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Re: Things that make you go hmmmmmm

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  • phebs04255
    Yes sword I did, and thank you so much for your input..I have given my ex a lot of information from various places, I have explained to him what I know and
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 30, 2004
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      Yes sword I did, and thank you so much for your input..I have given my ex a lot of
      information from various places, I have explained to him what I know and what I have
      come across...so tonight I asked him, what level of initiation is she? He said he couldn't
      say that it wasn't his place, and he wouldn't....I was very taken aback by that...she keeps
      telling him this isnt a cult and she would never be mind controlled....the sad part is, he is
      believing her and what she says...it saddens me...he said he wants more information, well
      jeepers how much more can i send him...I dont want Harold Klemp hangin on a wall or
      being involved in my childrens lives...

      Thanks Sword
      Wendy



      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <Paul@V...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Wendy,
      >
      >
      >
      > I have been having a little problem wit my email....Did you get my response
      > last night ?
      >
      >
      >
      > Sword
      >
      > _____
    • Elizabeth
      ... him she would never let anyone use mind control on her and that Eckankar isnt a cult, *** Well, I found myself several years ago, claiming the same thing.
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 1, 2004
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        phebs04255 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        >....My ex husbands girlfriend has told
        him she would never let anyone use mind control on her and that Eckankar isnt a cult,

        *** Well,  I found myself several years ago, claiming the same thing.  I was a successful business women, and halfway intelligent.....  how could I possibly be involved in a mind controlling cult?  Here is a list of web sites you might want to check out and forward to your ex.  I suppose a person could say there are various levels of cultish groups, and some are not as bad as others?  Yet I now believe if it ain't free, it ain't for me!  I follow my own heart/path and know that I do not need anyone else to save me from my karma, sins, or what ever, and they are not my only way to god.....    ;-)

        Freedom of Mind Web Site
        Direct link to this web sites list of CULTS.... check out the rest of their site too!
        http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/

         

        Sarlo's Guru Rating Service
        a compilation of mostly non-mainstream religious leaders
        http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ratings.htm

         

        reFocus
        Recovering Former Cultists Support Network; Lists in detail the Characteristics of a Destructive Cult
        http://www.refocus.org/charcult.html

         

        Survivors Of Spiritual Abuse
        A resource for anyone who has been abused in any way in the name of a religion or spiritual belief. By spiritual and religious abuse, we mean abuse done in the name of, brought on by, or attributed to a belief system of the abuser or abuse from a religious leader. This can include Priests, Ministers, cult members, family members, or anyone abusing in the name of a deity or perceived deity.
        http://sosa.org/index.asp

         

        Spiritual Guides: Pass Or Fail?
        Although guidelines have been proposed by several religious groups to help would-be seekers decide which path or guru is the highest, almost all of them suffer from a clear case of what sociologists and anthropologists now call ethnocentrism (the tendency to see other people, cultures, religions, solely in terms of one's own world view). Surely, no critical guide will be exempt from a certain amount of prejudice or bias, but it can be minimized if the template we employ to appraise masters and new movements is drawn from transcultural sources and is interdisciplinary in scope.
        http://www.geocities.com/the_wanderling/guides.html

         

        >she said she is not a die hard eckist...so whats the difference? is there a difference, well to me
        there isn't a difference between die hards and not...an eckist is an eckist and she has been
        involved in this for 20 years...

        ***  Well I would have to say the answer to this question can be yes and no.  Ask your ex to ask her what the difference is to her.

          She may say that she would never push her beliefs on anyone, or that she would allow your ex to follow what ever path he wishes.  But the fact of the matter is, most that say this (and they are schooled on how to say this), are in fact kidding themselves!  What is she looking for in a relationship?  Will she expect your ex to join her at seminars, regionals, workshops etc... will she eventually ask him to join and start reading the discourses, with the option to not continue after two years if it isn't his cup of tea.  Will she hope that if he does, he will take his second initiation within the teachings?  That is one of the important initiations according to the path.  That is when the student basically is told they will have the love and protection of the Mahanta.  This is the goal and mission eckist are asked to accomplish.  They are to be the missionaries, bring new people to the path so that they will join and pay their membership dues. (It's all about money in these groups!)  The org claims that the Mahanta has made the way available, that the seeker is waiting to hear about the path. And it is her (their) duty to place the seeker before the mahanta.  

        Will she claim to be (and all members are) one of the chosen few, and will she state that even if he doesn't become a member, at least now he has been made aware of the eck and the mahanta, and in his next life time, he (soul) will recognize the mahanta and join.   Will she be comfortable as she claims she is currently in the relationship (only because she has his attention and able to share her path) will she be okay with continuing the relationship if he says "hey this isn't for me".?  Will she remain dedicated to the Org, yet later down the road feel as if the relationship is lacking because they do not share similar conversations or activities....  because after all, as an H.I. (which I believe she is, because she doesn't want to divulge her initiation level.  Yet I believe she has told him, and is attempting to make him feel as if she shared a secret she shouldn't... so in her mind she will be able to put his fears aside and be *one up* on you!)    Believe it or not, this is a control tactic taught to the members via the books, discourses, and talks they hear repeatedly, and yet she doesn't recognize this as a cultist attempt? 

        Is this women also divorced, and does she have children?  Does she have them involved in the teachings as actively as she is?  And why if she is divorced, what was the reason for the divorce and was her ex also an eckist or not?  Maybe this matters, maybe not?   I was married to two eckist... and they lacked all morals and ethics, were abusive, and one didn't want to be a father because it would keep him from his spiritual goals! Contradictory to what the path claims eckist are!  Met my current husband, who IS NOT AN ECKIST, yet was open minded enough not to harp on me about this path.  He let me do what I thought I needed to do....  And yes, I was one of those H.I.'s that did not push him to join, or follow the path!  I never discussed it with him unless he asked.  It was because of him and his unconditional love, that I was able to start looking at this path with open eyes.  Took those blue colored glasses off  ;-)   and saw it for what it really was.  

        >hmmmm, the thing is, he would listen to her but I have intervened and I am giving him as much information as I can.....I just don't like the fact where my kids
        are concerned.....

        *** One of the reasons I asked if she has kids, and if so their ages?  If she thinks there would be a chance to save him and his kids at the same time, this would be one way of doing it, through her kids and yours... have them hang out together, go to eck activities together, after all the seminars have wonderful activities for the youth....  ;-)  Next she may even attempt to claim you are working for the kal, and trying to keep him from the most advanced and only *real* path back to god.  Will she honestly let him follow any other path with complete respect? 

        Liz

      • brighttigress@yahoo.com
        ... There s probably not much I can add to what Sword & Liz responded...but I will anyway! ... And that s probably just about all you can do. The rest
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 2, 2004
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          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, phebs04255 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Yes sword I did, and thank you so much for your input..

          There's probably not much I can add to what Sword & Liz responded...but I
          will anyway! <gg>


          > I have given my ex a lot of
          > information from various places, I have explained to him what I know and
          > what I have
          > come across...

          And that's probably just about all you can do. The rest is up to him.


          > so tonight I asked him, what level of initiation is she? He said he
          > couldn't say that it wasn't his place, and he wouldn't....I was very
          > taken aback by that...

          It's sort of funny how although the "teachings" say that initiation levels
          are supposed to be kept secret, they're not! Not only do eckists discuss
          them personally among themselves - and I was *very* surprised when after
          some years in, so many others were always asking what initiation I was -
          but the members-only quarterly newsletter posts photos of people with
          their initiation levels, and even prints lists of who got "whatever" high
          initiation at seminars!

          Like, they printed when Mrs. Klemps #1 and #2 got their 6th, 7th, or 8th
          at a seminar - sort of surprised me, since when Klemp divorced #1, he
          blamed it on her inability to handle with his masterly power flows. <gg>
          I thought that was odd at the time, because I'd been "taught" that "the
          master" kept all the chelas balanced, except of course unless they weren't
          willing, didn't "surrender" enough or something. When he remarried,
          naturally I assumed that #2 must be "higher" spiritually or something.

          It made a *lot* more sense to me when I got out, and learned that it was
          all basically b.s. - what happened is Klemp had an affair with his adoring
          secretary, don't know if she's younger than #1 but she's definitely more
          attractive. He even traveled quite openly with her to seminars while he
          was still married! So like many middle-aged men, he dumped the family &
          married the mistress.

          Doug Kunin, cult attorney & HI, did the same thing - dumped the wife &
          kids and married his office-girl mistress.

          Anyway, this helped to make sense of one of Klemp's letters to the
          members, where he told them the bed-hopping at cult seminars had to stop
          because it was giving potential new members a bad impression. I guess this
          was a case of "Do as I say, not as I do!" <gg> And after this, a friend of
          mine started dating an eckist from a nearby eckgroup, and I was *shocked*
          at the stories she told me about the bed-hopping & stuff, it seemed
          practically incestuous!

          I eventually got the impression that in general, eckmarriages might have a
          worse failure rate than the rest of the country!


          > she keeps telling him this isnt a cult and she would never be mind
          > controlled....

          *All* cult members say this! I did too, didn't even realize how deeply I
          was being controlled until quite awhile after I got out.


          > the sad part is, he is
          > believing her and what she says...
          > it saddens me...he said he wants more
          > information, well
          > jeepers how much more can i send him...

          I think there's more than enough information on the internet right now, at
          the eck-specific websites in the "links" section and the info in the
          "files". But the bottom line is, he's going to believe what he wants to
          believe in spite of the evidence. And there's nothing you can do, other
          than what you've already done.


          >I dont want Harold Klemp hangin on a wall or
          > being involved in my childrens lives...
          >

          I feel that way about a lot of things on TV, and in society in general!
          <gg> Just the other day, I was chatting with my daughter-in-law and
          another young friend, mother of a three-year-old who's considering home-
          schooling him, about how I felt the hardest part of parenting, for me, was
          undoing all the stuff kids pick up elsewhere. And not necessarily just
          undoing it, but trying to give my kids what they needed to have some
          common sense and generally good judgment about just about everything.

          Anyway, I've been giving your situation a lot of thought. I think we
          maybe need to give our kids more credit for being able to think for
          themselves, and hopefully your daughters will even in the future be able
          to exercise some discernment. I think they're less likely to be strongly
          influenced towards e-kult than they would be if this woman belonged to one
          of those fundamentalist born-again evangelical Christian groups, or
          something like $cientology. A lot of e-kult's "teachings" are sort of
          things that only "work" on a personal, individual level - there's a lot of
          "self-brainwashing", actually. Sure, there are kiddie discourses - and
          over the years the cult has been focusing more & more on things to
          influence young people more strongly, but so far I don't think they're a
          strong influence on the majority of eckist children.

          On the other hand, many former members got tangled up in it when they were
          young, teenagers even. But I think a lot of the appeal to young people
          was because it seemed "different", and appealed to the natural rebellion
          young people often have.

          I think perhaps it might help more to make less of a big issue about it,
          especially around the girls. Your strong objections might actually push
          your husband *towards* it. And your daughters do *not* need any more
          stress than they've already experienced from the divorce. Kids aren't
          stupid, I think you can de-fuse any possible future harm by simply telling
          them the basics - that eckankar was started by a guy who copied a lot of
          stuff from other religions and other people's books, and lied and said
          that he got this information from made-up "guardian angel" type beings.

          And show them a picture of Klemp, and tell them that eckists believe this
          man controls the weather and the whole universe, and that he's God on
          Earth. Heck, you can even get a bit down & dirty - tell them the facts,
          that Klemp had a little girl but left her and her mommy for a new
          girlfriend. I read one of his stories, can't find the darn thing -one of
          the usual dumb stories, but in this one, something *really* struck me. He
          started this story by saying words to the effect that he had *heard* about
          his daughter's graduation from high school. This was a *very* small
          thing, but this really jumped out at me - I'd assumed that in spite of the
          divorce he'd stayed close to his daughter over the years. Well...if that
          was the case, why did he say he'd *heard* about his daughter's graduation?
          Do you see what I mean here? It was just a little comment, something
          probably no one noticed or thought about. But whether parents are
          together or not, if a parent is really involved in their child's life even
          though they're divorced, if they're telling a story about graduation,
          would they use the word "heard" about it? That, in my opinion, shows a
          lot of distance and *not* involvement! You know, one of those "Freudian
          slip" type things.

          I understand this is all very upsetting, and divorces are hard enough,
          especially on the kids, even when a cult's not involved. What I think is
          most important is that you just go on being the best mother you can be,
          giving the girls a happy and peaceful home and a good life, helping them
          to learn everything they need to learn to get along in life and make good
          choices, etc.

          You know, even if the worst-case scenario happens and your husband ends up
          joining the cult & being with this woman, well...even if you'd end up
          going to court to get a ruling to protect your daughters from this
          nonsense, I doubt if they'd rule in your favor. Heck, even if your
          husband would get involved in something obviously *really* wacky, like the
          Hare Krishnas, and he shaved his head and started wearing robes and
          chanting and selling flowers at airports (do they still do that?), and
          took the girls to his ashram on his visitation days, I don't think that
          would be enough to interfere with his legal parental rights.

          Right now I think the best thing you can do is just sort of "chill", and
          wait to see what happens and what he does.

          Take care, and keep in touch!

          Hugs,

          Sharon
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