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here's some truth

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  • Raymond Seymour
    Dear Souls: Kent really kicked ass in his response to my email regarding let s figure out the truth. Well, here is some more. Wandering around this great
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 26, 2006
      Dear Souls:
       
      Kent really kicked ass in his response to my email regarding let's figure out the truth.  Well, here is some more.  Wandering around this great wilderness looking for something that just isn't there.  Wow.  That took me a while, I feel like one of the lucky ones.  How about if a person wasn't really happy before they found Eckankar and now they left Eckankar and still they are off balance as you put it.  Here's the story, maybe Hollywood could help me.  I was very young and in love so deep.  I had a baby boy quickly after we were hitched.  Man he was the greatest thing I ever knew.  My husband was so afraid something would happen to him, but I assured him God would see it through, though I did not think about God except when I needed something.  He said yeah, God is that the same God that took by 17 year old brother?  Anyway, he blamed God I didn't.  Life went on and we grew up, had another baby a girl this time.  Man life is great ain't it.  The boy grew into a young man and won championships and little kids loved him - got a wrestling scholarship and went to a great school.  Then he decided he was sick of life and everything in it and it was a bust, trying to survive just to get old or sick or worse.  So he started seeking help and we were lost as to what next.  Drugs?  We don't know.  Antidepressants yeah that's the key,  go to church and get saved and get some anti depressants.  I hated church it seemed so fake I couldn't go with him, but he liked it.  Then he decided to quit college and live with some friends and drink a lot, try to figure out life forget us.  He got a third shift job so he could party with his friends and me and the old man couldn't do a thing but worry.  Then the big bomb, yep the hospital called at 8:00 on a Saturday morning to tell us the only son we ever had was in a coma and he was sorry for the call.  That was it?  So I said damn I need to go to church because I have been bad or something, God is punishing me?  I still hated it, I hated it all, I tried so hard to go and be good and pray and meet pitiful people like me but it just wasn't going to be.  So one day I opened the paper and said I am going to go to  ... my finger landed on Eckankar - I said whatever and I started to go.  People had had near death experiences and dreams and hope and shit like that!  Man, I started chanting HU and didn't give up.  I had dreams and I believed I soul traveled and I thought if I tried hard enough a man would appear in my room and let me talk to my boy.  Well, that didn't happen.  So I ask you all now what?  Now I have left it all and I still don't have an answer.  What the hell?  It ain't right.  Damn right I am out of balance, four fucking years later and still I don't get it!  I embraced humanity and it is a bitch. 
       
      Sorry if I went on too long  and yes I read your entire email Kent looking for a clue to what next.
       
      KS

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    • Sandra
      ... don t have an answer. What the hell? It ain t right. Damn right I am out of balance, four fucking years later and still I don t get it! I embraced
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 27, 2006
        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Raymond Seymour
        <bkdclove4all@...> wrote:

        > So I ask you all now what? Now I have left it all and I still
        don't have an answer. What the hell? It ain't right. Damn right I
        am out of balance, four fucking years later and still I don't get
        it! I embraced humanity and it is a bitch.
        >
        > Sorry if I went on too long and yes I read your entire email
        Kent looking for a clue to what next.
        >
        > KS
        >


        You have been through a lot of Bull Shit! Thinking that something
        outside of yourself will fix this, like Eckancult was a last ditch
        effort for help? How about seeking the advise of a counselor? It
        sounds like you need more than what any religion is going to fix.

        It also sounds as if you are very bitter and holding much anger (for
        good reason!). If you hadn't specified "your husband" I would have
        assumed you were a man the way you describe your feelings. Not that
        women can't be just as devastated, mind you I have no children so
        can not know the grief! When a person is that tormented, my best
        advise is find a support group or someone that specializes in grief
        and spiritual assistance. Not a Pastor or Religious figure head!

        My two cents worth,
        Sandra
      • Sharon
        Geez, KS, what a story! I feel sort of ashamed of myself for enjoying myself so much and not wanting to deal with ET or anything eck anymore simply because
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 27, 2006
          Geez, KS, what a story! I feel sort of ashamed of myself for enjoying
          myself so much and not wanting to deal with ET or anything "eck"
          anymore simply because it's all sort of a dark shadow in the sunshine
          of my life. Yeah, I'm thinking that sounds corny but it popped out,
          I'm not awake yet.

          Last night I flipped on History Channel - the narrator's voice always
          puts me to sleep. Well, there was some show on about the many
          possibilities for "The End", which might be here soon. All I remember
          right now is Yellowstone blowing up and dumping 8' of ash all over the
          whole country, and asteroids hitting. And I felt so sick inside - if
          anything like that happens, I probably won't be here, but my children
          and grandchildren might be.

          I've been having the most marvelous Christmas with my family. I'm
          still at my daughter's, and my son & his family are still here too.
          Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in the universe who has so
          many joys & blessings, and it's just not fair. I've got friends with
          no children, and friends with stories like yours. Sometimes I feel a
          little guilty when I share my happy Codybear stories, but I hope
          people are sharing my joy and not thinking about their own lives which
          may not be as happy as mine. My daughter's children are 20, 18, and
          16; Codybear's 2 1/2, and his little brother or sister is due the end
          of March. So far, so good - but my daughter & I wonder sometimes how
          long our luck can hold out.

          Your son is dead, but a lot of children just go astray - their lives
          are a living hell, and their families are just sort of waiting for
          that dreaded phone call.

          Just recently one of my favorite cousins died unexpectedly, and it was
          just *horrible* - he was one of the nicest people on earth, with
          everything to live for, and life on earth is a bit darker for everyone
          who knew him, now that he's gone. Well, it turns out that recently
          *another* cousin died too - but no one's really saying anything. She
          was one of those "black sheep" and her parents just try to pretend she
          hasn't existed for the last 40 years or so. We suspect she died of
          Aids.

          KS, I can't begin to imagine what you're going through. Life just
          really sucks sometimes. You know, there are times when I get really
          pissed off at God - maybe it *does* help a bit to blame things on God,
          who knows? But I think that only makes things worse, plus as time
          goes on, I think I believe less and less that God exists. I also like
          to thank God for all the blessings. God comes in handy sometimes for
          just about *everything* - sort of laughing, but would thanking God
          come under "venting" just like bitching & blaming God for the bad
          stuff? Why not? Maybe we just need to "vent", whether what we're
          venting about is "good" or "bad", sometimes are feelings are more than
          we can handle by ourselves.

          For me, what "works" is just believing that shit just happens, but so
          do good things. And there's not really any "reason" for either of them.

          You know, it's sort of ironic, but there's a rather well-known eckist
          here on the internet who experienced something not unlike what you
          did. I knew him online as an eckist, and sort of tangled with him a
          lot after I left. I didn't know for a long time that his
          step-daughter had been in a terrible accident and was in a coma for a
          long time. I don't know if she's still in the coma, or if she died.
          Anyway, at one point I got an email from someone who told me he was
          recruiting at a certain "spiritual" discussion group, and would I mind
          stopping by and kicking some eckbutt? Well, somewhere along the way
          we ended up chatting a bit privately - yeah, public is one thing but
          private's often another thing entirely!! <gg>

          His daughter's accident resulted in the marriage falling apart. His
          wife was an eckist too. And he was an HI, been in it for a looong
          time. Well, I was *really* surprised that "the eck" didn't help them
          with this tragedy at all!! Even though it's all a lie and total
          bullshit, you'd think that at least believing in the lie would help -
          either through some kind of wacko hallucinations ("ecksperiences") or
          just a "knowing" that everything was just as it should be even if it
          doesn't make sense to our human "consciousness". But, this guy wasn't
          in any better shape dealing with the situation than you or many other
          people who experience tragedies.

          Now, I *do* "believe" in the paranormal and stuff like that, and
          figured even if the "religious" part of ekult is a crock, that at
          least some eckists develop some kind of psychic talents and have
          legitimate non-physical experiences. Many members have non-physical
          experiences all their lives, and just have the misfortune to end up in
          ekult and believing there's something "spiritual" about them. Either
          way, I was sort of shocked that this HI's beliefs gave him absolutely
          *no* comfort or help of any kind in dealing with this situation!!

          I mean, you *can* contact the dead...even if they're in a coma and not
          really "dead" yet. It might only be a very subtle contact, not one of
          those stories you read in the eckbooks - most of which arent' that
          believable anyway.

          In "real life", it's been my personal experience and that of many
          other former members (and current members too!) that when it comes
          right down to it, ekult just doesn't deliver *anything* it promises.

          Except maybe for the really over-the-edge "wacko" types - and some
          here at ET know what I'm talking about, those far-out
          space-cases...oh, I just thought of one really good example - Klemp
          Himself, back when he was jumping into that freezing river and
          stripping at the airport, and landed in the looney bin.

          Geez, KS, this is a double tragedy. First you lose your son, and then
          you "lose" ekult, which maybe helped you and gave you some hope for
          awhile. So, now I understand a little more, and thank you so much for
          sharing your story, and your pain. I'm *so* sorry this happened to
          you and your family! I'm hoping that maybe talking about it here
          maybe helped a little bit in some way.

          I agree with Sandra...counseling might help. Something like ekult is
          the *last* thing you need!! Antidepressants might not seemed to have
          helped you much, but often what they do is just "take the edge off"
          while you heal yourself. But ekult just makes things worse, because
          you're not *really* working on your "issues" and problems.

          I'm thinking here, in a way your son is sort of still alive, in the
          love between you and your husband which created him to begin with.
          And I'm sure you've been told many times that you've still got your
          daughter. That might not help much, but really, don't forget about
          her! She's hurting too. She's lost her brother, that loving and
          "safe" family, and her security.

          My cousin's funeral was really rough. Sure, there was lots of "he's
          in a better place" now but this phrase was *really* ridiculous and
          totally meaningless, because he was in a *great* place right here on
          earth!! Especially since his children were just getting out of those
          horrid teen years - oh KS, I am just *so* sorry about your son - yeah,
          kids go thru "stuff", just like many of we did when we were younger.
          I think most of them get thru it all right, thank goodness. He was
          looking forward to retiring soon, and had such great plans. They put
          an "I'd rather be hunting" license place in his coffin, and a little
          bottle of his favorite whiskey in his pocket. And even if he hadn't
          had to go thru a first marriage from hell when he was young, I think
          he & his 2nd wife would *still* have spent every day thanking
          "whatever' for the blessing of their incredibly beautiful love. Yeah,
          they were one of those "magic" couples who just glowed!!

          Let's face it, quite often life is just *not* fair, and it just
          doesn't make any sense. Sure, we can "believe" in this-or-that,
          whatever seems to "work" and make us feel better - but when it comes
          right down to it, none of us *really* "know", and no one can really
          know anything for sure until it's our time to leave earth.

          So, all we can do in the meantime, IMO, is just take things as they
          come, and enjoy the good times and maybe try to sort of blow off the
          bad stuff, and not hold on to them, and depending on the severity,
          just being patient while we work things out and deal with them, and no
          matter *how* bad they are, just don't let it ruin the "good" parts of
          your life.

          I don't think you can ever really "recover" from something like losing
          a child, and not a day will go by that you won't think about it. But
          time will surely dull the pain a bit, and eventually you'll be able to
          to learn to live with it better, and be able to enjoy & appreciate the
          joys as well as the sorrows.

          When I was an eckist, going thru one of those "dark nights", I had the
          thought that maybe without those horrible times when we're in the
          absolute darkest pits, maybe it made more sense because without them,
          we wouldn't be able to enjoy & appreciate the good things in life, and
          our capacity for pain and suffering was always balanced out by the
          opposite. So, if you don't get the "bad" stuff you're not going to
          get the "good" stuff either. That thought helped me deal with things
          a little better, and to just be patient until the pendulum swung back
          the other way again.

          You know, in some ways ekult actually made life *worse*, because I'd
          think that some stuff was "karma" and I deserved it. That's not much
          different than the nonsense about humans suffering because supposedly
          Adam & Eve messed up, you know?

          Well, I guess that's about all I have to say right now, and things are
          getting a bit hectic here & I've got to get off the computer. But
          thank you *so* much for sharing your story. I hope that talking about
          it helped you a little bit, too.

          Take care now!

          Love & Hugs!

          Sharon





          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Raymond Seymour
          <bkdclove4all@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Souls:
          >
          > Kent really kicked ass in his response to my email regarding let's
          figure out the truth. Well, here is some more. Wandering around this
          great wilderness looking for something that just isn't there. Wow.
          That took me a while, I feel like one of the lucky ones. How about if
          a person wasn't really happy before they found Eckankar and now they
          left Eckankar and still they are off balance as you put it. Here's
          the story, maybe Hollywood could help me. I was very young and in
          love so deep. I had a baby boy quickly after we were hitched. Man he
          was the greatest thing I ever knew. My husband was so afraid
          something would happen to him, but I assured him God would see it
          through, though I did not think about God except when I needed
          something. He said yeah, God is that the same God that took by 17
          year old brother? Anyway, he blamed God I didn't. Life went on and
          we grew up, had another baby a girl this time. Man life is great
          ain't it. The boy grew into a young man
          > and won championships and little kids loved him - got a wrestling
          scholarship and went to a great school. Then he decided he was sick
          of life and everything in it and it was a bust, trying to survive just
          to get old or sick or worse. So he started seeking help and we were
          lost as to what next. Drugs? We don't know. Antidepressants yeah
          that's the key, go to church and get saved and get some anti
          depressants. I hated church it seemed so fake I couldn't go with him,
          but he liked it. Then he decided to quit college and live with some
          friends and drink a lot, try to figure out life forget us. He got a
          third shift job so he could party with his friends and me and the old
          man couldn't do a thing but worry. Then the big bomb, yep the
          hospital called at 8:00 on a Saturday morning to tell us the only son
          we ever had was in a coma and he was sorry for the call. That was it?
          So I said damn I need to go to church because I have been bad or
          something, God is punishing me?
          > I still hated it, I hated it all, I tried so hard to go and be good
          and pray and meet pitiful people like me but it just wasn't going to
          be. So one day I opened the paper and said I am going to go to ...
          my finger landed on Eckankar - I said whatever and I started to go.
          People had had near death experiences and dreams and hope and shit
          like that! Man, I started chanting HU and didn't give up. I had
          dreams and I believed I soul traveled and I thought if I tried hard
          enough a man would appear in my room and let me talk to my boy. Well,
          that didn't happen. So I ask you all now what? Now I have left it
          all and I still don't have an answer. What the hell? It ain't right.
          Damn right I am out of balance, four fucking years later and still I
          don't get it! I embraced humanity and it is a bitch.
          >
          > Sorry if I went on too long and yes I read your entire email Kent
          looking for a clue to what next.
          >
          > KS
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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        • tomleafeater
          ... let s figure out the truth. Well, here is some more. Wandering around this great wilderness looking for something that just isn t there. Wow. That took
          Message 4 of 4 , Dec 27, 2006
            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Raymond Seymour
            <bkdclove4all@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Souls:
            >
            > Kent really kicked ass in his response to my email regarding
            let's figure out the truth. Well, here is some more. Wandering
            around this great wilderness looking for something that just isn't
            there. Wow. That took me a while, I feel like one of the lucky
            ones. How about if a person wasn't really happy before they found
            Eckankar and now they left Eckankar and still they are off balance as
            you put it. Here's the story, maybe Hollywood could help me. I was
            very young and in love so deep. I had a baby boy quickly after we
            were hitched. Man he was the greatest thing I ever knew. My husband
            was so afraid something would happen to him, but I assured him God
            would see it through, though I did not think about God except when I
            needed something. He said yeah, God is that the same God that took
            by 17 year old brother? Anyway, he blamed God I didn't. Life went
            on and we grew up, had another baby a girl this time. Man life is
            great ain't it. The boy grew into a young man
            > and won championships and little kids loved him - got a wrestling
            scholarship and went to a great school. Then he decided he was sick
            of life and everything in it and it was a bust, trying to survive
            just to get old or sick or worse. So he started seeking help and we
            were lost as to what next. Drugs? We don't know. Antidepressants
            yeah that's the key, go to church and get saved and get some anti
            depressants. I hated church it seemed so fake I couldn't go with
            him, but he liked it. Then he decided to quit college and live with
            some friends and drink a lot, try to figure out life forget us. He
            got a third shift job so he could party with his friends and me and
            the old man couldn't do a thing but worry. Then the big bomb, yep
            the hospital called at 8:00 on a Saturday morning to tell us the only
            son we ever had was in a coma and he was sorry for the call. That
            was it? So I said damn I need to go to church because I have been
            bad or something, God is punishing me?
            > I still hated it, I hated it all, I tried so hard to go and be
            good and pray and meet pitiful people like me but it just wasn't
            going to be. So one day I opened the paper and said I am going to go
            to ... my finger landed on Eckankar - I said whatever and I started
            to go. People had had near death experiences and dreams and hope and
            shit like that! Man, I started chanting HU and didn't give up. I
            had dreams and I believed I soul traveled and I thought if I tried
            hard enough a man would appear in my room and let me talk to my boy.
            Well, that didn't happen. So I ask you all now what? Now I have
            left it all and I still don't have an answer. What the hell? It
            ain't right. Damn right I am out of balance, four fucking years
            later and still I don't get it! I embraced humanity and it is a
            bitch.
            >
            > Sorry if I went on too long and yes I read your entire email
            Kent looking for a clue to what next.
            >
            > KS
            >


            Hi KS,

            Oh my god...now I understand your earlier post much better.


            I knew a seventh initiate (let's call her A.H.) in eckankar who lived
            in my home state of California. She was in eckankar from the
            beginning, knew Paul Twitchell personally (lived in the same area he
            had lived in), and was a wonderful person. In the California area,
            she was well known and well liked.

            One day her husband and her two children were driving down the street
            and suffered a tragic accident. They were instantly killed. It was a
            stunning occurrence to eckists who knew A.H. Everyone wondered why
            would this happen to such an "advanced soul"? Why would the Mahanta
            allow this to happen to her?

            Having been away from California at the time, I heard the news about
            the accident from eighth initiate Patti Simson Rivinas when I ran
            into her at a seminar (she's the one who wrote the eck book, "Hello
            Friend", and who was an icon in eckankar from the start) . Lest I
            were to have presumed to judge our mutual friend for not being
            sufficiently detached, Patti gave me a funny look and said, "Look, if
            you can get through that, you can get through anything." She said
            that A.H. would eventually be ready to return to active duties in
            eckankar, since it had been more than a year since the accident. She
            was still recovering emotionally from the shock.

            Oddly, the first thing most eckists do think when they hear such talk
            about death is to make some silly comment that there is no death and
            why cry over the dead, just detach yourself, etc., etc. There is
            nothing worse than hearing someone say, "its meant to be" in such
            circumstances, or "its a learning experience." Sometimes things just
            hurt.

            But clearly, these kind of things can happen to anyone, no matter how
            evolved they presume themselves to be, and when it happens, most
            people are understandably devastated. And I have noticed that parents
            who lose children are particularly affected by the loss of them. I've
            not ever seen people grieve more than when they have lost a child.
            There seems to be nothing worse.

            My heart goes out to you. This must be hard for you.

            There really is no consoling a person who has experienced this
            except, perhaps, the healing effect of time. So I won't pretend to
            have any astounding answers for you. I can't think of any. What you
            have experienced is just plain painful, period. Pain like that will
            become another part of the fabric of your life.

            As I see it, the Internet forums like EckankarTruth can have a
            helpful role for those who were members of eckankar, who, like so
            many, go through periods of questioning and wondering about life, and
            who can benefit from sharing with other like-minded people their
            experiences.

            Does any one, sole person really have all the answers to life's
            mysteries? Doesn't it really seem that the more people brag
            about "knowing it all" the less they are apt to know?

            Notice how smug and certain so many eckists are, and then look at
            their real lives. Rarely are they coping any better than the rest of
            us, despite their firm belief that they're somehow better off.

            An interest of mine is the ancient Taoist philosophy. In this way of
            seeing the world, things in life are always transforming into
            something else, in an ongoing ever-changing turning of the seasons.
            Things happen because they happen. It is the nature of that which is
            born to eventually die. The Taoists would not assign a cause, such as
            karma, but would see events as the natural occurrences that happen
            because they happen, all as part of the inexorable changing of the
            seasons of life. Day gradually turns to night, and night to day. The
            wheel of life keeps turning. No one can stop it.

            They might say, if you're sad, go ahead and be sad, until you're not
            sad anymore. Go with the flow. Allow yourself breathing room to
            grieve. The things that occur are not always some one's fault, in the
            sense of blame. Taoists try to see the natural flow of the grain of
            a situation, much like the grain in a piece of wood, and try to find
            a way to ease through a difficult situation by going with the natural
            flow of the grain.

            Taoists study the natural world in order to make sense out of life.
            Some Taoists jokingly like to say "shit happens." In other words, it
            isn't some god up there purposefully pulling strings, its just life.
            Shit happens. (I notice Sharon said this in her post--and its true!)
            And good things happen too. Its part of that inescapable balance, the
            turning of the tides. Just when things seem like they can't get any
            worse, things can turn the other way, and get better.

            And sometimes life is unspeakably tragic, in real human terms. To say
            otherwise is callous.

            I'm sorry this happened to you. It is truly awful.

            You have suffered a shock to your system. In the experience and
            observations of those who practice Eastern medical systems (as I do)
            it is thought that often both body and emotions are mutually affected
            by such a powerful shock. In other words, one's entire system can be
            affected. Sometimes seeking help in some way can help your body and
            emotions heal and find balance again. There are various forms of
            therapy you could try.

            I remember Klemp once berating High Initiates for seeking counseling,
            saying that they should have outgrown the need by the time they get
            the fifth initiation. What utter nonsense, and how destructive such
            comments are, as if seeking to alleviate to some degree the
            suffering is a weakness. It is really a strength to be able to ask
            for help.

            Talking to a well trained therapist can help the healing process.
            Also, there are mind-body approaches that are wonderful. One that is
            getting a great deal of attention and is more and more proven by
            modern research is acupuncture. Acupuncture can help restore the
            emotional balance to a person who has experienced a great shock, and
            is excellent, and even better when combined with talk therapy.

            Anti-depressants have been, more and more, receiving a great deal of
            bad press lately, because they can induce, on rare occasions, some
            persons to become suicidal or even homicidal, although they may be
            helpful. Fortunately there are natural antidepressants that may be a
            better choice for some people. One in particular that I like to start
            people on is relatively high amounts of omega 3 fatty acids, which is
            particularly well tolerated by most individuals. It is an essential
            nutrient, and is a natural antidepressant.

            There are also very sophisticated herbal medicinals that can help.
            You might consider seeking out an herbalist trained in Chinese
            medicine. Such herbalists, if they are NCCAOM board certified
            herbalists (which requires many years of rigorous training), can be
            very helpful in such situations.

            And also, one of the best things is getting outside and walking, such
            as walking through the woods or a nature reserve.

            Seeking such therapies is one way to find that balance I was
            referring to.

            More could be said about all this. Got to go....hang in there.

            Kent











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