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Re: [eckankartruth] Re: Seeking Clarification

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  • John Morton
    Thank you for your eck support. I went to my 20th High school reunion. And it occured to me, SHit I forogt to get married and have kids. I need to borrow some.
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 18, 2007
      Thank you for your eck support. I went to my 20th High school reunion. And it occured to me, SHit I forogt to get married and have kids. I need to borrow some. Boy I have been busy with learning spirituality and college. Not to forget learning guitar like Hendrix
       
      Codey
      Thank you I have

      Colleen Russell <colleenmft@...> wrote:
      -
      Thank you SO MUCH, Sharon, Paul, and ? (if you wish, email me your
      name privately).. ...

      Amazing display of what kept us involved, through internalizing these
      typical mind-controlling beliefs.

      I'll let you all know when my piece on eckankar is published!

      Take care...

      The babies sound delightful, Sharon...(especiall y when you're not the
      primary responsible caregiver, if that is the case!)

      Colleen

      -- In eckankartruth@ yahoogroups. com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Colleen,
      >
      > My old first edition of SKS bk 1. only says "copyright 1970 by Paul
      > Twitchell" There is no ISDN Number nor any specific date.
      >
      > My SKS Bk 2. says "Copyright 1971 by Paul Twitchell". Both books
      > were published by Illuminated Way Press of Las Vegas.
      >
      > Page 91 of SKS1 is a winner. ""to ridicule, scorn or speak
      > mockingly of the words of the mahanta, and to not have faith in him
      > and the cause of eck is to bring woes on the advocator of doubt.
      It
      > brings his karmic progress to a halt, increases his incarnations in
      > this world and causes him to suffor untold hardships."
      >
      > The "Cannot Resign" quote is on top of page 166 in the first
      edition.
      >
      > Sword
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Can you help me confirm the exact date of publishing of The
      > Shariyat
      > > Ki Sugmad, 1st edition, later editions?
      > >
      > > Also,
      > > Twitchell's reference to "the true path of God", where is it
      from,
      > > The The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, p.92? or something like the above
      > > quote....
      > >
      > > And,
      > >
      > > "But once the chela has become a member of the inner circle, he
      > > cannot resign. Those few have found that spiritual decay sets in
      > > immediately, affecting the health, material life and spiritual
      > life,
      > > and brings death more swiftly."
      > >
      > > Is this from the Sharyat Ki Sugmad, Book 2, p. 197, p. 166 in
      > older
      > > editions?
      > >
      > > Do any of you have the books to check?
      > >
      > > Thank you so much....
      > >
      > > I would greatly appreciate you responding at your earliest
      > > convenience.
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Colleen
      > >
      >


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    • colleen
      Hi tygerpurr.... Thank you so much. These are the basis of beliefs formed through mind control that kept us in the web of deception, in my opinion. I m glad
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 19, 2007
        Hi tygerpurr....

        Thank you so much. These are the basis of beliefs
        formed through mind control that kept us in the web of
        deception, in my opinion.

        I'm glad this communication is available.

        Best,
        Colleen

        --- tygerpurr <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        >
        http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/threats.html
        >
        > Fear & Threats: Cult Techniques
        > From Eckankar: Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971,
        > Paul Twitchell,page
        > 94; (c) 1975 Gail Twitchell Gross
        >
        > "The oldest technique of keeping the loyalty of the
        > chela by many
        > teachers is with fear. This is true in the methods
        > of those teachers
        > on the lower plane levels. Because they grow afraid
        > of losing their
        > chelas to a Master on the higher level, the old fear
        > techniques will
        > be drummed into those who desire to move away from
        > psychic plane
        > elements into the God planes. These threats are very
        > common. They
        > usually go like this:
        >
        > --"If you leave me, you will get caught in the
        > astral and won't get out."
        >
        > (Twitchell in the Spiritual Notebook, pg. 196:
        > "Within the
        > Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad is found the quotation 'He who
        > leaves the path of
        > ECK, or refuses to follow it, shall dwell in the
        > astral hells until
        > the Master takes mercy upon him and brings him upon
        > the path again.'"
        >
        > Twitchell in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad #2, pg. 166: "Woe be
        > unto him if
        > he does (resign), for it is known among those who
        > have reached these
        > lofty heights and witnessed the consequences of the
        > few who have.
        > Those few have found that spiritual decay sets in
        > immediately,
        > affecting the health, material life and spiritual
        > life, and brings
        > death more swiftly.")
        >
        >
        >
        > --"Another cliche is: I've got the only path and if
        > you leave it,
        > you're in deep trouble."
        >
        >
        > (Twitchell in IWL, pg. 139: "This is a serious path
        > and must be
        > considered the only way to God."
        >
        > Spiritual Notebook, pg. 195: "Again and again I have
        > pointed out
        > that there is no other path than ECK. It is the
        > original source from
        > which all things spring, and anyone who tries
        > another path is trying
        > to start on a lower rung. It seems foolish for
        > anyone to use his human
        > judgment in trying to select a spiritual path for
        > himself, when it is
        > laid out for him to move onto the original and only
        > path to God."
        >
        > SKS 2, pg. 14: "The teachings of ECK are the pure
        > doctrine in this
        > world. There are no others which can reach the same
        > level as ECK."
        >
        > SKS 2, pg. 17: "Any initiate who violates the tenets
        > of ECKANKAR
        > will automatically be dropped out of ECK. This means
        > that he will be
        > put back in his spiritual unfoldment and will not
        > have any opportunity
        > for growth until the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master,
        > has reinstated him."
        >
        > Letters to a Chela, pg. 107: "Anyone who breaks away
        > from ECK
        > after receiving the initiation into ECK, will have
        > to go through many
        > future lives until he meets the ECK Master again and
        > accepts him to be
        > the Living Eck Master and surrenders to him
        > completely." SKS 2, pg.
        > 182: "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, is the
        > only being who is
        > eligible to make known the true path to God. All
        > others mislead their
        > followers, because they themselves are misled."
        >
        > Twitchell, IWL, pg. 148: "They only increase their
        > karmic debt and
        > lay themselves open to the angers of the psychic
        > world. A few who have
        > left the Master and tried to put themselves in this
        > category have
        > eventually returned to ask for spiritual help.")
        >
        >
        >
        > --"Another one is: I'm the true Master, and having
        > initiated you, will
        > be with you until the end of eternity. I'm your
        > Master always."
        >
        >
        > (
        >
        > Spiritual Notebook, page 202: It makes little
        > difference whether
        > the person who is interested in ECK has read only
        > one book, has just
        > become an initiate, or has passed through all the
        > initiations, the ECK
        > Master is with him constantly."
        >
        > SKS 2, page 9: ""Unless one has come to the Living
        > ECK Master and
        > accepted him in complete faith during one's
        > lifetime, he must serve
        > many lives; meeting with the Mahanta during each
        > life, searching,
        > waiting for another golden opportunity to take up
        > the path of ECK, and
        > to leave this world forever.
        >
        > The opportunity comes again and again for every
        > individual Soul
        > who has spent time in this world. The Mahanta has
        > been with each Soul
        > time and time again, but few accept him. They can
        > neither see nor
        > understand the divine glory which flows through him,
        > which can take
        > each into the heavenly worlds to live forever as
        > Soul.
        >
        > The rejection of the Mahanta is sad indeed, for it
        > means that the
        > seeker must go on looking, reaching and trying to
        > find the heavenly
        > path of ECK and the ECK Master who will take him
        > into the kingdom of
        > the SUGMAD. But he seeks in vain for there will
        > never be anyone but
        > the Mahanta to give him life, to give him the way to
        > the eternal
        > source of ALL things.")
        >
        >
        >
        > These are a few of the techniques of fear used by
        > most teachers of the
        > psychic worlds. We can easily recognize them. The
        > very fact they use
        > such methods to hold their students shows they are
        > afraid of losing
        > out to a true Master. The real Master never drops
        > any hints of
        > reprisal to anyone who shows freedom of will and the
        > capacity of
        > thinking for himself."
        >
        >
        > * * * * *
        >
        > Although Twitchell claims other "masters" are doing
        > this...the
        > discerning reader who studies the "teachings" of
        > Eckankar can clearly
        > see that it is Twitchell, and now Klemp...who use
        > these methods. There
        > are innumerable quotes from both Twitchell's and
        > Klemp's book where
        > they use the each one of the above fear-techniques
        > repeatedly...as
        > this webpage progresses, I will be posting more of
        > these quotes.
        >
        > Angelfire Recommended Sites
        >
        > Angelfire - Free Home Pages
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Colleen
        > Russell"
        > <colleenmft@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > -
        > > Thank you SO MUCH, Sharon, Paul, and ? (if you
        > wish, email me your
        > > name privately).....
        >
        === message truncated ===


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      • Leon Bishop
        Hello all, I am fairly new to this group and would like to say a few things in way of introduction. I am an ECKist, for about 6 years now. I have been wavering
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 20, 2007
          Hello all,

          I am fairly new to this group and would like to say a few things in
          way of introduction. I am an ECKist, for about 6 years now. I have
          been wavering back and forth for most of that time, trying to decide
          whether I want to remain a member of ECKANKAR or not. I have read
          many reasons, written by those who have left. What I like to do, is
          weigh each argument with what I know and feel to be my truth and see
          how it fits. My conclusions thus far have been to remain a member.
          Mostly because I know the benefits I have received from being a
          member. I am not disillusioned into believing that anyone is the only
          God-Man on earth, the one and only representative of God for mankind.
          But I do approach life with an open heart, and listen to my inner
          master (for lack of better word), which I realize is my very own
          higher self. I also am aware that when someone puts enough attention
          on something, the that something begins to manifest itself in his/her
          life. Now with that said, I would like to weigh in on this subject of
          the "threats" in Eckankar's writings.

          I have been deliberating and contemplating these messages you have
          posted here. After much contemplation and deliberation, there appears
          to be that there are two sides to this issue.

          First side being Threats and second side, Warnings.

          On the surface, these two sides may appear to be one and the same,
          but I'd like to address both sides of this issue if I may. First, I
          will post the dictionary's definition of these terms:

          threat,
          –noun 1. a declaration of an intention or determination to inflict
          punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally upon,
          some action or course; menace: He confessed under the threat of
          imprisonment.

          warn·ing,
          –noun 1. the act or utterance of one who warns or the existence,
          appearance, sound, etc., of a thing that warns.


          Now, just suppose that you know of some danger one faces if one
          should act a certain way or do a certain deed. This knowledge was
          probably gained by you through experience by having done the very act
          or deed that exposes such danger to you. Or, if not direct knowledge,
          someone you trusted very much told you of that danger and you had no
          reason not to believe them. Wouldn't you want to warn people about
          this pending danger by saying something like "if you do this certain
          deed, or act a certain way, then you will face this danger!"?

          We all know just how inarticulate Paul Twitchell was. A man of great
          knowledge, but very little expertise in the way to word sentences to
          assure understanding. I do believe that perhaps what is being
          perceived as threats was perhaps warnings. In any case, this is what
          I want to believe because I cannot imagine anyone of such spiritual
          knowledge being able to diliberately mislead people.

          This is just my thoughts on this subject.

          with deepest respect,

          Leon
        • Sharon
          ... decide ... see ... For some odd reason, I flashed to those beaten, bruised, bleeding women who tell the police, ER workers, and crisis volunteers ...but
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 22, 2007
            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hello all,
            >
            > I am fairly new to this group and would like to say a few things in
            > way of introduction. I am an ECKist, for about 6 years now. I have
            > been wavering back and forth for most of that time, trying to
            decide
            > whether I want to remain a member of ECKANKAR or not. I have read
            > many reasons, written by those who have left. What I like to do, is
            > weigh each argument with what I know and feel to be my truth and
            see
            > how it fits.

            For some odd reason, I flashed to those beaten, bruised, bleeding
            women who tell the police, ER workers, and crisis volunteers
            "...but he loooooves me!"

            I give abusers credit for at least "apologizing", declaring their
            love for their victims, and swearing they're sorry and won't do it
            again.


            >My conclusions thus far have been to remain a member.

            Yeah, it makes you feel good to be a "chosen people", doesn't it?

            And the longer you stay, the more enlightened you're gonna get...and
            one of these years you'll get one of those gold ID cards instead of a
            blue one! And you'll get those special secret high-holey HI
            newsletters!!! And you'll get to go to those HI meetings where you
            get carded at the door!! And one day you'll even get to buy an
            Official Clergy pin!!!!!!!



            > Mostly because I know the benefits I have received from being a
            > member.

            Some organizations offer special discounts to card-carrying members.

            I've resisted AARP membership so far. Okay, $12.50 a year isn't much
            but I'm on a tight budget. And guess what I found out!! You do NOT
            have to be an AARP member to get a lower rate on insurance from The
            Hartford!!!!!!!

            It's amazing, but I've learned there's lots of stuff you can get
            absolutely free even though various companies try to convince you
            they're "special" and you can only get them by buying a particular
            product.


            >I am not disillusioned into believing that anyone is the only
            > God-Man on earth, the one and only representative of God for
            mankind.

            Then you don't believe ek-kult's "teachings"!

            "One must either believe in the Living ECK Master or not. If the
            chela doesn't, within a reasonable time, then he should drop out of
            ECK. This is a serious path and must be considered the only way to
            God." Illuminated Way Letters, pg. 139

            "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, is the only being who is
            eligible to make known the true path to God. All others mislead their
            followers, because they themselves are misled." SKS 2, pg. 182

            "No one is worthy of God. It is only through the Grace of the
            supreme SUGMAD that we become worthy. Only the living ECK Master can
            bring this Grace to those who seek IT, for he is the pure instrument
            of God on Earth. So we must keep our faith with the living ECK
            Master and live in his presense as much as possible." SKS I, pg. 19


            > But I do approach life with an open heart, and listen to my inner
            > master (for lack of better word), which I realize is my very own
            > higher self.

            You know, it's amazing how many millions of human beings simply go
            thru life just fine and "naturally" without having to use airy-fairy
            new-age cult jargon.


            >I also am aware that when someone puts enough attention
            > on something, the that something begins to manifest itself in
            >his/her life.

            This isn't true, either. That's why lottery agencies and casinos
            make lots of money from people who put lots of attention on winning.

            I could give you plenty of examples. It doesn't really matter what
            you put your attention on and how much work you put into it. You can
            still get those "kabooms"...of course, if you're a cult member you
            can rationalize with that "karma" bullshit. So instead of having
            your headstone engraved with "...but he loooves me" you can use "The
            conscious memory of my past life transgressions is blocked, but I'm
            sure I deserved it."

            > Now with that said, I would like to weigh in on this subject of
            > the "threats" in Eckankar's writings.
            >
            > I have been deliberating and contemplating these messages you have
            > posted here. After much contemplation and deliberation, there
            appears to be that there are two sides to this issue.
            >
            > First side being Threats and second side, Warnings.
            >
            > On the surface, these two sides may appear to be one and the same,
            > but I'd like to address both sides of this issue if I may. First, I
            > will post the dictionary's definition of these terms:
            >
            > threat,
            > –noun 1. a declaration of an intention or determination to inflict
            > punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally
            upon,
            > some action or course; menace: He confessed under the threat of
            > imprisonment.
            >
            > warn·ing,
            > –noun 1. the act or utterance of one who warns or the existence,
            > appearance, sound, etc., of a thing that warns.
            >
            >
            > Now, just suppose that you know of some danger one faces if one
            > should act a certain way or do a certain deed. This knowledge was
            > probably gained by you through experience by having done the very
            act or deed that exposes such danger to you. Or, if not direct
            knowledge,
            > someone you trusted very much told you of that danger and you had
            no
            > reason not to believe them. Wouldn't you want to warn people about
            > this pending danger by saying something like "if you do this
            certain
            > deed, or act a certain way, then you will face this danger!"?
            >


            I don't know whether to laugh or yawn here.


            > We all know just how inarticulate Paul Twitchell was. A man of
            great
            > knowledge, but very little expertise in the way to word sentences
            to
            > assure understanding.


            Paul Twitchell was a liar, cheat, and a thief.



            >I do believe that perhaps what is being
            > perceived as threats was perhaps warnings.

            Today's assignment:

            Identify the following quotes as "threats" or "warnings", and explain
            why the difference (if any) matters:

            Twitchell in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad #2, pg. 166: "Woe be unto him if
            he does (resign), for it is known among those who have reached these
            lofty heights and witnessed the consequences of the few who have.
            Those few have found that spiritual decay sets in immediately,
            affecting the health, material life and spiritual life, and brings
            death more swiftly."

            "Bring me another beer and then get down on your knees and suck my
            dick or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp."


            "What few would recognize is that the Mahanta prevented the dreamer's
            death. It often happens that a dreamer, who does not have the
            protection of the Mahanta, simply dies in his sleep. The doctor
            writes off the cause as heart failure or some other physical
            condition. Often as not, however, the dreamer had wandered beyond the
            safe limits of his inner world and met a psychic criminal, who was
            responsible for his death. An experience that did not have to be, had
            he known of the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master." (the rest of the
            story's at
            http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html}

            Extra credit essay question: Read the rest of the story. Find some
            statistics on people who die in their sleep "mysteriously" but the
            death certificate says "heart failure" when there's no history of
            heart trouble and the autopsy reveals no heart problems or anything
            else wrong physically. (Adults deaths only, SIDS doesn't count
            because infants can't write checks.) State two possible reasons for
            this story other than getting and keeping members, especially
            superstitious Africans.


            In any case, this is what
            > I want to believe because I cannot imagine anyone of such spiritual
            > knowledge being able to diliberately mislead people.
            >

            Aha!!!!!!!! You got it!!! Maybe you just don't realize it.



            > This is just my thoughts on this subject.
            >

            I know. I went thru the same thing.


            > with deepest respect,
            >

            I respect you too - at least you're thinking about it and not just
            huing yourself into eckanfog!

            Take care & good luck!

            Sharon
          • al_radzik
            ... decide ... see ... only ... mankind. ... attention ... his/her ... Leon, What does Eckankar do for you that you cannot do for yourself? It s like Dorothy s
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 22, 2007
              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hello all,
              >
              > I am fairly new to this group and would like to say a few things in
              > way of introduction. I am an ECKist, for about 6 years now. I have
              > been wavering back and forth for most of that time, trying to
              decide
              > whether I want to remain a member of ECKANKAR or not. I have read
              > many reasons, written by those who have left. What I like to do, is
              > weigh each argument with what I know and feel to be my truth and
              see
              > how it fits. My conclusions thus far have been to remain a member.
              > Mostly because I know the benefits I have received from being a
              > member. I am not disillusioned into believing that anyone is the
              only
              > God-Man on earth, the one and only representative of God for
              mankind.
              > But I do approach life with an open heart, and listen to my inner
              > master (for lack of better word), which I realize is my very own
              > higher self. I also am aware that when someone puts enough
              attention
              > on something, the that something begins to manifest itself in
              his/her
              > life.

              Leon,
              What does Eckankar do for you that you cannot do for yourself? It's
              like Dorothy's red shoes. She always had the ability to go home but
              would not have believed it unless the Good Witch told her. Which
              brings me to my second point. Your "god-man" on Earth Harold Klemp,
              would like you to believe that HE is the only conduit to the Sugmad.
              That's why you must go through him. It can't be you according to Eck
              Teachings.
              The tricky part about Eckankar is that when you read it and listen
              about it it holds some truth to an extent.The reason for that is that
              Twitchell plagiarized many of his teachings and called them his own.
              On top of that, to cover his tracks, he redacted many names like
              Jesus, Moses, Kirpal Singh and other more verifiable and historical
              prophets to become his "fantasy" precedents of Mastership within the
              construct of Eckankar, another bastardized word from the Far East.
              To date no one has EVER recorded the names of Twitchell's "Hierarchy
              of Heavenly Hunkakmunkas" prior to 1965.
              Twitch mixed truth with lies which is why you are still at it but
              haven't realized you can do all this stuff on your own.


              Now with that said, I would like to weigh in on this subject of
              > the "threats" in Eckankar's writings.
              >
              > I have been deliberating and contemplating these messages you have
              > posted here. After much contemplation and deliberation, there
              appears
              > to be that there are two sides to this issue.
              >
              > First side being Threats and second side, Warnings.
              >
              > On the surface, these two sides may appear to be one and the same,
              > but I'd like to address both sides of this issue if I may. First, I
              > will post the dictionary's definition of these terms:
              >
              > threat,
              > –noun 1. a declaration of an intention or determination to inflict
              > punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally
              upon,
              > some action or course; menace: He confessed under the threat of
              > imprisonment.
              >
              > warn·ing,
              > –noun 1. the act or utterance of one who warns or the existence,
              > appearance, sound, etc., of a thing that warns.
              >
              >
              > Now, just suppose that you know of some danger one faces if one
              > should act a certain way or do a certain deed. This knowledge was
              > probably gained by you through experience by having done the very
              act
              > or deed that exposes such danger to you. Or, if not direct
              knowledge,
              > someone you trusted very much told you of that danger and you had
              no
              > reason not to believe them. Wouldn't you want to warn people about
              > this pending danger by saying something like "if you do this
              certain
              > deed, or act a certain way, then you will face this danger!"?

              No, it does not mean that at all. These things being threats OR
              warnings are ways to keep you focused on Eckankar. It is part of the
              brainwashing that every religion uses to some degree.
              You are nitpicking...standing on a whale and fishing for minnows.
              You have to step back; take a deep breath......and engage your reason
              when you evaluate this path. Even though reason is logic, isn't it a
              good tool to use before you walk across the street into an oncoming
              bus? Logially yes. You don't close your eyes and "feel" like it's
              safe to cross the street. You have to engage your sensibilities and
              have faith with reason.


              >
              > We all know just how inarticulate Paul Twitchell was. A man of
              great
              > knowledge, but very little expertise in the way to word sentences
              to
              > assure understanding.

              I don't know about how much knowledge he possessed but he was
              somewhat convincing a few people to join his game. He wanted to be
              mysterious. He felt that was part of his charisma.


              I do believe that perhaps what is being
              > perceived as threats was perhaps warnings. In any case, this is
              what
              > I want to believe because I cannot imagine anyone of such spiritual
              > knowledge being able to diliberately mislead people.

              Are you kidding? Twitchell was a literary thief; exploiter; liar and
              con artist. My favorite explanation of Eckankar is that among the
              incredibly huge volumes of material on other religions and the people
              who have embraced them crushes to the ground, the puerile writings of
              Twitch and even moreso, Klemp. That's why I call it the "MacDonald of
              Religions" Fast,easy and tasty but hardly nutritious.


              Alfji
              >
              > This is just my thoughts on this subject.
              >
              > with deepest respect,
              >
              > Leon


              >
            • Leon Bishop
              Thank you, Sharon! I m working on my assignments... Really and truly, I do realize what you are saying is what you believe and I am trying to come to a final
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 23, 2007
                Thank you, Sharon!

                I'm working on my assignments...

                Really and truly, I do realize what you are saying is what you
                believe and I am trying to come to a final decision of what to
                believe. It's too easy to listen to others' opinions and adopt one
                for self, but this is not me. I will in time come into my own
                realization of the real truth for me on this matter.

                On the surface, it does appear that PT was a pompous ass making just
                about any kind of threat he could to get members to remain members.
                But when one reads the Christian Bible or any other religious
                scriptures, the same things can be seen. That's why I am trying to
                look past the obvious threat to see what is the true message.

                I cannot remember where at the moment that Harold Klemp admits that
                the Mahanta is none other than each individual's higher self, Soul. I
                wish I could, because this pretty much takes most of the threats you
                mentioned below to a different level, more into the realm of warnings
                instead of threats. Of course, then the "Living ECK Master" is
                another item of contention. From other studies made, there appears to
                be more than one of these on earth...known by different titles, of
                course.

                At any rate, I do appreciate your time and effort in trying to help
                me. Your words are not being weighed carefully with due consideration.

                with kindest regards and much love to you,

                Leon



                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" <brighttigress@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello all,
                > >
                > > I am fairly new to this group and would like to say a few things
                in
                > > way of introduction. I am an ECKist, for about 6 years now. I
                have
                > > been wavering back and forth for most of that time, trying to
                > decide
                > > whether I want to remain a member of ECKANKAR or not. I have read
                > > many reasons, written by those who have left. What I like to do,
                is
                > > weigh each argument with what I know and feel to be my truth and
                > see
                > > how it fits.
                >
                > For some odd reason, I flashed to those beaten, bruised, bleeding
                > women who tell the police, ER workers, and crisis volunteers
                > "...but he loooooves me!"
                >
                > I give abusers credit for at least "apologizing", declaring their
                > love for their victims, and swearing they're sorry and won't do it
                > again.
                >
                >
                > >My conclusions thus far have been to remain a member.
                >
                > Yeah, it makes you feel good to be a "chosen people", doesn't it?
                >
                > And the longer you stay, the more enlightened you're gonna
                get...and
                > one of these years you'll get one of those gold ID cards instead of
                a
                > blue one! And you'll get those special secret high-holey HI
                > newsletters!!! And you'll get to go to those HI meetings where you
                > get carded at the door!! And one day you'll even get to buy an
                > Official Clergy pin!!!!!!!
                >
                >
                >
                > > Mostly because I know the benefits I have received from being a
                > > member.
                >
                > Some organizations offer special discounts to card-carrying members.
                >
                > I've resisted AARP membership so far. Okay, $12.50 a year isn't
                much
                > but I'm on a tight budget. And guess what I found out!! You do NOT
                > have to be an AARP member to get a lower rate on insurance from The
                > Hartford!!!!!!!
                >
                > It's amazing, but I've learned there's lots of stuff you can get
                > absolutely free even though various companies try to convince you
                > they're "special" and you can only get them by buying a particular
                > product.
                >
                >
                > >I am not disillusioned into believing that anyone is the only
                > > God-Man on earth, the one and only representative of God for
                > mankind.
                >
                > Then you don't believe ek-kult's "teachings"!
                >
                > "One must either believe in the Living ECK Master or not. If the
                > chela doesn't, within a reasonable time, then he should drop out of
                > ECK. This is a serious path and must be considered the only way to
                > God." Illuminated Way Letters, pg. 139
                >
                > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, is the only being who is
                > eligible to make known the true path to God. All others mislead
                their
                > followers, because they themselves are misled." SKS 2, pg. 182
                >
                > "No one is worthy of God. It is only through the Grace of the
                > supreme SUGMAD that we become worthy. Only the living ECK Master
                can
                > bring this Grace to those who seek IT, for he is the pure
                instrument
                > of God on Earth. So we must keep our faith with the living ECK
                > Master and live in his presense as much as possible." SKS I, pg. 19
                >
                >
                > > But I do approach life with an open heart, and listen to my inner
                > > master (for lack of better word), which I realize is my very own
                > > higher self.
                >
                > You know, it's amazing how many millions of human beings simply go
                > thru life just fine and "naturally" without having to use airy-
                fairy
                > new-age cult jargon.
                >
                >
                > >I also am aware that when someone puts enough attention
                > > on something, the that something begins to manifest itself in
                > >his/her life.
                >
                > This isn't true, either. That's why lottery agencies and casinos
                > make lots of money from people who put lots of attention on
                winning.
                >
                > I could give you plenty of examples. It doesn't really matter what
                > you put your attention on and how much work you put into it. You
                can
                > still get those "kabooms"...of course, if you're a cult member you
                > can rationalize with that "karma" bullshit. So instead of having
                > your headstone engraved with "...but he loooves me" you can
                use "The
                > conscious memory of my past life transgressions is blocked, but I'm
                > sure I deserved it."
                >
                > > Now with that said, I would like to weigh in on this subject of
                > > the "threats" in Eckankar's writings.
                > >
                > > I have been deliberating and contemplating these messages you
                have
                > > posted here. After much contemplation and deliberation, there
                > appears to be that there are two sides to this issue.
                > >
                > > First side being Threats and second side, Warnings.
                > >
                > > On the surface, these two sides may appear to be one and the
                same,
                > > but I'd like to address both sides of this issue if I may. First,
                I
                > > will post the dictionary's definition of these terms:
                > >
                > > threat,
                > > –noun 1. a declaration of an intention or determination to
                inflict
                > > punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally
                > upon,
                > > some action or course; menace: He confessed under the threat of
                > > imprisonment.
                > >
                > > warn·ing,
                > > –noun 1. the act or utterance of one who warns or the existence,
                > > appearance, sound, etc., of a thing that warns.
                > >
                > >
                > > Now, just suppose that you know of some danger one faces if one
                > > should act a certain way or do a certain deed. This knowledge was
                > > probably gained by you through experience by having done the very
                > act or deed that exposes such danger to you. Or, if not direct
                > knowledge,
                > > someone you trusted very much told you of that danger and you had
                > no
                > > reason not to believe them. Wouldn't you want to warn people
                about
                > > this pending danger by saying something like "if you do this
                > certain
                > > deed, or act a certain way, then you will face this danger!"?
                > >
                >
                >
                > I don't know whether to laugh or yawn here.
                >
                >
                > > We all know just how inarticulate Paul Twitchell was. A man of
                > great
                > > knowledge, but very little expertise in the way to word sentences
                > to
                > > assure understanding.
                >
                >
                > Paul Twitchell was a liar, cheat, and a thief.
                >
                >
                >
                > >I do believe that perhaps what is being
                > > perceived as threats was perhaps warnings.
                >
                > Today's assignment:
                >
                > Identify the following quotes as "threats" or "warnings", and
                explain
                > why the difference (if any) matters:
                >
                > Twitchell in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad #2, pg. 166: "Woe be unto him if
                > he does (resign), for it is known among those who have reached these
                > lofty heights and witnessed the consequences of the few who have.
                > Those few have found that spiritual decay sets in immediately,
                > affecting the health, material life and spiritual life, and brings
                > death more swiftly."
                >
                > "Bring me another beer and then get down on your knees and suck my
                > dick or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp."
                >
                >
                > "What few would recognize is that the Mahanta prevented the
                dreamer's
                > death. It often happens that a dreamer, who does not have the
                > protection of the Mahanta, simply dies in his sleep. The doctor
                > writes off the cause as heart failure or some other physical
                > condition. Often as not, however, the dreamer had wandered beyond
                the
                > safe limits of his inner world and met a psychic criminal, who was
                > responsible for his death. An experience that did not have to be,
                had
                > he known of the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master." (the rest of the
                > story's at
                > http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html}
                >
                > Extra credit essay question: Read the rest of the story. Find
                some
                > statistics on people who die in their sleep "mysteriously" but the
                > death certificate says "heart failure" when there's no history of
                > heart trouble and the autopsy reveals no heart problems or anything
                > else wrong physically. (Adults deaths only, SIDS doesn't count
                > because infants can't write checks.) State two possible reasons
                for
                > this story other than getting and keeping members, especially
                > superstitious Africans.
                >
                >
                > In any case, this is what
                > > I want to believe because I cannot imagine anyone of such
                spiritual
                > > knowledge being able to diliberately mislead people.
                > >
                >
                > Aha!!!!!!!! You got it!!! Maybe you just don't realize it.
                >
                >
                >
                > > This is just my thoughts on this subject.
                > >
                >
                > I know. I went thru the same thing.
                >
                >
                > > with deepest respect,
                > >
                >
                > I respect you too - at least you're thinking about it and not just
                > huing yourself into eckanfog!
                >
                > Take care & good luck!
                >
                > Sharon
                >
              • tygerpurr
                It seems that they have succeeded in keeping you in your place as a well behaved ECKIST SLAVE who does not complain about anything, question anything or
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 25, 2007
                  It seems that they have succeeded in keeping you in your place as a
                  well behaved ECKIST SLAVE who does not complain about anything,
                  question anything or discern for yourself what is truth and what is
                  false. A good CON likes someone like you because you are easily
                  manipulated by slight of hand, and then it seems you clap and applaud
                  with delight. It takes true courage to admit when you are mistaken and
                  that you have been lied to, and yes, in fact THREATENED.

                  Wish you the best and that you wake up to the excitement of Life.

                  Tygerpurr ; )

                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you, Sharon!
                  >
                  > I'm working on my assignments...
                  >
                  > Really and truly, I do realize what you are saying is what you
                  > believe and I am trying to come to a final decision of what to
                  > believe. It's too easy to listen to others' opinions and adopt one
                  > for self, but this is not me. I will in time come into my own
                  > realization of the real truth for me on this matter.
                  >
                  > On the surface, it does appear that PT was a pompous ass making just
                  > about any kind of threat he could to get members to remain members.
                  > But when one reads the Christian Bible or any other religious
                  > scriptures, the same things can be seen. That's why I am trying to
                  > look past the obvious threat to see what is the true message.
                  >
                  > I cannot remember where at the moment that Harold Klemp admits that
                  > the Mahanta is none other than each individual's higher self, Soul. I
                  > wish I could, because this pretty much takes most of the threats you
                  > mentioned below to a different level, more into the realm of warnings
                  > instead of threats. Of course, then the "Living ECK Master" is
                  > another item of contention. From other studies made, there appears to
                  > be more than one of these on earth...known by different titles, of
                  > course.
                  >
                  > At any rate, I do appreciate your time and effort in trying to help
                  > me. Your words are not being weighed carefully with due consideration.
                  >
                  > with kindest regards and much love to you,
                  >
                  > Leon
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" <brighttigress@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello all,
                  > > >
                  > > > I am fairly new to this group and would like to say a few things
                  > in
                  > > > way of introduction. I am an ECKist, for about 6 years now. I
                  > have
                  > > > been wavering back and forth for most of that time, trying to
                  > > decide
                  > > > whether I want to remain a member of ECKANKAR or not. I have read
                  > > > many reasons, written by those who have left. What I like to do,
                  > is
                  > > > weigh each argument with what I know and feel to be my truth and
                  > > see
                  > > > how it fits.
                  > >
                  > > For some odd reason, I flashed to those beaten, bruised, bleeding
                  > > women who tell the police, ER workers, and crisis volunteers
                  > > "...but he loooooves me!"
                  > >
                  > > I give abusers credit for at least "apologizing", declaring their
                  > > love for their victims, and swearing they're sorry and won't do it
                  > > again.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >My conclusions thus far have been to remain a member.
                  > >
                  > > Yeah, it makes you feel good to be a "chosen people", doesn't it?
                  > >
                  > > And the longer you stay, the more enlightened you're gonna
                  > get...and
                  > > one of these years you'll get one of those gold ID cards instead of
                  > a
                  > > blue one! And you'll get those special secret high-holey HI
                  > > newsletters!!! And you'll get to go to those HI meetings where you
                  > > get carded at the door!! And one day you'll even get to buy an
                  > > Official Clergy pin!!!!!!!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Mostly because I know the benefits I have received from being a
                  > > > member.
                  > >
                  > > Some organizations offer special discounts to card-carrying members.
                  > >
                  > > I've resisted AARP membership so far. Okay, $12.50 a year isn't
                  > much
                  > > but I'm on a tight budget. And guess what I found out!! You do NOT
                  > > have to be an AARP member to get a lower rate on insurance from The
                  > > Hartford!!!!!!!
                  > >
                  > > It's amazing, but I've learned there's lots of stuff you can get
                  > > absolutely free even though various companies try to convince you
                  > > they're "special" and you can only get them by buying a particular
                  > > product.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >I am not disillusioned into believing that anyone is the only
                  > > > God-Man on earth, the one and only representative of God for
                  > > mankind.
                  > >
                  > > Then you don't believe ek-kult's "teachings"!
                  > >
                  > > "One must either believe in the Living ECK Master or not. If the
                  > > chela doesn't, within a reasonable time, then he should drop out of
                  > > ECK. This is a serious path and must be considered the only way to
                  > > God." Illuminated Way Letters, pg. 139
                  > >
                  > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, is the only being who is
                  > > eligible to make known the true path to God. All others mislead
                  > their
                  > > followers, because they themselves are misled." SKS 2, pg. 182
                  > >
                  > > "No one is worthy of God. It is only through the Grace of the
                  > > supreme SUGMAD that we become worthy. Only the living ECK Master
                  > can
                  > > bring this Grace to those who seek IT, for he is the pure
                  > instrument
                  > > of God on Earth. So we must keep our faith with the living ECK
                  > > Master and live in his presense as much as possible." SKS I, pg. 19
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > But I do approach life with an open heart, and listen to my inner
                  > > > master (for lack of better word), which I realize is my very own
                  > > > higher self.
                  > >
                  > > You know, it's amazing how many millions of human beings simply go
                  > > thru life just fine and "naturally" without having to use airy-
                  > fairy
                  > > new-age cult jargon.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >I also am aware that when someone puts enough attention
                  > > > on something, the that something begins to manifest itself in
                  > > >his/her life.
                  > >
                  > > This isn't true, either. That's why lottery agencies and casinos
                  > > make lots of money from people who put lots of attention on
                  > winning.
                  > >
                  > > I could give you plenty of examples. It doesn't really matter what
                  > > you put your attention on and how much work you put into it. You
                  > can
                  > > still get those "kabooms"...of course, if you're a cult member you
                  > > can rationalize with that "karma" bullshit. So instead of having
                  > > your headstone engraved with "...but he loooves me" you can
                  > use "The
                  > > conscious memory of my past life transgressions is blocked, but I'm
                  > > sure I deserved it."
                  > >
                  > > > Now with that said, I would like to weigh in on this subject of
                  > > > the "threats" in Eckankar's writings.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have been deliberating and contemplating these messages you
                  > have
                  > > > posted here. After much contemplation and deliberation, there
                  > > appears to be that there are two sides to this issue.
                  > > >
                  > > > First side being Threats and second side, Warnings.
                  > > >
                  > > > On the surface, these two sides may appear to be one and the
                  > same,
                  > > > but I'd like to address both sides of this issue if I may. First,
                  > I
                  > > > will post the dictionary's definition of these terms:
                  > > >
                  > > > threat,
                  > > > –noun 1. a declaration of an intention or determination to
                  > inflict
                  > > > punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally
                  > > upon,
                  > > > some action or course; menace: He confessed under the threat of
                  > > > imprisonment.
                  > > >
                  > > > warn·ing,
                  > > > –noun 1. the act or utterance of one who warns or the existence,
                  > > > appearance, sound, etc., of a thing that warns.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Now, just suppose that you know of some danger one faces if one
                  > > > should act a certain way or do a certain deed. This knowledge was
                  > > > probably gained by you through experience by having done the very
                  > > act or deed that exposes such danger to you. Or, if not direct
                  > > knowledge,
                  > > > someone you trusted very much told you of that danger and you had
                  > > no
                  > > > reason not to believe them. Wouldn't you want to warn people
                  > about
                  > > > this pending danger by saying something like "if you do this
                  > > certain
                  > > > deed, or act a certain way, then you will face this danger!"?
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I don't know whether to laugh or yawn here.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > We all know just how inarticulate Paul Twitchell was. A man of
                  > > great
                  > > > knowledge, but very little expertise in the way to word sentences
                  > > to
                  > > > assure understanding.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Paul Twitchell was a liar, cheat, and a thief.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >I do believe that perhaps what is being
                  > > > perceived as threats was perhaps warnings.
                  > >
                  > > Today's assignment:
                  > >
                  > > Identify the following quotes as "threats" or "warnings", and
                  > explain
                  > > why the difference (if any) matters:
                  > >
                  > > Twitchell in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad #2, pg. 166: "Woe be unto him if
                  > > he does (resign), for it is known among those who have reached these
                  > > lofty heights and witnessed the consequences of the few who have.
                  > > Those few have found that spiritual decay sets in immediately,
                  > > affecting the health, material life and spiritual life, and brings
                  > > death more swiftly."
                  > >
                  > > "Bring me another beer and then get down on your knees and suck my
                  > > dick or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "What few would recognize is that the Mahanta prevented the
                  > dreamer's
                  > > death. It often happens that a dreamer, who does not have the
                  > > protection of the Mahanta, simply dies in his sleep. The doctor
                  > > writes off the cause as heart failure or some other physical
                  > > condition. Often as not, however, the dreamer had wandered beyond
                  > the
                  > > safe limits of his inner world and met a psychic criminal, who was
                  > > responsible for his death. An experience that did not have to be,
                  > had
                  > > he known of the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master." (the rest of the
                  > > story's at
                  > > http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html}
                  > >
                  > > Extra credit essay question: Read the rest of the story. Find
                  > some
                  > > statistics on people who die in their sleep "mysteriously" but the
                  > > death certificate says "heart failure" when there's no history of
                  > > heart trouble and the autopsy reveals no heart problems or anything
                  > > else wrong physically. (Adults deaths only, SIDS doesn't count
                  > > because infants can't write checks.) State two possible reasons
                  > for
                  > > this story other than getting and keeping members, especially
                  > > superstitious Africans.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > In any case, this is what
                  > > > I want to believe because I cannot imagine anyone of such
                  > spiritual
                  > > > knowledge being able to diliberately mislead people.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > Aha!!!!!!!! You got it!!! Maybe you just don't realize it.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > This is just my thoughts on this subject.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I know. I went thru the same thing.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > with deepest respect,
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I respect you too - at least you're thinking about it and not just
                  > > huing yourself into eckanfog!
                  > >
                  > > Take care & good luck!
                  > >
                  > > Sharon
                  > >
                  >
                • Sharon
                  Hi All! It takes guts for an admitted cult member to come here and post their questions openly and honestly. I made up my mind relatively quickly after
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 26, 2007
                    Hi All!
                     
                    It takes guts for an admitted cult member to come here and post their questions openly and honestly.  I made up my mind relatively quickly after getting on the internet. I did tons of research, especially in the a.r.e. archives, studying & thinking about "both sides", and going back over the eckbooks and discourses very objectively.  I had lots of "ecksperiences" too - which, when examined, were clearly not anywhere approaching the quality and trueness of the pre-cult experiences which led to my searching & joining.  I think it would be impossible to make a list of everything involved in my decision to leave.   Another big factor was looking at the "fruits" - laughing here, after I typed that I got the double meaning, and there truly are a lot of eckist "fruitcakes" but that's not what I meant.  I meant the fruit of the "tree" - eckists versus those who leave.   It was quite clear that there's truly no love in ekult.  The fruit may look nice, but it's rotten and poison.  Sometimes it's low-dose poison that just results in a fog.
                     
                    Laughing here, because even the nastiness on both sides helped.  On the surface, Alf was a foaming-at-the-mouth vicious beast and one of my first experiences at a.r.e. was a nasty personal email from him.  But the bitch-slap approach truly helped to wake me up.
                     
                    But the bottom line is, I made the decision as "Soul",   No, not that meaningless cult buzzword.  I mean what I now consider "Soul", what I truly am.  And that's *all* of me, physical and non-physical, all aspects of mySelf, what the cult calls "higher" and "lower", just to keep you trapped on that hamster-wheel they call "spiritual growth".
                     
                    Oh, Leon - one little thing I have to laugh about, your mentioning the threats in the Bible.  Don't you think it's a bit silly to use that to rationalize ekult's threats?   That's like saying what Jeffrey Dahmer did is okay because John Wayne Gacy did it first, and did more of it.  C'mon, ekult generally has nothing good to say about Christianity or any other religion and their scriptures - unless it's to rationalize its own "shortcomings" or if Klemps feels like quoting the Bible (claiming some of it *is* the eck in a lower form), or Twitch claiming the 25th Psalm is really Lai Tsi's prayer.
                     
                    It's a lot easier as an eckist, the "knowing", having an answer for everything, eckbuzz, warm fuzzy ecklalaland, etc.   To this day, I know a few eckists who I hope are able to keep it up, because I honesty don't think they could function without their illusions, and it's sort of sad that this kind ever became acquainted with those "inconvenient truths".  But that's okay-it's sort of like diabetics needing insulin.  They're genuinely good people. 
                     
                    I think maybe what it boils down to is you need to be brutally honest with and about yourself.  And that ain't easy, and it's not always pleasant.   And I suspect that sometimes, honesty isn't necessarily a good thing.  It just depends.
                     
                    Well, that's it for now - my mind's wandering off elsewhere!
                     
                    Have a great day, everyone!
                     
                    Hugs,
                     
                    Sharon
                  • tomleafeater
                    ... Assignments? Are you in Sunday school? I wouldn t bother with any assignments. Just learn to use your head. Learn critical thinking. Don t be a sap. Don t
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 27, 2007


                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thank you, Sharon!
                      >
                      > I'm working on my assignments...

                       

                      Assignments? Are you in Sunday school? I wouldn't bother with any assignments. Just learn to use your head. Learn critical thinking. Don't be a sap. Don't be someone's pawn.  That's no assignment. Critical thinking is a requirement that life demands from the onset of puberty, lest you become rolled over by every con artist that is fortunate to discover your gullibilities.


                      >
                      > Really and truly, I do realize what you are saying is what you
                      > believe and I am trying to come to a final decision of what to
                      > believe. It's too easy to listen to others' opinions and adopt one
                      > for self, but this is not me. I will in time come into my own
                      > realization of the real truth for me on this matter.
                      >

                      Okay....that is just what you think people want to hear, right? That you're sincere? But, as you know, you deliberately show your hand at the end of your post. See below.

                      > On the surface, it does appear that PT was a pompous ass making just
                      > about any kind of threat he could to get members to remain members.
                      > But when one reads the Christian Bible or any other religious
                      > scriptures, the same things can be seen. That's why I am trying to
                      > look past the obvious threat to see what is the true message.
                      >

                       

                      Yes, the Christian faith also uses threats.  Bad ones.  Really bad ones.  Burning in hell for eternity for the non-follower.  Similar to reincarnating for eons in the lower Kal worlds if you don't accept...Eckankar.

                      So, because other equally manipulative and devious religions use threats, that makes it okay?

                      Yes, Christianity uses threats.

                      That why I'm not Christian.

                      Wake up and smell the coffee. Or the green tea. The caffeinated beverage of your choice. Christianity has wrecked the lives of thousands, if not tens of millions of people. Or perhaps even more. Think of the crusades. Think of the Spanish inquisition. Think of the racism over the years, the gay bashing, the misogynism, the torture (yeah, popular again in our country).

                      Do you really think its wise to use Christianity as a model to excuse Eckankar's bad behavior?

                       


                      > I cannot remember where at the moment that Harold Klemp admits that
                      > the Mahanta is none other than each individual's higher self, Soul. I
                      > wish I could, because this pretty much takes most of the threats you
                      > mentioned below to a different level, more into the realm of warnings
                      > instead of threats. Of course, then the "Living ECK Master" is
                      > another item of contention. From other studies made, there appears to
                      > be more than one of these on earth...known by different titles, of
                      > course.
                      >

                      There are a lot of statements from Klemp that disprove your claims. It takes time to dig them up, but here's something that is close at hand.   The following is a verbatim copy of Klemp's article which appeared in the Mystic World, December, 1998 (by the way, I pulled this out of the A.R.E. archives with key words in the search, so the key words may still be highlighted after the cut and paste. And if you want to read the entire thread, click on the link):

                      http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_frm/thread/5a2f0d53e60fed88/07540ba0c848ba91?lnk=gst&q=savior+of+the+worlds+of+god%2C+tianyue#07540ba0c848ba91

                      "The Chosen People... You are one of them. Read chapter seven of The Spiritual Notebook, "the Steps to the Secret Kingdom." Its your homework. There you will find out what makes you an heir to the keys of heaven."

                      Here's chapter seven of The Spiritual Notebook that Klemp referred to:

                      "As the instrument for this greatest spiritual power within all universes, we must take hold of the basic idea that we are the chosen people. This makes us different from all the others in this world, and we must look upon ourselves as heirs to the keys to heaven. We are the kings and queens of the earthly realm, appointed by the divine SUGMAD to take our places here as ITS
                      representatives. We are to act as Godly instruments through which the ECK flows to the world and uplifts humanity.

                      By divine right we have become the chosen people. And, because we have accepted the responsibility of carrying out the will of god, it is necessary that that we have the faith and knowledge of being the people of God. Those who do not belong in the spiritual works of ECK have either rejected this path or do not know of it. They will have to wait until the time is ready for each to accept the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master.

                      These people are in a sort of limbo, whether it is in the past or modern times. They will go through lifetime after lifetime wondering why they must suffer, for the Angel of Death does not listen to their cries for mercy but places them back into another life, to pay for their karma."

                      Spiritual Notebook, pg. 117-118

                      So much for Klemp's comment of choice:

                      "The purpose of the teachings of ECK is to give us the freedom to
                      choose our own way in our life." --Klemp

                      People who don't choose Eckankar have this happen to them:

                      "These people are in a sort of limbo, whether it is in the past or
                      modern times. They will go through lifetime after lifetime wondering
                      why they must suffer, for the Angel of Death does not listen to their
                      cries for mercy but places them back into another life, to pay for
                      their karma."
                      --
                      Klemp's recommended reading from the Spiritual Notebook

                      Sounds more like, "my way or the highway"...

                      The threats of what happens to people who simply choose a different path are practically dripping off page after page in the eckankar writings.  For example, Klemp states former eckists are actually suffering from three ills. So ex-eckists are sick? That quite a thing to say about those who decide to leave a teacher. If eckankar is so attractive and wonderful, and so rewarding, why must its leaders resort to scaring people with awful, existential threats of doom and gloom to keep them on the path? Wouldn't fear be the technique of, say, the Kal? Yet the so-called eck masters use fear to create psychological dependence in the followers.

                      How grandiose are Eckankar leaders' vision of themselves? Read and see. This excerpt is from Letter's To a Chela, written for the hardcore member. It was supposed to be the unvarnished truth, not intended for public consumption:

                      "The mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles, beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all those who are the faithful within the ECK (sic). At the same time,
                      He  must overlook and see that those in the churches and various faiths are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks at the major disasters, earthquakes, wars
                      and other problems of mankind as part of His duty to work out the karmic conditions of the human race. Not only does He become the upholder and the inspiration to the human race on
                      earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on other planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the
                      higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is light-hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world conditions, He is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and guarding those nearest His heart, and the populations of the various worlds, planes and universes.

                      Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior, but that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and the spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is not the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual body which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body of all the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and because the ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which flows out of the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is the spiritual body which is in all things and which is the creative function of life. Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His physical body is the only representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "  

                      -Letter to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell


                      > At any rate, I do appreciate your time and effort in trying to help
                      > me. Your words are not being weighed carefully with due consideration.
                      >
                      > with kindest regards and much love to you,
                      >
                      > Leon
                      >

                      I'm not sure, having not read all the posts here lately, but did no one notice this? I'm particularly fascinated by this remark you made, just above:

                      "Your words are NOT [caps mine] being weighed carefully with due consideration."

                      I think you've summed up the matter nicely with that last statement. Well said. We get it. You're not at all interested in a real discussion, you're just trying to play with our heads (hee, hee).  Well, that may be fun for you, I suppose. You've learned well from your teachers--the art of playing with peoples' heads, that is. Even you are using the deceptive sleight of hand.  Bravo. Makes me feel sooo warm inside about eckankar.

                      Leafeater

                      PS:

                      If all that I've written here isn't enough, here's a repost from A.R.E that I wrote a long time ago. I haven't read all that has been posted here lately, so some of this may have laready been posted, since the A.R.E. archives are often used as a reference.

                      I was replying to Doug and some others about an interview of Paul T. by a reporter. Here's the link of the entire thread:

                      http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_frm/thread/bf63c7a501540a3f/3b819eac64d588d1?#3b819eac64d588d1

                      Here are the same the questions PT's interviewer posed, but with the
                      answers given through out Paul Twitchell's books, in which we see a
                      very different PT than the one talking to a reporter. PT was a public
                      relations man, and he knew when it was in his interests to tone down
                      his rhetoric. But when writing to the true believers, he let his real
                      intentions become extraordinarily clear. The difference between off
                      the cuff answers and those published is that the latter are statements
                      PT had ample time to ponder and consider, and are much more definitive
                      since he knew these would be his published words:

                      Also included in my response is an example or PT's doublespeak, in
                      which he gives out conflicting messages. His technique of creating
                      cognitive dissonance in his students with conflicting messages does
                      work quite well to keep students on the path. His interview answers
                      which he gave to the two questions reveal a person willing to say
                      whatever was necessary to keep peaple off balance and confused.
                      Several more examples follow at the end of my response.

                      QUESTION: Would you declare that Eckankar offers the only path to God?

                      "Since everything in this physical universe is controlled by Kal
                      Niranjan (the negative power), we have nothing that can say it
                      represents the ultimate in the perfect sense, except ECKANKAR (sic)."

                      -Sharyat Ki Sugmad, Book 1, chapter 6, by Paul Twitchell

                      "By the Eck alone the chela can transcend all the lower regions and
                      rise into the heavenly world of the Sugmad. Without the Mahanta, the
                      Living Eck Master, no one can attain conscious union with the stream
                      of pure life, nor can he go further than the first region of light,
                      which is the astral."

                      -Paul Twitchell, The Spiritual Notebook

                      "All religions, philosphies, and sacred doctrines are the offsprings
                      of Eckankar."

                      -Letters to a Chela, discourse 4, page 1, by Paul Twitchell

                      "You [the eckankar follower reading Letters to a Chela] are superior
                      in your knowledge and thinking over all others who are not in
                      Eckankar."

                      -Letters to a Chela, discourse 4, page 1, by Paul Twitchell

                      "The Living ECK (sic) Master is always higher on the spiritual scale
                      of God than any of the saints of the worldly religions."

                      -Sharyat Ki Sugmad, Book 1, chapter 6, by Paul Twitchell

                      QUESTION: Then it would not be necessary to have a master after one
                      has truly accomplished soul travel and learned its precepts?

                      "Every living ECK master chooses his chelas and few are let go. If
                      they do wish to go, it means they leave voluntarily and it is mutually
                      agreed upon. If the chela decides to leave the living ECK Master on
                      his own without first discussing it, then he has problems to face
                      which are more severe than ever. He has left the Master and gone into
                      the wilderness alone to face the wild beasts which will devour him. It
                      is typical of the vain chela to announce that he is leaving without
                      asking permission."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 144

                      If any Soul who is a chela or initiate leaves the path of Eck for
                      another way to the heavenly worlds he must expect his karma to be
                      extended. His karmic burden increases as he gathers more, going
                      through incarnation after incarnation, He will again someday meet with
                      the Living Eck Master, when ready. (SKS 1, 97)

                      At no time does the Mahanta ever leave one who has become his charge,
                      regardless of whether or not the chela tries to break his ties.

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 65

                      Those who need the Living ECK Master will always stay with him, but
                      those who feel that they are beyond this are wrong in their thinking.
                      They have not examined the truth, and will go afoul of the illusions
                      established by the Kal.

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 170

                      TIAN YUE RESPONDS:

                      So, one must ask permission to leave. One must first "discuss" leaving
                      the Master. If the chela doesn't ask for permission, and discuss
                      leaving with the master, which implies a degree of servitude and
                      obediance expected from Twitchell, then the chela will be devoured by
                      beasts!  And chelas who don't ask for permission are vain. I see.

                      Whoa there, Maestro. Thou doest presume far too much. And thou doest
                      reveal much, as well.

                      This is an extreme example of the threats laid upon the chela, as well
                      as more examples of doublespeak. Notice he says leaving is voluntary
                      on one hand, but on the other permission is required. And if
                      permission isn't requested and actually discussed, wild beasts will
                      devour the chela, and problems will be severe. Implied is a power the
                      master has to grant safe passage to the chela who wishes to go. This
                      requirement for permission is quite ominous, if one thinks about it.
                      Permission? Permission more than implies the Master has power over the
                      chela. Wild beasts? Wilderness? Being eaten? Severe problems? My lord,
                      are we still in the dark ages?

                      Here's another way of putting this. I've decided to interview PT with
                      a few questions. His answers were found in his published works. The
                      difference between off the cuff answers and those published is that
                      the latter are statements PT had ample time to ponder and consider,
                      and are much more definitive since he knew these would be his
                      published words:

                      QUESTION: WHAT HAPPENS, PT, IF ONE OF YOUR STUDENTS LEAVES ECKANKAR?

                      [TECHNIQUE ONE - IF YOU LEAVE ME YOU WILL BE CAUGHT IN THE ASTRAL.]

                      "Should physical death come before man finds liberation, he will go
                      through a period in the Astral world {...}until he is given rebirth
                      again." "He does this over and over again until one day he meets again
                      with the Living ECK Master."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 132

                      "If any Soul who is a chela or initiate leaves the path of Eck for
                      another way to the heavenly worlds he must expect his karma to be
                      extended. His karmic burden increases as he gathers more, going
                      through incarnation after incarnation, He will again someday meet with
                      the Living Eck Master, when ready."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 97

                      "No one can get his release from the net of karma without the Living
                      ECK Master."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 140

                      "Should Soul cease to spiritually unfold It will, after the death of
                      the body, go into the seven worlds of Avernus, the dark realm of the
                      Astral Plane where many evil Souls must spend time. <snip>  After he
                      has met the Living ECK Master he will never have to reincarnate on
                      this plane nor in any of the underworld planes."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 146

                      "If a chela decides to leave the Living ECK Master on his own without
                      first discussing it, then he has problems to face which are more
                      severe than ever. He has left the ECK Master and gone into the
                      wilderness alone to face the wild beasts which will devour him."

                       -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 172

                      QUESTION: DO ECK MASTERS REPRESENT THE ONLY WAY TO GOD?

                      [TECHNIQUE TWO - I HAVE THE ONLY PATH AND IF YOU LEAVE IT YOU WILL BE
                      IN TROUBLE. ]

                      "It is when the chela leaves the protection and guidance of the Living
                      ECK Master that Kal Niranjan will pounce upon him and start his
                      negative works."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 172

                      "There is no way to the SUGMAD except through the MahantA."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 29

                      "Only the Living ECK Master has the power to initiate souls and take
                      them to the regions of light."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 64

                      "Should the Soul not be an initiate of the Living ECK Master, It must
                      stand before Dharam Raya, the judge of the dead, and receive its just
                      reward."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 73

                      "It is not possible to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven except through
                      the teachings of ECKANKAR."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page  96

                      "The Eckist recognizes no other religion, although such exists in this
                      physical world. Nor does he recognize any metaphysical teaching,
                      occultism, or any worldly theological faiths, creeds, and cults, all
                      of which claim to be the way to God."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 98

                      "All others who claim they are the messengers, preachers, or the voice
                      of God do so for some materialistic motive."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 105

                      "[All other religions] are the offshoots of ECKANKAR, the original
                      source of all life."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 113

                      "The Living ECK Master embraces all humanity because he is the only
                      channel that can do so."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 16

                      "No one can reach God practicing any path except devotion to the
                      SUGMAD through the Mahanta."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 136

                      "He shall wander about the face of the earth life after life,
                      incarnation after incarnation, until that day when he shall meet with
                      the Living ECK Master."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 136

                      "The Living ECK Master is the only one who truly knows what Soul is."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 150

                      QUESTION: ARE YOUR STUDENTS FREE TO LEAVE ECKANKAR?

                      [TECHNIQUE THREE - I AM THE MASTER AND ONCE I HAVE INITIATED YOU, YOU
                      WILL BE WITH ME FOREVER.]

                      "At no time does the Mahanta ever leave one who has become his charge,
                      regardless of whether or not the chela tries to break his ties."

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 65

                      "Those who need the Living ECK Master will always stay with him, but
                      those who feel that they are beyond this are wrong in their thinking.
                      They have not examined the truth, and will go afoul of the illusions
                      established by the Kal"

                      -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 170

                      ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF PAUL TWITCHELL'S CONFLICTING MESSAGES:

                      In the first passage, PT speaks of fear methods. In the following
                      passage, PT proceeds to use the very fear methods he denounced:

                      "The oldest technique of keeping the loyalty of the chela by many
                      teachers is with fear. This is true in the methods of those teachers
                      on the lower plane levels. Because they grow afraid of losing their
                      chelas to a Master on the higher level, the old fear tactics will be
                      drummed into those who desire to move away from the psychic plane
                      elements into the God planes. These threats are very common. They
                      usually go like this: "If you leave me, you will get caught in the
                      astral and won't get out." Another cliché is: "I've got the only path
                      and if you leave it, you're in deep trouble." Another one is: "I'm the
                      true Master, and having initiated you, will be with you until the end
                      of eternity. I'm your Master always." These are a few of the
                      techniques of fear used by most teachers of the psychic worlds. We can
                      easily recognize them.

                      "The very  fact that they use such methods to hold their students
                      shows they are afraid of losing out to a true Master. The real Master
                      never drops any hints of reprisal to anyone who shows freedom of will
                      and the capability of thinking for himself. He never at any time says
                      anything to the chela unless asked."

                      -Paul Twitchell, The Illuminated Way Letters, March 1968, published in
                      The Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, copyright 1975 Gail Twitchell
                      Gross

                      [In PT's next quote, he proceeds to use the very fear methods he
                      scorned in the previous passage]:

                      "As the instrument for this greatest spiritual power within all
                      universes, we must take hold of the basic idea that we are the chosen
                      people. This makes us different from all the others in this world, and
                      we must look upon ourselves as heirs to the keys to heaven. We are the
                      kings and queens of the earthly realm, appointed by the divine SUGMAD
                      to take our places here as ITS representatives. We are to act as Godly
                      instruments through which the ECK flows to the world and uplifts
                      humanity.

                      "By divine right we have become the chosen people. And, because we
                      have accepted the responsibility of carrying out the will of god, it
                      is necessary that that we have the faith and knowledge of being the
                      people of God. Those who do not belong in the spiritual works of ECK
                      have either rejected this path or do not know of it. They will have to
                      wait until the time is ready for each to accept the Mahanta, the
                      Living ECK Master.

                      "These people are in a sort of limbo, whether it is in the past or
                      modern times. They will go through lifetime after lifetime wondering
                      why they must suffer, for the Angel of Death does not listen to their
                      cries for mercy but places them back into another life, to pay for
                      their karma."

                      "By the Eck alone the chela can transcend all the lower regions and
                      rise into the heavenly world of the Sugmad. Without the Mahanta, the
                      Living Eck Master, no one can attain conscious union with the stream
                      of pure life, nor can he go further than the first region of light,
                      which is the astral."

                      -Paul Twitchell, The Spiritual Notebook

                      TIAN YUE RESPONDS:

                      So, Twitchell knew all along exactly what he was doing with the
                      threats he, himself, made to those who would leave eckankar. It was
                      deliberate, and it was deceptive. He says in the first quote how a
                      master goes about trapping a chela through fear, then he uses the same
                      fear tactic himself. Note that one of his examples of a fear tactic is
                      to threaten existence no higher than the astral plane, which is
                      exactly what he states will be the fate of those who do not follow the
                      Mahanta, the Living Eck Master.

                      Let's consider a few things. In the first excerpt Twitchell writes in
                      his monthly letter to the membership about masters using fear tactics
                      to trap chelas. He encourages chelas to beware of sly, lowly teachers
                      who want to draw them away from a supposedly higher master, presumably
                      himself, considering the overall context. He made various comments
                      similar to this in other writings, too, which indicates he was
                      concerned with keeping his chelas from leaving him to follow other
                      masters.

                      In the second excerpt from the Spiritual Notebook, he includes
                      warnings of what will befall those who reject eckankar. The warnings
                      are structured identically to the fear tactics he earlier described.

                      In both instances, the statements were designed to keep his chelas
                      from wandering from eckankar.  In the first instance, he warns of the
                      dangers of lower masters using fear tactics to draw away and hold the
                      gullible, unthinking chela. In the second instance, he uses the same
                      fear tactic himself to warn the unwary chela of the dangers of
                      rejecting eckankar. It should be obvious that both are examples of the
                      use of fear to hold chelas. To state this in another way, in one
                      instance he instills apprehension of fear tactics, and in the second
                      instance he reverses this by using fear tactics to create
                      apprehension. They are both the same, really.

                      If Twitchell's strategy was to create a maze of seemingly
                      contradictory fear tactics in a kind of rhetorical counterpoint to one
                      another, to set chelas off-guard as to what his true intentions were,
                      it has worked beautifully, as is illustrated in the two responses by
                      the chelas above. Their argument is, no authentic master would first
                      warn of other masters using fear tactics, and then brazenly use the
                      very same tactics! Yet it is precisely due to the fact that the
                      notoriously, unabashed Twitchell did exactly this, that the eckists
                      have been supplied by him with an argument to the contrary! His clever
                      designs to bind have worked.

                      The fact that Twitchell wrote of the fear tactics, to the point of
                      including several examples, proves that he was well aware of the
                      concept of their use, and the effects of their use in retaining a hold
                      on chelas. His warning also indicates he believed the tactics can
                      succeed in their intended purpose. So when he warns of the terrible
                      fate of chelas who go astray, we are to believe he wasn't aware that
                      this matched his very own definition of a fear tactic? We are to
                      believe that because he described fear tactics, it would make any use
                      of them himself, unlikely? It is far more likely this is exactly what
                      he hoped we would believe. Twitchell was quite clever with this. He
                      was attempting to build into his writings immunity to criticism. And,
                      as incredible as it would seem, the ploy has worked surprisingly well,
                      as can be seen in the chelas responses above.

                      Through this device of double-speak, he keeps his chelas in a state of
                      confusion, which eventually leads to the necessity of either setting
                      aside critical thinking of the master's writings in order to maintain
                      what is to the chela the extremely precious, indispensable master/
                      chela relationship, on which the chela has become dependent, or
                      breaking off the relationship, which may prove to be an extremely
                      difficult, if not impossible, choice for the chela.

                      However he learned of these insidious control methods, whether he
                      found them in other teachings he studied, such as Scientology, or
                      stumbled upon them by trial and error, there is no doubt, based on the
                      excerpts included here, that it was deliberate. That there are chelas
                      who believe otherwise merely serves to give evidence to the efficacy
                      of the methods.

                      Tian Yue


                      >
                      >
                      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" brighttigress@
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hello all,
                      > > >
                      > > > I am fairly new to this group and would like to say a few things
                      > in
                      > > > way of introduction. I am an ECKist, for about 6 years now. I
                      > have
                      > > > been wavering back and forth for most of that time, trying to
                      > > decide
                      > > > whether I want to remain a member of ECKANKAR or not. I have read
                      > > > many reasons, written by those who have left. What I like to do,
                      > is
                      > > > weigh each argument with what I know and feel to be my truth and
                      > > see
                      > > > how it fits.
                      > >
                      > > For some odd reason, I flashed to those beaten, bruised, bleeding
                      > > women who tell the police, ER workers, and crisis volunteers
                      > > "...but he loooooves me!"
                      > >
                      > > I give abusers credit for at least "apologizing", declaring their
                      > > love for their victims, and swearing they're sorry and won't do it
                      > > again.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >My conclusions thus far have been to remain a member.
                      > >
                      > > Yeah, it makes you feel good to be a "chosen people", doesn't it?
                      > >
                      > > And the longer you stay, the more enlightened you're gonna
                      > get...and
                      > > one of these years you'll get one of those gold ID cards instead of
                      > a
                      > > blue one! And you'll get those special secret high-holey HI
                      > > newsletters!!! And you'll get to go to those HI meetings where you
                      > > get carded at the door!! And one day you'll even get to buy an
                      > > Official Clergy pin!!!!!!!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > Mostly because I know the benefits I have received from being a
                      > > > member.
                      > >
                      > > Some organizations offer special discounts to card-carrying members.
                      > >
                      > > I've resisted AARP membership so far. Okay, $12.50 a year isn't
                      > much
                      > > but I'm on a tight budget. And guess what I found out!! You do NOT
                      > > have to be an AARP member to get a lower rate on insurance from The
                      > > Hartford!!!!!!!
                      > >
                      > > It's amazing, but I've learned there's lots of stuff you can get
                      > > absolutely free even though various companies try to convince you
                      > > they're "special" and you can only get them by buying a particular
                      > > product.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >I am not disillusioned into believing that anyone is the only
                      > > > God-Man on earth, the one and only representative of God for
                      > > mankind.
                      > >
                      > > Then you don't believe ek-kult's "teachings"!
                      > >
                      > > "One must either believe in the Living ECK Master or not. If the
                      > > chela doesn't, within a reasonable time, then he should drop out of
                      > > ECK. This is a serious path and must be considered the only way to
                      > > God." Illuminated Way Letters, pg. 139
                      > >
                      > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, is the only being who is
                      > > eligible to make known the true path to God. All others mislead
                      > their
                      > > followers, because they themselves are misled." SKS 2, pg. 182
                      > >
                      > > "No one is worthy of God. It is only through the Grace of the
                      > > supreme SUGMAD that we become worthy. Only the living ECK Master
                      > can
                      > > bring this Grace to those who seek IT, for he is the pure
                      > instrument
                      > > of God on Earth. So we must keep our faith with the living ECK
                      > > Master and live in his presense as much as possible." SKS I, pg. 19
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > But I do approach life with an open heart, and listen to my inner
                      > > > master (for lack of better word), which I realize is my very own
                      > > > higher self.
                      > >
                      > > You know, it's amazing how many millions of human beings simply go
                      > > thru life just fine and "naturally" without having to use airy-
                      > fairy
                      > > new-age cult jargon.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >I also am aware that when someone puts enough attention
                      > > > on something, the that something begins to manifest itself in
                      > > >his/her life.
                      > >
                      > > This isn't true, either. That's why lottery agencies and casinos
                      > > make lots of money from people who put lots of attention on
                      > winning.
                      > >
                      > > I could give you plenty of examples. It doesn't really matter what
                      > > you put your attention on and how much work you put into it. You
                      > can
                      > > still get those "kabooms"...of course, if you're a cult member you
                      > > can rationalize with that "karma" bullshit. So instead of having
                      > > your headstone engraved with "...but he loooves me" you can
                      > use "The
                      > > conscious memory of my past life transgressions is blocked, but I'm
                      > > sure I deserved it."
                      > >
                      > > > Now with that said, I would like to weigh in on this subject of
                      > > > the "threats" in Eckankar's writings.
                      > > >
                      > > > I have been deliberating and contemplating these messages you
                      > have
                      > > > posted here. After much contemplation and deliberation, there
                      > > appears to be that there are two sides to this issue.
                      > > >
                      > > > First side being Threats and second side, Warnings.
                      > > >
                      > > > On the surface, these two sides may appear to be one and the
                      > same,
                      > > > but I'd like to address both sides of this issue if I may. First,
                      > I
                      > > > will post the dictionary's definition of these terms:
                      > > >
                      > > > threat,
                      > > > –noun 1. a declaration of an intention or determination to
                      > inflict
                      > > > punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally
                      > > upon,
                      > > > some action or course; menace: He confessed under the threat of
                      > > > imprisonment.
                      > > >
                      > > > warn·ing,
                      > > > –noun 1. the act or utterance of one who warns or the existence,
                      > > > appearance, sound, etc., of a thing that warns.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Now, just suppose that you know of some danger one faces if one
                      > > > should act a certain way or do a certain deed. This knowledge was
                      > > > probably gained by you through experience by having done the very
                      > > act or deed that exposes such danger to you. Or, if not direct
                      > > knowledge,
                      > > > someone you trusted very much told you of that danger and you had
                      > > no
                      > > > reason not to believe them. Wouldn't you want to warn people
                      > about
                      > > > this pending danger by saying something like "if you do this
                      > > certain
                      > > > deed, or act a certain way, then you will face this danger!"?
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I don't know whether to laugh or yawn here.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > We all know just how inarticulate Paul Twitchell was. A man of
                      > > great
                      > > > knowledge, but very little expertise in the way to word sentences
                      > > to
                      > > > assure understanding.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Paul Twitchell was a liar, cheat, and a thief.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >I do believe that perhaps what is being
                      > > > perceived as threats was perhaps warnings.
                      > >
                      > > Today's assignment:
                      > >
                      > > Identify the following quotes as "threats" or "warnings", and
                      > explain
                      > > why the difference (if any) matters:
                      > >
                      > > Twitchell in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad #2, pg. 166: "Woe be unto him if
                      > > he does (resign), for it is known among those who have reached these
                      > > lofty heights and witnessed the consequences of the few who have.
                      > > Those few have found that spiritual decay sets in immediately,
                      > > affecting the health, material life and spiritual life, and brings
                      > > death more swiftly."
                      > >
                      > > "Bring me another beer and then get down on your knees and suck my
                      > > dick or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp."
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "What few would recognize is that the Mahanta prevented the
                      > dreamer's
                      > > death. It often happens that a dreamer, who does not have the
                      > > protection of the Mahanta, simply dies in his sleep. The doctor
                      > > writes off the cause as heart failure or some other physical
                      > > condition. Often as not, however, the dreamer had wandered beyond
                      > the
                      > > safe limits of his inner world and met a psychic criminal, who was
                      > > responsible for his death. An experience that did not have to be,
                      > had
                      > > he known of the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master." (the rest of the
                      > > story's at
                      > > http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html}
                      > >
                      > > Extra credit essay question: Read the rest of the story. Find
                      > some
                      > > statistics on people who die in their sleep "mysteriously" but the
                      > > death certificate says "heart failure" when there's no history of
                      > > heart trouble and the autopsy reveals no heart problems or anything
                      > > else wrong physically. (Adults deaths only, SIDS doesn't count
                      > > because infants can't write checks.) State two possible reasons
                      > for
                      > > this story other than getting and keeping members, especially
                      > > superstitious Africans.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > In any case, this is what
                      > > > I want to believe because I cannot imagine anyone of such
                      > spiritual
                      > > > knowledge being able to diliberately mislead people.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > Aha!!!!!!!! You got it!!! Maybe you just don't realize it.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > This is just my thoughts on this subject.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > I know. I went thru the same thing.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > with deepest respect,
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > I respect you too - at least you're thinking about it and not just
                      > > huing yourself into eckanfog!
                      > >
                      > > Take care & good luck!
                      > >
                      > > Sharon
                      > >
                      >

                    • tomleafeater
                      Wow, I tried to use Yahoo s text editing function in my last post, to help separate my words from the one s I was repying to, and it doesn t seem to work very
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 27, 2007
                        Wow, I tried to use Yahoo's text editing function in my last post, to
                        help separate my words from the one's I was repying to, and it
                        doesn't seem to work very well. Italics didn't work, bold function
                        kicked in where it wasn't supposed to, etc., etc. I guess this is why
                        people don't use the Yahoo text editor much, eh?

                        Leaf

                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thank you, Sharon!
                        > >
                        > > I'm working on my assignments...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Assignments? Are you in Sunday school? I wouldn't bother with any
                        > assignments. Just learn to use your head. Learn critical thinking.
                        Don't
                        > be a sap. Don't be someone's pawn. That's no assignment. Critical
                        > thinking is a requirement that life demands from the onset of
                        puberty,
                        > lest you become rolled over by every con artist that is fortunate to
                        > discover your gullibilities.
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Really and truly, I do realize what you are saying is what you
                        > > believe and I am trying to come to a final decision of what to
                        > > believe. It's too easy to listen to others' opinions and adopt one
                        > > for self, but this is not me. I will in time come into my own
                        > > realization of the real truth for me on this matter.
                        > >
                        >
                        > Okay....that is just what you think people want to hear, right? That
                        > you're sincere? But, as you know, you deliberately show your hand
                        at the
                        > end of your post. See below.
                        >
                        > > On the surface, it does appear that PT was a pompous ass making
                        just
                        > > about any kind of threat he could to get members to remain
                        members.
                        > > But when one reads the Christian Bible or any other religious
                        > > scriptures, the same things can be seen. That's why I am trying to
                        > > look past the obvious threat to see what is the true message.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes, the Christian faith also uses threats. Bad ones. Really bad
                        ones.
                        > Burning in hell for eternity for the non-follower. Similar to
                        > reincarnating for eons in the lower Kal worlds if you don't
                        > accept...Eckankar.
                        >
                        > So, because other equally manipulative and devious religions use
                        > threats, that makes it okay?
                        >
                        > Yes, Christianity uses threats.
                        >
                        > That why I'm not Christian.
                        >
                        > Wake up and smell the coffee. Or the green tea. The caffeinated
                        beverage
                        > of your choice. Christianity has wrecked the lives of thousands, if
                        not
                        > tens of millions of people. Or perhaps even more. Think of the
                        crusades.
                        > Think of the Spanish inquisition. Think of the racism over the
                        years,
                        > the gay bashing, the misogynism, the torture (yeah, popular again
                        in our
                        > country).
                        >
                        > Do you really think its wise to use Christianity as a model to
                        excuse
                        > Eckankar's bad behavior?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > I cannot remember where at the moment that Harold Klemp admits
                        that
                        > > the Mahanta is none other than each individual's higher self,
                        Soul. I
                        > > wish I could, because this pretty much takes most of the threats
                        you
                        > > mentioned below to a different level, more into the realm of
                        warnings
                        > > instead of threats. Of course, then the "Living ECK Master" is
                        > > another item of contention. From other studies made, there
                        appears to
                        > > be more than one of these on earth...known by different titles, of
                        > > course.
                        > >
                        >
                        > There are a lot of statements from Klemp that disprove your claims.
                        It
                        > takes time to dig them up, but here's something that is close at
                        hand.
                        > The following is a verbatim copy of Klemp's article which appeared
                        in
                        > the Mystic World, December, 1998 (by the way, I pulled this out of
                        the
                        > A.R.E. archives with key words in the search, so the key words may
                        still
                        > be highlighted after the cut and paste. And if you want to read the
                        > entire thread, click on the link):
                        >
                        >
                        http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_frm/thread
                        /5\
                        > a2f0d53e60fed88/07540ba0c848ba91?
                        lnk=gst&q=savior+of+the+worlds+of+god%2\
                        > C+tianyue#07540ba0c848ba91
                        >
                        <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_frm/threa
                        d/\
                        > 5a2f0d53e60fed88/07540ba0c848ba91?
                        lnk=gst&q=savior+of+the+worlds+of+god%\
                        > 2C+tianyue#07540ba0c848ba91>
                        >
                        >
                        > "The Chosen People... You are one of them. Read chapter seven of The
                        > Spiritual Notebook, "the Steps to the Secret Kingdom." Its your
                        > homework. There you will find out what makes you an heir to the
                        keys of
                        > heaven."
                        >
                        > Here's chapter seven of The Spiritual Notebook that Klemp referred
                        to:
                        >
                        > "As the instrument for this greatest spiritual power within all
                        > universes, we must take hold of the basic idea that we are the
                        chosen
                        > people. This makes us different from all the others in this world,
                        and
                        > we must look upon ourselves as heirs to the keys to heaven. We are
                        the
                        > kings and queens of the earthly realm, appointed by the divine
                        SUGMAD to
                        > take our places here as ITS
                        > representatives. We are to act as Godly instruments through which
                        the
                        > ECK flows to the world and uplifts humanity.
                        >
                        > By divine right we have become the chosen people. And, because we
                        have
                        > accepted the responsibility of carrying out the will of god, it is
                        > necessary that that we have the faith and knowledge of being the
                        people
                        > of God. Those who do not belong in the spiritual works of ECK have
                        > either rejected this path or do not know of it. They will have to
                        wait
                        > until the time is ready for each to accept the Mahanta, the Living
                        ECK
                        > Master.
                        >
                        > These people are in a sort of limbo, whether it is in the past or
                        modern
                        > times. They will go through lifetime after lifetime wondering why
                        they
                        > must suffer, for the Angel of Death does not listen to their cries
                        for
                        > mercy but places them back into another life, to pay for their
                        karma."
                        >
                        > Spiritual Notebook, pg. 117-118
                        >
                        > So much for Klemp's comment of choice:
                        >
                        > "The purpose of the teachings of ECK is to give us the freedom to
                        > choose our own way in our life." --Klemp
                        >
                        > People who don't choose Eckankar have this happen to them:
                        >
                        > "These people are in a sort of limbo, whether it is in the past or
                        > modern times. They will go through lifetime after lifetime wondering
                        > why they must suffer, for the Angel of Death does not listen to
                        their
                        > cries for mercy but places them back into another life, to pay for
                        > their karma." --Klemp's recommended reading from the Spiritual
                        Notebook
                        >
                        > Sounds more like, "my way or the highway"...
                        >
                        > The threats of what happens to people who simply choose a different
                        path
                        > are practically dripping off page after page in the eckankar
                        writings.
                        > For example, Klemp states former eckists are actually suffering from
                        > three ills. So ex-eckists are sick? That quite a thing to say about
                        > those who decide to leave a teacher. If eckankar is so attractive
                        and
                        > wonderful, and so rewarding, why must its leaders resort to scaring
                        > people with awful, existential threats of doom and gloom to keep
                        them on
                        > the path? Wouldn't fear be the technique of, say, the Kal? Yet the
                        > so-called eck masters use fear to create psychological dependence
                        in the
                        > followers.
                        >
                        > How grandiose are Eckankar leaders' vision of themselves? Read and
                        see.
                        > This excerpt is from Letter's To a Chela, written for the hardcore
                        > member. It was supposed to be the unvarnished truth, not intended
                        for
                        > public consumption:
                        >
                        >
                        > "The mahanta, the Living Eck Master, exceeds all the principles,
                        > beliefs, and faith in Adepts and Saviors. He is responsible for all
                        > those who are the faithful within the ECK (sic). At the same time,
                        > He must overlook and see that those in the churches and various
                        faiths
                        > are also taken care of. He shoulders the worlds problems and looks
                        at
                        > the major disasters, earthquakes, wars
                        > and other problems of mankind as part of His duty to work out the
                        karmic
                        > conditions of the human race. Not only does He become the upholder
                        and
                        > the inspiration to the human race on
                        > earth, but He also takes care of the spiritual affairs of life on
                        other
                        > planets and universes, that of the beings and entities within the
                        > psychic worlds, and those souls fortunate to reach the
                        > higher planes of god. His task is tremendous, and although He is
                        > light-hearted at times and seemingly without thought of world
                        > conditions, He is ever in the Atma Sarup (soul body) watching and
                        > guarding those nearest His heart, and the populations of the various
                        > worlds, planes and universes.
                        >
                        > Therefore, we find that the Mahanta is not only the world savior,
                        but
                        > that of the world of worlds, all planets, all psychic planes, and
                        the
                        > spiritual regions. He is the Savior of the Worlds of God. This is
                        not
                        > the physical man as you can see and talk with, but the spiritual
                        body
                        > which is the Atma Sarup (soul body), which is the spiritual body of
                        all
                        > the Worlds of God. In other words, He is the ECK Itself, and
                        because the
                        > ECK is the basis of all life, the spiritual essence which flows out
                        of
                        > the SUGMAD, the Ocean of Love and Mercy, He is IT. This is the
                        spiritual
                        > body which is in all things and which is the creative function of
                        life.
                        > Therefore, we find the Mahanta in every man, creature, plant and
                        > mineral, as well as in all other forms of life. His physical body
                        is the
                        > only representation of the channel through which the ECK flows. "
                        >
                        > -Letter to a Chela, by Paul Twitchell
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > At any rate, I do appreciate your time and effort in trying to
                        help
                        > > me. Your words are not being weighed carefully with due
                        consideration.
                        > >
                        > > with kindest regards and much love to you,
                        > >
                        > > Leon
                        > >
                        >
                        > I'm not sure, having not read all the posts here lately, but did no
                        one
                        > notice this? I'm particularly fascinated by this remark you made,
                        just
                        > above:
                        >
                        > "Your words are NOT [caps mine] being weighed carefully with due
                        > consideration."
                        >
                        > I think you've summed up the matter nicely with that last statement.
                        > Well said. We get it. You're not at all interested in a real
                        discussion,
                        > you're just trying to play with our heads (hee, hee). Well, that
                        may be
                        > fun for you, I suppose. You've learned well from your teachers--the
                        art
                        > of playing with peoples' heads, that is. Even you are using the
                        > deceptive sleight of hand. Bravo. Makes me feel sooo warm inside
                        about
                        > eckankar.
                        >
                        > Leafeater
                        >
                        >
                        > PS:
                        >
                        > If all that I've written here isn't enough, here's a repost from
                        A.R.E
                        > that I wrote a long time ago. I haven't read all that has been
                        posted
                        > here lately, so some of this may have laready been posted, since the
                        > A.R.E. archives are often used as a reference.
                        >
                        > I was replying to Doug and some others about an interview of Paul
                        T. by
                        > a reporter. Here's the link of the entire thread:
                        >
                        >
                        http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_frm/thread
                        /b\
                        > f63c7a501540a3f/3b819eac64d588d1?#3b819eac64d588d1
                        >
                        <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_frm/threa
                        d/\
                        > bf63c7a501540a3f/3b819eac64d588d1?#3b819eac64d588d1>
                        >
                        > Here are the same the questions PT's interviewer posed, but with the
                        > answers given through out Paul Twitchell's books, in which we see a
                        > very different PT than the one talking to a reporter. PT was a
                        public
                        > relations man, and he knew when it was in his interests to tone down
                        > his rhetoric. But when writing to the true believers, he let his
                        real
                        > intentions become extraordinarily clear. The difference between off
                        > the cuff answers and those published is that the latter are
                        statements
                        > PT had ample time to ponder and consider, and are much more
                        definitive
                        > since he knew these would be his published words:
                        >
                        > Also included in my response is an example or PT's doublespeak, in
                        > which he gives out conflicting messages. His technique of creating
                        > cognitive dissonance in his students with conflicting messages does
                        > work quite well to keep students on the path. His interview answers
                        > which he gave to the two questions reveal a person willing to say
                        > whatever was necessary to keep peaple off balance and confused.
                        > Several more examples follow at the end of my response.
                        >
                        > QUESTION: Would you declare that Eckankar offers the only path to
                        God?
                        >
                        > "Since everything in this physical universe is controlled by Kal
                        > Niranjan (the negative power), we have nothing that can say it
                        > represents the ultimate in the perfect sense, except ECKANKAR
                        (sic)."
                        >
                        > -Sharyat Ki Sugmad, Book 1, chapter 6, by Paul Twitchell
                        >
                        > "By the Eck alone the chela can transcend all the lower regions and
                        > rise into the heavenly world of the Sugmad. Without the Mahanta, the
                        > Living Eck Master, no one can attain conscious union with the stream
                        > of pure life, nor can he go further than the first region of light,
                        > which is the astral."
                        >
                        > -Paul Twitchell, The Spiritual Notebook
                        >
                        > "All religions, philosphies, and sacred doctrines are the offsprings
                        > of Eckankar."
                        >
                        > -Letters to a Chela, discourse 4, page 1, by Paul Twitchell
                        >
                        > "You [the eckankar follower reading Letters to a Chela] are superior
                        > in your knowledge and thinking over all others who are not in
                        > Eckankar."
                        >
                        > -Letters to a Chela, discourse 4, page 1, by Paul Twitchell
                        >
                        > "The Living ECK (sic) Master is always higher on the spiritual scale
                        > of God than any of the saints of the worldly religions."
                        >
                        > -Sharyat Ki Sugmad, Book 1, chapter 6, by Paul Twitchell
                        >
                        > QUESTION: Then it would not be necessary to have a master after one
                        > has truly accomplished soul travel and learned its precepts?
                        >
                        > "Every living ECK master chooses his chelas and few are let go. If
                        > they do wish to go, it means they leave voluntarily and it is
                        mutually
                        > agreed upon. If the chela decides to leave the living ECK Master on
                        > his own without first discussing it, then he has problems to face
                        > which are more severe than ever. He has left the Master and gone
                        into
                        > the wilderness alone to face the wild beasts which will devour him.
                        It
                        > is typical of the vain chela to announce that he is leaving without
                        > asking permission."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 144
                        >
                        > If any Soul who is a chela or initiate leaves the path of Eck for
                        > another way to the heavenly worlds he must expect his karma to be
                        > extended. His karmic burden increases as he gathers more, going
                        > through incarnation after incarnation, He will again someday meet
                        with
                        > the Living Eck Master, when ready. (SKS 1, 97)
                        >
                        > At no time does the Mahanta ever leave one who has become his
                        charge,
                        > regardless of whether or not the chela tries to break his ties.
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 65
                        >
                        > Those who need the Living ECK Master will always stay with him, but
                        > those who feel that they are beyond this are wrong in their
                        thinking.
                        > They have not examined the truth, and will go afoul of the illusions
                        > established by the Kal.
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 170
                        >
                        > TIAN YUE RESPONDS:
                        >
                        > So, one must ask permission to leave. One must first "discuss"
                        leaving
                        > the Master. If the chela doesn't ask for permission, and discuss
                        > leaving with the master, which implies a degree of servitude and
                        > obediance expected from Twitchell, then the chela will be devoured
                        by
                        > beasts! And chelas who don't ask for permission are vain. I see.
                        >
                        > Whoa there, Maestro. Thou doest presume far too much. And thou doest
                        > reveal much, as well.
                        >
                        > This is an extreme example of the threats laid upon the chela, as
                        well
                        > as more examples of doublespeak. Notice he says leaving is voluntary
                        > on one hand, but on the other permission is required. And if
                        > permission isn't requested and actually discussed, wild beasts will
                        > devour the chela, and problems will be severe. Implied is a power
                        the
                        > master has to grant safe passage to the chela who wishes to go. This
                        > requirement for permission is quite ominous, if one thinks about it.
                        > Permission? Permission more than implies the Master has power over
                        the
                        > chela. Wild beasts? Wilderness? Being eaten? Severe problems? My
                        lord,
                        > are we still in the dark ages?
                        >
                        > Here's another way of putting this. I've decided to interview PT
                        with
                        > a few questions. His answers were found in his published works. The
                        > difference between off the cuff answers and those published is that
                        > the latter are statements PT had ample time to ponder and consider,
                        > and are much more definitive since he knew these would be his
                        > published words:
                        >
                        > QUESTION: WHAT HAPPENS, PT, IF ONE OF YOUR STUDENTS LEAVES ECKANKAR?
                        >
                        > [TECHNIQUE ONE - IF YOU LEAVE ME YOU WILL BE CAUGHT IN THE ASTRAL.]
                        >
                        > "Should physical death come before man finds liberation, he will go
                        > through a period in the Astral world {...}until he is given rebirth
                        > again." "He does this over and over again until one day he meets
                        again
                        > with the Living ECK Master."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 132
                        >
                        > "If any Soul who is a chela or initiate leaves the path of Eck for
                        > another way to the heavenly worlds he must expect his karma to be
                        > extended. His karmic burden increases as he gathers more, going
                        > through incarnation after incarnation, He will again someday meet
                        with
                        > the Living Eck Master, when ready."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 97
                        >
                        > "No one can get his release from the net of karma without the Living
                        > ECK Master."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 140
                        >
                        > "Should Soul cease to spiritually unfold It will, after the death of
                        > the body, go into the seven worlds of Avernus, the dark realm of the
                        > Astral Plane where many evil Souls must spend time. <snip> After he
                        > has met the Living ECK Master he will never have to reincarnate on
                        > this plane nor in any of the underworld planes."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 146
                        >
                        > "If a chela decides to leave the Living ECK Master on his own
                        without
                        > first discussing it, then he has problems to face which are more
                        > severe than ever. He has left the ECK Master and gone into the
                        > wilderness alone to face the wild beasts which will devour him."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 172
                        >
                        > QUESTION: DO ECK MASTERS REPRESENT THE ONLY WAY TO GOD?
                        >
                        > [TECHNIQUE TWO - I HAVE THE ONLY PATH AND IF YOU LEAVE IT YOU WILL
                        BE
                        > IN TROUBLE. ]
                        >
                        > "It is when the chela leaves the protection and guidance of the
                        Living
                        > ECK Master that Kal Niranjan will pounce upon him and start his
                        > negative works."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 172
                        >
                        > "There is no way to the SUGMAD except through the MahantA."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 29
                        >
                        > "Only the Living ECK Master has the power to initiate souls and take
                        > them to the regions of light."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 64
                        >
                        > "Should the Soul not be an initiate of the Living ECK Master, It
                        must
                        > stand before Dharam Raya, the judge of the dead, and receive its
                        just
                        > reward."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 73
                        >
                        > "It is not possible to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven except
                        through
                        > the teachings of ECKANKAR."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 96
                        >
                        > "The Eckist recognizes no other religion, although such exists in
                        this
                        > physical world. Nor does he recognize any metaphysical teaching,
                        > occultism, or any worldly theological faiths, creeds, and cults, all
                        > of which claim to be the way to God."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 98
                        >
                        > "All others who claim they are the messengers, preachers, or the
                        voice
                        > of God do so for some materialistic motive."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 105
                        >
                        > "[All other religions] are the offshoots of ECKANKAR, the original
                        > source of all life."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 113
                        >
                        > "The Living ECK Master embraces all humanity because he is the only
                        > channel that can do so."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 16
                        >
                        > "No one can reach God practicing any path except devotion to the
                        > SUGMAD through the Mahanta."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 136
                        >
                        > "He shall wander about the face of the earth life after life,
                        > incarnation after incarnation, until that day when he shall meet
                        with
                        > the Living ECK Master."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 136
                        >
                        > "The Living ECK Master is the only one who truly knows what Soul
                        is."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 150
                        >
                        > QUESTION: ARE YOUR STUDENTS FREE TO LEAVE ECKANKAR?
                        >
                        > [TECHNIQUE THREE - I AM THE MASTER AND ONCE I HAVE INITIATED YOU,
                        YOU
                        > WILL BE WITH ME FOREVER.]
                        >
                        > "At no time does the Mahanta ever leave one who has become his
                        charge,
                        > regardless of whether or not the chela tries to break his ties."
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 65
                        >
                        > "Those who need the Living ECK Master will always stay with him, but
                        > those who feel that they are beyond this are wrong in their
                        thinking.
                        > They have not examined the truth, and will go afoul of the illusions
                        > established by the Kal"
                        >
                        > -The Shariyat Ki Sugmad, book 1, by Twitchell, page 170
                        >
                        > ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF PAUL TWITCHELL'S CONFLICTING MESSAGES:
                        >
                        > In the first passage, PT speaks of fear methods. In the following
                        > passage, PT proceeds to use the very fear methods he denounced:
                        >
                        > "The oldest technique of keeping the loyalty of the chela by many
                        > teachers is with fear. This is true in the methods of those teachers
                        > on the lower plane levels. Because they grow afraid of losing their
                        > chelas to a Master on the higher level, the old fear tactics will be
                        > drummed into those who desire to move away from the psychic plane
                        > elements into the God planes. These threats are very common. They
                        > usually go like this: "If you leave me, you will get caught in the
                        > astral and won't get out." Another cliché is: "I've got the only
                        path
                        > and if you leave it, you're in deep trouble." Another one is: "I'm
                        the
                        > true Master, and having initiated you, will be with you until the
                        end
                        > of eternity. I'm your Master always." These are a few of the
                        > techniques of fear used by most teachers of the psychic worlds. We
                        can
                        > easily recognize them.
                        >
                        > "The very fact that they use such methods to hold their students
                        > shows they are afraid of losing out to a true Master. The real
                        Master
                        > never drops any hints of reprisal to anyone who shows freedom of
                        will
                        > and the capability of thinking for himself. He never at any time
                        says
                        > anything to the chela unless asked."
                        >
                        > -Paul Twitchell, The Illuminated Way Letters, March 1968, published
                        in
                        > The Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, copyright 1975 Gail
                        Twitchell
                        > Gross
                        >
                        > [In PT's next quote, he proceeds to use the very fear methods he
                        > scorned in the previous passage]:
                        >
                        > "As the instrument for this greatest spiritual power within all
                        > universes, we must take hold of the basic idea that we are the
                        chosen
                        > people. This makes us different from all the others in this world,
                        and
                        > we must look upon ourselves as heirs to the keys to heaven. We are
                        the
                        > kings and queens of the earthly realm, appointed by the divine
                        SUGMAD
                        > to take our places here as ITS representatives. We are to act as
                        Godly
                        > instruments through which the ECK flows to the world and uplifts
                        > humanity.
                        >
                        > "By divine right we have become the chosen people. And, because we
                        > have accepted the responsibility of carrying out the will of god, it
                        > is necessary that that we have the faith and knowledge of being the
                        > people of God. Those who do not belong in the spiritual works of ECK
                        > have either rejected this path or do not know of it. They will have
                        to
                        > wait until the time is ready for each to accept the Mahanta, the
                        > Living ECK Master.
                        >
                        > "These people are in a sort of limbo, whether it is in the past or
                        > modern times. They will go through lifetime after lifetime wondering
                        > why they must suffer, for the Angel of Death does not listen to
                        their
                        > cries for mercy but places them back into another life, to pay for
                        > their karma."
                        >
                        > "By the Eck alone the chela can transcend all the lower regions and
                        > rise into the heavenly world of the Sugmad. Without the Mahanta, the
                        > Living Eck Master, no one can attain conscious union with the stream
                        > of pure life, nor can he go further than the first region of light,
                        > which is the astral."
                        >
                        > -Paul Twitchell, The Spiritual Notebook
                        >
                        > TIAN YUE RESPONDS:
                        >
                        > So, Twitchell knew all along exactly what he was doing with the
                        > threats he, himself, made to those who would leave eckankar. It was
                        > deliberate, and it was deceptive. He says in the first quote how a
                        > master goes about trapping a chela through fear, then he uses the
                        same
                        > fear tactic himself. Note that one of his examples of a fear tactic
                        is
                        > to threaten existence no higher than the astral plane, which is
                        > exactly what he states will be the fate of those who do not follow
                        the
                        > Mahanta, the Living Eck Master.
                        >
                        > Let's consider a few things. In the first excerpt Twitchell writes
                        in
                        > his monthly letter to the membership about masters using fear
                        tactics
                        > to trap chelas. He encourages chelas to beware of sly, lowly
                        teachers
                        > who want to draw them away from a supposedly higher master,
                        presumably
                        > himself, considering the overall context. He made various comments
                        > similar to this in other writings, too, which indicates he was
                        > concerned with keeping his chelas from leaving him to follow other
                        > masters.
                        >
                        > In the second excerpt from the Spiritual Notebook, he includes
                        > warnings of what will befall those who reject eckankar. The warnings
                        > are structured identically to the fear tactics he earlier described.
                        >
                        > In both instances, the statements were designed to keep his chelas
                        > from wandering from eckankar. In the first instance, he warns of
                        the
                        > dangers of lower masters using fear tactics to draw away and hold
                        the
                        > gullible, unthinking chela. In the second instance, he uses the same
                        > fear tactic himself to warn the unwary chela of the dangers of
                        > rejecting eckankar. It should be obvious that both are examples of
                        the
                        > use of fear to hold chelas. To state this in another way, in one
                        > instance he instills apprehension of fear tactics, and in the second
                        > instance he reverses this by using fear tactics to create
                        > apprehension. They are both the same, really.
                        >
                        > If Twitchell's strategy was to create a maze of seemingly
                        > contradictory fear tactics in a kind of rhetorical counterpoint to
                        one
                        > another, to set chelas off-guard as to what his true intentions
                        were,
                        > it has worked beautifully, as is illustrated in the two responses by
                        > the chelas above. Their argument is, no authentic master would first
                        > warn of other masters using fear tactics, and then brazenly use the
                        > very same tactics! Yet it is precisely due to the fact that the
                        > notoriously, unabashed Twitchell did exactly this, that the eckists
                        > have been supplied by him with an argument to the contrary! His
                        clever
                        > designs to bind have worked.
                        >
                        > The fact that Twitchell wrote of the fear tactics, to the point of
                        > including several examples, proves that he was well aware of the
                        > concept of their use, and the effects of their use in retaining a
                        hold
                        > on chelas. His warning also indicates he believed the tactics can
                        > succeed in their intended purpose. So when he warns of the terrible
                        > fate of chelas who go astray, we are to believe he wasn't aware that
                        > this matched his very own definition of a fear tactic? We are to
                        > believe that because he described fear tactics, it would make any
                        use
                        > of them himself, unlikely? It is far more likely this is exactly
                        what
                        > he hoped we would believe. Twitchell was quite clever with this. He
                        > was attempting to build into his writings immunity to criticism.
                        And,
                        > as incredible as it would seem, the ploy has worked surprisingly
                        well,
                        > as can be seen in the chelas responses above.
                        >
                        > Through this device of double-speak, he keeps his chelas in a state
                        of
                        > confusion, which eventually leads to the necessity of either setting
                        > aside critical thinking of the master's writings in order to
                        maintain
                        > what is to the chela the extremely precious, indispensable master/
                        > chela relationship, on which the chela has become dependent, or
                        > breaking off the relationship, which may prove to be an extremely
                        > difficult, if not impossible, choice for the chela.
                        >
                        > However he learned of these insidious control methods, whether he
                        > found them in other teachings he studied, such as Scientology, or
                        > stumbled upon them by trial and error, there is no doubt, based on
                        the
                        > excerpts included here, that it was deliberate. That there are
                        chelas
                        > who believe otherwise merely serves to give evidence to the efficacy
                        > of the methods.
                        >
                        > Tian Yue
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" brighttigress@
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Bishop" <soul_i_am@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hello all,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I am fairly new to this group and would like to say a few
                        things
                        > > in
                        > > > > way of introduction. I am an ECKist, for about 6 years now. I
                        > > have
                        > > > > been wavering back and forth for most of that time, trying to
                        > > > decide
                        > > > > whether I want to remain a member of ECKANKAR or not. I have
                        read
                        > > > > many reasons, written by those who have left. What I like to
                        do,
                        > > is
                        > > > > weigh each argument with what I know and feel to be my truth
                        and
                        > > > see
                        > > > > how it fits.
                        > > >
                        > > > For some odd reason, I flashed to those beaten, bruised,
                        bleeding
                        > > > women who tell the police, ER workers, and crisis volunteers
                        > > > "...but he loooooves me!"
                        > > >
                        > > > I give abusers credit for at least "apologizing", declaring
                        their
                        > > > love for their victims, and swearing they're sorry and won't do
                        it
                        > > > again.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >My conclusions thus far have been to remain a member.
                        > > >
                        > > > Yeah, it makes you feel good to be a "chosen people", doesn't
                        it?
                        > > >
                        > > > And the longer you stay, the more enlightened you're gonna
                        > > get...and
                        > > > one of these years you'll get one of those gold ID cards
                        instead of
                        > > a
                        > > > blue one! And you'll get those special secret high-holey HI
                        > > > newsletters!!! And you'll get to go to those HI meetings where
                        you
                        > > > get carded at the door!! And one day you'll even get to buy an
                        > > > Official Clergy pin!!!!!!!
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > Mostly because I know the benefits I have received from being
                        a
                        > > > > member.
                        > > >
                        > > > Some organizations offer special discounts to card-carrying
                        members.
                        > > >
                        > > > I've resisted AARP membership so far. Okay, $12.50 a year isn't
                        > > much
                        > > > but I'm on a tight budget. And guess what I found out!! You do
                        NOT
                        > > > have to be an AARP member to get a lower rate on insurance from
                        The
                        > > > Hartford!!!!!!!
                        > > >
                        > > > It's amazing, but I've learned there's lots of stuff you can get
                        > > > absolutely free even though various companies try to convince
                        you
                        > > > they're "special" and you can only get them by buying a
                        particular
                        > > > product.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >I am not disillusioned into believing that anyone is the only
                        > > > > God-Man on earth, the one and only representative of God for
                        > > > mankind.
                        > > >
                        > > > Then you don't believe ek-kult's "teachings"!
                        > > >
                        > > > "One must either believe in the Living ECK Master or not. If the
                        > > > chela doesn't, within a reasonable time, then he should drop
                        out of
                        > > > ECK. This is a serious path and must be considered the only way
                        to
                        > > > God." Illuminated Way Letters, pg. 139
                        > > >
                        > > > "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, is the only being who is
                        > > > eligible to make known the true path to God. All others mislead
                        > > their
                        > > > followers, because they themselves are misled." SKS 2, pg. 182
                        > > >
                        > > > "No one is worthy of God. It is only through the Grace of the
                        > > > supreme SUGMAD that we become worthy. Only the living ECK Master
                        > > can
                        > > > bring this Grace to those who seek IT, for he is the pure
                        > > instrument
                        > > > of God on Earth. So we must keep our faith with the living ECK
                        > > > Master and live in his presense as much as possible." SKS I,
                        pg. 19
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > But I do approach life with an open heart, and listen to my
                        inner
                        > > > > master (for lack of better word), which I realize is my very
                        own
                        > > > > higher self.
                        > > >
                        > > > You know, it's amazing how many millions of human beings simply
                        go
                        > > > thru life just fine and "naturally" without having to use airy-
                        > > fairy
                        > > > new-age cult jargon.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >I also am aware that when someone puts enough attention
                        > > > > on something, the that something begins to manifest itself in
                        > > > >his/her life.
                        > > >
                        > > > This isn't true, either. That's why lottery agencies and casinos
                        > > > make lots of money from people who put lots of attention on
                        > > winning.
                        > > >
                        > > > I could give you plenty of examples. It doesn't really matter
                        what
                        > > > you put your attention on and how much work you put into it. You
                        > > can
                        > > > still get those "kabooms"...of course, if you're a cult member
                        you
                        > > > can rationalize with that "karma" bullshit. So instead of having
                        > > > your headstone engraved with "...but he loooves me" you can
                        > > use "The
                        > > > conscious memory of my past life transgressions is blocked, but
                        I'm
                        > > > sure I deserved it."
                        > > >
                        > > > > Now with that said, I would like to weigh in on this subject
                        of
                        > > > > the "threats" in Eckankar's writings.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I have been deliberating and contemplating these messages you
                        > > have
                        > > > > posted here. After much contemplation and deliberation, there
                        > > > appears to be that there are two sides to this issue.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > First side being Threats and second side, Warnings.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On the surface, these two sides may appear to be one and the
                        > > same,
                        > > > > but I'd like to address both sides of this issue if I may.
                        First,
                        > > I
                        > > > > will post the dictionary's definition of these terms:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > threat,
                        > > > > –noun 1. a declaration of an intention or determination to
                        > > inflict
                        > > > > punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally
                        > > > upon,
                        > > > > some action or course; menace: He confessed under the threat
                        of
                        > > > > imprisonment.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > warn·ing,
                        > > > > –noun 1. the act or utterance of one who warns or the
                        > existence,
                        > > > > appearance, sound, etc., of a thing that warns.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Now, just suppose that you know of some danger one faces if
                        one
                        > > > > should act a certain way or do a certain deed. This knowledge
                        was
                        > > > > probably gained by you through experience by having done the
                        very
                        > > > act or deed that exposes such danger to you. Or, if not direct
                        > > > knowledge,
                        > > > > someone you trusted very much told you of that danger and you
                        had
                        > > > no
                        > > > > reason not to believe them. Wouldn't you want to warn people
                        > > about
                        > > > > this pending danger by saying something like "if you do this
                        > > > certain
                        > > > > deed, or act a certain way, then you will face this danger!"?
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't know whether to laugh or yawn here.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > We all know just how inarticulate Paul Twitchell was. A man of
                        > > > great
                        > > > > knowledge, but very little expertise in the way to word
                        sentences
                        > > > to
                        > > > > assure understanding.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Paul Twitchell was a liar, cheat, and a thief.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >I do believe that perhaps what is being
                        > > > > perceived as threats was perhaps warnings.
                        > > >
                        > > > Today's assignment:
                        > > >
                        > > > Identify the following quotes as "threats" or "warnings", and
                        > > explain
                        > > > why the difference (if any) matters:
                        > > >
                        > > > Twitchell in Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad #2, pg. 166: "Woe be unto him if
                        > > > he does (resign), for it is known among those who have reached
                        these
                        > > > lofty heights and witnessed the consequences of the few who
                        have.
                        > > > Those few have found that spiritual decay sets in immediately,
                        > > > affecting the health, material life and spiritual life, and
                        brings
                        > > > death more swiftly."
                        > > >
                        > > > "Bring me another beer and then get down on your knees and suck
                        my
                        > > > dick or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp."
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > "What few would recognize is that the Mahanta prevented the
                        > > dreamer's
                        > > > death. It often happens that a dreamer, who does not have the
                        > > > protection of the Mahanta, simply dies in his sleep. The doctor
                        > > > writes off the cause as heart failure or some other physical
                        > > > condition. Often as not, however, the dreamer had wandered
                        beyond
                        > > the
                        > > > safe limits of his inner world and met a psychic criminal, who
                        was
                        > > > responsible for his death. An experience that did not have to
                        be,
                        > > had
                        > > > he known of the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master." (the rest of
                        the
                        > > > story's at
                        > > > http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout5.html}
                        > > >
                        > > > Extra credit essay question: Read the rest of the story. Find
                        > > some
                        > > > statistics on people who die in their sleep "mysteriously" but
                        the
                        > > > death certificate says "heart failure" when there's no history
                        of
                        > > > heart trouble and the autopsy reveals no heart problems or
                        anything
                        > > > else wrong physically. (Adults deaths only, SIDS doesn't count
                        > > > because infants can't write checks.) State two possible reasons
                        > > for
                        > > > this story other than getting and keeping members, especially
                        > > > superstitious Africans.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > In any case, this is what
                        > > > > I want to believe because I cannot imagine anyone of such
                        > > spiritual
                        > > > > knowledge being able to diliberately mislead people.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Aha!!!!!!!! You got it!!! Maybe you just don't realize it.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > This is just my thoughts on this subject.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I know. I went thru the same thing.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > with deepest respect,
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I respect you too - at least you're thinking about it and not
                        just
                        > > > huing yourself into eckanfog!
                        > > >
                        > > > Take care & good luck!
                        > > >
                        > > > Sharon
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Sharon
                        Happy Halloween,everyone! Awesome quotes, Leaf! But geez, I m all confused with your two posts, I m compiling them for later use. Never used the Editor ,
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 29, 2007
                          Happy Halloween,everyone!

                          Awesome quotes, Leaf! But geez, I'm all confused with your two
                          posts, I'm "compiling" them for later use. Never used the "Editor",
                          but if I had my druthers I'd still be using my wonderful old 486 and
                          Windows 3.1!

                          One of these days I'd like to buy a subscription at Rubber Chicken
                          cards, but in the meantime I'm "cheating"! This one's great!

                          http://www.rubberchickencards.com/content.php/action/play_card/id/531/

                          And...free candy!!!
                          http://www.kmart.com/ue/home/100807_freeCandy.pdf
                          (Buy something while you're there and help keep KMart alive!
                          Walmarts are too darned big, can't walk that far unless it's in the
                          woods)

                          And on a more serious note, please check out:
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

                          Gotta go, anyone have a good cure for chocolate hangover??

                          Hugs,

                          Sharon
                        • tomleafeater
                          ... Confused about my posts? What are you confused about, Sharon? Leaf
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 29, 2007


                            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" <brighttigress@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Happy Halloween,everyone!
                            >
                            > Awesome quotes, Leaf!

                            >But geez, I'm all confused with your two
                            > posts, I'm "compiling" them for later use.

                             

                            Confused about my posts?  What are you confused about, Sharon?

                            Leaf

                             

                            >Never used the "Editor",
                            > but if I had my druthers I'd still be using my wonderful old 486 and
                            > Windows 3.1!
                            >
                            > One of these days I'd like to buy a subscription at Rubber Chicken
                            > cards, but in the meantime I'm "cheating"! This one's great!
                            >
                            > http://www.rubberchickencards.com/content.php/action/play_card/id/531/
                            >
                            > And...free candy!!!
                            > http://www.kmart.com/ue/home/100807_freeCandy.pdf
                            > (Buy something while you're there and help keep KMart alive!
                            > Walmarts are too darned big, can't walk that far unless it's in the
                            > woods)
                            >
                            > And on a more serious note, please check out:
                            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
                            >
                            > Gotta go, anyone have a good cure for chocolate hangover??
                            >
                            > Hugs,
                            >
                            > Sharon
                            >

                          • tomleafeater
                            In answer to the questions sent to me privately: H.I books: Reading an eckankar H.I. book is no different than reading any other eckankar book. In fact, once
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 1, 2007
                              In answer to the questions sent to me privately:


                              H.I books:

                              Reading an eckankar H.I. book is no different than reading any other
                              eckankar book. In fact, once you procure them from ebay (or whatever
                              your source is), you'll likely be very disappointed with the content,
                              if you're expecting something earth shattering. There isn't any
                              special information in the H.I. books. Its generally the same sort of
                              information you'll get from any eckankar book.

                              Even the "eckankar initiator's handbook" is lacking anything you
                              won't find in the general eckankar information commonly available,
                              with the exception of the list of "secret" words the initiator can
                              use to give to second initiates.

                              The threats that something ominous will befall those who read the
                              H.I. books before the fifth initiation is ridiculous. The same fluff
                              that is found in Harold's other books, the same style, the same sort
                              of stories, the same lack of depth, is found in the H.I books. The
                              prose is similar to what you'd find in any of his other writings. I
                              can state emphatically there isn't anything in the books that will
                              hurt you or damage you. It is laughable, really, that this sort of
                              scare tactic is used.

                              The H.I. books are unimpressive. Aside from the extra income
                              generated from the books for eckankar, which is substantial, the
                              books serve the purpose of making the H.I's feel as if they're part
                              of a special, elite group. This is the extent of the rewards H.I.'s
                              receive after dutifully following eckankar for all those years. And
                              oddly, it seems to work very well as a carrot stick for all of the
                              members who dream of H.I. stardom. In short, there is nothing in them
                              to write home about.

                              David Lane:

                              I see no evidence at all that Lane took back any words about
                              eckankar. In fact, he recently wrote rebuttals to Doug's latest
                              revision of his book. His web site is still up with the chapters of
                              Lane's book.

                              Funny, but Doug had the audacity to pitch his book on Lane's
                              Rahdasoami discussion site. Lane was very amiable and polite, but
                              stood his ground. You see, the information in the book is factual.
                              The information, therefore, stands on its own.

                              Sex at seminars:

                              Well, any time you get thousands of like-minded people together at a
                              nice hotel, there is likely going to be normal human activity, which
                              includes sex. Of course there was sex going on. Lots of sex. The
                              seminars are just big seminar groupie fests. They make money for
                              eckankar, and keep the flock coming back for more.

                              Leaf
                            • Colleen Russell
                              Leaf, Thank you so much for these revealing quotes. They and our belief in them years ago show the power of thought reform. Your commentary is excellent as
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 1, 2007
                                Leaf,

                                Thank you so much for these revealing quotes. They and our belief in
                                them years ago show the power of thought reform. Your commentary is
                                excellent as well. I'm glad that you've taken the time to compile
                                these.


                                Best to everyone,
                                Colleen
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