        >
        > All this because I wrote this post:
        >
        > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
        struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to her.
        >
        > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way. Alternative
        therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
        treatment for various psychological disorders) are available, as well
        as acupuncture and other approaches.
        >
        > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a hand, if
        you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There are
        some good people in the world who will want to help.
        >
        > Peace and Love,
        >
        > Leaf
        >
        > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that was
        obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have shaken up
        some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
        righteousness.
        >
        > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that important to
        be so intent on smearing others just because they have a different
        way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads the
        foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly intolerant
        you folks are.
        >
        > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over again--
        mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you don't
        like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
        >
        > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
        supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on a
        sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when the
        man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly empty
        of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa was too
        small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an employee
        from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both Lisa and
        the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
        bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the majority
        of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the floor.
        >
        > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded in the
        rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front of
        me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think about
        walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people who
        ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
        cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
        >
        > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally ill
        because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their fellow
        human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're cowards.
        You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
        against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
        beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish, conformist to
        your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
        yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar has. It
        the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've become
        that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous, uncaring
        people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at any who
        don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be considered
        acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you resort to
        character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
        intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
        credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
        >
        > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some of you
        have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you have
        a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've been
        told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations are
        accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting what
        I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you show
        your true colors.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: ctecvie
        > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
        > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
        post that caused all the commotion
        >
        >
        > Leaf,
        >
        > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
        different
        > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to attack
        you.
        > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I don't
        know
        > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with you
        like
        > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
        > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
        attack on
        > all those who haven't agreed with you?
        >
        > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of her
        > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
        > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
        > deserve a public thank you as well?
        >
        > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny armor"
        help??
        >
        > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to my
        > rescue! LOL!
        >
        > Ingrid
        >
        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Paul wrote:
        > >
        > > "Enough already?"
        > >
        > >
        > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why am I
        > posting? This has devolved to the level of people "flaming" me.
        > >
        > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
        > >
        > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't enjoy
        this.
        > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
        > >
        > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand. The more
        you
        > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of absurdity.
        The
        > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more posts
        that
        > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have better
        ways
        > to use my time.
        > >
        > > Leaf
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Paul Olson
        > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
        > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
        > that caused all the commotion
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > H All.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie! I'm going
        > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as the
        video is
        > released......
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Let's move on.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Sword
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > ----------
        > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
        > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
        > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post that
        > caused all the commotion
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I don't know
        > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
        > >
        > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
        previously,
        > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to write the
        most
        > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle, but
        equally
        > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd ruffled some
        > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few days.
        > >
        > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I meant
        > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most pointed
        > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to it.
        > >
        > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without a
        word.
        > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
        appalled.
        > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that I made
        for
        > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
        > >
        > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that started all
        the
        > commotion:
        > >
        > >
        > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
        > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
        her.
        > >
        > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
        > Alternative
        > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
        > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available,
        as
        > well
        > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
        > >
        > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a hand,
        if
        > you
        > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There
        are
        > some
        > > good people in the world who will want to help.
        > >
        > > Peace and Love,
        > >
        > > Leaf
        > >
        > >
        > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the authorities,
        > something must be done!
        > >
        > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the slightest
        > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is who I
        am.
        > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of relating
        to
        > the world to make people happy on some internet discussion group.
        > >
        > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my post. I
        > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that occurred on
        > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was beginning
        all
        > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
        issue, as
        > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
        Summer,
        > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to what I
        see
        > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I get tired
        of
        > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when everyone
        > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do write with
        > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
        > >
        > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to you.
        You
        > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who wrote on
        A.R.E.
        > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS that goes
        on
        > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone else who
        > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing to me
        that
        > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I would get
        > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person (if he
        > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him to be a
        > special person, even if I never responded to the emails) told me
        he
        > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I didn't
        know
        > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as I'm
        > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the bullshit.
        It
        > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated posting
        > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in time. It
        got
        > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
        > >
        > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing completely
        > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember. People
        who
        > trashed everything I ever did.
        > >
        > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly sorry if I
        > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone is
        being
        > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances that
        > warranted it.
        > >
        > > Leaf
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: tygerpurr
        > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
        > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
        > this i suppose
        > >
        > >
        > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the end is
        > really
        > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling insecure? In
        > this case
        > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-minded"
        > and is
        > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of misunderstanding
        > going
        > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to go after
        > Leaf.
        > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have even told
        > him that
        > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it might
        > hurt to
        > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of your
        > comments out
        > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect, nor am
        > I. I
        > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
        > >
        > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is their
        > doing
        > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with emails behind
        > the
        > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places. In
        > fact, I
        > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved, except for
        > one
        > > public reply.
        > >
        > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
        > >
        > > Tygerpurr ; )
        > >
        > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@>
        > wrote:
        > > >
        > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this i
        > suppose
        > >
        > > Just an FYI here.
        > >
        > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
        > >
        > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome, or
        > prejudiced,
        > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses himself in a
        > strong
        > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-minded
        > person.
        > > This pisses off some less secure people.
        > >
        > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get back to the
        > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a waste
        > of time
        > > and effort.
        > >
        > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some RECIPES!
        > >
        > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
        > >
        > > That side is T R U T H !!!
        > >
        > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him, her,
        > whatever.
        > >
        > > Sword
        > >
        > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colleen
        > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
        > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
        > this i
        > > suppose
        > >
        > > Leaf...
        > >
        > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
        > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
        > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
        > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
        > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
        > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
        > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
        > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
        > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
        > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
        > >
        > > Some of the members here in this group feel
        > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
        > > in my opinion.
        > >
        > > Colleen
        > >
        > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
        > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
        > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
        > > > words out of context.
        > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
        > > > that never even
        > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
        > > > was probably just
        > > > a
        > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
        > > > could start an
        > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
        > > > I opposed you.
        > > > You
        > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
        > > > someone I could trust.
        > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
        > > > dishonest with me,
        > > > someone
        > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
        > > > friendly with. NOw
        > > > I
        > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
        > > > >
        > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
        > > > feathers" it appears
        > > > that
        > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
        > > > rooster ruffling
        > > > his
        > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
        > > > a different
        > > > > opinion.#####
        > > > >
        > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
        > > > statement "always being
        > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
        > > > being too "nice" to
        > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
        > > > discussion is how Summer
        > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
        > > > all about, if not
        > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Oh my.....
        > > >
        > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
        > > >
        > > > And I've been dishonest?
        > > >
        > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
        > > > bad"?
        > > >
        > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
        > > > dismay.
        > > >
        > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
        > > > in a reasonable
        > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
        > > > carefully, to
        > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
        > > >
        > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
        > > > the name Summer in
        > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
        > > > find a way to
        > > > fault that behavior.
        > > >
        > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
        > > > character
        > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
        > > > predictably, to other
        > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
        > > > communication between
        > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
        > > >
        > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
        > > > x-eckankar groups.
        > > >
        > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
        > > > the basic
        > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
        > > > discussion
        > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
        > > > any of this.
        > > >
        > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
        > > > point? My thinking
        > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
        > > > to appeal to the
        > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
        > > >
        > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
        > > > consideration is
        > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
        > > > box is out of
        > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
        > > > consensus not
        > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
        > > > criticized.
        > > >
        > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
        > > > questioning the
        > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
        > > > long as it doesn't
        > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
        > > > cherished, so
        > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
        > > > tested. Posts are
        > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
        > > > Writing is
        > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
        > > > norms.
        > > >
        > > > Recipes, anyone?
        > > >
        > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
        > > > is one of stark,
        > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
        > > > nuances of
        > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
        > > > careless strokes,
        > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
        > > > And anyone who
        > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
        > > > conventional "wisdom"
        > > > is...maligned.
        > > >
        > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
        > > > Either way, I'll take
        > > > it as a compliment.
        > > >
        > > > Leafeater
        > > >
        > > > -ate the leaf and left!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > This electronic mail transmission may contain privileged,
        > > confidential and/or proprietary information intended only for
        > the
        > > person(s) named. Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure to
        > > another person is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
        > addressee
        > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the
        > message
        > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to
        > anyone.
        > > In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify
        > the
        > > sender by reply email.
        > > ***************************************************************
        > >
        > > __________________________________________________________
        > >
        >
      • Paul Olson
        Hi All, I m still sick of this argument. Why are you all so self protective? Let s stay on the topic of eckankar and why it is a negative influence upon
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 6, 2007
          Hi All,
           
          I'm still sick of this argument.  Why are you all so self protective?
           
          Let's stay on the topic of eckankar and why it is a negative influence upon humanity.
           
          Enough of our personal feelings about who is attacking who.   This is just darn silly and I'm tired of it.
           
          Ego's be damned.
           
          I personally do not support anyone who is supporting this argument, no matter who it is.
           
          Let's get back to doing what this group is supposed to do.
           
          Sword
           


          From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ctecvie
          Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:32 PM
          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post that caused all the commotion

          Leaf,

          I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post below ...
          Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck groups
          into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
          attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what happened on
          ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't have
          enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.

          And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious words in
          your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the way you
          accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.

          Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to respond
          further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to leave ET
          instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about how bad
          we are.

          Ingrid

          --- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@... > wrote:

          >
          > Hello Ingrid,
          >
          > As to whether I've been attacked:
          >
          > That word first
          came up as an accusation that I was attacking
          Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I had
          meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as well.
          So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the discussion
          at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought that up.
          >
          > But since you brought it up again, let's
          take a brief look at some
          of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect, or if
          I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one wants
          to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my comments.
          While some of the following excerpts of posts are more revealing than
          others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
          interesting story.
          >
          > 1) I could give a rat's ass about
          traumatic past lives that
          resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers, nazis, or
          whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age stuff
          about unconditional divine love.
          >
          > Its odd
          that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
          conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another, as if
          I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I do
          believe in treating others with understanding and compassion, if at
          all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology, so I
          don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
          with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which, as
          I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
          >
          > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are,
          ironically, more in
          agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups. Most
          eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
          defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love. Compassion
          is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is considered
          to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway you
          want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even though
          you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in exactly the
          same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same thing.
          They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just like the
          eckists.
          >
          > 2) You have made
          it appear in the past that you were someone I
          could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been dishonest
          with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
          friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples feathers"
          it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
          rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different or
          have a different opinion
          >
          > Wow...according to
          Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
          rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
          >
          > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion
          and
          understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize for any
          of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city was
          rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and having a
          go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a poor
          loss soul (summer.city) . Leaf is about the worst person on any of the
          BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people- Colleen
          for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
          when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are simply
          enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others, like
          Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
          >
          > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only
          using
          Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm the
          worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use people,
          that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed for
          her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying to help
          me see the truth.
          >
          > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game
          Yes, it's
          funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and Tolerance
          while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because the
          world revolves around them.
          >
          >
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/EckankarSu rvivorsAnonymous /message/ 3037
          >
          > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated group
          (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on this
          group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
          discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason for
          being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and the
          reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
          >
          > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak
          into ET? I knew you really didn't give
          up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through the
          local MN airport naked! ;-)
          >
          >
          This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
          comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation that
          people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to practice
          Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez, what
          gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people posting
          here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought about
          some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists still
          believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
          >
          > 6) Hi,
          Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu who
          wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled with ESA,
          she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar group-his
          comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post. I'm
          posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would just keep
          the discussion going over there and probably in another direction. I
          don't care to put myself in another endless/going nowhere "debate."
          But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and appropriate
          replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only expressing
          your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult mentality
          operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion. Compassion is a
          wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude individuals
          a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
          >
          >
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/EckankarSu rvivorsAnonymous /message/ 3031
          >
          > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
          complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination machine
          is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here can't
          allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
          credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen and
          Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been maligned.
          So, even others are attacked who say something good about me. This is
          intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
          anyone of....eckankar?
          >
          > 7)
          Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
          from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with him.
          However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past mainly
          because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
          attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
          occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in. Most
          would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first paragraph.
          This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong person to
          get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
          >
          > I really
          don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the face
          doesn't really make sense to me.
          >
          >
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/EckankarSu rvivorsAnonymous /message/ 3033
          >
          > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of anyone who
          has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is, people who
          support me are bad, evil people.
          >
          > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu
          is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He did a
          lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn' t matter he
          didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into his own
          likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu is
          generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong with
          that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who is
          right or wrong in an instance.
          >
          >
          [....}
          >
          > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it
          was all
          about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what it is
          all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who gives the
          appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress. Very
          similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : ) Well,
          good luck!"
          >
          >
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/EckankarSu rvivorsAnonymous /message/ 3034
          >
          > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm
          just
          acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly vicious.
          I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of a
          rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings in the
          prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals her
          problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah, you're all
          just nice people expressing a different point of view.
          >
          > 9)
          don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
          different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
          attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I
          don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with
          you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
          only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an attack on
          all those who haven't agreed with you?
          >
          > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of her
          recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
          your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
          deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't even want
          your "knight in shiny armor" help??
          >
          > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no
          need to come to my
          rescue! LOL!
          >
          > Here we see the same theme
          about "white knights" and "rescuing
          damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in shiny
          armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
          referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to claim
          nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
          >
          > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on
          against me. I'm
          just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
          pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
          untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new age" guy
          spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
          friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the posts
          above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups, which
          reveals just how much you're all making of this.
          >
          > All this because I wrote this post:
          >
          > I
          remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
          struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to her.
          >
          > There's a
          lot she could do to to find help in some way. Alternative
          therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
          treatment for various psychological disorders) are available, as well
          as acupuncture and other approaches.
          >
          > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give
          you a hand, if
          you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There are
          some good people in the world who will want to help.
          >
          > Peace and Love,
          >
          > Leaf
          >
          > I expressed some
          understanding to another person, and that was
          obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have shaken up
          some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
          righteousness.
          >
          > Is all this
          really worth it to you? Is it really that important to
          be so intent on smearing others just because they have a different
          way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads the
          foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly intolerant
          you folks are.
          >
          > To
          actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over again--
          mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you don't
          like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
          >
          > I remember recently an experience
          my wife Lisa had at the
          supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on a
          sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when the
          man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly empty
          of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa was too
          small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an employee
          from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both Lisa and
          the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
          bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the majority
          of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the floor.
          >
          > Folks, I stop for
          animals in the road, help people stranded in the
          rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front of
          me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think about
          walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people who
          ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
          cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
          >
          > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally ill
          because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their fellow
          human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're cowards.
          You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
          against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
          beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish, conformist to
          your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
          yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar has. It
          the old, all too familiar "us-against- them" mentality. You've become
          that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous, uncaring
          people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at any who
          don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be considered
          acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you resort to
          character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
          intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
          credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
          >
          > By the
          way, according to certain emails I've received, some of you
          have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you have
          a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've been
          told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations are
          accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting what
          I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you show
          your true colors.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: ctecvie
          > To:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
          > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
          > Subject:
          [SPAM][eckankartrut h] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
          post that caused all the commotion
          >
          >
          > Leaf,
          >
          > don't be such
          a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
          different
          > opinions and
          approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to attack
          you.
          > But you seem
          to want to see it that way - so have fun! I don't
          know
          > what's got
          into you - attacking those who don't agree with you
          like
          > that! From
          your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
          > only "thinker outside
          the box"! Can you see that this is an
          attack on
          > all those who
          haven't agreed with you?
          >
          > By the way, I didn't notice that
          summer thanked you in any of her
          > recent posts - maybe she has thanked
          you privately, but wouldn't
          > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady
          in distress" attitude
          > deserve a public thank you as well?
          >
          > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny armor"
          help??
          >
          > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need
          to come to my
          > rescue! LOL!
          >
          > Ingrid
          >
          > ---
          In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Paul wrote:
          > >
          > > "Enough already?"
          > >
          > >
          > >
          More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why am I
          > posting?
          This has devolved to the level of people "flaming" me.
          > >
          > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
          > >
          > > As for me,
          I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't enjoy
          this.
          > This is
          worse than A.R.E. ever was.
          > >
          > > Posting here is like
          walking in emotional quicksand. The more
          you
          > participate, the more
          the dialogue sink to levels of absurdity.
          The
          > thoughtlessness is
          appalling. I may reply to a few more posts
          that
          > warrant some reply,
          but have it your way, folks. I have better
          ways
          > to use my
          time.
          > >
          > > Leaf
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -----
          Original Message -----
          > > From: Paul Olson
          > > To:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
          > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
          > > Subject:
          RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
          > that caused all
          the commotion
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > H All.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Please go see "Across the Universe"... Amazing movie! I'm
          going
          > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as the
          video is
          > released.... ..
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Let's move on.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Sword
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
          >
          ----------
          > > From:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
          > [mailto:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
          > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27
          PM
          > > To:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
          > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post that
          >
          caused all the commotion
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I don't know
          > where
          to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
          > >
          > > It wasn't
          just your initial post I was responding to
          previously,
          > but also a
          few others, as well. You just happened to write the
          most
          > direct
          post to me. The others were a little more subtle, but
          equally
          > as
          obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd ruffled some
          >
          feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few days.
          > >
          > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I meant
          > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most pointed
          > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to it.
          > >
          > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without a
          word.
          > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
          appalled.
          > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that
          I made
          for
          > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the
          archives).
          > >
          > > For those who've forgotten, here's the
          post that started all
          the
          > commotion:
          > >
          > >
          > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
          she's
          > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
          her.
          > >
          > > There's a lot she could do to to find help
          in some way.
          > Alternative
          > > therapies such as high dose omega
          3 from fish oil (a natural
          > > treatment for various psychological
          disorders) are available,
          as
          > well
          > > as acupuncture and
          other approaches.
          > >
          > > Summer, find someone who you
          resonate with to give you a hand,
          if
          > you
          > > haven't
          already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There
          are
          >
          some
          > > good people in the world who will want to help.
          > >
          > > Peace and Love,
          > >
          > > Leaf
          > >
          > >
          > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the
          authorities,
          > something must be done!
          > >
          > > For
          what its worth, I stand by my words, without the slightest
          > regret.
          Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is who I
          am.
          > This is
          how I think. I'm not going to change my way of relating
          to
          > the
          world to make people happy on some internet discussion group.
          > >
          > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my post. I
          > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that occurred on
          > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was beginning
          all
          > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
          issue, as
          > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
          Summer,
          > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to
          what I
          see
          > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I
          get tired
          of
          > the game of pretending certain things weren't said
          when everyone
          > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do
          write with
          > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I
          enjoy.
          > >
          > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was
          a hero to you.
          You
          > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this
          guy who wrote on
          A.R.E.
          > for several years and found ways to answer
          all the BS that goes
          on
          > there. I never really grasped, emotionally,
          that anyone else who
          > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its
          amazing to me
          that
          > there are people who liked the way I stood my
          ground. I would get
          > emails from people begging me to never stop. One
          person (if he
          > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him
          to be a
          > special person, even if I never responded to the emails) told
          me
          he
          > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I
          didn't
          know
          > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far
          as I'm
          > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the bullshit.
          It
          > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated posting
          > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in time. It
          got
          > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
          > >
          > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing completely
          > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember. People
          who
          > trashed everything I ever did.
          > >
          > > So I
          didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly sorry if I
          > hurt your
          feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone is
          being
          > hurt, I
          wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances that
          > warranted
          it.
          > >
          > > Leaf
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: tygerpurr
          > > To:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
          > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
          > > Subject:
          [SPAM][SPAM] [SPAM][eckankart ruth] Re: Sharon will hate
          > this i
          suppose
          > >
          > >
          > > I agree paul. This has gotten
          out of hand and in the end is
          > really
          > > just pointless.
          However, who is really feeling insecure? In
          > this case
          > > it
          is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-minded"
          > and
          is
          > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of misunderstanding
          > going
          > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning
          to go after
          > Leaf.
          > > That is absurd. He knows that in past
          posts, I have even told
          > him that
          > > I considered him to be my
          Hero. YOu can imagine how it might
          > hurt to
          > > then have your
          hero blasting you and taking many of your
          > comments out
          > > of
          context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect, nor am
          > I.
          I
          > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
          > >
          > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is
          their
          > doing
          > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth
          with emails behind
          > the
          > > scene at all. I read and post in
          many different places. In
          > fact, I
          > > have gone out of my way
          to not get others involved, except for
          > one
          > > public reply.
          > >
          > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than
          not.
          > >
          > > Tygerpurr ; )
          > >
          > > --- In
          eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@>
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > RE:
          [SPAM][SPAM] [eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this i
          >
          suppose
          > >
          > > Just an FYI here.
          > >
          > >
          I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
          > >
          > > In
          that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome, or
          >
          prejudiced,
          > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses
          himself in a
          > strong
          > > manor, as he has learned to be very
          strong and fair-minded
          > person.
          > > This pisses off some less
          secure people.
          > >
          > > I'm tired of this conversation. You
          all need to get back to the
          > > issues at hand and to stop attacking
          each other. It's a waste
          > of time
          > > and effort.
          > >
          > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some
          RECIPES!
          > >
          > > We're on the same side here, in the long
          run
          > >
          > > That side is T R U T H !!!
          > >
          > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him, her,
          >
          whatever.
          > >
          > > Sword
          > >
          > > From:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
          > > [mailto:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of colleen
          > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18
          PM
          > > To:
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com
          > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM] [eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
          >
          this i
          > > suppose
          > >
          > > Leaf...
          > >
          > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
          > >
          you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
          > > is quite
          admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
          > > especially when you
          spoke of a compassionate response
          > > to someone who may be
          experiencing difficulties from
          > > his/her experiences in eckankar.
          It's difficult to
          > > understand the group dynamics, especially given
          the
          > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
          > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
          > > to
          him/her, whoever that may be.
          > >
          > > Some of the members
          here in this group feel
          > > differently than others, a healthy sign of
          maturity,
          > > in my opinion.
          > >
          > > Colleen
          > >
          > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > --- In
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, tygerpurr
          > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In
          href="mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com">eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Tian Yue"
          > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking
          my
          > > > words out of context.
          > > > > You started
          this by asking me a question on a post
          > > > that never even
          > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
          > > > was probably just
          > > > a
          > > > > baited
          question to get me to respond to you so you
          > > > could start
          an
          > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as
          if
          > > > I opposed you.
          > > > You
          > > > >
          have made it appear in the past that you were
          > > > someone I could
          trust.
          > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
          > > > dishonest with me,
          > > > someone
          > > > >
          who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
          > > > friendly
          with. NOw
          > > > I
          > > > > see that this was a big
          mistake.
          > > > >
          > > > > As far as supposedly
          "ruffling other peoples
          > > > feathers" it appears
          > > >
          that
          > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big
          red
          > > > rooster ruffling
          > > > his
          > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
          > > > a
          different
          > > > > opinion.#### #
          > > > >
          > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
          > > > statement "always being
          > > > > nice may not be the
          best approach," that I was
          > > > being too "nice" to
          > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
          > > >
          discussion is how Summer
          > > > > should have been treated. What
          else was your post
          > > > all about, if not
          > > > >
          about the way I treated Summer? .........
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Oh my.....
          > > >
          > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
          > > >
          > > > And I've been dishonest?
          > > >
          > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
          > > >
          bad"?
          > > >
          > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my
          head in
          > > > dismay.
          > > >
          > > > All I've
          ever tried to do is respond to each person
          > > > in a
          reasonable
          > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my
          words
          > > > carefully, to
          > > > convey my thoughts
          accurately.
          > > >
          > > > As it stands, I tried to respond
          to a person using
          > > > the name Summer in
          > > > a
          decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
          > > > find a way
          to
          > > > fault that behavior.
          > > >
          > > >
          The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
          > > >
          character
          > > > assasination, and has even spilled over,
          quite
          > > > predictably, to other
          > > > associated
          groups. I imagine the back channel
          > > > communication
          between
          > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
          > > >
          > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
          > > > x-eckankar groups.
          > > >
          > > > At this point,
          I realize the level of discourse and
          > > > the basic
          > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
          > > >
          discussion
          > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to
          resolve
          > > > any of this.
          > > >
          > > > I
          could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
          > > > point? My
          thinking
          > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and
          white
          > > > to appeal to the
          > > > habitues' that
          regularly post here.
          > > >
          > > > Subtle perpectives have
          no friend here. Thoughtful
          > > > consideration is
          > > >
          given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
          > > > box is out
          of
          > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
          > > > consensus not
          > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking
          is
          > > > criticized.
          > > >
          > > > And
          questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
          > > > questioning
          the
          > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
          > > > long as it doesn't
          > > > venture into frightening new
          places. Friendships are
          > > > cherished, so
          > > > long
          as those old, established relationships aren't
          > > > tested. Posts
          are
          > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the
          banality.
          > > > Writing is
          > > > welcome, so long as it
          doesn't challenge accepted
          > > > norms.
          > > >
          > > > Recipes, anyone?
          > > >
          > > > There is only one
          approach that will suffice, and it
          > > > is one of stark,
          > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
          > > >
          nuances of
          > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just
          big,
          > > > careless strokes,
          > > > using the broadest
          old, fat brush that can be found.
          > > > And anyone who
          > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
          > > > conventional
          "wisdom"
          > > > is...maligned.
          > > >
          > > >
          I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
          > > > Either way,
          I'll take
          > > > it as a compliment.
          > > >
          > > > Leafeater
          > > >
          > > > -ate the leaf and
          left!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > This electronic mail
          transmission may contain privileged,
          > > confidential and/or
          proprietary information intended only for
          > the
          > > person(s)
          named. Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure to
          > > another
          person is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
          > addressee
          > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the
          >
          message
          > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message
          to
          > anyone.
          > > In such case, you should destroy this message
          and kindly notify
          > the
          > > sender by reply email.
          > >
          ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******
          > >
          > >
          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > >
          >

        • ctecvie
          Hi Paul, I m all with you on this! :-) So, where do we start? Any suggestions? Be well, Ingrid ... protective? ... influence upon ... is just ... no ...
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 6, 2007
            Hi Paul,

            I'm all with you on this! :-)
            So, where do we start? Any suggestions?

            Be well,
            Ingrid

            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi All,
            >
            > I'm still sick of this argument. Why are you all so self
            protective?
            >
            > Let's stay on the topic of eckankar and why it is a negative
            influence upon
            > humanity.
            >
            > Enough of our personal feelings about who is attacking who. This
            is just
            > darn silly and I'm tired of it.
            >
            > Ego's be damned.
            >
            > I personally do not support anyone who is supporting this argument,
            no
            > matter who it is.
            >
            > Let's get back to doing what this group is supposed to do.
            >
            > Sword
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of ctecvie
            > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:32 PM
            > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
            that
            > caused all the commotion
            >
            >
            >
            > Leaf,
            >
            > I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post below ...
            > Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck groups
            > into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
            > attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what happened
            on
            > ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't have
            > enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.
            >
            > And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious words in
            > your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the way
            you
            > accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.
            >
            > Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to
            respond
            > further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to leave ET
            > instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about how
            bad
            > we are.
            >
            > Ingrid
            >
            > --- In eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Ingrid,
            > >
            > > As to whether I've been attacked:
            > >
            > > That word first came up as an accusation that I was attacking
            > Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I had
            > meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as
            well.
            > So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the discussion
            > at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought that
            up.
            > >
            > > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look at
            some
            > of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect, or
            if
            > I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one wants
            > to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my comments.
            > While some of the following excerpts of posts are more revealing
            than
            > others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
            > interesting story.
            > >
            > > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
            > resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers, nazis, or
            > whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age
            stuff
            > about unconditional divine love.
            > >
            > > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
            > conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another, as
            if
            > I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I do
            > believe in treating others with understanding and compassion, if at
            > all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology, so I
            > don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
            > with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which, as
            > I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
            > >
            > > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically, more in
            > agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups. Most
            > eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
            > defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love.
            Compassion
            > is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is
            considered
            > to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway you
            > want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even
            though
            > you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in exactly
            the
            > same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same thing.
            > They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just like
            the
            > eckists.
            > >
            > > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were someone I
            > could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been dishonest
            > with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
            > friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
            feathers"
            > it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
            > rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different or
            > have a different opinion
            > >
            > > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
            > rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
            > >
            > > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
            > understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize for
            any
            > of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city was
            > rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and having
            a
            > go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a
            poor
            > loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on any of
            the
            > BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people-
            Colleen
            > for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
            > when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are simply
            > enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others, like
            > Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
            > >
            > > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only using
            > Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm the
            > worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use
            people,
            > that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed for
            > her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying to
            help
            > me see the truth.
            > >
            > > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes, it's
            > funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and Tolerance
            > while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because the
            > world revolves around them.
            > >
            > >
            > http://groups.
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
            >
            > yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
            > >
            > > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated group
            > (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on
            this
            > group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
            > discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason for
            > being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and the
            > reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
            > >
            > > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really didn't
            give
            > up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through the
            > local MN airport naked! ;-)
            > >
            > > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
            > comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation that
            > people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to
            practice
            > Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez,
            what
            > gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people posting
            > here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought
            about
            > some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists still
            > believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
            > >
            > > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu who
            > wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled with
            ESA,
            > she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar group-
            his
            > comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post. I'm
            > posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would just
            keep
            > the discussion going over there and probably in another direction.
            I
            > don't care to put myself in another endless/going nowhere "debate."
            > But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and
            appropriate
            > replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only expressing
            > your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult mentality
            > operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion. Compassion is
            a
            > wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude
            individuals
            > a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
            > >
            > >
            > http://groups.
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
            >
            > yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
            > >
            > > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
            > complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination
            machine
            > is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here can't
            > allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
            > credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen and
            > Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been maligned.
            > So, even others are attacked who say something good about me. This
            is
            > intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
            > anyone of....eckankar?
            > >
            > > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
            > from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with him.
            > However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past mainly
            > because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
            > attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
            > occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in. Most
            > would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first paragraph.
            > This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong person
            to
            > get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
            > >
            > > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the
            face
            > doesn't really make sense to me.
            > >
            > >
            > http://groups.
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
            >
            > yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
            > >
            > > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of anyone
            who
            > has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is, people
            who
            > support me are bad, evil people.
            > >
            > > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He did
            a
            > lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't matter he
            > didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into his
            own
            > likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu is
            > generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong
            with
            > that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who is
            > right or wrong in an instance.
            > >
            > > [....}
            > >
            > > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was all
            > about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what it
            is
            > all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who gives
            the
            > appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress. Very
            > similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : ) Well,
            > good luck!"
            > >
            > >
            > http://groups.
            >
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
            >
            > yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
            > >
            > > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm just
            > acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly
            vicious.
            > I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of a
            > rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings in
            the
            > prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals her
            > problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah, you're
            all
            > just nice people expressing a different point of view.
            > >
            > > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
            > different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
            > attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun!
            I
            > don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree
            with
            > you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one
            and
            > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an attack
            on
            > all those who haven't agreed with you?
            > >
            > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of her
            > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
            > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
            > deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't even
            want
            > your "knight in shiny armor" help??
            > >
            > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to my
            > rescue! LOL!
            > >
            > > Here we see the same theme about "white knights" and "rescuing
            > damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in shiny
            > armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
            > referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to
            claim
            > nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
            > >
            > > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me. I'm
            > just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
            > pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
            > untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new age"
            guy
            > spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
            > friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the posts
            > above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups,
            which
            > reveals just how much you're all making of this.
            > >
            > > All this because I wrote this post:
            > >
            > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
            > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to her.
            > >
            > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
            Alternative
            > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
            > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available, as
            well
            > as acupuncture and other approaches.
            > >
            > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a hand, if
            > you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There
            are
            > some good people in the world who will want to help.
            > >
            > > Peace and Love,
            > >
            > > Leaf
            > >
            > > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that was
            > obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have shaken
            up
            > some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
            > righteousness.
            > >
            > > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that important
            to
            > be so intent on smearing others just because they have a different
            > way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads the
            > foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly intolerant
            > you folks are.
            > >
            > > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over again--
            > mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you
            don't
            > like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
            > >
            > > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
            > supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on a
            > sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when the
            > man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly empty
            > of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa was
            too
            > small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an
            employee
            > from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both Lisa
            and
            > the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
            > bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the
            majority
            > of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the
            floor.
            > >
            > > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded in
            the
            > rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front of
            > me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think about
            > walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people who
            > ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
            > cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
            > >
            > > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally ill
            > because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their fellow
            > human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're
            cowards.
            > You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
            > against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
            > beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish, conformist to
            > your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
            > yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar has. It
            > the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've
            become
            > that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous,
            uncaring
            > people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at any
            who
            > don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be
            considered
            > acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you resort
            to
            > character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
            > intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
            > credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
            > >
            > > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some of
            you
            > have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you
            have
            > a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've been
            > told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations are
            > accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting
            what
            > I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you show
            > your true colors.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: ctecvie
            > > To: eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
            > > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
            > post that caused all the commotion
            > >
            > >
            > > Leaf,
            > >
            > > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
            > different
            > > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to attack
            > you.
            > > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I don't
            > know
            > > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with you
            > like
            > > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
            > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
            > attack on
            > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
            > >
            > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of her
            > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
            > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
            > > deserve a public thank you as well?
            > >
            > > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny armor"
            > help??
            > >
            > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to my
            > > rescue! LOL!
            > >
            > > Ingrid
            > >
            > > --- In eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Paul wrote:
            > > >
            > > > "Enough already?"
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why am I
            > > posting? This has devolved to the level of people "flaming" me.
            > > >
            > > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
            > > >
            > > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't enjoy
            > this.
            > > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
            > > >
            > > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand. The more
            > you
            > > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of absurdity.
            > The
            > > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more posts
            > that
            > > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have better
            > ways
            > > to use my time.
            > > >
            > > > Leaf
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: Paul Olson
            > > > To: eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
            > > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
            > > that caused all the commotion
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > H All.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie! I'm going
            > > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as the
            > video is
            > > released......
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Let's move on.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Sword
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
            > > ----------
            > > > From: eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > > [mailto:eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
            > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
            > > > To: eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post that
            > > caused all the commotion
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I don't know
            > > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
            > > >
            > > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
            > previously,
            > > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to write the
            > most
            > > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle, but
            > equally
            > > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd ruffled some
            > > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few days.
            > > >
            > > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I meant
            > > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most pointed
            > > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to it.
            > > >
            > > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without a
            > word.
            > > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
            > appalled.
            > > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that I made
            > for
            > > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
            > > >
            > > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that started all
            > the
            > > commotion:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
            > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
            > her.
            > > >
            > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
            > > Alternative
            > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
            > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available,
            > as
            > > well
            > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
            > > >
            > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a hand,
            > if
            > > you
            > > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There
            > are
            > > some
            > > > good people in the world who will want to help.
            > > >
            > > > Peace and Love,
            > > >
            > > > Leaf
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the authorities,
            > > something must be done!
            > > >
            > > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the slightest
            > > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is who I
            > am.
            > > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of relating
            > to
            > > the world to make people happy on some internet discussion group.
            > > >
            > > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my post. I
            > > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that occurred on
            > > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was beginning
            > all
            > > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
            > issue, as
            > > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
            > Summer,
            > > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to what I
            > see
            > > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I get tired
            > of
            > > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when everyone
            > > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do write with
            > > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
            > > >
            > > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to you.
            > You
            > > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who wrote on
            > A.R.E.
            > > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS that goes
            > on
            > > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone else who
            > > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing to me
            > that
            > > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I would get
            > > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person (if he
            > > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him to be a
            > > special person, even if I never responded to the emails) told me
            > he
            > > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I didn't
            > know
            > > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as I'm
            > > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the bullshit.
            > It
            > > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated posting
            > > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in time. It
            > got
            > > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
            > > >
            > > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing completely
            > > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember. People
            > who
            > > trashed everything I ever did.
            > > >
            > > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly sorry if I
            > > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone is
            > being
            > > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances that
            > > warranted it.
            > > >
            > > > Leaf
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: tygerpurr
            > > > To: eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
            > > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
            > > this i suppose
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the end is
            > > really
            > > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling insecure? In
            > > this case
            > > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-minded"
            > > and is
            > > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of misunderstanding
            > > going
            > > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to go after
            > > Leaf.
            > > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have even told
            > > him that
            > > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it might
            > > hurt to
            > > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of your
            > > comments out
            > > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect, nor am
            > > I. I
            > > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
            > > >
            > > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is their
            > > doing
            > > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with emails behind
            > > the
            > > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places. In
            > > fact, I
            > > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved, except for
            > > one
            > > > public reply.
            > > >
            > > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
            > > >
            > > > Tygerpurr ; )
            > > >
            > > > --- In eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@>
            > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this i
            > > suppose
            > > >
            > > > Just an FYI here.
            > > >
            > > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
            > > >
            > > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome, or
            > > prejudiced,
            > > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses himself in a
            > > strong
            > > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-minded
            > > person.
            > > > This pisses off some less secure people.
            > > >
            > > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get back to the
            > > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a waste
            > > of time
            > > > and effort.
            > > >
            > > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some RECIPES!
            > > >
            > > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
            > > >
            > > > That side is T R U T H !!!
            > > >
            > > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him, her,
            > > whatever.
            > > >
            > > > Sword
            > > >
            > > > From: eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colleen
            > > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
            > > > To: eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
            > > this i
            > > > suppose
            > > >
            > > > Leaf...
            > > >
            > > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
            > > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
            > > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
            > > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
            > > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
            > > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
            > > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
            > > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
            > > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
            > > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
            > > >
            > > > Some of the members here in this group feel
            > > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
            > > > in my opinion.
            > > >
            > > > Colleen
            > > >
            > > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
            > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@ <mailto:eckankartruth%
            40yahoogroups.com>
            > yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
            > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
            > > > > words out of context.
            > > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
            > > > > that never even
            > > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
            > > > > was probably just
            > > > > a
            > > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
            > > > > could start an
            > > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
            > > > > I opposed you.
            > > > > You
            > > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
            > > > > someone I could trust.
            > > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
            > > > > dishonest with me,
            > > > > someone
            > > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
            > > > > friendly with. NOw
            > > > > I
            > > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
            > > > > feathers" it appears
            > > > > that
            > > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
            > > > > rooster ruffling
            > > > > his
            > > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
            > > > > a different
            > > > > > opinion.#####
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
            > > > > statement "always being
            > > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
            > > > > being too "nice" to
            > > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
            > > > > discussion is how Summer
            > > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
            > > > > all about, if not
            > > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Oh my.....
            > > > >
            > > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
            > > > >
            > > > > And I've been dishonest?
            > > > >
            > > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
            > > > > bad"?
            > > > >
            > > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
            > > > > dismay.
            > > > >
            > > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
            > > > > in a reasonable
            > > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
            > > > > carefully, to
            > > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
            > > > >
            > > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
            > > > > the name Summer in
            > > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
            > > > > find a way to
            > > > > fault that behavior.
            > > > >
            > > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
            > > > > character
            > > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
            > > > > predictably, to other
            > > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
            > > > > communication between
            > > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
            > > > >
            > > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
            > > > > x-eckankar groups.
            > > > >
            > > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
            > > > > the basic
            > > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
            > > > > discussion
            > > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
            > > > > any of this.
            > > > >
            > > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
            > > > > point? My thinking
            > > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
            > > > > to appeal to the
            > > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
            > > > >
            > > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
            > > > > consideration is
            > > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
            > > > > box is out of
            > > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
            > > > > consensus not
            > > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
            > > > > criticized.
            > > > >
            > > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
            > > > > questioning the
            > > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
            > > > > long as it doesn't
            > > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
            > > > > cherished, so
            > > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
            > > > > tested. Posts are
            > > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
            > > > > Writing is
            > > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
            > > > > norms.
            > > > >
            > > > > Recipes, anyone?
            > > > >
            > > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
            > > > > is one of stark,
            > > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
            > > > > nuances of
            > > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
            > > > > careless strokes,
            > > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
            > > > > And anyone who
            > > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
            > > > > conventional "wisdom"
            > > > > is...maligned.
            > > > >
            > > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
            > > > > Either way, I'll take
            > > > > it as a compliment.
            > > > >
            > > > > Leafeater
            > > > >
            > > > > -ate the leaf and left!
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > This electronic mail transmission may contain privileged,
            > > > confidential and/or proprietary information intended only for
            > > the
            > > > person(s) named. Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure to
            > > > another person is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
            > > addressee
            > > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the
            > > message
            > > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to
            > > anyone.
            > > > In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify
            > > the
            > > > sender by reply email.
            > > > ***************************************************************
            > > >
            > > > __________________________________________________________
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • tomleafeater
            ... on ... The discussion spilled over to that group, and it refferred and pertained to the discussion here on ET, so it is completely appropriate that I
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 7, 2007
              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@...> wrote:
              >
              > Leaf,
              >
              > I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post below ...
              > Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck groups
              > into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
              > attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what happened
              on
              > ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't have
              > enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.
              >


              The discussion spilled over to that group, and it refferred and
              pertained to the discussion here on ET, so it is completely
              appropriate that I commented about what was posted there. Some of the
              people posting here also post there. The separation between the two
              is a bit illusory, since its only a mouse click away, and delves into
              the same topics. Sharon posts there more than she does on her own
              group. In reality, the discussions often intertwine between the two
              groups. And if I'm being slandered there with the same word for word
              slanders that have occurred on ET, I don't see any reason why that
              should be kept quiet. I'm not living by your rules. Sorry.

              As to your assertion I'm lacking arguments in support of my views,
              the truth is there are so many that I only expressed a fraction of
              them.


              > And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious words in
              > your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the way
              you
              > accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.
              >


              Yes, I finally decided to tell you what I really think, after all the
              terrible comments that have been written over the last few days. Did
              you think I would refrain from answering the slander forever?


              > Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to
              respond
              > further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to leave ET
              > instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about how
              bad
              > we are.
              >

              I have decided to leave ET soon. In fact, I decided that long ago,
              but wanted to drop in once in awhile with a comment or two.
              Obviously, even the most mild of my comments provokes enormous
              controversy on this poarticular site, so I have to agree with you--I
              don't belong here, and if I suddenly started "fitting in" here I'd
              wonder what slippery slope I slid down to make anyone here tolerate
              me. In other words, with my world view being what it is, and the
              world view of most of you being what it is, we shouldn't expect to
              agree on much.

              Leaf


              > Ingrid
              >
              > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Ingrid,
              > >
              > > As to whether I've been attacked:
              > >
              > > That word first came up as an accusation that I was attacking
              > Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I had
              > meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as
              well.
              > So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the discussion
              > at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought that
              up.
              > >
              > > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look at
              some
              > of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect, or
              if
              > I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one wants
              > to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my comments.
              > While some of the following excerpts of posts are more revealing
              than
              > others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
              > interesting story.
              > >
              > > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
              > resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers, nazis, or
              > whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age
              stuff
              > about unconditional divine love.
              > >
              > > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
              > conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another, as
              if
              > I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I do
              > believe in treating others with understanding and compassion, if at
              > all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology, so I
              > don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
              > with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which, as
              > I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
              > >
              > > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically, more in
              > agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups. Most
              > eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
              > defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love.
              Compassion
              > is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is
              considered
              > to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway you
              > want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even
              though
              > you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in exactly
              the
              > same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same thing.
              > They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just like
              the
              > eckists.
              > >
              > > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were someone I
              > could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been dishonest
              > with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
              > friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
              feathers"
              > it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
              > rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different or
              > have a different opinion
              > >
              > > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
              > rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
              > >
              > > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
              > understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize for
              any
              > of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city was
              > rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and having
              a
              > go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a
              poor
              > loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on any of
              the
              > BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people-
              Colleen
              > for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
              > when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are simply
              > enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others, like
              > Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
              > >
              > > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only using
              > Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm the
              > worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use
              people,
              > that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed for
              > her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying to
              help
              > me see the truth.
              > >
              > > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes, it's
              > funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and Tolerance
              > while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because the
              > world revolves around them.
              > >
              > >
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
              > >
              > > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated group
              > (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on
              this
              > group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
              > discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason for
              > being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and the
              > reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
              > >
              > > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really didn't
              give
              > up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through the
              > local MN airport naked! ;-)
              > >
              > > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
              > comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation that
              > people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to
              practice
              > Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez,
              what
              > gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people posting
              > here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought
              about
              > some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists still
              > believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
              > >
              > > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu who
              > wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled with
              ESA,
              > she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar group-
              his
              > comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post. I'm
              > posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would just
              keep
              > the discussion going over there and probably in another direction.
              I
              > don't care to put myself in another endless/going nowhere "debate."
              > But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and
              appropriate
              > replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only expressing
              > your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult mentality
              > operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion. Compassion is
              a
              > wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude
              individuals
              > a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
              > >
              > >
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
              > >
              > > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
              > complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination
              machine
              > is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here can't
              > allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
              > credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen and
              > Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been maligned.
              > So, even others are attacked who say something good about me. This
              is
              > intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
              > anyone of....eckankar?
              > >
              > > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
              > from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with him.
              > However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past mainly
              > because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
              > attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
              > occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in. Most
              > would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first paragraph.
              > This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong person
              to
              > get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
              > >
              > > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the
              face
              > doesn't really make sense to me.
              > >
              > >
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
              > >
              > > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of anyone
              who
              > has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is, people
              who
              > support me are bad, evil people.
              > >
              > > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He did
              a
              > lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't matter he
              > didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into his
              own
              > likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu is
              > generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong
              with
              > that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who is
              > right or wrong in an instance.
              > >
              > > [....}
              > >
              > > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was all
              > about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what it
              is
              > all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who gives
              the
              > appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress. Very
              > similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : ) Well,
              > good luck!"
              > >
              > >
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
              > >
              > > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm just
              > acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly
              vicious.
              > I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of a
              > rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings in
              the
              > prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals her
              > problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah, you're
              all
              > just nice people expressing a different point of view.
              > >
              > > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
              > different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
              > attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun!
              I
              > don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree
              with
              > you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one
              and
              > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an attack
              on
              > all those who haven't agreed with you?
              > >
              > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of her
              > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
              > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
              > deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't even
              want
              > your "knight in shiny armor" help??
              > >
              > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to my
              > rescue! LOL!
              > >
              > > Here we see the same theme about "white knights" and "rescuing
              > damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in shiny
              > armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
              > referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to
              claim
              > nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
              > >
              > > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me. I'm
              > just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
              > pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
              > untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new age"
              guy
              > spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
              > friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the posts
              > above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups,
              which
              > reveals just how much you're all making of this.
              > >
              > > All this because I wrote this post:
              > >
              > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
              > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to her.
              > >
              > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
              Alternative
              > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
              > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available, as
              well
              > as acupuncture and other approaches.
              > >
              > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a hand, if
              > you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There
              are
              > some good people in the world who will want to help.
              > >
              > > Peace and Love,
              > >
              > > Leaf
              > >
              > > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that was
              > obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have shaken
              up
              > some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
              > righteousness.
              > >
              > > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that important
              to
              > be so intent on smearing others just because they have a different
              > way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads the
              > foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly intolerant
              > you folks are.
              > >
              > > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over again--
              > mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you
              don't
              > like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
              > >
              > > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
              > supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on a
              > sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when the
              > man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly empty
              > of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa was
              too
              > small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an
              employee
              > from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both Lisa
              and
              > the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
              > bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the
              majority
              > of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the
              floor.
              > >
              > > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded in
              the
              > rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front of
              > me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think about
              > walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people who
              > ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
              > cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
              > >
              > > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally ill
              > because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their fellow
              > human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're
              cowards.
              > You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
              > against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
              > beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish, conformist to
              > your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
              > yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar has. It
              > the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've
              become
              > that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous,
              uncaring
              > people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at any
              who
              > don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be
              considered
              > acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you resort
              to
              > character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
              > intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
              > credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
              > >
              > > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some of
              you
              > have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you
              have
              > a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've been
              > told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations are
              > accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting
              what
              > I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you show
              > your true colors.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: ctecvie
              > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
              > > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
              > post that caused all the commotion
              > >
              > >
              > > Leaf,
              > >
              > > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
              > different
              > > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to attack
              > you.
              > > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I don't
              > know
              > > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with you
              > like
              > > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
              > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
              > attack on
              > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
              > >
              > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of
              her
              > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
              wouldn't
              > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
              attitude
              > > deserve a public thank you as well?
              > >
              > > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny armor"
              > help??
              > >
              > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to
              my
              > > rescue! LOL!
              > >
              > > Ingrid
              > >
              > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
              wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Paul wrote:
              > > >
              > > > "Enough already?"
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why am I
              > > posting? This has devolved to the level of people "flaming" me.
              > > >
              > > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
              > > >
              > > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't enjoy
              > this.
              > > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
              > > >
              > > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand. The more
              > you
              > > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of absurdity.
              > The
              > > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more posts
              > that
              > > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have better
              > ways
              > > to use my time.
              > > >
              > > > Leaf
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: Paul Olson
              > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
              > > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
              > > that caused all the commotion
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > H All.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie! I'm
              going
              > > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as the
              > video is
              > > released......
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Let's move on.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Sword
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > > ----------
              > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
              > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
              that
              > > caused all the commotion
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I don't
              know
              > > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
              > > >
              > > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
              > previously,
              > > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to write the
              > most
              > > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle, but
              > equally
              > > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd ruffled
              some
              > > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few days.
              > > >
              > > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I
              meant
              > > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most pointed
              > > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to it.
              > > >
              > > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without a
              > word.
              > > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
              > appalled.
              > > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that I made
              > for
              > > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
              > > >
              > > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that started all
              > the
              > > commotion:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
              she's
              > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
              > her.
              > > >
              > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
              > > Alternative
              > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
              > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available,
              > as
              > > well
              > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
              > > >
              > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
              hand,
              > if
              > > you
              > > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There
              > are
              > > some
              > > > good people in the world who will want to help.
              > > >
              > > > Peace and Love,
              > > >
              > > > Leaf
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the authorities,
              > > something must be done!
              > > >
              > > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the
              slightest
              > > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is who I
              > am.
              > > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of relating
              > to
              > > the world to make people happy on some internet discussion
              group.
              > > >
              > > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my post. I
              > > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that occurred on
              > > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was beginning
              > all
              > > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
              > issue, as
              > > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
              > Summer,
              > > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to what I
              > see
              > > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I get
              tired
              > of
              > > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when
              everyone
              > > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do write with
              > > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
              > > >
              > > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to you.
              > You
              > > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who wrote on
              > A.R.E.
              > > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS that goes
              > on
              > > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone else
              who
              > > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing to me
              > that
              > > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I would
              get
              > > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person (if he
              > > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him to be
              a
              > > special person, even if I never responded to the emails) told
              me
              > he
              > > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I didn't
              > know
              > > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as I'm
              > > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the
              bullshit.
              > It
              > > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated
              posting
              > > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in time.
              It
              > got
              > > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
              > > >
              > > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing completely
              > > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember.
              People
              > who
              > > trashed everything I ever did.
              > > >
              > > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly sorry if
              I
              > > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone is
              > being
              > > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances
              that
              > > warranted it.
              > > >
              > > > Leaf
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: tygerpurr
              > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
              > > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will
              hate
              > > this i suppose
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the end is
              > > really
              > > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling insecure? In
              > > this case
              > > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-minded"
              > > and is
              > > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of
              misunderstanding
              > > going
              > > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to go
              after
              > > Leaf.
              > > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have even told
              > > him that
              > > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it might
              > > hurt to
              > > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of your
              > > comments out
              > > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect, nor
              am
              > > I. I
              > > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
              > > >
              > > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is
              their
              > > doing
              > > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with emails
              behind
              > > the
              > > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places. In
              > > fact, I
              > > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved, except
              for
              > > one
              > > > public reply.
              > > >
              > > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
              > > >
              > > > Tygerpurr ; )
              > > >
              > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@>
              > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this i
              > > suppose
              > > >
              > > > Just an FYI here.
              > > >
              > > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
              > > >
              > > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome, or
              > > prejudiced,
              > > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses himself in
              a
              > > strong
              > > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-minded
              > > person.
              > > > This pisses off some less secure people.
              > > >
              > > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get back to
              the
              > > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a waste
              > > of time
              > > > and effort.
              > > >
              > > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some RECIPES!
              > > >
              > > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
              > > >
              > > > That side is T R U T H !!!
              > > >
              > > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him, her,
              > > whatever.
              > > >
              > > > Sword
              > > >
              > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colleen
              > > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
              > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
              > > this i
              > > > suppose
              > > >
              > > > Leaf...
              > > >
              > > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
              > > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
              > > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
              > > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
              > > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
              > > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
              > > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
              > > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
              > > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
              > > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
              > > >
              > > > Some of the members here in this group feel
              > > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
              > > > in my opinion.
              > > >
              > > > Colleen
              > > >
              > > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
              > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
              > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
              > > > > words out of context.
              > > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
              > > > > that never even
              > > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
              > > > > was probably just
              > > > > a
              > > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
              > > > > could start an
              > > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
              > > > > I opposed you.
              > > > > You
              > > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
              > > > > someone I could trust.
              > > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
              > > > > dishonest with me,
              > > > > someone
              > > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
              > > > > friendly with. NOw
              > > > > I
              > > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
              > > > > feathers" it appears
              > > > > that
              > > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
              > > > > rooster ruffling
              > > > > his
              > > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
              > > > > a different
              > > > > > opinion.#####
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
              > > > > statement "always being
              > > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
              > > > > being too "nice" to
              > > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
              > > > > discussion is how Summer
              > > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
              > > > > all about, if not
              > > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Oh my.....
              > > > >
              > > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
              > > > >
              > > > > And I've been dishonest?
              > > > >
              > > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
              > > > > bad"?
              > > > >
              > > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
              > > > > dismay.
              > > > >
              > > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
              > > > > in a reasonable
              > > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
              > > > > carefully, to
              > > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
              > > > >
              > > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
              > > > > the name Summer in
              > > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
              > > > > find a way to
              > > > > fault that behavior.
              > > > >
              > > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
              > > > > character
              > > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
              > > > > predictably, to other
              > > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
              > > > > communication between
              > > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
              > > > >
              > > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
              > > > > x-eckankar groups.
              > > > >
              > > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
              > > > > the basic
              > > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
              > > > > discussion
              > > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
              > > > > any of this.
              > > > >
              > > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
              > > > > point? My thinking
              > > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
              > > > > to appeal to the
              > > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
              > > > >
              > > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
              > > > > consideration is
              > > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
              > > > > box is out of
              > > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
              > > > > consensus not
              > > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
              > > > > criticized.
              > > > >
              > > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
              > > > > questioning the
              > > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
              > > > > long as it doesn't
              > > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
              > > > > cherished, so
              > > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
              > > > > tested. Posts are
              > > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
              > > > > Writing is
              > > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
              > > > > norms.
              > > > >
              > > > > Recipes, anyone?
              > > > >
              > > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
              > > > > is one of stark,
              > > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
              > > > > nuances of
              > > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
              > > > > careless strokes,
              > > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
              > > > > And anyone who
              > > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
              > > > > conventional "wisdom"
              > > > > is...maligned.
              > > > >
              > > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
              > > > > Either way, I'll take
              > > > > it as a compliment.
              > > > >
              > > > > Leafeater
              > > > >
              > > > > -ate the leaf and left!
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > > This electronic mail transmission may contain privileged,
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            • Colleen Russell
              I think it would be a significant loss to ET if Leaf left. I know that I would not be alone in missing his contributions. The boat has been rocked. Leaving
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 9, 2007
                I think it would be a significant loss to ET if Leaf left. I know
                that I would not be alone in missing his contributions.

                The boat has been rocked.

                Leaving Eckankar means leaving the familiarity and in some ways,the
                comfort of the father's home even if that father was abusive, in my
                experience. I mean abusive in the sense that one couldn't separate
                and develop as an adult. This includes using critical thinking
                skills, setting personal limits, making choices based on one's
                individual needs.

                Can someone have a different opinion and still be accepted? Or, if
                someone has an opinion that is different from another's, does it mean
                that the person is "bad". It's easy for a hero to become a scapegoat
                and that's what often happens in groups.

                I think that getting back to a more balanced discussion involves
                tolerating some uncertainties and healthy (respectful) disagreements
                as well as agreements in the group.

                Colleen

                Colleen
                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Leaf,
                > >
                > > I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post below ...
                > > Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck groups
                > > into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
                > > attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what
                happened
                > on
                > > ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't have
                > > enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.
                > >
                >
                >
                > The discussion spilled over to that group, and it refferred and
                > pertained to the discussion here on ET, so it is completely
                > appropriate that I commented about what was posted there. Some of
                the
                > people posting here also post there. The separation between the two
                > is a bit illusory, since its only a mouse click away, and delves
                into
                > the same topics. Sharon posts there more than she does on her own
                > group. In reality, the discussions often intertwine between the two
                > groups. And if I'm being slandered there with the same word for
                word
                > slanders that have occurred on ET, I don't see any reason why that
                > should be kept quiet. I'm not living by your rules. Sorry.
                >
                > As to your assertion I'm lacking arguments in support of my views,
                > the truth is there are so many that I only expressed a fraction of
                > them.
                >
                >
                > > And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious words
                in
                > > your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the way
                > you
                > > accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.
                > >
                >
                >
                > Yes, I finally decided to tell you what I really think, after all
                the
                > terrible comments that have been written over the last few days.
                Did
                > you think I would refrain from answering the slander forever?
                >
                >
                > > Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to
                > respond
                > > further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to leave ET
                > > instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about how
                > bad
                > > we are.
                > >
                >
                > I have decided to leave ET soon. In fact, I decided that long ago,
                > but wanted to drop in once in awhile with a comment or two.
                > Obviously, even the most mild of my comments provokes enormous
                > controversy on this poarticular site, so I have to agree with you--
                I
                > don't belong here, and if I suddenly started "fitting in" here I'd
                > wonder what slippery slope I slid down to make anyone here tolerate
                > me. In other words, with my world view being what it is, and the
                > world view of most of you being what it is, we shouldn't expect to
                > agree on much.
                >
                > Leaf
                >
                >
                > > Ingrid
                > >
                > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello Ingrid,
                > > >
                > > > As to whether I've been attacked:
                > > >
                > > > That word first came up as an accusation that I was attacking
                > > Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I
                had
                > > meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as
                > well.
                > > So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the
                discussion
                > > at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought that
                > up.
                > > >
                > > > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look at
                > some
                > > of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect,
                or
                > if
                > > I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one
                wants
                > > to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my
                comments.
                > > While some of the following excerpts of posts are more revealing
                > than
                > > others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
                > > interesting story.
                > > >
                > > > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
                > > resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers, nazis,
                or
                > > whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age
                > stuff
                > > about unconditional divine love.
                > > >
                > > > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
                > > conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another,
                as
                > if
                > > I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I
                do
                > > believe in treating others with understanding and compassion, if
                at
                > > all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology, so
                I
                > > don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
                > > with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which,
                as
                > > I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
                > > >
                > > > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically, more
                in
                > > agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups. Most
                > > eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
                > > defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love.
                > Compassion
                > > is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is
                > considered
                > > to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway you
                > > want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even
                > though
                > > you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in exactly
                > the
                > > same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same thing.
                > > They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just like
                > the
                > > eckists.
                > > >
                > > > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were someone I
                > > could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been dishonest
                > > with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
                > > friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                > feathers"
                > > it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
                > > rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different
                or
                > > have a different opinion
                > > >
                > > > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
                > > rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
                > > >
                > > > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
                > > understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize for
                > any
                > > of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city was
                > > rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and
                having
                > a
                > > go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a
                > poor
                > > loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on any of
                > the
                > > BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people-
                > Colleen
                > > for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
                > > when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are
                simply
                > > enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others,
                like
                > > Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
                > > >
                > > > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only using
                > > Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm the
                > > worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use
                > people,
                > > that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed
                for
                > > her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying to
                > help
                > > me see the truth.
                > > >
                > > > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes,
                it's
                > > funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and Tolerance
                > > while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because
                the
                > > world revolves around them.
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
                > > >
                > > > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated
                group
                > > (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on
                > this
                > > group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
                > > discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason for
                > > being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and the
                > > reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
                > > >
                > > > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really didn't
                > give
                > > up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through
                the
                > > local MN airport naked! ;-)
                > > >
                > > > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
                > > comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation that
                > > people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to
                > practice
                > > Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez,
                > what
                > > gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people
                posting
                > > here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought
                > about
                > > some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists still
                > > believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
                > > >
                > > > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu
                who
                > > wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled with
                > ESA,
                > > she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar group-
                > his
                > > comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post.
                I'm
                > > posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would just
                > keep
                > > the discussion going over there and probably in another
                direction.
                > I
                > > don't care to put myself in another endless/going
                nowhere "debate."
                > > But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and
                > appropriate
                > > replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only expressing
                > > your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult
                mentality
                > > operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion. Compassion
                is
                > a
                > > wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude
                > individuals
                > > a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
                > > >
                > > > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
                > > complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination
                > machine
                > > is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here can't
                > > allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
                > > credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen
                and
                > > Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been
                maligned.
                > > So, even others are attacked who say something good about me.
                This
                > is
                > > intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
                > > anyone of....eckankar?
                > > >
                > > > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
                > > from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with
                him.
                > > However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past
                mainly
                > > because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
                > > attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
                > > occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in. Most
                > > would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first
                paragraph.
                > > This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong
                person
                > to
                > > get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
                > > >
                > > > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the
                > face
                > > doesn't really make sense to me.
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
                > > >
                > > > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of anyone
                > who
                > > has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is, people
                > who
                > > support me are bad, evil people.
                > > >
                > > > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He
                did
                > a
                > > lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't matter
                he
                > > didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into his
                > own
                > > likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu is
                > > generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong
                > with
                > > that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who is
                > > right or wrong in an instance.
                > > >
                > > > [....}
                > > >
                > > > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was all
                > > about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what
                it
                > is
                > > all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who gives
                > the
                > > appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress. Very
                > > similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : )
                Well,
                > > good luck!"
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
                > > >
                > > > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm just
                > > acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly
                > vicious.
                > > I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of a
                > > rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings in
                > the
                > > prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals
                her
                > > problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah, you're
                > all
                > > just nice people expressing a different point of view.
                > > >
                > > > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                > > different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
                > > attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have
                fun!
                > I
                > > don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree
                > with
                > > you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one
                > and
                > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                attack
                > on
                > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                > > >
                > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of
                her
                > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but wouldn't
                > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress" attitude
                > > deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't even
                > want
                > > your "knight in shiny armor" help??
                > > >
                > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come to
                my
                > > rescue! LOL!
                > > >
                > > > Here we see the same theme about "white knights" and "rescuing
                > > damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in shiny
                > > armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
                > > referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to
                > claim
                > > nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
                > > >
                > > > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me. I'm
                > > just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
                > > pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
                > > untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new age"
                > guy
                > > spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
                > > friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the
                posts
                > > above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups,
                > which
                > > reveals just how much you're all making of this.
                > > >
                > > > All this because I wrote this post:
                > > >
                > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know she's
                > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to her.
                > > >
                > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                > Alternative
                > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
                > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available, as
                > well
                > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                > > >
                > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a hand,
                if
                > > you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence. There
                > are
                > > some good people in the world who will want to help.
                > > >
                > > > Peace and Love,
                > > >
                > > > Leaf
                > > >
                > > > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that was
                > > obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have
                shaken
                > up
                > > some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
                > > righteousness.
                > > >
                > > > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that important
                > to
                > > be so intent on smearing others just because they have a
                different
                > > way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads
                the
                > > foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly
                intolerant
                > > you folks are.
                > > >
                > > > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over again--
                > > mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you
                > don't
                > > like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
                > > >
                > > > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
                > > supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on a
                > > sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when the
                > > man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly
                empty
                > > of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa was
                > too
                > > small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an
                > employee
                > > from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both Lisa
                > and
                > > the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
                > > bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the
                > majority
                > > of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the
                > floor.
                > > >
                > > > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded in
                > the
                > > rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front
                of
                > > me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think about
                > > walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people who
                > > ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
                > > cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
                > > >
                > > > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally ill
                > > because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their
                fellow
                > > human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're
                > cowards.
                > > You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
                > > against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
                > > beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish, conformist
                to
                > > your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
                > > yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar has.
                It
                > > the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've
                > become
                > > that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous,
                > uncaring
                > > people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at any
                > who
                > > don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be
                > considered
                > > acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you resort
                > to
                > > character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
                > > intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
                > > credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
                > > >
                > > > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some of
                > you
                > > have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you
                > have
                > > a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've been
                > > told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations
                are
                > > accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting
                > what
                > > I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you
                show
                > > your true colors.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: ctecvie
                > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
                > > > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and
                my
                > > post that caused all the commotion
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Leaf,
                > > >
                > > > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                > > different
                > > > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to attack
                > > you.
                > > > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I
                don't
                > > know
                > > > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with
                you
                > > like
                > > > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one and
                > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                > > attack on
                > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                > > >
                > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of
                > her
                > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                > wouldn't
                > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                > attitude
                > > > deserve a public thank you as well?
                > > >
                > > > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny
                armor"
                > > help??
                > > >
                > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come
                to
                > my
                > > > rescue! LOL!
                > > >
                > > > Ingrid
                > > >
                > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
                > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Paul wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > "Enough already?"
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why am
                I
                > > > posting? This has devolved to the level of people "flaming"
                me.
                > > > >
                > > > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
                > > > >
                > > > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't enjoy
                > > this.
                > > > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
                > > > >
                > > > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand. The
                more
                > > you
                > > > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of
                absurdity.
                > > The
                > > > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more posts
                > > that
                > > > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have
                better
                > > ways
                > > > to use my time.
                > > > >
                > > > > Leaf
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > From: Paul Olson
                > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
                > > > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
                post
                > > > that caused all the commotion
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > H All.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie! I'm
                > going
                > > > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as the
                > > video is
                > > > released......
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Let's move on.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Sword
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > > > ----------
                > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
                > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
                > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
                > that
                > > > caused all the commotion
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I don't
                > know
                > > > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
                > > > >
                > > > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
                > > previously,
                > > > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to write
                the
                > > most
                > > > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle, but
                > > equally
                > > > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd ruffled
                > some
                > > > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few days.
                > > > >
                > > > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I
                > meant
                > > > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most
                pointed
                > > > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to
                it.
                > > > >
                > > > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without a
                > > word.
                > > > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
                > > appalled.
                > > > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that I
                made
                > > for
                > > > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
                > > > >
                > > > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that started
                all
                > > the
                > > > commotion:
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
                > she's
                > > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out
                to
                > > her.
                > > > >
                > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                > > > Alternative
                > > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
                > > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are
                available,
                > > as
                > > > well
                > > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                > > > >
                > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
                > hand,
                > > if
                > > > you
                > > > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                There
                > > are
                > > > some
                > > > > good people in the world who will want to help.
                > > > >
                > > > > Peace and Love,
                > > > >
                > > > > Leaf
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the authorities,
                > > > something must be done!
                > > > >
                > > > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the
                > slightest
                > > > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is who
                I
                > > am.
                > > > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of
                relating
                > > to
                > > > the world to make people happy on some internet discussion
                > group.
                > > > >
                > > > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my post.
                I
                > > > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that occurred
                on
                > > > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was
                beginning
                > > all
                > > > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
                > > issue, as
                > > > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
                > > Summer,
                > > > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to what
                I
                > > see
                > > > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I get
                > tired
                > > of
                > > > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when
                > everyone
                > > > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do write
                with
                > > > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
                > > > >
                > > > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to
                you.
                > > You
                > > > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who wrote
                on
                > > A.R.E.
                > > > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS that
                goes
                > > on
                > > > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone else
                > who
                > > > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing to me
                > > that
                > > > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I would
                > get
                > > > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person (if
                he
                > > > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him to
                be
                > a
                > > > special person, even if I never responded to the emails) told
                > me
                > > he
                > > > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I
                didn't
                > > know
                > > > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as I'm
                > > > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the
                > bullshit.
                > > It
                > > > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated
                > posting
                > > > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in
                time.
                > It
                > > got
                > > > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
                > > > >
                > > > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing
                completely
                > > > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember.
                > People
                > > who
                > > > trashed everything I ever did.
                > > > >
                > > > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly sorry
                if
                > I
                > > > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone
                is
                > > being
                > > > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances
                > that
                > > > warranted it.
                > > > >
                > > > > Leaf
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > From: tygerpurr
                > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
                > > > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will
                > hate
                > > > this i suppose
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the end is
                > > > really
                > > > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling insecure? In
                > > > this case
                > > > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-
                minded"
                > > > and is
                > > > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of
                > misunderstanding
                > > > going
                > > > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to go
                > after
                > > > Leaf.
                > > > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have even
                told
                > > > him that
                > > > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it
                might
                > > > hurt to
                > > > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of your
                > > > comments out
                > > > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect,
                nor
                > am
                > > > I. I
                > > > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
                > > > >
                > > > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is
                > their
                > > > doing
                > > > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with emails
                > behind
                > > > the
                > > > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places. In
                > > > fact, I
                > > > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved, except
                > for
                > > > one
                > > > > public reply.
                > > > >
                > > > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
                > > > >
                > > > > Tygerpurr ; )
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this i
                > > > suppose
                > > > >
                > > > > Just an FYI here.
                > > > >
                > > > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
                > > > >
                > > > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome, or
                > > > prejudiced,
                > > > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses himself
                in
                > a
                > > > strong
                > > > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-minded
                > > > person.
                > > > > This pisses off some less secure people.
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get back to
                > the
                > > > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a
                waste
                > > > of time
                > > > > and effort.
                > > > >
                > > > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some
                RECIPES!
                > > > >
                > > > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
                > > > >
                > > > > That side is T R U T H !!!
                > > > >
                > > > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him, her,
                > > > whatever.
                > > > >
                > > > > Sword
                > > > >
                > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colleen
                > > > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
                > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will
                hate
                > > > this i
                > > > > suppose
                > > > >
                > > > > Leaf...
                > > > >
                > > > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
                > > > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
                > > > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
                > > > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
                > > > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
                > > > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
                > > > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
                > > > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
                > > > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
                > > > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
                > > > >
                > > > > Some of the members here in this group feel
                > > > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
                > > > > in my opinion.
                > > > >
                > > > > Colleen
                > > > >
                > > > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
                > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
                > > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
                > > > > > words out of context.
                > > > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
                > > > > > that never even
                > > > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
                > > > > > was probably just
                > > > > > a
                > > > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
                > > > > > could start an
                > > > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
                > > > > > I opposed you.
                > > > > > You
                > > > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
                > > > > > someone I could trust.
                > > > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
                > > > > > dishonest with me,
                > > > > > someone
                > > > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
                > > > > > friendly with. NOw
                > > > > > I
                > > > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                > > > > > feathers" it appears
                > > > > > that
                > > > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
                > > > > > rooster ruffling
                > > > > > his
                > > > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
                > > > > > a different
                > > > > > > opinion.#####
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
                > > > > > statement "always being
                > > > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
                > > > > > being too "nice" to
                > > > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
                > > > > > discussion is how Summer
                > > > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
                > > > > > all about, if not
                > > > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Oh my.....
                > > > > >
                > > > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > And I've been dishonest?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
                > > > > > bad"?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
                > > > > > dismay.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
                > > > > > in a reasonable
                > > > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
                > > > > > carefully, to
                > > > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
                > > > > > the name Summer in
                > > > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
                > > > > > find a way to
                > > > > > fault that behavior.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
                > > > > > character
                > > > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
                > > > > > predictably, to other
                > > > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
                > > > > > communication between
                > > > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
                > > > > > x-eckankar groups.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
                > > > > > the basic
                > > > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
                > > > > > discussion
                > > > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
                > > > > > any of this.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
                > > > > > point? My thinking
                > > > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
                > > > > > to appeal to the
                > > > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
                > > > > > consideration is
                > > > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
                > > > > > box is out of
                > > > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
                > > > > > consensus not
                > > > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
                > > > > > criticized.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
                > > > > > questioning the
                > > > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
                > > > > > long as it doesn't
                > > > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
                > > > > > cherished, so
                > > > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
                > > > > > tested. Posts are
                > > > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
                > > > > > Writing is
                > > > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
                > > > > > norms.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Recipes, anyone?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
                > > > > > is one of stark,
                > > > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
                > > > > > nuances of
                > > > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
                > > > > > careless strokes,
                > > > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
                > > > > > And anyone who
                > > > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
                > > > > > conventional "wisdom"
                > > > > > is...maligned.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
                > > > > > Either way, I'll take
                > > > > > it as a compliment.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Leafeater
                > > > > >
                > > > > > -ate the leaf and left!
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > This electronic mail transmission may contain privileged,
                > > > > confidential and/or proprietary information intended only
                for
                > > > the
                > > > > person(s) named. Any use, distribution, copying or
                disclosure
                > to
                > > > > another person is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
                > > > addressee
                > > > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of
                the
                > > > message
                > > > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message
                to
                > > > anyone.
                > > > > In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly
                > notify
                > > > the
                > > > > sender by reply email.
                > > > >
                > ***************************************************************
                > > > >
                > > > > __________________________________________________________
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Colleen Russell
                At the same time, Leaf, if you want to distant yourself from ET, or graduate , I respect your decision. (You can also change your mind in the future).
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 9, 2007
                  At the same time, Leaf, if you want to distant yourself from ET,
                  or "graduate", I respect your decision. (You can also change your
                  mind in the future).

                  Colleen

                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Colleen Russell"
                  <colleenmft@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think it would be a significant loss to ET if Leaf left. I know
                  > that I would not be alone in missing his contributions.
                  >
                  > The boat has been rocked.
                  >
                  > Leaving Eckankar means leaving the familiarity and in some ways,the
                  > comfort of the father's home even if that father was abusive, in my
                  > experience. I mean abusive in the sense that one couldn't separate
                  > and develop as an adult. This includes using critical thinking
                  > skills, setting personal limits, making choices based on one's
                  > individual needs.
                  >
                  > Can someone have a different opinion and still be accepted? Or, if
                  > someone has an opinion that is different from another's, does it
                  mean
                  > that the person is "bad". It's easy for a hero to become a
                  scapegoat
                  > and that's what often happens in groups.
                  >
                  > I think that getting back to a more balanced discussion involves
                  > tolerating some uncertainties and healthy (respectful)
                  disagreements
                  > as well as agreements in the group.
                  >
                  > Colleen
                  >
                  > Colleen
                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Leaf,
                  > > >
                  > > > I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post
                  below ...
                  > > > Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck
                  groups
                  > > > into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
                  > > > attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what
                  > happened
                  > > on
                  > > > ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't
                  have
                  > > > enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The discussion spilled over to that group, and it refferred and
                  > > pertained to the discussion here on ET, so it is completely
                  > > appropriate that I commented about what was posted there. Some of
                  > the
                  > > people posting here also post there. The separation between the
                  two
                  > > is a bit illusory, since its only a mouse click away, and delves
                  > into
                  > > the same topics. Sharon posts there more than she does on her own
                  > > group. In reality, the discussions often intertwine between the
                  two
                  > > groups. And if I'm being slandered there with the same word for
                  > word
                  > > slanders that have occurred on ET, I don't see any reason why
                  that
                  > > should be kept quiet. I'm not living by your rules. Sorry.
                  > >
                  > > As to your assertion I'm lacking arguments in support of my
                  views,
                  > > the truth is there are so many that I only expressed a fraction
                  of
                  > > them.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious words
                  > in
                  > > > your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the
                  way
                  > > you
                  > > > accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yes, I finally decided to tell you what I really think, after all
                  > the
                  > > terrible comments that have been written over the last few days.
                  > Did
                  > > you think I would refrain from answering the slander forever?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to
                  > > respond
                  > > > further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to leave
                  ET
                  > > > instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about
                  how
                  > > bad
                  > > > we are.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I have decided to leave ET soon. In fact, I decided that long
                  ago,
                  > > but wanted to drop in once in awhile with a comment or two.
                  > > Obviously, even the most mild of my comments provokes enormous
                  > > controversy on this poarticular site, so I have to agree with you-
                  -
                  > I
                  > > don't belong here, and if I suddenly started "fitting in" here
                  I'd
                  > > wonder what slippery slope I slid down to make anyone here
                  tolerate
                  > > me. In other words, with my world view being what it is, and the
                  > > world view of most of you being what it is, we shouldn't expect
                  to
                  > > agree on much.
                  > >
                  > > Leaf
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Ingrid
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
                  wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hello Ingrid,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > As to whether I've been attacked:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > That word first came up as an accusation that I was attacking
                  > > > Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I
                  > had
                  > > > meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as
                  > > well.
                  > > > So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the
                  > discussion
                  > > > at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought
                  that
                  > > up.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look at
                  > > some
                  > > > of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect,
                  > or
                  > > if
                  > > > I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one
                  > wants
                  > > > to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my
                  > comments.
                  > > > While some of the following excerpts of posts are more
                  revealing
                  > > than
                  > > > others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
                  > > > interesting story.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
                  > > > resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers,
                  nazis,
                  > or
                  > > > whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age
                  > > stuff
                  > > > about unconditional divine love.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
                  > > > conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another,
                  > as
                  > > if
                  > > > I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I
                  > do
                  > > > believe in treating others with understanding and compassion,
                  if
                  > at
                  > > > all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology,
                  so
                  > I
                  > > > don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
                  > > > with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which,
                  > as
                  > > > I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically, more
                  > in
                  > > > agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups.
                  Most
                  > > > eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
                  > > > defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love.
                  > > Compassion
                  > > > is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is
                  > > considered
                  > > > to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway
                  you
                  > > > want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even
                  > > though
                  > > > you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in
                  exactly
                  > > the
                  > > > same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same
                  thing.
                  > > > They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just
                  like
                  > > the
                  > > > eckists.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were someone
                  I
                  > > > could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been
                  dishonest
                  > > > with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and
                  be
                  > > > friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                  > > feathers"
                  > > > it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big
                  red
                  > > > rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different
                  > or
                  > > > have a different opinion
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
                  > > > rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
                  > > > understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize
                  for
                  > > any
                  > > > of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city
                  was
                  > > > rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and
                  > having
                  > > a
                  > > > go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a
                  > > poor
                  > > > loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on any
                  of
                  > > the
                  > > > BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people-
                  > > Colleen
                  > > > for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
                  > > > when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are
                  > simply
                  > > > enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others,
                  > like
                  > > > Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only
                  using
                  > > > Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm
                  the
                  > > > worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use
                  > > people,
                  > > > that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed
                  > for
                  > > > her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying
                  to
                  > > help
                  > > > me see the truth.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes,
                  > it's
                  > > > funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and
                  Tolerance
                  > > > while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because
                  > the
                  > > > world revolves around them.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated
                  > group
                  > > > (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on
                  > > this
                  > > > group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
                  > > > discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason
                  for
                  > > > being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and
                  the
                  > > > reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really didn't
                  > > give
                  > > > up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through
                  > the
                  > > > local MN airport naked! ;-)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
                  > > > comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation
                  that
                  > > > people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to
                  > > practice
                  > > > Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez,
                  > > what
                  > > > gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people
                  > posting
                  > > > here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought
                  > > about
                  > > > some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists
                  still
                  > > > believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu
                  > who
                  > > > wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled
                  with
                  > > ESA,
                  > > > she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar
                  group-
                  > > his
                  > > > comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post.
                  > I'm
                  > > > posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would
                  just
                  > > keep
                  > > > the discussion going over there and probably in another
                  > direction.
                  > > I
                  > > > don't care to put myself in another endless/going
                  > nowhere "debate."
                  > > > But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and
                  > > appropriate
                  > > > replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only
                  expressing
                  > > > your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult
                  > mentality
                  > > > operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion.
                  Compassion
                  > is
                  > > a
                  > > > wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude
                  > > individuals
                  > > > a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
                  > > > complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination
                  > > machine
                  > > > is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here
                  can't
                  > > > allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
                  > > > credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen
                  > and
                  > > > Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been
                  > maligned.
                  > > > So, even others are attacked who say something good about me.
                  > This
                  > > is
                  > > > intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
                  > > > anyone of....eckankar?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
                  > > > from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with
                  > him.
                  > > > However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past
                  > mainly
                  > > > because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
                  > > > attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
                  > > > occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in.
                  Most
                  > > > would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first
                  > paragraph.
                  > > > This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong
                  > person
                  > > to
                  > > > get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the
                  > > face
                  > > > doesn't really make sense to me.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of
                  anyone
                  > > who
                  > > > has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is,
                  people
                  > > who
                  > > > support me are bad, evil people.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He
                  > did
                  > > a
                  > > > lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't matter
                  > he
                  > > > didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into
                  his
                  > > own
                  > > > likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu
                  is
                  > > > generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong
                  > > with
                  > > > that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who
                  is
                  > > > right or wrong in an instance.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [....}
                  > > > >
                  > > > > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was
                  all
                  > > > about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what
                  > it
                  > > is
                  > > > all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who
                  gives
                  > > the
                  > > > appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress.
                  Very
                  > > > similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : )
                  > Well,
                  > > > good luck!"
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
                  > > > >
                  > > > > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm
                  just
                  > > > acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly
                  > > vicious.
                  > > > I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of
                  a
                  > > > rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings
                  in
                  > > the
                  > > > prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals
                  > her
                  > > > problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah,
                  you're
                  > > all
                  > > > just nice people expressing a different point of view.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                  > > > different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted
                  to
                  > > > attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have
                  > fun!
                  > > I
                  > > > don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't
                  agree
                  > > with
                  > > > you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the
                  one
                  > > and
                  > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                  > attack
                  > > on
                  > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of
                  > her
                  > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                  wouldn't
                  > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                  attitude
                  > > > deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't
                  even
                  > > want
                  > > > your "knight in shiny armor" help??
                  > > > >
                  > > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come
                  to
                  > my
                  > > > rescue! LOL!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Here we see the same theme about "white knights"
                  and "rescuing
                  > > > damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in
                  shiny
                  > > > armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
                  > > > referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to
                  > > claim
                  > > > nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me.
                  I'm
                  > > > just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
                  > > > pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
                  > > > untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new
                  age"
                  > > guy
                  > > > spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
                  > > > friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the
                  > posts
                  > > > above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups,
                  > > which
                  > > > reveals just how much you're all making of this.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > All this because I wrote this post:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
                  she's
                  > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
                  her.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                  > > Alternative
                  > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
                  > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available,
                  as
                  > > well
                  > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
                  hand,
                  > if
                  > > > you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                  There
                  > > are
                  > > > some good people in the world who will want to help.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Peace and Love,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Leaf
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that
                  was
                  > > > obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have
                  > shaken
                  > > up
                  > > > some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
                  > > > righteousness.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that
                  important
                  > > to
                  > > > be so intent on smearing others just because they have a
                  > different
                  > > > way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads
                  > the
                  > > > foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly
                  > intolerant
                  > > > you folks are.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over
                  again--
                  > > > mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you
                  > > don't
                  > > > like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
                  > > > supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on
                  a
                  > > > sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when
                  the
                  > > > man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly
                  > empty
                  > > > of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa
                  was
                  > > too
                  > > > small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an
                  > > employee
                  > > > from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both
                  Lisa
                  > > and
                  > > > the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
                  > > > bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the
                  > > majority
                  > > > of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the
                  > > floor.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded
                  in
                  > > the
                  > > > rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front
                  > of
                  > > > me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think
                  about
                  > > > walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people
                  who
                  > > > ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
                  > > > cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally
                  ill
                  > > > because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their
                  > fellow
                  > > > human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're
                  > > cowards.
                  > > > You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
                  > > > against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
                  > > > beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish,
                  conformist
                  > to
                  > > > your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
                  > > > yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar
                  has.
                  > It
                  > > > the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've
                  > > become
                  > > > that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous,
                  > > uncaring
                  > > > people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at
                  any
                  > > who
                  > > > don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be
                  > > considered
                  > > > acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you
                  resort
                  > > to
                  > > > character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
                  > > > intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
                  > > > credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some
                  of
                  > > you
                  > > > have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you
                  > > have
                  > > > a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've
                  been
                  > > > told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations
                  > are
                  > > > accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting
                  > > what
                  > > > I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you
                  > show
                  > > > your true colors.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > From: ctecvie
                  > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
                  > > > > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and
                  > my
                  > > > post that caused all the commotion
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Leaf,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                  > > > different
                  > > > > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
                  attack
                  > > > you.
                  > > > > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I
                  > don't
                  > > > know
                  > > > > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with
                  > you
                  > > > like
                  > > > > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one
                  and
                  > > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                  > > > attack on
                  > > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any
                  of
                  > > her
                  > > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                  > > wouldn't
                  > > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                  > > attitude
                  > > > > deserve a public thank you as well?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny
                  > armor"
                  > > > help??
                  > > > >
                  > > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come
                  > to
                  > > my
                  > > > > rescue! LOL!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Ingrid
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Paul wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > "Enough already?"
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why
                  am
                  > I
                  > > > > posting? This has devolved to the level of people "flaming"
                  > me.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't
                  enjoy
                  > > > this.
                  > > > > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand. The
                  > more
                  > > > you
                  > > > > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of
                  > absurdity.
                  > > > The
                  > > > > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more
                  posts
                  > > > that
                  > > > > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have
                  > better
                  > > > ways
                  > > > > to use my time.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Leaf
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > > From: Paul Olson
                  > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
                  > > > > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
                  > post
                  > > > > that caused all the commotion
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > H All.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie! I'm
                  > > going
                  > > > > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as
                  the
                  > > > video is
                  > > > > released......
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Let's move on.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Sword
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > > ----------
                  > > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
                  > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
                  > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
                  > > that
                  > > > > caused all the commotion
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I
                  don't
                  > > know
                  > > > > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
                  > > > previously,
                  > > > > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to write
                  > the
                  > > > most
                  > > > > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle,
                  but
                  > > > equally
                  > > > > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd
                  ruffled
                  > > some
                  > > > > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few
                  days.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I
                  > > meant
                  > > > > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most
                  > pointed
                  > > > > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to
                  > it.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without
                  a
                  > > > word.
                  > > > > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
                  > > > appalled.
                  > > > > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that I
                  > made
                  > > > for
                  > > > > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that started
                  > all
                  > > > the
                  > > > > commotion:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
                  > > she's
                  > > > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out
                  > to
                  > > > her.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                  > > > > Alternative
                  > > > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a
                  natural
                  > > > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are
                  > available,
                  > > > as
                  > > > > well
                  > > > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
                  > > hand,
                  > > > if
                  > > > > you
                  > > > > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                  > There
                  > > > are
                  > > > > some
                  > > > > > good people in the world who will want to help.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Peace and Love,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Leaf
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the authorities,
                  > > > > something must be done!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the
                  > > slightest
                  > > > > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is
                  who
                  > I
                  > > > am.
                  > > > > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of
                  > relating
                  > > > to
                  > > > > the world to make people happy on some internet discussion
                  > > group.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my
                  post.
                  > I
                  > > > > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that
                  occurred
                  > on
                  > > > > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was
                  > beginning
                  > > > all
                  > > > > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
                  > > > issue, as
                  > > > > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
                  > > > Summer,
                  > > > > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to
                  what
                  > I
                  > > > see
                  > > > > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I get
                  > > tired
                  > > > of
                  > > > > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when
                  > > everyone
                  > > > > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do write
                  > with
                  > > > > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to
                  > you.
                  > > > You
                  > > > > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who wrote
                  > on
                  > > > A.R.E.
                  > > > > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS that
                  > goes
                  > > > on
                  > > > > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone
                  else
                  > > who
                  > > > > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing to
                  me
                  > > > that
                  > > > > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I
                  would
                  > > get
                  > > > > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person (if
                  > he
                  > > > > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him
                  to
                  > be
                  > > a
                  > > > > special person, even if I never responded to the emails)
                  told
                  > > me
                  > > > he
                  > > > > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I
                  > didn't
                  > > > know
                  > > > > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as
                  I'm
                  > > > > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the
                  > > bullshit.
                  > > > It
                  > > > > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated
                  > > posting
                  > > > > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in
                  > time.
                  > > It
                  > > > got
                  > > > > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing
                  > completely
                  > > > > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember.
                  > > People
                  > > > who
                  > > > > trashed everything I ever did.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly
                  sorry
                  > if
                  > > I
                  > > > > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone
                  > is
                  > > > being
                  > > > > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances
                  > > that
                  > > > > warranted it.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Leaf
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > > From: tygerpurr
                  > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
                  > > > > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon
                  will
                  > > hate
                  > > > > this i suppose
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the end
                  is
                  > > > > really
                  > > > > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling insecure?
                  In
                  > > > > this case
                  > > > > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-
                  > minded"
                  > > > > and is
                  > > > > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of
                  > > misunderstanding
                  > > > > going
                  > > > > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to go
                  > > after
                  > > > > Leaf.
                  > > > > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have even
                  > told
                  > > > > him that
                  > > > > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it
                  > might
                  > > > > hurt to
                  > > > > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of your
                  > > > > comments out
                  > > > > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect,
                  > nor
                  > > am
                  > > > > I. I
                  > > > > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is
                  > > their
                  > > > > doing
                  > > > > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with emails
                  > > behind
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places.
                  In
                  > > > > fact, I
                  > > > > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved,
                  except
                  > > for
                  > > > > one
                  > > > > > public reply.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Tygerpurr ; )
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson"
                  <Paul@>
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this
                  i
                  > > > > suppose
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Just an FYI here.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome,
                  or
                  > > > > prejudiced,
                  > > > > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses himself
                  > in
                  > > a
                  > > > > strong
                  > > > > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-
                  minded
                  > > > > person.
                  > > > > > This pisses off some less secure people.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get back
                  to
                  > > the
                  > > > > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a
                  > waste
                  > > > > of time
                  > > > > > and effort.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some
                  > RECIPES!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > That side is T R U T H !!!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him,
                  her,
                  > > > > whatever.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Sword
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  colleen
                  > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
                  > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will
                  > hate
                  > > > > this i
                  > > > > > suppose
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Leaf...
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
                  > > > > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
                  > > > > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
                  > > > > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
                  > > > > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
                  > > > > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
                  > > > > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
                  > > > > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
                  > > > > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
                  > > > > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Some of the members here in this group feel
                  > > > > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
                  > > > > > in my opinion.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Colleen
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
                  > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
                  > > > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
                  > > > > > > words out of context.
                  > > > > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
                  > > > > > > that never even
                  > > > > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
                  > > > > > > was probably just
                  > > > > > > a
                  > > > > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
                  > > > > > > could start an
                  > > > > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
                  > > > > > > I opposed you.
                  > > > > > > You
                  > > > > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
                  > > > > > > someone I could trust.
                  > > > > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
                  > > > > > > dishonest with me,
                  > > > > > > someone
                  > > > > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
                  > > > > > > friendly with. NOw
                  > > > > > > I
                  > > > > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                  > > > > > > feathers" it appears
                  > > > > > > that
                  > > > > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
                  > > > > > > rooster ruffling
                  > > > > > > his
                  > > > > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
                  > > > > > > a different
                  > > > > > > > opinion.#####
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
                  > > > > > > statement "always being
                  > > > > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
                  > > > > > > being too "nice" to
                  > > > > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
                  > > > > > > discussion is how Summer
                  > > > > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
                  > > > > > > all about, if not
                  > > > > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Oh my.....
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > And I've been dishonest?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
                  > > > > > > bad"?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
                  > > > > > > dismay.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
                  > > > > > > in a reasonable
                  > > > > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
                  > > > > > > carefully, to
                  > > > > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
                  > > > > > > the name Summer in
                  > > > > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
                  > > > > > > find a way to
                  > > > > > > fault that behavior.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
                  > > > > > > character
                  > > > > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
                  > > > > > > predictably, to other
                  > > > > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
                  > > > > > > communication between
                  > > > > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
                  > > > > > > x-eckankar groups.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
                  > > > > > > the basic
                  > > > > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
                  > > > > > > discussion
                  > > > > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
                  > > > > > > any of this.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
                  > > > > > > point? My thinking
                  > > > > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
                  > > > > > > to appeal to the
                  > > > > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
                  > > > > > > consideration is
                  > > > > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
                  > > > > > > box is out of
                  > > > > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
                  > > > > > > consensus not
                  > > > > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
                  > > > > > > criticized.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
                  > > > > > > questioning the
                  > > > > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
                  > > > > > > long as it doesn't
                  > > > > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
                  > > > > > > cherished, so
                  > > > > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
                  > > > > > > tested. Posts are
                  > > > > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
                  > > > > > > Writing is
                  > > > > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
                  > > > > > > norms.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Recipes, anyone?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
                  > > > > > > is one of stark,
                  > > > > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
                  > > > > > > nuances of
                  > > > > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
                  > > > > > > careless strokes,
                  > > > > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
                  > > > > > > And anyone who
                  > > > > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
                  > > > > > > conventional "wisdom"
                  > > > > > > is...maligned.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
                  > > > > > > Either way, I'll take
                  > > > > > > it as a compliment.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Leafeater
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > -ate the leaf and left!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > This electronic mail transmission may contain privileged,
                  > > > > > confidential and/or proprietary information intended only
                  > for
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > person(s) named. Any use, distribution, copying or
                  > disclosure
                  > > to
                  > > > > > another person is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
                  > > > > addressee
                  > > > > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of
                  > the
                  > > > > message
                  > > > > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message
                  > to
                  > > > > anyone.
                  > > > > > In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly
                  > > notify
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > sender by reply email.
                  > > > > >
                  > > ***************************************************************
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > __________________________________________________________
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • ctecvie
                  ... **** I miss the old Leaf. I used to like his contributions very much. But now, as I see it, he has taken out himself. It s a real pity. ... **** Leaf *was*
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 10, 2007
                    --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Colleen Russell"
                    <colleenmft@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think it would be a significant loss to ET if Leaf left. I know
                    > that I would not be alone in missing his contributions.

                    **** I miss the old Leaf. I used to like his contributions very much.
                    But now, as I see it, he has taken out himself. It's a real pity.
                    >
                    > The boat has been rocked.
                    >
                    > Leaving Eckankar means leaving the familiarity and in some ways,the
                    > comfort of the father's home even if that father was abusive, in my
                    > experience. I mean abusive in the sense that one couldn't separate
                    > and develop as an adult. This includes using critical thinking
                    > skills, setting personal limits, making choices based on one's
                    > individual needs.
                    >
                    > Can someone have a different opinion and still be accepted? Or, if
                    > someone has an opinion that is different from another's, does it
                    >mean
                    > that the person is "bad". It's easy for a hero to become a
                    >scapegoat
                    > and that's what often happens in groups.

                    **** Leaf *was* accepted. Everyone just gave their point of view,
                    that's all. Did he accept the differing views?
                    >
                    > I think that getting back to a more balanced discussion involves
                    > tolerating some uncertainties and healthy (respectful)
                    >disagreements
                    > as well as agreements in the group.

                    **** And that's the difference compared to ekkie groups ... :-)
                    Ingrid
                    >
                    > Colleen
                    >
                    > Colleen
                    > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Leaf,
                    > > >
                    > > > I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post
                    below ...
                    > > > Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck
                    groups
                    > > > into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
                    > > > attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what
                    > happened
                    > > on
                    > > > ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't
                    have
                    > > > enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The discussion spilled over to that group, and it refferred and
                    > > pertained to the discussion here on ET, so it is completely
                    > > appropriate that I commented about what was posted there. Some of
                    > the
                    > > people posting here also post there. The separation between the
                    two
                    > > is a bit illusory, since its only a mouse click away, and delves
                    > into
                    > > the same topics. Sharon posts there more than she does on her own
                    > > group. In reality, the discussions often intertwine between the
                    two
                    > > groups. And if I'm being slandered there with the same word for
                    > word
                    > > slanders that have occurred on ET, I don't see any reason why
                    that
                    > > should be kept quiet. I'm not living by your rules. Sorry.
                    > >
                    > > As to your assertion I'm lacking arguments in support of my
                    views,
                    > > the truth is there are so many that I only expressed a fraction
                    of
                    > > them.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious words
                    > in
                    > > > your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the
                    way
                    > > you
                    > > > accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yes, I finally decided to tell you what I really think, after all
                    > the
                    > > terrible comments that have been written over the last few days.
                    > Did
                    > > you think I would refrain from answering the slander forever?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to
                    > > respond
                    > > > further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to leave
                    ET
                    > > > instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about
                    how
                    > > bad
                    > > > we are.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > I have decided to leave ET soon. In fact, I decided that long
                    ago,
                    > > but wanted to drop in once in awhile with a comment or two.
                    > > Obviously, even the most mild of my comments provokes enormous
                    > > controversy on this poarticular site, so I have to agree with you-
                    -
                    > I
                    > > don't belong here, and if I suddenly started "fitting in" here
                    I'd
                    > > wonder what slippery slope I slid down to make anyone here
                    tolerate
                    > > me. In other words, with my world view being what it is, and the
                    > > world view of most of you being what it is, we shouldn't expect
                    to
                    > > agree on much.
                    > >
                    > > Leaf
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Ingrid
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
                    wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello Ingrid,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > As to whether I've been attacked:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That word first came up as an accusation that I was attacking
                    > > > Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I
                    > had
                    > > > meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as
                    > > well.
                    > > > So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the
                    > discussion
                    > > > at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought
                    that
                    > > up.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look at
                    > > some
                    > > > of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect,
                    > or
                    > > if
                    > > > I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one
                    > wants
                    > > > to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my
                    > comments.
                    > > > While some of the following excerpts of posts are more
                    revealing
                    > > than
                    > > > others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
                    > > > interesting story.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
                    > > > resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers,
                    nazis,
                    > or
                    > > > whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age
                    > > stuff
                    > > > about unconditional divine love.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
                    > > > conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another,
                    > as
                    > > if
                    > > > I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I
                    > do
                    > > > believe in treating others with understanding and compassion,
                    if
                    > at
                    > > > all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology,
                    so
                    > I
                    > > > don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
                    > > > with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which,
                    > as
                    > > > I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically, more
                    > in
                    > > > agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups.
                    Most
                    > > > eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
                    > > > defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love.
                    > > Compassion
                    > > > is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is
                    > > considered
                    > > > to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway
                    you
                    > > > want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even
                    > > though
                    > > > you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in
                    exactly
                    > > the
                    > > > same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same
                    thing.
                    > > > They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just
                    like
                    > > the
                    > > > eckists.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were someone
                    I
                    > > > could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been
                    dishonest
                    > > > with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and
                    be
                    > > > friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                    > > feathers"
                    > > > it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big
                    red
                    > > > rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different
                    > or
                    > > > have a different opinion
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
                    > > > rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
                    > > > understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize
                    for
                    > > any
                    > > > of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city
                    was
                    > > > rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and
                    > having
                    > > a
                    > > > go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a
                    > > poor
                    > > > loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on any
                    of
                    > > the
                    > > > BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people-
                    > > Colleen
                    > > > for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
                    > > > when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are
                    > simply
                    > > > enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others,
                    > like
                    > > > Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only
                    using
                    > > > Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm
                    the
                    > > > worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use
                    > > people,
                    > > > that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed
                    > for
                    > > > her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying
                    to
                    > > help
                    > > > me see the truth.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes,
                    > it's
                    > > > funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and
                    Tolerance
                    > > > while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because
                    > the
                    > > > world revolves around them.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated
                    > group
                    > > > (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on
                    > > this
                    > > > group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
                    > > > discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason
                    for
                    > > > being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and
                    the
                    > > > reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really didn't
                    > > give
                    > > > up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through
                    > the
                    > > > local MN airport naked! ;-)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
                    > > > comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation
                    that
                    > > > people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to
                    > > practice
                    > > > Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez,
                    > > what
                    > > > gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people
                    > posting
                    > > > here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought
                    > > about
                    > > > some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists
                    still
                    > > > believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu
                    > who
                    > > > wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled
                    with
                    > > ESA,
                    > > > she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar
                    group-
                    > > his
                    > > > comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post.
                    > I'm
                    > > > posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would
                    just
                    > > keep
                    > > > the discussion going over there and probably in another
                    > direction.
                    > > I
                    > > > don't care to put myself in another endless/going
                    > nowhere "debate."
                    > > > But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and
                    > > appropriate
                    > > > replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only
                    expressing
                    > > > your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult
                    > mentality
                    > > > operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion.
                    Compassion
                    > is
                    > > a
                    > > > wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude
                    > > individuals
                    > > > a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
                    > > > complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination
                    > > machine
                    > > > is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here
                    can't
                    > > > allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
                    > > > credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen
                    > and
                    > > > Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been
                    > maligned.
                    > > > So, even others are attacked who say something good about me.
                    > This
                    > > is
                    > > > intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
                    > > > anyone of....eckankar?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
                    > > > from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with
                    > him.
                    > > > However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past
                    > mainly
                    > > > because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
                    > > > attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
                    > > > occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in.
                    Most
                    > > > would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first
                    > paragraph.
                    > > > This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong
                    > person
                    > > to
                    > > > get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the
                    > > face
                    > > > doesn't really make sense to me.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of
                    anyone
                    > > who
                    > > > has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is,
                    people
                    > > who
                    > > > support me are bad, evil people.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He
                    > did
                    > > a
                    > > > lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't matter
                    > he
                    > > > didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into
                    his
                    > > own
                    > > > likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu
                    is
                    > > > generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong
                    > > with
                    > > > that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who
                    is
                    > > > right or wrong in an instance.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [....}
                    > > > >
                    > > > > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was
                    all
                    > > > about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what
                    > it
                    > > is
                    > > > all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who
                    gives
                    > > the
                    > > > appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress.
                    Very
                    > > > similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : )
                    > Well,
                    > > > good luck!"
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
                    > > > >
                    > > > > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm
                    just
                    > > > acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly
                    > > vicious.
                    > > > I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of
                    a
                    > > > rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings
                    in
                    > > the
                    > > > prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals
                    > her
                    > > > problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah,
                    you're
                    > > all
                    > > > just nice people expressing a different point of view.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                    > > > different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted
                    to
                    > > > attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have
                    > fun!
                    > > I
                    > > > don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't
                    agree
                    > > with
                    > > > you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the
                    one
                    > > and
                    > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                    > attack
                    > > on
                    > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of
                    > her
                    > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                    wouldn't
                    > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                    attitude
                    > > > deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't
                    even
                    > > want
                    > > > your "knight in shiny armor" help??
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come
                    to
                    > my
                    > > > rescue! LOL!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Here we see the same theme about "white knights"
                    and "rescuing
                    > > > damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in
                    shiny
                    > > > armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
                    > > > referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to
                    > > claim
                    > > > nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me.
                    I'm
                    > > > just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
                    > > > pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
                    > > > untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new
                    age"
                    > > guy
                    > > > spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
                    > > > friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the
                    > posts
                    > > > above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups,
                    > > which
                    > > > reveals just how much you're all making of this.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > All this because I wrote this post:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
                    she's
                    > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
                    her.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                    > > Alternative
                    > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
                    > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available,
                    as
                    > > well
                    > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
                    hand,
                    > if
                    > > > you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                    There
                    > > are
                    > > > some good people in the world who will want to help.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Peace and Love,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Leaf
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that
                    was
                    > > > obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have
                    > shaken
                    > > up
                    > > > some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
                    > > > righteousness.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that
                    important
                    > > to
                    > > > be so intent on smearing others just because they have a
                    > different
                    > > > way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads
                    > the
                    > > > foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly
                    > intolerant
                    > > > you folks are.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over
                    again--
                    > > > mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you
                    > > don't
                    > > > like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
                    > > > supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on
                    a
                    > > > sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when
                    the
                    > > > man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly
                    > empty
                    > > > of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa
                    was
                    > > too
                    > > > small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an
                    > > employee
                    > > > from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both
                    Lisa
                    > > and
                    > > > the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
                    > > > bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the
                    > > majority
                    > > > of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the
                    > > floor.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded
                    in
                    > > the
                    > > > rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front
                    > of
                    > > > me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think
                    about
                    > > > walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people
                    who
                    > > > ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
                    > > > cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally
                    ill
                    > > > because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their
                    > fellow
                    > > > human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're
                    > > cowards.
                    > > > You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
                    > > > against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
                    > > > beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish,
                    conformist
                    > to
                    > > > your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
                    > > > yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar
                    has.
                    > It
                    > > > the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've
                    > > become
                    > > > that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous,
                    > > uncaring
                    > > > people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at
                    any
                    > > who
                    > > > don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be
                    > > considered
                    > > > acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you
                    resort
                    > > to
                    > > > character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
                    > > > intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
                    > > > credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some
                    of
                    > > you
                    > > > have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you
                    > > have
                    > > > a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've
                    been
                    > > > told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations
                    > are
                    > > > accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting
                    > > what
                    > > > I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you
                    > show
                    > > > your true colors.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > From: ctecvie
                    > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
                    > > > > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and
                    > my
                    > > > post that caused all the commotion
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Leaf,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                    > > > different
                    > > > > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
                    attack
                    > > > you.
                    > > > > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I
                    > don't
                    > > > know
                    > > > > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with
                    > you
                    > > > like
                    > > > > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one
                    and
                    > > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                    > > > attack on
                    > > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any
                    of
                    > > her
                    > > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                    > > wouldn't
                    > > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                    > > attitude
                    > > > > deserve a public thank you as well?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny
                    > armor"
                    > > > help??
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come
                    > to
                    > > my
                    > > > > rescue! LOL!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ingrid
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Paul wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "Enough already?"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why
                    am
                    > I
                    > > > > posting? This has devolved to the level of people "flaming"
                    > me.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't
                    enjoy
                    > > > this.
                    > > > > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand. The
                    > more
                    > > > you
                    > > > > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of
                    > absurdity.
                    > > > The
                    > > > > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more
                    posts
                    > > > that
                    > > > > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have
                    > better
                    > > > ways
                    > > > > to use my time.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Leaf
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > From: Paul Olson
                    > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
                    > > > > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
                    > post
                    > > > > that caused all the commotion
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > H All.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie! I'm
                    > > going
                    > > > > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as
                    the
                    > > > video is
                    > > > > released......
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Let's move on.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Sword
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    > > > > ----------
                    > > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
                    > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
                    > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
                    > > that
                    > > > > caused all the commotion
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I
                    don't
                    > > know
                    > > > > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
                    > > > previously,
                    > > > > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to write
                    > the
                    > > > most
                    > > > > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle,
                    but
                    > > > equally
                    > > > > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd
                    ruffled
                    > > some
                    > > > > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few
                    days.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I
                    > > meant
                    > > > > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most
                    > pointed
                    > > > > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to
                    > it.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without
                    a
                    > > > word.
                    > > > > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
                    > > > appalled.
                    > > > > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that I
                    > made
                    > > > for
                    > > > > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that started
                    > all
                    > > > the
                    > > > > commotion:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
                    > > she's
                    > > > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out
                    > to
                    > > > her.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                    > > > > Alternative
                    > > > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a
                    natural
                    > > > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are
                    > available,
                    > > > as
                    > > > > well
                    > > > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
                    > > hand,
                    > > > if
                    > > > > you
                    > > > > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                    > There
                    > > > are
                    > > > > some
                    > > > > > good people in the world who will want to help.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Peace and Love,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Leaf
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the authorities,
                    > > > > something must be done!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the
                    > > slightest
                    > > > > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is
                    who
                    > I
                    > > > am.
                    > > > > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of
                    > relating
                    > > > to
                    > > > > the world to make people happy on some internet discussion
                    > > group.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my
                    post.
                    > I
                    > > > > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that
                    occurred
                    > on
                    > > > > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was
                    > beginning
                    > > > all
                    > > > > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
                    > > > issue, as
                    > > > > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
                    > > > Summer,
                    > > > > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to
                    what
                    > I
                    > > > see
                    > > > > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I get
                    > > tired
                    > > > of
                    > > > > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when
                    > > everyone
                    > > > > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do write
                    > with
                    > > > > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to
                    > you.
                    > > > You
                    > > > > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who wrote
                    > on
                    > > > A.R.E.
                    > > > > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS that
                    > goes
                    > > > on
                    > > > > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone
                    else
                    > > who
                    > > > > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing to
                    me
                    > > > that
                    > > > > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I
                    would
                    > > get
                    > > > > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person (if
                    > he
                    > > > > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him
                    to
                    > be
                    > > a
                    > > > > special person, even if I never responded to the emails)
                    told
                    > > me
                    > > > he
                    > > > > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I
                    > didn't
                    > > > know
                    > > > > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as
                    I'm
                    > > > > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the
                    > > bullshit.
                    > > > It
                    > > > > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated
                    > > posting
                    > > > > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in
                    > time.
                    > > It
                    > > > got
                    > > > > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing
                    > completely
                    > > > > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember.
                    > > People
                    > > > who
                    > > > > trashed everything I ever did.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly
                    sorry
                    > if
                    > > I
                    > > > > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone
                    > is
                    > > > being
                    > > > > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances
                    > > that
                    > > > > warranted it.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Leaf
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > From: tygerpurr
                    > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
                    > > > > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon
                    will
                    > > hate
                    > > > > this i suppose
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the end
                    is
                    > > > > really
                    > > > > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling insecure?
                    In
                    > > > > this case
                    > > > > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-
                    > minded"
                    > > > > and is
                    > > > > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of
                    > > misunderstanding
                    > > > > going
                    > > > > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to go
                    > > after
                    > > > > Leaf.
                    > > > > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have even
                    > told
                    > > > > him that
                    > > > > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it
                    > might
                    > > > > hurt to
                    > > > > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of your
                    > > > > comments out
                    > > > > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect,
                    > nor
                    > > am
                    > > > > I. I
                    > > > > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is
                    > > their
                    > > > > doing
                    > > > > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with emails
                    > > behind
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places.
                    In
                    > > > > fact, I
                    > > > > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved,
                    except
                    > > for
                    > > > > one
                    > > > > > public reply.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Tygerpurr ; )
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson"
                    <Paul@>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this
                    i
                    > > > > suppose
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Just an FYI here.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome,
                    or
                    > > > > prejudiced,
                    > > > > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses himself
                    > in
                    > > a
                    > > > > strong
                    > > > > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-
                    minded
                    > > > > person.
                    > > > > > This pisses off some less secure people.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get back
                    to
                    > > the
                    > > > > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a
                    > waste
                    > > > > of time
                    > > > > > and effort.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some
                    > RECIPES!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > That side is T R U T H !!!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him,
                    her,
                    > > > > whatever.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Sword
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    colleen
                    > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
                    > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will
                    > hate
                    > > > > this i
                    > > > > > suppose
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Leaf...
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
                    > > > > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
                    > > > > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
                    > > > > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
                    > > > > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
                    > > > > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
                    > > > > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
                    > > > > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
                    > > > > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
                    > > > > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Some of the members here in this group feel
                    > > > > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
                    > > > > > in my opinion.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Colleen
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
                    > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
                    > > > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
                    > > > > > > words out of context.
                    > > > > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
                    > > > > > > that never even
                    > > > > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
                    > > > > > > was probably just
                    > > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
                    > > > > > > could start an
                    > > > > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
                    > > > > > > I opposed you.
                    > > > > > > You
                    > > > > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
                    > > > > > > someone I could trust.
                    > > > > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
                    > > > > > > dishonest with me,
                    > > > > > > someone
                    > > > > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
                    > > > > > > friendly with. NOw
                    > > > > > > I
                    > > > > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                    > > > > > > feathers" it appears
                    > > > > > > that
                    > > > > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
                    > > > > > > rooster ruffling
                    > > > > > > his
                    > > > > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
                    > > > > > > a different
                    > > > > > > > opinion.#####
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
                    > > > > > > statement "always being
                    > > > > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
                    > > > > > > being too "nice" to
                    > > > > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
                    > > > > > > discussion is how Summer
                    > > > > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
                    > > > > > > all about, if not
                    > > > > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Oh my.....
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > And I've been dishonest?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
                    > > > > > > bad"?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
                    > > > > > > dismay.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
                    > > > > > > in a reasonable
                    > > > > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
                    > > > > > > carefully, to
                    > > > > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
                    > > > > > > the name Summer in
                    > > > > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
                    > > > > > > find a way to
                    > > > > > > fault that behavior.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
                    > > > > > > character
                    > > > > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
                    > > > > > > predictably, to other
                    > > > > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
                    > > > > > > communication between
                    > > > > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
                    > > > > > > x-eckankar groups.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
                    > > > > > > the basic
                    > > > > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
                    > > > > > > discussion
                    > > > > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
                    > > > > > > any of this.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
                    > > > > > > point? My thinking
                    > > > > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
                    > > > > > > to appeal to the
                    > > > > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
                    > > > > > > consideration is
                    > > > > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
                    > > > > > > box is out of
                    > > > > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
                    > > > > > > consensus not
                    > > > > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
                    > > > > > > criticized.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
                    > > > > > > questioning the
                    > > > > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
                    > > > > > > long as it doesn't
                    > > > > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
                    > > > > > > cherished, so
                    > > > > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
                    > > > > > > tested. Posts are
                    > > > > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
                    > > > > > > Writing is
                    > > > > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
                    > > > > > > norms.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Recipes, anyone?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
                    > > > > > > is one of stark,
                    > > > > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
                    > > > > > > nuances of
                    > > > > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
                    > > > > > > careless strokes,
                    > > > > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
                    > > > > > > And anyone who
                    > > > > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
                    > > > > > > conventional "wisdom"
                    > > > > > > is...maligned.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
                    > > > > > > Either way, I'll take
                    > > > > > > it as a compliment.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Leafeater
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > -ate the leaf and left!
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > This electronic mail transmission may contain privileged,
                    > > > > > confidential and/or proprietary information intended only
                    > for
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > person(s) named. Any use, distribution, copying or
                    > disclosure
                    > > to
                    > > > > > another person is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
                    > > > > addressee
                    > > > > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of
                    > the
                    > > > > message
                    > > > > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message
                    > to
                    > > > > anyone.
                    > > > > > In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly
                    > > notify
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > sender by reply email.
                    > > > > >
                    > > ***************************************************************
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > __________________________________________________________
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • tomleafeater
                    ... much. ... My views are more or less the same as always, although I do continue to evolve in my realization of what it means to have left eckankar, which
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 11, 2007
                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Colleen Russell"
                      > <colleenmft@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I think it would be a significant loss to ET if Leaf left. I know
                      > > that I would not be alone in missing his contributions.
                      >
                      > **** I miss the old Leaf. I used to like his contributions very
                      much.
                      > But now, as I see it, he has taken out himself. It's a real pity.



                      My views are more or less the same as always, although I do continue
                      to evolve in my realization of what it means to have left eckankar,
                      which has come into better and better focus. I've never been the sort
                      of person to become frozen and fixed in my perception.



                      > >
                      > > The boat has been rocked.
                      > >
                      > > Leaving Eckankar means leaving the familiarity and in some
                      ways,the
                      > > comfort of the father's home even if that father was abusive, in
                      my
                      > > experience. I mean abusive in the sense that one couldn't
                      separate
                      > > and develop as an adult. This includes using critical thinking
                      > > skills, setting personal limits, making choices based on one's
                      > > individual needs.
                      > >
                      > > Can someone have a different opinion and still be accepted? Or,
                      if
                      > > someone has an opinion that is different from another's, does it
                      > >mean
                      > > that the person is "bad". It's easy for a hero to become a
                      > >scapegoat
                      > > and that's what often happens in groups.
                      >
                      > **** Leaf *was* accepted. Everyone just gave their point of view,
                      > that's all. Did he accept the differing views?


                      I don't accept the view that I'm "dishonest" and "narcissistic," or
                      that I'm advocating a pseudo "unconditional love" or that I'm similar
                      to Harold Klemp, that I'm being "enabled" by others who express
                      support, or that I'm "friendless" and the "worst person" on the
                      internet discussion groups.

                      You're absolutely right that I do not accept such views.


                      > >
                      > > I think that getting back to a more balanced discussion involves
                      > > tolerating some uncertainties and healthy (respectful)
                      > >disagreements
                      > > as well as agreements in the group.
                      >
                      > **** And that's the difference compared to ekkie groups ... :-)


                      Funny, I have at times been treated with more respect on A.R.E. for
                      differences of opinion than I have on ET or ESA. I've discussed the
                      same issues there as I have here, and I noticed after ahwile that if
                      I expressed myself without using ad hominem attacks (you know,
                      attacking people in a personal manner, calling them lyers or crazy) I
                      was treated in a far better manner. Maybe the difference is they knew
                      they had to contend with me, that I wasn't going away, and that the
                      personal attacks on me weren't working. I could be as tenacious here,
                      but why would I want to go through that?

                      But I think people are pretty much the same everywhere, in terms of
                      certain basic characteristics. The dynamics on the ex-eckankar groups
                      are surprisingly similar to the dynamics on the eckankar groups.

                      After all, every one posting here who was a member was attracted to
                      eckankar, which perhaps indicates they may have something in common
                      in basic temperament with those who are still members. Do those
                      traits change in people just because they've left eckankar? I doubt
                      it.

                      For example, I notice a strong need for group identity among those
                      posting here. There are other traits, as well, that I've noticed that
                      people posting on the various ex-eckankar and eckankar groups have in
                      common.

                      But have I changed, as you have suggested? Not really. I never felt
                      really comfortable posting on the ex-eckankar groups. I always got
                      the feeling that there were certain things I just couldn't delve
                      into. Whenever I began to really express what I thought, conflicts
                      quickly arose. If you notice something different about me, it may be
                      that you've never really come face to face with who I really am. You
                      all know me by a completely diffferent venue, one of me standing up
                      to eckankar on A.R.E. I'm a far more complex person than that. In
                      this venue of the ex-eckankar groups, there is a different context,
                      and therefore a different aspect comes into play than on, say, A.R.E.

                      I don't like having to conform to any sort of 'group think.' I
                      realize it is encountered whenever two or more people get together,
                      whether its a political group, a social group, a religious group, or
                      any kind of group. I think most people have an instinct to conform to
                      groups enough to "get along" with the group. Studies show this is
                      true. People will go to extreme lengths to conform, even if it
                      requires suspension of their usual, preferred patterns of behavior.

                      I seem to be somewhat less prone to that, especially after having
                      left eckankar. But I have to say, what really bothers me is when
                      people ignore basic common sense in favor of the group's belief
                      system, come hell or high water. And it seems any group has such
                      unwritten basic beliefs, rules or accepted norms, and when they're
                      not followed sufficiently, all hell breaks loose.

                      I broke some of those accepted norms here, and we all witnessed what
                      happened. I think some of you (one or two in particular) should know
                      better.

                      That's my view. Others may differ, of course.

                      Well, have at it, folks. Like old Sam on A.R.E. used to say, its like
                      throwing chop to the geese!

                      Leafeater




                      > Ingrid
                      > >
                      > > Colleen
                      > >
                      > > Colleen
                      > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@>
                      wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Leaf,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post
                      > below ...
                      > > > > Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck
                      > groups
                      > > > > into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
                      > > > > attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what
                      > > happened
                      > > > on
                      > > > > ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't
                      > have
                      > > > > enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > The discussion spilled over to that group, and it refferred and
                      > > > pertained to the discussion here on ET, so it is completely
                      > > > appropriate that I commented about what was posted there. Some
                      of
                      > > the
                      > > > people posting here also post there. The separation between the
                      > two
                      > > > is a bit illusory, since its only a mouse click away, and
                      delves
                      > > into
                      > > > the same topics. Sharon posts there more than she does on her
                      own
                      > > > group. In reality, the discussions often intertwine between the
                      > two
                      > > > groups. And if I'm being slandered there with the same word for
                      > > word
                      > > > slanders that have occurred on ET, I don't see any reason why
                      > that
                      > > > should be kept quiet. I'm not living by your rules. Sorry.
                      > > >
                      > > > As to your assertion I'm lacking arguments in support of my
                      > views,
                      > > > the truth is there are so many that I only expressed a fraction
                      > of
                      > > > them.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious
                      words
                      > > in
                      > > > > your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the
                      > way
                      > > > you
                      > > > > accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yes, I finally decided to tell you what I really think, after
                      all
                      > > the
                      > > > terrible comments that have been written over the last few
                      days.
                      > > Did
                      > > > you think I would refrain from answering the slander forever?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to
                      > > > respond
                      > > > > further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to
                      leave
                      > ET
                      > > > > instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about
                      > how
                      > > > bad
                      > > > > we are.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I have decided to leave ET soon. In fact, I decided that long
                      > ago,
                      > > > but wanted to drop in once in awhile with a comment or two.
                      > > > Obviously, even the most mild of my comments provokes enormous
                      > > > controversy on this poarticular site, so I have to agree with
                      you-
                      > -
                      > > I
                      > > > don't belong here, and if I suddenly started "fitting in" here
                      > I'd
                      > > > wonder what slippery slope I slid down to make anyone here
                      > tolerate
                      > > > me. In other words, with my world view being what it is, and
                      the
                      > > > world view of most of you being what it is, we shouldn't expect
                      > to
                      > > > agree on much.
                      > > >
                      > > > Leaf
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > Ingrid
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hello Ingrid,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > As to whether I've been attacked:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > That word first came up as an accusation that I was
                      attacking
                      > > > > Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that
                      I
                      > > had
                      > > > > meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked,
                      as
                      > > > well.
                      > > > > So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the
                      > > discussion
                      > > > > at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought
                      > that
                      > > > up.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look
                      at
                      > > > some
                      > > > > of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with
                      respect,
                      > > or
                      > > > if
                      > > > > I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one
                      > > wants
                      > > > > to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my
                      > > comments.
                      > > > > While some of the following excerpts of posts are more
                      > revealing
                      > > > than
                      > > > > others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell
                      an
                      > > > > interesting story.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
                      > > > > resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers,
                      > nazis,
                      > > or
                      > > > > whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-
                      age
                      > > > stuff
                      > > > > about unconditional divine love.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
                      > > > > conversation just after I expressed some compassion to
                      another,
                      > > as
                      > > > if
                      > > > > I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar.
                      I
                      > > do
                      > > > > believe in treating others with understanding and compassion,
                      > if
                      > > at
                      > > > > all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology,
                      > so
                      > > I
                      > > > > don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
                      > > > > with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar,
                      which,
                      > > as
                      > > > > I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically,
                      more
                      > > in
                      > > > > agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups.
                      > Most
                      > > > > eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which
                      is
                      > > > > defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love.
                      > > > Compassion
                      > > > > is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is
                      > > > considered
                      > > > > to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway
                      > you
                      > > > > want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even
                      > > > though
                      > > > > you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in
                      > exactly
                      > > > the
                      > > > > same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same
                      > thing.
                      > > > > They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just
                      > like
                      > > > the
                      > > > > eckists.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were
                      someone
                      > I
                      > > > > could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been
                      > dishonest
                      > > > > with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you
                      and
                      > be
                      > > > > friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                      > > > feathers"
                      > > > > it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big
                      > red
                      > > > > rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be
                      different
                      > > or
                      > > > > have a different opinion
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big
                      red
                      > > > > rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
                      > > > > understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize
                      > for
                      > > > any
                      > > > > of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city
                      > was
                      > > > > rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and
                      > > having
                      > > > a
                      > > > > go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for
                      a
                      > > > poor
                      > > > > loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on
                      any
                      > of
                      > > > the
                      > > > > BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people-
                      > > > Colleen
                      > > > > for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him,
                      and
                      > > > > when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are
                      > > simply
                      > > > > enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others,
                      > > like
                      > > > > Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only
                      > using
                      > > > > Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm
                      > the
                      > > > > worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use
                      > > > people,
                      > > > > that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is
                      trashed
                      > > for
                      > > > > her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying
                      > to
                      > > > help
                      > > > > me see the truth.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes,
                      > > it's
                      > > > > funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and
                      > Tolerance
                      > > > > while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy
                      because
                      > > the
                      > > > > world revolves around them.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated
                      > > group
                      > > > > (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments
                      on
                      > > > this
                      > > > > group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
                      > > > > discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason
                      > for
                      > > > > being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and
                      > the
                      > > > > reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really
                      didn't
                      > > > give
                      > > > > up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak
                      through
                      > > the
                      > > > > local MN airport naked! ;-)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
                      > > > > comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation
                      > that
                      > > > > people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to
                      > > > practice
                      > > > > Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp.
                      Sheez,
                      > > > what
                      > > > > gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people
                      > > posting
                      > > > > here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really
                      thought
                      > > > about
                      > > > > some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists
                      > still
                      > > > > believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster
                      Shabdahu
                      > > who
                      > > > > wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled
                      > with
                      > > > ESA,
                      > > > > she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar
                      > group-
                      > > > his
                      > > > > comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your
                      post.
                      > > I'm
                      > > > > posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would
                      > just
                      > > > keep
                      > > > > the discussion going over there and probably in another
                      > > direction.
                      > > > I
                      > > > > don't care to put myself in another endless/going
                      > > nowhere "debate."
                      > > > > But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and
                      > > > appropriate
                      > > > > replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only
                      > expressing
                      > > > > your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult
                      > > mentality
                      > > > > operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion.
                      > Compassion
                      > > is
                      > > > a
                      > > > > wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude
                      > > > individuals
                      > > > > a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu"
                      who
                      > > > > complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination
                      > > > machine
                      > > > > is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here
                      > can't
                      > > > > allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
                      > > > > credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons
                      (Colleen
                      > > and
                      > > > > Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been
                      > > maligned.
                      > > > > So, even others are attacked who say something good about me.
                      > > This
                      > > > is
                      > > > > intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic
                      remind
                      > > > > anyone of....eckankar?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
                      > > > > from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with
                      > > him.
                      > > > > However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past
                      > > mainly
                      > > > > because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology
                      and
                      > > > > attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
                      > > > > occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in.
                      > Most
                      > > > > would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first
                      > > paragraph.
                      > > > > This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong
                      > > person
                      > > > to
                      > > > > get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in
                      the
                      > > > face
                      > > > > doesn't really make sense to me.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of
                      > anyone
                      > > > who
                      > > > > has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is,
                      > people
                      > > > who
                      > > > > support me are bad, evil people.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site.
                      He
                      > > did
                      > > > a
                      > > > > lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't
                      matter
                      > > he
                      > > > > didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into
                      > his
                      > > > own
                      > > > > likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is
                      Shabdahu
                      > is
                      > > > > generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing
                      wrong
                      > > > with
                      > > > > that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming
                      who
                      > is
                      > > > > right or wrong in an instance.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > [....}
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was
                      > all
                      > > > > about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is
                      what
                      > > it
                      > > > is
                      > > > > all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who
                      > gives
                      > > > the
                      > > > > appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress.
                      > Very
                      > > > > similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : )
                      > > Well,
                      > > > > good luck!"
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm
                      > just
                      > > > > acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly
                      > > > vicious.
                      > > > > I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance
                      of
                      > a
                      > > > > rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings
                      > in
                      > > > the
                      > > > > prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and
                      reveals
                      > > her
                      > > > > problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah,
                      > you're
                      > > > all
                      > > > > just nice people expressing a different point of view.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there
                      are
                      > > > > different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted
                      > to
                      > > > > attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have
                      > > fun!
                      > > > I
                      > > > > don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't
                      > agree
                      > > > with
                      > > > > you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the
                      > one
                      > > > and
                      > > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                      > > attack
                      > > > on
                      > > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any
                      of
                      > > her
                      > > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                      > wouldn't
                      > > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                      > attitude
                      > > > > deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't
                      > even
                      > > > want
                      > > > > your "knight in shiny armor" help??
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come
                      > to
                      > > my
                      > > > > rescue! LOL!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Here we see the same theme about "white knights"
                      > and "rescuing
                      > > > > damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in
                      > shiny
                      > > > > armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And
                      I'm
                      > > > > referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity
                      to
                      > > > claim
                      > > > > nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me.
                      > I'm
                      > > > > just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
                      > > > > pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
                      > > > > untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new
                      > age"
                      > > > guy
                      > > > > spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
                      > > > > friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the
                      > > posts
                      > > > > above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar
                      groups,
                      > > > which
                      > > > > reveals just how much you're all making of this.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > All this because I wrote this post:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
                      > she's
                      > > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
                      > her.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                      > > > Alternative
                      > > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
                      > > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available,
                      > as
                      > > > well
                      > > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
                      > hand,
                      > > if
                      > > > > you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                      > There
                      > > > are
                      > > > > some good people in the world who will want to help.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Peace and Love,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Leaf
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that
                      > was
                      > > > > obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have
                      > > shaken
                      > > > up
                      > > > > some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
                      > > > > righteousness.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that
                      > important
                      > > > to
                      > > > > be so intent on smearing others just because they have a
                      > > different
                      > > > > way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who
                      reads
                      > > the
                      > > > > foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly
                      > > intolerant
                      > > > > you folks are.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over
                      > again--
                      > > > > mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because
                      you
                      > > > don't
                      > > > > like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
                      > > > > supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking
                      on
                      > a
                      > > > > sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when
                      > the
                      > > > > man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly
                      > > empty
                      > > > > of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa
                      > was
                      > > > too
                      > > > > small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an
                      > > > employee
                      > > > > from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both
                      > Lisa
                      > > > and
                      > > > > the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
                      > > > > bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the
                      > > > majority
                      > > > > of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on
                      the
                      > > > floor.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded
                      > in
                      > > > the
                      > > > > rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in
                      front
                      > > of
                      > > > > me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think
                      > about
                      > > > > walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people
                      > who
                      > > > > ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're
                      to
                      > > > > cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally
                      > ill
                      > > > > because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their
                      > > fellow
                      > > > > human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're
                      > > > cowards.
                      > > > > You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you
                      rail
                      > > > > against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules
                      and
                      > > > > beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish,
                      > conformist
                      > > to
                      > > > > your own group, and you've created as much polarization
                      between
                      > > > > yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar
                      > has.
                      > > It
                      > > > > the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've
                      > > > become
                      > > > > that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous,
                      > > > uncaring
                      > > > > people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at
                      > any
                      > > > who
                      > > > > don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be
                      > > > considered
                      > > > > acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you
                      > resort
                      > > > to
                      > > > > character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
                      > > > > intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
                      > > > > credibility of those who simply have a different point of
                      view.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some
                      > of
                      > > > you
                      > > > > have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently
                      you
                      > > > have
                      > > > > a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've
                      > been
                      > > > > told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the
                      accusations
                      > > are
                      > > > > accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble
                      doubting
                      > > > what
                      > > > > I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when
                      you
                      > > show
                      > > > > your true colors.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > From: ctecvie
                      > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
                      > > > > > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr -
                      and
                      > > my
                      > > > > post that caused all the commotion
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Leaf,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                      > > > > different
                      > > > > > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
                      > attack
                      > > > > you.
                      > > > > > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I
                      > > don't
                      > > > > know
                      > > > > > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree
                      with
                      > > you
                      > > > > like
                      > > > > > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one
                      > and
                      > > > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is
                      an
                      > > > > attack on
                      > > > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in
                      any
                      > of
                      > > > her
                      > > > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                      > > > wouldn't
                      > > > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                      > > > attitude
                      > > > > > deserve a public thank you as well?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny
                      > > armor"
                      > > > > help??
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to
                      come
                      > > to
                      > > > my
                      > > > > > rescue! LOL!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Ingrid
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
                      <tianyue@>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Paul wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > "Enough already?"
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so
                      why
                      > am
                      > > I
                      > > > > > posting? This has devolved to the level of
                      people "flaming"
                      > > me.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't
                      > enjoy
                      > > > > this.
                      > > > > > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand.
                      The
                      > > more
                      > > > > you
                      > > > > > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of
                      > > absurdity.
                      > > > > The
                      > > > > > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more
                      > posts
                      > > > > that
                      > > > > > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have
                      > > better
                      > > > > ways
                      > > > > > to use my time.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Leaf
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > > From: Paul Olson
                      > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
                      > > > > > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and
                      my
                      > > post
                      > > > > > that caused all the commotion
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > H All.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie!
                      I'm
                      > > > going
                      > > > > > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as
                      > the
                      > > > > video is
                      > > > > > released......
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Let's move on.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Sword
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
                      --
                      > > > > > ----------
                      > > > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian
                      Yue
                      > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
                      > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
                      post
                      > > > that
                      > > > > > caused all the commotion
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I
                      > don't
                      > > > know
                      > > > > > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
                      > > > > previously,
                      > > > > > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to
                      write
                      > > the
                      > > > > most
                      > > > > > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle,
                      > but
                      > > > > equally
                      > > > > > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd
                      > ruffled
                      > > > some
                      > > > > > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few
                      > days.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally.
                      I
                      > > > meant
                      > > > > > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most
                      > > pointed
                      > > > > > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded
                      to
                      > > it.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism
                      without
                      > a
                      > > > > word.
                      > > > > > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I
                      was
                      > > > > appalled.
                      > > > > > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that
                      I
                      > > made
                      > > > > for
                      > > > > > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that
                      started
                      > > all
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > commotion:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I
                      know
                      > > > she's
                      > > > > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes
                      out
                      > > to
                      > > > > her.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                      > > > > > Alternative
                      > > > > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a
                      > natural
                      > > > > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are
                      > > available,
                      > > > > as
                      > > > > > well
                      > > > > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you
                      a
                      > > > hand,
                      > > > > if
                      > > > > > you
                      > > > > > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                      > > There
                      > > > > are
                      > > > > > some
                      > > > > > > good people in the world who will want to help.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Peace and Love,
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Leaf
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the
                      authorities,
                      > > > > > something must be done!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the
                      > > > slightest
                      > > > > > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is
                      > who
                      > > I
                      > > > > am.
                      > > > > > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of
                      > > relating
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > the world to make people happy on some internet
                      discussion
                      > > > group.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my
                      > post.
                      > > I
                      > > > > > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that
                      > occurred
                      > > on
                      > > > > > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was
                      > > beginning
                      > > > > all
                      > > > > > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on
                      that
                      > > > > issue, as
                      > > > > > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words
                      to
                      > > > > Summer,
                      > > > > > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to
                      > what
                      > > I
                      > > > > see
                      > > > > > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I
                      get
                      > > > tired
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when
                      > > > everyone
                      > > > > > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do
                      write
                      > > with
                      > > > > > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to
                      > > you.
                      > > > > You
                      > > > > > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who
                      wrote
                      > > on
                      > > > > A.R.E.
                      > > > > > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS
                      that
                      > > goes
                      > > > > on
                      > > > > > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone
                      > else
                      > > > who
                      > > > > > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing
                      to
                      > me
                      > > > > that
                      > > > > > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I
                      > would
                      > > > get
                      > > > > > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person
                      (if
                      > > he
                      > > > > > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him
                      > to
                      > > be
                      > > > a
                      > > > > > special person, even if I never responded to the emails)
                      > told
                      > > > me
                      > > > > he
                      > > > > > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I
                      > > didn't
                      > > > > know
                      > > > > > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as
                      > I'm
                      > > > > > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the
                      > > > bullshit.
                      > > > > It
                      > > > > > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated
                      > > > posting
                      > > > > > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in
                      > > time.
                      > > > It
                      > > > > got
                      > > > > > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing
                      > > completely
                      > > > > > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most
                      remember.
                      > > > People
                      > > > > who
                      > > > > > trashed everything I ever did.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly
                      > sorry
                      > > if
                      > > > I
                      > > > > > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand
                      someone
                      > > is
                      > > > > being
                      > > > > > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were
                      circumstances
                      > > > that
                      > > > > > warranted it.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Leaf
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > > From: tygerpurr
                      > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
                      > > > > > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon
                      > will
                      > > > hate
                      > > > > > this i suppose
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the
                      end
                      > is
                      > > > > > really
                      > > > > > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling
                      insecure?
                      > In
                      > > > > > this case
                      > > > > > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-
                      > > minded"
                      > > > > > and is
                      > > > > > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of
                      > > > misunderstanding
                      > > > > > going
                      > > > > > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to
                      go
                      > > > after
                      > > > > > Leaf.
                      > > > > > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have
                      even
                      > > told
                      > > > > > him that
                      > > > > > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it
                      > > might
                      > > > > > hurt to
                      > > > > > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of
                      your
                      > > > > > comments out
                      > > > > > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not
                      perfect,
                      > > nor
                      > > > am
                      > > > > > I. I
                      > > > > > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind
                      us.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this
                      is
                      > > > their
                      > > > > > doing
                      > > > > > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with
                      emails
                      > > > behind
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places.
                      > In
                      > > > > > fact, I
                      > > > > > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved,
                      > except
                      > > > for
                      > > > > > one
                      > > > > > > public reply.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Tygerpurr ; )
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson"
                      > <Paul@>
                      > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate
                      this
                      > i
                      > > > > > suppose
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Just an FYI here.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome,
                      > or
                      > > > > > prejudiced,
                      > > > > > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses
                      himself
                      > > in
                      > > > a
                      > > > > > strong
                      > > > > > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-
                      > minded
                      > > > > > person.
                      > > > > > > This pisses off some less secure people.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get
                      back
                      > to
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a
                      > > waste
                      > > > > > of time
                      > > > > > > and effort.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some
                      > > RECIPES!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > That side is T R U T H !!!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him,
                      > her,
                      > > > > > whatever.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Sword
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      > colleen
                      > > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
                      > > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon
                      will
                      > > hate
                      > > > > > this i
                      > > > > > > suppose
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Leaf...
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
                      > > > > > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
                      > > > > > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
                      > > > > > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
                      > > > > > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
                      > > > > > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
                      > > > > > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
                      > > > > > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
                      > > > > > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
                      > > > > > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Some of the members here in this group feel
                      > > > > > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
                      > > > > > > in my opinion.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Colleen
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
                      > > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
                      > > > > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
                      > > > > > > > words out of context.
                      > > > > > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
                      > > > > > > > that never even
                      > > > > > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
                      > > > > > > > was probably just
                      > > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
                      > > > > > > > could start an
                      > > > > > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
                      > > > > > > > I opposed you.
                      > > > > > > > You
                      > > > > > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
                      > > > > > > > someone I could trust.
                      > > > > > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
                      > > > > > > > dishonest with me,
                      > > > > > > > someone
                      > > > > > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
                      > > > > > > > friendly with. NOw
                      > > > > > > > I
                      > > > > > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                      > > > > > > > feathers" it appears
                      > > > > > > > that
                      > > > > > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
                      > > > > > > > rooster ruffling
                      > > > > > > > his
                      > > > > > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
                      > > > > > > > a different
                      > > > > > > > > opinion.#####
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
                      > > > > > > > statement "always being
                      > > > > > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
                      > > > > > > > being too "nice" to
                      > > > > > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
                      > > > > > > > discussion is how Summer
                      > > > > > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
                      > > > > > > > all about, if not
                      > > > > > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Oh my.....
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > And I've been dishonest?
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
                      > > > > > > > bad"?
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
                      > > > > > > > dismay.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
                      > > > > > > > in a reasonable
                      > > > > > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
                      > > > > > > > carefully, to
                      > > > > > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
                      > > > > > > > the name Summer in
                      > > > > > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
                      > > > > > > > find a way to
                      > > > > > > > fault that behavior.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
                      > > > > > > > character
                      > > > > > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
                      > > > > > > > predictably, to other
                      > > > > > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
                      > > > > > > > communication between
                      > > > > > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
                      > > > > > > > x-eckankar groups.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
                      > > > > > > > the basic
                      > > > > > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
                      > > > > > > > discussion
                      > > > > > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
                      > > > > > > > any of this.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
                      > > > > > > > point? My thinking
                      > > > > > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
                      > > > > > > > to appeal to the
                      > > > > > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
                      > > > > > > > consideration is
                      > > > > > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
                      > > > > > > > box is out of
                      > > > > > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
                      > > > > > > > consensus not
                      > > > > > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
                      > > > > > > > criticized.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
                      > > > > > > > questioning the
                      > > > > > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
                      > > > > > > > long as it doesn't
                      > > > > > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
                      > > > > > > > cherished, so
                      > > > > > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
                      > > > > > > > tested. Posts are
                      > > > > > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
                      > > > > > > > Writing is
                      > > > > > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
                      > > > > > > > norms.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Recipes, anyone?
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
                      > > > > > > > is one of stark,
                      > > > > > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
                      > > > > > > > nuances of
                      > > > > > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
                      > > > > > > > careless strokes,
                      > > > > > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
                      > > > > > > > And anyone who
                      > > > > > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
                      > > > > > > > conventional "wisdom"
                      > > > > > > > is...maligned.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
                      > > > > > > > Either way, I'll take
                      > > > > > > > it as a compliment.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Leafeater
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > -ate the leaf and left!
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > This electronic mail transmission may contain
                      privileged,
                      > > > > > > confidential and/or proprietary information intended
                      only
                      > > for
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > person(s) named. Any use, distribution, copying or
                      > > disclosure
                      > > > to
                      > > > > > > another person is strictly prohibited. If you are not
                      the
                      > > > > > addressee
                      > > > > > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery
                      of
                      > > the
                      > > > > > message
                      > > > > > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this
                      message
                      > > to
                      > > > > > anyone.
                      > > > > > > In such case, you should destroy this message and
                      kindly
                      > > > notify
                      > > > > > the
                      > > > > > > sender by reply email.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > ***************************************************************
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      __________________________________________________________
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • tomleafeater
                      ... mean ... scapegoat ... disagreements ... Thankyou, Colleen, for what you ve written in your post. I think it requires a certain degree of personal courage
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 11, 2007
                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Colleen Russell"
                        <colleenmft@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think it would be a significant loss to ET if Leaf left. I know
                        > that I would not be alone in missing his contributions.
                        >
                        > The boat has been rocked.
                        >
                        > Leaving Eckankar means leaving the familiarity and in some ways,the
                        > comfort of the father's home even if that father was abusive, in my
                        > experience. I mean abusive in the sense that one couldn't separate
                        > and develop as an adult. This includes using critical thinking
                        > skills, setting personal limits, making choices based on one's
                        > individual needs.
                        >
                        > Can someone have a different opinion and still be accepted? Or, if
                        > someone has an opinion that is different from another's, does it
                        mean
                        > that the person is "bad". It's easy for a hero to become a
                        scapegoat
                        > and that's what often happens in groups.
                        >
                        > I think that getting back to a more balanced discussion involves
                        > tolerating some uncertainties and healthy (respectful)
                        disagreements
                        > as well as agreements in the group.
                        >
                        > Colleen


                        Thankyou, Colleen, for what you've written in your post. I think it
                        requires a certain degree of personal courage and integrity, under
                        the circumstances, to write what you have on this particular public
                        forum. Clearly, your opinion is at odds with most people who actually
                        post here, and yet you've expressed it anyway. I truly respect that.
                        Thanks. I can't tell you how much its appreciated.

                        You often have some great and helpful insights which I know are
                        valued by people reading the posts here. After the latest fiasco,
                        I've recently received some supportive emails, one of which expressed
                        appreciation of your contributions here.

                        I'm not sure what else to say at the moment.

                        I'm working as a volunteer on a political campaign here in Iowa,
                        which is really heating up at the moment, as anyone watching the
                        national news can witness. I'm really busy these days. This ET
                        discussion has been a distraction from these other activities.

                        I don't know what to make of the conflicts on ET. I'm not willing to
                        publicly state all my thoughts or impressions, as you can imagine.
                        I'm somewhat taken aback by what has happened, but I have a
                        meaningful life that has nothing to do with all the eckankar
                        nonsense, and it needs my attention.

                        Graduating, indeed.

                        Leaves, maybe.


                        >
                        > Colleen
                        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie" <ctecvie@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Leaf,
                        > > >
                        > > > I won't use many words to comment your long-winded post
                        below ...
                        > > > Just let me say that there's no need to bring other ex-eck
                        groups
                        > > > into play - and you use a lot of this to explain why you felt
                        > > > attacked. I would have preferred had you remained on what
                        > happened
                        > > on
                        > > > ET because this just gives me the impression that you don't
                        have
                        > > > enough arguments to justify your attacks on people on ET.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The discussion spilled over to that group, and it refferred and
                        > > pertained to the discussion here on ET, so it is completely
                        > > appropriate that I commented about what was posted there. Some of
                        > the
                        > > people posting here also post there. The separation between the
                        two
                        > > is a bit illusory, since its only a mouse click away, and delves
                        > into
                        > > the same topics. Sharon posts there more than she does on her own
                        > > group. In reality, the discussions often intertwine between the
                        two
                        > > groups. And if I'm being slandered there with the same word for
                        > word
                        > > slanders that have occurred on ET, I don't see any reason why
                        that
                        > > should be kept quiet. I'm not living by your rules. Sorry.
                        > >
                        > > As to your assertion I'm lacking arguments in support of my
                        views,
                        > > the truth is there are so many that I only expressed a fraction
                        of
                        > > them.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > And then, as to the attacks - you really use some vicious words
                        > in
                        > > > your post below, calling names and sticking labels - just the
                        way
                        > > you
                        > > > accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to you.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yes, I finally decided to tell you what I really think, after all
                        > the
                        > > terrible comments that have been written over the last few days.
                        > Did
                        > > you think I would refrain from answering the slander forever?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Well ... I just can say I have better use of my time than to
                        > > respond
                        > > > further to you. Perhaps it would just be best for you to leave
                        ET
                        > > > instead of going on and on and whining and complaining about
                        how
                        > > bad
                        > > > we are.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > I have decided to leave ET soon. In fact, I decided that long
                        ago,
                        > > but wanted to drop in once in awhile with a comment or two.
                        > > Obviously, even the most mild of my comments provokes enormous
                        > > controversy on this poarticular site, so I have to agree with you-
                        -
                        > I
                        > > don't belong here, and if I suddenly started "fitting in" here
                        I'd
                        > > wonder what slippery slope I slid down to make anyone here
                        tolerate
                        > > me. In other words, with my world view being what it is, and the
                        > > world view of most of you being what it is, we shouldn't expect
                        to
                        > > agree on much.
                        > >
                        > > Leaf
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Ingrid
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
                        wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hello Ingrid,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > As to whether I've been attacked:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > That word first came up as an accusation that I was attacking
                        > > > Tygerpurr. I apologized to him for any impression he had that I
                        > had
                        > > > meant to attack him, and also told him that I felt attacked, as
                        > > well.
                        > > > So, don't lay the introduction of the word attack to the
                        > discussion
                        > > > at my feet. I was initially responding to others who brought
                        that
                        > > up.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > But since you brought it up again, let's take a brief look at
                        > > some
                        > > > of the comments to ascertain if I've been treated with respect,
                        > or
                        > > if
                        > > > I've been unfairly denigrated. After all, you did say "no one
                        > wants
                        > > > to attack you." Read through to the end, and then read my
                        > comments.
                        > > > While some of the following excerpts of posts are more
                        revealing
                        > > than
                        > > > others, and others less so, taken as a whole, they all tell an
                        > > > interesting story.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 1) I could give a rat's ass about traumatic past lives that
                        > > > resulted in people being child molesters, serial killers,
                        nazis,
                        > or
                        > > > whatever in this incarnation. I do not believe in that new-age
                        > > stuff
                        > > > about unconditional divine love.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Its odd that the comment by Sharon was brought into the
                        > > > conversation just after I expressed some compassion to another,
                        > as
                        > > if
                        > > > I was advocating the "unconditional love" taught in eckankar. I
                        > do
                        > > > believe in treating others with understanding and compassion,
                        if
                        > at
                        > > > all possible, but I don't make it into a hard, fast ideology,
                        so
                        > I
                        > > > don't have the foggiest notion as to why I've been associated
                        > > > with "new age unconditional love" as taught in Eckankar, which,
                        > as
                        > > > I've written before, is full of holes and contradictions.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In fact, Eckankar's views on compassion are, ironically, more
                        > in
                        > > > agreement with you folks on eckankartruth and e.s.a. groups.
                        Most
                        > > > eckists can't stand people who believe in compassion, which is
                        > > > defined by eckankar as different from unconditional love.
                        > > Compassion
                        > > > is considered to be emotion, whereas unconditional love is
                        > > considered
                        > > > to be above the fray, in which you can act just about anyway
                        you
                        > > > want, all the while pretending to be saintly and loving, even
                        > > though
                        > > > you're not. I've been criticized on A.R.E. by Eckists in
                        exactly
                        > > the
                        > > > same way as I have here by you folks, for exactly the same
                        thing.
                        > > > They don't believe in compassion. Go figure. You're all just
                        like
                        > > the
                        > > > eckists.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 2) You have made it appear in the past that you were someone
                        I
                        > > > could trust. Now I am very concerned that you have been
                        dishonest
                        > > > with me, someone who has gone out of his way to defend you and
                        be
                        > > > friendly with. As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                        > > feathers"
                        > > > it appears that the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big
                        red
                        > > > rooster ruffling his feathers and daring anyone to be different
                        > or
                        > > > have a different opinion
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Wow...according to Tygerpurr I'm dishonest! And I'm a big red
                        > > > rooster! That's heartwarming to know.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 3) Anyway, many eckists and ex eckists LACK, compassion and
                        > > > understanding of others. A true narcissist will not apologize
                        for
                        > > any
                        > > > of their part in this ex or eckankrap mess! Sure summer.city
                        was
                        > > > rude, but Leaf created the mess by stepping in as he did and
                        > having
                        > > a
                        > > > go at other posters with the excuse that he was taking up for a
                        > > poor
                        > > > loss soul (summer.city). Leaf is about the worst person on any
                        of
                        > > the
                        > > > BBs as he is no friend to anyone but himself. He uses people-
                        > > Colleen
                        > > > for one--- who is really way too tolerate and kind to him, and
                        > > > when "they" take his side (when Leaf is so wrong), they are
                        > simply
                        > > > enabling him and encouraging him to continue to abuse others,
                        > like
                        > > > Tygerpurr and members of another ex eck chat group.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Now its alluded to by Liz that I'm a narcissist and only
                        using
                        > > > Summer as an excuse to "go after other posters" and that I'm
                        the
                        > > > worst person on the BB's, that I have no friends, that I use
                        > > people,
                        > > > that I'm being enabled to abuse others. And Colleen is trashed
                        > for
                        > > > her supportive words. Yep, you're all just nice people trying
                        to
                        > > help
                        > > > me see the truth.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 4) HK and Other Narcissists Always Play the Blame Game Yes,
                        > it's
                        > > > funny to see a narcissist talk of Love, Compassion, and
                        Tolerance
                        > > > while they contradict themselves. They have No Empathy because
                        > the
                        > > > world revolves around them.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3037
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I just have to laugh-this last one came from an associated
                        > group
                        > > > (see link), and just happens to coincide with Liz's comments on
                        > > this
                        > > > group. Interesting that compassion was again brought into the
                        > > > discussion, since that is what I have mentioned was my reason
                        for
                        > > > being kind to Summer. And again, the narcissist put-down and
                        the
                        > > > reference to other narcissists besides Klemp.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 5) HAROLD how did you sneak into ET? I knew you really didn't
                        > > give
                        > > > up on using computers! Please promise you won't streak through
                        > the
                        > > > local MN airport naked! ;-)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > This follow up reply could be simple snark or ridicule, but
                        > > > comparing me to Klemp seems to reflect a familiar accusation
                        that
                        > > > people have suggested, that I'm like Klemp or still want to
                        > > practice
                        > > > Eckankar teachings, or that I'm a narcissist like Klemp. Sheez,
                        > > what
                        > > > gets me laughing is I'm less like Eckists than most people
                        > posting
                        > > > here. Most would be shocked if they knew what I really thought
                        > > about
                        > > > some of the lingering nonsense that some of the ex-eckists
                        still
                        > > > believe. Makes me chuckle a bit.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 6) Hi, Tygerpurr! Just wanted to tell you the poster Shabdahu
                        > who
                        > > > wanted to give an award to a post on ET is very disgruntled
                        with
                        > > ESA,
                        > > > she resonated with the comment about another anti-eckankar
                        group-
                        > > his
                        > > > comment IMO was directed more at ESA than it was at your post.
                        > I'm
                        > > > posting this here rather than on ET because I know it would
                        just
                        > > keep
                        > > > the discussion going over there and probably in another
                        > direction.
                        > > I
                        > > > don't care to put myself in another endless/going
                        > nowhere "debate."
                        > > > But I will say your posts and Sharon's are very good and
                        > > appropriate
                        > > > replies to summer.city! Especially, since you are only
                        expressing
                        > > > your impressions and beliefs about how eckancrap and cult
                        > mentality
                        > > > operate--I see nothing wrong with stating an opinion.
                        Compassion
                        > is
                        > > a
                        > > > wonderful thing if not used to make excuses or give rude
                        > > individuals
                        > > > a free pass to misbehave and abuse others! : )
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3031
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Here's another post that actually takes aim at "Shabdahu" who
                        > > > complemented one of my posts. So, the character assassination
                        > > machine
                        > > > is up and running. Yes, incredibly, some of the people here
                        can't
                        > > > allow a person who would give me a complement remain with any
                        > > > credibility intact. This is very sad. The two persons (Colleen
                        > and
                        > > > Shabdahu) who posted something supportive of me have been
                        > maligned.
                        > > > So, even others are attacked who say something good about me.
                        > This
                        > > is
                        > > > intimidation of any who don't go along. Does this tactic remind
                        > > > anyone of....eckankar?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 7) Yes Mish, I was very taken aback by this award thing
                        > > > from "Shabdahu" and didn't know you had had difficulties with
                        > him.
                        > > > However, I have been attacked by this individual in the past
                        > mainly
                        > > > because it seemed to be defending a lot of ek crap ideology and
                        > > > attacking with these endless run on sentence posts, with the
                        > > > occasional "and you are an ass hole" type remarks mixed in.
                        Most
                        > > > would stop reading his nonsensical post after the first
                        > paragraph.
                        > > > This is a very passive/aggressive tactic. This is the wrong
                        > person
                        > > to
                        > > > get aligned with, and thanking for their support.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I really don't know what is going on or why. This slap in the
                        > > face
                        > > > doesn't really make sense to me.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3033
                        > > > >
                        > > > > So, in this post by Tygerpurr there is more maligning of
                        anyone
                        > > who
                        > > > has anything good to say about me. Got it. The message is,
                        people
                        > > who
                        > > > support me are bad, evil people.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 8) Hi, Tygerpurr, Shabdahu is S.P.H. over on Ford's site. He
                        > did
                        > > a
                        > > > lot of negative posting regarding ESA over there--didn't matter
                        > he
                        > > > didn't like us, but he seemed to want to create everyone into
                        his
                        > > own
                        > > > likeness! We are far from his ideal! : ) The thing is Shabdahu
                        is
                        > > > generally an observer/fence sitter which is fine--nothing wrong
                        > > with
                        > > > that--but he jumps in at times, as if a judge, proclaiming who
                        is
                        > > > right or wrong in an instance.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [....}
                        > > > >
                        > > > > BTW, and I probably shouldn't say this, but with ESA it was
                        all
                        > > > about Marla being mistreated. It looks like summer.city is what
                        > it
                        > > is
                        > > > all about on ET in the mind of the resident narcissist who
                        gives
                        > > the
                        > > > appearance of a rescuer of still another damsel in distress.
                        Very
                        > > > similar MO in my opinion! There's a pattern of behavior! : )
                        > Well,
                        > > > good luck!"
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/3034
                        > > > >
                        > > > > More characterizations that I'm mentally ill, and that I'm
                        just
                        > > > acting out a role of rescuing damsels. This is particularly
                        > > vicious.
                        > > > I'm called the "resident narcissist who gives the appearance of
                        a
                        > > > rescuer of still another damsel in distress." She even brings
                        in
                        > > the
                        > > > prior nonsense about Marla on the site she favors, and reveals
                        > her
                        > > > problem with Shabdhu is that he criticized her site. Yeah,
                        you're
                        > > all
                        > > > just nice people expressing a different point of view.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 9) don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                        > > > different opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted
                        to
                        > > > attack you. But you seem to want to see it that way - so have
                        > fun!
                        > > I
                        > > > don't know what's got into you - attacking those who don't
                        agree
                        > > with
                        > > > you like that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the
                        one
                        > > and
                        > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                        > attack
                        > > on
                        > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any of
                        > her
                        > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                        wouldn't
                        > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                        attitude
                        > > > deserve a public thank you as well? So ... maybe she didn't
                        even
                        > > want
                        > > > your "knight in shiny armor" help??
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come
                        to
                        > my
                        > > > rescue! LOL!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Here we see the same theme about "white knights"
                        and "rescuing
                        > > > damsels" continued by Ingrid in stating that the "knight in
                        shiny
                        > > > armor rescues a lady in distress." What a coincidence! And I'm
                        > > > referred to as a "drama queen." And Ingrid has the audacity to
                        > > claim
                        > > > nobody wanted to attack me. Yeah, that's a credible statement.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Right....there is absolutely no attack going on against me.
                        I'm
                        > > > just the mentally ill "resident narcissist," a "drama queen"
                        > > > pretending to be a "white night" who "rescues" people, I'm
                        > > > untrustworthy and "dishonest," a puffed up "rooster," a "new
                        age"
                        > > guy
                        > > > spouting phony "divine unconditional love," someone with "no
                        > > > friends," the "worst person" on the bulletin boards. And the
                        > posts
                        > > > above were made on at least three different ex-eckankar groups,
                        > > which
                        > > > reveals just how much you're all making of this.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > All this because I wrote this post:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
                        she's
                        > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out to
                        her.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                        > > Alternative
                        > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a natural
                        > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are available,
                        as
                        > > well
                        > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
                        hand,
                        > if
                        > > > you haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                        There
                        > > are
                        > > > some good people in the world who will want to help.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Peace and Love,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Leaf
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I expressed some understanding to another person, and that
                        was
                        > > > obviously extremely bothersome to some of you. It must have
                        > shaken
                        > > up
                        > > > some dark corner of insecurity or doubt in your own smug self-
                        > > > righteousness.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Is all this really worth it to you? Is it really that
                        important
                        > > to
                        > > > be so intent on smearing others just because they have a
                        > different
                        > > > way of treating people than you do? Any mature adult who reads
                        > the
                        > > > foregoing posts will be able to see just how incredibly
                        > intolerant
                        > > > you folks are.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To actually stoop the level of calling me--over and over
                        again--
                        > > > mentally ill, and some of the other epithets, just because you
                        > > don't
                        > > > like my difference of opinion is beyond all reason.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I remember recently an experience my wife Lisa had at the
                        > > > supermarket. A person fell down on the floor and was choking on
                        a
                        > > > sample. The aisle had been full of people shopping, but when
                        the
                        > > > man's wife called for someone to help, the aisle was suddenly
                        > empty
                        > > > of people. They all vanished. They didn't want to help. Lisa
                        was
                        > > too
                        > > > small to help the large man, so she yelled for help, and an
                        > > employee
                        > > > from the back room came and assisted. The man credited both
                        Lisa
                        > > and
                        > > > the worker for saving his life. He was dismayed that all the
                        > > > bystanders fled. My wife was surprised and shocked that the
                        > > majority
                        > > > of ordinary people in the store would leave a man to die on the
                        > > floor.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Folks, I stop for animals in the road, help people stranded
                        in
                        > > the
                        > > > rain, and I certainly will help someone who falls down in front
                        > of
                        > > > me. That's who I am. It comes naturally. I don't even think
                        about
                        > > > walking away. And I have little respect, frankly, for people
                        who
                        > > > ignore a person who is alone and in trouble, because they're to
                        > > > cowardly or lazy or callous to care. That's not me.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And if you folks find it necessary to call people mentally
                        ill
                        > > > because they're kind, or compassionate, or helpful to their
                        > fellow
                        > > > human beings, I pity you. And I find you disgusting. You're
                        > > cowards.
                        > > > You're just as bad, if not worse, than all the eckists you rail
                        > > > against. You're as much a cult, with your own little rules and
                        > > > beliefs, as the eckists. You're intolerant, cliquish,
                        conformist
                        > to
                        > > > your own group, and you've created as much polarization between
                        > > > yourselves and those who may not agree with you as eckankar
                        has.
                        > It
                        > > > the old, all too familiar "us-against-them" mentality. You've
                        > > become
                        > > > that which you despise. You're a group of vicious, callous,
                        > > uncaring
                        > > > people who run like wolves in a pack, gnashing your teeth at
                        any
                        > > who
                        > > > don't share your pathetic group-think closely enough to be
                        > > considered
                        > > > acceptable. Gawd, how weak. And just like the eckists, you
                        resort
                        > > to
                        > > > character assassination, ridicule, ad hominem attacks, group
                        > > > intimidation, false accusations, and slander to destroy the
                        > > > credibility of those who simply have a different point of view.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > By the way, according to certain emails I've received, some
                        of
                        > > you
                        > > > have done this before to others on other groups. Apparently you
                        > > have
                        > > > a history of attacking those who don't agree. From what I've
                        been
                        > > > told, people actually fear you. I don't know if the accusations
                        > are
                        > > > accurate, but from my experience I have little trouble doubting
                        > > what
                        > > > I've been told privately. You're rather mean-spirited when you
                        > show
                        > > > your true colors.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > From: ctecvie
                        > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:19 AM
                        > > > > Subject: [SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Reply to Tygerpurr - and
                        > my
                        > > > post that caused all the commotion
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Leaf,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > don't be such a drama queen! Can't you see that there are
                        > > > different
                        > > > > opinions and approaches, that's all - nobody wanted to
                        attack
                        > > > you.
                        > > > > But you seem to want to see it that way - so have fun! I
                        > don't
                        > > > know
                        > > > > what's got into you - attacking those who don't agree with
                        > you
                        > > > like
                        > > > > that! From your posts, it appears as if you were the one
                        and
                        > > > > only "thinker outside the box"! Can you see that this is an
                        > > > attack on
                        > > > > all those who haven't agreed with you?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > By the way, I didn't notice that summer thanked you in any
                        of
                        > > her
                        > > > > recent posts - maybe she has thanked you privately, but
                        > > wouldn't
                        > > > > your "knight in shiny armor rescues a lady in distress"
                        > > attitude
                        > > > > deserve a public thank you as well?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > So ... maybe she didn't even want your "knight in shiny
                        > armor"
                        > > > help??
                        > > > >
                        > > > > And by the way, I can handle your attacks - no need to come
                        > to
                        > > my
                        > > > > rescue! LOL!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Ingrid
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue" <tianyue@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Paul wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > "Enough already?"
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > More than enough. I can see only one friend here, so why
                        am
                        > I
                        > > > > posting? This has devolved to the level of people "flaming"
                        > me.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > My thanks to Colleen. You're a gem.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > As for me, I'm out of this nest of ignorance. I don't
                        enjoy
                        > > > this.
                        > > > > This is worse than A.R.E. ever was.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Posting here is like walking in emotional quicksand. The
                        > more
                        > > > you
                        > > > > participate, the more the dialogue sink to levels of
                        > absurdity.
                        > > > The
                        > > > > thoughtlessness is appalling. I may reply to a few more
                        posts
                        > > > that
                        > > > > warrant some reply, but have it your way, folks. I have
                        > better
                        > > > ways
                        > > > > to use my time.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Leaf
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > > From: Paul Olson
                        > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 1:46 AM
                        > > > > > Subject: RE: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my
                        > post
                        > > > > that caused all the commotion
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > H All.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Enough already? Everyone fine? I hope so.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Please go see "Across the Universe"...Amazing movie! I'm
                        > > going
                        > > > > to host the "60's Party that never happened", as soon as
                        the
                        > > > video is
                        > > > > released......
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Let's move on.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Sword
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                        > > > > ----------
                        > > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tian Yue
                        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:27 PM
                        > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Reply to Tygerpurr - and my post
                        > > that
                        > > > > caused all the commotion
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Your post is a difficult one to answer, Tygerpurr. I
                        don't
                        > > know
                        > > > > where to begin. I'm not even sure I should try.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > It wasn't just your initial post I was responding to
                        > > > previously,
                        > > > > but also a few others, as well. You just happened to write
                        > the
                        > > > most
                        > > > > direct post to me. The others were a little more subtle,
                        but
                        > > > equally
                        > > > > as obvious to me, if not to others. It was clear I'd
                        ruffled
                        > > some
                        > > > > feathers. Its all there in the archives of the last few
                        days.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I didn't expect you to take my reply to you personally. I
                        > > meant
                        > > > > it also as a reply to the group. Your post was the most
                        > pointed
                        > > > > commentary on my words to Summer. That's why I responded to
                        > it.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Sure, I could have walked away from the criticism without
                        a
                        > > > word.
                        > > > > I'm sure that would have made a few people happy. But I was
                        > > > appalled.
                        > > > > In my view, my post to summer was my own expression that I
                        > made
                        > > > for
                        > > > > reasons which I thouroughly explained (see the archives).
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > For those who've forgotten, here's the post that started
                        > all
                        > > > the
                        > > > > commotion:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I remember Summer from some posts a long time ago. I know
                        > > she's
                        > > > > > struggling and probably hurting inside. My heart goes out
                        > to
                        > > > her.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > There's a lot she could do to to find help in some way.
                        > > > > Alternative
                        > > > > > therapies such as high dose omega 3 from fish oil (a
                        natural
                        > > > > > treatment for various psychological disorders) are
                        > available,
                        > > > as
                        > > > > well
                        > > > > > as acupuncture and other approaches.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Summer, find someone who you resonate with to give you a
                        > > hand,
                        > > > if
                        > > > > you
                        > > > > > haven't already. There's no need to suffer in silence.
                        > There
                        > > > are
                        > > > > some
                        > > > > > good people in the world who will want to help.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Peace and Love,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Leaf
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Wow. Talk about controversy! Whoa, call the authorities,
                        > > > > something must be done!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > For what its worth, I stand by my words, without the
                        > > slightest
                        > > > > regret. Jeez, I wouldn't change a single letter. This is
                        who
                        > I
                        > > > am.
                        > > > > This is how I think. I'm not going to change my way of
                        > relating
                        > > > to
                        > > > > the world to make people happy on some internet discussion
                        > > group.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > But I'm truly, truly sorry if you felt attacked by my
                        post.
                        > I
                        > > > > felt attacked as well. After the silly debacle that
                        occurred
                        > on
                        > > > > another ex-eckankar site, it seemed the insanity was
                        > beginning
                        > > > all
                        > > > > over again. I know many people didn't agree with me on that
                        > > > issue, as
                        > > > > well. My post to you was meant as a defense of my words to
                        > > > Summer,
                        > > > > not an attack on you. When I write, I tend to respond to
                        what
                        > I
                        > > > see
                        > > > > between the lines as well as what is plainly in view. I get
                        > > tired
                        > > > of
                        > > > > the game of pretending certain things weren't said when
                        > > everyone
                        > > > > knows they were said, even if not directly. And I do write
                        > with
                        > > > > intensity, when I get motivated. Its something I enjoy.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To be honest, I'd forgotten you told me I was a hero to
                        > you.
                        > > > You
                        > > > > have to understand, that to me, I'm just this guy who wrote
                        > on
                        > > > A.R.E.
                        > > > > for several years and found ways to answer all the BS that
                        > goes
                        > > > on
                        > > > > there. I never really grasped, emotionally, that anyone
                        else
                        > > who
                        > > > > wasn't posting ever read the stuff I wrote. Its amazing to
                        me
                        > > > that
                        > > > > there are people who liked the way I stood my ground. I
                        would
                        > > get
                        > > > > emails from people begging me to never stop. One person (if
                        > he
                        > > > > happens to be reading here, he should know I consider him
                        to
                        > be
                        > > a
                        > > > > special person, even if I never responded to the emails)
                        told
                        > > me
                        > > > he
                        > > > > read everything I ever wrote. That amazes me, frankly. I
                        > didn't
                        > > > know
                        > > > > how to take that. I didn't do anything special, as far as
                        I'm
                        > > > > concerned. I was determined to learn how to answer the
                        > > bullshit.
                        > > > It
                        > > > > was often really difficult, and there were times I hated
                        > > posting
                        > > > > there, but I kept at it, day after day. It got easier in
                        > time.
                        > > It
                        > > > got
                        > > > > so easy, in the end, to refute the nonsense.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Of course, there were those who thought my writing
                        > completely
                        > > > > sucked! In fact, those are the people who I most remember.
                        > > People
                        > > > who
                        > > > > trashed everything I ever did.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > So I didn't mean to be insensitive to you. I'm truly
                        sorry
                        > if
                        > > I
                        > > > > hurt your feelings. Its not my way. If I understand someone
                        > is
                        > > > being
                        > > > > hurt, I wouldn't want that, unless there were circumstances
                        > > that
                        > > > > warranted it.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Leaf
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > > From: tygerpurr
                        > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:50 AM
                        > > > > > Subject: [SPAM][SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon
                        will
                        > > hate
                        > > > > this i suppose
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I agree paul. This has gotten out of hand and in the end
                        is
                        > > > > really
                        > > > > > just pointless. However, who is really feeling insecure?
                        In
                        > > > > this case
                        > > > > > it is my opinion that Leaf is not really being "fair-
                        > minded"
                        > > > > and is
                        > > > > > not choosing his words well. There is a lot of
                        > > misunderstanding
                        > > > > going
                        > > > > > on. It has not been my intention from the beginning to go
                        > > after
                        > > > > Leaf.
                        > > > > > That is absurd. He knows that in past posts, I have even
                        > told
                        > > > > him that
                        > > > > > I considered him to be my Hero. YOu can imagine how it
                        > might
                        > > > > hurt to
                        > > > > > then have your hero blasting you and taking many of your
                        > > > > comments out
                        > > > > > of context to make their own point. Leaf is not perfect,
                        > nor
                        > > am
                        > > > > I. I
                        > > > > > am willing to call a truce and simply put this behind us.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Also, what any other group is saying about all of this is
                        > > their
                        > > > > doing
                        > > > > > not mine, and I am not flying back and forth with emails
                        > > behind
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > scene at all. I read and post in many different places.
                        In
                        > > > > fact, I
                        > > > > > have gone out of my way to not get others involved,
                        except
                        > > for
                        > > > > one
                        > > > > > public reply.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Let's not forget that we have more in common than not.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Tygerpurr ; )
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson"
                        <Paul@>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > RE: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will hate this
                        i
                        > > > > suppose
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Just an FYI here.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I have known Leaf personally for over 34 years!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > In that time, I have NEVER known him to be quarrelsome,
                        or
                        > > > > prejudiced,
                        > > > > > or unfeeling, of another's position. He expresses himself
                        > in
                        > > a
                        > > > > strong
                        > > > > > manor, as he has learned to be very strong and fair-
                        minded
                        > > > > person.
                        > > > > > This pisses off some less secure people.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I'm tired of this conversation. You all need to get back
                        to
                        > > the
                        > > > > > issues at hand and to stop attacking each other. It's a
                        > waste
                        > > > > of time
                        > > > > > and effort.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Perhaps it is time for Leaf and Tian to exchange some
                        > RECIPES!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > We're on the same side here, in the long run
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > That side is T R U T H !!!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Who the hell is "Summer" anyway? I don't remember him,
                        her,
                        > > > > whatever.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Sword
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        colleen
                        > > > > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:18 PM
                        > > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > Subject: Re: [SPAM][SPAM][eckankartruth] Re: Sharon will
                        > hate
                        > > > > this i
                        > > > > > suppose
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Leaf...
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I don't agree with any of the criticism directed at
                        > > > > > you. Yes, you are speaking as an individual and that
                        > > > > > is quite admirable and courageous, in my perspective,
                        > > > > > especially when you spoke of a compassionate response
                        > > > > > to someone who may be experiencing difficulties from
                        > > > > > his/her experiences in eckankar. It's difficult to
                        > > > > > understand the group dynamics, especially given the
                        > > > > > fact, as you stated, that other ex-eckankar groups are
                        > > > > > discussing comments about "Summer" and other reactions
                        > > > > > to him/her, whoever that may be.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Some of the members here in this group feel
                        > > > > > differently than others, a healthy sign of maturity,
                        > > > > > in my opinion.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Colleen
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- tomleafeater <tianyue@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, tygerpurr
                        > > > > > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Tian Yue"
                        > > > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > ##### NO Leaf, you are mistaken and taking my
                        > > > > > > words out of context.
                        > > > > > > > You started this by asking me a question on a post
                        > > > > > > that never even
                        > > > > > > > mentioned your name. I now see that your question
                        > > > > > > was probably just
                        > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > baited question to get me to respond to you so you
                        > > > > > > could start an
                        > > > > > > > argument and attempt to make me look bad and as if
                        > > > > > > I opposed you.
                        > > > > > > You
                        > > > > > > > have made it appear in the past that you were
                        > > > > > > someone I could trust.
                        > > > > > > > Now I am very concerned that you have been
                        > > > > > > dishonest with me,
                        > > > > > > someone
                        > > > > > > > who has gone out of his way to defend you and be
                        > > > > > > friendly with. NOw
                        > > > > > > I
                        > > > > > > > see that this was a big mistake.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > As far as supposedly "ruffling other peoples
                        > > > > > > feathers" it appears
                        > > > > > > that
                        > > > > > > > the feather ruffling is mostly by you, a big red
                        > > > > > > rooster ruffling
                        > > > > > > his
                        > > > > > > > feathers and daring anyone to be different or have
                        > > > > > > a different
                        > > > > > > > opinion.#####
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Actually, Tygerpurr, you did imply, by the
                        > > > > > > statement "always being
                        > > > > > > > nice may not be the best approach," that I was
                        > > > > > > being too "nice" to
                        > > > > > > > Summer. In fact, the entire context of this
                        > > > > > > discussion is how Summer
                        > > > > > > > should have been treated. What else was your post
                        > > > > > > all about, if not
                        > > > > > > > about the way I treated Summer? .........
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Oh my.....
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > You think I'm baiting you to start an aurgument?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > And I've been dishonest?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > That I deliberately have tried to make you "look
                        > > > > > > bad"?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > This is flabbergasting. I'm shaking my head in
                        > > > > > > dismay.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > All I've ever tried to do is respond to each person
                        > > > > > > in a reasonable
                        > > > > > > way that makes sense to me. I try to choose my words
                        > > > > > > carefully, to
                        > > > > > > convey my thoughts accurately.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > As it stands, I tried to respond to a person using
                        > > > > > > the name Summer in
                        > > > > > > a decent, civil manner, and a few people just had to
                        > > > > > > find a way to
                        > > > > > > fault that behavior.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > The discussion has disintegrated to name calling and
                        > > > > > > character
                        > > > > > > assasination, and has even spilled over, quite
                        > > > > > > predictably, to other
                        > > > > > > associated groups. I imagine the back channel
                        > > > > > > communication between
                        > > > > > > certain members are flying, as usual.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > There is often a dysfunctional tendency in these
                        > > > > > > x-eckankar groups.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > At this point, I realize the level of discourse and
                        > > > > > > the basic
                        > > > > > > philosophy and attitudes that have surfaced in the
                        > > > > > > discussion
                        > > > > > > indicate it is pointless to use reason to resolve
                        > > > > > > any of this.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I could offer some thoughts, but what would be the
                        > > > > > > point? My thinking
                        > > > > > > obviously wouldn't be sufficiently black and white
                        > > > > > > to appeal to the
                        > > > > > > habitues' that regularly post here.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Subtle perpectives have no friend here. Thoughtful
                        > > > > > > consideration is
                        > > > > > > given no quarter. Thinking outside the established
                        > > > > > > box is out of
                        > > > > > > bounds. Introspection is frowned upon. Doubting the
                        > > > > > > consensus not
                        > > > > > > even conceptualized. Critical thinking is
                        > > > > > > criticized.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > And questioning is allowed, so long as it isn't
                        > > > > > > questioning the
                        > > > > > > group's assumed authority. Courage is valued, so
                        > > > > > > long as it doesn't
                        > > > > > > venture into frightening new places. Friendships are
                        > > > > > > cherished, so
                        > > > > > > long as those old, established relationships aren't
                        > > > > > > tested. Posts are
                        > > > > > > enjoyed, so long as they don't disrupt the banality.
                        > > > > > > Writing is
                        > > > > > > welcome, so long as it doesn't challenge accepted
                        > > > > > > norms.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Recipes, anyone?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > There is only one approach that will suffice, and it
                        > > > > > > is one of stark,
                        > > > > > > easy contrasts. No shades of grey on the pallete, no
                        > > > > > > nuances of
                        > > > > > > color, no detailed, small brush work. Just big,
                        > > > > > > careless strokes,
                        > > > > > > using the broadest old, fat brush that can be found.
                        > > > > > > And anyone who
                        > > > > > > dares to paint an image that strays from the
                        > > > > > > conventional "wisdom"
                        > > > > > > is...maligned.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I'm guessing I'll soon be banned. Or maybe not.
                        > > > > > > Either way, I'll take
                        > > > > > > it as a compliment.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Leafeater
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > -ate the leaf and left!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > This electronic mail transmission may contain privileged,
                        > > > > > confidential and/or proprietary information intended only
                        > for
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > person(s) named. Any use, distribution, copying or
                        > disclosure
                        > > to
                        > > > > > another person is strictly prohibited. If you are not the
                        > > > > addressee
                        > > > > > indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of
                        > the
                        > > > > message
                        > > > > > to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message
                        > to
                        > > > > anyone.
                        > > > > > In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly
                        > > notify
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > sender by reply email.
                        > > > > >
                        > > ***************************************************************
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > __________________________________________________________
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • ctecvie
                        Leaf, see comments below ... I have snipped some for the sake of brevity, hope that s okay. If you feel that I have taken your comments out of context, just
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 11, 2007
                          Leaf,

                          see comments below ... I have snipped some for the sake of brevity,
                          hope that's okay. If you feel that I have taken your comments out of
                          context, just let me know.

                          > My views are more or less the same as always, although I do
                          >continue
                          > to evolve in my realization of what it means to have left eckankar,
                          > which has come into better and better focus. I've never been the
                          >sort
                          > of person to become frozen and fixed in my perception.

                          ***I'm evolving too, for which I'm grateful. It's just such a relief
                          to be out. It's been over 3 years now. :-)

                          > I don't accept the view that I'm "dishonest" and "narcissistic," or
                          > that I'm advocating a pseudo "unconditional love" or that I'm
                          >similar
                          > to Harold Klemp, that I'm being "enabled" by others who express
                          > support, or that I'm "friendless" and the "worst person" on the
                          > internet discussion groups.

                          ****Okay, Leaf. But this wasn't so from the start. People just gave
                          their points of view at the beginning, and I didn't see anything
                          wrong with what you wrote concerning summer. It was just different
                          (including yours) points of view to be valued, and I think I
                          mentioned as much.

                          > You're absolutely right that I do not accept such views.

                          > Funny, I have at times been treated with more respect on A.R.E. for
                          > differences of opinion than I have on ET or ESA. I've discussed the
                          > same issues there as I have here, and I noticed after ahwile that
                          >if
                          > I expressed myself without using ad hominem attacks (you know,
                          > attacking people in a personal manner, calling them lyers or crazy)
                          >I
                          > was treated in a far better manner.

                          *** Yes, of course. I try to stick to the facts (as I see them of
                          course) as much as possible. Sometimes I do fail, but I think
                          overall I'm being quite fair to people with differing views.

                          > Maybe the difference is they knew
                          > they had to contend with me, that I wasn't going away, and that the
                          > personal attacks on me weren't working. I could be as tenacious
                          >here,
                          > but why would I want to go through that?
                          >
                          > But I think people are pretty much the same everywhere, in terms of
                          > certain basic characteristics. The dynamics on the ex-eckankar
                          >groups
                          > are surprisingly similar to the dynamics on the eckankar groups.

                          *** I think that if the views differ too much than there's no point
                          in coming to a certain group. What would be the good of it? So either
                          I'm basically okay with how a group is, and then I will contribute to
                          the group, or I'm not. Then I will leave it alone. And there's no
                          harm in being respectful either. :-)
                          >
                          > After all, every one posting here who was a member was attracted to
                          > eckankar, which perhaps indicates they may have something in common
                          > in basic temperament with those who are still members. Do those
                          > traits change in people just because they've left eckankar? I doubt
                          > it.

                          *** I don't think that this is necessarily so. I've changed my views
                          considerably since leaving, and I'm very glad about that. But of
                          course there *was* a disposition because otherwise I wouldn't have
                          been attracted to it. And it's important to see this. I think life is
                          a constant evolution which includes work on myself. I'm not perfect
                          but at least I'm working on an honorable task. :-) And then, don't
                          forget that you, too, were part of eckankar once. You say you have
                          changed a lot, but why don't you give us others the benefit of the
                          doubt, at least?
                          >
                          > For example, I notice a strong need for group identity among those
                          > posting here. There are other traits, as well, that I've noticed
                          >that
                          > people posting on the various ex-eckankar and eckankar groups have
                          >in
                          > common.

                          *** Not having the same point of view than you have doesn't mean that
                          everybody has a need for group identity. And look how often people
                          post here, normally?
                          >
                          > But have I changed, as you have suggested? Not really. I never felt
                          > really comfortable posting on the ex-eckankar groups. I always got
                          > the feeling that there were certain things I just couldn't delve
                          > into. Whenever I began to really express what I thought, conflicts
                          > quickly arose. If you notice something different about me, it may
                          >be
                          > that you've never really come face to face with who I really am.

                          *** Really, I was always happy to see you posting. What I've seen of
                          you lately does disappoint me, but never mind - I will survive that,
                          no harm done. And I'm happy for you that you feel yourself - that's
                          the most important thing. And I think this is just not the group for
                          delving into too many personal issues. It's a group to get
                          information about eckankar. There sure are people who are ready to
                          help those who have questions. But that's it.

                          >You
                          > all know me by a completely diffferent venue, one of me standing up
                          > to eckankar on A.R.E. I'm a far more complex person than that. In
                          > this venue of the ex-eckankar groups, there is a different context,
                          > and therefore a different aspect comes into play than on, say,
                          >A.R.E.

                          *** As Sharon mentioned, I think, too, that too many years on a.r.e.
                          do stick. It's mud over there, and I go there very rarely because for
                          me it's always the same old way of discussions which lead to
                          absolutely nothing. And I know you mostly from posting on the ex-
                          eckankar groups. Of course I did read your posts on a.r.e., too,
                          every time I went there.
                          >
                          > I don't like having to conform to any sort of 'group think.' I
                          > realize it is encountered whenever two or more people get together,
                          > whether its a political group, a social group, a religious group,
                          >or
                          > any kind of group. I think most people have an instinct to conform
                          >to
                          > groups enough to "get along" with the group. Studies show this is
                          > true. People will go to extreme lengths to conform, even if it
                          > requires suspension of their usual, preferred patterns of behavior.
                          >
                          > I seem to be somewhat less prone to that, especially after having
                          > left eckankar.

                          *** What I perceived, Leaf, was an extreme need from your side to
                          have somebody with the same view than you. Luckily, Colleen is such a
                          person, and this is good.

                          > But I have to say, what really bothers me is when
                          > people ignore basic common sense in favor of the group's belief
                          > system, come hell or high water. And it seems any group has such
                          > unwritten basic beliefs, rules or accepted norms, and when they're
                          > not followed sufficiently, all hell breaks loose.

                          *** Leaf, I don't want to help Summer - it's as simple as that. But
                          this doesn't mean that I don't want to help other people in need. I
                          just don't like the passive-aggressive type of Summer, and I'd be
                          just not successful if I tried to help people like summer. And as I
                          mentioned over and over in some of my posts, I'm happy that you were
                          ready to help her. But, as we all have seen, it was all about Sharon
                          and not about us, which is fine, too.
                          >
                          > I broke some of those accepted norms here, and we all witnessed
                          >what
                          > happened. I think some of you (one or two in particular) should
                          >know
                          > better.
                          >
                          > That's my view. Others may differ, of course.

                          *** And that's all about it.
                          >
                          > Well, have at it, folks. Like old Sam on A.R.E. used to say, its
                          >like
                          > throwing chop to the geese!

                          *** Yes, indeed ... and you are included in this. :-) And now, I
                          think, I'll rest my case because if not, then it will be the same
                          useless and fruitless discussion as over on a.r.e. Well, it's already
                          developed into that I think, as Sword so wisely mentioned. LOL

                          Be well, Leaf, and please think about your contribution to the
                          development of the situation, too, and don't point the finger in just
                          one direction. And feel free to have the last word on this. :-)

                          Ingrid
                        • colleen
                          Thanks, Leaf, for your support of my expressing my viewpoints here as an individual. That means a lot to me because it is a challenge to speak up as a lone
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 11, 2007
                            Thanks, Leaf, for your support of my expressing my
                            viewpoints here as an individual. That means a lot to
                            me because it is a challenge to speak up as a lone
                            voice in a group. Those of us who have been involved
                            in eckankar have great experience in this area! I've
                            since been involved in other groups with therapists
                            and it's always emphasized through discussion and
                            experience how the lone voice is difficult since we
                            are social beings and the group influence is powerful.
                            I'm also happy that someone found my thoughts
                            acceptable.

                            If you were somehow cast into the scapegoat position
                            here, I don't believe it'll remain a fixed role for
                            you if you may still be so involved. A great book on
                            the subject is Up From Scapegoating, Awakening
                            Consciousness in Groups, by Arthur Colman. I had the
                            privilege to be involved in several of Arthur's
                            groups. On the back cover: "Groups, just like
                            individuals, become conscious and whole only by
                            exploring their deepest, most profound elements --
                            their victims and heroes, their scapegoats and
                            messiahs." Arthur is a pioneer in developing group
                            relations theory and practice in the US and expands on
                            Jung's basic beliefs in the collective unconscious,
                            individuation, and the shadow. I'm always interested
                            in expanding my understanding of groups including
                            those like eckankar.

                            I appreciate your direct communication. It's the
                            communication that doesn't seem direct that puts me on
                            guard.

                            Well, take care. Great that you're getting involved
                            politically. Do you listen to Thom Hartmann on Air
                            America? He's a great progessive thinker and
                            supporter of our constitutional rights. He's on at 9
                            - 12 AM here in the SF Bay area.

                            Best,
                            Colleen

                            --- tomleafeater <tianyue@...> wrote:

                            > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Colleen
                            > Russell"
                            > <colleenmft@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I think it would be a significant loss to ET if
                            > Leaf left. I know
                            > > that I would not be alone in missing his
                            > contributions.
                            > >
                            > > The boat has been rocked.
                            > >
                            > > Leaving Eckankar means leaving the familiarity and
                            > in some ways,the
                            > > comfort of the father's home even if that father
                            > was abusive, in my
                            > > experience. I mean abusive in the sense that one
                            > couldn't separate
                            > > and develop as an adult. This includes using
                            > critical thinking
                            > > skills, setting personal limits, making choices
                            > based on one's
                            > > individual needs.
                            > >
                            > > Can someone have a different opinion and still be
                            > accepted? Or, if
                            > > someone has an opinion that is different from
                            > another's, does it
                            > mean
                            > > that the person is "bad". It's easy for a hero to
                            > become a
                            > scapegoat
                            > > and that's what often happens in groups.
                            > >
                            > > I think that getting back to a more balanced
                            > discussion involves
                            > > tolerating some uncertainties and healthy
                            > (respectful)
                            > disagreements
                            > > as well as agreements in the group.
                            > >
                            > > Colleen
                            >
                            >
                            > Thankyou, Colleen, for what you've written in your
                            > post. I think it
                            > requires a certain degree of personal courage and
                            > integrity, under
                            > the circumstances, to write what you have on this
                            > particular public
                            > forum. Clearly, your opinion is at odds with most
                            > people who actually
                            > post here, and yet you've expressed it anyway. I
                            > truly respect that.
                            > Thanks. I can't tell you how much its appreciated.
                            >
                            > You often have some great and helpful insights which
                            > I know are
                            > valued by people reading the posts here. After the
                            > latest fiasco,
                            > I've recently received some supportive emails, one
                            > of which expressed
                            > appreciation of your contributions here.
                            >
                            > I'm not sure what else to say at the moment.
                            >
                            > I'm working as a volunteer on a political campaign
                            > here in Iowa,
                            > which is really heating up at the moment, as anyone
                            > watching the
                            > national news can witness. I'm really busy these
                            > days. This ET
                            > discussion has been a distraction from these other
                            > activities.
                            >
                            > I don't know what to make of the conflicts on ET.
                            > I'm not willing to
                            > publicly state all my thoughts or impressions, as
                            > you can imagine.
                            > I'm somewhat taken aback by what has happened, but I
                            > have a
                            > meaningful life that has nothing to do with all the
                            > eckankar
                            > nonsense, and it needs my attention.
                            >
                            > Graduating, indeed.
                            >
                            > Leaves, maybe.
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Colleen
                            > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                            > "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
                            > <ctecvie@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Leaf,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I won't use many words to comment your
                            > long-winded post
                            > below ...
                            > > > > Just let me say that there's no need to bring
                            > other ex-eck
                            > groups
                            > > > > into play - and you use a lot of this to
                            > explain why you felt
                            > > > > attacked. I would have preferred had you
                            > remained on what
                            > > happened
                            > > > on
                            > > > > ET because this just gives me the impression
                            > that you don't
                            > have
                            > > > > enough arguments to justify your attacks on
                            > people on ET.
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > The discussion spilled over to that group, and
                            > it refferred and
                            > > > pertained to the discussion here on ET, so it is
                            > completely
                            > > > appropriate that I commented about what was
                            > posted there. Some of
                            > > the
                            > > > people posting here also post there. The
                            > separation between the
                            > two
                            > > > is a bit illusory, since its only a mouse click
                            > away, and delves
                            > > into
                            > > > the same topics. Sharon posts there more than
                            > she does on her own
                            > > > group. In reality, the discussions often
                            > intertwine between the
                            > two
                            > > > groups. And if I'm being slandered there with
                            > the same word for
                            > > word
                            > > > slanders that have occurred on ET, I don't see
                            > any reason why
                            > that
                            > > > should be kept quiet. I'm not living by your
                            > rules. Sorry.
                            > > >
                            > > > As to your assertion I'm lacking arguments in
                            > support of my
                            > views,
                            > > > the truth is there are so many that I only
                            > expressed a fraction
                            > of
                            > > > them.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > And then, as to the attacks - you really use
                            > some vicious words
                            > > in
                            > > > > your post below, calling names and sticking
                            > labels - just the
                            > way
                            > > > you
                            > > > > accuse us all, sweepingly, to have done to
                            > you.
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Yes, I finally decided to tell you what I really
                            > think, after all
                            > > the
                            > > > terrible comments that have been written over
                            > the last few days.
                            > > Did
                            > > > you think I would refrain from answering the
                            > slander forever?
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > Well ... I just can say I have better use of
                            > my time than to
                            > > > respond
                            > > > > further to you. Perhaps it would just be best
                            > for you to leave
                            > ET
                            > > > > instead of going on and on and whining and
                            > complaining about
                            > how
                            > > > bad
                            > > > > we are.
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > I have decided to leave ET soon. In fact, I
                            > decided that long
                            > ago,
                            > > > but wanted to drop in once in awhile with a
                            > comment or two.
                            > > > Obviously, even the most mild of my comments
                            > provokes enormous
                            > > > controversy on this poarticular site, so I have
                            > to agree with you-
                            > -
                            >
                            === message truncated ===


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