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Re: [eckankartruth] Digest Number 1073

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  • m hussain
    Excellent post TC, my thoughts exactly although I could never put it as eloquently as your self. Even though eckanakar has its failings I have come to the
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 28, 2005
      Excellent post TC, my thoughts exactly although I could never put it as eloquently as your self. Even though eckanakar has its failings I have come to the conclusion that it undoubtedly works. People have had very enriching experiences in eckankar that have helped them them in their spiritual progress, i.e many people have learned soul travel as a result of the spiritual exercises, I myself have had dreams that have helped me (on one occasion while in eckankar a dream helped save my job), whether it was the dream master or higher self or Casper the ghost I don't know, all I know it worked as a result of the techniques I learned while in eckankar.
      I have been out of eckankar for over two years now (after 15 years of being an ecky), and have been looking into other teachings (after becoming disillusioned by HCS), and so far have come to the conclusion that Eckankar is the teaching that is closest to the truth(although it may not be the whole truth).But it is based on principles that are true and work.
      But the problem for me is that I still don't know who is guiding me ( higher self,mahantah or even the angels). I have been reading a lot about Angels lately and some of the experiences people have had are astounding.
      I am not pro eckankar or anti religion, I am of the school of thought that "if it works then use it". This is just my opinion and experience, I do not expect everyone to agree with me but thought I would write in to see of anyone has had similar experiences or opinions.
       
       
      Thomas Bennett <thomascbennett@...> wrote:

      ShabdaHu.

      . . . the progenitor's of Eckankar, which are

      Sant Mat and Radhaosoami - they're actually not high on the real

      enlightened scale among gurus.  [To which is replied:]

       

      T.C.

      So, let�s fit it together. Sant Mat and Radhaosoami are not the source of Twitchells�s system. You�re just generalizing, to make a point about Twitchell�s debt to the shabd paths. Twitchell is endbted to many sources, and so, for example, is Christianity, for that matter. Twitchell's method of appropriation is just more obvious in the method of compilation.

       

      A university upper division theology class is a little too removed from an unenlightened consumerism and uncritical examination of popular culture and received knowledge.

       

      A teaching �real high on the enlightened scale among gurus� is merely the system you�re presently practicing, receiving a high rating because you�re getting results. Other people are getting results, too. For example, Catholics have a teaching high on the �enlightened scale,' among only begotten sons, and one backed up by scripture.

       

      And so do Eckists, and Buddhists, and everybody else, for that matter. Cultural relativism may not be one's forte around here. In an eternal NOW, you raise the consciousness by meditation, prayer, contemplation, karma yoga, motorcycle maintanence, and mindfulness while loading the dishwasher or driving to work. �Truth is One, the local gurus give it all the different names.� (Ekam Sat Vipre, Bahudha Vedanta.)

       

      >T.C.

      > The dream master as terminology is only semantics. [To which is replied:]

       

      >>Sharon.

      Nope, the "dream master" stuff is NOT just semantics.  The cult teaches that Klemp *is* the dream master.   At at official cult intros on dreams, his photo,  which is displayed at *all* eckfunctions, is held up for the benefit of inquiring newbies.   And they're told that this is the dream

      master, the person you should visualize when you're starting your study

      of your dreams.   [To which is replied:]

       

      T.C.

      What do you base your conclusion on? Their experience of the Dream Master? Or yours?

       

      Let them have their spiritual experience. The Hopi Indians can have the Katchinas. Three little children can have their Miracle of Fatima. Its OK, you can have yours. (Heck Bashin.) With regard to the universality of symbolisms over the world, please visit Joseph Campbell, �The Power of Myth,� at your local library or bookstore shelf (religion/philosophy). 

       

      They�re ALL the Dream Master, realized through the individual's consciousness.

       

      Choose your tupper-ware. 

       

      The point is, one�s relationship within the ecstatic experience of [somebody or other's] spiritual realization IS the real destination. To outsiders, one�s teacher may look like anybody else's. We mustn�t get hung up on semantics.

       

      Think of a world religion responsible for the emergence of modern European civilization. One that still has a profound place in the lives of believers. Those who adhere to the practices of this religion have a photo, too. Yet, we are not attacking *them.*

       

      Similarly, within the shabdha teaching, there is, as well, a vehicle for the enlightened. Where is the contradiction? It isn�t until one tries to make comparisons, or impose one�s religious or intellectual orientation on the world, that there is a contradiction. That�s when we discover all the undeniable dichotomies and irreconcilable differences of other points of view.

       

      In simplest terms, different systems are not be commensurate with one another. Is that such a vast stretch of the imagination? Eck is all hooey. So, oddly enough, is 'not eck' a lot of hooey, doesn't it stand to reason.

       

      Contact with absolute reality without the mask of cultural or religious identifications is upper-division spiritual practice, for there is no name attached. Therefore, grass-hopper, these are merely guises.

       

      The world is a description, Carlitos, one which one must live with, change, or locate one's cubic centemeter of chance, none the less. We peel away the fabric of any description through a spiritual practice and relationship with the Divine 'not-eck.' Then, through the �intercession� of the savior, master, guru, spiritual shabd current, secret docoder ring, with practice over a lifetime our old material states of consciousness are �absolved� and 'forgiven' within the totality of ourselves as spiritual 'not-eck' beings.

       

      So, Eckists want to do it their way. Let them have their way and Truth. Lets have our Cocoa-puffs. They can have their Captian Crunch. And we can have our 'not-eck.' I wouldn't be at all surprised if every enlightened telivision commercial sent from advertising hades tries to shares something of the luminous 'not-eck' experience of the no-thing soul.

       

      >>Fishnik.

      just yesterday i phoned to discuss her exodus [from Eckankar], and discovered that she had not only stayed in the cult, but doubled her commitment. she told me that on the very night that we had discussed twitchells plagarism she had a terrible inner dream experience. she had been confronted with a horrible terrifying void in the dream, and she had awakened in a panic. [To which is replied:]

       

      T.C.

      Don't panic. People connected with an initiatory program to the light and sound current are brought into aligment through a carrier wave, or protective enclosure of the master-matrix, the spiritual configuration of a 14th initiate from Valley of Tirmir Drive. Alchemy symbolized this with a perfectly (or hermetically) sealed container, whereby the primodial material (soul, psyche) is brought to perfection through a spectrum of colours, on the way to the lapis excelis (somehtin which, also, doesn't exist).

       

      Things which don't exist, we needn't worry ourselves with here.

       

      I should leave off here now, with Alf and Sharon and ShabdaHu and Fishnik and all our hubris.

       

      luv

      T.C.

      eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      Message: 1
      Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:03:14 -0000
      From: al_radzik
      Subject: Re: There's a certain lack of humility


      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "cohutche" wrote:
      >
      > In most of the posts I've read so far on this board.
      >
      > (I am a new member).
      >
      > Simon
      >

      Hi Simon....
      Don't worry, I don't bite!
      Just remember.....humility is not a criteria for being here. I am a
      loud, crude, brash and boisterous Eck basher and don't like beating
      around the bush or mince words....

      Alf

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    • rumizappo
      ... actually comprehending anything you re reading and even rearrange the meaning of it. ... which are Sant Mat and Radhaosoami - they re actually not high on
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 29, 2005
        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, ShabdaHu <shabdahu@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi TC.
        >
        > Wow. What extraordinary reading methods you use; just cut out
        actually comprehending anything you're reading and even rearrange the
        meaning of it.
        >
        > How did you get from this, the quote from my e-mail:
        >
        > "And I'm not referring to simply the progenitor's of Eckankar,
        which are Sant Mat and Radhaosoami - they're actually not high on the
        real enlightened scale among gurus. They've infected their paths with
        a lot of personality and personal proclivities that they wish to make
        seem God authoritative and which are not."
        >
        > To this, the response from your e-mail:
        >
        > "A teaching `real high on the enlightened scale among gurus' is
        merely the system you're presently practicing, receiving a high
        rating because you're getting results. Other people are getting
        results, too. For example, Catholics have a teaching high on
        the `enlightened scale,' among only begotten sons, and one backed up
        by scripture."
        >
        > There was nothing in my statement remotely saying that I was
        practicing a system with gurus that I was saying, "were not real high
        on the enlightened scale". You even have in there that I'm rating
        them highly. And then you missed altogether the more salient point
        that many inject their personalities into the path and try to make
        their personal opinions seem God authoritative.
        >
        > Also, you weren't being invited to inform me of what I meant by any
        of my statements that you are apparently incapable of comprehending
        what they really meant, anyway, and any sincere conversationalist
        would never utilize that tactic. They would ask a question, not look
        anxious to drop their pretentious baloney on whomever they could, and
        go to the extremes of rearranging meanings to make the opportunity
        appear for dropping pretentious baloney. You're completely off in
        your surmisals of why I said what I said, what I actually meant, and
        your "loosely true" statement about Paul appropriations sounds like
        it was lifted from an Eck apolopathetics book. Your other statement
        about Sant Mat/Radhasoami not being the source of Eckankar's
        cosmologies and psychology, is just flat out ignorant or devised as
        more Eck apolopathetics. Of course, you didn't know that I was
        referring to their cosmology/psychology, and the fact that all in
        Eckankar has inherited that history more particularly than
        > any other, because you didn't ask and you're not interested in the
        details of those particular subjects.
        >
        > In cases like that, you should, in order not to appear as though
        you need to dream up BS to look superior, just simply say, "I don't
        understand this point, I'm a blaise 'it's all one' kind of person and
        I can't relate to non-blaise 'it's all one' kinds of people (that
        fact was one reason this list was created, btw, in case you missed
        that blazingly obvious point, too - the extreme separtism of
        Eckankar/it's tendency to trash other paths, which they inherited
        from their parent path of SM/Rad., is one reason this list exists -
        because people got real sick of the lying, separtism notions - you
        might want to pick up that point to be a little more in step here).
        >
        > Or just admit that you're on an agenda on this list that you can't
        be more honest in speaking about because it's actually against other
        major points in the list's agenda.
        >
        > And then you go on to make yourself appear spiritually eclectic and
        like who you're speaking to isn't. And that's after you
        slash/rearrange other's writings and show no capacity at even
        attempting to understand their communications? It's a wonder you were
        able to pick up in your readings that other paths, like Buddhism,
        Christianity, etc., experience results. It must have suited something
        in your manipulations to see that, because it's obvious that when it
        doesn't suit your manipulations, you studiously don't comprehend
        anything.
        >
        > Manipulations and phony baloney are wreaking from your post here.
        Your form of teaching eclectic notions, which doesn't really feel
        like your truer motives - it's all been so well wrapped to come off
        as Eck apolopathetics, and come off as condscending besides, are not
        appreciated. If you can't be sincere and eye-to-eye with people with
        whom you're writing, it's doubtful you are the same with anything
        spiritual in your life, and you might want to work on that problem to
        get to the point where you have anything truly valuable to say. Using
        quality spiritual notions to hide low quality, dishonest motives
        isn't really one of the brighter things to be doing with "spiritual
        things".
        >
        > And what's this garbage?:
        >
        > "A university upper division theology class is a little too removed
        from an unenlightened consumerism and uncritical examination of
        popular culture and received knowledge".
        >
        > You think people are too stupid to get highly detailed about their
        paths/yoga/gurus knowledge, while they are also realizing, or should
        be treated as such because they're simply unenlightened "consumers"
        and can't handle any more complex knowledges? And that they
        shouldn't be subjected to anything upper division so they can remain
        being mushrooms being fed BS in the dark? Or is this simply the "I
        can't dazzle them with brilliance, so I'll attempt to baffle them
        with BS?" tactics?
        >
        > I'm really not looking for an answer by asking that question. It
        was just so obviously designed to make you look like you're bright,
        at least in your view, that I just had to give it a little star show
        here. What you're about is most obvious in the whole of your e-mail.
        >
        > Bye.
        >
        > shabdahu.
        >
        >
        > Thomas Bennett <thomascbennett@y...> wrote:
        > ShabdaHu.
        >
        > . . . the progenitor's of Eckankar, which are
        >
        > Sant Mat and Radhaosoami - they're actually not high on the real
        >
        > enlightened scale among gurus. [To which is replied:]
        >
        >
        >
        > T.C.
        >
        > So, let's fit it together. Sant Mat and Radhaosoami are not the
        source of Twitchells's system. You're just generalizing, to make a
        point about Twitchell's debt to the shabd paths. Twitchell is endbted
        to many sources, and so, for example, is Christianity, for that
        matter. Twitchell's method of appropriation is just more obvious in
        the method of compilation.
        >
        >
        >
        > A university upper division theology class is a little too removed
        from an unenlightened consumerism and uncritical examination of
        popular culture and received knowledge.
        >
        >
        >
        > A teaching `real high on the enlightened scale among gurus' is
        merely the system you're presently practicing, receiving a high
        rating because you're getting results. Other people are getting
        results, too. For example, Catholics have a teaching high on
        the `enlightened scale,' among only begotten sons, and one backed up
        by scripture.
        >
        >
        >
        > And so do Eckists, and Buddhists, and everybody else, for that
        matter. Cultural relativism may not be one's forte around here. In an
        eternal NOW, you raise the consciousness by meditation, prayer,
        contemplation, karma yoga, motorcycle maintanence, and mindfulness
        while loading the dishwasher or driving to work. `Truth is One, the
        local gurus give it all the different names.' (Ekam Sat Vipre,
        Bahudha Vedanta.)
        >
        >
        >
        > >T.C.
        >
        > > The dream master as terminology is only semantics. [To which is
        replied:]
        >
        >
        >
        > >>Sharon.
        >
        > Nope, the "dream master" stuff is NOT just semantics. The cult
        teaches that Klemp *is* the dream master. At at official cult
        intros on dreams, his photo, which is displayed at *all*
        eckfunctions, is held up for the benefit of inquiring newbies. And
        they're told that this is the dream
        >
        > master, the person you should visualize when you're starting your
        study
        >
        > of your dreams. [To which is replied:]
        >
        >
        >
        > T.C.
        >
        > What do you base your conclusion on? Their experience of the Dream
        Master? Or yours?
        >
        >
        >
        > Let them have their spiritual experience. The Hopi Indians can have
        the Katchinas. Three little children can have their Miracle of
        Fatima. Its OK, you can have yours. (Heck Bashin.) With regard to the
        universality of symbolisms over the world, please visit Joseph
        Campbell, "The Power of Myth," at your local library or bookstore
        shelf (religion/philosophy).
        >
        >
        >
        > They're ALL the Dream Master, realized through the individual's
        consciousness.
        >
        >
        >
        > Choose your tupper-ware.
        >
        >
        >
        > The point is, one's relationship within the ecstatic experience of
        [somebody or other's] spiritual realization IS the real destination.
        To outsiders, one's teacher may look like anybody else's. We mustn't
        get hung up on semantics.
        >
        >
        >
        > Think of a world religion responsible for the emergence of modern
        European civilization. One that still has a profound place in the
        lives of believers. Those who adhere to the practices of this
        religion have a photo, too. Yet, we are not attacking *them.*
        >
        >
        >
        > Similarly, within the shabdha teaching, there is, as well, a
        vehicle for the enlightened. Where is the contradiction? It isn't
        until one tries to make comparisons, or impose one's religious or
        intellectual orientation on the world, that there is a contradiction.
        That's when we discover all the undeniable dichotomies and
        irreconcilable differences of other points of view.
        >
        >
        >
        > In simplest terms, different systems are not be commensurate with
        one another. Is that such a vast stretch of the imagination? Eck is
        all hooey. So, oddly enough, is 'not eck' a lot of hooey, doesn't it
        stand to reason.
        >
        >
        >
        > Contact with absolute reality without the mask of cultural or
        religious identifications is upper-division spiritual practice, for
        there is no name attached. Therefore, grass-hopper, these are merely
        guises.
        >
        >
        >
        > The world is a description, Carlitos, one which one must live with,
        change, or locate one's cubic centemeter of chance, none the less. We
        peel away the fabric of any description through a spiritual practice
        and relationship with the Divine 'not-eck.' Then, through
        the `intercession' of the savior, master, guru, spiritual shabd
        current, secret docoder ring, with practice over a lifetime our old
        material states of consciousness are `absolved' and 'forgiven' within
        the totality of ourselves as spiritual 'not-eck' beings.
        >
        >
        >
        > So, Eckists want to do it their way. Let them have their way and
        Truth. Lets have our Cocoa-puffs. They can have their Captian Crunch.
        And we can have our 'not-eck.' I wouldn't be at all surprised if
        every enlightened telivision commercial sent from advertising hades
        tries to shares something of the luminous 'not-eck' experience of the
        no-thing soul.
        >
        >
        >
        > >>Fishnik.
        >
        > just yesterday i phoned to discuss her exodus [from Eckankar], and
        discovered that she had not only stayed in the cult, but doubled her
        commitment. she told me that on the very night that we had discussed
        twitchells plagarism she had a terrible inner dream experience. she
        had been confronted with a horrible terrifying void in the dream, and
        she had awakened in a panic. [To which is replied:]
        >
        >
        >
        > T.C.
        >
        > Don't panic. People connected with an initiatory program to the
        light and sound current are brought into aligment through a carrier
        wave, or protective enclosure of the master-matrix, the spiritual
        configuration of a 14th initiate from Valley of Tirmir Drive. Alchemy
        symbolized this with a perfectly (or hermetically) sealed container,
        whereby the primodial material (soul, psyche) is brought to
        perfection through a spectrum of colours, on the way to the lapis
        excelis (somehtin which, also, doesn't exist).
        >
        >
        >
        > Things which don't exist, we needn't worry ourselves with here.
        >
        >
        >
        > I should leave off here now, with Alf and Sharon and ShabdaHu and
        Fishnik and all our hubris.
        >
        >
        >
        > luv
        >
        > T.C.
        >
        > eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com wrote:
        > Message: 1
        > Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:03:14 -0000
        > From: al_radzik
        > Subject: Re: There's a certain lack of humility
        >
        >
        > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "cohutche" wrote:
        > >
        > > In most of the posts I've read so far on this board.
        > >
        > > (I am a new member).
        > >
        > > Simon
        > >
        >
        > Hi Simon....
        > Don't worry, I don't bite!
        > Just remember.....humility is not a criteria for being here. I am a
        > loud, crude, brash and boisterous Eck basher and don't like beating
        > around the bush or mince words....
        >
        > Alf
        >
        >
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        >
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      • rumizappo
        ... This is for ShabdaHu: Hi there ShabdaHu I was just wondering if you are an ECKist or an EK or Ex ECKist, that is, one who has gone outside or beyond the
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 29, 2005
          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, ShabdaHu <shabdahu@y...> wrote:
          > <snipped repeat of that long, long post!)

          This is for ShabdaHu:

          Hi there ShabdaHu

          I was just wondering if you are an ECKist or an EK or Ex ECKist, that
          is, one who has gone outside or beyond the present Harold Klemp
          bedtime story of ECKANKAR.

          By the way, love your name. (Honestly)

          Sincerely,

          SpaceGivingIsRumi
        • rumizappo
          ... joined another western group that was more based around Sant Mat itself, particularly Science of Spirituality, which was the path Paul left before creating
          Message 4 of 5 , May 2, 2005
            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, ShabdaHu <shabdahu@y...> wrote:
            > Hi SpaceGivingIsRumi.
            >
            > I'm an ex-Eckist. I was a member of Eckankar for 3 years, left and
            joined another western group that was more based around Sant Mat
            itself, particularly Science of Spirituality, which was the path Paul
            left before creating Eckankar. Then I left that, too<S>, but not
            until I'd studied quite a bit of it and then began to see the *spins*
            it had put on the bhakti yoga path and over which SM had no original
            claims.
            >
            > The name shabdahu came from marrying one favorite word of the SM's
            for sound with Hoooooo or Whooooooooooo, which I came to know in it's
            sound as an inner "wind" a few years before I found Eckankar, and
            which I can see you know is also the main word for God for at least
            most Sufi paths. But I didn't know anything of those paths, or any
            path, when I first experienced Hooooo and I spell it that way to
            indicate the more pronunciation I intend for it and as compared to
            Eckankar.
            >



            Hi Shabdahu!


            > Of course, shabda is just a general sanskrit word for sound,
            however, and isn't a creation of the SM's. And these years later, I
            realize, too, that Hoooo or Whooo as a wind sound is one of
            those "doesn't belong to any culture" sounds; it's a sound that
            occurs for every culture with the same sound. It's like sohum that
            way, and which is the sounds the breath makes on intake and
            expellation. I've also seen Hooo classified as a seed mantra because
            it is one syllable. Someday I may be changing Hu to Hoo to further
            underscore it's pronunication and to make it cultureless.
            >
            > I read a lot of Rumi, however, and love his works, like just about
            everyone else does, it seems:). He's been a real mainstay for me
            many times on the path.
            >
            > In Hoooo,
            >
            > shabdahu.
            >
            >
            >

            Hi Shabdahu!

            Thanks for responding. I first read about ECKANKAR in 1969 when I was
            thirteen, but didn't find anyone who was in it until four years
            later, so I became a member in 1973.

            My renewal came up earlier this year, but for so many reasons some of
            us know all too well, I finally let it go.

            I read a little bit about Sant Mat when I was thirteen, but didn't
            really know much about it until the late seventies. I have been
            reading Rumi since I was thirteen and fortunately (for the most part)
            there are alot more Rumi translators than there were in the sixties
            and seventies!

            And, of course, Rumi has his own webpage on "Sri" Michael Owens' site
            (!) But how did his poetry get so bad over 700 years? Has he been
            drinking Mad Dog or Boones Farm?

            I agree with you that Hu is really pronounced Hoo or a balance
            between Hugh and Hoo...

            And that Hu doesn't belong to any particular path and has been around
            all throughout history in various cultures all over the world.

            But you knew that!

            Anyway, thanks for responding.

            SpaceGivingIsRumi








            >
            > rumizappo <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
            > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, ShabdaHu <shabdahu@y...>
            wrote:
            > > <snipped repeat of that long, long post!)
            >
            > This is for ShabdaHu:
            >
            > Hi there ShabdaHu
            >
            > I was just wondering if you are an ECKist or an EK or Ex ECKist,
            that
            > is, one who has gone outside or beyond the present Harold Klemp
            > bedtime story of ECKANKAR.
            >
            > By the way, love your name. (Honestly)
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > SpaceGivingIsRumi
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > eckankartruth-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
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