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Re: Lillia's story (someone else's thoughts)

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  • brighttigress@yahoo.com
    Got this one privately this morning, and I think it s worth posting here. ... Did you read what I wrote about experiencing both a compulsion and an obsession
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 26, 2005
      Got this one privately this morning, and I think it's worth posting here.

      -----------------------------------------

      Did you read what I wrote about
      experiencing both
      a compulsion and an obsession simultaneously? You're wrong,
      Sandra's
      wrong, Colleen's wrong. This in NOT a "cult" thing and this is
      NOT this
      guy's choice. He's in deep shit with an compulsive-obsessive
      disorder,
      a compulsive-obsessive experience he can't control and he can't
      deal
      with and he needs INTERVENTION. You're right and Paul (Sword) is
      right.
      The cult doesn't want this shit and doesn't want people doing
      this
      shit. And I know it's natural for women on to rally around the
      family,
      daughter, and wife but what kind of person is this other woman?
      Does
      she know all this? What kind of a low life home-wrecking crazy
      must she
      be? Someone has to get in touch with Lillia's Dad's RESA And
      this other
      woman's RESA too. I've got the current list that just came out
      if you
      need names. Also, I wouldn't just call the ECK Center, I'd call
      Chanhassen and say I wanted to speak to an ESA right there on
      the phone
      right then. Shit rolls down hill much faster. You can bet your
      ass both
      RESAs would hear about it quick enough. Also, do you have
      Eckankar's
      new address and phone numbers (for Lillia)?

      ECKANKAR
      PO Box 2000
      Chanhassen, MN 55317-2000

      main # (952) 380-2200
      fax # (952) 380-2295
      membership services # (952) 380-2222

      This is about a compulsive-obsessive disorder brought on by
      years of
      dreaming and fantasizing and then suddenly seeing who he'd been
      dreaming and fantasizing about for real which triggered it.
      It's
      really not time for name calling, finger pointing, tut-tutting,
      or
      blame laying. This is time for focus on the real, active
      affliction
      here and intervening, cutting through its process.

      And if you want to post this, if you think that'd help, go for
      it!

      --------------------------------------------------

      Well, I thought this one was great!

      And I don't mean to "defend" myself here - I agree it's not the time for
      blame-laying, etc. BUT I feel my "job" is tying in all the individual-
      level problems and showing how the cult *is* responsible for things like
      this. That's how I started out "detracting", actually. When someone at
      a.r.e. brought up Joe Sykes, who both current & former members tend to
      just blow off as "nuts" or "unbalanced" or whatever. As an eckist, I
      thought that was too easy - this guy was *not* much different from me or
      anyone else, we believed, we trusted, we did our best to be good eckists.
      What happened to him, where was "the master", how could this happen to
      someone? As a former member, I felt the same way. So I looked deeper,
      and it was obvious that the "teachings" were a major factor in this sad
      story. I remembered an early Satsang, we were probably studying the
      Klemp "black magic" discourse which probably actually pertained to Darwin
      Gross although at that time even mentioning Gross's name was a no-no but I
      didn't know that. Anyway, I was sort of surprised at how superstitious
      and even fearful the other members of the group were, like one woman whose
      child had been given a little doll or something by a stranger in a diner
      or something, and she was convinced this woman was some kind of witch,
      maybe even working out past-life stuff, and this doll was evil or
      something, and had to be destroyed and they had to do all those silly
      "protection rituals".

      Although it's true that every "case" has a lot of unique & individual
      variables and quite often you can't really "blame" the cult, in the bigger
      picture the cult is generally either directly & strongly responsible for
      these tragic stories, or at least influences them.

      For example, lots of middle-aged men go through that male menopause thing.
      A non-eckist might start out noticing an attractive co-worker, and might
      end up a bit obsessed, maybe even start an affair - but although they can
      use that "my wife doesn't understand me" or just as often, not enough sex,
      they can just as often recognize that people are human and we all at least
      look, often even fantasize, there's a certain line they won't cross, out
      of love for their families, and honoring their marriage vows.

      With Lillia's father, if he weren't an eckist, it's quite likely that none
      of this would have happened, or at the very least, never have gone as far
      as it did.

      And in all fairness, I'll write a bit, thoughts I've expressed a bit to
      Lillia privately about her dad. You know, he's probably the biggest
      victim of them all, and the one most hurt by all of this. What's going to
      happen to this poor man once that exciting "honeymoon" falling-in-love
      phase is over, and reality hits? Yeah, I've thought about this a lot -
      either he's going to have to go into deeper denial & think up more
      mystical rationalizations in order to live with himself, or he won't be
      able to do that, and he'll be hit right in the face with the reality of
      how much damage has been done, and there's no fixing it. I can't even
      begin to imagine how horrible he's going to feel, and considering how he's
      handling this situation now, I don't think he's going to have an easy time
      living with himself. He's going to hurt *so* bad, because I think he's
      basically a very good and decent man. Now, if he'd simply been like most
      men and either had an affair or didn't, been able to keep it secret or
      not, and either way, either stayed with his family or left it for his
      lover, it's just all entirely different when the deepest and "sacred"
      parts of your heart and soul are involved. He'll have to either find a
      way to reconcile his spiritual beliefs and his belief in the cult and its
      "master" with the plain fact that they led him to making a *big* mistake,
      or he'll have to face the fact that perhaps there's something *very* wrong
      with e-kult and its "teachings", both its "inner" and "outer". He'll end
      up either blaming himself for "not getting it" or whatever, or he'll have
      to face the fact that he believed in a bunch of b.s., and go through the
      whole waking-up-and-recovering process on top of all the other stress &
      stuff he's been through, through the whole breakup. Because you *know*
      he's feeling pretty bad about hurting his family, even though he truly
      believes he's doing the right thing for himself spiritually.

      I hope this all leads somehow to the cult really taking a deeper look at
      those convoluted "teachings" and the many people who have been hurt, and
      straightening out its act a bit, and taking proper responsibility for its
      part in so many sad stories. They need to take a good honest look at
      themselves, and straighten out the cult's act.

      Hugs,

      Sharon
    • Wonder Woman
      I feel like my balloon has been deflated. I called the Eckankar center today and the Spiritual Advice lady did not help me. All I got was Well your father
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 26, 2005
        I feel like my balloon has been deflated.  I called the Eckankar center today and the "Spiritual Advice" lady did not help me.  All I got was "Well your father is an adult"  But she did connect me to our area's RESA.  I spoke to him and he knows my father.  Even though he understood me and what we are going through.... he won't do anything.  I was told by him that "Eckist have freedom of will and that he cannot intervene, but if my dad called him then they could talk".  Oh and the RESA knows my dad.  He thinks highly of my dad.... but didn't seem too concerned about my dads state of mind.  Or about my dad's obssession with this "other woman"  Maybe "not concerned" isn't the term I mean.. he didn't seem...bothered.  Would that sound right?  He said he understood what we were going through and sympathized with us.  I guess I was just disappointed.  I mean this RESA was very nice and understanding but why won't he step up and grab the bull by the horns??  Why won't he call my dad and ask to speak to him.  He isn't telling my dad what to do, but if his family has concerns isn't it up to this man to speak to my dad.  Isn't that why they are a spiritual aid?  Does my dad have to do something drastic for someone to help?  My dad is not thinking straight... my dad is not in the "right state of mind"  I feel like all these doors are closing and no one will "interven" or help us. 
        I want to call this other woman.. but then what, she won't care. 
        If anyone else has been through this or has more ideas.. I will keep trying what ever I have to do.  I appreciate everyone's input, thoughts, and concerns.  Please keep them coming.  I need to hear from people who have been there.  That there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
         
        God bless,
        Lillia

        brighttigress@... wrote:


        Got this one privately this morning, and I think it's worth posting here.

        -----------------------------------------

           Did you read what I wrote about
        experiencing both
        a compulsion and an obsession simultaneously? You're wrong,
        Sandra's
        wrong, Colleen's wrong. This in NOT a "cult" thing and this is
        NOT this
        guy's choice. He's in deep shit with an compulsive-obsessive
        disorder,
        a compulsive-obsessive experience he can't control and he can't
        deal
        with and he needs INTERVENTION. You're right and Paul (Sword) is
        right.
        The cult doesn't want this shit and doesn't want people doing
        this
        shit. And I know it's natural for women on to rally around the
        family,
        daughter, and wife but what kind of person is this other woman?
        Does
        she know all this? What kind of a low life home-wrecking crazy
        must she
        be? Someone has to get in touch with Lillia's Dad's RESA And
        this other
        woman's RESA too. I've got the current list that just came out
        if you
        need names. Also, I wouldn't just call the ECK Center, I'd call
        Chanhassen and say I wanted to speak to an ESA right there on
        the phone
        right then. Shit rolls down hill much faster. You can bet your
        ass both
        RESAs would hear about it quick enough. Also, do you have
        Eckankar's
        new address and phone numbers (for Lillia)?

        ECKANKAR
        PO Box 2000
        Chanhassen, MN 55317-2000

        main # (952) 380-2200
        fax # (952) 380-2295
        membership services # (952) 380-2222

        This is about a compulsive-obsessive disorder brought on by
        years of
        dreaming and fantasizing and then suddenly seeing who he'd been
        dreaming and fantasizing about for real which triggered it. 
        It's
        really not time for name calling, finger pointing, tut-tutting,
        or
        blame laying. This is time for focus on the real, active
        affliction
        here and intervening, cutting through its process.

        And if you want to post this, if you think that'd help, go for
        it!

        --------------------------------------------------

        Well, I thought this one was great!  

        And I don't mean to "defend" myself here - I agree it's not the time for
        blame-laying, etc.  BUT I feel my "job" is tying in all the individual-
        level problems and showing how the cult *is* responsible for things like
        this.  That's how I started out "detracting", actually.  When someone at
        a.r.e. brought up Joe Sykes, who both current & former members tend to
        just blow off as "nuts" or "unbalanced" or whatever.  As an eckist, I
        thought that was too easy - this guy was *not* much different from me or
        anyone else, we believed, we trusted, we did our best to be good eckists.
        What happened to him, where was "the master", how could this happen to
        someone?  As a former member, I felt the same way.  So I looked deeper,
        and it was obvious that the "teachings" were a major factor in this sad
        story.   I remembered an early Satsang, we were probably studying the
        Klemp "black magic" discourse which probably actually pertained to Darwin
        Gross although at that time even mentioning Gross's name was a no-no but I
        didn't know that.  Anyway, I was sort of surprised at how superstitious
        and even fearful the other members of the group were, like one woman whose
        child had been given a little doll or something by a stranger in a diner
        or something, and she was convinced this woman was some kind of witch,
        maybe even working out past-life stuff, and this doll was evil or
        something, and had to be destroyed and they had to do all those silly
        "protection rituals".  

        Although it's true that every "case" has a lot of unique & individual
        variables and quite often you can't really "blame" the cult, in the bigger
        picture the cult is generally either directly & strongly responsible for
        these tragic stories, or at least influences them.  

        For example, lots of middle-aged men go through that male menopause thing.
        A non-eckist might start out noticing an attractive co-worker, and might
        end up a bit obsessed, maybe even start an affair - but although they can
        use that "my wife doesn't understand me" or just as often, not enough sex,
        they can just as often recognize that people are human and we all at least
        look, often even fantasize, there's a certain line they won't cross, out
        of love for their families, and honoring their marriage vows. 

        With Lillia's father, if he weren't an eckist, it's quite likely that none
        of this would have happened, or at the very least, never have gone as far
        as it did. 

        And in all fairness, I'll write a bit, thoughts I've expressed a bit to
        Lillia privately about her dad.  You know, he's probably the biggest
        victim of them all, and the one most hurt by all of this.  What's going to
        happen to this poor man once that exciting "honeymoon" falling-in-love
        phase is over, and reality hits?  Yeah, I've thought about this a lot -
        either he's going to have to go into deeper denial & think up more
        mystical rationalizations in order to live with himself, or he won't be
        able to do that, and he'll be hit right in the face with the reality of
        how much damage has been done, and there's no fixing it.  I can't even
        begin to imagine how horrible he's going to feel, and considering how he's
        handling this situation now, I don't think he's going to have an easy time
        living with himself.  He's going to hurt *so* bad, because I think he's
        basically a very good and decent man.   Now, if he'd simply been like most
        men and either had an affair or didn't, been able to keep it secret or
        not, and either way, either stayed with his family or left it for his
        lover, it's just all entirely different when the deepest and "sacred"
        parts of your heart and soul are involved.   He'll have to either find a
        way to reconcile his spiritual beliefs and his belief in the cult and its
        "master" with the plain fact that they led him to making a *big* mistake,
        or he'll have to face the fact that perhaps there's something *very* wrong
        with e-kult and its "teachings", both its "inner" and "outer".  He'll end
        up either blaming himself for "not getting it" or whatever, or he'll have
        to face the fact that he believed in a bunch of b.s., and go through the
        whole waking-up-and-recovering process on top of all the other stress &
        stuff he's been through, through the whole breakup.  Because you *know*
        he's feeling pretty bad about hurting his family, even though he truly
        believes he's doing the right thing for himself spiritually.

        I hope this all leads somehow to the cult really taking a deeper look at
        those convoluted "teachings" and the many people who have been hurt, and
        straightening out its act a bit, and taking proper responsibility for its
        part in so many sad stories.  They need to take a good honest look at
        themselves, and straighten out the cult's act. 

        Hugs,

        Sharon




                       




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      • Elizabeth
        Lillia, I seriously would recommend checking with a local health clinic, or counseling service to see what your area offers in the way of assistance with this
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 26, 2005
          Lillia,
           
          I seriously would recommend checking with a local health clinic, or counseling service to see what your area offers in the way of assistance with this sort of matter.  Maybe Colleen Russell (from this group) would be better able to advise you of who to be talking to in regards to cult issues and mid-life crisis intervention.   Have you tried speaking with her off list? 
           
          I really think at this point, your mom needs to confront this issue with your dad head on....
           
          My ex husband had an affair while I was pregnant, and continued with it after my daughter was born.  I allowed him to control the nasty situation, and enabled him to continue in the affair by not kicking his ass out!   If your dad wants a relationship with this other women, yet is waiting until Aug. to move out, and although your mom is obviously in distress over this,  She would be wise to contact a lawyer for advice NOW!   Consultations usually don't cost anything!   Maybe you could take her to one,  just to get an idea of what your mom's options are?  And why is your dad sitting around until Aug.?    I don't recall if you ever mentioned his reason.   Needless to say, I understand your fear and urgency in this situation....  but your dad is an adult as the RESA states!    I would focus on your mother right now, and get her the information she needs, to protect her 35 years invested in this marriage!   
          Elizabeth   
           

          Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@...> wrote:
          I feel like my balloon has been deflated.  I called the Eckankar center today and the "Spiritual Advice" lady did not help me.  All I got was "Well your father is an adult"  But she did connect me to our area's RESA.  I spoke to him and he knows my father.  Even though he understood me and what we are going through.... he won't do anything.  I was told by him that "Eckist have freedom of will and that he cannot intervene, but if my dad called him then they could talk". 
          <snip>
          I will keep trying what ever I have to do.  I appreciate everyone's input, thoughts, and concerns.  Please keep them coming.  I need to hear from people who have been there.  That there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
           
          God bless,
          Lillia
        • colleen
          Regarding the private email you passed on here, Sharon, I don t know how anyone could be absolutely certain of a right reason and/or diagnosis, given the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 27, 2005
            Regarding the "private" email you passed on here,
            Sharon, I don't know how anyone could be absolutely
            certain of a "right" reason and/or diagnosis, given
            the information provided. And who is this person who
            dares to give a diagnosis online?

            I also note from the writing a bit of anger....and
            judgement about who is "right" and "wrong".

            Interesting that this person send a "private" to you
            rather than directly to the group.

            Colleen

            --- brighttigress@... wrote:

            >
            >
            > Got this one privately this morning, and I think
            > it's worth posting here.
            >
            > -----------------------------------------
            >
            > Did you read what I wrote about
            > experiencing both
            > a compulsion and an obsession simultaneously? You're
            > wrong,
            > Sandra's
            > wrong, Colleen's wrong. This in NOT a "cult" thing
            > and this is
            > NOT this
            > guy's choice. He's in deep shit with an
            > compulsive-obsessive
            > disorder,
            > a compulsive-obsessive experience he can't control
            > and he can't
            > deal
            > with and he needs INTERVENTION. You're right and
            > Paul (Sword) is
            > right.
            > The cult doesn't want this shit and doesn't want
            > people doing
            > this
            > shit. And I know it's natural for women on to rally
            > around the
            > family,
            > daughter, and wife but what kind of person is this
            > other woman?
            > Does
            > she know all this? What kind of a low life
            > home-wrecking crazy
            > must she
            > be? Someone has to get in touch with Lillia's Dad's
            > RESA And
            > this other
            > woman's RESA too. I've got the current list that
            > just came out
            > if you
            > need names. Also, I wouldn't just call the ECK
            > Center, I'd call
            > Chanhassen and say I wanted to speak to an ESA right
            > there on
            > the phone
            > right then. Shit rolls down hill much faster. You
            > can bet your
            > ass both
            > RESAs would hear about it quick enough. Also, do you
            > have
            > Eckankar's
            > new address and phone numbers (for Lillia)?
            >
            > ECKANKAR
            > PO Box 2000
            > Chanhassen, MN 55317-2000
            >
            > main # (952) 380-2200
            > fax # (952) 380-2295
            > membership services # (952) 380-2222
            >
            > This is about a compulsive-obsessive disorder
            > brought on by
            > years of
            > dreaming and fantasizing and then suddenly seeing
            > who he'd been
            > dreaming and fantasizing about for real which
            > triggered it.
            > It's
            > really not time for name calling, finger pointing,
            > tut-tutting,
            > or
            > blame laying. This is time for focus on the real,
            > active
            > affliction
            > here and intervening, cutting through its process.
            >
            > And if you want to post this, if you think that'd
            > help, go for
            > it!
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------
            >
            > Well, I thought this one was great!
            >
            > And I don't mean to "defend" myself here - I agree
            > it's not the time for
            > blame-laying, etc. BUT I feel my "job" is tying in
            > all the individual-
            > level problems and showing how the cult *is*
            > responsible for things like
            > this. That's how I started out "detracting",
            > actually. When someone at
            > a.r.e. brought up Joe Sykes, who both current &
            > former members tend to
            > just blow off as "nuts" or "unbalanced" or whatever.
            > As an eckist, I
            > thought that was too easy - this guy was *not* much
            > different from me or
            > anyone else, we believed, we trusted, we did our
            > best to be good eckists.
            > What happened to him, where was "the master", how
            > could this happen to
            > someone? As a former member, I felt the same way.
            > So I looked deeper,
            > and it was obvious that the "teachings" were a major
            > factor in this sad
            > story. I remembered an early Satsang, we were
            > probably studying the
            > Klemp "black magic" discourse which probably
            > actually pertained to Darwin
            > Gross although at that time even mentioning Gross's
            > name was a no-no but I
            > didn't know that. Anyway, I was sort of surprised
            > at how superstitious
            > and even fearful the other members of the group
            > were, like one woman whose
            > child had been given a little doll or something by a
            > stranger in a diner
            > or something, and she was convinced this woman was
            > some kind of witch,
            > maybe even working out past-life stuff, and this
            > doll was evil or
            > something, and had to be destroyed and they had to
            > do all those silly
            > "protection rituals".
            >
            > Although it's true that every "case" has a lot of
            > unique & individual
            > variables and quite often you can't really "blame"
            > the cult, in the bigger
            > picture the cult is generally either directly &
            > strongly responsible for
            > these tragic stories, or at least influences them.
            >
            >
            > For example, lots of middle-aged men go through that
            > male menopause thing.
            > A non-eckist might start out noticing an attractive
            > co-worker, and might
            > end up a bit obsessed, maybe even start an affair -
            > but although they can
            > use that "my wife doesn't understand me" or just as
            > often, not enough sex,
            > they can just as often recognize that people are
            > human and we all at least
            > look, often even fantasize, there's a certain line
            > they won't cross, out
            > of love for their families, and honoring their
            > marriage vows.
            >
            > With Lillia's father, if he weren't an eckist, it's
            > quite likely that none
            > of this would have happened, or at the very least,
            > never have gone as far
            > as it did.
            >
            > And in all fairness, I'll write a bit, thoughts I've
            > expressed a bit to
            > Lillia privately about her dad. You know, he's
            > probably the biggest
            > victim of them all, and the one most hurt by all of
            > this. What's going to
            > happen to this poor man once that exciting
            > "honeymoon" falling-in-love
            > phase is over, and reality hits? Yeah, I've thought
            > about this a lot -
            > either he's going to have to go into deeper denial &
            > think up more
            > mystical rationalizations in order to live with
            > himself, or he won't be
            > able to do that, and he'll be hit right in the face
            > with the reality of
            > how much damage has been done, and there's no fixing
            > it. I can't even
            > begin to imagine how horrible he's going to feel,
            > and considering how he's
            > handling this situation now, I don't think he's
            > going to have an easy time
            > living with himself. He's going to hurt *so* bad,
            > because I think he's
            > basically a very good and decent man. Now, if he'd
            > simply been like most
            > men and either had an affair or didn't, been able to
            > keep it secret or
            > not, and either way, either stayed with his family
            > or left it for his
            > lover, it's just all entirely different when the
            > deepest and "sacred"
            > parts of your heart and soul are involved. He'll
            > have to either find a
            > way to reconcile his spiritual beliefs and his
            > belief in the cult and its
            > "master" with the plain fact that they led him to
            > making a *big* mistake,
            > or he'll have to face the fact that perhaps there's
            > something *very* wrong
            > with e-kult and its "teachings", both its "inner"
            > and "outer". He'll end
            >
            === message truncated ===


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          • brighttigress@yahoo.com
            ... Chill, Colleen!! You know, it s great the way you re so conscious of the line between personal & professional and so careful not to cross the lines
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 28, 2005
              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, colleen <colleenmft@y...> wrote:
              > Regarding the "private" email you passed on here,
              > Sharon, I don't know how anyone could be absolutely
              > certain of a "right" reason and/or diagnosis, given
              > the information provided. And who is this person who
              > dares to give a diagnosis online?
              >

              Chill, Colleen!! You know, it's great the way you're so conscious of the
              line between personal & professional and so careful not to cross the lines
              between Colleen the licensed therapist and Colleen the former cult member
              who happens to be a licensed therapist and therefore knows a lot of good
              stuff about the whole cult thing, and can understand & talk about it all
              in "professional" terms or whatever. You know, like everyone else'll talk
              about it in one way, but you can talk about the issues in "professional"
              terms, and you're also familiar with a lot of good experts & articles &
              stuff. But the problem is, all the nastiness from the eckthugs & Fordji -
              like, as a former member, you're supposed to "turn off" anything you've
              learned as a professional - so I understand why you're a bit concerned
              about this particular person's opinions.

              Anyway, I guess maybe I should have mentioned the person who wrote that is
              *not* a professional in the mental health field. It's just a person
              expressing their opinion, and many people pick up a lot of "psychological"
              stuff in life, heck, it's all over - self-help books, magazines, TV, etc.
              I don't think anyone really took the opinion expressed as a "diagnosis",
              really. I thought it was a very interesting thought that made a lot of
              sense. We non-professionals really don't think anything when other non-
              professionals make observations like that.

              Say you know someone who's got 30 cats in the house and they're washing
              their hands so much that they're cracked and bleeding, I think it's safe
              to say their behavior is a bit obsessive-compulsive. Or if someone's
              visiting somewhere and keeps telling their host that "they" are out there
              in the bushes hiding, and would the host please let the dog out to chase
              them away...that's obviously paranoia. I think the details Lillia gave
              were enough to suggest the possibility of at least a touch of obsessive-
              compulsive behavior. But really, when you think about it, isn't that a
              "normal" part of falling in love? Maybe moreso with teenagers. I'd say a
              53-year-old man who runs up $1,000 in cell phone calls to the girlfriend
              has a bit of a problem, unless he's Donald Trump. That's something teens
              are more likely to do. <gg>

              Lillia's father started out doing the spex, etc., started dreaming about a
              woman, this was fun, and it's not hard to see he could have gotten carried
              away with it, a tad bit obsessed & addicted even. Heck, I think remember
              reading in the cult's "teachings" that people can get carried away with
              the "spex" and that leads to "unbalance" in "real life". Let's face it,
              those "dream worlds" can be a lot more fun than real life, can't they?
              Geez, when I was in the cult, I had more of a problem *not* doing the spex
              than doing them - I liked the eckbuzz! Oh, wow, the colors!!! <gg>

              Anyway, Colleen, my mind was just floating around thinking about the
              difficulty between separating personal & professional - a few years back
              my daughter & I were standing in line at the grocery store. She's a
              nurse. Nodding towards the woman who was checking out, my daughter
              whispered "That woman's got great veins!" Well, I thought this was sort
              of hilarious, but just for the heck of it, ever since, I always ask the
              technician or nurse when I'm getting blood drawn if they look at people's
              veins while standing in the check-out line - and they *all* do it!!

              Okay, but just for the record - all the opinions expressed here are just
              opinions, and everyone's welcome to take them or leave them, but don't
              take them as absolute "truth" or whatever.


              > I also note from the writing a bit of anger....and
              > judgement about who is "right" and "wrong".
              >

              I didn't notice <oh horrors!!> that dreaded & forbidden "anger". I saw
              someone expressing some natural feelings about a situation, empathizing
              with this family and Lillia's frustration.

              You know, it occurred to me that some people might get "angry" about
              Lillia's feelings about this. Like...okay, let's use Klemp & Kunin for
              example. I'm sure they'd have different feelings about this, since they
              both dumped their families for the new lovers they were carrying on with
              while they were still married.

              We're not in the cult anymore. We're *allowed* to feel normal human
              emotions, and make judgments about what's right and wrong. And it's a
              good thing. Hey, there are already enough problems in the world, and the
              *last* thing we need is a bunch of silly grinning new-agey cultpuppies all
              spaced out on luuuuuuuv while a bunch of scumbags run rampant, committing
              all sorts of crimes and atrocities.

              Let me use another example here from my private files. An eckist molested
              his stepchildren, served a short time in jail for one of them but the
              other wasn't able to talk about it until later. He gets out of jail, and
              is welcomed back into the "eck community" with open arms, and even the
              children's mother expects the molested children to treat their molester as
              a "friend" as she does (they *did* break up) - I mean, who knows what
              karma was involved there that could only be balanced by molesting?
              There's something *wrong* if you don't get angry about things like this,
              and make judgments!!


              > Interesting that this person send a "private" to you
              > rather than directly to the group.
              >

              <giggle> Well, I think I bitch quite openly about my email, so I wouldn't
              exactly call it "interesting". The *real* group "action" is usually in my
              inbox! <gg> That's one of the reasons I started ET - to try to cut down
              on it. A lot of people just aren't comfortable posting in public - and I
              looked at this one as just some thoughts tossed in while we were yakking
              about other things. Sort of like I'll be writing an email and go off on a
              tangent about my pets, the weather, or whatever I happen to be thinking
              about or doing while I'm writing. It's not a big deal. I'll often be
              writing something "personal" and then think gee, you know, this might be
              more helpful as a public post. But more often than not, I just don't feel
              like typing it over again.

              Amyway - while I think of it, I want to go back to that handbook you
              recommended that I don't remember hearing of before, and put it on my book
              list. Which reminds me once again of the Deikman (??) book you & others
              have mentioned. I've been really good about not buying books for a long
              time, but there are a few that would be helpful while I'm working on the
              new website.

              And good grief, it's Friday again! Where *does* the week go?

              Hugs,

              Sharon
            • brighttigress@yahoo.com
              ... You know, I feel a bit bad that you were really hoping that an official cult representative would think there s something wrong with this situation. I
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 28, 2005
                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@y...>
                wrote:
                > I feel like my balloon has been deflated.

                You know, I feel a bit bad that you were really hoping that an official
                cult representative would think there's something "wrong" with this
                situation. I guess I didn't really talk a lot about how eckists were
                probably going to look at this situation, and the cult's "teachings" on
                non-interference, non-judging, etc.

                The cult "teaches" a lot about the importance of not getting involved in
                someone's karma, which can happen even with a little thing like having an
                opinion about something. One example I can think of that an eckist
                mentioned awhile back, someone fell down some steps and was just laying
                there crying for someone to call 911, but the eckist who was there refused
                to call for fear of taking on karma. And another one, about an elderly
                eckist who slipped and fell after an eckthing and broke her hip - the
                other eckists could only wonder what karma was involved there, and
                couldn't really express any feelings because the cult teaches we choose
                everything that happens to us - unless it's one of those karma-things "the
                master" decides we can't work out in the dream state and need to do it in
                real life whether we like it or not. <gg> In the cult, there are no
                accidents.

                The thing is, most eckists will *not* be at all bothered or concerned
                about what your father's doing. Most of them will probably be on his
                side, and honor his dreams, etc., and agree that his karma with his family
                is probably worked out, so he's free to find true spiritual fulfillment
                and be able to grow spiritually with this new woman.

                They might talk the talk about putting the family first, and love, and
                personal responsibility, and Maybury's Laws and all that - but their
                "walk" is an entirely different thing.

                The only thing I thought the cult might "officially" object to was your
                father quitting his job to be a full-time eckmissionary. That's something
                that's definitely addressed in the "teachings", that people are supposed
                to be "responsible" and hold down a job. How else will they be able to
                pay for their memberships, books, seminars, jewelry, posters, etc.?

                Although this *is* the "Year of the Missionary" (or Vahana, I'm not sure
                what word they're using "officially"), cult members are supposed to use
                their own money & resources. In fact, cult members even have to buy the
                posters, press kids, promotional brochures, etc., that they use to hand
                out in public. Seems to me they have to pay if they want any "newbie
                freebie" books, too - my old cult catalog is in a box. People can get the
                book free by calling, but eckists who want to hand them out have to pay
                for them, I'm 99% sure. If they were free, I'd have sent for some to
                hand out. And the cult doesn't even provide books to be placed in
                libraries or sent overseas or whatever - cult members are asked to
                "donate" them.

                I'm really sorry if I encouraged you to get in touch with MN and had you
                thinking they might help, because I was pretty sure they'd respond as they
                did. I guess I was just thinking at least you'd try, and then you'd see
                how the cult thinks & acts, and at least other people would learn
                something too. And although the cult wouldn't really help, at least
                they'd know that they'd better have Klemp remind eckists that he doesn't
                want them quitting their jobs and leaving their families, etc., or
                something.

                I mean, he *did* write a Mystic World members-only letter telling them to
                cut down on screwing around at seminars because it gave potential new
                members a bad impression! He's said the same thing about drinking - cult
                members aren't really supposed to drink, but if they do, they should do it
                behind closed doors. There's a *lot* in the "teachings" that shows the
                cult is more concerned about public image than anything else.

                It's like the "Arahata Book" - arahata is a "teacher", BTW. I think it's
                pretty funny that it tells people to wash & use deodorant & clean clothes
                before arahata-ing. <gg> Duh. You'd think "chosen people" who've been
                through all those incarnations and earned the privilege of being eckists,
                co-workers & all, well....I think basic hygiene would be a "given",
                wouldn't you?

                If your family were eckists too, and asked for help with this, perhaps
                they'd have given it a bit of attention, who knows? I mean, what would
                happen if your mother were an eckist and said that *her* dreams had shown
                this woman as an evil tramp who was pursuing her husband on those higher
                planes, interfering with his commitment to his family, etc., and that Wah
                Z had turned up in one of them, driving off the evil tramp with the
                blazing Sword of the SUGMAD? In that case, who knows? Maybe the cult
                would say okay, conflicting "messages from the mahanta" here, maybe this
                is a *lesson* for dear old dad, one where he's supposed to see through the
                illusion and realize this dream woman is maybe like one of them thar
                darned pesky black magicians who show up in dreams disguised as eckmasters
                and even kill people in their sleep? I remember one story where these
                bad guys were trying to convince someone to jump off a dream-cliff or
                something.

                Of course, the cult "teaches" that membership includes the "protection" of
                "the mahanta" from stuff like this - but Graham Forsyth & Fordji are
                probably the most "public" examples of members who did all the "right
                things" to be sure their "inner" was reliable. And Klemp has mentioned
                that a lot of eckists will get "messages" telling them they're going to be
                the next LEM.

                This is the thing - there is *no way* cult members can *really* be sure
                about anything "on the inner". If it's something that's favorable to &
                supportive of the cult, it's "good". And that's about it.

                Eckists perceive non-eckists as "lower", not "ready" for the "high" so-
                called "teachings", etc. I'm not the only one who as a member, often
                thought non-eckists just weren't capable of understanding various things -
                and I heard other eckists say things like "They're not eckists; what do
                *they* know?"

                In fact, I'll give the example of one time where an HI made this comment,
                it's a good example of "eckthink". I was personally disturbed that this
                HI used her workplace for more eckstuff than "work" duties, not just time,
                but resources & materials. I thought it wasn't really ethical, and I was
                also a bit disturbed because her co-workers were not happy with her and it
                gave them a bad impression of the cult, too. So, I'm a pretty
                straightforward person, my feelings bothered me and I wanted to work them
                out, so I discussed this with the HI. Basically, she had no problem and
                actually thought the opportunity to use her job for cultstuff was a gift
                from Suggie, and anyway, if her co-workers pushed it, she had union
                protection.

                You know, I don't think it's a big deal when our "office" pens end up at
                home - I'm just as likely to use my "personal" pens on the job, especially
                if the job buys those round Bic stick-pens that for some reason I just do
                *not* like! Most jobs don't really have a problem with stuff like this,
                like personal phone calls, photocopies, etc., within reason. In fact,
                I'm remembering once over at a.r.e. when the eckthugs tracked someone's
                headers & found they were posting from a school account and this person
                was threatened about being reported to their employer for mis-use of
                company time & resources, without even knowing any details other than the
                obviously educational email address - which by the way, didn't necessarily
                mean anything. My first ISP was a local non-profit ISP which at first
                used a sort of long "educational" address, don't remember it exactly but
                it was kind like like "us.pa.k12.edu" or something - if I (or anyone else
                using my ISP) had posted with that as a "detractor", no doubt the eckthugs
                would assume I was a school district employee. Anyway, even if I *was* a
                school employee, I read my grandkids' school district's internet policy
                handbook, and teachers and employees *are* permitted to use the internet
                for personal reasons, within reason, during work hours. And I'm familiar
                with a lot of other jobs with basically the same policy.

                Anyway, Lillia, I've really tried to be sort of "balanced" about this,
                and while I too would love to see a miracle because they *do* happen, I
                just hope I was also able to let you know I wasn't really too hopeful. On
                the other hand, being hurt is part of life, isn't it? I just hate to see
                it happen to people. And you know, I'm just thinking back, and I think I
                might have missed writing something to you that I generally suggest to
                most concerned friends & family members - I've always found the "Serenity
                Prayer" very helpful. You know, "God grant us the serenity to accept the
                things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can,
                and wisdom to know the difference."

                It's perfectly natural for you and your family to be traumatized by all of
                this, but especially for *your* children and your mother, well...sometimes
                we've gotta do our best to not totally fall apart. Or at least recognize
                that while falling apart is often quite appropriate at least for a short
                time, we *do* need to sort of keep it under control and move towards
                "recovery". I'm sure you're doing this.

                Let me use another personal example here - a late Aunt who was in a
                Siberian concentration camp in WWII when she was 14. She & an older man
                managed to escape and walk to France. So until the day she died, at
                family gatherings you could count on her moaning & groaning about the
                horrible world we live in, and that's why she always refused to have
                children. Okay, you can *never* totally get over bad experiences, but
                you don't need to spend the rest of your life *living* them, you know?

                Excuse me for getting a bit "preachy", but that's what I do. <gg>

                Oh, another thing that no one else seems to have mentioned that I'd like
                to see some other opinions on. I told Lillia privately that I thought her
                father should be the one to tell his grandchildren what's happening, not
                Lillia. And I think this is a matter of his accepting personal
                responsibility for his actions. Lillia, if you think that the kids
                haven't at least picked up on something "wrong" going on, you may be
                mistaken. But I really think, especially because you're the one who's
                going to have to comfort your son and minimize the damage, you should
                *not* be the one to explain your father's plans to him. Let him look in
                that little boy's eyes and tell him all that stuff about his dreams and
                messages from his "master", and how he's finished "serving time" with his
                family but now he's free for *real* love.

                And Colleen - you might be familiar with some "psychological principles"
                or something in this area, seems to me I've come across things about how
                especially if Mom's the one to break the bad news that she is *not*
                responsible for, the little boy might turn his anger & stuff on her, not
                where it belongs, on his beloved grandpop. And please don't feel that
                expressing your opinion on this would be inappropriate or that you'd be
                acting as a therapist. I'm laughing here, just thinking of "balance" and
                how I could probably write to that eckist German therapist who got in a
                tad bit of professional trouble for sort of pushing eckstuff on an
                unsuspecting patient, just to get a different opinion expressed. I think
                that story's in the "links" section here.

                Okay, marriages *do* break up, and you never know - Lillia's father might
                have ended up doing something like this even if he *wasn't* an eckist,
                except in that case, well...that's just sort of "normal". But Lillia's
                father's case is *not* "normal" because of all the years of dreams, and
                the whole wacky cult-thing, and the quite normal (for eckists) "seminar
                high" that's frequently mentioned in "the teachings". But...look at the
                details Lillia's told about her parents' marriage. There was no
                indication of serious trouble.

                It's not much different from some friends of mine - the wife accidentally
                found out about her husband's affair with his secretary at their son's
                wedding. She threw a drink in his face and kicked him out of the house,
                and the company transferred the secretary. But this guy was *not* an
                eckist and didn't think he was doing God's will or anything. Anyway, they
                ended up getting re-married five years later. He admitted he made a
                mistake. I think it's less likely that Lillia's dad is going to be able
                to admit he (or the "inner master") made a mistake, he's too caught up in
                realizing his fantasies. And when he comes back to earth, well...it's not
                going to be as simple to go back as it was for my friends. It's not that
                simple.

                Lots of possibilities here - like, I don't even know if it would be
                possible to have this man involuntarily committed or anything, even though
                many professionals might very well think he's temporarily insane or
                something. And that wouldn't help either, probably - no matter what kind
                of wacky stuff is going on inside an eckist, they're very good at
                maintaining the appearance of being "normal". Take Klemp, for instance,
                how he deliberately lied to the social workers & shrinks when he landed in
                the looney-bin because he was getting all those wacky "inner messages",
                including being told to start stripping at the airport.

                I, too, wonder - why the August deadline? Is he expecting your mother to
                pack his bags for him, and make sure all the buttons are sewn on his
                shirts, etc.? How would he feel if the situation were reversed?

                And here comes another story!! <gg> An old friend's wife left him & the
                kids (5 & 1 1/2) to take off with her new-age guru-lover and search for
                magic crystals in the Arizona desert, and when they came back would you
                believe she thought it would be wonderful for her & her lover to move into
                the family home. The husband made a good living, the guru didn't. <gg>
                Anyway, my friend was *totally* devastated - and by the way, although I
                took his "perfect husband" side of the story with a grain of salt in spite
                of the fact that he *did* seem totally perfect, I did take the time to ask
                this woman about it when I finally met her. And you know, she totally
                agreed that my friend *was* a perfect husband - the only time both parties
                told the same story! And I'm sorry if I offend anyone, because there are
                always exceptions, but I *do* think that quite often "new-age" people are
                quite selfish and all wrapped up in themselves and their own "spiritual
                growth", and often find "spiritual" rationalizations for doing what they
                feel like doing without any respect or consideration for who they hurt in
                the process. Love and personal responsibility only apply when it suits
                them.

                And I *do* think that it might help him to get his butt out of the family
                home *now*!!! Let him actually *experience* dumping the family, maybe
                being away *before* he runs off to spiritual-lover-lalaland might make him
                think a little bit. In his heart, he's already gone. And he wasn't
                *totally* there even before he met this woman - although it can be argued
                that he wasn't actually doing anything wrong by having an other-planes
                affair, well excuse me....but considering how the cult "teaches" that the
                "other planes" are even *more* real and important than the illusion we're
                supposedly living here on earth, the ashcan of the universe, I think he's
                just as "guilty" as he would've been if he was having a "real" affair with
                a "real" woman.

                Well, that's about all I have to say right now.

                Hugs,

                Sharon













                I called the Eckankar center today and the "Spiritual Advice" lady did not
                help me. All I got was "Well your father is an adult" But she did
                connect me to our area's RESA. I spoke to him and he knows my father.
                Even though he understood me and what we are going through.... he won't do
                anything. I was told by him that "Eckist have freedom of will and that he
                cannot intervene, but if my dad called him then they could talk". Oh and
                the RESA knows my dad. He thinks highly of my dad.... but didn't seem
                too concerned about my dads state of mind. Or about my dad's obssession
                with this "other woman" Maybe "not concerned" isn't the term I mean.. he
                didn't seem...bothered. Would that sound right? He said he understood
                what we were going through and sympathized with us. I guess I was just
                disappointed. I mean this RESA was very nice and understanding but why
                won't he step up and grab the bull by the horns?? Why won't he call my
                dad and
                > ask to speak to him. He isn't telling my dad what to do, but if his
                family has concerns isn't it up to this man to speak to my dad. Isn't
                that why they are a spiritual aid? Does my dad have to do something
                drastic for someone to help? My dad is not thinking straight... my dad is
                not in the "right state of mind" I feel like all these doors are closing
                and no one will "interven" or help us.
                > I want to call this other woman.. but then what, she won't care.
                > If anyone else has been through this or has more ideas.. I will keep
                trying what ever I have to do. I appreciate everyone's input, thoughts,
                and concerns. Please keep them coming. I need to hear from people who
                have been there. That there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
                >
                > God bless,
                > Lillia
                >
                > brighttigress@y... wrote:
                >
                >
                > Got this one privately this morning, and I think it's worth posting
                here.
                >
                > -----------------------------------------
                >
                > Did you read what I wrote about
                > experiencing both
                > a compulsion and an obsession simultaneously? You're wrong,
                > Sandra's
                > wrong, Colleen's wrong. This in NOT a "cult" thing and this is
                > NOT this
                > guy's choice. He's in deep shit with an compulsive-obsessive
                > disorder,
                > a compulsive-obsessive experience he can't control and he can't
                > deal
                > with and he needs INTERVENTION. You're right and Paul (Sword) is
                > right.
                > The cult doesn't want this shit and doesn't want people doing
                > this
                > shit. And I know it's natural for women on to rally around the
                > family,
                > daughter, and wife but what kind of person is this other woman?
                > Does
                > she know all this? What kind of a low life home-wrecking crazy
                > must she
                > be? Someone has to get in touch with Lillia's Dad's RESA And
                > this other
                > woman's RESA too. I've got the current list that just came out
                > if you
                > need names. Also, I wouldn't just call the ECK Center, I'd call
                > Chanhassen and say I wanted to speak to an ESA right there on
                > the phone
                > right then. Shit rolls down hill much faster. You can bet your
                > ass both
                > RESAs would hear about it quick enough. Also, do you have
                > Eckankar's
                > new address and phone numbers (for Lillia)?
                >
                > ECKANKAR
                > PO Box 2000
                > Chanhassen, MN 55317-2000
                >
                > main # (952) 380-2200
                > fax # (952) 380-2295
                > membership services # (952) 380-2222
                >
                > This is about a compulsive-obsessive disorder brought on by
                > years of
                > dreaming and fantasizing and then suddenly seeing who he'd been
                > dreaming and fantasizing about for real which triggered it.
                > It's
                > really not time for name calling, finger pointing, tut-tutting,
                > or
                > blame laying. This is time for focus on the real, active
                > affliction
                > here and intervening, cutting through its process.
                >
                > And if you want to post this, if you think that'd help, go for
                > it!
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------
                >
                > Well, I thought this one was great!
                >
                > And I don't mean to "defend" myself here - I agree it's not the time for
                > blame-laying, etc. BUT I feel my "job" is tying in all the individual-
                > level problems and showing how the cult *is* responsible for things like
                > this. That's how I started out "detracting", actually. When someone at
                > a.r.e. brought up Joe Sykes, who both current & former members tend to
                > just blow off as "nuts" or "unbalanced" or whatever. As an eckist, I
                > thought that was too easy - this guy was *not* much different from me or
                > anyone else, we believed, we trusted, we did our best to be good
                eckists.
                > What happened to him, where was "the master", how could this happen to
                > someone? As a former member, I felt the same way. So I looked deeper,
                > and it was obvious that the "teachings" were a major factor in this sad
                > story. I remembered an early Satsang, we were probably studying the
                > Klemp "black magic" discourse which probably actually pertained to
                Darwin
                > Gross although at that time even mentioning Gross's name was a no-no but
                I
                > didn't know that. Anyway, I was sort of surprised at how superstitious
                > and even fearful the other members of the group were, like one woman
                whose
                > child had been given a little doll or something by a stranger in a diner
                > or something, and she was convinced this woman was some kind of witch,
                > maybe even working out past-life stuff, and this doll was evil or
                > something, and had to be destroyed and they had to do all those silly
                > "protection rituals".
                >
                > Although it's true that every "case" has a lot of unique & individual
                > variables and quite often you can't really "blame" the cult, in the
                bigger
                > picture the cult is generally either directly & strongly responsible for
                > these tragic stories, or at least influences them.
                >
                > For example, lots of middle-aged men go through that male menopause
                thing.
                > A non-eckist might start out noticing an attractive co-worker, and might
                > end up a bit obsessed, maybe even start an affair - but although they
                can
                > use that "my wife doesn't understand me" or just as often, not enough
                sex,
                > they can just as often recognize that people are human and we all at
                least
                > look, often even fantasize, there's a certain line they won't cross, out
                > of love for their families, and honoring their marriage vows.
                >
                > With Lillia's father, if he weren't an eckist, it's quite likely that
                none
                > of this would have happened, or at the very least, never have gone as
                far
                > as it did.
                >
                > And in all fairness, I'll write a bit, thoughts I've expressed a bit to
                > Lillia privately about her dad. You know, he's probably the biggest
                > victim of them all, and the one most hurt by all of this. What's going
                to
                > happen to this poor man once that exciting "honeymoon" falling-in-love
                > phase is over, and reality hits? Yeah, I've thought about this a lot -
                > either he's going to have to go into deeper denial & think up more
                > mystical rationalizations in order to live with himself, or he won't be
                > able to do that, and he'll be hit right in the face with the reality of
                > how much damage has been done, and there's no fixing it. I can't even
                > begin to imagine how horrible he's going to feel, and considering how
                he's
                > handling this situation now, I don't think he's going to have an easy
                time
                > living with himself. He's going to hurt *so* bad, because I think he's
                > basically a very good and decent man. Now, if he'd simply been like
                most
                > men and either had an affair or didn't, been able to keep it secret or
                > not, and either way, either stayed with his family or left it for his
                > lover, it's just all entirely different when the deepest and "sacred"
                > parts of your heart and soul are involved. He'll have to either find a
                > way to reconcile his spiritual beliefs and his belief in the cult and
                its
                > "master" with the plain fact that they led him to making a *big*
                mistake,
                > or he'll have to face the fact that perhaps there's something *very*
                wrong
                > with e-kult and its "teachings", both its "inner" and "outer". He'll
                end
                > up either blaming himself for "not getting it" or whatever, or he'll
                have
                > to face the fact that he believed in a bunch of b.s., and go through the
                > whole waking-up-and-recovering process on top of all the other stress &
                > stuff he's been through, through the whole breakup. Because you *know*
                > he's feeling pretty bad about hurting his family, even though he truly
                > believes he's doing the right thing for himself spiritually.
                >
                > I hope this all leads somehow to the cult really taking a deeper look at
                > those convoluted "teachings" and the many people who have been hurt, and
                > straightening out its act a bit, and taking proper responsibility for
                its
                > part in so many sad stories. They need to take a good honest look at
                > themselves, and straighten out the cult's act.
                >
                > Hugs,
                >
                > Sharon
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
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                >
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              • Wonder Woman
                Happy Friday to all, I just feel like I am grasping at anything. Praying for a miracle. I don t know what to do or feel anymore. My mom is trying so hard to
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 28, 2005
                  Happy Friday to all,
                   
                  I just feel like I am grasping at anything.  Praying for a miracle.  I don't know what to do or feel anymore.  My mom is trying so hard to be strong.  But then she breaks down, especially since my dad is still living there at home!!!  He moved into a guest bedroom.  My older son did notice and asked me what was going on.  I told him my mom needed lots of rest since she had a heart attack a few weeks ago.  Now my mom has high blood pressure and is on meds for that and taking asprin for her heart.  I keep trying to convince her to talk to a professional but she won't.  I told her I didn't want to have her have a break down too.  Losing one parent is enough. 
                   
                  Your right about relying on any Eckist.. I just was hoping.. (false hope obviously)  I know they aren't any help when it comes to helping my dad.
                   
                  Is there anyone that does interventions??  Do they work?  Is there anyone that can give me advice on those.. or where to look??  What about getting him mental help?  Can we do that?  I appreciate it any and ALL advice.
                   
                  You know if my dad was *normal* and wanted to leave my mom then I think I could accept it a lot easier.  I am tired of hearing his bullsh*t line about "divine love"   How his karma with us is done.  What about  us??  We go on family camping trips every year.  My dad always plans them.  Last July we drove all the way to Yellowstone National Park.  Where all those family trips just something to pass the time until he me her??  What a load that he can't grow spiritually unless he is with this Canadian woman.  Yup, she is Canadian and my dad is planning on moving there in August.  Then it pisses me off more because he tries to make us understand.  And he had the balls to tell my mom the story about how him and that b*tch met!  He tried to make it sound like a beautiful story where their eyes met across the temple and he just knew it was her... his dream woman. 

                  Once again, thanks for listening to me.

                  Blessings to everyone,
                  Lillia

                  brighttigress@... wrote:

                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > I feel like my balloon has been deflated. 

                  You know, I feel a bit bad that you were really hoping that an official
                  cult representative would think there's something "wrong" with this
                  situation.  I guess I didn't really talk a lot about how eckists were
                  probably going to look at this situation, and the cult's "teachings" on
                  non-interference, non-judging, etc.

                  The cult "teaches" a lot about the importance of not getting involved in
                  someone's karma, which can happen even with a little thing like having an
                  opinion about something.  One example I can think of that an eckist
                  mentioned awhile back, someone fell down some steps and was just laying
                  there crying for someone to call 911, but the eckist who was there refused
                  to call for fear of taking on karma.  And another one, about an elderly
                  eckist who slipped and fell after an eckthing and broke her hip - the
                  other eckists could only wonder what karma was involved there, and
                  couldn't really express any feelings because the cult teaches we choose
                  everything that happens to us - unless it's one of those karma-things "the
                  master" decides we can't work out in the dream state and need to do it in
                  real life whether we like it or not.  <gg>  In the cult, there are no
                  accidents. 

                  The thing is, most eckists will *not* be at all bothered or concerned
                  about what your father's doing.  Most of them will probably be on his
                  side, and honor his dreams, etc., and agree that his karma with his family
                  is probably worked out, so he's free to find true spiritual fulfillment
                  and be able to grow spiritually with this new woman. 

                  They might talk the talk about putting the family first, and love, and
                  personal responsibility, and Maybury's Laws and all that - but their
                  "walk" is an entirely different thing. 

                  The only thing I thought the cult might "officially" object to was your
                  father quitting his job to be a full-time eckmissionary.  That's something
                  that's definitely addressed in the "teachings", that people are supposed
                  to be "responsible" and hold down a job.  How else will they be able to
                  pay for their memberships, books, seminars, jewelry, posters, etc.?  

                  Although this *is* the "Year of the Missionary" (or Vahana, I'm not sure
                  what word they're using "officially"), cult members are supposed to use
                  their own money & resources.  In fact, cult members even have to buy the
                  posters, press kids, promotional brochures, etc., that they use to hand
                  out in public.  Seems to me they have to pay if they want any "newbie
                  freebie" books, too - my old cult catalog is in a box.  People can get the
                  book free by calling, but eckists who want to hand them out have to pay
                  for them, I'm 99% sure.  If they were free, I'd have sent for some to
                  hand out.  And the cult doesn't even provide books to be placed in
                  libraries or sent overseas or whatever - cult members are asked to
                  "donate" them. 

                  I'm really sorry if I encouraged you to get in touch with MN and had you
                  thinking they might help, because I was pretty sure they'd respond as they
                  did.  I guess I was just thinking at least you'd try, and then you'd see
                  how the cult thinks & acts, and at least other people would learn
                  something too.  And although the cult wouldn't really help, at least
                  they'd know that they'd better have Klemp remind eckists that he doesn't
                  want them quitting their jobs and leaving their families, etc., or
                  something. 

                  I mean, he *did* write a Mystic World members-only letter telling them to
                  cut down on screwing around at seminars because it gave potential new
                  members a bad impression!   He's said the same thing about drinking - cult
                  members aren't really supposed to drink, but if they do, they should do it
                  behind closed doors.  There's a *lot* in the "teachings" that shows the
                  cult is more concerned about public image than anything else. 

                  It's like the "Arahata Book" - arahata is a "teacher", BTW.  I think it's
                  pretty funny that it tells people to wash & use deodorant & clean clothes
                  before arahata-ing.  <gg>  Duh.  You'd think "chosen people" who've been
                  through all those incarnations and earned the privilege of being eckists,
                  co-workers & all, well....I think basic hygiene would be a "given",
                  wouldn't you?

                  If your family were eckists too, and asked for help with this, perhaps
                  they'd have given it a bit of attention, who knows?  I mean, what would
                  happen if your mother were an eckist and said that *her* dreams had shown
                  this woman as an evil tramp who was pursuing her husband on those higher
                  planes, interfering with his commitment to his family, etc., and that Wah
                  Z had turned up in one of them, driving off the evil tramp with the
                  blazing Sword of the SUGMAD?   In that case, who knows?  Maybe the cult
                  would say okay, conflicting "messages from the mahanta" here, maybe this
                  is a *lesson* for dear old dad, one where he's supposed to see through the
                  illusion and realize this dream woman is maybe like one of them thar
                  darned pesky black magicians who show up in dreams disguised as eckmasters
                  and even kill people in their sleep?   I remember one story where these
                  bad guys were trying to convince someone to jump off a dream-cliff or
                  something. 

                  Of course, the cult "teaches" that membership includes the "protection" of
                  "the mahanta" from stuff like this - but Graham Forsyth & Fordji are
                  probably the most "public" examples of members who did all the "right
                  things" to be sure their "inner" was reliable.  And Klemp has mentioned
                  that a lot of eckists will get "messages" telling them they're going to be
                  the next LEM. 

                  This is the thing - there is *no way* cult members can *really* be sure
                  about anything "on the inner".  If it's something that's favorable to &
                  supportive of the cult, it's "good".   And that's about it. 

                  Eckists perceive non-eckists as "lower", not "ready" for the "high" so-
                  called "teachings", etc.  I'm not the only one who as a member, often
                  thought non-eckists just weren't capable of understanding various things -
                  and I heard other eckists say things like "They're not eckists; what do
                  *they* know?"  

                  In fact, I'll give the example of one time where an HI made this comment,
                  it's a good example of "eckthink".  I was personally disturbed that this
                  HI used her workplace for more eckstuff than "work" duties, not just time,
                  but resources & materials.  I thought it wasn't really ethical, and I was
                  also a bit disturbed because her co-workers were not happy with her and it
                  gave them a bad impression of the cult, too.  So, I'm a pretty
                  straightforward person, my feelings bothered me and I wanted to work them
                  out, so I discussed this with the HI.  Basically, she had no problem and
                  actually thought the opportunity to use her job for cultstuff was a gift
                  from Suggie, and anyway, if her co-workers pushed it, she had union
                  protection.

                  You know, I don't think it's a big deal when our "office" pens end up at
                  home - I'm just as likely to use my "personal" pens on the job, especially
                  if the job buys those round Bic stick-pens that for some reason I just do
                  *not* like!   Most jobs don't really have a problem with stuff like this,
                  like personal phone calls, photocopies, etc., within reason.  In fact,
                  I'm remembering once over at a.r.e. when the eckthugs tracked someone's
                  headers & found they were posting from a school account and this person
                  was threatened about being reported to their employer for mis-use of
                  company time & resources, without even knowing any details other than the
                  obviously educational email address - which by the way, didn't necessarily
                  mean anything.  My first ISP was a local non-profit ISP which at first
                  used a sort of long "educational" address, don't remember it exactly but
                  it was kind like like "us.pa.k12.edu" or something - if I (or anyone else
                  using my ISP) had posted with that as a "detractor", no doubt the eckthugs
                  would assume I was a school district employee.  Anyway, even if I *was* a
                  school employee, I read my grandkids' school district's internet policy
                  handbook, and teachers and employees *are* permitted to use the internet
                  for personal reasons, within reason, during work hours.   And I'm familiar
                  with a lot of other jobs with basically the same policy.

                  Anyway, Lillia, I've really tried to be sort of "balanced" about this,
                  and while I too would love to see a miracle because they *do* happen, I
                  just hope I was also able to let you know I wasn't really too hopeful.  On
                  the other hand, being hurt is part of life, isn't it?  I just hate to see
                  it happen to people.  And you know, I'm just thinking back, and I think I
                  might have missed writing something to you that I generally suggest to
                  most concerned friends & family members - I've always found the "Serenity
                  Prayer" very helpful.  You know, "God grant us the serenity to accept the
                  things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can,
                  and wisdom to know the difference."   

                  It's perfectly natural for you and your family to be traumatized by all of
                  this, but especially for *your* children and your mother, well...sometimes
                  we've gotta do our best to not totally fall apart.  Or at least recognize
                  that while falling apart is often quite appropriate at least for a short
                  time, we *do* need to sort of keep it under control and move towards
                  "recovery".   I'm sure you're doing this. 

                  Let me use another personal example here - a late Aunt who was in a
                  Siberian concentration camp in WWII when she was 14.  She & an older man
                  managed to escape and walk to France.  So until the day she died, at
                  family gatherings you could count on her moaning & groaning about the
                  horrible world we live in, and that's why she always refused to have
                  children.   Okay, you can *never* totally get over bad experiences, but
                  you don't need to spend the rest of your life *living* them, you know?

                  Excuse me for getting a bit "preachy", but that's what I do.  <gg>

                  Oh, another thing that no one else seems to have mentioned that I'd like
                  to see some other opinions on.  I told Lillia privately that I thought her
                  father should be the one to tell his grandchildren what's happening, not
                  Lillia.  And I think this is a matter of his accepting personal
                  responsibility for his actions.   Lillia, if you think that the kids
                  haven't at least picked up on something "wrong" going on, you may be
                  mistaken.  But I really think, especially because you're the one who's
                  going to have to comfort your son and minimize the damage, you should
                  *not* be the one to explain your father's plans to him.  Let him look in
                  that little boy's eyes and tell him all that stuff about his dreams and
                  messages from his "master", and how he's finished "serving time" with his
                  family but now he's free for *real* love. 

                  And Colleen - you might be familiar with some "psychological principles"
                  or something in this area, seems to me I've come across things about how
                  especially if Mom's the one to break the bad news that she is *not*
                  responsible for, the little boy might turn his anger & stuff on her, not
                  where it belongs, on his beloved grandpop.   And please don't feel that
                  expressing your opinion on this would be inappropriate or that you'd be
                  acting as a therapist.  I'm laughing here, just thinking of "balance" and
                  how I could probably write to that eckist German therapist who got in a
                  tad bit of professional trouble for sort of pushing eckstuff on an
                  unsuspecting patient, just to get a different opinion expressed.  I think
                  that story's in the "links" section here. 

                  Okay, marriages *do* break up, and you never know - Lillia's father might
                  have ended up doing something like this even if he *wasn't* an eckist,
                  except in that case, well...that's just sort of "normal".  But Lillia's
                  father's case is *not* "normal" because of all the years of dreams, and
                  the whole wacky cult-thing, and the quite normal (for eckists) "seminar
                  high" that's frequently mentioned in "the teachings".  But...look at the
                  details Lillia's told about her parents' marriage.  There was no
                  indication of serious trouble.

                  It's not much different from some friends of mine - the wife accidentally
                  found out about her husband's affair with his secretary at their son's
                  wedding.  She threw a drink in his face and kicked him out of the house,
                  and the company transferred the secretary.  But this guy was *not* an
                  eckist and didn't think he was doing God's will or anything.  Anyway, they
                  ended up getting re-married five years later.  He admitted he made a
                  mistake.  I think it's less likely that Lillia's dad is going to be able
                  to admit he (or the "inner master") made a mistake, he's too caught up in
                  realizing his fantasies.  And when he comes back to earth, well...it's not
                  going to be as simple to go back as it was for my friends.  It's not that
                  simple. 

                  Lots of possibilities here - like, I don't even know if it would be
                  possible to have this man involuntarily committed or anything, even though
                  many professionals might very well think he's temporarily insane or
                  something.  And that wouldn't help either, probably - no matter what kind
                  of wacky stuff is going on inside an eckist, they're very good at
                  maintaining the appearance of being "normal".   Take Klemp, for instance,
                  how he deliberately lied to the social workers & shrinks when he landed in
                  the looney-bin because he was getting all those wacky "inner messages",
                  including being told to start stripping at the airport. 

                  I, too, wonder - why the August deadline?  Is he expecting your mother to
                  pack his bags for him, and make sure all the buttons are sewn on his
                  shirts, etc.?   How would he feel if the situation were reversed?

                  And here comes another story!!  <gg>  An old friend's wife left him & the
                  kids (5 & 1 1/2) to take off with her new-age guru-lover and search for
                  magic crystals in the Arizona desert, and when they came back would you
                  believe she thought it would be wonderful for her & her lover to move into
                  the family home.  The husband made a good living, the guru didn't.  <gg>
                  Anyway, my friend was *totally* devastated - and by the way, although I
                  took his "perfect husband" side of the story with a grain of salt in spite
                  of the fact that he *did* seem totally perfect, I did take the time to ask
                  this woman about it when I finally met her.  And you know, she totally
                  agreed that my friend *was* a perfect husband - the only time both parties
                  told the same story!  And I'm sorry if I offend anyone, because there are
                  always exceptions, but I *do* think that quite often "new-age" people are
                  quite selfish and all wrapped up in themselves and their own "spiritual
                  growth", and often find "spiritual" rationalizations for doing what they
                  feel like doing without any respect or consideration for who they hurt in
                  the process.  Love and personal responsibility only apply when it suits
                  them.

                  And I *do* think that it might help him to get his butt out of the family
                  home *now*!!!   Let him actually *experience* dumping the family, maybe
                  being away *before* he runs off to spiritual-lover-lalaland might make him
                  think a little bit.  In his heart, he's already gone.  And he wasn't
                  *totally* there even before he met this woman - although it can be argued
                  that he wasn't actually doing anything wrong by having an other-planes
                  affair, well excuse me....but considering how the cult "teaches" that the
                  "other planes" are even *more* real and important than the illusion we're
                  supposedly living here on earth, the ashcan of the universe, I think he's
                  just as "guilty" as he would've been if he was having a "real" affair with
                  a "real" woman. 

                  Well, that's about all I have to say right now.

                  Hugs,

                  Sharon













                  I called the Eckankar center today and the "Spiritual Advice" lady did not
                  help me.  All I got was "Well your father is an adult"  But she did
                  connect me to our area's RESA.  I spoke to him and he knows my father. 
                  Even though he understood me and what we are going through.... he won't do
                  anything.  I was told by him that "Eckist have freedom of will and that he
                  cannot intervene, but if my dad called him then they could talk".  Oh and
                  the RESA knows my dad.  He thinks highly of my dad.... but didn't seem
                  too concerned about my dads state of mind.  Or about my dad's obssession
                  with this "other woman"  Maybe "not concerned" isn't the term I mean.. he
                  didn't seem...bothered.  Would that sound right?  He said he understood
                  what we were going through and sympathized with us.  I guess I was just
                  disappointed.  I mean this RESA was very nice and understanding but why
                  won't he step up and grab the bull by the horns??  Why won't he call my
                  dad and
                  >  ask to speak to him.  He isn't telling my dad what to do, but if his
                  family has concerns isn't it up to this man to speak to my dad.  Isn't
                  that why they are a spiritual aid?  Does my dad have to do something
                  drastic for someone to help?  My dad is not thinking straight... my dad is
                  not in the "right state of mind"  I feel like all these doors are closing
                  and no one will "interven" or help us. 
                  > I want to call this other woman.. but then what, she won't care. 
                  > If anyone else has been through this or has more ideas.. I will keep
                  trying what ever I have to do.  I appreciate everyone's input, thoughts,
                  and concerns.  Please keep them coming.  I need to hear from people who
                  have been there.  That there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

                  > God bless,
                  > Lillia
                  >
                  > brighttigress@y... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Got this one privately this morning, and I think it's worth posting
                  here.
                  >
                  > -----------------------------------------
                  >
                  >    Did you read what I wrote about
                  > experiencing both
                  > a compulsion and an obsession simultaneously? You're wrong,
                  > Sandra's
                  > wrong, Colleen's wrong. This in NOT a "cult" thing and this is
                  > NOT this
                  > guy's choice. He's in deep shit with an compulsive-obsessive
                  > disorder,
                  > a compulsive-obsessive experience he can't control and he can't
                  > deal
                  > with and he needs INTERVENTION. You're right and Paul (Sword) is
                  > right.
                  > The cult doesn't want this shit and doesn't want people doing
                  > this
                  > shit. And I know it's natural for women on to rally around the
                  > family,
                  > daughter, and wife but what kind of person is this other woman?
                  > Does
                  > she know all this? What kind of a low life home-wrecking crazy
                  > must she
                  > be? Someone has to get in touch with Lillia's Dad's RESA And
                  > this other
                  > woman's RESA too. I've got the current list that just came out
                  > if you
                  > need names. Also, I wouldn't just call the ECK Center, I'd call
                  > Chanhassen and say I wanted to speak to an ESA right there on
                  > the phone
                  > right then. Shit rolls down hill much faster. You can bet your
                  > ass both
                  > RESAs would hear about it quick enough. Also, do you have
                  > Eckankar's
                  > new address and phone numbers (for Lillia)?
                  >
                  > ECKANKAR
                  > PO Box 2000
                  > Chanhassen, MN 55317-2000
                  >
                  > main # (952) 380-2200
                  > fax # (952) 380-2295
                  > membership services # (952) 380-2222
                  >
                  > This is about a compulsive-obsessive disorder brought on by
                  > years of
                  > dreaming and fantasizing and then suddenly seeing who he'd been
                  > dreaming and fantasizing about for real which triggered it. 
                  > It's
                  > really not time for name calling, finger pointing, tut-tutting,
                  > or
                  > blame laying. This is time for focus on the real, active
                  > affliction
                  > here and intervening, cutting through its process.
                  >
                  > And if you want to post this, if you think that'd help, go for
                  > it!
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Well, I thought this one was great!  
                  >
                  > And I don't mean to "defend" myself here - I agree it's not the time for
                  > blame-laying, etc.  BUT I feel my "job" is tying in all the individual-
                  > level problems and showing how the cult *is* responsible for things like
                  > this.  That's how I started out "detracting", actually.  When someone at
                  > a.r.e. brought up Joe Sykes, who both current & former members tend to
                  > just blow off as "nuts" or "unbalanced" or whatever.  As an eckist, I
                  > thought that was too easy - this guy was *not* much different from me or
                  > anyone else, we believed, we trusted, we did our best to be good
                  eckists.
                  > What happened to him, where was "the master", how could this happen to
                  > someone?  As a former member, I felt the same way.  So I looked deeper,
                  > and it was obvious that the "teachings" were a major factor in this sad
                  > story.   I remembered an early Satsang, we were probably studying the
                  > Klemp "black magic" discourse which probably actually pertained to
                  Darwin
                  > Gross although at that time even mentioning Gross's name was a no-no but
                  I
                  > didn't know that.  Anyway, I was sort of surprised at how superstitious
                  > and even fearful the other members of the group were, like one woman
                  whose
                  > child had been given a little doll or something by a stranger in a diner
                  > or something, and she was convinced this woman was some kind of witch,
                  > maybe even working out past-life stuff, and this doll was evil or
                  > something, and had to be destroyed and they had to do all those silly
                  > "protection rituals".  
                  >
                  > Although it's true that every "case" has a lot of unique & individual
                  > variables and quite often you can't really "blame" the cult, in the
                  bigger
                  > picture the cult is generally either directly & strongly responsible for
                  > these tragic stories, or at least influences them.  
                  >
                  > For example, lots of middle-aged men go through that male menopause
                  thing.
                  > A non-eckist might start out noticing an attractive co-worker, and might
                  > end up a bit obsessed, maybe even start an affair - but although they
                  can
                  > use that "my wife doesn't understand me" or just as often, not enough
                  sex,
                  > they can just as often recognize that people are human and we all at
                  least
                  > look, often even fantasize, there's a certain line they won't cross, out
                  > of love for their families, and honoring their marriage vows. 
                  >
                  > With Lillia's father, if he weren't an eckist, it's quite likely that
                  none
                  > of this would have happened, or at the very least, never have gone as
                  far
                  > as it did. 
                  >
                  > And in all fairness, I'll write a bit, thoughts I've expressed a bit to
                  > Lillia privately about her dad.  You know, he's probably the biggest
                  > victim of them all, and the one most hurt by all of this.  What's going
                  to
                  > happen to this poor man once that exciting "honeymoon" falling-in-love
                  > phase is over, and reality hits?  Yeah, I've thought about this a lot -
                  > either he's going to have to go into deeper denial & think up more
                  > mystical rationalizations in order to live with himself, or he won't be
                  > able to do that, and he'll be hit right in the face with the reality of
                  > how much damage has been done, and there's no fixing it.  I can't even
                  > begin to imagine how horrible he's going to feel, and considering how
                  he's
                  > handling this situation now, I don't think he's going to have an easy
                  time
                  > living with himself.  He's going to hurt *so* bad, because I think he's
                  > basically a very good and decent man.   Now, if he'd simply been like
                  most
                  > men and either had an affair or didn't, been able to keep it secret or
                  > not, and either way, either stayed with his family or left it for his
                  > lover, it's just all entirely different when the deepest and "sacred"
                  > parts of your heart and soul are involved.   He'll have to either find a
                  > way to reconcile his spiritual beliefs and his belief in the cult and
                  its
                  > "master" with the plain fact that they led him to making a *big*
                  mistake,
                  > or he'll have to face the fact that perhaps there's something *very*
                  wrong
                  > with e-kult and its "teachings", both its "inner" and "outer".  He'll
                  end
                  > up either blaming himself for "not getting it" or whatever, or he'll
                  have
                  > to face the fact that he believed in a bunch of b.s., and go through the
                  > whole waking-up-and-recovering process on top of all the other stress &
                  > stuff he's been through, through the whole breakup.  Because you *know*
                  > he's feeling pretty bad about hurting his family, even though he truly
                  > believes he's doing the right thing for himself spiritually.
                  >
                  > I hope this all leads somehow to the cult really taking a deeper look at
                  > those convoluted "teachings" and the many people who have been hurt, and
                  > straightening out its act a bit, and taking proper responsibility for
                  its
                  > part in so many sad stories.  They need to take a good honest look at
                  > themselves, and straighten out the cult's act. 
                  >
                  > Hugs,
                  >
                  > Sharon
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >                
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Elizabeth
                  Interesting side note that this women is a Canadian! Wonder if I know her???? I have had many past dealings for 30 years, with Canadian Eckist since I live
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 28, 2005
                    Interesting side note that this women is a Canadian!   Wonder if I know her????   I have had many past dealings for 30 years, with Canadian Eckist since I live in a State that borders it.  Got a First name for this home wrecker?
                     
                    Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@...> wrote:
                    > What a load that he can't grow spiritually unless he is with this Canadian woman.  Yup, she is Canadian and my dad is planning on moving there in August.  Then it pisses me off more because he tries to make us understand.  And he had the balls to tell my mom the story about how him and that b*tch met!  He tried to make it sound like a beautiful story where their eyes met across the temple and he just knew it was her... his dream woman. 

                    Once again, thanks for listening to me.

                    Blessings to everyone,
                    Lillia
                  • Wonder Woman
                    The home wrecker is Alana. Would it be wrong if I posted her last name as well?? I wonder if you know her. It would be interesting to know what kind of woman
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 28, 2005
                      The home wrecker is Alana.  Would it be wrong if I posted her last name as well?? I wonder if you know her.  It would be interesting to know what kind of woman she is.  Especially since I REALLY believe she "saw my dad coming"
                      I bet she saw $$$$ when she met my dad.  My dad dresses very well and makes good money. 

                      Elizabeth <whitefeatherliz@...> wrote:
                      Interesting side note that this women is a Canadian!   Wonder if I know her????   I have had many past dealings for 30 years, with Canadian Eckist since I live in a State that borders it.  Got a First name for this home wrecker?
                       
                      Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@...> wrote:
                      > What a load that he can't grow spiritually unless he is with this Canadian woman.  Yup, she is Canadian and my dad is planning on moving there in August.  Then it pisses me off more because he tries to make us understand.  And he had the balls to tell my mom the story about how him and that b*tch met!  He tried to make it sound like a beautiful story where their eyes met across the temple and he just knew it was her... his dream woman. 

                      Once again, thanks for listening to me.

                      Blessings to everyone,
                      Lillia



                       
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                    • Elizabeth
                      Actually I wouldn t post her last name here unless you want problems. I have seen where situations such as this, once confronting the two with their
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 29, 2005
                        Actually I wouldn't post her last name here unless you want problems.  
                         
                        I have seen where situations such as this, once confronting the two with their indiscretion, most likely will put an end to the whole thing.   Although in your case you said your Father openly admitted the affair of the heart?   Wonder if she were to be approached, would she even have the same focus as your Father does?  I mean,  maybe she isn't as enamored with your Father as he is of her.   Maybe if she is made aware of the turmoil, it will bring things to a screeching halt?   
                         
                        I wonder if it is harder for adult children to handle a separation or divorce of their parents?   I have compassion for your situation, and hope you all can find peace in the end.   It has to be difficult, but something that needs to be faced.   Don't let this develop into a problem with your own family and relationship!    I think it takes some courage to approach a situation like this with a group of strangers here in this chat group, a unique twist being they are eckist.... yet not too uncommon within the org.   I saw more *free love* at the seminars and back in the 70's at those eck camp seminars, than any teenager needed to see!   ;-)    Lots of illegitimate kids running around from those gatherings.   Wonder how many stories this topic could generate here?   All those memories......     ;-)       

                        Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@...> wrote:
                        The home wrecker is Alana.  Would it be wrong if I posted her last name as well?? I wonder if you know her.  It would be interesting to know what kind of woman she is.  Especially since I REALLY believe she "saw my dad coming"
                        I bet she saw $$$$ when she met my dad.  My dad dresses very well and makes good money. 

                      • colleen
                        Hi Sharon, I appreciate your feedback (to a degree! (g)) but just to clarify, I am one for acknowledging all of our human emotions, including noting the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 29, 2005
                          Hi Sharon,

                          I appreciate your feedback (to a degree! (g)) but just
                          to clarify, I am one for acknowledging all of our
                          human emotions, including noting the "anger" in the
                          post which I perceived and you didn't. And, yes, I
                          have anger and compassion about the way a family
                          appears to be harmed by eckankar, although we don't
                          know the whole story, of course. We're in agreement
                          there! I had to change my comfort level after leaving
                          eckankar so that when I noted someone was "angry" or I
                          perceived someone as such, it was as acceptable to me
                          as noting someone was "happy" and "full of love" or
                          whatever. Certainly in eckankar we could always say
                          "you loook full of light" or whatever after
                          "practicing" a "spiritual exercise" or seeing the
                          "mahanta". Could we say "you look angry as hell?"
                          and, accept that state? Of course, not! It wasn't
                          "acceptable" behavior, and so we were "split" in terms
                          of our ability to be and know ourselves, IMHO.

                          So I like to use my freedom of expression. My
                          perceptions can be somewhat distorted like anyone
                          elses and the written dialogue here limits the whole
                          intent and feeling in interactions. I felt that the
                          person giving a diagnosis of a disorder with the
                          information available could be quite misleading and
                          minimize the impact of the cult influences. But
                          that's IMHO!

                          Also, I reread my quick note to you before reading
                          your post to me, and I saw that it could be taken as a
                          criticism of you, which it wasn't meant to be at all
                          (for passing on the private email!) And when you wrote
                          "chill" it seemed a bit condescending to me... that
                          you are wanting to change the way I respond, which I
                          don't feel is necessary. I wasn't very upset
                          anyway...just somewhat irritated and feeling
                          protective of the person who wrote in about her
                          father, as well as the father...it's upsetting for
                          many of us, I know. Others here may appreciate the
                          comments and feel the person is "right on"...that's
                          each person's freedom. Also, when you say "Chill,
                          Colleen"...I don't know if you're really irritated
                          with me, or if you're just being playful. Hard to
                          read between the lines.

                          Oh, well......

                          Such is life....

                          The book by Arthur Deikman is Them and Us, Cultic
                          Thinking and the Terrorist Threat, with a forward by
                          Doris Lessing.

                          Regards,
                          Colleen

                          --- brighttigress@... wrote:

                          >
                          > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, colleen
                          > <colleenmft@y...> wrote:
                          > > Regarding the "private" email you passed on here,
                          > > Sharon, I don't know how anyone could be
                          > absolutely
                          > > certain of a "right" reason and/or diagnosis,
                          > given
                          > > the information provided. And who is this person
                          > who
                          > > dares to give a diagnosis online?
                          > >
                          >
                          > Chill, Colleen!! You know, it's great the way
                          > you're so conscious of the
                          > line between personal & professional and so careful
                          > not to cross the lines
                          > between Colleen the licensed therapist and Colleen
                          > the former cult member
                          > who happens to be a licensed therapist and therefore
                          > knows a lot of good
                          > stuff about the whole cult thing, and can understand
                          > & talk about it all
                          > in "professional" terms or whatever. You know, like
                          > everyone else'll talk
                          > about it in one way, but you can talk about the
                          > issues in "professional"
                          > terms, and you're also familiar with a lot of good
                          > experts & articles &
                          > stuff. But the problem is, all the nastiness from
                          > the eckthugs & Fordji -
                          > like, as a former member, you're supposed to "turn
                          > off" anything you've
                          > learned as a professional - so I understand why
                          > you're a bit concerned
                          > about this particular person's opinions.
                          >
                          > Anyway, I guess maybe I should have mentioned the
                          > person who wrote that is
                          > *not* a professional in the mental health field.
                          > It's just a person
                          > expressing their opinion, and many people pick up a
                          > lot of "psychological"
                          > stuff in life, heck, it's all over - self-help
                          > books, magazines, TV, etc.
                          > I don't think anyone really took the opinion
                          > expressed as a "diagnosis",
                          > really. I thought it was a very interesting thought
                          > that made a lot of
                          > sense. We non-professionals really don't think
                          > anything when other non-
                          > professionals make observations like that.
                          >
                          > Say you know someone who's got 30 cats in the house
                          > and they're washing
                          > their hands so much that they're cracked and
                          > bleeding, I think it's safe
                          > to say their behavior is a bit obsessive-compulsive.
                          > Or if someone's
                          > visiting somewhere and keeps telling their host that
                          > "they" are out there
                          > in the bushes hiding, and would the host please let
                          > the dog out to chase
                          > them away...that's obviously paranoia. I think the
                          > details Lillia gave
                          > were enough to suggest the possibility of at least a
                          > touch of obsessive-
                          > compulsive behavior. But really, when you think
                          > about it, isn't that a
                          > "normal" part of falling in love? Maybe moreso with
                          > teenagers. I'd say a
                          > 53-year-old man who runs up $1,000 in cell phone
                          > calls to the girlfriend
                          > has a bit of a problem, unless he's Donald Trump.
                          > That's something teens
                          > are more likely to do. <gg>
                          >
                          > Lillia's father started out doing the spex, etc.,
                          > started dreaming about a
                          > woman, this was fun, and it's not hard to see he
                          > could have gotten carried
                          > away with it, a tad bit obsessed & addicted even.
                          > Heck, I think remember
                          > reading in the cult's "teachings" that people can
                          > get carried away with
                          > the "spex" and that leads to "unbalance" in "real
                          > life". Let's face it,
                          > those "dream worlds" can be a lot more fun than real
                          > life, can't they?
                          > Geez, when I was in the cult, I had more of a
                          > problem *not* doing the spex
                          > than doing them - I liked the eckbuzz! Oh, wow, the
                          > colors!!! <gg>
                          >
                          > Anyway, Colleen, my mind was just floating around
                          > thinking about the
                          > difficulty between separating personal &
                          > professional - a few years back
                          > my daughter & I were standing in line at the grocery
                          > store. She's a
                          > nurse. Nodding towards the woman who was checking
                          > out, my daughter
                          > whispered "That woman's got great veins!" Well, I
                          > thought this was sort
                          > of hilarious, but just for the heck of it, ever
                          > since, I always ask the
                          > technician or nurse when I'm getting blood drawn if
                          > they look at people's
                          > veins while standing in the check-out line - and
                          > they *all* do it!!
                          >
                          > Okay, but just for the record - all the opinions
                          > expressed here are just
                          > opinions, and everyone's welcome to take them or
                          > leave them, but don't
                          > take them as absolute "truth" or whatever.
                          >
                          >
                          > > I also note from the writing a bit of anger....and
                          >
                          > > judgement about who is "right" and "wrong".
                          > >
                          >
                          > I didn't notice <oh horrors!!> that dreaded &
                          > forbidden "anger". I saw
                          > someone expressing some natural feelings about a
                          > situation, empathizing
                          > with this family and Lillia's frustration.
                          >
                          > You know, it occurred to me that some people might
                          > get "angry" about
                          > Lillia's feelings about this. Like...okay, let's
                          > use Klemp & Kunin for
                          > example. I'm sure they'd have different feelings
                          > about this, since they
                          > both dumped their families for the new lovers they
                          > were carrying on with
                          > while they were still married.
                          >
                          > We're not in the cult anymore. We're *allowed* to
                          > feel normal human
                          > emotions, and make judgments about what's right and
                          > wrong. And it's a
                          > good thing. Hey, there are already enough problems
                          > in the world, and the
                          > *last* thing we need is a bunch of silly grinning
                          > new-agey cultpuppies all
                          > spaced out on luuuuuuuv while a bunch of scumbags
                          > run rampant, committing
                          > all sorts of crimes and atrocities.
                          >
                          > Let me use another example here from my private
                          > files. An eckist molested
                          > his stepchildren, served a short time in jail for
                          > one of them but the
                          > other wasn't able to talk about it until later. He
                          > gets out of jail, and
                          > is welcomed back into the "eck community" with open
                          > arms, and even the
                          > children's mother expects the molested children to
                          > treat their molester as
                          > a "friend" as she does (they *did* break up) - I
                          > mean, who knows what
                          > karma was involved there that could only be balanced
                          > by molesting?
                          > There's something *wrong* if you don't get angry
                          > about things like this,
                          > and make judgments!!
                          >
                          >
                          > > Interesting that this person send a "private" to
                          > you
                          > > rather than directly to the group.
                          > >
                          >
                          > <giggle> Well, I think I bitch quite openly about
                          > my email, so I wouldn't
                          > exactly call it "interesting". The *real* group
                          > "action" is usually in my
                          > inbox! <gg> That's one of the reasons I started ET
                          > - to try to cut down
                          > on it. A lot of people just aren't comfortable
                          > posting in public - and I
                          > looked at this one as just some thoughts tossed in
                          > while we were yakking
                          > about other things. Sort of like I'll be writing an
                          > email and go off on a
                          > tangent about my pets, the weather, or whatever I
                          > happen to be thinking
                          > about or doing while I'm writing. It's not a big
                          > deal. I'll often be
                          > writing something "personal" and then think gee, you
                          > know, this might be
                          > more helpful as a public post. But more often than
                          > not, I just don't feel
                          > like typing it over again.
                          >
                          > Amyway - while I think of it, I want to go back to
                          > that handbook you
                          > recommended that I don't remember hearing of before,
                          > and put it on my book
                          >
                          === message truncated ===


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                        • Wonder Woman
                          So did her name sound familiar? I have thought on many occasions to call her or send her a letter. She was very easy to find on the internet. I have her
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 29, 2005
                            So did her name sound familiar?  I have thought on many occasions to call her or send her a letter. She was very easy to find on the internet.  I have her phone number and her address. That is why i thought of sending her a letter.  But I don't know how much satisfaction I want to give her if she knows how hurt we ALL are.  The first day my dad told us about her I felt so much anger.  I have never felt so much anger in my life.  We have never been a family with huge arguments or anger in the home.  Just the typical teenage stuff.  But that day I felt like my heart was shattering. Like my world as I knew was falling apart around me and I couldn't stop it.  I wanted to slap my dad and get him to see what he was doing to us.  I wish that woman could have seen the hurt and devestation she caused to all of us that January morning.  But, maybe she would have stood back with a smug look on her face.  That is what I think of her.  She would feel so proud that my dad is leaving all he has ever know and loved for her.  For someone he met in October. 
                             
                            I think it is very hard on adult "children" Especially when I have very rarely seen my parents argue.  When all they showed us was their love and respect for each other.  I tell you up until this all happened in October they were still holding hands.  My dad opened doors for my mom and took her on dates.  They drove in the car holding hands and cuddled on the couch.  So this is what I grew up believing a marriage should be.  This is the standards with which I have held up in my relationships.  To see all that break apart.... well was really tough. 
                             
                            I am thankful for my fiance.  He has been a rock to me during these tough times.  Very loving and understanding. I thank GOD that I have him.  
                             
                            Love,
                            Lillia 

                            Elizabeth <whitefeatherliz@...> wrote:
                            Actually I wouldn't post her last name here unless you want problems.  
                             
                            I have seen where situations such as this, once confronting the two with their indiscretion, most likely will put an end to the whole thing.   Although in your case you said your Father openly admitted the affair of the heart?   Wonder if she were to be approached, would she even have the same focus as your Father does?  I mean,  maybe she isn't as enamored with your Father as he is of her.   Maybe if she is made aware of the turmoil, it will bring things to a screeching halt?   
                             
                            I wonder if it is harder for adult children to handle a separation or divorce of their parents?   I have compassion for your situation, and hope you all can find peace in the end.   It has to be difficult, but something that needs to be faced.   Don't let this develop into a problem with your own family and relationship!    I think it takes some courage to approach a situation like this with a group of strangers here in this chat group, a unique twist being they are eckist.... yet not too uncommon within the org.   I saw more *free love* at the seminars and back in the 70's at those eck camp seminars, than any teenager needed to see!   ;-)    Lots of illegitimate kids running around from those gatherings.   Wonder how many stories this topic could generate here?   All those memories......     ;-)       

                            Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@...> wrote:
                            The home wrecker is Alana.  Would it be wrong if I posted her last name as well?? I wonder if you know her.  It would be interesting to know what kind of woman she is.  Especially since I REALLY believe she "saw my dad coming"
                            I bet she saw $$$$ when she met my dad.  My dad dresses very well and makes good money. 




                             
                            Wonder Woman Lynda Carter - Wonder Woman


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                          • Elizabeth
                            Wonder Woman wrote: So did her name sound familiar? ... *** I can t imagine anyone getting satisfaction from knowing how hurt a
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 30, 2005


                              Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@...> wrote:
                              >So did her name sound familiar?
                               
                              *** No actually, but we have a few Canadians on this list that might recognize it? 
                               
                              >I have thought on many occasions to call her or send her a letter. She was very easy to find on the internet.  I have her phone number and her address. That is why i thought of sending her a letter.  But I don't know how much satisfaction I want to give her if she knows how hurt we ALL are.
                               
                              ***  I can't imagine anyone getting satisfaction from knowing how hurt a family is by a situation such as yours.   I don't feel I am equipped to recommend what you should really do....  because in a way I think you have already come to the conclusion she is a terrible person.  I know this might frustrate you that I say this, yet I am thinking that maybe you are not aware of the whole story?     
                               
                              Many years ago, I worked for a guy that was in his late 40's....  married 25 years, and complained to me constantly of how his wife was always holding back sex, they didn't communicate, and many times when he made an effort to be romantic, she would push him away.   He would tell me all the romantic things he would do for her, then ask if I would appreciate a man who did this?   LOL,   well NO KIDDING!  
                               
                              This guy was very charming, well dressed and knew exactly what to say to make me feel *special*.   He would ask me to have lunch with him, invite me for drinks, or to secretly meet in the evening just to talk.  We each had pagers for work, and he wanted to create a secret code to use when the other wanted to meet.   He didn't want me to call him at home unless it was work related etc.....
                               
                              I never went along with any of his advances, although at the time I was very flattered, and tempted!   I kept thinking about how hurt and devastated I had been when I caught my husband cheating on me years before.   I was nervous being around this guy, because of a mutual attraction....  yet the women in me knew I could not hurt another women and her family!    I could never hurt another person, because I knew how it felt when it happened to me....  similar to a death!    I made it clear I wouldn't move forward with another relationship unless I was a single women, and the man was single too.   He  tried every angle, to convince me his marriage was over.   Yet I knew it really wasn't.   Now had I not worked with this guy, met him at a seminar where he could feed me anything he thought I might want to hear,   I wouldn't have a clue whether his stories were true or not of his marriage, and whether it was over.
                               
                              He is telling your family one thing, planning to leave in Aug.,   yet he could very well have told this women a pack full of lies as did my co-worker.   I doubt he has told this Alana chick the whole truth!   He has most likely shared HIS truth, but not the whole picture.   If a guy has the hots for someone they go all out to create an interesting story, even if he tells the other women he is in the process of leaving....    She lives in another Country, so she has no real knowledge of whether this guy is on the up and up!   She isn't right here to witness whether he is really *finished with his marriage*.   Does any of this make any sense?
                               
                              And it is soooo easy to blame the other women for causing all this.   Blame everything on her, because she obviously after all is a women!   I don't know about you but I don't trust other women,    ;-)    well that is an exaggeration really.  I would step back and question if she has the whole picture.  She only knows what your dad wants her to know....   
                               
                              >The first day my dad told us about her I felt so much anger.  I have never felt so much anger in my life. 
                               
                              ***  You have every right to feel anger!    And it must feel much like a death?   Easier to blame the women, because you know your dad so well?   Believe me, your dad is human, and heck if he had a dream of her years ago.... then it must be the eck directing him to be with her.  Has he been waiting all these years for this women to come into his life.... 
                               
                              I had a waking dream ( what we described in eck, as not being really asleep, still able to receive a visual picture while in contemplation ) when I was pregnant for my eldest daughter back in 1988.  This tall, dark haired slightly balding, bearded guy was standing in a misty type haze, smiling at me.  And at that moment I knew he was the man I was going to call my soul mate.  I don't put a whole lot of stock in the soul mate theory....  yet I just knew I was meant to be with this guy.   I was very upset about this contemplation experience, since I completely believed I was in love with my husband at the time, after all I was having his baby. 
                               
                              Over the years I have thought about that experience, and just figured eventually my divine love interest would show up.   In fact as my marriage became more difficult for me, I would think well maybe this guy will show up and make me feel alive again!   I wasn't really searching for him, but just knew the eck would bring him into my life!
                               
                              In 2000, I finally got the courage to divorce, and move on with my life.  I completely had by that time forgotten about my vision of this guy that was going to rescue me from my boring existence of a life.    After I finally put an end to that relationship, I was just living day to day caring for my kids without worrying about any man!
                               
                              Then one day I received an e-mail from a guy asking about eckankar, I was the local contact....  although many people would contact me from other States.   We corresponded for a couple months.  He discussed where he was in life, was recently retired from the military, trying to start a new life as a civilian.   Some of the landmarks he spoke about started to sound familiar, up to this point he had never shared where he was from.  It hadn't gotten personal in that way....   I finally asked if he lived near me.  Turns out he only lived 5 miles from me.    So one day we agreed to meet at our local park, my kids had a softball game, public enough to feel safe.  ;-)   When we walked up to each other, I realized I had seen this guy before....  even said where do I know you from?   We each tried to find a common place or people we may have known that had allowed our paths to cross in the past.   No luck....   that night I went into contemplation, and had my vision of the guy I saw 12 years before.   It was Greg my new friend!     :-D   So, yes these visions or waking dreams can come true, but I also suspect if we are looking for someone to fit the imagine of what we saw, we will.    It was when I wasn't looking so hard, I found him.   And I am completely happy in my marriage to him!   He turned out to be my *soft pillow to fall on when I need comfort*.    But it wasn't a divine love created by the eck or the mahanta.  i didn't give up one marriage for that divine love!   I respected myself enough to let spirit or my higher self direct my life.....   there is no guru, master, or path able to bring that divine love interest into someones life when it hurts another soul!   I don't believe it works that way.    If others believe in this, then they are not in touch with reality....  we are talking about human lust and lack of self respect!    And trying to make it all make sense by claiming it to be spiritual divine love.  I no longer believe in spiritual enlightenment, or the ability to be any more spiritual here on Earth, than what I currently am just by living life. 
                               
                              I personally, would have a hard time believing that divine love would have me hurt another human being for my own *selfish* needs!
                               
                               
                              >I wish that woman could have seen the hurt and devastation she caused to all of us that January morning.  But, maybe she would have stood back with a smug look on her face.  That is what I think of her.  She would feel so proud that my dad is leaving all he has ever know and loved for her.  For someone he met in October. 
                               
                              ***  I can understand why you feel this way!   And it sounds like you all are in a state of denial....    do you really believe this women has that much control over your dad?   In the process of all of what is happening to your family, it looks as though you are only wanting to blame her....   I have a hard time believing any women can be that *wonderfully sexy and powerful*  to make a man leave his wonderful loving wife and family!   It just doesn't sound realistic.     There is his truth, and then there is what she has been told about his life, wife and family.   Maybe I am naive, but I don't think she knows the whole story!   
                               
                            • Wonder Woman
                              If I came across as angry only at Alana then I apologize. I am very angry and hurt with my dad as well. I believe that he has caused this. I believe that
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 30, 2005
                                If I came across as angry only at Alana then I apologize.  I am  very angry and hurt with my dad as well.  I believe that he has caused this.  I believe that he went looking for something that he has been dreaming.  I also believe that his continued conversations with this woman keep him strong in his decision.  That is the power that I believe she has over him..  What I mean by that is that when we talk to my dad and he is feeling down and out he leaves the house to call her.  Because she is the "only" one that understands him.  My sisters and I do not understand because we don't look to the mahanta for guidance.  Did I make sense?  It's like she is the light at the end of the long tunnel. 
                                 
                                Your right, Men will only tell their version of the story.  It doesn't matter if it is correct or not.  Yes, she only knows what my dad has told her.  So maybe I will call her so that she can hear my side.  Not in an angry way (that won't help) but explain my feelings.  Let her hear the pain in my voice. 
                                 
                                Thank you Elizabeth for sharing your story with me.  Thank you for listening.  It helps to be heard by people that have been in the clutches of eck. 
                                 
                                GOD bless you,
                                Lillia

                                Elizabeth <whitefeatherliz@...> wrote:


                                Wonder Woman <lillia_guzman@...> wrote:
                                >So did her name sound familiar?
                                 
                                *** No actually, but we have a few Canadians on this list that might recognize it? 
                                 
                                >I have thought on many occasions to call her or send her a letter. She was very easy to find on the internet.  I have her phone number and her address. That is why i thought of sending her a letter.  But I don't know how much satisfaction I want to give her if she knows how hurt we ALL are.
                                 
                                ***  I can't imagine anyone getting satisfaction from knowing how hurt a family is by a situation such as yours.   I don't feel I am equipped to recommend what you should really do....  because in a way I think you have already come to the conclusion she is a terrible person.  I know this might frustrate you that I say this, yet I am thinking that maybe you are not aware of the whole story?     
                                 
                                Many years ago, I worked for a guy that was in his late 40's....  married 25 years, and complained to me constantly of how his wife was always holding back sex, they didn't communicate, and many times when he made an effort to be romantic, she would push him away.   He would tell me all the romantic things he would do for her, then ask if I would appreciate a man who did this?   LOL,   well NO KIDDING!  
                                 
                                This guy was very charming, well dressed and knew exactly what to say to make me feel *special*.   He would ask me to have lunch with him, invite me for drinks, or to secretly meet in the evening just to talk.  We each had pagers for work, and he wanted to create a secret code to use when the other wanted to meet.   He didn't want me to call him at home unless it was work related etc.....
                                 
                                I never went along with any of his advances, although at the time I was very flattered, and tempted!   I kept thinking about how hurt and devastated I had been when I caught my husband cheating on me years before.   I was nervous being around this guy, because of a mutual attraction....  yet the women in me knew I could not hurt another women and her family!    I could never hurt another person, because I knew how it felt when it happened to me....  similar to a death!    I made it clear I wouldn't move forward with another relationship unless I was a single women, and the man was single too.   He  tried every angle, to convince me his marriage was over.   Yet I knew it really wasn't.   Now had I not worked with this guy, met him at a seminar where he could feed me anything he thought I might want to hear,   I wouldn't have a clue whether his stories were true or not of his marriage, and whether it was over.
                                 
                                He is telling your family one thing, planning to leave in Aug.,   yet he could very well have told this women a pack full of lies as did my co-worker.   I doubt he has told this Alana chick the whole truth!   He has most likely shared HIS truth, but not the whole picture.   If a guy has the hots for someone they go all out to create an interesting story, even if he tells the other women he is in the process of leaving....    She lives in another Country, so she has no real knowledge of whether this guy is on the up and up!   She isn't right here to witness whether he is really *finished with his marriage*.   Does any of this make any sense?
                                 
                                And it is soooo easy to blame the other women for causing all this.   Blame everything on her, because she obviously after all is a women!   I don't know about you but I don't trust other women,    ;-)    well that is an exaggeration really.  I would step back and question if she has the whole picture.  She only knows what your dad wants her to know....   
                                 
                                >The first day my dad told us about her I felt so much anger.  I have never felt so much anger in my life. 
                                 
                                ***  You have every right to feel anger!    And it must feel much like a death?   Easier to blame the women, because you know your dad so well?   Believe me, your dad is human, and heck if he had a dream of her years ago.... then it must be the eck directing him to be with her.  Has he been waiting all these years for this women to come into his life.... 
                                 
                                I had a waking dream ( what we described in eck, as not being really asleep, still able to receive a visual picture while in contemplation ) when I was pregnant for my eldest daughter back in 1988.  This tall, dark haired slightly balding, bearded guy was standing in a misty type haze, smiling at me.  And at that moment I knew he was the man I was going to call my soul mate.  I don't put a whole lot of stock in the soul mate theory....  yet I just knew I was meant to be with this guy.   I was very upset about this contemplation experience, since I completely believed I was in love with my husband at the time, after all I was having his baby. 
                                 
                                Over the years I have thought about that experience, and just figured eventually my divine love interest would show up.   In fact as my marriage became more difficult for me, I would think well maybe this guy will show up and make me feel alive again!   I wasn't really searching for him, but just knew the eck would bring him into my life!
                                 
                                In 2000, I finally got the courage to divorce, and move on with my life.  I completely had by that time forgotten about my vision of this guy that was going to rescue me from my boring existence of a life.    After I finally put an end to that relationship, I was just living day to day caring for my kids without worrying about any man!
                                 
                                Then one day I received an e-mail from a guy asking about eckankar, I was the local contact....  although many people would contact me from other States.   We corresponded for a couple months.  He discussed where he was in life, was recently retired from the military, trying to start a new life as a civilian.   Some of the landmarks he spoke about started to sound familiar, up to this point he had never shared where he was from.  It hadn't gotten personal in that way....   I finally asked if he lived near me.  Turns out he only lived 5 miles from me.    So one day we agreed to meet at our local park, my kids had a softball game, public enough to feel safe.  ;-)   When we walked up to each other, I realized I had seen this guy before....  even said where do I know you from?   We each tried to find a common place or people we may have known that had allowed our paths to cross in the past.   No luck....   that night I went into contemplation, and had my vision of the guy I saw 12 years before.   It was Greg my new friend!     :-D   So, yes these visions or waking dreams can come true, but I also suspect if we are looking for someone to fit the imagine of what we saw, we will.    It was when I wasn't looking so hard, I found him.   And I am completely happy in my marriage to him!   He turned out to be my *soft pillow to fall on when I need comfort*.    But it wasn't a divine love created by the eck or the mahanta.  i didn't give up one marriage for that divine love!   I respected myself enough to let spirit or my higher self direct my life.....   there is no guru, master, or path able to bring that divine love interest into someones life when it hurts another soul!   I don't believe it works that way.    If others believe in this, then they are not in touch with reality....  we are talking about human lust and lack of self respect!    And trying to make it all make sense by claiming it to be spiritual divine love.  I no longer believe in spiritual enlightenment, or the ability to be any more spiritual here on Earth, than what I currently am just by living life. 
                                 
                                I personally, would have a hard time believing that divine love would have me hurt another human being for my own *selfish* needs!
                                 
                                 
                                >I wish that woman could have seen the hurt and devastation she caused to all of us that January morning.  But, maybe she would have stood back with a smug look on her face.  That is what I think of her.  She would feel so proud that my dad is leaving all he has ever know and loved for her.  For someone he met in October. 
                                 
                                ***  I can understand why you feel this way!   And it sounds like you all are in a state of denial....    do you really believe this women has that much control over your dad?   In the process of all of what is happening to your family, it looks as though you are only wanting to blame her....   I have a hard time believing any women can be that *wonderfully sexy and powerful*  to make a man leave his wonderful loving wife and family!   It just doesn't sound realistic.     There is his truth, and then there is what she has been told about his life, wife and family.   Maybe I am naive, but I don't think she knows the whole story!   
                                 


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                              • brighttigress@yahoo.com
                                Well, Lillia, at this point I don t really know what to say here. On the practical side, I hope your mother sees an attorney ASAP. And especially considering
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 1, 2005
                                  Well, Lillia, at this point I don't really know what to say here. On the
                                  practical side, I hope your mother sees an attorney ASAP. And especially
                                  considering her recent heart attack, I hope she's at least filled in her
                                  family doctor about what's going on, maybe he or she might also think some
                                  professional counseling is needed here. For you, too. Especially
                                  because you seem to be so extremely upset, and that may prevent you from
                                  being able to focus on the best way to handle this with your children.

                                  Unfortunately, marriages *do* break up every day. Because of the cult's
                                  influence in this one, it's maybe a bit more difficult than a "normal"
                                  breakup.

                                  Anyway, what I've been thinking is that it's not unlikely that your father
                                  hasn't been totally happy about his marriage for many years. Now, this
                                  *does* happen, and often maybe even the spouse has *no* idea there's
                                  something "wrong", or at least missing, from the other person's point of
                                  view. And with your father, well...I can imagine how he felt, being
                                  unable to share "the eck" with his wife - quite often, "the eck" is the
                                  most important thing in the universe to the cult member, and it takes
                                  precedence over a marriage, especially in a marriage to a non-eckist.

                                  So, your father's been escaping to his fantasy world for a long time,
                                  instead of focusing on his love and commitment to his wife and family, and
                                  keeping it alive and fulfilling, and fresh and "new". You and your mother
                                  didn't notice anything "wrong", but maybe your father had just been just
                                  "going through the motions" for a long time.

                                  I was really hoping that he'd be willing to at least talk to someone in
                                  the cult, and at least consider the possibility that he hasn't made the
                                  best decision about what to do about this whole thing.

                                  There are always many possibilities. I can see why he's convinced himself
                                  that his karma with his family is over, and that he needs to be with this
                                  other woman to "grow spiritually". That's what he *wants* to believe.
                                  Quite often, those "inner messages" from "the mahanta" are simply
                                  fantasies, and a good way for the cult members to justify just about
                                  *anything*. I'm sure he wouldn't want to consider the possibility that
                                  maybe this situation is one he's faced in previous incarnations, and maybe
                                  he's just making the same mistake he's made before? Maybe the *real*
                                  lesson here was supposed to be that he should have exercised some self-
                                  control?

                                  He's on an emotional high right now. Maybe what brought him and the other
                                  woman together wasn't some kind of high-holey-soulmate thing. In his
                                  heart, he wanted an eckist wife and family. And this woman was "looking",
                                  too. You know, I just remembered another "eckmarriage" - it's mentioned
                                  at: http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/handout8.html along
                                  with a few other examples of wacky "eckthink". This particular
                                  eckmarriage fell apart, too. And it's quite likely that once your
                                  father's with this new woman for awhile, and the newness of it all wears
                                  off, he's going to find himself in the same situation he found himself in
                                  with your mother, feeling there's something "more", that the grass might
                                  be greener elsewhere.

                                  I wonder, though - did your father really expect that the family he's
                                  deserting was going to understand and support him in this? And go along
                                  with all that "spirichul" stuff, and think it's just all peachy-keen?

                                  Lillia, as hard as it is, you need to focus on accepting what's going to
                                  happen, and just do what you need to do to get through this and move on as
                                  best as you can, and not let it ruin your life. You all need to support
                                  each other right now, and look ahead to the future. No, things will
                                  *never* be the same - but life can and *must* go forward, and it's up to
                                  you to decide what your future is going to be. Do you want to spend the
                                  rest of your life under a dark cloud? I don't think so. Life often
                                  brings unpleasant situations and surprises, doesn't it? Not much we can
                                  do about it, but just try to do the best we can to deal with whatever hits
                                  the fan.

                                  Can't really think of anything else to say right now.

                                  Hugs,

                                  Sharon
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