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Re: My Feelings On The HCS Issue

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  • colleenmft
    ... who d ... not ... a sanitized and ... Eckankar, ... Mat/Radhasoami ... and false ... (yours as well as mine - pure opinions, not truth in any case)! To
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 31, 2004
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      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Gabrielle Renard
      <gabriellerenard@y...> wrote:
      > Hi Sharon and everyone,
      >
      > brighttigress@y... wrote:
      > It's not surprising that a cult "high initiate", especially one
      who'd
      > achieved Johnson's "celebrity" status, would move very quickly and
      not
      > only publish a book, but set up his own organization -
      a "sanitized" and
      > "de-mastered" version of Eckankar. In addition to debunking
      Eckankar,
      > he's also taken it upon himself to "awaken" members of Sant
      Mat/Radhasoami
      > and Christianity, which according to his book are "lower"
      and "false"
      > teachings.
      >
      > ***** I don't think he said that. That's interpretation, Sharon
      (yours as well as mine - pure opinions, not truth in any case)!

      To help clarify the statements above, consider the following quote
      from the HCS site included in the recent 13 page complaint against
      me:
      "HCS is not a religion, not a path, and certainly not a cult. It is
      a gathering place of like-minded spiritually evolved individuals who
      have come to understand that we no longer need a master or other
      spiritual intercessor to get us to God. We are, in fact, God of
      itself, individuated and becoming more and more aware of our own
      divinity every day. Our mission is to help those truth seekers who
      have evolved beyond religion to realize that divinity within
      themselves. We welcome your participation and assistance in helping
      us achieve this, and are certainly not in competition with you or
      anyone else….

      HCS

      Notice the words "gathering place of like-minded spiritually evolved
      individuals", and "our mission is to help those truth seekers who
      have evolved beyond religion."

      Colleen
    • Elizabeth
      Gabrielle Renard wrote: ***** As this is true, he wanted to give an opportunity to former members. It s not enough to destroy a
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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        Gabrielle Renard <gabriellerenard@...> wrote:

        ***** As this is true, he wanted to give an opportunity to former members. It's not enough to destroy a belief system that worked for many of us and not to offer something in return.

        <snip>

        ***** Well, let's see if your group or any other ex-eckankar group is a good alternative ...:)

         

        $$$$$  I could be wrong but didn't Ford claim he started the group so that those that read his book had a place to go on the Internet as a community sort of chat group?  A safe haven...

             I recall reading on his BB's that he never thought the response to his book would be so overwhelming, that so many would jump on the HCS band wagon train?  (my words) So keep those donations coming in so he can create a bigger, better web site, get the great work out there....

            I listened to Harold's talk last weekend from the WW seminar.  And he did mention that not many H.I.'s were leaving the Org.  He basically gave an estimate of the trend, with those that join and how long they stay.  

           His reasons for why H.I.'s leave the path;  The biggie was EGO,  and as he spoke further on that topic it became pretty clear who he was speaking about.  If there is anyone else here that had a listen, maybe they can elaborate?   But even Harold, in his struggle to maintain Mahantaship this past year and a half, could see the Fordji ego and where it was going.  I see Just a couple guys fighting for the recognition, membership, and money.  (Isn't that EGO?) Similar in a way, to the Harji / Darji battle.

            If Ford and Co's. intentions were not to create another eckankar, than why is he taking his *great work* show on the road....  Vegas of all $$$$$ places? 

           As for the other ex-eck groups on the net being a good alternative to HCS;  one huge thing that stands out for me in comparison is, those that have these sorts of groups are not collecting money! We use our own personal time to share, and research.  We have no plans to create an alternative spiritual path.....   we are sick of money grubbing cultic gurus and masters taking people's hard earned money and turning a profit from it.   We are our own master, guru, god, goddess!!! 

        Sure, Sure, Fordji claims his mission is to teach others that they are their own Master, Guru, higher power or what ever.....     so why create a society to share that?  This is not some new information just because he came up with it for himself.   Writing the book Confessions, and exposing the truth behind eckankar is one thing, but the rest is all just another group spewing the same ol stuff, most of us can find on our own if we do a goggle search free of charge!

        Bottom line; Think and hear for yourself, disentangle and detach from spiritual co-dependency. 
         

        Below is an article I found that if anyone has bothered to read thus far, might be interested in! 

         

        Spiritual Co-Dependence
        The Dangers of Being Guided by External Prophecy and Revelation

        B Y  J A N E T  B O Y E R

        I HAVE SEEN SO MANY LIVES SHIPWRECKED because an individual decides to guide her life and decisions by a prophetic "word" or utterance given by another. In the Christian Pentecostal and Charismatic traditions, this can be in the form of "Thus saith the Lord", or "I have a word for you", or "God is telling me..." In New Age circles, revelation often comes through a means of divination like Tarot, runes, or channeling or some other "psychic" method.

        Many people who seek out "words" and psychics do so because they are in some kind of emotional, physical, or financial turmoil. They desperately want answers as to why they are suffering, or they want to know the future. It then becomes very easy for some to depend on outside sources to find out their life path and what they should do in life. In Christian circles, those who are deemed as "prophets" or "anointed" ministers are usually not to be questioned: what they bring forth is from God, and if God said it, who are you to argue? Even the use of Scripture is used to bolster this mindset. The most notable passage is I Chronicles 16:22 "Touch not Mine anointed and do My prophets no harm". Some use this verse as a way to shut down any inquiry of the minister or the revelation they are bringing forth. Thus, fear is used to keep people in line, and keep them obedient.

        Still others think that if a minister or psychic brings forth information or knowledge previously unknown to the spiritual leader, this makes them an accurate source for spiritual revelation. And so these respected "spiritual" folks speak for God/the Divine and people begin to trust them. Some go so far as to hang on to every word that comes out of a prophet or channel's mouth. There is no questioning or seeking the Divine for self. "After all, didn't God just speak to me through another?"

        The danger in this is the abdication of our will and our ability to think for ourselves. We become spiritual co-dependents. When we hand over our will to another, and these "words" are our guiding source, we are following an agenda. The question is whose agenda is it? This brings up the question "From whence do prophets and psychics get their information?" Traditional Christians would say all prophets and "anointed" ministers get their information straight from God. As such, the information they bring forth can be banked on and is safe to follow. Yet, I know an individual who married a minister only because someone prophesied to her that she was to marry a minister. It's been an unhappy marriage of 18 years, and this minister that she married has been verbally abusive, deceitful, engages in cybersex, and has now abandoned his family.

        Another example is when my first husband was diagnosed with leukemia. We received "prophecies" that he would be healed and go on to great things in ministry. This did not happen (he died within a year of diagnosis), and it really shook a lot of people's faith - including my own at the time. Is this process the will of God? Some may say yes, some may say no. Regardless, the point is that if we make decisions based solely on what another fallible human being says, we are abdicating our will and letting another choose for us. Even if we take to heart sacred Scriptures like the Bible and follow it blindly without examination or questioning, we can be finding ourselves in the same situation. In this case, we've abdicated our will and thought processes to the written word - often at the expense of the spirit of the passage. II Corinthians 3:6 says "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life." Even the Apostle Paul commended the Bereans for checking out everything he taught to see if it lined up with their belief system.

        In New Age circles, the beliefs about where information and revelation comes from are varied. Some possible sources include channeled entities or aliens, departed love ones, God, or Higher Self. Still others believe that we are made up of energy, and as such, our thoughts, emotions, and intent are energy, as well. When we use telepathy, or "pick up" information, we're just reading cosmic information in the energy field. And some believe that information is gleaned by the collective unconscious or by reading the Akashic Records.

        Those in New Age circles are just as prone to abdicate their will. Some read channeled materials as if it's an infallible sacred text. Others depend on Tarot card readers, psychics, and astrologers to map their life, and advise them of their "best choice". Some are so paralyzed by a lack of will and mistrust of their own decision-making capabilities that they govern their whole lives by the stars or by the cards. As a result, self-responsibility goes out the window. If I don't have to think for myself, then I won't be responsible for what happens. Or, if something goes terribly wrong, it's the fault of the astrologer or card reader, or even God.

        Quick Fixes
        I've had people come to me wanting to fix their problems and their life. They have consistently made choices over the years to get them where they are at, but I'm expected to undo their choices and make it all better? Unfortunately, this is also how many relate to God/The Divine: the great Fixer-Upper in the Sky that will pluck me out of my mangled situation like some deus ex machina. It would probably be more accurate to say that these types of individuals live their life on auto-pilot, being bounced around like an emotional pinball machine, reacting to unconscious patterns set up by nature, nurture, and reinforcement of those influences. If you think about it, there really isn't true choice without awareness. I don't know what it is about humans that makes us so stubborn and hard-headed at times, but it seems like it's the "school of hard knocks" that teaches us lasting lessons and snaps us out of self-destructive patterns, apathy, and auto-pilot living. This is why a prophetic word or prophecy or psychic reading isn't enough for some people: they are still making the same choices they always have made, and are thus reaping the same life they've always been living. I once heard that one definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over, and expect a different result. Even Einstein said that a problem cannot be solved at the level in which is created.

        And this presents a Catch-22: if it's true that a problem cannot be solved at the level it was created, then wouldn't new or additional information help us? Maybe. But if you take the revelatory information and apply it within your existing belief systems and personality patterns, you'll probably still be getting more of the same. Often what is needed is a paradigm shift or a direct experience with the Divine to help us navigate our way through life. Becoming conscious is often arduous work. Unfortunately, many ministers and gurus don't teach this. I mean, it's not exactly popular for a Spiritual Director to say "Well, sorry folks. There's a lot of grunt work involved in becoming conscious. A direct interaction with the Divine will shake your foundation, and tear through your life like a cyclone. Your Ego will kick and scream, and you may even feel like you've lost your spiritual compass." In Christian terms, "Everything that can be shaken, will be shaken" (Hebrews 12:27) and "I will refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested." (Zechariah 13:9). However, this concept was very familiar to Mystics like St. John of the Cross that wrote of the "Dark Night of the Soul" that one often experiences when they directly question God about their life, their choices, and their purpose, and yearn for Divine union more than anything.

        The "hard road" isn't necessarily the best road by default, and an "easy" way isn't necessarily mindless unconsciousness. The more aware and self-responsible you become, the easier it becomes to detach from consequences and realize that you always can always choose again. You don't like where your life is at? Take some conscious actions to define what you really want and where you want to be. Constructing a Life Balance Wheel is a practical tool to use to define what you want, and to visually assess what areas of your life is unsatisfying. Realize that you are a co-creator with God, and as such, you have a responsibility to participate in the act of creation--even if this means getting the heck out of your own way and just be. Every path is different, and what you need, want, and value may be very different than your fellow congregation members, spiritual gurus, or your favorite authors.

        The Practical Divine
        I'm reminded of the story of the guy who was drowning, and he prayed "God, save me!". A raft goes by, and he passes it up, thinking "God will save me!" Then the Coast Guard comes by and he refuses to come aboard saying "God will save me!" Finally, a helicopter hovers by and he says "No thanks. God will save me!" The man drowns, and goes to heaven. He says to God "But why didn't you save me?" and God says "I sent you a raft, a boat, and an helicopter. What more do you want?"

        The tools to aid us in our own growth are often contained in the very things we'd consider mundane "human" or "natural" spheres. Relationships (and how we act and react within them), our attitude towards abundance and money, and even nature itself contains lessons for us. Seeing yourself and life symbolically is another way to live your life as if everything can be a lesson or a tool. Jesus said "Except you become as a little child, you shall not enter the Kingdom of God" and He also said "The Kingdom of God is within you." Even regaining a sense of child-like wonder and living in the moment can change your perspective and your life. You don't see children obsessing about their thighs, or see toddlers worrying about what tomorrow may hold, do you?

        Don't get me wrong: God can speak through prophets, divination, and books. (Just like He/She can use nature and those life lessons.) I've found, especially as one that operates in prophetic gifting, that revelations and information often confirms what I already know. And if a revelation introduces completely new information, I set it on the shelf until it makes sense to me and feels right. In New Testament terms, I let "peace be my umpire". If I never use the information, no biggie. People are fallible, maybe the information will be relevant to someone else, or maybe it's for a future time for me to use and understand. And if God really wants me to know something that I'm oblivious to, I'm sure He/She has multiple sources to get my attention. I can always choose to "be still and know that I am God" and tune into the "still small" voice for myself. But govern my life in blind obeisance to external revelations, channeling, psychic readings, and prophetic words? No way!

        Think and hear for yourself, disentangle and detach from spiritual co-dependency, and know that Kingdom of God is within you.

        � 2003 Janet Boyer

          

      • samorez@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/29/2004 5:44:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, truthdecider1@yahoo.com writes: How was it that you came to know Paul Twitchell? How long were
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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          In a message dated 10/29/2004 5:44:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, truthdecider1@... writes:
          How was it that you came to know Paul Twitchell? How long were
          you in contact with him on a regular basis? Did he seem to start out
          teaching one way, and then change what he was teaching at a certain
          point, or were his teachings with you pretty much consistant?
          I met Paul thru my mother Doris who used to host him at our home when I was around 12. That would be 1963 or so. She was introduced to him by Roy Eugene Davis as an "unemployed writer". Roy has had his own deal for quite a long time. Google him. I was living with my father in Las Vegas in 1966 when my mother took me to the 1st Worldwide at the Tropicana Hotel. It was very small and Gail was the ticket taker. I went on Sunday and it cost me 5 bucks. The first time I saw Paul he was shuffling up the stairs & I thought he was just another tourist. Tom Flamma was in rare form, soul traveling around Mars according to him. After Paul's talk he would give you a reading if you placed your palms on top of his. A couple of years later he gave my wife & I the 2nd initiation, such as it was. I grew up and went to college in S.D. so I had opportunities to run into Paul and Gail and later Darwin from time to time. I performed the first "eck" wedding and was San Diego's Area Rep during the time Colleen and Jerry were very active in L.A. I drifted away from eckankar in the early 80's before the David Lane material came to light. His book was more confirmation of my suspicions. I didn't resent eckankar until I started to understand the true nature of abuse. Now, I'd say I've evened the score and eckankar now resents me! <GG>
           
          If you want more go to Google Groups and do a search under alt.religion.eckankar for posts from samorez. You'll find reams of stuff dating back almost 10 years.
           
          Wow, I must be a glutton for punishment!  

             I'm really interested in hearing back from you. I look forward to
          your next response.
             Take care!
          You take care not to turn your will and your life over to anybody.
           
          Orez
        • colleenmft
          Hi Gary... Gosh, your experience at the very beginning of eckankar is quite revealing,IMO. You were so young...and influenced by your Mom. When you talk about
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 1, 2004
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            Hi Gary...

            Gosh, your experience at the very beginning of eckankar is quite
            revealing,IMO.

            You were so young...and influenced by your Mom. When you talk about
            Twitchell placing his palms on top of whoever wanted a "reading", it
            seems all so commonplace...the "gypsy" or "psychic" type of reading.
            I also remember Tom Flamma and his talks about his "inner journeys".
            He was a well-liked, charismatic, and strong supporter of eckankar.

            At the time, we viewed him and Twitchell with awe...along with Gail,
            who must have been particularly spiritually aware to be Twitchell's
            wife!

            It's to your credit that you recognized the problems on your own. I
            did so, too, in the late '70's, although it took me 7 years later to
            stop my payment.

            The awareness of how one can be "mind-controlled," sometimes takes
            years, in my experience, until one day certain realizations occur
            about one's internalized beliefs, formed from an absolutist group
            and/or one's family of origin dynamics. Sometimes something happens
            in one's life which "wakes a person up", so to speak...and, then one
            may piece together the pieces of the puzzle which kept one bound by
            another individual's or group's influence. Or, new realizations may
            become apparent so one may take steps to stop repeating the trauma.
            At least, this is my experience and observation.

            You state that you've spent 10 years in speaking your truth about
            eckankar and its deception, at least on a.r.e. I believe that
            action is taken as a way in which people gain self-empowerment and
            heal from oppressive and harmful influences. I've been doing the
            same, myself!

            May we all be empowered to speak our truth!

            Colleen

            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, samorez@a... wrote:
            > In a message dated 10/29/2004 5:44:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
            > truthdecider1@y... writes:
            >
            > How was it that you came to know Paul Twitchell? How long were
            > you in contact with him on a regular basis? Did he seem to start
            out
            > teaching one way, and then change what he was teaching at a
            certain
            > point, or were his teachings with you pretty much consistant?
            > I met Paul thru my mother Doris who used to host him at our home
            when I was
            > around 12. That would be 1963 or so. She was introduced to him by
            Roy Eugene
            > Davis as an "unemployed writer". Roy has had his own deal for
            quite a long
            > time. Google him. I was living with my father in Las Vegas in 1966
            when my
            > mother took me to the 1st Worldwide at the Tropicana Hotel. It was
            very small and
            > Gail was the ticket taker. I went on Sunday and it cost me 5
            bucks. The
            > first time I saw Paul he was shuffling up the stairs & I thought
            he was just
            > another tourist. Tom Flamma was in rare form, soul traveling
            around Mars
            > according to him. After Paul's talk he would give you a reading if
            you placed your
            > palms on top of his. A couple of years later he gave my wife & I
            the 2nd
            > initiation, such as it was. I grew up and went to college in S.D.
            so I had
            > opportunities to run into Paul and Gail and later Darwin from time
            to time. I
            > performed the first "eck" wedding and was San Diego's Area Rep
            during the time
            > Colleen and Jerry were very active in L.A. I drifted away from
            eckankar in the
            > early 80's before the David Lane material came to light. His book
            was more
            > confirmation of my suspicions. I didn't resent eckankar until I
            started to
            > understand the true nature of abuse. Now, I'd say I've evened the
            score and eckankar
            > now resents me! <GG>
            >
            > If you want more go to Google Groups and do a search under
            > alt.religion.eckankar for posts from samorez. You'll find reams of
            stuff dating back almost 10
            > years.
            >
            > Wow, I must be a glutton for punishment!
            >
            >
            > I'm really interested in hearing back from you. I look forward to
            > your next response.
            > Take care!
            >
            >
            > You take care not to turn your will and your life over to anybody.
            >
            > Orez
          • Gabrielle Renard
            Elizabeth wrote: I listened to Harold s talk last weekend from the WW seminar. And he did mention that not many H.I. s were
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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              Elizabeth <whitefeatherliz@...> wrote:


                  I listened to Harold's talk last weekend from the WW seminar.  And he did mention that not many H.I.'s were leaving the Org.  He basically gave an estimate of the trend, with those that join and how long they stay.  

                 His reasons for why H.I.'s leave the path;  The biggie was EGO,  and as he spoke further on that topic it became pretty clear who he was speaking about. 

              ***** Well, that's quite obvious, isn't it? He has to. ;) This does not mean that he has understood. 

                 As for the other ex-eck groups on the net being a good alternative to HCS;  one huge thing that stands out for me in comparison is, those that have these sorts of groups are not collecting money!

              ***** So this means that those groups are automatically more "spiritual" (whatever this means ...) ?

              We are our own master, guru, god, goddess!!! 

              ***** This is great - and how exactly do you live that? I would be very much interested in how you live life "after". But all I can feel here is a lot of negativity and stuff about eckankar or hcs or whatever ...

              Bottom line; Think and hear for yourself, disentangle and detach from spiritual co-dependency. 

              ***** And how did/do you achieve that? If you care I would be most happy to read it in your own words.
               


              Do you Yahoo!?
              Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
            • samorez@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/1/2004 6:45:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, colleenmft@yahoo.com writes: Hi Gary... Gosh, your experience at the very beginning of eckankar
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 2, 2004
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                In a message dated 11/1/2004 6:45:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, colleenmft@... writes:

                Hi Gary...

                Gosh, your experience at the very beginning of eckankar is quite
                revealing,IMO.

                You were so young...and influenced by your Mom.  When you talk about
                Twitchell placing his palms on top of whoever wanted a "reading", it
                seems all so commonplace...the "gypsy" or "psychic" type of reading.
                I also remember Tom Flamma and his talks about his "inner journeys".
                He was a well-liked, charismatic, and strong supporter of eckankar. 
                Correction. It was Flamma who did the "palm to palm" readings. I remember I was next in line but he was hungry and stopped for lunch. Maybe he would have told me to run away like my hair was on fire! Lol...


                At the time, we viewed him and Twitchell with awe...along with Gail,
                who must have been particularly spiritually aware to be Twitchell's
                wife!
                Oh, yeah. She was high on the worship scale. I remember she came by the house with a load of Sunasu vitamins. I saw her outside and rather than run out and help her, I scurried around to find a shirt to put on. Didn't want to offend the God Lady! Oh, man....


                It's to your credit that you recognized the problems on your own.  I
                did so, too, in the late '70's, although it took me 7 years later to
                stop my payment.

                The awareness of how one can be "mind-controlled,"  sometimes takes
                years, in my experience, until one day certain realizations occur
                about one's internalized beliefs, formed from an absolutist group
                and/or one's family of origin dynamics.  Sometimes something happens
                in one's life which "wakes a person up", so to speak...and, then one
                may piece together the pieces of the puzzle which kept one bound by
                another individual's or group's influence. Or, new realizations may
                become apparent so one may take steps to stop repeating the trauma.
                At least, this is my experience and observation.

                You state that you've spent 10 years in speaking your truth about
                eckankar and its deception, at least on a.r.e.  I believe that
                action is taken as a way in which people gain self-empowerment and
                heal from oppressive and harmful influences.  I've been doing the
                same, myself!

                May we all be empowered to speak our truth!
                 
              • brighttigress@yahoo.com
                ... Okay, *this* is the one I was looking for to comment one, ended up making comments on the previous which I didn t want to, haven t even checked my email
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 3, 2004
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                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Elizabeth <whitefeatherliz@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >

                  Okay, *this* is the one I was looking for to comment one, ended up making
                  comments on the previous which I didn't want to, haven't even checked my
                  email yet..


                  > Gabrielle Renard <gabriellerenard@y...> wrote:
                  > ***** As this is true, he wanted to give an opportunity to former
                  members. It's not enough to destroy a belief system that worked for many
                  of us and not to offer something in return.
                  >
                  > <snip>

                  Yeah, he'd like you to believe that!!!

                  This is what I mean about Fordji's disrespecting people's intelligence,
                  treating them like helpless children after the washing-machine-monster
                  eats the last little piece of Fuzzy Blankie or something!

                  Whether it's blue or pink, a security blanket is a security blanket.

                  And that's why I don't really give a rat's ass about people who go from e-
                  kult to Higher Con - they're happy as cult members, what difference does
                  it make?

                  My concern is just that the information is available for people who *do*
                  want the truth, and are perfectly capable of making up their own minds.

                  If they want to stay with one lie or another, well... <shrug>

                  Isn't offering the freedom to make your own decisions enough? You want
                  multiple choices or something? Well...they're here!!! I've suggested
                  different things to look at, at times.

                  Fer crissakes, this is just like abused women who *do* manage to survive
                  and get away, and marry *another* abuser!!!! They're serial masochists!!

                  When you get a toothache, do you need something to replace the pain?

                  If you're going along in life feeling happily healthy but then discover a
                  tumor and get it removed, hopefully before it's metastasized elsewhere...
                  do you want to replace the tumor?


                  >
                  > ***** Well, let's see if your group or any other ex-eckankar group is a
                  good alternative ...:)
                  >

                  Oh, fer crissakes!

                  This is what *kills* me!!! It's something only true-blue eckies usually
                  think of - how can someone *possibly* have a life where they don't BELONG
                  to something or follow someone!!!

                  This is a fricken internet chat group, not a "spiritual path"!!


                  >
                  > $$$$$ I could be wrong but didn't Ford claim he started the group so
                  that those that read his book had a place to go on the Internet as a
                  community sort of chat group? A safe haven...
                  >

                  Not sure who's writing what here...

                  But yeah, thank ALL THAT IS for inspiring Fordji (via "TS" or Albert) to
                  not only protect the poor widdle lambies from not only big bad Harold, but
                  from those horrible lost survivors who do not need to have their hands
                  held, and bedtime stories chosen for them?


                  > I recall reading on his BB's that he never thought the response to
                  his book would be so overwhelming, that so many would jump on the HCS band
                  wagon train? (my words) So keep those donations coming in so he can
                  create a bigger, better web site, get the great work out there....
                  >

                  <snort> Yeah, he's marketing the ones that didn't sell as some kind of
                  speshul autographed collector's editions!

                  And since not everyone is willing to fork over the bucks for a hard copy,
                  he started offering a cheaper e-book version.

                  You know, I think the New Messiah *really* thought he'd have lots of
                  Christians and Radhasoami Satsangers flocking to his feet for
                  indoctrination into the New Spiritual Paradigm, so they could all sign up
                  for the Great Work of multi-level-marketing booksharing!!!!

                  Maybe he'll start selling vitamins and jewelry!! And t-shirts and bumper
                  stickers!! He's copied everything else from the Twitchster, hasn't he?

                  You know, I think a lot of newbie exies aren't familiar with a lot of that
                  old Twitch stuff I haven't been posting. Like this cutesie from one of
                  Twitch's original discourse series, "Letters to a Chela":

                  "In the same way that one serves the ECK by putting the name forward in
                  signs, bumper stickers, T-shirts, jewelry, etc., and makes the name
                  common, so too can those serve who have only money to give and cannot go
                  about actively."

                  Which brings me to another one of my favorites:

                  "When one is bedridden, it is still possible to send blessings to all.
                  The attention placed on an individual, group or nation with the blessing
                  inherent aids the individual in unknown ways and opens the capacity of the
                  one blessing. In just such ways are the savages of unknown jungles and
                  persons one will never meet uplifted for a moment by someone unknown to
                  them."


                  Bwahahahahahaha!! Gawd, I *love* this crap!!! What a hoot!!!!
                  "Savages of unknown jungles"!!!! PUH-LEEZE!!!!!!!!!!!!


                  > I listened to Harold's talk last weekend from the WW seminar. And
                  he did mention that not many H.I.'s were leaving the Org. He basically
                  gave an estimate of the trend, with those that join and how long they
                  stay.
                  >

                  You can't believe *anything* Klemp says about *any* membership numbers.



                  > His reasons for why H.I.'s leave the path; The biggie was EGO, and
                  as he spoke further on that topic it became pretty clear who he was
                  speaking about. If there is anyone else here that had a listen, maybe
                  they can elaborate? But even Harold, in his struggle to maintain
                  Mahantaship this past year and a half, could see the Fordji ego and where
                  it was going. I see Just a couple guys fighting for the recognition,
                  membership, and money. (Isn't that EGO?) Similar in a way, to the Harji /
                  Darji battle.
                  >

                  You know, I wondered about that - how so many "bad ones" got speshully
                  chozen and given them thar "high initiations" - well, if they've got ego
                  problems then perhaps the cult oughtta stop *stroking* those egos to
                  inspire them to get out there and do those poster routes and intros, and
                  be "good neighbors" to all lost non-eckies, etc.

                  Fordji is doing the SAME thing - telling Higher Conners they need to be
                  Great Workers and start lending out books to those who are "ready", and
                  keep track of it all, get 'em involved in groups - speakers will be
                  provided - I forget Fordji's recommended time limit, I just remember a big
                  Jehovah's Witness membership push where newbies had to get baptized by the
                  end of the six-month-maximum study of the latest little blue book.



                  > If Ford and Co's. intentions were not to create another eckankar,
                  than why is he taking his *great work* show on the road.... Vegas of all
                  $$$$$ places?
                  >

                  This is hilarious, more hype - fer crissakes, he's just one of many
                  exhibitors at one of those new-age expos, where a whole bunch of people
                  are selling a whole bunch of stuff!!

                  How many people forked over the bucks for his talk?



                  > As for the other ex-eck groups on the net being a good alternative to
                  HCS; one huge thing that stands out for me in comparison is, those that
                  have these sorts of groups are not collecting money! We use our own
                  personal time to share, and research. We have no plans to create an
                  alternative spiritual path..... we are sick of money grubbing cultic
                  gurus and masters taking people's hard earned money and turning a profit
                  from it. We are our own master, guru, god, goddess!!!
                  >

                  Maybe we *should* start collecting money, for a legal defense fund!!!

                  Seriously - I feel sort of bad about Colleen having to pay a lawyer.

                  Okay - I feel better now, but I might watch the news for awhile and
                  maybe give Bush the finger. <gg>

                  The stuff below is worth reading again - Thanks Liz!! I am *so* happy
                  when other people find great stuff like this, which reminds me I *do* want
                  to get a copy of the Deikman book Colleen's quoted, too. When I actually
                  have the desk & stuff set up & start the website work, there's *so* much
                  to compile! Have to sort of laugh, when I started ET I'd planned to
                  follow the late Jan Groenveld's example, because her wonderful jokes &
                  articles helped me so much, but I do much better at ranting & posting
                  embarrassing eckquotes! There's *lots* of good garbage in Fordji's book,
                  too!! Heck, just the "Anti-Graham" posts have lots of potential for
                  ripping-them-to-shreds but I've gotten *so* lazy!!

                  Bye, all!

                  Hugs,

                  Sharon



                  > Sure, Sure, Fordji claims his mission is to teach others that they are
                  their own Master, Guru, higher power or what ever..... so why create
                  a society to share that? This is not some new information just because he
                  came up with it for himself. Writing the book Confessions, and exposing
                  the truth behind eckankar is one thing, but the rest is all just another
                  group spewing the same ol stuff, most of us can find on our own if we do a
                  goggle search free of charge!
                  >
                  > Bottom line; Think and hear for yourself, disentangle and detach from
                  spiritual co-dependency.
                  >
                  >
                  > Below is an article I found that if anyone has bothered to read thus
                  far, might be interested in!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Spiritual Co-Dependence
                  > The Dangers of Being Guided by External Prophecy and Revelation
                  > B Y J A N E T B O Y E R
                  >
                  > I HAVE SEEN SO MANY LIVES SHIPWRECKED because an individual decides to
                  guide her life and decisions by a prophetic "word" or utterance given by
                  another. In the Christian Pentecostal and Charismatic traditions, this can
                  be in the form of "Thus saith the Lord", or "I have a word for you", or
                  "God is telling me..." In New Age circles, revelation often comes through
                  a means of divination like Tarot, runes, or channeling or some other
                  "psychic" method.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Many people who seek out "words" and psychics do so because they are in
                  some kind of emotional, physical, or financial turmoil. They desperately
                  want answers as to why they are suffering, or they want to know the
                  future. It then becomes very easy for some to depend on outside sources to
                  find out their life path and what they should do in life. In Christian
                  circles, those who are deemed as "prophets" or "anointed" ministers are
                  usually not to be questioned: what they bring forth is from God, and if
                  God said it, who are you to argue? Even the use of Scripture is used to
                  bolster this mindset. The most notable passage is I Chronicles 16:22
                  "Touch not Mine anointed and do My prophets no harm". Some use this verse
                  as a way to shut down any inquiry of the minister or the revelation they
                  are bringing forth. Thus, fear is used to keep people in line, and keep
                  them obedient.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Still others think that if a minister or psychic brings forth
                  information or knowledge previously unknown to the spiritual leader, this
                  makes them an accurate source for spiritual revelation. And so these
                  respected "spiritual" folks speak for God/the Divine and people begin to
                  trust them. Some go so far as to hang on to every word that comes out of
                  a prophet or channel's mouth. There is no questioning or seeking the
                  Divine for self. "After all, didn't God just speak to me through another?"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The danger in this is the abdication of our will and our ability to
                  think for ourselves. We become spiritual co-dependents. When we hand over
                  our will to another, and these "words" are our guiding source, we are
                  following an agenda. The question is whose agenda is it? This brings up
                  the question "From whence do prophets and psychics get their information?"
                  Traditional Christians would say all prophets and "anointed" ministers get
                  their information straight from God. As such, the information they bring
                  forth can be banked on and is safe to follow. Yet, I know an individual
                  who married a minister only because someone prophesied to her that she was
                  to marry a minister. It's been an unhappy marriage of 18 years, and this
                  minister that she married has been verbally abusive, deceitful, engages in
                  cybersex, and has now abandoned his family.
                  > Another example is when my first husband was diagnosed with leukemia. We
                  received "prophecies" that he would be healed and go on to great things in
                  ministry. This did not happen (he died within a year of diagnosis), and it
                  really shook a lot of people's faith - including my own at the time. Is
                  this process the will of God? Some may say yes, some may say no.
                  Regardless, the point is that if we make decisions based solely on what
                  another fallible human being says, we are abdicating our will and letting
                  another choose for us. Even if we take to heart sacred Scriptures like the
                  Bible and follow it blindly without examination or questioning, we can be
                  finding ourselves in the same situation. In this case, we've abdicated our
                  will and thought processes to the written word - often at the expense of
                  the spirit of the passage. II Corinthians 3:6 says "The letter kills, but
                  the spirit gives life." Even the Apostle Paul commended the Bereans for
                  checking out everything he taught to see if it
                  > lined up with their belief system.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In New Age circles, the beliefs about where information and revelation
                  comes from are varied. Some possible sources include channeled entities or
                  aliens, departed love ones, God, or Higher Self. Still others believe that
                  we are made up of energy, and as such, our thoughts, emotions, and intent
                  are energy, as well. When we use telepathy, or "pick up" information,
                  we're just reading cosmic information in the energy field. And some
                  believe that information is gleaned by the collective unconscious or by
                  reading the Akashic Records.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Those in New Age circles are just as prone to abdicate their will. Some
                  read channeled materials as if it's an infallible sacred text. Others
                  depend on Tarot card readers, psychics, and astrologers to map their life,
                  and advise them of their "best choice". Some are so paralyzed by a lack of
                  will and mistrust of their own decision-making capabilities that they
                  govern their whole lives by the stars or by the cards. As a result, self-
                  responsibility goes out the window. If I don't have to think for myself,
                  then I won't be responsible for what happens. Or, if something goes
                  terribly wrong, it's the fault of the astrologer or card reader, or even
                  God.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Quick Fixes
                  > I've had people come to me wanting to fix their problems and their life.
                  They have consistently made choices over the years to get them where they
                  are at, but I'm expected to undo their choices and make it all better?
                  Unfortunately, this is also how many relate to God/The Divine: the great
                  Fixer-Upper in the Sky that will pluck me out of my mangled situation like
                  some deus ex machina. It would probably be more accurate to say that these
                  types of individuals live their life on auto-pilot, being bounced around
                  like an emotional pinball machine, reacting to unconscious patterns set up
                  by nature, nurture, and reinforcement of those influences. If you think
                  about it, there really isn't true choice without awareness. I don't know
                  what it is about humans that makes us so stubborn and hard-headed at
                  times, but it seems like it's the "school of hard knocks" that teaches us
                  lasting lessons and snaps us out of self-destructive patterns, apathy, and
                  auto-pilot living. This is why a prophetic
                  > word or prophecy or psychic reading isn't enough for some people: they
                  are still making the same choices they always have made, and are thus
                  reaping the same life they've always been living. I once heard that one
                  definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over, and
                  expect a different result. Even Einstein said that a problem cannot be
                  solved at the level in which is created.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > And this presents a Catch-22: if it's true that a problem cannot be
                  solved at the level it was created, then wouldn't new or additional
                  information help us? Maybe. But if you take the revelatory information and
                  apply it within your existing belief systems and personality patterns,
                  you'll probably still be getting more of the same. Often what is needed is
                  a paradigm shift or a direct experience with the Divine to help us
                  navigate our way through life. Becoming conscious is often arduous work.
                  Unfortunately, many ministers and gurus don't teach this. I mean, it's not
                  exactly popular for a Spiritual Director to say "Well, sorry folks.
                  There's a lot of grunt work involved in becoming conscious. A direct
                  interaction with the Divine will shake your foundation, and tear through
                  your life like a cyclone. Your Ego will kick and scream, and you may even
                  feel like you've lost your spiritual compass." In Christian terms,
                  "Everything that can be shaken, will be shaken" (Hebrews 12:27) and "I
                  will
                  > refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested."
                  (Zechariah 13:9). However, this concept was very familiar to Mystics like
                  St. John of the Cross that wrote of the "Dark Night of the Soul" that one
                  often experiences when they directly question God about their life, their
                  choices, and their purpose, and yearn for Divine union more than anything.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The "hard road" isn't necessarily the best road by default, and an
                  "easy" way isn't necessarily mindless unconsciousness. The more aware and
                  self-responsible you become, the easier it becomes to detach from
                  consequences and realize that you always can always choose again. You
                  don't like where your life is at? Take some conscious actions to define
                  what you really want and where you want to be. Constructing a Life Balance
                  Wheel is a practical tool to use to define what you want, and to visually
                  assess what areas of your life is unsatisfying. Realize that you are a co-
                  creator with God, and as such, you have a responsibility to participate in
                  the act of creation--even if this means getting the heck out of your own
                  way and just be. Every path is different, and what you need, want, and
                  value may be very different than your fellow congregation members,
                  spiritual gurus, or your favorite authors.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Practical Divine
                  > I'm reminded of the story of the guy who was drowning, and he prayed
                  "God, save me!". A raft goes by, and he passes it up, thinking "God will
                  save me!" Then the Coast Guard comes by and he refuses to come aboard
                  saying "God will save me!" Finally, a helicopter hovers by and he says "No
                  thanks. God will save me!" The man drowns, and goes to heaven. He says to
                  God "But why didn't you save me?" and God says "I sent you a raft, a boat,
                  and an helicopter. What more do you want?"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The tools to aid us in our own growth are often contained in the very
                  things we'd consider mundane "human" or "natural" spheres. Relationships
                  (and how we act and react within them), our attitude towards abundance and
                  money, and even nature itself contains lessons for us. Seeing yourself and
                  life symbolically is another way to live your life as if everything can be
                  a lesson or a tool. Jesus said "Except you become as a little child, you
                  shall not enter the Kingdom of God" and He also said "The Kingdom of God
                  is within you." Even regaining a sense of child-like wonder and living in
                  the moment can change your perspective and your life. You don't see
                  children obsessing about their thighs, or see toddlers worrying about what
                  tomorrow may hold, do you?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Don't get me wrong: God can speak through prophets, divination, and
                  books. (Just like He/She can use nature and those life lessons.) I've
                  found, especially as one that operates in prophetic gifting, that
                  revelations and information often confirms what I already know. And if a
                  revelation introduces completely new information, I set it on the shelf
                  until it makes sense to me and feels right. In New Testament terms, I let
                  "peace be my umpire". If I never use the information, no biggie. People
                  are fallible, maybe the information will be relevant to someone else, or
                  maybe it's for a future time for me to use and understand. And if God
                  really wants me to know something that I'm oblivious to, I'm sure He/She
                  has multiple sources to get my attention. I can always choose to "be still
                  and know that I am God" and tune into the "still small" voice for myself.
                  But govern my life in blind obeisance to external revelations, channeling,
                  psychic readings, and prophetic words? No way!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Think and hear for yourself, disentangle and detach from spiritual co-
                  dependency, and know that Kingdom of God is within you.
                  >
                  >
                  > © 2003 Janet Boyer
                • Elizabeth
                  Gabrielle Renard wrote: You wrote: So this means that those groups are automatically more spiritual (whatever this means ...) ?
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 4, 2004
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                    Gabrielle Renard <gabriellerenard@...> wrote:

                    You wrote: So this means that those groups are automatically more "spiritual" (whatever this means ...) ?

                    *** Well since you snipped part of what I actually wrote I'll share it again.   We do not collect money as does these other groups being spoken about.

                       We are not trying to start our own spiritual path!  We are sharing, investigating and researching various groups.  What we find gets posted.  It is up to those that read from these groups to make up their own minds.

                      As far as my negativity, or how I currently live my life;

                    It may appear negative to you, which might indicate you still have some personality or inner work for yourself to deal with?  I have no control over how you react to my postings, or what anyone else might post.  That is entirely up to you.  You don't know me personally, but those that do seem to think I am a loving, caring and rather nice person. ;-)   But I have learned, and know how to not be nice when the need arises! 

                    How I currently live my life is one day at a time, enjoying nature, family, and what ever else I feel is important to explore.  Do I currently feel I need someone else to tell me how to be spiritual, or save me from my karma?  Nope!  Been there, done that!  I am listening to my own higher self, walking my own path.   I would hope that others can learn how to do the same without relying on or becoming spiritually dependent on a group, or Master that can't give or take away spiritual advancement, enlightenment etc....   Although I do read books on various spiritual topics which I'm open to learn from and share.  But I do not feel the need to join a group or path to be enlightened!  My truth is not for sale, and I'm not buying anyone else's either.  (Master, Guru, or Learning Society...) 

                    ~Paradox~
                    You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment.
                    The you that you think of as you is not you.
                    The you that thinks of you as you is not you.
                    There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?

                    Who is not enlightened?
                    Who will become enlightened?
                    Who will be enlightened?

                    Enlightenment is your destiny---more certain than sunrise.
                    You cannot fail to achieve enlightenment.
                    Were you told otherwise?
                    Irresistible forces compel you.  The universe insists.
                    It is not within your power to fail.

                    There is no path to enlightenment:
                    It lies in all directions at all times.
                    On the journey to enlightenment, you create and
                    destroy your own path with every step.

                    No one can follow another's path.
                    No one can step off the path.
                    No one can lead another.
                    No one can turn back.
                    No one can stop.

                    Enlightenment is closer than your skin,
                    more immediate than your next breath,
                    and forever beyond your reach.

                    It need not be sought because it cannot be found.
                    It cannot be found because it cannot be lost.
                    It cannot be lost because it is
                    not other than that which seeks.

                    The paradox is that there is no paradox.
                    Is that not the damnedest thing?
                             ~Jed McKenna~

                       

                  • Gabrielle Renard
                    Elizabeth, first of all, thank you very much for your response. I appreciate it very much even if, of course, we mostly do not share the same points of view.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 4, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Elizabeth,
                       
                      first of all, thank you very much for your response. I appreciate it very much even if, of course, we mostly do not share the same points of view. More comments see below.

                      Elizabeth <whitefeatherliz@...> wrote:


                      Gabrielle Renard <gabriellerenard@...> wrote:

                      You wrote: So this means that those groups are automatically more "spiritual" (whatever this means ...) ?

                      *** Well since you snipped part of what I actually wrote I'll share it again.   We do not collect money as does these other groups being spoken about.

                         We are not trying to start our own spiritual path!  We are sharing, investigating and researching various groups.  What we find gets posted.  It is up to those that read from these groups to make up their own minds.

                      ******* Well, you know, that's good that you don't do that and you don't need to do that - but it does not mean automatically that you are "better" as other groups - you are no better, no worse, you are just different than others.

                      It may appear negative to you, which might indicate you still have some personality or inner work for yourself to deal with? 

                      ******* That's for sure, as we all have! :) Would be a real pity to be already perfect, life would be much less fun. ;)

                      I have no control over how you react to my postings, or what anyone else might post.  That is entirely up to you.

                      ******* I agree on that, and I take this responsibility and did not say otherwise. But what strikes me is while you attribute full responsibility to me for my reactions to your words, you throw full responsibility on Eckankar for what they did to you (and they have built up lots of "karma" for sure!) but don't see your own responsibility. You are responsible for your reactions and how far you let yourself be involved and hurt, and for what you have become after leaving. 

                      You don't know me personally, but those that do seem to think I am a loving, caring and rather nice person. ;-)   But I have learned, and know how to not be nice when the need arises! 

                      ****** This is right, I don't know you personally, and if the above does not apply to you, so please say so. It's a general observation I made while participating here. I never was nice when the need arose, even not while in Eckankar. I think that is something you can develop independently and that is always in you. But I agree that in Eckankar it was difficult to not feel guilty for being a "bad boy" or a "bad girl". It's good, too, to be "bad" when necessary - but it's not necessary to make a state of mind out of it!

                      How I currently live my life is one day at a time, enjoying nature, family, and what ever else I feel is important to explore.

                      ****** This is just great and how it should be!

                      Do I currently feel I need someone else to tell me how to be spiritual, or save me from my karma?  Nope!  Been there, done that!  I am listening to my own higher self, walking my own path. 

                      ****** I tell you what - that is exactly what I'm doing, too! So we are not so different after all. ;) 

                      I would hope that others can learn how to do the same without relying on or becoming spiritually dependent on a group, or Master that can't give or take away spiritual advancement, enlightenment etc.... 

                      *****Well Elizabeth, I think that this is none of our business. All we can do is take care of ourselves and let everybody else take care of themselves. This does not mean that we cannot discuss with them and point out certain things that are important to us. We can also tell them if we think that they are about to make a "wrong" decision and talk about our views. But there's no need to ramble on about cults all the time and seeing cults everywhere. There are other more important issues to deal with as somebody just recently said here.

                      Although I do read books on various spiritual topics which I'm open to learn from and share.  But I do not feel the need to join a group or path to be enlightened!  My truth is not for sale, and I'm not buying anyone else's either.  (Master, Guru, or Learning Society...) 

                      ***** This is all what you need to do, and that is perfect! You do not need to "enlighten" anybody else about how to walk their spiritual path, wherever this is, in Eckankar our out of it, alone or with a "learning society". I have no fear of contact to HCS because I know perfectly how to take care of myself, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to be able to do so.

                      Thanks again a lot for having taken your time to respond.

                      ~Paradox~
                      You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment.
                      The you that you think of as you is not you.
                      The you that thinks of you as you is not you.
                      There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?

                      Who is not enlightened?
                      Who will become enlightened?
                      Who will be enlightened?

                      Enlightenment is your destiny---more certain than sunrise.
                      You cannot fail to achieve enlightenment.
                      Were you told otherwise?
                      Irresistible forces compel you.  The universe insists.
                      It is not within your power to fail.

                      There is no path to enlightenment:
                      It lies in all directions at all times.
                      On the journey to enlightenment, you create and
                      destroy your own path with every step.

                      No one can follow another's path.
                      No one can step off the path.
                      No one can lead another.
                      No one can turn back.
                      No one can stop.

                      Enlightenment is closer than your skin,
                      more immediate than your next breath,
                      and forever beyond your reach.

                      It need not be sought because it cannot be found.
                      It cannot be found because it cannot be lost.
                      It cannot be lost because it is
                      not other than that which seeks.

                      The paradox is that there is no paradox.
                      Is that not the damnedest thing?
                               ~Jed McKenna~

                         



                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com

                    • brighttigress@yahoo.com
                      ... very much even if, of course, we mostly do not share the same points of view. More comments see below. ... spiritual (whatever this means ...) ? ...
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 5, 2004
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                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, Gabrielle Renard <gabriellerenard@y.
                        ..> wrote:
                        > Elizabeth,
                        >
                        > first of all, thank you very much for your response. I appreciate it
                        very much even if, of course, we mostly do not share the same points of
                        view. More comments see below.
                        >
                        > Elizabeth <whitefeatherliz@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Gabrielle Renard <gabriellerenard@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > You wrote: So this means that those groups are automatically more
                        "spiritual" (whatever this means ...) ?
                        >
                        > *** Well since you snipped part of what I actually wrote I'll share it
                        again. We do not collect money as does these other groups being spoken
                        about.
                        >
                        > We are not trying to start our own spiritual path! We are sharing,
                        investigating and researching various groups. What we find gets posted.
                        It is up to those that read from these groups to make up their own minds.
                        >

                        First of all, I'm so used to identifying who posts what by the number of
                        >s, the ***'s don't work as well since any other paragraphs *all* have
                        just one ">" and I don't know if they go with the ***'s or not. So if my
                        responses aren't exactly going along with the previous discussions and
                        there seems to be some confusion on my part, well...actually it's just
                        that I'm sort of thinking I'm responding to a particular comment and not
                        necessarily responding to it in the context of the whole previous
                        discussion.

                        But my thought here, lots of exies have shared interesting articles,
                        books, websites, etc., even stories about their looking into other
                        "paths". With this last one, some will get *very* enthusiastic about one
                        particular "path" or another, and think wow, they've found "it"!! This
                        often doesn't last, but some *will* join them and even stay in them for
                        the rest of their lives and be quite happy.

                        I'm thinking of a "Higher Con" comment I saw somewhere, about how their
                        discussions, etc., and mentions of other "teachings" are all used to sort
                        of "back up" the Higher Con "teachings", to fit everything into that
                        "Higher Con Box".

                        But my feeling, and I think other people's too, use any "shared" info in a
                        more "expansive" way, to just broaden our general knowledge and
                        experiences.

                        I hope I'm making some sense here!



                        > ******* Well, you know, that's good that you don't do that and you don't
                        need to do that - but it does not mean automatically that you are "better"
                        as other groups - you are no better, no worse, you are just different than
                        others.
                        >
                        > It may appear negative to you, which might indicate you still have some
                        personality or inner work for yourself to deal with?
                        >

                        You know, this 2nd comment struck a really *off* chord with me! To me, it
                        sounds sort of like the cult's saying we're not "spiritually ready" enough
                        to "get it" yet. And I'm pretty sure the 1st & 2nd paragraphs here go
                        together, but to me, they're sort of opposite. And the 2nd one is showing
                        a tad bit of that cult mindset. On the other hand, if I'd written it, I
                        probably wouldn't have noticed! <gg>


                        It's one of those "fine line" things, I think. In the cult, we'd been
                        indoctrinated with that "chosen people" stuff - and I think this whole
                        thing is most apparent in Fordji's book and the whole "Higher Con"
                        mindset.

                        It sort of reminds me of when I first went to a.r.e., and naturally even
                        before I saw it I'd absorbed the cult's "teachings" about those who leave,
                        so I naturally applied them to what I was seeing there - I thought those
                        former members were consumed by anger, misled by the Kal, and their
                        speaking against the cult was actually a "sign" that they *really* deeply
                        craved & missed that "connection" they'd rejected, like someone crawling
                        through the desert in search of water, they needed to stay "connected" and
                        were desperate to get any little bit of reflected "light" they could, even
                        though it was in a "negative" way - speaking out *against* the cult
                        actually showed they were still true believers!!

                        Well, it quickly became quite clear to me that the eckists were simply
                        totally *blind* to the very obvious facts, and everything the cult
                        "teaches" and culties "believe" about former members is bullshit!!

                        There's nothing "higher" or "lower" about all this, really. Just
                        different, as the first paragraph is pretty clear about.


                        > ******* That's for sure, as we all have! :) Would be a real pity to be
                        already perfect, life would be much less fun. ;)
                        >
                        > I have no control over how you react to my postings, or what anyone else
                        might post. That is entirely up to you.
                        >

                        Maybe it's just the wording here, that sounds a bit "ecky". Which is
                        understandable when you've been using eckspeak for so long it's a part of
                        you, even though the same words are expressing different thoughts and
                        feelings than they did when we were in the cult.

                        Reminds me of things I've seen posted on ecklists when they were "sharing"
                        their results in joining general "spiritual" internet chat groups and
                        slowly tossing out bait & looking for people who might be interested,
                        following the cult's "infiltrate" eckmissionary training. Eckists would
                        be *so* happy & excited when they hooked one & reeled 'em in!

                        You know, I'm thinking here that there's not really any way to explain the
                        sort of subtle differences at least in the way *I* think about the whole
                        thing, and feel about it.

                        Maybe it's sort of the general mindset of our society, that whole success-
                        oriented way of thinking, always looking for "results", etc. - one side
                        against the other, winning & losing, competition, etc.



                        > ******* I agree on that, and I take this responsibility and did not say
                        otherwise. But what strikes me is while you attribute full responsibility
                        to me for my reactions to your words, you throw full responsibility on
                        Eckankar for what they did to you (and they have built up lots of "karma"
                        for sure!) but don't see your own responsibility. You are responsible for
                        your reactions and how far you let yourself be involved and hurt, and for
                        what you have become after leaving.
                        >

                        I'm *really* confused on who's writing what - but this sounds to me like a
                        bit of an misunderstanding, and even worse, it's expressed with
                        ecklanguage.

                        I'd just like to say, what I'm thinking here is that it's like the way the
                        eckthugs scream & whine that it's our own fault we fell for a lying con
                        job - excuse me, but I daresay I'm not the only former member who's looked
                        at themselves and the reasons why we fell for the bullshit - but you can
                        sort of compare it to buying a used car. And that's why we have "Lemon
                        Laws" today.

                        Those who totally bought into that cultic mindset and keep it even after
                        they get out, well...they're just being manipulated. E-kult isn't the
                        *only* cult that uses this "advance damange control" tactic - Twitch
                        researched cults enough to recognize that some people *would* wake up, so
                        in order to deal with that he tried to brainwash people into thinking that
                        speaking out about the scam was "unspiritual" as well as risking an
                        eternity in astral hell. <gg>

                        Let's use the used car example again. I'm sure we're all aware that there
                        are some completely disreputable dealerships that specialize in taking
                        advantage of people - "word of mouth advertising" can work both for and
                        against, and don't we all share both good & bad consumer experiences with
                        our friends? So if you apply the cult's baloney to the "real world", no
                        one would *dare* talk about being ripped off!!


                        > You don't know me personally, but those that do seem to think I am a
                        loving, caring and rather nice person. ;-) But I have learned, and know
                        how to not be nice when the need arises!
                        >
                        > ****** This is right, I don't know you personally, and if the above does
                        not apply to you, so please say so. It's a general observation I made
                        while participating here. I never was nice when the need arose, even not
                        while in Eckankar. I think that is something you can develop independently
                        and that is always in you. But I agree that in Eckankar it was difficult
                        to not feel guilty for being a "bad boy" or a "bad girl". It's good, too,
                        to be "bad" when necessary - but it's not necessary to make a state of
                        mind out of it!
                        >
                        > How I currently live my life is one day at a time, enjoying nature,
                        family, and what ever else I feel is important to explore.
                        >
                        > ****** This is just great and how it should be!
                        >
                        > Do I currently feel I need someone else to tell me how to be spiritual,
                        or save me from my karma? Nope! Been there, done that! I am listening
                        to my own higher self, walking my own path.
                        >
                        > ****** I tell you what - that is exactly what I'm doing, too! So we are
                        not so different after all. ;)
                        >
                        > I would hope that others can learn how to do the same without relying on
                        or becoming spiritually dependent on a group, or Master that can't give or
                        take away spiritual advancement, enlightenment etc....
                        >
                        > *****Well Elizabeth, I think that this is none of our business. All we
                        can do is take care of ourselves and let everybody else take care of
                        themselves. This does not mean that we cannot discuss with them and point
                        out certain things that are important to us. We can also tell them if we
                        think that they are about to make a "wrong" decision and talk about our
                        views. But there's no need to ramble on about cults all the time and
                        seeing cults everywhere. There are other more important issues to deal
                        with as somebody just recently said here.
                        >

                        Excuse me, but it *is* about cults! That's what ET is all about!!

                        And it's not confined to just e-kult, but to the whole cult thing in
                        general and how it applies to ourselves & our lives, and it's not just
                        about ourselves, but it affects the whole world & everyone in it, and it's
                        not just about religious cults.

                        It's about freedom, and learning and growing, and not making the same
                        mistake more than once, in *any* area of our lives!




                        > Although I do read books on various spiritual topics which I'm open to
                        learn from and share. But I do not feel the need to join a group or path
                        to be enlightened! My truth is not for sale, and I'm not buying anyone
                        else's either. (Master, Guru, or Learning Society...)
                        >
                        > ***** This is all what you need to do, and that is perfect! You do not
                        need to "enlighten" anybody else about how to walk their spiritual path,
                        wherever this is, in Eckankar our out of it, alone or with a "learning
                        society". I have no fear of contact to HCS because I know perfectly how to
                        take care of myself, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to be able to do
                        so.
                        >

                        Okay, don't know who's writing what here - but IMO anyone is free to go
                        anywhere they like and express their opinions about whatever - and here,
                        what's appropriate is speaking out about the cultic aspects of HCS and
                        anything else.

                        Everyone's perfectly aware that lots of people are happy as pigs in mud
                        being eckists, "Great Work" co-workers with ALL THAT IS, or whatever.

                        E-kult bashes all other "lower" teachings, Higher Con adds e-kult to the
                        mix, both offer a "better & higher path" according to Themselves, but if
                        *anyone* is expecting (or hoping) that *any* former member is going to say
                        "Eureka! I've found it!!" - well, dream on!! Most of the time, that is.

                        I've found many former members will "dabble" in various things after
                        getting out, and at times "do* think they've "found IT" - but generally
                        they get out of that "seeking" mindset, and I think many are like me and
                        just enjoy bouncing around exploring freely - not even "seeking", just
                        "enjoying".

                        You know, this isn't the one I wanted to get back to & respond to, but I
                        ended up here anyway. Personally, this sort of feels like one of those
                        "hamster wheel" things.

                        Movin' on here...

                        Hugs,

                        Sharon



                        > Thanks again a lot for having taken your time to respond.
                        >
                        > ~Paradox~
                        > You will never achieve spiritual enlightenment.
                        > The you that you think of as you is not you.
                        > The you that thinks of you as you is not you.
                        > There is no you, so who wishes to become enlightened?
                        >
                        > Who is not enlightened?
                        > Who will become enlightened?
                        > Who will be enlightened?
                        >
                        > Enlightenment is your destiny---more certain than sunrise.
                        > You cannot fail to achieve enlightenment.
                        > Were you told otherwise?
                        > Irresistible forces compel you. The universe insists.
                        > It is not within your power to fail.
                        >
                        > There is no path to enlightenment:
                        > It lies in all directions at all times.
                        > On the journey to enlightenment, you create and
                        > destroy your own path with every step.
                        >
                        > No one can follow another's path.
                        > No one can step off the path.
                        > No one can lead another.
                        > No one can turn back.
                        > No one can stop.
                        >
                        > Enlightenment is closer than your skin,
                        > more immediate than your next breath,
                        > and forever beyond your reach.
                        >
                        > It need not be sought because it cannot be found.
                        > It cannot be found because it cannot be lost.
                        > It cannot be lost because it is
                        > not other than that which seeks.
                        >
                        > The paradox is that there is no paradox.
                        > Is that not the damnedest thing?
                        > ~Jed McKenna~
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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