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For Mike, Re: Initiate's letter etc Hi All

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  • violinmike2002
    ... to being called a Judas ... their facts right before they start throwing accusations,The last time I recalled this was a civilised group with intelligent
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 18, 2005
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      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, pato <patouz27@y...> wrote:
      > E >
      > Maybe I do E after a five minute giggle.Mmm like I said-i`m used
      to being called a Judas
      > on a daily basis.LOL. But it would be nice for Individuals to get
      their facts right before they start throwing accusations,The last
      time I recalled this was a civilised group with intelligent
      > individuals here and i`m optimist to feel this is still the case.I
      personally ask or enquire before I accuse.
      > LoL. E thanks for your support maybe I should add a bit of American
      humor to my posts in future,LOL.
      > Mike go all the way back and read my files here.That may help you
      abit,oh and apology accepted.LOL
      > Picking my Kids up shortly,have a nice weekend everyone.
      > Pato Sailing on....................
      >
      I can't remember if you're Gary or Lee, I can't be bothered reading
      the archives of your posted nonsense. Be suspicious of everything on
      the internet people even peoples names. You did e mail me back around
      nov 2003 as my alter ego
      which I dropped to get real with people including eckankar.
      My voice though has always been mine though.
      Mike.
      thats the end of it now.
    • violinmike2002
      ... not do that? Sorry to hear that during a very difficult period in your life, someone was that sick to do such a thing !!! Maybe Pato should
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 18, 2005
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        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Greg and Liz
        <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
        > Or maybe someone played a cruel joke on you? The Pato I know would
        not do that? Sorry to hear that during a very difficult period in
        your life, someone was that sick to do such a thing !!! Maybe Pato
        should comment.....
        >
        > Hope everyone has a good weekend. I need to get refocused on my
        studies. Another difficult exam coming up on "contracts" which has
        been a real pain......
        >
        > Mike I hope I have not offended you? Didn't intended to sound
        confrontational!
        >
        > Elizabeth

        No no sorry if I seem upset. I dont really hang around
        these groups. After a year I was surprised to see ol' " Pato"
        again still. The internet in general brings the world nearby
        without filtering anything out.
      • pato
        Ok mike,let me put the record straight,i`m not sure whether i ever wrote you or not.You mentioned your fathers death.Maybe I related with that because of my
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 18, 2005
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          Ok mike,let me put the record straight,i`m not sure whether i ever wrote you or not.You mentioned your fathers death.Maybe I related with that because of my fathers own death of which people close to me know and I was offering my sympathy or condonesences.What I do know is you have definately either misunderstand or mis interpreteted that email I sent you or got me completely mixed up with someone else.

          Maybe you are Micky Mouse-dont know-dont care!

          But if you want to babble on,its your choice and if this group is not that important for you to come on then its a bit silly coming out with what we drain down the toilet,Behave! But I ageree with the last thing you wrote.....

          That is the end of the matter.

          Peace

          Putting kids to bed

          Pato  or Judas  LOL

          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

        • brighttigress@yahoo.com
          Hi Marie - Well, it s taken me quite awhile to get here and respond. I appreciate your taking the time to tell us about the letter Klemp sends to people
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 25, 2005
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            Hi Marie -

            Well, it's taken me quite awhile to get here and respond. I appreciate
            your taking the time to tell us about the letter Klemp sends to people
            starting the third series of the "Satsang" discourses. One thought I have
            - I wonder if this letter is new, or the same one they've been sending out
            for many years. My last discourse series was Satsang 1, but I've got the
            rest of them, someone else sent them along with just about every little
            tiny scrap of cult material, all saved thru the years. I'll have to find
            that box & look for the letter. But what was said isn't anything new -
            the wording is *very* familiar, in fact, if I recall correctly, this
            threat is even in the cult's dictionary for the definitions of "mahanta"
            and or LEM.

            Seriously, I find it a bit strange that your two eckist friends were so
            shocked and upset about this, because it's certainly nothing new. I
            remember reading all that stuff right from the beginning. I didn't really
            focus on it, of course, because I found it impossible to believe that
            *any* eckist, especially me, would ever leave the cult or turn against the
            "master" in any way. The only way I thought this was possible was because
            the "teachings" said that we'd all been with "the master" in previous
            lives and we'd all made the mistake of leaving in one life or another,
            because "soul" has to experience *everything*. I always hoped that my
            serial killer incarnation was over & done with long ago. <giggle>

            You know, I'm thinking perhaps your friends paid more attention this time
            because it's not just words in a book anymore. It's personal, and aimed
            at nice people like *you*, who'd given their lives, hearts, minds,
            service, and soul to the cult.

            You know, I was recently at the Wikipedia website, and guess what it says
            in the "eckankar" article? "Eckankar teaches that members not finding
            what they are looking for, should feel free to look for another path, and
            not feel bound by guilt or fear to stay with Eckankar."

            This is a great example of how the cult's "public image" is very
            deceptive, and how the talk doesn't match the walk.

            It's probably quite natural to feel some bitterness and resentment, but
            why let something like this ruin your otherwise good mood and happy life
            "out"? When I was a kid, I was told to "consider the source" when other
            kids teased me or said bad things about me - and looking at those other
            kids, it was quite obvious that they usually had no room to talk!

            Just yesterday I got an email from a new exie who said they felt very bad
            for all the anger they used to hurl at David Lane. Seeing eckist anger at
            a.r.e., especially from HIs & "clergy", was something that helped me wake
            up and get out. It's sort of ironic that the angriest eckthugs are the
            ones who only see anger coming from former members, even when it's quite
            obvious that the anger they see just isn't there. And it's hilarious when
            they mindlessly "accuse" former members of being blind brainwashed non-
            thinking followers of David Lane - the ones who say are usually the ones
            who are the most cultic about Klemp! They just can't even imagine what
            it's like not to "belong" to something, to live freely without some type
            of authority figure telling them what they should be doing, thinking,
            feeling, etc.

            So - consider the source of the insults, threats, etc. And remember when
            *you* were an eckist and may have had the same feelings about those who
            leave. And you know, Harold is such a perfect example of where "the path"
            leads - not a pretty picture, is it?

            You know, as I wrote this something popped into my head, I guess it's
            appropriate to the season. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what
            they do."

            Anyway, as usual when the seasons change, I think about you down there in
            NZ - you're heading for winter, and here we're looking forward to Spring!
            You know, I just wondered - do you get snow down there? I'll have to
            look it up! We just had a beautiful little snowstorm, the prettiest we've
            had all winter! I got 8" out on my deck. I really enjoy seeing TV
            "tours" of NZ, it's so incredibly beautiful!!

            Well, gotta move along here! You take care now, thanks for popping in &
            contributing a bit, I'm always happy to "see" you!!

            Hugs,

            Sharon


            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Marie Patrick <zirkar@y...> wrote:
            > Hi,
            > I have just been on holiday on the West Coast of New
            > Zealand which has awesome scenery. On the way home
            > called in to see friends and was given a copy of an
            > initiates letter sent to those ready to commence the
            > study series the eck satsang discourses third series.
            > I tried to scan and copy the whole letter but was not
            > able to do so so I have taken an extract. This
            > paragraph really upset my friend who has just sent
            > away his membership and is regretting it bitterly. I
            > must say it shocked me and another friend said she
            > felt quite sick when she read it.
            >
            > "Paul Twhitchell wrote the first five of these
            > discourses just a few months before his translation.
            > He was quite frank about the effects that hit a Judas
            > in ECK. Any overt act against the Mahanta the Living
            > Eck Master evokes the full fury of the divine power.
            > It stops acting in the troublemakers behalf, and
            > misery is the outcome. Generally, he can hardly grasp
            > the sudden rash of problems that double at every turn,
            > he blames others for them."
            >
            > I resent being called a Judas and a detractor as one
            > eckist called me. I always understood in eck that we
            > were free to leave at any time but when one does one
            > is cast aside and called names. So much for a path of
            > love and freedom!
            >
            > Regards,
            > Marie
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
            > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
          • Marie Patrick
            ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 26, 2005
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              --- Marie Patrick <zirkar@...> wrote:

              > Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:55:43 -0800 (PST)
              > From: Marie Patrick <zirkar@...>
              > Subject: Fwd: [eckankartruth] Re: Initiate's letter
              > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Hi Sharon,
              > Thanks you for responding to my letter. Just a few
              > points I wish to say:
              >
              > > Sharron wrote:
              > > Well, it's taken me quite awhile to get here and
              > > respond. I appreciate
              > > your taking the time to tell us about the letter
              > > Klemp sends to people
              > > starting the third series of the "Satsang"
              > > discourses. One thought I have
              > > - I wonder if this letter is new, or the same one
              > > they've been sending out
              >
              > I do not recall in any of the letter's to initiates
              > calling people names such as a Judas before.
              >
              >
              > > But what was said
              > > isn't anything new -
              > > the wording is *very* familiar, in fact, if I
              > recall
              > > correctly, this
              > > threat is even in the cult's dictionary for the
              > > definitions of "mahanta"
              > > and or LEM.
              >
              > I previously thought that threats in the cult were
              > more subtle than in this letter or was it just that
              > I
              > chose not to see it?
              > >
              > > Seriously, I find it a bit strange that your two
              > > eckist friends were so
              > > shocked and upset about this, because it's
              > certainly
              > > nothing new.
              >
              > They were upset because the threatening stuff is
              > more
              > blatant now. Is eckankar running scared? In the case
              > of my friend who has just renewed his membership and
              > is regretting it he does not wish to be involved
              > with
              > an organization that has changed so much since the
              > days of Twitchell. It is not the eckankar that we
              > thought of as the path of freedom and love. He has
              > just become aware to what is really happening now
              > and
              > that is shocking for him.
              > > >
              > > You know, I'm thinking perhaps your friends paid
              > > more attention this time
              > > because it's not just words in a book anymore.
              > It's
              > > personal, and aimed
              > > at nice people like *you*, who'd given their
              > lives,
              > > hearts, minds,
              > > service, and soul to the cult.
              >
              > I agree totally, it is the personal aspects of the
              > letter that I was upset with.
              > >
              > > You know, I was recently at the Wikipedia website,
              > > and guess what it says
              > > in the "eckankar" article? "Eckankar teaches that
              > > members not finding
              > > what they are looking for, should feel free to
              > look
              > > for another path, and
              > > not feel bound by guilt or fear to stay with
              > > Eckankar."
              >
              > I always understood that we were free to leave at
              > any
              > time but obviously this is not true.
              > >
              > > This is a great example of how the cult's "public
              > > image" is very
              > > deceptive, and how the talk doesn't match the
              > walk.
              >
              > I agree.
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > Anyway, as usual when the seasons change, I think
              > > about you down there in
              > > NZ - you're heading for winter, and here we're
              > > looking forward to Spring!
              > > You know, I just wondered - do you get snow down
              > > there?
              >
              > We get a few falls of snow during the winter but
              > mainly on the mountains and hills. Where I live on
              > the flat we very seldom have snow settle but if it
              > does it only last for a day or two.
              >
              > I'll have to
              > > look it up! We just had a beautiful little
              > > snowstorm, the prettiest we've
              > > had all winter! I got 8" out on my deck. I
              > really
              > > enjoy seeing TV
              > > "tours" of NZ, it's so incredibly beautiful!!
              >
              > New Zealand is very beautiful and I have just
              > enjoyed
              > a holiday on the West Coast where the scenery is
              > awesome. But with saying that I enjoy seeing the
              > U.S.A. and Canada on television too as they are also
              > countries with great beauty the only difference in
              > N.Z. is we have a great variety in a very small area
              > so one can get around it more easily and it is
              > closer
              > to where we live.
              > >
              > > Well, gotta move along here! You take care now,
              > > thanks for popping in &
              > > contributing a bit, I'm always happy to "see"
              > you!!
              >
              > Thank you. Your replies always give me a warm fuzzy
              > and it is wonderful to know that I have a friend at
              > the other end of the world. I also appreciate every
              > one else in the group and although I keep thinking I
              > ought to leave I just cannot bring myself to do
              > that,
              > so even though I do not write often I always check
              > in
              > each day. Often I would reply to comments but by
              > the
              > time I read the letters someone has usually said
              > exactly what I would already so there does not seem
              > much point repeating it.
              >
              > Love and regards to all,
              >
              > Marie
              >
              >
              > > >
              > > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
              > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
              >




              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
              http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
            • Sharon
              ... You re probably right. Of course, that might be because Johnson is Klemp s first experience with someone breaking off and starting their own path .
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 28, 2005
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                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Marie Patrick <zirkar@y...> wrote:
                >
                > --- Marie Patrick <zirkar@y...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > I do not recall in any of the letter's to initiates
                > > calling people names such as a Judas before.
                > >

                You're probably right. Of course, that might be because Johnson is
                Klemp's first experience with someone breaking off and starting their own
                "path". Twitchell did, though, and here's what he said about it in
                "Letters to a Chela", Chapter 8:

                "While I have explained transmigration...the ECKist holds to
                the concept that the individual evolves ever higher and higher inform and
                only through irrevocable misdeeds would a Soul have to go back to lower
                life, vegetable, or mineral forms. This can happen, however, and will be
                explained in detail in subsequent discourses in this series."

                In Chapter 9, he tells us what this "irrevocable misdeed" is - breaking
                off to start your own path. See:
                http://forums.delphiforums.com/eckankartruth/messages/?msg=60.1


                > > I previously thought that threats in the cult were
                > > more subtle than in this letter or was it just that
                > > I
                > > chose not to see it?
                > > >
                > >

                I just thought of "Darwingate" - now, I don't remember the exact words
                Klemp used, and although I don't think he came straight out and called
                Darwin a "black magician", he at least came pretty close to it, and told
                members to destroy anything connected with Darwin, and get it out of their
                homes...I remember a whole Klemp discourse about this, although he didn't
                directly refer to Darwin in it.

                I don't think previous threats were any more subtle, just a bit different
                - not direct name-calling. I sort of skimmed over the threats and forgot
                about them since I felt they didn't apply to me - I would certainly never
                leave the "master"! <gg>


                > > They were upset because the threatening stuff is
                > > more
                > > blatant now. Is eckankar running scared?

                It's hard to tell, but I think it's quite likely. Ford Johnson isn't any
                more forthcoming about membership figures & financial disclosure than the
                LEMs were and are, but he did plenty of "market research" before he
                published the book & set the whole thing up. He wouldn't have done it
                unless he knew he'd make a profit on it. And I'd say it's quite likely
                he'll do quite well.


                > >In the case
                > > of my friend who has just renewed his membership and
                > > is regretting it he does not wish to be involved
                > > with
                > > an organization that has changed so much since the
                > > days of Twitchell. It is not the eckankar that we
                > > thought of as the path of freedom and love. He has
                > > just become aware to what is really happening now
                > > and that is shocking for him.

                It hasn't really changed - it's just grown *exactly* as Twitch wanted it
                to. You know, I used to wonder a bit over the years, as they kept
                changing the "slogan" - how many were there? Seemed like there was a new
                one every time the "Mystic World" was send out! Can't even remember them
                all, but they've stuck to "The Religion of the Light and Sound of God" for
                quite awhile. Personally, I think this one is too long - but the previous
                one, "The New-Age Religion" evidently wasn't getting enough response.

                Yep, it's shocking. But your friend will be all right - the path of
                freedom & love is still there, even though it's not in e-kult, it's inside
                of us.

                > > > You know, I'm thinking perhaps your friends paid
                > > > more attention this time because it's not just words in a book
                > > >anymore. It's personal, and aimed at nice people like *you*, who'd
                > > >given their lives, hearts, minds, service, and soul to the cult.
                > >
                > > I agree totally, it is the personal aspects of the
                > > letter that I was upset with.
                > > >

                (I'm getting mixed up with the "> >s" and I think I'm responding twice to
                the same things.)

                > >
                > > New Zealand is very beautiful and I have just
                > > enjoyed
                > > a holiday on the West Coast where the scenery is
                > > awesome. But with saying that I enjoy seeing the
                > > U.S.A. and Canada on television too as they are also
                > > countries with great beauty the only difference in
                > > N.Z. is we have a great variety in a very small area
                > > so one can get around it more easily and it is
                > > closer
                > > to where we live.
                > > >

                Yes, being in a small area is definitely an advantage! Of course, here in
                the US, you can fly anywhere pretty quickly for a change in scenery, I
                guess it depends on your lifestyle. I live on the East Coast and I'd love
                to see our Southwest, but it would take more than a weekend trip to really
                see it all, I think!


                > > > Well, gotta move along here! You take care now,
                > > > thanks for popping in &
                > > > contributing a bit, I'm always happy to "see"
                > > you!!
                > >
                > > Thank you. Your replies always give me a warm fuzzy
                > > and it is wonderful to know that I have a friend at
                > > the other end of the world.


                Thank *you* - and I'm glad I don't offend *everyone*! <gg>

                Yes, it's a lot of fun to be able to "meet" so many nice people from so
                many places, isn't it? And we can communicate instantly!!


                I also appreciate every
                > > one else in the group and although I keep thinking I
                > > ought to leave I just cannot bring myself to do
                > > that, so even though I do not write often I always check
                > > in each day. Often I would reply to comments but by the
                > > time I read the letters someone has usually said
                > > exactly what I would already so there does not seem
                > > much point repeating it.


                I sort of think of groups the way I think about the newspaper - I like to
                read it every day, but sometimes I don't, so I don't! I don't think of
                this as being a part of a group where it's a matter of staying or leaving,
                belonging or not belonging. It's more like reading "Letters to the
                Editor" in the newspaper.

                One "disadvantage" of groups is the repetition - there are only so many
                things that can be said about anything, and they've all been said but
                they're often lost in the archives.

                I was just flipping thru a nearby box, to see if I could find any of the
                old slogans - this box happened to have a lot of old Mystic Worlds,
                handouts, odds & ends, many with little post-its & notes, and quite a bit
                of stuff that quite possibly hasn't been written about much on the
                internet. I feel that my time would be better spent getting moving on
                the website than doing the "broken record" routine here. I'm glad when
                others comment, but you're *so* right about repeating the same thing.
                Although it often helps people to see there's a general consensus about
                something.

                You know, I hope you're able to help your friends through the rough spots.
                If they didn't know you personally, I wonder how they would have felt
                about the "Judas" comment? You know, it's quite possible they would have
                accepted it with all sorts of seriousness, and it wouldn't have bothered
                them at all! Just try not to take it personally, although I know it can
                hurt - the thing is, although we were very sincere and deeply personal in
                our feelings about our "master", basically I think Klemp just sees the
                members not as people, but as objects to serve *his* purposes and needs.

                Well, I have to move along here!

                Hugs,

                Sharon
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