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  • Sharon
    ... And this was posted twice, so I deleted one! Excuse the delay in response...I ve been busy enjoying summer! For clarity, I will respond between previous
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 6, 2001
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      --- In eckankartruth@y..., Randy Cable <ran1100@y...> wrote:

      > I have responded with parenthasis-Randy

      And this was posted twice, so I deleted one!

      Excuse the delay in response...I've been busy enjoying summer!

      For clarity, I will respond between previous comments & probably not delete any of them.

      > --- Sharon <brighttigress@y...> wrote:
      > > --- In eckankartruth@y..., Randy Cable
      > > <ran1100@y...> wrote:
      > > > Greetings Colleen!
      > > > I had a Christian mystic tell me about
      > > brotherhoods
      > > > and "rods of power".
      > >
      > > Did he/she tell you they were a crock?(I honestly
      > beleive she was talking about legit paths. If you
      > recall P.T. did build his con on other information,
      > remember)
      > >
      > > Because I had an experience
      > > > (OOBE)once when I witnessed the eck rod of power
      > > shift
      > > > from H.Klemp to a new Master "in waiting" so to
      > > speak.
      > >
      > > Fer crissakes, Randy...Klemp was NEVER a "master" of
      > > any kind...except perhaps a master of self-delusion!

      > (What of the impersonal nature of Spirit? What of
      > those who do not know and yet despite eckankar they
      > become aware of what is here, now? I was raised a
      > christian and "knew" seperation was the normal beleif
      > in christianity and was true for me. Do you not assume
      > that Spirit will become active with another and not
      > spite that person just because an outer path may be
      > false?)
      > >

      Randy, I don't believe that Spirit is impersonal in nature.

      To me, Spirit is the most incredibly & intensely personal
      & intimate experience I've ever had!

      I don't quite understand what you mean about separation being
      the normal belief in Christianity. On the contrary, what I get from Christian teachings is that all are "one" with God/Spirit in christ (which is both the person of Christ as well as the "consciousness" of Christ, and there is no separation there, because they are *one*)

      I don't really assume much of anything. I know there are sincere people in the cult, who may indeed have a "connection" with true Spirit and not the pseudo-eckvariety of it. And I certainly don't think that God/Spirit holds anything against anyone because of their "outer" beliefs. Nor does God/Spirit *favor* anyone because of their beliefs, or non-beliefs. I don't think God/Spirit "judges" at all. I think God/Spirit *does* reveal the "truth" to us, but not necessarily here on earth.

      > > > As a matter of fact I had a similar experience
      > > some time after that and witnessed the same event.
      > > > But the eck rod of power was not noticable with
      > > Klemp, yet when the shaft of light transfered from Klemp
      > > it increased with a bit of dim light and then
      > > transfered to the new guy and increased to a real bright
      > > glow.The second time the event happened this new master
      > > > must be doing something right because it not only
      > > > increased in light but also filled the valley we
      > > were standing in to a large area about us.
      > >
      > > You're a (recidivist?) cult member waiting to happen,

      >(What does it mean,recidivist?)

      Recidivist means backsliding into bad habits, and generally is
      used to refer to criminals who get out of jail but return to
      their old criminal habits.

      > > BTW...I say this affectionately!!( I remember a song
      > that went something like..."cruel to be kind" ya know,
      > tuff love and that sort of thing..affectionately? me
      > too!)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > My experience was that the increase of light
      > > caused an auric type presence to shine 'round about us. Each
      > > of us stood about 20 feet from the two guys but yet
      > > we could simply attune to the auric presence around
      > > us and percieve to some degree what the new guy was
      > > > experiencing. He could view all planes of God at
      > > once or focus on any one particular plane or any one
      > > event or one person on this planet if need be.
      > > Information about anything was available.
      > >
      > > Randy, wake up fer crissakes!!!!!!

      > >(Nueralsurfer
      > >could be right about the brain nuerons firing or some
      > >such explaination. Sant Mat groups caution about the
      > >potential for imaginative abuse)
      > >

      *Everything* we're aware of comes from/through the brain, Randy.

      > > You'd be much better of taking LSD!!! It's more
      > > honest!!!!

      (Dr.Weil swears by the good stuff and only
      > one time use only.)

      That's interesting...by the way, I'm trying to track down:

      - "LSD - My Problem Child" by Albert Hofmann who gives a
      detailed account of the history of his discovery of LSD-25
      as well as connections to other psychedelics and mystical

      This is recommended by Gunnar Reitel.

      Personally, I wouldn't touch the stuff. Too many horror stories
      about people jumping from windows when I was a kid, plus a girl in
      school had flashbacks of long lines of marching ducks. <ggg> I've
      seen many people take the stuff as an adult, but excuse me...I don't
      see the sense of seeing weird colors & melting walls. And I've heard they use rat poison today. No thanks!

      In fact, before the cult when I first started having 'experiences' I
      was telling a friend who knew about such things, and he said it sounded like someone was slipping me acid...I considered the possibility, but knew it wasn't possible.

      > >
      > > (Well, it could be true, Sharon, but at least I
      > hallucinated without the expense of LSD. But if I did
      > not hallucinate....Oh well....*S*)
      > >

      Well...it may not have necessarily been hallucinations. Could
      have been your brain producing the images in response to your
      own thoughts or something.

      What gets stick is discovering the *meaning* (if any) of these
      things. The cult taught us to interpret these things in a way
      that favored the cult, of course. And I guess when you get out,
      you can take sort of an "opposite" viewpoint.

      > > > My inner experiences had made it damn hard for me
      > > to leave eckankar. While I am not a member of any
      > > order, but I did experience these two events in my
      > > spiritual life. The only thing I can figure out is that the
      > > new guy, for whatever reason invited me, or the
      > > experience
      > > > happened by the grace of God.
      > >

      Could've been those darn pesky aliens, too! <ggg

      Have you considered the possibility that the "new guy" was...*you*?

      > > Please don't fulfill the old saying "Once a sucker,
      > > always a sucker!"( I could use a lollipop about
      > now..LOL)
      > >

      Gee, I don't remember writing the "sucker" line! It doesn't
      exactly sound like me...not a word I use, really. Oh, well...

      > > > Some people are fortunate, I suppose, to have left
      > > > eckankar after only experiencing the so called
      > > outer stuff.
      > >
      > >
      > > Humbly presumptive, aren't you?

      >(I do know that some
      > have left without any "inner experiences"(OOBEs) maybe
      > the breaking away is easier)

      Well...I guess since I had my "experiences" before the cult, and I fell for the "ecksplanations" and that's how I got conned into joining, not to mention all that other stuff about always having been with the master whether I knew it or not, etc., well...I guess I always assumed that *everyone* had experiences.

      But I think I understand...heck, I suppose people joined by seeing an ad on TV or in the TV Guide, and fell for the promises, and also the crap about it's happening "on the inner" whether you know it or not, and also the things Klemp says about not worrying if you don't have the inner experiences, and other nonsense.

      > >
      > >
      > > >But what about folks like me?
      > >
      > >
      > > As I said, a recidivist cult member waiting to
      > > happen.
      > >
      > > Hey Alf...Randy needs a little "bitchslapping"
      > > here!!!(Randy exposes left cheek, er face that
      > is)LOL
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > To have dialogue
      > > > from Masters with such scope of information I know
      > > did not come from my subconscious. My inner
      > > experiences
      > > > left me wanting to stay with the cult, regardless.
      > >
      > >
      > > I'm sure.
      > >

      And, I'd like to add...how do you *know* they didn't come from your

      > > Randy...consider this. Either you were
      > > hallucinating, or...you had a close encounter of the
      > > pesky alien kind.( I may have )
      > >
      > > I had some "inner" experiences. I'd say they were
      > > definitely precognitive, but I was too dumb &
      > > eckanfogged at the time to see them for what they
      > > were.
      > >
      > > Klemp...shoving me into a dark room with no windows.
      > >
      > > Twitch...a perverted sicko child molester, taking
      > > off with my son after kicking me out of the car...in
      > > front of the police station.
      > > ( I never had anything but uplifting experiences
      > with my conscious OOBEs, or dream journeys with the
      > so-called Vairagi. I suppose that maybe you,Sharon,
      > "seen" the corrupt organization long before you
      > recognized such consciously. Your disillusionment
      > may've happened subconsiously first and then filtered
      > to your conscious mind)
      > >
      > > And...leading that sick twisted parade in a dark,
      > > damp, smelly
      > > alley.(Never happened to me, ever) Within my dream
      > journeys, I recall seminars similar to those on this
      > planet, good eckists in classrooms. But I know that
      > many of my dream journeys were the result of
      > "suggestions" within a current discourse I just read.)
      > >
      > >
      > > > But when I decided to leave, I first thought that
      > > as a master Paul just screwed up badly, made terrible
      > > > mistakes.
      > >

      And I'd like to add here, Randy, that you're not alone. I am always surprised at how people dropped out under Gross or Klemp and *still*
      think the Twitchster was some kind of "master"!! Fer crissakes, during my whole time in the cult I had serious reservations about him, and struggled with that, even talked about it with a few HIs!

      Now, looking back on all the garbage he wrote, I can see it was just my good sense kicking in about him.

      > >
      > > Randy, Twitch accomplished *exactly* what he wanted
      > > to!!!
      > >
      > > He started a cult. People fell for it. He got
      > > bucks, babes, and
      > > worship.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >In the realm of possibilities this could
      > > > happen, just consider religious history when the
      > > great
      > > > Ones made grievous errors.
      > >
      > >
      > > Great Ones? Excuse me???

      (King David, Solomon, Simon
      > Peter..etc. Not to place any lem on their level, but
      > Great Ones have fallen, but have repented and
      > corrected their wrongs. My sentence reffers to my
      > earlier doubts before leaving the cult. I am just
      > sharing some of the thoughts I had in those early days
      > before leaving the cult)
      > >

      Oh...I came back to this just now, wrote the stuff below a few hours ago. Anyway...It sounds here like you're thinking of the eckscuse
      about Darwin being a "Great One" who fell. Darwin doesn't think he

      Twitch never thought he fell. The Cult & Harold don't think he fell.
      They're barely admitting he plagiarized...they're still rationalizing
      and excusing it, and hyping him as "great" except of course the "consciousness" was lower then...oh, geez, it's *such* a bunch of
      crap, really!!

      > > Hey...many similarities between Torquemada and your
      > > typical
      > > eckthug (working under the direction of Klemp,
      > > Skelsky, Kunin, et al)
      > > but I certainly wouldn't call them "great ones"!

      > (Iwould not either. Maybe I should never write again,
      > simply because of my inability to compeletely explian
      > my thoughts on any given subject, or maybe I should
      > write rough drafts until I am clear on my points,
      > please forgive my lack of clarification.)
      > >

      No, you were clear, I just responded to it in my own way.

      There's a difference between genuine "great ones" such as you mention
      (Solomon, David, Peter) ... did *any* of them claim they were "great"?
      Did any of them hype themselves the way the cult hypes not only the LEMs, but the HIs???? They were human. They shared of themselves openly & honestly, both their normal human failings and any wisdom & beliefs they had.

      Fer crissakes, don't apologize!!!! Lighten up!!! We're just having a friendly chat here... don't you have sort of laughing conversations with friends, lively discussions where you just say "Hey, I think you're being a jerk for believing that!"? And your friend responds
      the same way, and you both laugh about it...

      > >
      > >
      > > In each situation the men,
      > > > individually, trusted their own limitations.
      > > > Anyway, if all I have is my conscious OOBE as
      > > proof,
      > > > then I know what a rod of power is and what it is
      > > > about.
      > >
      > > What's this "rod of power" bullshit?

      >( I can deny the
      > cult and its grievous ways, but I trust that Spirit
      > will work with any Soul despite an outer path's ways)

      I agree with you here! If we *let* Spirit work with us, but that's
      not possible when the cult is telling us what to believe, how to
      interpret things, and filling our heads with garbage so that although
      Spirit can be trying to tell us something, we have shut of our rational minds and replaced it with the programmed cult mind, which blocks out the true Spirit within us.

      At least, that's *my* experience!

      You think Spirit needs a "rod of power"? It's bullshit, Randy.

      A bunch of silly deluded beings wearing funny outfits & stuff.

      > Despite eckankar I know Spirit has assumed the
      > tapestry of my inner experiences. I know OOBEs happen
      > even long before Twit came along.

      Yep, and Twitch took advantage of that fact for his own

      > I honestly beleive
      > that Spirit is so desirous of an intimate conscious
      > relationship with any Soul that despite any outer
      > path, Spirit will do for that Soul what is best for
      > that Soul.

      I don't think Spirit desires anything...Spirit already *has* an intimate conscious relationship with us, although perhaps we're
      not totally conscious of it. <ggg>

      I do *not* think that Spirit necessarily does anything for us.
      I think things just happen, and what we do with them is up to us.

      >I still believe in God's unconditional Love
      > and God will not with wrath punish an unsuspecting
      > follower of any religion that has Spirit as its focus.

      God doesn't punish, exactly. Okay...now think a bit about fanatic
      Muslims who bomb things, and <ggg> the eckthugs. I think one day
      they wake up & see things clearly (especially themselves & what they've done) and say....oh, shit...I *really* screwed up!!! And they probably feel pretty crappy, because they'll feel the pain they've
      caused. That's where God kicks in, and hands out the unconditional
      divine love.

      Sort of like childbirth...you forget the pain & just have the baby.

      <giggle> Then the next time you give birth and it gets rough, you
      think...geez, I don't believe I forgot how awful it was!!!

      > If I were to even assume that God could be so damn
      > hateful to any Soul in this way, then I would return
      > to being a self-righteous fundamentalist christain and
      > buy the bulk of the bullshit that Catholicism tries to
      > project on other people's minds.

      I found much more pure spiritual truth & beauty in Catholicism than
      in e-kult. In spite of believing (sort of) the rantings of cults like the JWs & eckankar about it.

      You get wackos anywhere, Randy. And fundies. I guess I've just
      known more "nice" ones.

      You know, I rejected the JWs because of Jehovah's hatefullness, although I "believed". I said, Go ahead, Jehovah...kill me!!! And
      I went on my merry way.

      >We were duped during
      > many incarnations by nearly every religion in this
      > world,

      Try to see the good in other religions, Randy.

      There's incredible beauty in all of them.

      Did it ever occur to you that you're expressing another eckanlie here?

      What if we thoroughly & totally benefitted from our associations with these other religions in countless incarnations, and only grew more & more in our love for God/Spirit through them? And in *this* incarnation, in order to experience the lie & deception, Spirit put us in a lying deceptive CULT with a FALSE "God" just to show us the difference?

      Haven't you wondered how all these other false religions that are nothing but social organizations into power & control & deception by the "priestcraft" produced so many spiritual greats, who expressed in *original* writing their spiritual discoveries?

      The cult claims it all, says it's all their copyrighted cultword.

      How come such pitiful miserable lying paths produced all those "greats", Randy?

      How come these so-called "dead" religions with none of the cult's much-hyped "light and sound" do so much good in the world?

      What has ECKANKULT done?

      Oh...a thought. I'd say that those "greats" like David & Solomon, well...they sort of had them thar darn pesky "power flows", didn't
      they? <ggg> Did *they* dump Wife #1 & say she just couldn't "handle it" although they, on the inner, supposedly were in charge of the whole universe & weather & also for balancing the chelas, which Mrs. Klemp #1 was? #2 must be really hot, don't you think?

      > but Spirt is the redeeming grace of our
      > existence.

      I think our existence is just our existence, and very nice!

      > I will not deny my OOBEs.

      I don't deny mine, either. But I know I was *very* wrong about
      what I believed about them during my cult years.

      I'm still waiting for the ultimate OOBE, though...yep, I'm hoping
      they'll perfect total body transplants & I can get out of this one
      and into a nicely curved size 14!!! <ggg> Smaller feet would
      be nice, too.

      And, of course...naturally curly red hair!!

      (It's a matter of perspective, everyone!!)

      >If nothing else
      > then Spirit simply worked with what tapestry I was
      > comfortable with until I moved on beyond the cult and
      > my OOBEs would take on newer more meanigful
      > experiences, yes by God's grace indeed this happened
      > with my OOBEs.

      Actually, Randy, did you ever think of life on earth as an OOBE?

      Spirit is patient and loving, It knows
      > what direction my life will take long before I do and
      > will work in harmony with expectations I have that are
      > of a spiritual nature.

      Well...I don't have any expectations. I just have fun.

      > I will not deny the spirtual
      > side of my life.

      I think it's all spiritual, and actually don't have time to think
      about it.

      "Spiritual" seems to be the "in" buzzword of the times, doesn't it?

      >Eckankar will not cause me to ignore
      > my OOBEs. Just because Twit and those who follow him
      > are/were full of shit, does not mean that OOBEs never
      > happened.

      I like OODEs. (Out of Doors Experiences) (Fishing!!)

      I am just *very* glad that I have never popped out of my body like
      I did back in my 20's, while driving my beloved '55 chevy to a vo-tech horticulture class. Scared the heck out of me, to look down & see it heading up the road without me, and without collision insurance!

      >I rarely trust dream journeys.

      I should have trusted mine, and not tried to eckinterpret them.

      They were warnings.

      Hey...I had a dream experience with Sting!! We hugged!! It *was*

      >But I trust
      > Spirit will guide me to the correct OOBE experience I
      > need.

      I trust myself.

      Have you considered that your OOBE experiences were BAD and
      DECEPTIVE and maybe Spirit wants you to learn discernment?

      >As for the "rod of power"? Who knows? Has it
      > ever occured to any one that despite eckankar, a true
      > person could arrive and correct eckankar?

      Randy, eckankult is a crock of bullshit, and there is no way it
      can be corrected honestly. Except by closing up shop, admitting
      the truth, and sending out refunds to all the silly fools it conned
      over the years.

      > Or is it
      > true that we still image Spirit as having limitations
      > similar to our own?

      Spirit has no limitations, Randy. I think Spirit also couldn't
      care less about all the bullshit.

      Spirit is probably....fishing!! <ggg>

      >It more than likely is too late
      > for any correction. I can not imagine any honourable
      > Soul getting with the cult.

      Just had a thought...perhaps "Soul" is just the sum total of "all"
      of us, physical mental emotional, etc.?

      Yep, it *is* too late for correction. Klemp has only dug the hole
      deeper, and piled the eckankrap higher....

      > But our healing processes are different and yet
      > similar in some ways.)
      > >

      Boo-boos happen. I usually ignore them, and they heal on their own. Except lately, I *have* been using antibiotic cream and found they *do* heal faster...you know, annoying little things like paper cuts...

      > > Excuuuuse me...but, I certainly don't want anything
      > > to do with a "god" who's into this bullshit little
      > > boys' club nonsense, with secret words and
      > > handshakes and phallic symbols!!!

      >(What? No inner
      > circle jerk sessions? LOL

      Didn't I write a circle-jerk scenario? Maybe not...I know I did in my first response, but it somehow got "lost" and I had to re-write, and may have forgotten it!

      >BTW the belief in the secret
      > word is the key to a secret word's success.

      I had "success" without any words, before the cult.

      I don't think belief has anything to do with it, really. You can focus on your big toe & chant "boo" and it'll "work". It's simply relaxation, and much better if it's not being used to pound in cultic programming. A few quiet moments with a cup of chamomile tea & some nice relaxing music is just as good. Or gardening. Or...fishing!!

      > As it is
      > unto your faith, so it is to you-Yeshua.

      Randy, I can believe I have curly red hair forever, but I won't.

      > that Twit used certain truths that allowed his cult to
      > work. Despite eckankar the universal truths work.

      What do you mean, "work"?

      How about... "By their fruits, you shall know them."

      > P.Twitchell manipulated those truths for his own ends.


      > So I will not allow eckankar to influence me to just
      > trash universal truths that have been around since
      > before creation.)


      You know, Randy, actually right now I'm not that concerned with "spritual" stuff anymore. I guess I've got more practical concerns,
      at least for the moment.

      I just had a hilarious thought...imagine someone "soul traveling" here from the Astral Plane...landing at an Elks Club meeting where perhaps Joey "Galuuk" Homsey was acting all "spirichul" or something...would this astral traveler be impressed by the funny hats? Perhaps....

      > Thanks Sharon. I hope others continue to respond. Is
      > not interaction such as this good for our collective
      > healing?-Randy

      Yeah, I think chatting is good!! I don't feel like housework
      right now!! <ggg>

      Hey, do you want to hear something neat? Well...I mentioned Shellee, my pet mussel. It died. Well...I was busy. Didn't get around to doing a proper funeral or anything. Was planning to take care of it this weekend. Just left it in the tank. Maybe I was hoping it *wasn't* dead...but I'll be darned, would you believe that one day Shellee was there (and it *was* big enough to eat) and the next day...it was GONE!!! Honest!!! Nothing there but the empty shell!!!

      I wonder...was Shellee taken bodily into heaven like the Virgin Mary?

      Do mussels have souls?

      *Are* mussels soul?

      I just know they're darn tasty!!

      Gotta go!!


      Love & Hugs!!

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