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Re: Censureship at Eckankar Survivors Anonymous?

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  • tomleafeater
    An interesting situation has developed at another ex-eckankar discussion group. Since one of my posts was censured there, it seems foolhardy to post there,
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 30, 2007
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      An interesting situation has developed at another ex-eckankar
      discussion group. Since one of my posts was censured there, it seems
      foolhardy to post there, since the moderators are free to do as they
      please, including editing and distorting my posts, and they can claim
      anything they would like to claim about anything I've written,
      without readers being able to know the difference between something
      I've actually written and something distorted.

      So as it is, I have little choice but to post this here in this
      group, if I want to clear up this nonsense.

      The issue is simple: A rather innocuous post was made by a person
      recounting an experience with her sixth initiate boyfriend, and one
      of the moderators mercilessly tore her posts to shreds in an erratic,
      caustic, at times incoherent, vicious reply.

      Upon reading the extremely unfair reply, I weighed in with my own
      reply to the woman, who's name is Marla. This reply was also posted
      on the other group, ESA. Some of her posts can be read here at
      eckankartruth, but the conversation also spilled over into ESA.

      ESA url: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/

      I also wrote some posts questioning the behavior of the moderators.
      As I see it, the moderators seem to be falling prey to having over
      the top suspicions of the posts coming in to their group. Accusations
      are flying around about who any particular poster really is. I have
      been accused of being Zoey. Zoey is acused of being Rich, Cheryl, and
      others.

      There seem to be control issues that are getting to be out of hand.

      The principle moderator of the group has emailed me privately (see
      his post to me at ESA) to assert that there have been private emails
      sent to him that are lewd, as if that somehow mitigates or excuses
      the issues I've raised about the treatment of Marla. I've just now
      read the moderators emails that describe the emails he claims explain
      his and his co-moderators behavior, and oddly, his explanations
      regarding the "lewd" emails have nothing to do with Marla at all.
      There is no material attributed to Marla that is lewd that he
      presented to me. In fact, there is no private communication he
      revealed that originated with Marla. Furthermore, I saw no examples
      of "lewd" emails by anyone else.

      Thus, nothing concerning my comments about Marla's treatment at the
      group has changed at all. I am open to receiving any other piece of
      private email the moderator may have received (which I will keep
      confidential) that may change the situation, but thus far, nothing he
      has given to me pertain to Marla at all.

      What he did reveal to me was a post he disallowed, written by another
      person. That post was not nearly as offensive as suggested (it wasn't
      lewd, for example), and although I do see the moderators point to a
      slight degree, it certainly could have been handled in a different
      manner, including simply being a little more open about the process.
      It wasn't really all that bad, and believe me, the issues in the post
      in question are ones I feel as strongly about as the moderators. It
      just doesn't measure up to the hyperbole and exagerations being made.

      I promised I would not reveal details, and I've refrained from doing
      so, but folks, so far, from what I've seen from the moderators
      private email to me, it seems to be much ado about nothing. I can't
      reveal the email, but if I could do so, I think most would be
      surprised that so much has been made of it.

      If anything, there seems to be a bit of paranoia (about one
      particular poster) that I am not yet convinced has merit at this
      point. I am going to look into the allegations of pseudonym
      suspicions by analyzing a few archived posts when I have the time,
      but so far, the person in question and her posts, from all that I can
      recall, are excellent. Hey, I may be wrong, but that is my take on
      the matter.

      So I say, much ado about nothing.

      And again, none of this material has anything to do with Marla, her
      treatment by the moderators, my post to her, and my criticism of the
      moderators.

      I think all anyone needs to do to shed light on this is to read the
      ESA group's co-moderator's posts, especially the one's to Marla and
      to me, and note the terribly erratic nature of those posts, and
      consider that this person is one of the principle persons coming
      forth with the accusations about the people involved.

      One more thing that is very revealing about the validity of the
      various allegations flying around: I think everyone here knows I've
      been posting on these various groups for years, everyone knows my
      style, and I think it should be clear that I am not Zoey, as one of
      the group's moderators recently suggested.

      Now think about this. I think everyone would agree that particular
      allegation is false, so then consider that all the other accusations
      (some of which I can't go into, since I promised to keep them
      confidential) are coming from the same persons.

      Bottom line: No matter what lies beneath any of the wild accusations,
      all of this could have been avoided simply by being a little more
      open, a little more reasonable, a little more tolerant, and a little
      less paranoid.


      Leafeater







      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > For those following the events over at ESA group, be aware that I
      > seem to have been place on "moderated" status. My last post there
      was
      > received by one of the moderators (Liz) and replied to, but the
      > original post does not show up, and the reply by Liz contains
      edited
      > and distorted versions of my post, which is highly unethical, since
      > the unedited version was not posted for people to read.
      >
      > I've sent in a test post to see what happens, but my last post
      > clearly does not show up.
      >
      > Please understand that anything that may show up on that site,
      > especially if it is represented as something I've written, may be
      > extremely distorted.
      >
      > Wow...first time in a long time since I've ever felt like going
      back
      > to read Farenheit 451 (Ray Bradberry's science fiction classic
      about
      > book burning and censureship).
      >
      > More later.
      >
      > ESA url: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/
      >
      > Leafeater
      >
    • tomleafeater
      [Cross-posted from ESA http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/] I will try once more to reply on ESA [see url above], and I post with the
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 2 4:17 PM
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        [Cross-posted from ESA
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/%5d

        I will try once more to reply on ESA [see url above], and I post with
        the understanding and expectation that my post will not be edited,
        abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If this
        can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this forum. Don't
        write about my posts with your own comments unless you allow readers
        to see the post entirely verbatim.

        Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
        either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of Eck" forums to
        get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting is
        necessary to insure integrity.

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck/

        Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his private emails
        to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding his
        private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY further
        distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have written.

        His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
        characterization of them does, once again, come close to breaching
        confidences. If this continues, I will post the private emails
        verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the content of
        those emails.

        Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails from Liz
        or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that my emails
        will be further characterized in a bad light.

        First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:

        Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):

        > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
        > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
        > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
        ness
        > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
        > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
        > long time!

        Leaf Replies:

        A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum, was responded
        to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending posts by
        persons who have been placed on "moderated" status. The post was
        chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete sentences, and
        replied to in her own post. The context of my post was changed, and
        thus what I communicated was distorted in the process. I can't make
        heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I find this
        treatment to be highly unethical.

        In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that was NOT
        entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."

        It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments about the
        post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post, without
        posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I see
        it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify unnecessary
        censureship of comments not to their liking.

        It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and Prometheus have
        the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts," while
        leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts and determine
        for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The samples
        revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not warrant the
        hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and Liz.

        Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey using
        pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can only wonder
        if there is any substance behind these allegations, since now even my
        own censured post is being described in exactly such a manner, and
        there have been hints that even I am using other pseudonyms
        besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.

        Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by Prometheus:

        Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):

        "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
        neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
        privately. There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was
        unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already
        formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I
        didn't want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
        moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
        created even more disharmony which became impossible to resolve."

        Leaf replies:

        My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've made
        concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by anything concerning
        Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they have with
        Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two separate
        issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only Marla, and
        don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked information
        concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make incorrect statements
        concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational thinking.

        Leafeater












        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
        <ewickings@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Marla,
        >
        > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
        > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this
        > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get
        an
        > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
        >
        > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members would
        > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat
        and
        > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
        > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my attempt
        at
        > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to
        share
        > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might
        allow
        > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
        listen.
        >
        > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
        > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to the
        > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
        > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
        provoke
        > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to
        my
        > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
        his/her
        > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
        > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by you.
        >
        > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
        > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
        > program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately
        and
        > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
        > posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in
        one
        > post.
        >
        > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf in
        > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I
        am
        > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
        > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
        >
        > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is exactly
        > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to him by
        > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
        > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
        > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
        >
        > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
        > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
        > they will come up against a brick wall.
        >
        > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
        > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
        > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
        ness
        > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
        > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
        > long time!
        >
        > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your post
        > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
        > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this post,
        as
        > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If Leaf
        > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals privately,
        > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove, provide
        or
        > justify myself to him!
        >
        > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
        > good intent.
        >
        > Liz
        >
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > Message #2687
        >
        > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
        >
        > Hi Non ekster,
        > It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
        > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
        > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
        > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
        > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
        > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
        > course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
        > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about a
        > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
        > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
        > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
        > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
        > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.
        >
        > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
        > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
        > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
        > person will place all blame on the other person while not taking
        > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
        > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth and
        > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a form
        > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women will
        > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or fail
        > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the steps
        > to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life
        becomes
        > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they enjoy
        > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was doing,
        > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It wasn't like
        > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she still
        saw
        > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said that
        > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the truth)
        > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked about"
        > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again it
        > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others caught in
        > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the
        relationship
        > story.
        >
        > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
        > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
        privately.
        > There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was unable
        > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already formed
        an
        > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I didn't
        > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
        moderator)
        > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This created even
        > more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.
        >
        > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit that
        > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it could
        > have been done better and kinder and there could have been more
        > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for that, on
        my
        > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
        >
        > Prometheus
        > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care of
        > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
        >
      • Paul Olson
        Now Now Kids…Play Nice! This stuff is why I so seldom post anything. But it’s a shame that someone as articulate and focused as Leaf should be edited!
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 2 4:29 PM
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          Now Now Kids…Play Nice!

           

          This stuff is why I so seldom post anything.  But it’s a shame that someone as articulate and focused as Leaf should be edited!

           

          Sword

          -------------------

          From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com [mailto: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of tomleafeater
          Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 4:18 PM
          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Censureship at Eckankar Survivors Anonymous?

           

          [Cross-posted from ESA
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/EckankarSu rvivorsAnonymous /]

          I will try once more to reply on ESA [see url above], and I post with
          the understanding and expectation that my post will not be edited,
          abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If this
          can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this forum. Don't
          write about my posts with your own comments unless you allow readers
          to see the post entirely verbatim.

          Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
          either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of Eck" forums to
          get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting is
          necessary to insure integrity.

          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/eckankartr uth/

          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/X-Eckankar _The-Chains- of-Eck/

          Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his private emails
          to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding his
          private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY further
          distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have written.

          His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
          characterization of them does, once again, come close to breaching
          confidences. If this continues, I will post the private emails
          verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the content of
          those emails.

          Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails from Liz
          or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that my emails
          will be further characterized in a bad light.

          First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:

          Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):

          > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
          > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
          > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
          ness
          > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
          > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
          > long time!

          Leaf Replies:

          A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum, was responded
          to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending posts by
          persons who have been placed on "moderated" status. The post was
          chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete sentences, and
          replied to in her own post. The context of my post was changed, and
          thus what I communicated was distorted in the process. I can't make
          heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I find this
          treatment to be highly unethical.

          In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that was NOT
          entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."

          It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments about the
          post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post, without
          posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I see
          it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify unnecessary
          censureship of comments not to their liking.

          It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and Prometheus have
          the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts," while
          leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts and determine
          for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The samples
          revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not warrant the
          hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and Liz.

          Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey using
          pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can only wonder
          if there is any substance behind these allegations, since now even my
          own censured post is being described in exactly such a manner, and
          there have been hints that even I am using other pseudonyms
          besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.

          Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by Prometheus:

          Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):

          "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
          neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
          privately. There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was
          unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already
          formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I
          didn't want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
          moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
          created even more disharmony which became impossible to resolve."

          Leaf replies:

          My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've made
          concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by anything concerning
          Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they have with
          Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two separate
          issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only Marla, and
          don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked information
          concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make incorrect statements
          concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational thinking.

          Leafeater

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn onymous@yahoogro ups.com, " Elizabeth "
          <ewickings@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Marla,
          >
          > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
          > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this
          > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get
          an
          > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
          >
          > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members would
          > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat
          and
          > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
          > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my attempt
          at
          > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to
          share
          > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might
          allow
          > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
          listen.
          >
          > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
          > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to the
          > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
          > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
          provoke
          > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to
          my
          > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
          his/her
          > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
          > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by you.
          >
          > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
          > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
          > program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately
          and
          > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
          > posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in
          one
          > post.
          >
          > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf in
          > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I
          am
          > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
          > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
          >
          > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is exactly
          > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to him by
          > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
          > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
          > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
          >
          > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
          > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
          > they will come up against a brick wall.
          >
          > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
          > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer Leaf's
          > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
          ness
          > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
          > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
          > long time!
          >
          > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your post
          > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
          > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this post,
          as
          > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If Leaf
          > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals privately,
          > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove, provide
          or
          > justify myself to him!
          >
          > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
          > good intent.
          >
          > Liz
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~
          > Message #2687
          >
          > Sharon ;-)
          Re: integrity
          >
          > Hi Non ekster,
          > It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
          > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
          > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
          > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
          > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
          > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
          > course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
          > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about a
          > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
          > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
          > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
          > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
          > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.
          >
          > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
          > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
          > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
          > person will place all blame on the other person while not taking
          > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
          > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth and
          > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a form
          > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women will
          > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or
          fail
          > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the steps
          > to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life
          becomes
          > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they enjoy
          > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was doing,
          > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It wasn't like
          > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she still
          saw
          > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said
          that
          > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the truth)
          > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked
          about"
          > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again it
          > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others caught in
          > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the
          relationship
          > story.
          >
          > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
          > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
          privately.
          > There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was unable
          > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already formed
          an
          > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I didn't
          > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
          moderator)
          > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This created even
          > more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.
          >
          > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit that
          > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it could
          > have been done better and kinder and there could have been more
          > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for that, on
          my
          > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
          >
          > Prometheus
          > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care of
          > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
          >

        • tomleafeater
          Update on the events at ESA: I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new post (I thjank them for that), but switched to my other email address
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 2 4:54 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Update on the events at ESA:

            I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new post (I
            thjank them for that), but switched to my other email address which
            reveals my actual name. This name has been revealed before by me, but
            I do like to keep that private. That's why I have a different email
            address that I use on these forums.

            Eckists who do opposition research (yes, they actually do this) have
            used personal names of vocal critics at alt.religion.eckankar (like
            myself) to actually cause trouble in the personal lives of such
            critics. Just ask Colleen (another member of this forum) about this,
            whose professional carreer was threatened by people contacting her
            professional board to file trumped up complaints. I too, was
            threatened in such a manner, although they never followed through
            with the threats that I know of. So I liike to keep the name out of
            the news, if you all don't mind.

            I've occasionaly revealed it by accident, but generally I prefer to
            keep it out of these discussions.

            I don't mind people calling me Kent, but otherwise keep my name out
            of this.

            To be absolutely clear, I did NOT log onto yahoo any time recently to
            change my email address with these forums, so this stinks to high
            heavens.

            To be exceedingly openminded and fair to the point of naivete', I
            suppose it could have been an error on their part, but since that
            email address had to be switched by someone, it had to be one of the
            moderators.

            Yikes.....and all I did was stick up for Marla.

            Leaf



            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Now Now Kids…Play Nice!
            >
            >
            >
            > This stuff is why I so seldom post anything. But it's a shame that
            someone
            > as articulate and focused as Leaf should be edited!
            >
            >
            >
            > Sword
            >
            > -------------------
            >
            > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of tomleafeater
            > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 4:18 PM
            > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Censureship at Eckankar Survivors
            Anonymous?
            >
            >
            >
            > [Cross-posted from ESA
            > http://groups.
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/>
            > yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/]
            >
            > I will try once more to reply on ESA [see url above], and I post
            with
            > the understanding and expectation that my post will not be edited,
            > abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If this
            > can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this forum.
            Don't
            > write about my posts with your own comments unless you allow
            readers
            > to see the post entirely verbatim.
            >
            > Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
            > either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of Eck" forums to
            > get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting is
            > necessary to insure integrity.
            >
            > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/>
            > yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
            >
            > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-
            of-Eck/>
            > yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck/
            >
            > Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his private emails
            > to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding his
            > private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY further
            > distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have written.
            >
            > His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
            > characterization of them does, once again, come close to breaching
            > confidences. If this continues, I will post the private emails
            > verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the content
            of
            > those emails.
            >
            > Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails from
            Liz
            > or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that my emails
            > will be further characterized in a bad light.
            >
            > First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:
            >
            > Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):
            >
            > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
            > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer
            Leaf's
            > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
            > ness
            > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
            > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
            > > long time!
            >
            > Leaf Replies:
            >
            > A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum, was
            responded
            > to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending posts by
            > persons who have been placed on "moderated" status. The post was
            > chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete sentences,
            and
            > replied to in her own post. The context of my post was changed, and
            > thus what I communicated was distorted in the process. I can't make
            > heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I find
            this
            > treatment to be highly unethical.
            >
            > In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that was NOT
            > entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."
            >
            > It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments about
            the
            > post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post, without
            > posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I see
            > it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify unnecessary
            > censureship of comments not to their liking.
            >
            > It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and Prometheus have
            > the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts," while
            > leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts and determine
            > for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The samples
            > revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not warrant the
            > hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and Liz.
            >
            > Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey using
            > pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can only wonder
            > if there is any substance behind these allegations, since now even
            my
            > own censured post is being described in exactly such a manner, and
            > there have been hints that even I am using other pseudonyms
            > besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.
            >
            > Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by Prometheus:
            >
            > Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):
            >
            > "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
            > neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
            > privately. There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I
            was
            > unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already
            > formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because
            I
            > didn't want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz
            (Co-
            > moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
            > created even more disharmony which became impossible to resolve."
            >
            > Leaf replies:
            >
            > My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've made
            > concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by anything
            concerning
            > Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they have with
            > Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two separate
            > issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only Marla, and
            > don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked information
            > concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make incorrect statements
            > concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational thinking.
            >
            > Leafeater
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn
            > <mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com>
            > onymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
            > <ewickings@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Marla,
            > >
            > > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
            > > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this
            > > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get
            > an
            > > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
            > >
            > > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members
            would
            > > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat
            > and
            > > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
            > > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my attempt
            > at
            > > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to
            > share
            > > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might
            > allow
            > > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
            > listen.
            > >
            > > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
            > > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to
            the
            > > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
            > > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
            > provoke
            > > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to
            > my
            > > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
            > his/her
            > > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
            > > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by
            you.
            > >
            > > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
            > > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
            > > program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately
            > and
            > > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
            > > posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in
            > one
            > > post.
            > >
            > > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf
            in
            > > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I
            > am
            > > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
            > > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
            > >
            > > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is
            exactly
            > > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to him by
            > > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
            > > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
            > > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
            > >
            > > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
            > > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
            > > they will come up against a brick wall.
            > >
            > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
            > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer
            Leaf's
            > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
            > ness
            > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
            > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
            > > long time!
            > >
            > > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your
            post
            > > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
            > > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this
            post,
            > as
            > > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If Leaf
            > > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals
            privately,
            > > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove,
            provide
            > or
            > > justify myself to him!
            > >
            > > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
            > > good intent.
            > >
            > > Liz
            > >
            > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > > Message #2687
            > >
            > > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
            > >
            > > Hi Non ekster,
            > > It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
            > > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
            > > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
            > > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
            > > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
            > > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
            > > course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
            > > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about a
            > > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
            > > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
            > > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
            > > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
            > > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.
            > >
            > > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
            > > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
            > > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
            > > person will place all blame on the other person while not taking
            > > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
            > > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth and
            > > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a form
            > > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women will
            > > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or fail
            > > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the steps
            > > to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life
            > becomes
            > > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they enjoy
            > > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was doing,
            > > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It wasn't
            like
            > > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she still
            > saw
            > > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said
            that
            > > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the truth)
            > > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked
            about"
            > > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again it
            > > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others caught
            in
            > > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the
            > relationship
            > > story.
            > >
            > > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
            > > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
            > privately.
            > > There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was unable
            > > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already formed
            > an
            > > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I didn't
            > > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
            > moderator)
            > > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This created
            even
            > > more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.
            > >
            > > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit that
            > > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it
            could
            > > have been done better and kinder and there could have been more
            > > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for that, on
            > my
            > > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care of
            > > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Leaf, I approved your post as you sent it. I didn t change anything to reveal your name. You did it, not me! Seems like I m damned if I do and damned if I
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 2 5:18 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Leaf,

              I approved your post as you sent it. I didn't change anything
              to reveal your name. You did it, not me! Seems like I'm damned
              if I do and damned if I don't. I don't know what to do for you
              at this point really. I can't appease you in anything I try to do.
              Tell you what, just post on the other sites. People will read it
              there. All this cross posting isn't necessary anyway. But please
              stop blaming ESA for everything that doesn't seem right to you.

              Prometheus


              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
              <tianyue@...> wrote:
              >
              > Update on the events at ESA:
              >
              > I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new post (I
              > thjank them for that), but switched to my other email address which
              > reveals my actual name. This name has been revealed before by me, but
              > I do like to keep that private. That's why I have a different email
              > address that I use on these forums.
              >
              > Eckists who do opposition research (yes, they actually do this) have
              > used personal names of vocal critics at alt.religion.eckankar (like
              > myself) to actually cause trouble in the personal lives of such
              > critics. Just ask Colleen (another member of this forum) about this,
              > whose professional carreer was threatened by people contacting her
              > professional board to file trumped up complaints. I too, was
              > threatened in such a manner, although they never followed through
              > with the threats that I know of. So I liike to keep the name out of
              > the news, if you all don't mind.
              >
              > I've occasionaly revealed it by accident, but generally I prefer to
              > keep it out of these discussions.
              >
              > I don't mind people calling me Kent, but otherwise keep my name out
              > of this.
              >
              > To be absolutely clear, I did NOT log onto yahoo any time recently to
              > change my email address with these forums, so this stinks to high
              > heavens.
              >
              > To be exceedingly openminded and fair to the point of naivete', I
              > suppose it could have been an error on their part, but since that
              > email address had to be switched by someone, it had to be one of the
              > moderators.
              >
              > Yikes.....and all I did was stick up for Marla.
              >
              > Leaf
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Now Now Kids…Play Nice!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > This stuff is why I so seldom post anything. But it's a shame that
              > someone
              > > as articulate and focused as Leaf should be edited!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Sword
              > >
              > > -------------------
              > >
              > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com]
              > > On Behalf Of tomleafeater
              > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 4:18 PM
              > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Censureship at Eckankar Survivors
              > Anonymous?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Cross-posted from ESA
              > > http://groups.
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/>
              > > yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/]
              > >
              > > I will try once more to reply on ESA [see url above], and I post
              > with
              > > the understanding and expectation that my post will not be edited,
              > > abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If this
              > > can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this forum.
              > Don't
              > > write about my posts with your own comments unless you allow
              > readers
              > > to see the post entirely verbatim.
              > >
              > > Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
              > > either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of Eck" forums to
              > > get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting is
              > > necessary to insure integrity.
              > >
              > > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/>
              > > yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
              > >
              > > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-
              > of-Eck/>
              > > yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck/
              > >
              > > Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his private emails
              > > to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding his
              > > private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY further
              > > distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have written.
              > >
              > > His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
              > > characterization of them does, once again, come close to breaching
              > > confidences. If this continues, I will post the private emails
              > > verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the content
              > of
              > > those emails.
              > >
              > > Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails from
              > Liz
              > > or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that my emails
              > > will be further characterized in a bad light.
              > >
              > > First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:
              > >
              > > Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):
              > >
              > > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
              > > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer
              > Leaf's
              > > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
              > > ness
              > > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
              > > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
              > > > long time!
              > >
              > > Leaf Replies:
              > >
              > > A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum, was
              > responded
              > > to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending posts by
              > > persons who have been placed on "moderated" status. The post was
              > > chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete sentences,
              > and
              > > replied to in her own post. The context of my post was changed, and
              > > thus what I communicated was distorted in the process. I can't make
              > > heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I find
              > this
              > > treatment to be highly unethical.
              > >
              > > In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that was NOT
              > > entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."
              > >
              > > It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments about
              > the
              > > post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post, without
              > > posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I see
              > > it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify unnecessary
              > > censureship of comments not to their liking.
              > >
              > > It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and Prometheus have
              > > the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts," while
              > > leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts and determine
              > > for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The samples
              > > revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not warrant the
              > > hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and Liz.
              > >
              > > Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey using
              > > pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can only wonder
              > > if there is any substance behind these allegations, since now even
              > my
              > > own censured post is being described in exactly such a manner, and
              > > there have been hints that even I am using other pseudonyms
              > > besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.
              > >
              > > Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by Prometheus:
              > >
              > > Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):
              > >
              > > "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
              > > neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
              > > privately. There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I
              > was
              > > unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already
              > > formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because
              > I
              > > didn't want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz
              > (Co-
              > > moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
              > > created even more disharmony which became impossible to resolve."
              > >
              > > Leaf replies:
              > >
              > > My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've made
              > > concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by anything
              > concerning
              > > Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they have with
              > > Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two separate
              > > issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only Marla, and
              > > don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked information
              > > concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make incorrect statements
              > > concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational thinking.
              > >
              > > Leafeater
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn
              > > <mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > onymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
              > > <ewickings@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Marla,
              > > >
              > > > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a reply to
              > > > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed this
              > > > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to get
              > > an
              > > > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
              > > >
              > > > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members
              > would
              > > > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-Chat
              > > and
              > > > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them (current
              > > > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my attempt
              > > at
              > > > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance to
              > > share
              > > > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that might
              > > allow
              > > > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
              > > listen.
              > > >
              > > > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
              > > > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages to
              > the
              > > > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any of
              > > > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
              > > provoke
              > > > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at least to
              > > my
              > > > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
              > > his/her
              > > > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by him/her?
              > > > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made by
              > you.
              > > >
              > > > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
              > > > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type of
              > > > program was being used to mask the origination of posts privately
              > > and
              > > > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs and
              > > > posters (which two of them being one person) did get addressed in
              > > one
              > > > post.
              > > >
              > > > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even Leaf
              > in
              > > > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess, but I
              > > am
              > > > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
              > > > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
              > > >
              > > > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is
              > exactly
              > > > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to him by
              > > > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not, and it
              > > > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
              > > > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
              > > >
              > > > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but when an
              > > > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern them,
              > > > they will come up against a brick wall.
              > > >
              > > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which was
              > > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer
              > Leaf's
              > > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the nasty
              > > ness
              > > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have nothing
              > > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a very
              > > > long time!
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning your
              > post
              > > > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
              > > > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this
              > post,
              > > as
              > > > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If Leaf
              > > > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals
              > privately,
              > > > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove,
              > provide
              > > or
              > > > justify myself to him!
              > > >
              > > > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were with
              > > > good intent.
              > > >
              > > > Liz
              > > >
              > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > > > Message #2687
              > > >
              > > > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
              > > >
              > > > Hi Non ekster,
              > > > It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
              > > > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
              > > > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
              > > > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
              > > > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
              > > > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
              > > > course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
              > > > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about a
              > > > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
              > > > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
              > > > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
              > > > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
              > > > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.
              > > >
              > > > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
              > > > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
              > > > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
              > > > person will place all blame on the other person while not taking
              > > > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
              > > > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth and
              > > > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a form
              > > > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women will
              > > > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or fail
              > > > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the steps
              > > > to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life
              > > becomes
              > > > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they enjoy
              > > > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was doing,
              > > > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It wasn't
              > like
              > > > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she still
              > > saw
              > > > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said
              > that
              > > > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the truth)
              > > > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked
              > about"
              > > > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again it
              > > > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others caught
              > in
              > > > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the
              > > relationship
              > > > story.
              > > >
              > > > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
              > > > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
              > > privately.
              > > > There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was unable
              > > > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already formed
              > > an
              > > > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I didn't
              > > > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
              > > moderator)
              > > > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This created
              > even
              > > > more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit that
              > > > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it
              > could
              > > > have been done better and kinder and there could have been more
              > > > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for that, on
              > > my
              > > > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care of
              > > > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • tomleafeater
              There is only one way that my email address that Yahoo groups uses can be changed: I have to physically log into Yahoo groups with my password and deliberately
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 2 5:28 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                There is only one way that my email address that Yahoo groups uses
                can be changed: I have to physically log into Yahoo groups with my
                password and deliberately elect to change to another email address. I
                always post at the Yahoo site, not from my email program.

                The name change only took effect on YOUR site, and not here on
                Eckankartruth, which is also a Yahoo group. If I'd made a change, the
                new address would have shown up here, as well. As anyone can see, it
                didn't.

                Let's see with this new post how my name shows up. If my real name is
                displayed, I apologize in advance with all due sincerity.

                If my usual "leafeater/tianyue" addy shows up here but not on your
                site, then someone at your end changed it, period. Case closed.

                Maybe one of your other moderators did it, or maybe you did it by
                mistake. If it wasn't deliberate, perhaps someone familiar with yahoo
                groups moderation can explain how it could possibly be an error. If
                it is an error on your part, I apologize.

                Leaf


                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Leaf,
                >
                > I approved your post as you sent it. I didn't change anything
                > to reveal your name. You did it, not me! Seems like I'm damned
                > if I do and damned if I don't. I don't know what to do for you
                > at this point really. I can't appease you in anything I try to do.
                > Tell you what, just post on the other sites. People will read it
                > there. All this cross posting isn't necessary anyway. But please
                > stop blaming ESA for everything that doesn't seem right to you.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                > <tianyue@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Update on the events at ESA:
                > >
                > > I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new post (I
                > > thjank them for that), but switched to my other email address
                which
                > > reveals my actual name. This name has been revealed before by me,
                but
                > > I do like to keep that private. That's why I have a different
                email
                > > address that I use on these forums.
                > >
                > > Eckists who do opposition research (yes, they actually do this)
                have
                > > used personal names of vocal critics at alt.religion.eckankar
                (like
                > > myself) to actually cause trouble in the personal lives of such
                > > critics. Just ask Colleen (another member of this forum) about
                this,
                > > whose professional carreer was threatened by people contacting
                her
                > > professional board to file trumped up complaints. I too, was
                > > threatened in such a manner, although they never followed through
                > > with the threats that I know of. So I liike to keep the name out
                of
                > > the news, if you all don't mind.
                > >
                > > I've occasionaly revealed it by accident, but generally I prefer
                to
                > > keep it out of these discussions.
                > >
                > > I don't mind people calling me Kent, but otherwise keep my name
                out
                > > of this.
                > >
                > > To be absolutely clear, I did NOT log onto yahoo any time
                recently to
                > > change my email address with these forums, so this stinks to high
                > > heavens.
                > >
                > > To be exceedingly openminded and fair to the point of naivete', I
                > > suppose it could have been an error on their part, but since that
                > > email address had to be switched by someone, it had to be one of
                the
                > > moderators.
                > >
                > > Yikes.....and all I did was stick up for Marla.
                > >
                > > Leaf
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Now Now Kids…Play Nice!
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > This stuff is why I so seldom post anything. But it's a shame
                that
                > > someone
                > > > as articulate and focused as Leaf should be edited!
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Sword
                > > >
                > > > -------------------
                > > >
                > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com]
                > > > On Behalf Of tomleafeater
                > > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 4:18 PM
                > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Censureship at Eckankar Survivors
                > > Anonymous?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Cross-posted from ESA
                > > > http://groups.
                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/>
                > > > yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/]
                > > >
                > > > I will try once more to reply on ESA [see url above], and I
                post
                > > with
                > > > the understanding and expectation that my post will not be
                edited,
                > > > abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If
                this
                > > > can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this forum.
                > > Don't
                > > > write about my posts with your own comments unless you allow
                > > readers
                > > > to see the post entirely verbatim.
                > > >
                > > > Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
                > > > either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of Eck"
                forums to
                > > > get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting is
                > > > necessary to insure integrity.
                > > >
                > > > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/>
                > > > yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                > > >
                > > > http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-
                Chains-
                > > of-Eck/>
                > > > yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck/
                > > >
                > > > Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his private
                emails
                > > > to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding his
                > > > private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY further
                > > > distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have written.
                > > >
                > > > His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
                > > > characterization of them does, once again, come close to
                breaching
                > > > confidences. If this continues, I will post the private emails
                > > > verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the
                content
                > > of
                > > > those emails.
                > > >
                > > > Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails
                from
                > > Liz
                > > > or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that my
                emails
                > > > will be further characterized in a bad light.
                > > >
                > > > First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:
                > > >
                > > > Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):
                > > >
                > > > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which
                was
                > > > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer
                > > Leaf's
                > > > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the
                nasty
                > > > ness
                > > > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have
                nothing
                > > > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a
                very
                > > > > long time!
                > > >
                > > > Leaf Replies:
                > > >
                > > > A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum, was
                > > responded
                > > > to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending posts by
                > > > persons who have been placed on "moderated" status. The post
                was
                > > > chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete
                sentences,
                > > and
                > > > replied to in her own post. The context of my post was changed,
                and
                > > > thus what I communicated was distorted in the process. I can't
                make
                > > > heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I find
                > > this
                > > > treatment to be highly unethical.
                > > >
                > > > In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that was
                NOT
                > > > entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."
                > > >
                > > > It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments
                about
                > > the
                > > > post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post, without
                > > > posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I
                see
                > > > it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify
                unnecessary
                > > > censureship of comments not to their liking.
                > > >
                > > > It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and Prometheus
                have
                > > > the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts,"
                while
                > > > leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts and
                determine
                > > > for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The samples
                > > > revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not warrant
                the
                > > > hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and Liz.
                > > >
                > > > Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey using
                > > > pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can only
                wonder
                > > > if there is any substance behind these allegations, since now
                even
                > > my
                > > > own censured post is being described in exactly such a manner,
                and
                > > > there have been hints that even I am using other pseudonyms
                > > > besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.
                > > >
                > > > Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by
                Prometheus:
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):
                > > >
                > > > "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of Zoey's
                > > > neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
                > > > privately. There was also confusion with what was said to whom.
                I
                > > was
                > > > unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had
                already
                > > > formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status
                because
                > > I
                > > > didn't want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately
                Liz
                > > (Co-
                > > > moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in part.
                This
                > > > created even more disharmony which became impossible to
                resolve."
                > > >
                > > > Leaf replies:
                > > >
                > > > My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've made
                > > > concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by anything
                > > concerning
                > > > Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they have
                with
                > > > Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two
                separate
                > > > issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only Marla,
                and
                > > > don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked
                information
                > > > concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make incorrect
                statements
                > > > concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational thinking.
                > > >
                > > > Leafeater
                > > >
                > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn
                > > > <mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > onymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
                > > > <ewickings@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Marla,
                > > > >
                > > > > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It was a
                reply to
                > > > > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you missed
                this
                > > > > particular message? At any rate, the questions were posted to
                get
                > > > an
                > > > > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
                > > > >
                > > > > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck members
                > > would
                > > > > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such as Hu-
                Chat
                > > > and
                > > > > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask them
                (current
                > > > > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was my
                attempt
                > > > at
                > > > > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the chance
                to
                > > > share
                > > > > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions that
                might
                > > > allow
                > > > > you the chance again to share your experience, and for me to
                > > > listen.
                > > > >
                > > > > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same post. As
                > > > > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty messages
                to
                > > the
                > > > > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated any
                of
                > > > > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we actually
                > > > provoke
                > > > > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and moderated, at
                least to
                > > > my
                > > > > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial comments to
                > > > his/her
                > > > > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read by
                him/her?
                > > > > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts made
                by
                > > you.
                > > > >
                > > > > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and when an
                > > > > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what type
                of
                > > > > program was being used to mask the origination of posts
                privately
                > > > and
                > > > > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three differing IDs
                and
                > > > > posters (which two of them being one person) did get
                addressed in
                > > > one
                > > > > post.
                > > > >
                > > > > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or even
                Leaf
                > > in
                > > > > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I guess,
                but I
                > > > am
                > > > > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier by only
                > > > > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
                > > > >
                > > > > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is
                > > exactly
                > > > > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested to
                him by
                > > > > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did not,
                and it
                > > > > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared with him
                > > > > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was handled.
                > > > >
                > > > > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts, but
                when an
                > > > > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not concern
                them,
                > > > > they will come up against a brick wall.
                > > > >
                > > > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording which
                was
                > > > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to answer
                > > Leaf's
                > > > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the
                nasty
                > > > ness
                > > > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I have
                nothing
                > > > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET in a
                very
                > > > > long time!
                > > > >
                > > > > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had concerning
                your
                > > post
                > > > > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to others
                > > > > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in this
                > > post,
                > > > as
                > > > > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and Rowan_Oak22. If
                Leaf
                > > > > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals
                > > privately,
                > > > > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove,
                > > provide
                > > > or
                > > > > justify myself to him!
                > > > >
                > > > > Again, please understand I am curious and the questions were
                with
                > > > > good intent.
                > > > >
                > > > > Liz
                > > > >
                > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > > > > Message #2687
                > > > >
                > > > > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi Non ekster,
                > > > > It seems weird to me as well! It started with Marlasobbing
                > > > > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to share
                > > > > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some negative
                > > > > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that he
                > > > > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to his
                > > > > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers! Of
                > > > > course, I don't know how she really knew about the condom,
                > > > > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story about
                a
                > > > > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for either
                > > > > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned how he
                > > > > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked this
                > > > > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
                > > > > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly demeanor.
                > > > >
                > > > > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is always a
                > > > > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the wrong
                > > > > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the rejected
                > > > > person will place all blame on the other person while not
                taking
                > > > > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the signs, and
                > > > > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the truth
                and
                > > > > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me, is a
                form
                > > > > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some women
                will
                > > > > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it or
                fail
                > > > > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the
                steps
                > > > > to correct their destructive decision making processes. Life
                > > > becomes
                > > > > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe they
                enjoy
                > > > > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla was
                doing,
                > > > > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It
                wasn't
                > > like
                > > > > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus, she
                still
                > > > saw
                > > > > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and said
                > > that
                > > > > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of the
                truth)
                > > > > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have "talked
                > > about"
                > > > > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but then again
                it
                > > > > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw others
                caught
                > > in
                > > > > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of the
                > > > relationship
                > > > > story.
                > > > >
                > > > > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware of
                Zoey's
                > > > > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site and
                > > > privately.
                > > > > There was also confusion with what was said to whom. I was
                unable
                > > > > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had already
                formed
                > > > an
                > > > > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status because I
                didn't
                > > > > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately Liz (Co-
                > > > moderator)
                > > > > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
                created
                > > even
                > > > > more disharmony which became impossible to resolve.
                > > > >
                > > > > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I admit
                that
                > > > > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and that it
                > > could
                > > > > have been done better and kinder and there could have been
                more
                > > > > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So for
                that, on
                > > > my
                > > > > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > > > > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and taking care
                of
                > > > > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • tomleafeater
                Well, for what its worth...here s another update, and some thoughts for Marla, if she s reading this. I logged into my Yahoo groups account, and I see that
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 2 11:29 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well, for what its worth...here's another update, and some
                  thoughts for Marla, if she's reading this.

                  I logged into my Yahoo groups account, and I see that with all my
                  yahoo groups that I hold memberships with, ESA has been
                  changed to my alternate email address that is stored in my
                  Yahoo file. The other two groups still have my usual email
                  address.

                  Now, I did NOT change this. That is a cold, hard fact. I haven't
                  logged into Yahoo accounts in ages.

                  I figure that when I was placed on moderated status by the
                  moderators at ESA, they somehow switched me to the alternate
                  email address that is on file in my account.

                  This may have been deliberate or not. I can't say.

                  So now, unless this is changed, I am forced to use an email
                  address I'd rather not use, if I ever post there.

                  This is getting stranger by the day.

                  Well, I just have to laugh....not at anyone or with malice, just
                  laugh....

                  I'm okay with all this, at peace with myself.

                  Its been one crazy and wild adventure!

                  I may post a wrap-up of all this, and some final thoughts, when I
                  have time. Then I may retreat back into my peronsal life,
                  although I'll probably check back in once in a while.

                  For now, I'd like to say to Marla one thing, if she's reading here:

                  I left eckankar about ten years ago, after joining when I was
                  about sixteen years old, and have been reading the eckankar
                  sites for quite some time, off and on. I've seen some strange
                  and wacky things come and go that have been posted.

                  There was nothing at all controversial with your posts, nothing
                  even slightly unusual or inappropriate compared to what has
                  always been posted over the years on these forums.

                  In fact, your posts, I'd say, were fairly usual and normal. This is
                  why it is so puzzling that you were singled out for such a tongue
                  lashing. It makes no sense to me, with all that I've seen over the
                  years.

                  I'm sorry (oops, not supposed to say 'sorry' in eckankar, I just
                  can't seem to follow the little rules anymore--hee, hee) you were
                  put through such an ordeal in your contact with these
                  ex-eckankar groups. You deserved to be respected and to be
                  treated with dignity. That didn't happen. You seem like a very
                  good, decent and smart person to me. You've handled it all with
                  poise.

                  You'll be fine, I'm sure.

                  Although I'm not the moderator here, I think its safe to say you
                  should feel free to post at this forum, if you liike. There have been
                  a great many decent and good people post here over the years.
                  You're welcome here, although I wouldn't blame you if you leave
                  any thought of eckankar behind and never look back.

                  Funny, that's what these forums were supposed to be all about.

                  More later.

                  Leaf



                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                  <tianyue@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > There is only one way that my email address that Yahoo
                  groups uses
                  > can be changed: I have to physically log into Yahoo groups with
                  my
                  > password and deliberately elect to change to another email
                  address. I
                  > always post at the Yahoo site, not from my email program.
                  >
                  > The name change only took effect on YOUR site, and not here
                  on
                  > Eckankartruth, which is also a Yahoo group. If I'd made a
                  change, the
                  > new address would have shown up here, as well. As anyone
                  can see, it
                  > didn't.
                  >
                  > Let's see with this new post how my name shows up. If my real
                  name is
                  > displayed, I apologize in advance with all due sincerity.
                  >
                  > If my usual "leafeater/tianyue" addy shows up here but not on
                  your
                  > site, then someone at your end changed it, period. Case
                  closed.
                  >
                  > Maybe one of your other moderators did it, or maybe you did it
                  by
                  > mistake. If it wasn't deliberate, perhaps someone familiar with
                  yahoo
                  > groups moderation can explain how it could possibly be an
                  error. If
                  > it is an error on your part, I apologize.
                  >
                  > Leaf
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Leaf,
                  > >
                  > > I approved your post as you sent it. I didn't change anything
                  > > to reveal your name. You did it, not me! Seems like I'm
                  damned
                  > > if I do and damned if I don't. I don't know what to do for you
                  > > at this point really. I can't appease you in anything I try to do.
                  > > Tell you what, just post on the other sites. People will read it
                  > > there. All this cross posting isn't necessary anyway. But
                  please
                  > > stop blaming ESA for everything that doesn't seem right to
                  you.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                  > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Update on the events at ESA:
                  > > >
                  > > > I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new
                  post (I
                  > > > thjank them for that), but switched to my other email
                  address
                  > which
                  > > > reveals my actual name. This name has been revealed
                  before by me,
                  > but
                  > > > I do like to keep that private. That's why I have a different
                  > email
                  > > > address that I use on these forums.
                  > > >
                  > > > Eckists who do opposition research (yes, they actually do
                  this)
                  > have
                  > > > used personal names of vocal critics at
                  alt.religion.eckankar
                  > (like
                  > > > myself) to actually cause trouble in the personal lives of
                  such
                  > > > critics. Just ask Colleen (another member of this forum)
                  about
                  > this,
                  > > > whose professional carreer was threatened by people
                  contacting
                  > her
                  > > > professional board to file trumped up complaints. I too,
                  was
                  > > > threatened in such a manner, although they never followed
                  through
                  > > > with the threats that I know of. So I liike to keep the name
                  out
                  > of
                  > > > the news, if you all don't mind.
                  > > >
                  > > > I've occasionaly revealed it by accident, but generally I
                  prefer
                  > to
                  > > > keep it out of these discussions.
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't mind people calling me Kent, but otherwise keep my
                  name
                  > out
                  > > > of this.
                  > > >
                  > > > To be absolutely clear, I did NOT log onto yahoo any time
                  > recently to
                  > > > change my email address with these forums, so this stinks
                  to high
                  > > > heavens.
                  > > >
                  > > > To be exceedingly openminded and fair to the point of
                  naivete', I
                  > > > suppose it could have been an error on their part, but since
                  that
                  > > > email address had to be switched by someone, it had to be
                  one of
                  > the
                  > > > moderators.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yikes.....and all I did was stick up for Marla.
                  > > >
                  > > > Leaf
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson"
                  <Paul@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now Now Kids…Play Nice!
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > This stuff is why I so seldom post anything. But it's a
                  shame
                  > that
                  > > > someone
                  > > > > as articulate and focused as Leaf should be edited!
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Sword
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > > From: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > [mailto:eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > > On Behalf Of tomleafeater
                  > > > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 4:18 PM
                  > > > > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Censureship at Eckankar
                  Survivors
                  > > > Anonymous?
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Cross-posted from ESA
                  > > > > http://groups.
                  > > >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/>
                  > > > > yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/]
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I will try once more to reply on ESA [see url above], and I
                  > post
                  > > > with
                  > > > > the understanding and expectation that my post will not
                  be
                  > edited,
                  > > > > abbreviated, taken out of context, or changed in any way. If
                  > this
                  > > > > can't be honored, then please do not reply to me on this
                  forum.
                  > > > Don't
                  > > > > write about my posts with your own comments unless
                  you allow
                  > > > readers
                  > > > > to see the post entirely verbatim.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Readers here are directed to read my posts/replies at
                  > > > > either "EckankarTruth" or "X-Eckankar, The Chains of
                  Eck"
                  > forums to
                  > > > > get an accurate read of my posts. I feel the cross-posting
                  is
                  > > > > necessary to insure integrity.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://groups.
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/>
                  > > > > yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://groups.
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-
                  > Chains-
                  > > > of-Eck/>
                  > > > > yahoo.com/group/X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck/
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Also, I privately told Prometheus in response to his
                  private
                  > emails
                  > > > > to me that all promises of confidentiality I made regarding
                  his
                  > > > > private emails would be rescinded if there were ANY
                  further
                  > > > > distortions or misrepresentations of ANYthing I have
                  written.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > His and Liz's reference to those private emails and their
                  > > > > characterization of them does, once again, come close to
                  > breaching
                  > > > > confidences. If this continues, I will post the private
                  emails
                  > > > > verbatim, in order to let readers judge for themselves the
                  > content
                  > > > of
                  > > > > those emails.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Also, I am unlikely to respond to any future private emails
                  > from
                  > > > Liz
                  > > > > or Prometheus, since there is a distinct possibility that
                  my
                  > emails
                  > > > > will be further characterized in a bad light.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > First, I'd like to respond to this statement by Liz:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Liz wrote (see her complete post below for context):
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording
                  which
                  > was
                  > > > > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to
                  answer
                  > > > Leaf's
                  > > > > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the
                  > nasty
                  > > > > ness
                  > > > > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I
                  have
                  > nothing
                  > > > > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET
                  in a
                  > very
                  > > > > > long time!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Leaf Replies:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > A post of mine, which was not allowed on the ESA forum,
                  was
                  > > > responded
                  > > > > to in a post by Liz, who has private access to pending
                  posts by
                  > > > > persons who have been placed on "moderated" status.
                  The post
                  > was
                  > > > > chopped up into fragments, sometimes without complete
                  > sentences,
                  > > > and
                  > > > > replied to in her own post. The context of my post was
                  changed,
                  > and
                  > > > > thus what I communicated was distorted in the process. I
                  can't
                  > make
                  > > > > heads or tails out of some of my own words in her reply. I
                  find
                  > > > this
                  > > > > treatment to be highly unethical.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In my view, there was nothing in the post that I wrote that
                  was
                  > NOT
                  > > > > entirely warranted. It was not "nasty."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It is a violation of trust for Liz to make ongoing comments
                  > about
                  > > > the
                  > > > > post, such as claim there was "nastiness" in the post,
                  without
                  > > > > posting it exactly as I'd written it, whole and unedited. As I
                  > see
                  > > > > it, the "nastiness" assertion is being used to justify
                  > unnecessary
                  > > > > censureship of comments not to their liking.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > It is also very disturbing to me that both Liz and
                  Prometheus
                  > have
                  > > > > the practice of continually alleging "lewd" or "nasty posts,"
                  > while
                  > > > > leaving no manner for the readers to see those posts
                  and
                  > determine
                  > > > > for themselves whether they deserve such epithets. The
                  samples
                  > > > > revealed to me by Prometheus in private emails do not
                  warrant
                  > the
                  > > > > hyperbole and exagerations made by Prometheus and
                  Liz.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thus, as to Prometheus' and Liz's allegations about Zoey
                  using
                  > > > > pseudonyms and sending in "nasty" private emails, I can
                  only
                  > wonder
                  > > > > if there is any substance behind these allegations, since
                  now
                  > even
                  > > > my
                  > > > > own censured post is being described in exactly such a
                  manner,
                  > and
                  > > > > there have been hints that even I am using other
                  pseudonyms
                  > > > > besides "leafeater," which is absolutely not true.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Another comment I'd like to address is this remark by
                  > Prometheus:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Prometheus wrote (see below for complete context):
                  > > > >
                  > > > > "Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being unaware
                  of Zoey's
                  > > > > neg. involvement. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site
                  and
                  > > > > privately. There was also confusion with what was said to
                  whom.
                  > I
                  > > > was
                  > > > > unable to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had
                  > already
                  > > > > formed an opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated
                  status
                  > because
                  > > > I
                  > > > > didn't want to keep the discussion escalating.
                  Unfortunately
                  > Liz
                  > > > (Co-
                  > > > > moderator)read a pending message and replied to it in
                  part.
                  > This
                  > > > > created even more disharmony which became
                  impossible to
                  > resolve."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Leaf replies:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > My posts to Marla, as well as other related posts I've
                  made
                  > > > > concerning Marla, were not in any way prompted by
                  anything
                  > > > concerning
                  > > > > Zoey. Liz and Prometheus are conflating the issues they
                  have
                  > with
                  > > > > Marla on one hand, and Zoey on the other, which are two
                  > separate
                  > > > > issues. My comments regarding Marla are regarding only
                  Marla,
                  > and
                  > > > > don't relate to Zoey. So the implication that I lacked
                  > information
                  > > > > concerning Zoey which somehow led me to make
                  incorrect
                  > statements
                  > > > > concerning Marla makes no sense and defies rational
                  thinking.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Leafeater
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAn
                  > > > >
                  <mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > onymous@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth"
                  > > > > <ewickings@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi Marla,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Please read message #2687 which I posted below, It
                  was a
                  > reply to
                  > > > > > you, along with questions I had for you. Maybe you
                  missed
                  > this
                  > > > > > particular message? At any rate, the questions were
                  posted to
                  > get
                  > > > > an
                  > > > > > idea of your history from this ex HI bf.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > One thing I would really like to know is how the Eck
                  members
                  > > > would
                  > > > > > react if you had gone to an eckankar yahoo group such
                  as Hu-
                  > Chat
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > asked them the same questions? And if you do ask
                  them
                  > (current
                  > > > > > eckists) please share your experience. Anyway, it was
                  my
                  > attempt
                  > > > > at
                  > > > > > having a conversation to clear the air, give you the
                  chance
                  > to
                  > > > > share
                  > > > > > your story in more depth. My chance to ask questions
                  that
                  > might
                  > > > > allow
                  > > > > > you the chance again to share your experience, and for
                  me to
                  > > > > listen.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > You will see I also responded to Zoey in this same
                  post. As
                  > > > > > Prometheus shared, he/she was sending private nasty
                  messages
                  > to
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > group, and privately. Neither Prometheus, nor I initiated
                  any
                  > of
                  > > > > > these private conversations with him/her, nor did we
                  actually
                  > > > > provoke
                  > > > > > some of the posts that was sent to ESA and
                  moderated, at
                  > least to
                  > > > > my
                  > > > > > knowlege. I went back and looked over my initial
                  comments to
                  > > > > his/her
                  > > > > > 9Zoey's) questions, and apparently they were not read
                  by
                  > him/her?
                  > > > > > This individual got nasty first, on the skirts of posts
                  made
                  > by
                  > > > you.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Doing further research and comparing posts, IDs, and
                  when an
                  > > > > > individual signed up and joined / left the group, what
                  type
                  > of
                  > > > > > program was being used to mask the origination of
                  posts
                  > privately
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > to the group, (which were moderated) yes three
                  differing IDs
                  > and
                  > > > > > posters (which two of them being one person) did get
                  > addressed in
                  > > > > one
                  > > > > > post.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I do appologise for including my comments to Zoey, or
                  even
                  > Leaf
                  > > > in
                  > > > > > the same post as the one to you. Not a good excuse I
                  guess,
                  > but I
                  > > > > am
                  > > > > > rather busy and was attempting to make my life easier
                  by only
                  > > > > > presenting one message. I won't do that again.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I do not feel the need to explain myself to Leaf, which is
                  > > > exactly
                  > > > > > what I intended for him to understand. It was suggested
                  to
                  > him by
                  > > > > > Prometheus to contact us (me) privately, yet Leaf did
                  not,
                  > and it
                  > > > > > appears he also did not take what Prometheus shared
                  with him
                  > > > > > (privately) as enough proof to warrent how Zoey was
                  handled.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I also was an admirer of Leaf's excellent sage posts,
                  but
                  > when an
                  > > > > > individual DEMANDS anything of me, when it does not
                  concern
                  > them,
                  > > > > > they will come up against a brick wall.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > And for the record, I didn't edit a post or the wording
                  which
                  > was
                  > > > > > sent (but not approved) though I did use portions to
                  answer
                  > > > Leaf's
                  > > > > > questions. The rest was left out due to the nature of the
                  > nasty
                  > > > > ness
                  > > > > > He can claim what ever he wishes, here or on ET. I
                  have
                  > nothing
                  > > > > > further to debate with him. BTW, I haven't posted on ET
                  in a
                  > very
                  > > > > > long time!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Anyway, below is a copy of the questions I had
                  concerning
                  > your
                  > > > post
                  > > > > > about integrity. A portion of the post was directed to
                  others
                  > > > > > besides yourself, of which I explained the reasoning in
                  this
                  > > > post,
                  > > > > as
                  > > > > > well in posts in answer to Leaf, Zoey and
                  Rowan_Oak22. If
                  > Leaf
                  > > > > > wishes to continue dialog with any of these individuals
                  > > > privately,
                  > > > > > that is his business. But I do not feel the need to prove,
                  > > > provide
                  > > > > or
                  > > > > > justify myself to him!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Again, please understand I am curious and the
                  questions were
                  > with
                  > > > > > good intent.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Liz
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > > > > > Message #2687
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Sharon ;-) Re: integrity
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi Non ekster,
                  > > > > > It seems weird to me as well! It started with
                  Marlasobbing
                  > > > > > coming over here from ET. She, apparently, wanted to
                  share
                  > > > > > (with more people) her frustrations, anger, and some
                  negative
                  > > > > > information about her ex-6th Initiate boyfriend and that
                  he
                  > > > > > wasn't very "spiritual" since he carried a condom next to
                  his
                  > > > > > Eck I.D. card, and that he cheated on her with hookers!
                  Of
                  > > > > > course, I don't know how she really knew about the
                  condom,
                  > > > > > the cheating, or the hookers, but it was a juicy story
                  about
                  > a
                  > > > > > male H.I. misbehaving (which is really nothing new for
                  either
                  > > > > > gender for Eckists in general). She, also, mentioned
                  how he
                  > > > > > had taken her for an E.S.A. session and that she liked
                  this
                  > > > > > female H.I. and, basically, said that the E.S.A. was very
                  > > > > > convincing with her silver tongue and friendly
                  demeanor.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I don't see that the term Victim Consciousness is
                  always a
                  > > > > > New Age term, especially, when it's applied to the
                  wrong
                  > > > > > "relationship" choices that we make. Sometimes the
                  rejected
                  > > > > > person will place all blame on the other person while
                  not
                  > taking
                  > > > > > responsibility for making a bad choice, seeing the
                  signs, and
                  > > > > > admitting they screwed up. Closing one's eyes to the
                  truth
                  > and
                  > > > > > then blaming the other person or someone else, to me,
                  is a
                  > form
                  > > > > > of Victim Consciousness. It's kind of like how some
                  women
                  > will
                  > > > > > choose "bad boys" and then not take responsibility for it
                  or
                  > fail
                  > > > > > to (and refuse to) look into the "why" and then taking the
                  > steps
                  > > > > > to correct their destructive decision making processes.
                  Life
                  > > > > becomes
                  > > > > > one long drama or soap opera for some people. Maybe
                  they
                  > enjoy
                  > > > > > the attention too! I'm not saying this was what Marla
                  was
                  > doing,
                  > > > > > but it seemed like it was possible and after awhile. It
                  > wasn't
                  > > > like
                  > > > > > it was a super long relationship (one year) IMO. Plus,
                  she
                  > still
                  > > > > saw
                  > > > > > it in a "romantic" way! That's why I agreed with Liz and
                  said
                  > > > that
                  > > > > > it was seeming like this was a one-sided version (of
                  the
                  > truth)
                  > > > > > from a woman scorned. I know that I should not have
                  "talked
                  > > > about"
                  > > > > > Marla nor made this observation or assumption, but
                  then again
                  > it
                  > > > > > reminded me of situations in the past where I saw
                  others
                  > caught
                  > > > in
                  > > > > > similar circumstances and one heard only one side of
                  the
                  > > > > relationship
                  > > > > > story.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Leaf then came to Marla's defense while being
                  unaware of
                  > Zoey's
                  > > > > > neg. involvment. Zoey (he/she) got very nasty on the site
                  and
                  > > > > privately.
                  > > > > > There was also confusion with what was said to whom.
                  I was
                  > unable
                  > > > > > to discuss this with Leaf privately because he had
                  already
                  > formed
                  > > > > an
                  > > > > > opinion. I put Leaf on temporary moderated status
                  because I
                  > didn't
                  > > > > > want to keep the discussion escalating. Unfortunately
                  Liz (Co-
                  > > > > moderator)
                  > > > > > read a pending message and replied to it in part. This
                  > created
                  > > > even
                  > > > > > more disharmony which became impossible to
                  resolve.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Anyway, it was an interesting learning experience. I
                  admit
                  > that
                  > > > > > there were mistakes made (people aren't perfect) and
                  that it
                  > > > could
                  > > > > > have been done better and kinder and there could have
                  been
                  > more
                  > > > > > tolerance and consideration given to one another. So
                  for
                  > that, on
                  > > > > my
                  > > > > > part, I apologize to Marla and to everyone.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Prometheus
                  > > > > > p.s. I do appreciate Liz being a Co-moderator and
                  taking care
                  > of
                  > > > > > the sites while I am away. Thanks Liz!
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Elizabeth
                  FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a moderator edited or switched a poster s email or address once it gets approved, all one has to do
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 3 9:53 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a
                    moderator edited or switched a poster's email or address once it gets
                    approved, all one has to do is look at the post in question, to the
                    right and below the date it will say: "Show message option". If you
                    click the tiny arrow it will expand the area to show: "View
                    Source", "Use Fixed Width Font", or "Unwrap Lines". Click the one
                    that says "Show message". It will then open up the post at the left
                    of the page, and before the actual message it will show who it is
                    from, return path, Received.... Etc which for most people is hard to
                    read let alone understand if you have no clue what you are looking
                    for. Down toward the bottom of all that strange stuff you will see
                    From, Subject, X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public or it might say member, if
                    it says public, it means the person sending a post is not a member of
                    the group. The last line will show: X-eGroups-Approved-By: either
                    Prometheus or myself over on ESA. It will also show if anything was
                    edited, and by which moderator. This pertains to the message posted
                    on ESA Re: Group FYI

                    If this explaination is too difficult for anyone to understand, then
                    I guess the point is not worth explaining further... This is not too
                    difficult to prove to yourselves. It is impossible to remove or
                    change a person's message without it showing this within the "Show
                    Message Option" as I referrenced. Of course one way to accomplish
                    doing any editing and posting, would be to forward one of these
                    moderated posts from the original message, and post it yourself as a
                    moderator. Which in this case in question, was not how it happened
                    on ESA!

                    Hope everyone has an enjoyable July 4th Holiday week/end.
                    Liz

                    Leaf wrote:
                    --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Well, for what its worth...here's another update, and some
                    > thoughts for Marla, if she's reading this.
                    >
                    > I logged into my Yahoo groups account, and I see that with all my
                    > yahoo groups that I hold memberships with, ESA has been
                    > changed to my alternate email address that is stored in my
                    > Yahoo file. The other two groups still have my usual email
                    > address.
                    >
                    > Now, I did NOT change this. That is a cold, hard fact. I haven't
                    > logged into Yahoo accounts in ages.
                    >
                    > I figure that when I was placed on moderated status by the
                    > moderators at ESA, they somehow switched me to the alternate
                    > email address that is on file in my account.
                    >
                    > This may have been deliberate or not. I can't say.
                    >
                    > So now, unless this is changed, I am forced to use an email
                    > address I'd rather not use, if I ever post there.
                    >
                    > This is getting stranger by the day.
                    >
                    > Well, I just have to laugh....not at anyone or with malice, just
                    > laugh....
                    >
                    > I'm okay with all this, at peace with myself.
                    >
                    > Its been one crazy and wild adventure!
                    >
                    > I may post a wrap-up of all this, and some final thoughts, when I
                    > have time. Then I may retreat back into my peronsal life,
                    > although I'll probably check back in once in a while.
                    >
                    > For now, I'd like to say to Marla one thing, if she's reading here:
                    >
                    > I left eckankar about ten years ago, after joining when I was
                    > about sixteen years old, and have been reading the eckankar
                    > sites for quite some time, off and on. I've seen some strange
                    > and wacky things come and go that have been posted.
                    >
                    > There was nothing at all controversial with your posts, nothing
                    > even slightly unusual or inappropriate compared to what has
                    > always been posted over the years on these forums.
                    >
                    > In fact, your posts, I'd say, were fairly usual and normal. This is
                    > why it is so puzzling that you were singled out for such a tongue
                    > lashing. It makes no sense to me, with all that I've seen over the
                    > years.
                    >
                    > I'm sorry (oops, not supposed to say 'sorry' in eckankar, I just
                    > can't seem to follow the little rules anymore--hee, hee) you were
                    > put through such an ordeal in your contact with these
                    > ex-eckankar groups. You deserved to be respected and to be
                    > treated with dignity. That didn't happen. You seem like a very
                    > good, decent and smart person to me. You've handled it all with
                    > poise.
                    >
                    > You'll be fine, I'm sure.
                    >
                    > Although I'm not the moderator here, I think its safe to say you
                    > should feel free to post at this forum, if you liike. There have
                    been
                    > a great many decent and good people post here over the years.
                    > You're welcome here, although I wouldn't blame you if you leave
                    > any thought of eckankar behind and never look back.
                    >
                    > Funny, that's what these forums were supposed to be all about.
                    >
                    > More later.
                    >
                    > Leaf
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                    > <tianyue@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > There is only one way that my email address that Yahoo
                    > groups uses
                    > > can be changed: I have to physically log into Yahoo groups with
                    > my
                    > > password and deliberately elect to change to another email
                    > address. I
                    > > always post at the Yahoo site, not from my email program.
                    > >
                    > > The name change only took effect on YOUR site, and not here
                    > on
                    > > Eckankartruth, which is also a Yahoo group. If I'd made a
                    > change, the
                    > > new address would have shown up here, as well. As anyone
                    > can see, it
                    > > didn't.
                    > >
                    > > Let's see with this new post how my name shows up. If my real
                    > name is
                    > > displayed, I apologize in advance with all due sincerity.
                    > >
                    > > If my usual "leafeater/tianyue" addy shows up here but not on
                    > your
                    > > site, then someone at your end changed it, period. Case
                    > closed.
                    > >
                    > > Maybe one of your other moderators did it, or maybe you did it
                    > by
                    > > mistake. If it wasn't deliberate, perhaps someone familiar with
                    > yahoo
                    > > groups moderation can explain how it could possibly be an
                    > error. If
                    > > it is an error on your part, I apologize.
                    > >
                    > > Leaf
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Leaf,
                    > > >
                    > > > I approved your post as you sent it. I didn't change anything
                    > > > to reveal your name. You did it, not me! Seems like I'm
                    > damned
                    > > > if I do and damned if I don't. I don't know what to do for you
                    > > > at this point really. I can't appease you in anything I try to
                    do.
                    > > > Tell you what, just post on the other sites. People will read it
                    > > > there. All this cross posting isn't necessary anyway. But
                    > please
                    > > > stop blaming ESA for everything that doesn't seem right to
                    > you.
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                    > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Update on the events at ESA:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new
                    > post (I
                    > > > > thjank them for that), but switched to my other email
                    > address
                    > > which
                    > > > > reveals my actual name.


                    <snipped for redundancy reasons! by Liz ;-)>
                  • Elizabeth
                    And obviously for this to work, one would have to be logged on at the yahoo ET website reading the messages. It won t show up in an individual message going
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 3 9:58 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      And obviously for this to work, one would have to be logged on at the
                      yahoo ET website reading the messages. It won't show up in an
                      individual message going to your email accounts! Just thought I
                      should clarify that in case someone wishes to make a case out of my
                      explanation to the Censorship ! :-)))

                      Liz

                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth" <ewickings@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a
                      > moderator edited or switched a poster's email or address once it
                      gets
                      > approved, all one has to do is look at the post in question, to the
                      > right and below the date it will say: "Show message option". If
                      you
                      > click the tiny arrow it will expand the area to show: "View
                      > Source", "Use Fixed Width Font", or "Unwrap Lines". Click the
                      one
                      > that says "Show message". It will then open up the post at the
                      left
                      > of the page, and before the actual message it will show who it is
                      > from, return path, Received.... Etc which for most people is hard
                      to
                      > read let alone understand if you have no clue what you are looking
                      > for. Down toward the bottom of all that strange stuff you will see
                      > From, Subject, X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public or it might say member,
                      if
                      > it says public, it means the person sending a post is not a member
                      of
                      > the group. The last line will show: X-eGroups-Approved-By: either
                      > Prometheus or myself over on ESA. It will also show if anything
                      was
                      > edited, and by which moderator. This pertains to the message
                      posted
                      > on ESA Re: Group FYI
                      >
                      > If this explaination is too difficult for anyone to understand,
                      then
                      > I guess the point is not worth explaining further... This is not
                      too
                      > difficult to prove to yourselves. It is impossible to remove or
                      > change a person's message without it showing this within the "Show
                      > Message Option" as I referrenced. Of course one way to accomplish
                      > doing any editing and posting, would be to forward one of these
                      > moderated posts from the original message, and post it yourself as
                      a
                      > moderator. Which in this case in question, was not how it happened
                      > on ESA!
                      >
                      > Hope everyone has an enjoyable July 4th Holiday week/end.
                      > Liz
                    • tomleafeater
                      Not so fast, Liz. I ve checked into my Yahoo groups account, which lists the groups I am a member of on Yahoo. The two other ex-eckankar groups are still
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 3 11:29 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Not so fast, Liz. I've checked into my Yahoo groups account, which
                        lists the groups I am a member of on Yahoo. The two other ex-eckankar
                        groups are still there, but the ESA group has been deleted.

                        This, of course, was done by Prometheus when he deleted my
                        membership. I'd thought moderated status was different than complete
                        deletion of membership.

                        In any case, I have NO membership with ESA to edit, so there are
                        obviously no membership choices for me to select or deselect.

                        So, since my usual email address was banned by him, Yahoo groups
                        apparently automatically reverted to my alternate email address which
                        is still stored in yahoo groups. It seems to be a quirk in yahoo
                        group programming. There is no way for me to change that other than
                        re-establishing membership in ESA (sorry, no thanks), or deleting
                        from my general yahoo account the alternate address, which I may do.

                        Prometheus has as much stated the same thing over at ESA. I accept
                        this explanation, and that it was not deliberate on the part of
                        Prometheus. Of course, Prometheus' act of completely banning/deleting
                        the email address set these events in motion, but I can see that he
                        could not have known this would happen. When I last I to ESA, I did
                        not notice the automatic reversion back to the other email address.

                        Fair enough for you, Liz?

                        On this forum, I am so far NOT banned. So here, when you make a
                        statement, you get an answer.

                        On your group, you have control of the bully pulpit, so you can make
                        any statement you want with inpunity.

                        No one will answer you if you decide you don't like the answer.

                        This is called censureship when you have complete control of what
                        gets posted, and can decide how you want to manipulate the
                        discussion.

                        So I won't be posting on your group. You've become tyrannical in your
                        style of managing the group.

                        Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

                        Leaf




                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth" <ewickings@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a
                        > moderator edited or switched a poster's email or address once it
                        gets
                        > approved, all one has to do is look at the post in question, to the
                        > right and below the date it will say: "Show message option". If
                        you
                        > click the tiny arrow it will expand the area to show: "View
                        > Source", "Use Fixed Width Font", or "Unwrap Lines". Click the
                        one
                        > that says "Show message". It will then open up the post at the
                        left
                        > of the page, and before the actual message it will show who it is
                        > from, return path, Received.... Etc which for most people is hard
                        to
                        > read let alone understand if you have no clue what you are looking
                        > for. Down toward the bottom of all that strange stuff you will see
                        > From, Subject, X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public or it might say member,
                        if
                        > it says public, it means the person sending a post is not a member
                        of
                        > the group. The last line will show: X-eGroups-Approved-By: either
                        > Prometheus or myself over on ESA. It will also show if anything
                        was
                        > edited, and by which moderator. This pertains to the message
                        posted
                        > on ESA Re: Group FYI
                        >
                        > If this explaination is too difficult for anyone to understand,
                        then
                        > I guess the point is not worth explaining further... This is not
                        too
                        > difficult to prove to yourselves. It is impossible to remove or
                        > change a person's message without it showing this within the "Show
                        > Message Option" as I referrenced. Of course one way to accomplish
                        > doing any editing and posting, would be to forward one of these
                        > moderated posts from the original message, and post it yourself as
                        a
                        > moderator. Which in this case in question, was not how it happened
                        > on ESA!
                        >
                        > Hope everyone has an enjoyable July 4th Holiday week/end.
                        > Liz
                        >
                        > Leaf wrote:
                        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Well, for what its worth...here's another update, and some
                        > > thoughts for Marla, if she's reading this.
                        > >
                        > > I logged into my Yahoo groups account, and I see that with all my
                        > > yahoo groups that I hold memberships with, ESA has been
                        > > changed to my alternate email address that is stored in my
                        > > Yahoo file. The other two groups still have my usual email
                        > > address.
                        > >
                        > > Now, I did NOT change this. That is a cold, hard fact. I haven't
                        > > logged into Yahoo accounts in ages.
                        > >
                        > > I figure that when I was placed on moderated status by the
                        > > moderators at ESA, they somehow switched me to the alternate
                        > > email address that is on file in my account.
                        > >
                        > > This may have been deliberate or not. I can't say.
                        > >
                        > > So now, unless this is changed, I am forced to use an email
                        > > address I'd rather not use, if I ever post there.
                        > >
                        > > This is getting stranger by the day.
                        > >
                        > > Well, I just have to laugh....not at anyone or with malice, just
                        > > laugh....
                        > >
                        > > I'm okay with all this, at peace with myself.
                        > >
                        > > Its been one crazy and wild adventure!
                        > >
                        > > I may post a wrap-up of all this, and some final thoughts, when I
                        > > have time. Then I may retreat back into my peronsal life,
                        > > although I'll probably check back in once in a while.
                        > >
                        > > For now, I'd like to say to Marla one thing, if she's reading
                        here:
                        > >
                        > > I left eckankar about ten years ago, after joining when I was
                        > > about sixteen years old, and have been reading the eckankar
                        > > sites for quite some time, off and on. I've seen some strange
                        > > and wacky things come and go that have been posted.
                        > >
                        > > There was nothing at all controversial with your posts, nothing
                        > > even slightly unusual or inappropriate compared to what has
                        > > always been posted over the years on these forums.
                        > >
                        > > In fact, your posts, I'd say, were fairly usual and normal. This
                        is
                        > > why it is so puzzling that you were singled out for such a tongue
                        > > lashing. It makes no sense to me, with all that I've seen over
                        the
                        > > years.
                        > >
                        > > I'm sorry (oops, not supposed to say 'sorry' in eckankar, I just
                        > > can't seem to follow the little rules anymore--hee, hee) you
                        were
                        > > put through such an ordeal in your contact with these
                        > > ex-eckankar groups. You deserved to be respected and to be
                        > > treated with dignity. That didn't happen. You seem like a very
                        > > good, decent and smart person to me. You've handled it all with
                        > > poise.
                        > >
                        > > You'll be fine, I'm sure.
                        > >
                        > > Although I'm not the moderator here, I think its safe to say you
                        > > should feel free to post at this forum, if you liike. There have
                        > been
                        > > a great many decent and good people post here over the years.
                        > > You're welcome here, although I wouldn't blame you if you leave
                        > > any thought of eckankar behind and never look back.
                        > >
                        > > Funny, that's what these forums were supposed to be all about.
                        > >
                        > > More later.
                        > >
                        > > Leaf
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                        > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > There is only one way that my email address that Yahoo
                        > > groups uses
                        > > > can be changed: I have to physically log into Yahoo groups with
                        > > my
                        > > > password and deliberately elect to change to another email
                        > > address. I
                        > > > always post at the Yahoo site, not from my email program.
                        > > >
                        > > > The name change only took effect on YOUR site, and not here
                        > > on
                        > > > Eckankartruth, which is also a Yahoo group. If I'd made a
                        > > change, the
                        > > > new address would have shown up here, as well. As anyone
                        > > can see, it
                        > > > didn't.
                        > > >
                        > > > Let's see with this new post how my name shows up. If my real
                        > > name is
                        > > > displayed, I apologize in advance with all due sincerity.
                        > > >
                        > > > If my usual "leafeater/tianyue" addy shows up here but not on
                        > > your
                        > > > site, then someone at your end changed it, period. Case
                        > > closed.
                        > > >
                        > > > Maybe one of your other moderators did it, or maybe you did it
                        > > by
                        > > > mistake. If it wasn't deliberate, perhaps someone familiar with
                        > > yahoo
                        > > > groups moderation can explain how it could possibly be an
                        > > error. If
                        > > > it is an error on your part, I apologize.
                        > > >
                        > > > Leaf
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                        > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Leaf,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I approved your post as you sent it. I didn't change anything
                        > > > > to reveal your name. You did it, not me! Seems like I'm
                        > > damned
                        > > > > if I do and damned if I don't. I don't know what to do for you
                        > > > > at this point really. I can't appease you in anything I try
                        to
                        > do.
                        > > > > Tell you what, just post on the other sites. People will read
                        it
                        > > > > there. All this cross posting isn't necessary anyway. But
                        > > please
                        > > > > stop blaming ESA for everything that doesn't seem right to
                        > > you.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Prometheus
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                        > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Update on the events at ESA:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new
                        > > post (I
                        > > > > > thjank them for that), but switched to my other email
                        > > address
                        > > > which
                        > > > > > reveals my actual name.
                        >
                        >
                        > <snipped for redundancy reasons! by Liz ;-)>
                        >
                      • Elizabeth
                        LOL okay Kent, what ever you say. BTW, a person can read from ESA and not be a member, and they still in fact can post a message to the group without having
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 3 12:37 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          LOL okay Kent, what ever you say.

                          BTW, a person can read from ESA and not be a member, and they still
                          in fact can post a message to the group without having to join!

                          This happens at ESA because that was how Prometheus desided to set
                          the group up. It is "public", and can be read by anyone as I am
                          sure you already knew.

                          People have attempted posting replys to messages there, and even
                          though they are not officially a member, their message obviously gets
                          sent to the "pending file" until a moderator desides to allow "it"
                          access to the group.

                          So the info describing how to check a message that I mentioned
                          earlier, can be done as I explained.

                          You wrote: "So, since my usual email address was banned by him, Yahoo
                          groups apparently automatically reverted to my alternate email
                          address which is still stored in yahoo groups."

                          Well that could be the case, so maybe you should look into it. Yet,
                          as I said a person does not have to be a member to post at ESA, it's
                          up to Prometheus to deside if it gets posted, then the person is
                          usually invited to join.

                          If someone is not paying attention to what email addy they are
                          attempting to use, (for what ever reason, maybe confussion or
                          frustration, or ?) well that isn't the moderators fault!

                          Just thought I would clarify that with those that are bothering to
                          keep up with this rediculous Censorship post. LOL

                          This really is very easy to prove if one is willing to check!

                          Liz

                          PS/ Not sure if Mish posted this URL link here on ET, haven't read
                          the messages here in ages!

                          So sharing this very interesting link:


                          "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves.
                          They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without stopping
                          to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to
                          you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
                          yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making
                          stuff up, or are crazy."

                          In short, a narcissist can confuse you and it
                          appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.

                          http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html




                          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Not so fast, Liz. I've checked into my Yahoo groups account, which
                          > lists the groups I am a member of on Yahoo. The two other ex-
                          eckankar
                          > groups are still there, but the ESA group has been deleted.
                          >
                          > This, of course, was done by Prometheus when he deleted my
                          > membership. I'd thought moderated status was different than
                          complete
                          > deletion of membership.
                          >
                          > In any case, I have NO membership with ESA to edit, so there are
                          > obviously no membership choices for me to select or deselect.
                          >
                          > So, since my usual email address was banned by him, Yahoo groups
                          > apparently automatically reverted to my alternate email address
                          which
                          > is still stored in yahoo groups. It seems to be a quirk in yahoo
                          > group programming. There is no way for me to change that other than
                          > re-establishing membership in ESA (sorry, no thanks), or deleting
                          > from my general yahoo account the alternate address, which I may do.
                          >
                          > Prometheus has as much stated the same thing over at ESA. I accept
                          > this explanation, and that it was not deliberate on the part of
                          > Prometheus. Of course, Prometheus' act of completely
                          banning/deleting
                          > the email address set these events in motion, but I can see that he
                          > could not have known this would happen. When I last I to ESA, I did
                          > not notice the automatic reversion back to the other email address.
                          >
                          > Fair enough for you, Liz?
                          >
                          > On this forum, I am so far NOT banned. So here, when you make a
                          > statement, you get an answer.
                          >
                          > On your group, you have control of the bully pulpit, so you can
                          make
                          > any statement you want with inpunity.
                          >
                          > No one will answer you if you decide you don't like the answer.
                          >
                          > This is called censureship when you have complete control of what
                          > gets posted, and can decide how you want to manipulate the
                          > discussion.
                          >
                          > So I won't be posting on your group. You've become tyrannical in
                          your
                          > style of managing the group.
                          >
                          > Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
                          >
                          > Leaf
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth" <ewickings@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a
                          > > moderator edited or switched a poster's email or address once it
                          > gets
                          > > approved, all one has to do is look at the post in question, to
                          the
                          > > right and below the date it will say: "Show message option". If
                          > you
                          > > click the tiny arrow it will expand the area to show: "View
                          > > Source", "Use Fixed Width Font", or "Unwrap Lines". Click the
                          > one
                          > > that says "Show message". It will then open up the post at the
                          > left
                          > > of the page, and before the actual message it will show who it is
                          > > from, return path, Received.... Etc which for most people is hard
                          > to
                          > > read let alone understand if you have no clue what you are
                          looking
                          > > for. Down toward the bottom of all that strange stuff you will
                          see
                          > > From, Subject, X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public or it might say
                          member,
                          > if
                          > > it says public, it means the person sending a post is not a
                          member
                          > of
                          > > the group. The last line will show: X-eGroups-Approved-By:
                          either
                          > > Prometheus or myself over on ESA. It will also show if anything
                          > was
                          > > edited, and by which moderator. This pertains to the message
                          > posted
                          > > on ESA Re: Group FYI
                          > >
                          > > If this explaination is too difficult for anyone to understand,
                          > then
                          > > I guess the point is not worth explaining further... This is not
                          > too
                          > > difficult to prove to yourselves. It is impossible to remove or
                          > > change a person's message without it showing this within
                          the "Show
                          > > Message Option" as I referrenced. Of course one way to
                          accomplish
                          > > doing any editing and posting, would be to forward one of these
                          > > moderated posts from the original message, and post it yourself
                          as
                          > a
                          > > moderator. Which in this case in question, was not how it
                          happened
                          > > on ESA!
                          > >
                          > > Hope everyone has an enjoyable July 4th Holiday week/end.
                          > > Liz
                          > >
                          > > Leaf wrote:
                          > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Well, for what its worth...here's another update, and some
                          > > > thoughts for Marla, if she's reading this.
                          > > >
                          > > > I logged into my Yahoo groups account, and I see that with all
                          my
                          > > > yahoo groups that I hold memberships with, ESA has been
                          > > > changed to my alternate email address that is stored in my
                          > > > Yahoo file. The other two groups still have my usual email
                          > > > address.
                          > > >
                          > > > Now, I did NOT change this. That is a cold, hard fact. I
                          haven't
                          > > > logged into Yahoo accounts in ages.
                          > > >
                          > > > I figure that when I was placed on moderated status by the
                          > > > moderators at ESA, they somehow switched me to the alternate
                          > > > email address that is on file in my account.
                          > > >
                          > > > This may have been deliberate or not. I can't say.
                          > > >
                          > > > So now, unless this is changed, I am forced to use an email
                          > > > address I'd rather not use, if I ever post there.
                          > > >
                          > > > This is getting stranger by the day.
                          > > >
                          > > > Well, I just have to laugh....not at anyone or with malice,
                          just
                          > > > laugh....
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm okay with all this, at peace with myself.
                          > > >
                          > > > Its been one crazy and wild adventure!
                          > > >
                          > > > I may post a wrap-up of all this, and some final thoughts, when
                          I
                          > > > have time. Then I may retreat back into my peronsal life,
                          > > > although I'll probably check back in once in a while.
                          > > >
                          > > > For now, I'd like to say to Marla one thing, if she's reading
                          > here:
                          > > >
                          > > > I left eckankar about ten years ago, after joining when I was
                          > > > about sixteen years old, and have been reading the eckankar
                          > > > sites for quite some time, off and on. I've seen some strange
                          > > > and wacky things come and go that have been posted.
                          > > >
                          > > > There was nothing at all controversial with your posts, nothing
                          > > > even slightly unusual or inappropriate compared to what has
                          > > > always been posted over the years on these forums.
                          > > >
                          > > > In fact, your posts, I'd say, were fairly usual and normal.
                          This
                          > is
                          > > > why it is so puzzling that you were singled out for such a
                          tongue
                          > > > lashing. It makes no sense to me, with all that I've seen over
                          > the
                          > > > years.
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm sorry (oops, not supposed to say 'sorry' in eckankar, I
                          just
                          > > > can't seem to follow the little rules anymore--hee, hee) you
                          > were
                          > > > put through such an ordeal in your contact with these
                          > > > ex-eckankar groups. You deserved to be respected and to be
                          > > > treated with dignity. That didn't happen. You seem like a very
                          > > > good, decent and smart person to me. You've handled it all
                          with
                          > > > poise.
                          > > >
                          > > > You'll be fine, I'm sure.
                          > > >
                          > > > Although I'm not the moderator here, I think its safe to say
                          you
                          > > > should feel free to post at this forum, if you liike. There
                          have
                          > > been
                          > > > a great many decent and good people post here over the years.
                          > > > You're welcome here, although I wouldn't blame you if you leave
                          > > > any thought of eckankar behind and never look back.
                          > > >
                          > > > Funny, that's what these forums were supposed to be all about.
                          > > >
                          > > > More later.
                          > > >
                          > > > Leaf
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                          > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There is only one way that my email address that Yahoo
                          > > > groups uses
                          > > > > can be changed: I have to physically log into Yahoo groups
                          with
                          > > > my
                          > > > > password and deliberately elect to change to another email
                          > > > address. I
                          > > > > always post at the Yahoo site, not from my email program.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The name change only took effect on YOUR site, and not here
                          > > > on
                          > > > > Eckankartruth, which is also a Yahoo group. If I'd made a
                          > > > change, the
                          > > > > new address would have shown up here, as well. As anyone
                          > > > can see, it
                          > > > > didn't.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Let's see with this new post how my name shows up. If my real
                          > > > name is
                          > > > > displayed, I apologize in advance with all due sincerity.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > If my usual "leafeater/tianyue" addy shows up here but not on
                          > > > your
                          > > > > site, then someone at your end changed it, period. Case
                          > > > closed.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Maybe one of your other moderators did it, or maybe you did
                          it
                          > > > by
                          > > > > mistake. If it wasn't deliberate, perhaps someone familiar
                          with
                          > > > yahoo
                          > > > > groups moderation can explain how it could possibly be an
                          > > > error. If
                          > > > > it is an error on your part, I apologize.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Leaf
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                          > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Leaf,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I approved your post as you sent it. I didn't change
                          anything
                          > > > > > to reveal your name. You did it, not me! Seems like I'm
                          > > > damned
                          > > > > > if I do and damned if I don't. I don't know what to do for
                          you
                          > > > > > at this point really. I can't appease you in anything I try
                          > to
                          > > do.
                          > > > > > Tell you what, just post on the other sites. People will
                          read
                          > it
                          > > > > > there. All this cross posting isn't necessary anyway. But
                          > > > please
                          > > > > > stop blaming ESA for everything that doesn't seem right to
                          > > > you.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Prometheus
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                          > > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Update on the events at ESA:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new
                          > > > post (I
                          > > > > > > thjank them for that), but switched to my other email
                          > > > address
                          > > > > which
                          > > > > > > reveals my actual name.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > <snipped for redundancy reasons! by Liz ;-)>
                          > >
                          >
                        • tomleafeater
                          As to your implication that I m a narcissist, I must ask you where you obtained your degree in psychology or medicine? Even well trained professionals in those
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 3 4:34 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            As to your implication that I'm a narcissist, I must ask you where
                            you obtained your degree in psychology or medicine?

                            Even well trained professionals in those fields have trouble making
                            good diagnoses of patients, especially without carefully taking in a
                            proper history and the signs and symptoms of a patient. This takes
                            years of training and skill.

                            People who try to do this over the internet, even with training, are
                            taking the risk of making grave errors.

                            If making a good diagnosis were as easy as reading some stuff on the
                            internet, then anyone could practice psychotherapy or medicine with
                            absolutely no training.

                            That's why there are laws about practicing medicine without a license.

                            Amateur pop psychologists (i.e., people like you) will usually end up
                            making complete fools of themselves.

                            I remember that there was another fellow posting here that, as I
                            recall, you thought was a narcissist. It seems the narcissist label
                            is one of your favorite diagnoses of people you disagree with.

                            Furthermore, the signs of narcissism you posted, ironically, really
                            do sound a lot like YOU. Perhaps that is why *that* particular
                            condition seems to continually attract your interest? Just a thought,
                            Maestra.

                            Again, dear one, when you post here, you are likely to get an answer
                            you might not enjoy. Can't ban me here...

                            A few other points regarding your post:

                            LIZ WROTE(see below for entire context):

                            >You wrote: "So, since my usual email address was banned by him,
                            Yahoo
                            > groups apparently automatically reverted to my alternate email
                            > address which is still stored in yahoo groups."
                            >
                            > Well that could be the case, so maybe you should look into it.

                            LIZ ALSO WROTE:

                            > If someone is not paying attention to what email addy they are
                            > attempting to use, (for what ever reason, maybe confussion or
                            > frustration, or ?) well that isn't the moderators fault!

                            LEAF REPLIES:

                            In the future, please completely read my post before replying to it.
                            Its clear you didn't comprehend my post.

                            First, regarding your suggestion that I look into what I've said
                            occurred with Yahoo groups when Prometheus banned me from ESA:

                            You must have missed the part in my post in which I explained that I
                            already *DID* look into Yahoo groups. That's how I concluded it was
                            Yahoo groups program that automatically reverted back to my alternate
                            email address.

                            Second, since I didn't change the email address, there was no reason
                            for me to have known that it had been changed automatically by Yahoo,
                            so therefore I didn't notice the change, my dear.

                            The reason the change occurred automatically is because my usual
                            email address was banned by Prometheus. Since I didn't know he had
                            entirely deleted my membership, there was no reason for me to looking
                            for such changes when I posted.


                            Leaf


                            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth" <ewickings@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > LOL okay Kent, what ever you say.
                            >
                            > BTW, a person can read from ESA and not be a member, and they still
                            > in fact can post a message to the group without having to join!
                            >
                            > This happens at ESA because that was how Prometheus desided to set
                            > the group up. It is "public", and can be read by anyone as I am
                            > sure you already knew.
                            >
                            > People have attempted posting replys to messages there, and even
                            > though they are not officially a member, their message obviously
                            gets
                            > sent to the "pending file" until a moderator desides to allow "it"
                            > access to the group.
                            >
                            > So the info describing how to check a message that I mentioned
                            > earlier, can be done as I explained.
                            >
                            > You wrote: "So, since my usual email address was banned by him,
                            Yahoo
                            > groups apparently automatically reverted to my alternate email
                            > address which is still stored in yahoo groups."
                            >
                            > Well that could be the case, so maybe you should look into it. Yet,
                            > as I said a person does not have to be a member to post at ESA,
                            it's
                            > up to Prometheus to deside if it gets posted, then the person is
                            > usually invited to join.
                            >
                            > If someone is not paying attention to what email addy they are
                            > attempting to use, (for what ever reason, maybe confussion or
                            > frustration, or ?) well that isn't the moderators fault!
                            >
                            > Just thought I would clarify that with those that are bothering to
                            > keep up with this rediculous Censorship post. LOL
                            >
                            > This really is very easy to prove if one is willing to check!
                            >
                            > Liz
                            >
                            > PS/ Not sure if Mish posted this URL link here on ET, haven't read
                            > the messages here in ages!
                            >
                            > So sharing this very interesting link:
                            >
                            >
                            > "The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict
                            themselves.
                            > They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without stopping
                            > to take a breath. . . . They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to
                            > you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to
                            > yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying,
                            making
                            > stuff up, or are crazy."
                            >
                            > In short, a narcissist can confuse you and it
                            > appears that this is exactly what scam artists do.
                            >
                            > http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Not so fast, Liz. I've checked into my Yahoo groups account,
                            which
                            > > lists the groups I am a member of on Yahoo. The two other ex-
                            > eckankar
                            > > groups are still there, but the ESA group has been deleted.
                            > >
                            > > This, of course, was done by Prometheus when he deleted my
                            > > membership. I'd thought moderated status was different than
                            > complete
                            > > deletion of membership.
                            > >
                            > > In any case, I have NO membership with ESA to edit, so there are
                            > > obviously no membership choices for me to select or deselect.
                            > >
                            > > So, since my usual email address was banned by him, Yahoo groups
                            > > apparently automatically reverted to my alternate email address
                            > which
                            > > is still stored in yahoo groups. It seems to be a quirk in yahoo
                            > > group programming. There is no way for me to change that other
                            than
                            > > re-establishing membership in ESA (sorry, no thanks), or deleting
                            > > from my general yahoo account the alternate address, which I may
                            do.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus has as much stated the same thing over at ESA. I
                            accept
                            > > this explanation, and that it was not deliberate on the part of
                            > > Prometheus. Of course, Prometheus' act of completely
                            > banning/deleting
                            > > the email address set these events in motion, but I can see that
                            he
                            > > could not have known this would happen. When I last I to ESA, I
                            did
                            > > not notice the automatic reversion back to the other email
                            address.
                            > >
                            > > Fair enough for you, Liz?
                            > >
                            > > On this forum, I am so far NOT banned. So here, when you make a
                            > > statement, you get an answer.
                            > >
                            > > On your group, you have control of the bully pulpit, so you can
                            > make
                            > > any statement you want with inpunity.
                            > >
                            > > No one will answer you if you decide you don't like the answer.
                            > >
                            > > This is called censureship when you have complete control of what
                            > > gets posted, and can decide how you want to manipulate the
                            > > discussion.
                            > >
                            > > So I won't be posting on your group. You've become tyrannical in
                            > your
                            > > style of managing the group.
                            > >
                            > > Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
                            > >
                            > > Leaf
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth" <ewickings@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a
                            > > > moderator edited or switched a poster's email or address once
                            it
                            > > gets
                            > > > approved, all one has to do is look at the post in question, to
                            > the
                            > > > right and below the date it will say: "Show message option".
                            If
                            > > you
                            > > > click the tiny arrow it will expand the area to show: "View
                            > > > Source", "Use Fixed Width Font", or "Unwrap Lines". Click
                            the
                            > > one
                            > > > that says "Show message". It will then open up the post at the
                            > > left
                            > > > of the page, and before the actual message it will show who it
                            is
                            > > > from, return path, Received.... Etc which for most people is
                            hard
                            > > to
                            > > > read let alone understand if you have no clue what you are
                            > looking
                            > > > for. Down toward the bottom of all that strange stuff you will
                            > see
                            > > > From, Subject, X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public or it might say
                            > member,
                            > > if
                            > > > it says public, it means the person sending a post is not a
                            > member
                            > > of
                            > > > the group. The last line will show: X-eGroups-Approved-By:
                            > either
                            > > > Prometheus or myself over on ESA. It will also show if
                            anything
                            > > was
                            > > > edited, and by which moderator. This pertains to the message
                            > > posted
                            > > > on ESA Re: Group FYI
                            > > >
                            > > > If this explaination is too difficult for anyone to understand,
                            > > then
                            > > > I guess the point is not worth explaining further... This is
                            not
                            > > too
                            > > > difficult to prove to yourselves. It is impossible to remove
                            or
                            > > > change a person's message without it showing this within
                            > the "Show
                            > > > Message Option" as I referrenced. Of course one way to
                            > accomplish
                            > > > doing any editing and posting, would be to forward one of these
                            > > > moderated posts from the original message, and post it yourself
                            > as
                            > > a
                            > > > moderator. Which in this case in question, was not how it
                            > happened
                            > > > on ESA!
                            > > >
                            > > > Hope everyone has an enjoyable July 4th Holiday week/end.
                            > > > Liz
                            > > >
                            > > > Leaf wrote:
                            > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Well, for what its worth...here's another update, and some
                            > > > > thoughts for Marla, if she's reading this.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I logged into my Yahoo groups account, and I see that with
                            all
                            > my
                            > > > > yahoo groups that I hold memberships with, ESA has been
                            > > > > changed to my alternate email address that is stored in my
                            > > > > Yahoo file. The other two groups still have my usual email
                            > > > > address.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Now, I did NOT change this. That is a cold, hard fact. I
                            > haven't
                            > > > > logged into Yahoo accounts in ages.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I figure that when I was placed on moderated status by the
                            > > > > moderators at ESA, they somehow switched me to the alternate
                            > > > > email address that is on file in my account.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This may have been deliberate or not. I can't say.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > So now, unless this is changed, I am forced to use an email
                            > > > > address I'd rather not use, if I ever post there.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This is getting stranger by the day.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Well, I just have to laugh....not at anyone or with malice,
                            > just
                            > > > > laugh....
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I'm okay with all this, at peace with myself.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Its been one crazy and wild adventure!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I may post a wrap-up of all this, and some final thoughts,
                            when
                            > I
                            > > > > have time. Then I may retreat back into my peronsal life,
                            > > > > although I'll probably check back in once in a while.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > For now, I'd like to say to Marla one thing, if she's reading
                            > > here:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I left eckankar about ten years ago, after joining when I was
                            > > > > about sixteen years old, and have been reading the eckankar
                            > > > > sites for quite some time, off and on. I've seen some strange
                            > > > > and wacky things come and go that have been posted.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > There was nothing at all controversial with your posts,
                            nothing
                            > > > > even slightly unusual or inappropriate compared to what has
                            > > > > always been posted over the years on these forums.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > In fact, your posts, I'd say, were fairly usual and normal.
                            > This
                            > > is
                            > > > > why it is so puzzling that you were singled out for such a
                            > tongue
                            > > > > lashing. It makes no sense to me, with all that I've seen
                            over
                            > > the
                            > > > > years.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I'm sorry (oops, not supposed to say 'sorry' in eckankar, I
                            > just
                            > > > > can't seem to follow the little rules anymore--hee, hee) you
                            > > were
                            > > > > put through such an ordeal in your contact with these
                            > > > > ex-eckankar groups. You deserved to be respected and to be
                            > > > > treated with dignity. That didn't happen. You seem like a
                            very
                            > > > > good, decent and smart person to me. You've handled it all
                            > with
                            > > > > poise.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > You'll be fine, I'm sure.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Although I'm not the moderator here, I think its safe to say
                            > you
                            > > > > should feel free to post at this forum, if you liike. There
                            > have
                            > > > been
                            > > > > a great many decent and good people post here over the years.
                            > > > > You're welcome here, although I wouldn't blame you if you
                            leave
                            > > > > any thought of eckankar behind and never look back.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Funny, that's what these forums were supposed to be all about.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > More later.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Leaf
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                            > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > There is only one way that my email address that Yahoo
                            > > > > groups uses
                            > > > > > can be changed: I have to physically log into Yahoo groups
                            > with
                            > > > > my
                            > > > > > password and deliberately elect to change to another email
                            > > > > address. I
                            > > > > > always post at the Yahoo site, not from my email program.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The name change only took effect on YOUR site, and not here
                            > > > > on
                            > > > > > Eckankartruth, which is also a Yahoo group. If I'd made a
                            > > > > change, the
                            > > > > > new address would have shown up here, as well. As anyone
                            > > > > can see, it
                            > > > > > didn't.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Let's see with this new post how my name shows up. If my
                            real
                            > > > > name is
                            > > > > > displayed, I apologize in advance with all due sincerity.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > If my usual "leafeater/tianyue" addy shows up here but not
                            on
                            > > > > your
                            > > > > > site, then someone at your end changed it, period. Case
                            > > > > closed.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Maybe one of your other moderators did it, or maybe you did
                            > it
                            > > > > by
                            > > > > > mistake. If it wasn't deliberate, perhaps someone familiar
                            > with
                            > > > > yahoo
                            > > > > > groups moderation can explain how it could possibly be an
                            > > > > error. If
                            > > > > > it is an error on your part, I apologize.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Leaf
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                            > > > > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Leaf,
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I approved your post as you sent it. I didn't change
                            > anything
                            > > > > > > to reveal your name. You did it, not me! Seems like I'm
                            > > > > damned
                            > > > > > > if I do and damned if I don't. I don't know what to do
                            for
                            > you
                            > > > > > > at this point really. I can't appease you in anything I
                            try
                            > > to
                            > > > do.
                            > > > > > > Tell you what, just post on the other sites. People will
                            > read
                            > > it
                            > > > > > > there. All this cross posting isn't necessary anyway. But
                            > > > > please
                            > > > > > > stop blaming ESA for everything that doesn't seem right
                            to
                            > > > > you.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Prometheus
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater"
                            > > > > > > <tianyue@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Update on the events at ESA:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I notice a strange new develeopment. They posted my new
                            > > > > post (I
                            > > > > > > > thjank them for that), but switched to my other email
                            > > > > address
                            > > > > > which
                            > > > > > > > reveals my actual name.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > <snipped for redundancy reasons! by Liz ;-)>
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Elizabeth
                            ... license. Amateur pop psychologists (i.e., people like you) will usually end up making complete fools of themselves. *** Actually my major is in Law,
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 4 11:08 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "tomleafeater" <tianyue@...>
                              wrote:

                              > That's why there are laws about practicing medicine without a
                              license. Amateur pop psychologists (i.e., people like you) will
                              usually end up making complete fools of themselves.


                              *** Actually my major is in Law, graduating in August Finally and
                              with a 98.9 gpa! :-)



                              > I remember that there was another fellow posting here that, as I
                              recall, you thought was a narcissist. It seems the narcissist label
                              is one of your favorite diagnoses of people you disagree with.
                              Furthermore, the signs of narcissism you posted, ironically, really
                              do sound a lot like YOU. Perhaps that is why *that* particular
                              condition seems to continually attract your interest? Just a thought,
                              Maestra.


                              *** Actually Leaf, this is the very first time I have posted anything
                              about this subject, that I can recall? If I did it was a couple years
                              ago, and honestly I doubt I did post anything on this subject unless
                              you are referring to Ford Johnson / Graham, and the whole eckankrap
                              BS that came about because of Ford's book?

                              You just may have me confused with someone else, since this subject
                              has been tossed around lately over on ESA. Though I am contemplating
                              a second major in psychology? Never too late to further your
                              education right?! ;-)



                              > Again, dear one,

                              *** Sorry I don't buy into the eckankrap lingo anymore. I'm not a
                              student following a sage, Master or Guru. Though my dear husband
                              does call me Honey or Dear, and a term of endearment. So, I didn't
                              know you cared Leaf? ;-) (JK!)


                              > when you post here, you are likely to get an answer
                              > you might not enjoy. Can't ban me here...


                              *** Sorry Leaf, you were never banned by me. I do enjoy your
                              answers, comments, past posts, just don't always agree with you. If I
                              felt it necessary I could sit here and communicate in an attempt to
                              impress... not my style, I would rather be real, than superior.
                              Probably one reason why I could not remain an HI after 30 years of
                              ego ladened personalities within the HI circle, nor could I go along
                              with the lies about initiations, fake masters, history etc! You know
                              what I mean...



                              > A few other points regarding your post:
                              LIZ WROTE(see below for entire context):
                              You wrote: "So, since my usual email address was banned by him,
                              Yahoo groups apparently automatically reverted to my alternate email
                              address which is still stored in yahoo groups."


                              *** Actually you wrote that.


                              > Well that could be the case, so maybe you should look into it.

                              > LIZ ALSO WROTE:

                              > If someone is not paying attention to what email addy they are
                              attempting to use, (for what ever reason, maybe confusion or
                              frustration, or ?) well that isn't the moderators fault!


                              *** Yep I did write that. :-)


                              > LEAF REPLIES:

                              > In the future, please completely read my post before replying to
                              it. Its clear you didn't comprehend my post.
                              First, regarding your suggestion that I look into what I've said
                              occurred with Yahoo groups when Prometheus banned me from ESA:
                              You must have missed the part in my post in which I explained that I
                              already *DID* look into Yahoo groups. That's how I concluded it was
                              Yahoo groups program that automatically reverted back to my alternate
                              email address.

                              > Second, since I didn't change the email address, there was no
                              reason for me to have known that it had been changed automatically by
                              Yahoo, so therefore I didn't notice the change, my dear.

                              The reason the change occurred automatically is because my usual
                              email address was banned by Prometheus. Since I didn't know he had
                              entirely deleted my membership, there was no reason for me to looking
                              for such changes when I posted.
                              >
                              >
                              > Leaf


                              *** Good I am glad you were able to prove to yourself that it had
                              nothing to do with the ESA moderators as was first implied by you.
                              Whether you want to believe it or not, Prometheus and I also have the
                              same goals as you. So the moral of this story is, if in doubt check
                              it out! ;-) And now others know how to do just that... explanation
                              is posted below:




                              > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth" <ewickings@>
                              > wrote:

                              > > BTW, a person can read from ESA and not be a member, and they
                              still in fact can post a message to the group without having to join!
                              This happens at ESA because that was how Prometheus decided to set
                              the group up. It is "public", and can be read by anyone as I am
                              sure you already knew.

                              People have attempted posting replies to messages there, and even
                              though they are not officially a member, their message obviously
                              gets sent to the "pending file" until a moderator decides to
                              allow "it" access to the group.


                              <snipped>

                              > > FYI, if a person is really all that concerned about whether a
                              moderator edited or switched a poster's email or address once
                              it gets approved, all one has to do is look at the post in question,
                              to the right and below the date it will say: "Show message option".
                              If you click the tiny arrow it will expand the area to show: "View
                              Source", "Use Fixed Width Font", or "Unwrap Lines". Click
                              the one that says "Show message". It will then open up the post at
                              the left of the page, and before the actual message it will show who
                              it is from, return path, Received.... Etc which for most people is
                              hard to read let alone understand if you have no clue what you are
                              looking for. Down toward the bottom of all that strange stuff you
                              will see From, Subject, X-Yahoo-Group-Post: public or it might say
                              member, if it says public, it means the person sending a post is not
                              a member of the group. The last line will show: X-eGroups-Approved-
                              By: either Prometheus or myself over on ESA. It will also show if
                              anything was edited, and by which moderator. This pertains to the
                              message posted on ESA Re: Group FYI if this explanation is too
                              difficult for anyone to understand, then I guess the point is not
                              worth explaining further... This is not too difficult to prove to
                              yourselves. It is impossible to remove or change a person's message
                              without it showing this within the "Show Message Option" as I
                              referenced. Of course one way to accomplish doing any editing and
                              posting, would be to forward one of these moderated posts from the
                              original message, and post it yourself as a moderator. Which in this
                              case in question, was not how it happened on ESA!
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