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  • brighttigress@yahoo.com
    ... appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn t agree with some of you and your honesty is what compels me to share with you the following. That s
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 31, 2004
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      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...> wrote:
      > Hi Everyone;
      > I've been reading your messages for a few months now and have
      appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn't agree with some of
      you and your honesty is what compels me to share with you the following.

      That's okay, "we" often don't agree with "us" either. In fact, from
      minute to minute sometimes I don't even agree with *myself*! <gg>

      It's a lot different from the ecklists, where I spent a lot of time during
      my first year or so on the internet. I daresay if I'd had as much contact
      with "real" eckists during my first 10+ years in the cult, I'd have been
      "out" a lot sooner. But...at my first real-life eckbookstudy, I *very*
      quickly got that unspoken message about not asking questions when I asked
      "What happened to Darwin Gross?" And oh horrors, god forbid you should
      express an opinion or thought that dared to depart from the "official
      party line" on the eckists!


      > First I should mention I am a Canadian cattle and grain farmer,

      I sort of did a double-take when I saw your "KubotaPro" screen name! It's
      not the kind of thing one generally sees in "spirichul" circles. <gg>


      >and for the 5 years I've been in Echankar we have seen four years of
      drought, 2 years of the US border being closed to live Canadian cattle due
      to BSE and this year we did have a bumper crop but lost the crop due to
      frost.

      It could've been a lot worse, if Klemp had visited your area personally.

      I'm wondering what you thought about the "teachings" regarding
      eckanweathercontrol? Like...giving Klemp the credit for post-seminar
      wildfires in California, or the weather changes when the cult moved to MN?

      I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
      responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some kind of
      "karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many other
      people?

      In my own mind, I have a real problem imagining how a nice, sensible,
      down-to-earth farmer, who has to deal with very practical realities every
      day, got mixed up in a spacey new-age cult whose "master" doesn't have the
      sense *not* to clog up a hotel toilet with shredded paper!

      I'm just wondering - I just don't pay much attention to the news, don't
      know that much about farming & current issues - but you say *live* cattle
      aren't allowed in the US - what about just the meat? And I'm sort of
      wondering if Canada has much of a meat-processing industry - this might be
      a good solution! I'm wondering, too, if generally Canadian beef might be
      better quality than American beef, or do Canadians shoot up their cattle
      with hormones & antiobiotics, etc.?

      I'm probably wrong and "stereotyping" but in general, I think more of
      Canada than I do of America, and the same with Canadians, although perhaps
      everything is the same everywhere. I just think maybe perhaps America
      (and Americans) focuses more on immediate profit than quality and long-
      term effects, and maybe more people are sort of "burned out" or whatever,
      and don't take a lot of pride in the quality of whatever they do, like
      paying attention to sanitation regulations, etc. Oh, well...my mind
      wanders off frequently - and as my cult involvement shows, perhaps my
      idealism & fantasies of how things "should* be and my desire to believe in
      them overpowers my ability to see reality.


      > The first year in Eck I paid my membership fees, the second year I paid
      a donation but not the full membership amount, the third year I paid a
      little less, last year I couldn't afford to give them anything but they
      sent me my membership anyway.

      You know, since I've gotten out I've heard of so many people who have
      *never* paid the full membership amount, some for 20 years or so, it
      seems!

      I picked up *real* fast on how important it was to send money, so when I
      was short I'd simply let my membership lapse for a few months or so,
      although it caused me to feel a bit of fear and guilt, which I didn't even
      recognize at the time.

      My last year in the cult, I had to "beg for charity" - and when I posted
      about this as an eckist on a.r.e. to rebut "detractor" accusations that it
      was all about money, that was just fine. But when I left, it was thrown
      up in my face and used as "proof" that I was a worthless freeloader who'd
      never "gotten it".

      Oh - at one point I'd sent in my resignation, but re-joined a few days
      letter and sent them a check for $25 or so, which I really couldn't afford
      - and a HI had the *balls* and "unknowingness" to tell me privately that
      he was glad I'd seen the importance of sending money!!!! *Very*
      insulting, but just another one of many things that showed me the truth
      about the cult.

      I resigned *forever* not long after that.


      > This year I can't afford it either and told them so, I didn't go into
      detail because Harold is "all knowing" right?

      <giggle> Yeah, I used to believe that too!

      > Well they sent me back a letter telling me I should go on a "payment
      plan".

      I'm wondering if it was a personal or "form" letter. It would be
      interesting to see exactly what they said, if you'd like to scan or type
      it & post it here.

      I believe I noticed in recent years that they've changed the membership
      form, instead of just a brief mention asking people to write if they
      couldn't afford the membership fees, offering the "payment plan" when they
      first join up.

      > Well!! What a reality check!!!! I must admit it did make me thing
      about why I joined and I did come to the conclusion that it wasn't for
      Harold or this teachings or guidance, wasn't for the Sunday services or
      the Satsangs. What I enjoyed was getting off the farm on night a month
      and going for coffee after the Satsang!!!


      I know how you feel, though. Years ago I used to raise rabbits - show,
      meat, pet - and my annual "vacation" was county fair week, when I'd haul
      most of my rabbits there and they'd feed them & take care of them *plus*
      I'd win lots of ribbons and money, and get future customers!

      Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?

      I joined because I had "experiences" and had the misfortune to pick up a
      donated eckbook at the library. A lot of it seemed pretty far-fetched,
      but a lot of it seemed to make sense and "resonate" - at first I joined to
      check it out, silly me, I *did* believe the "secret discourses" would
      contain all the great hidden secrets of the universe. <gg> And all that
      other crap about how I'd always been an eckist but had made the mistake of
      leaving "the master" in past lives, and I certainly did *not* want to stay
      on that Wheel of 84, wandering around in lower-planes hell!

      I bit, and got firmly hooked without realizing what was happening - you
      are *damned* blessed to have woken up & gotten out after only four years!!

      > Petty expensive coffee eh!!!

      Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun - seriously, my
      daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at least you've
      got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting your local
      church or fire department!


      > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends retreat I
      explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership because I didn't
      have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance about what
      i should do blah, blah, blah!

      Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how you could
      scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was some kind
      of karmic test, perhaps?

      You know, I really wonder about the cult's money situation! Too bad they
      didn't make more use of Ford Johnson in the marketing & advertising
      department when they had him! And I still wonder if perhaps behind-the-
      scenes are backing him and the "Higher Con Society"? They'd be fools if
      they didn't - he's certainly putting a lot of effort into recruiting, etc.
      - good grief, just the internet advertising & expenses must be pretty
      high! Those "pay per click" ads of his show up in the most obscure
      places!


      > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra money I'm
      not sharing it with them!

      It's *so* nice to hear the voice of reason!!!!

      I hope things *do* turn around for you. Well, you're a farmer, and you
      are more familiar with cycles than everyone else.

      Of course, backyard gardening isn't farming but I used to practically
      *obsess* over the weather, didn't want to have to resort to using our
      polluted town water on my nice organic veggies. Sounds silly, I know -
      and of course my livelihood didn't depend on it. But eventually I
      realized worrying didn't help.

      It's upsetting, though, when I see beautiful cornfields drying up &
      desperately in need of rain, and the farmers struggling to save their
      crops. This year there was too much rain, and the tomatoes were *so*
      awful that the Amish farm where we've been buying them for years
      practically gave them away.

      Used to joke during a looong spell of very little snow, that it was all
      piling up somewhere and was going to hit all at once - then we got the
      Blizzard of '93, or thereabouts.


      > I don't want to dis them completely, I did lean a lot, mostly about my-
      self and that was good.

      It's good that you can feel that way!

      On the other hand, I'd done plenty of learning before the cult, and would
      have learned more and better without it. My local library was *very*
      understocked, and I made the mistake of doing as the cult told me to do -
      studying nothing but cultstuff the first two years. And after that, I
      just slapped the "ecklabel" on excellent spiritual wisdom from non-cult
      sources. I also gave up some areas of study that I really loved, and
      didn't even look deeply into some things that interested me, simply
      because the cult said they were "lower" and things I'd already been
      through in past lives.

      I waited & waited, worked at it, thought I had a great connection with the
      so-called "master", etc., even forgot about the very specific questions I
      started out with because the cult promised all my questions would be
      answered eventually. Kept telling myself that evidently I was getting
      more on the "inner" than I was "ready" enough to be allowed to be aware of
      <gg> especially when it came to the discourses. I'd noticed all along
      that lots of the discourse stuff was the same stuff from the books -
      towards the end, it got to where I barely skimmed them when they came in,
      although I made an effort at studying whatever ones we were doing at
      Satsang ...

      Oh! Which reminds me, because of kids & work & travel time for the first
      10 years or so I couldn't attend eckthings regularly, but the HI said that
      was okay, attend when I could, and she "waived" the rule about having to
      attend *all* of them, miss three and you're out. Towards the end I'd
      moved to a new area, and was *so* happy when an HI from my old area
      actually traveled to the new one for a Satsang for some new recruits! I'd
      started getting sick then, at the time didn't realize that the brand-new
      house, furnishings, carpeting, etc. where Satsang was held aggravated my
      symptoms, making it hard to get through them without coughing so hard I'd
      wet myself, which needless to say was quite embarrassing. I was also
      especially thankful for these Satsangs because my son was older & could
      attend too.

      Anyway, when a new series started my health had deteriorated to the point
      where I just couldn't make it, missed three, so the HI called and said I
      wasn't allowed to attend anymore! I was *shocked* and heartbroken - I was
      at a point in my life where I was able to commit myself more deeply to the
      "outer" cult, looking forward to doing intros & stuff, preparing myself
      for devoting myself totally to it & working hard for it in ways I hadn't
      been able to do before. I took Satsang very seriously, studying and doing
      the "homework assignments" and attending (with my son) "on the inner" when
      I couldn't get there "physically". None of this mattered. And by banning
      *me*, she was also banning my son - which I thought was *especially*
      horrible! But she said she'd learned that the cult had rules for a
      reason, and it was best to obey them.

      I wasn't as sharp as you, though. I figured there was some karmic reason,
      some spiritual lesson, and that I somehow *deserved* my health problems,
      and being banned from Satsang, which I *did* consider to be especially
      "holy and sacred" as the cult said it was.

      Can't help but contrast this with Catholicism - sure, maybe it's the
      biggest cult in the world & young boys need to be careful about bending
      over around priests, but you can bet that even when the Church is bankrupt
      there will still be good & committed priests, and you can go to Mass even
      if you don't contribute *anything* - and if you're sick, they bring the
      Eucharist to you.

      > And who says nothing good came out of this BSE experience!!!
      > Anyway, thank you all for being there and for letting me vent, I do
      appreciate it.

      Glad we could help! And I'd like to thank you for telling your story -
      I'm *genuinely* happy that you got out early!!! If any thoughts or
      issues come up that you'd like to talk about or anything, feel free to
      post again! You might also be interested in
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Execkankar - it's a smaller & more "private"
      group, and eckbashing isn't required. <gg>

      Gawd, I am *so* bad - I'm thinking about cows, remembering one time
      driving to work & passing a pen where there were a couple of sweet little
      calves frolicking in the sunshine while their mothers watched contentedly,
      and thinking how sweet and adorable they were, and then thinking of the
      yummy steak I'd be having for dinner that night. <gg>

      I am honored that ET has been visited by a member of that underappreciated
      and sadly becoming rare, very special "breed" - the farmer! Don't mean to
      sound corny or anything, but farmers deserve a more respect than they get
      - and better prices for what they produce, and more support to get you
      through the hard times! If we think we've got problems now with the oil-
      producing countries, just wait until farming is completely taken over by
      big corporate agri-business!!!

      Anyway...take care now, and I hope next year will bring appropriate
      sunshine & rain, and a nice long growing season!! Thanks again for
      posting!

      Hugs,

      Sharon

      PS - I just remembered, Klemp grew up on a farm! What the hECK happened
      to him???? I guess he just never really "got it".
    • samorez@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/31/2004 2:46:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn t agree with some of you and your
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 3, 2004
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        In a message dated 8/31/2004 2:46:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
        brighttigress@... writes:

        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...> wrote:
        > Hi Everyone;
        > I've been reading your messages for a few months now and have
        appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn't agree with some of
        you and your honesty is what compels me to share with you the following.

        That's okay, "we" often don't agree with "us" either. In fact, from
        minute to minute sometimes I don't even agree with *myself*! <gg>

        It's a lot different from the ecklists, where I spent a lot of time during
        my first year or so on the internet. I daresay if I'd had as much contact
        with "real" eckists during my first 10+ years in the cult, I'd have been
        "out" a lot sooner. But...at my first real-life eckbookstudy, I *very*
        quickly got that unspoken message about not asking questions when I asked
        "What happened to Darwin Gross?" And oh horrors, god forbid you should
        express an opinion or thought that dared to depart from the "official
        party line" on the eckists!


        > First I should mention I am a Canadian cattle and grain farmer,

        I sort of did a double-take when I saw your "KubotaPro" screen name! It's
        not the kind of thing one generally sees in "spirichul" circles. <gg>


        >and for the 5 years I've been in Echankar we have seen four years of
        drought, 2 years of the US border being closed to live Canadian cattle due
        to BSE and this year we did have a bumper crop but lost the crop due to
        frost.

        It could've been a lot worse, if Klemp had visited your area personally.

        I'm wondering what you thought about the "teachings" regarding
        eckanweathercontrol? Like...giving Klemp the credit for post-seminar
        wildfires in California, or the weather changes when the cult moved to MN?

        I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
        responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some kind of
        "karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many other
        people?

        In my own mind, I have a real problem imagining how a nice, sensible,
        down-to-earth farmer, who has to deal with very practical realities every
        day, got mixed up in a spacey new-age cult whose "master" doesn't have the
        sense *not* to clog up a hotel toilet with shredded paper!

        I'm just wondering - I just don't pay much attention to the news, don't
        know that much about farming & current issues - but you say *live* cattle
        aren't allowed in the US - what about just the meat? And I'm sort of
        wondering if Canada has much of a meat-processing industry - this might be
        a good solution! I'm wondering, too, if generally Canadian beef might be
        better quality than American beef, or do Canadians shoot up their cattle
        with hormones & antiobiotics, etc.?

        I'm probably wrong and "stereotyping" but in general, I think more of
        Canada than I do of America, and the same with Canadians, although perhaps
        everything is the same everywhere. I just think maybe perhaps America
        (and Americans) focuses more on immediate profit than quality and long-
        term effects, and maybe more people are sort of "burned out" or whatever,
        and don't take a lot of pride in the quality of whatever they do, like
        paying attention to sanitation regulations, etc. Oh, well...my mind
        wanders off frequently - and as my cult involvement shows, perhaps my
        idealism & fantasies of how things "should* be and my desire to believe in
        them overpowers my ability to see reality.


        > The first year in Eck I paid my membership fees, the second year I paid
        a donation but not the full membership amount, the third year I paid a
        little less, last year I couldn't afford to give them anything but they
        sent me my membership anyway.

        You know, since I've gotten out I've heard of so many people who have
        *never* paid the full membership amount, some for 20 years or so, it
        seems!

        I picked up *real* fast on how important it was to send money, so when I
        was short I'd simply let my membership lapse for a few months or so,
        although it caused me to feel a bit of fear and guilt, which I didn't even
        recognize at the time.

        My last year in the cult, I had to "beg for charity" - and when I posted
        about this as an eckist on a.r.e. to rebut "detractor" accusations that it
        was all about money, that was just fine. But when I left, it was thrown
        up in my face and used as "proof" that I was a worthless freeloader who'd
        never "gotten it".

        Oh - at one point I'd sent in my resignation, but re-joined a few days
        letter and sent them a check for $25 or so, which I really couldn't afford
        - and a HI had the *balls* and "unknowingness" to tell me privately that
        he was glad I'd seen the importance of sending money!!!! *Very*
        insulting, but just another one of many things that showed me the truth
        about the cult.

        I resigned *forever* not long after that.


        > This year I can't afford it either and told them so, I didn't go into
        detail because Harold is "all knowing" right?

        <giggle> Yeah, I used to believe that too!

        > Well they sent me back a letter telling me I should go on a "payment
        plan".

        I'm wondering if it was a personal or "form" letter. It would be
        interesting to see exactly what they said, if you'd like to scan or type
        it & post it here.

        I believe I noticed in recent years that they've changed the membership
        form, instead of just a brief mention asking people to write if they
        couldn't afford the membership fees, offering the "payment plan" when they
        first join up.

        > Well!! What a reality check!!!! I must admit it did make me thing
        about why I joined and I did come to the conclusion that it wasn't for
        Harold or this teachings or guidance, wasn't for the Sunday services or
        the Satsangs. What I enjoyed was getting off the farm on night a month
        and going for coffee after the Satsang!!!


        I know how you feel, though. Years ago I used to raise rabbits - show,
        meat, pet - and my annual "vacation" was county fair week, when I'd haul
        most of my rabbits there and they'd feed them & take care of them *plus*
        I'd win lots of ribbons and money, and get future customers!

        Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?

        I joined because I had "experiences" and had the misfortune to pick up a
        donated eckbook at the library. A lot of it seemed pretty far-fetched,
        but a lot of it seemed to make sense and "resonate" - at first I joined to
        check it out, silly me, I *did* believe the "secret discourses" would
        contain all the great hidden secrets of the universe. <gg> And all that
        other crap about how I'd always been an eckist but had made the mistake of
        leaving "the master" in past lives, and I certainly did *not* want to stay
        on that Wheel of 84, wandering around in lower-planes hell!

        I bit, and got firmly hooked without realizing what was happening - you
        are *damned* blessed to have woken up & gotten out after only four years!!

        > Petty expensive coffee eh!!!

        Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun - seriously, my
        daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at least you've
        got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting your local
        church or fire department!


        > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends retreat I
        explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership because I didn't
        have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance about what
        i should do blah, blah, blah!

        Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how you could
        scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was some kind
        of karmic test, perhaps?

        You know, I really wonder about the cult's money situation! Too bad they
        didn't make more use of Ford Johnson in the marketing & advertising
        department when they had him! And I still wonder if perhaps behind-the-
        scenes are backing him and the "Higher Con Society"? They'd be fools if
        they didn't - he's certainly putting a lot of effort into recruiting, etc.
        - good grief, just the internet advertising & expenses must be pretty
        high! Those "pay per click" ads of his show up in the most obscure
        places!


        > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra money I'm
        not sharing it with them!

        It's *so* nice to hear the voice of reason!!!!

        I hope things *do* turn around for you. Well, you're a farmer, and you
        are more familiar with cycles than everyone else.

        Of course, backyard gardening isn't farming but I used to practically
        *obsess* over the weather, didn't want to have to resort to using our
        polluted town water on my nice organic veggies. Sounds silly, I know -
        and of course my livelihood didn't depend on it. But eventually I
        realized worrying didn't help.

        It's upsetting, though, when I see beautiful cornfields drying up &
        desperately in need of rain, and the farmers struggling to save their
        crops. This year there was too much rain, and the tomatoes were *so*
        awful that the Amish farm where we've been buying them for years
        practically gave them away.

        Used to joke during a looong spell of very little snow, that it was all
        piling up somewhere and was going to hit all at once - then we got the
        Blizzard of '93, or thereabouts.


        > I don't want to dis them completely, I did lean a lot, mostly about my-
        self and that was good.

        It's good that you can feel that way!

        On the other hand, I'd done plenty of learning before the cult, and would
        have learned more and better without it. My local library was *very*
        understocked, and I made the mistake of doing as the cult told me to do -
        studying nothing but cultstuff the first two years. And after that, I
        just slapped the "ecklabel" on excellent spiritual wisdom from non-cult
        sources. I also gave up some areas of study that I really loved, and
        didn't even look deeply into some things that interested me, simply
        because the cult said they were "lower" and things I'd already been
        through in past lives.

        I waited & waited, worked at it, thought I had a great connection with the
        so-called "master", etc., even forgot about the very specific questions I
        started out with because the cult promised all my questions would be
        answered eventually. Kept telling myself that evidently I was getting
        more on the "inner" than I was "ready" enough to be allowed to be aware of
        <gg> especially when it came to the discourses. I'd noticed all along
        that lots of the discourse stuff was the same stuff from the books -
        towards the end, it got to where I barely skimmed them when they came in,
        although I made an effort at studying whatever ones we were doing at
        Satsang ...

        Oh! Which reminds me, because of kids & work & travel time for the first
        10 years or so I couldn't attend eckthings regularly, but the HI said that
        was okay, attend when I could, and she "waived" the rule about having to
        attend *all* of them, miss three and you're out. Towards the end I'd
        moved to a new area, and was *so* happy when an HI from my old area
        actually traveled to the new one for a Satsang for some new recruits! I'd
        started getting sick then, at the time didn't realize that the brand-new
        house, furnishings, carpeting, etc. where Satsang was held aggravated my
        symptoms, making it hard to get through them without coughing so hard I'd
        wet myself, which needless to say was quite embarrassing. I was also
        especially thankful for these Satsangs because my son was older & could
        attend too.

        Anyway, when a new series started my health had deteriorated to the point
        where I just couldn't make it, missed three, so the HI called and said I
        wasn't allowed to attend anymore! I was *shocked* and heartbroken - I was
        at a point in my life where I was able to commit myself more deeply to the
        "outer" cult, looking forward to doing intros & stuff, preparing myself
        for devoting myself totally to it & working hard for it in ways I hadn't
        been able to do before. I took Satsang very seriously, studying and doing
        the "homework assignments" and attending (with my son) "on the inner" when
        I couldn't get there "physically". None of this mattered. And by banning
        *me*, she was also banning my son - which I thought was *especially*
        horrible! But she said she'd learned that the cult had rules for a
        reason, and it was best to obey them.

        I wasn't as sharp as you, though. I figured there was some karmic reason,
        some spiritual lesson, and that I somehow *deserved* my health problems,
        and being banned from Satsang, which I *did* consider to be especially
        "holy and sacred" as the cult said it was.

        Can't help but contrast this with Catholicism - sure, maybe it's the
        biggest cult in the world & young boys need to be careful about bending
        over around priests, but you can bet that even when the Church is bankrupt
        there will still be good & committed priests, and you can go to Mass even
        if you don't contribute *anything* - and if you're sick, they bring the
        Eucharist to you.

        > And who says nothing good came out of this BSE experience!!!
        > Anyway, thank you all for being there and for letting me vent, I do
        appreciate it.

        Glad we could help! And I'd like to thank you for telling your story -
        I'm *genuinely* happy that you got out early!!! If any thoughts or
        issues come up that you'd like to talk about or anything, feel free to
        post again! You might also be interested in
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Execkankar - it's a smaller & more "private"
        group, and eckbashing isn't required. <gg>

        Gawd, I am *so* bad - I'm thinking about cows, remembering one time
        driving to work & passing a pen where there were a couple of sweet little
        calves frolicking in the sunshine while their mothers watched contentedly,
        and thinking how sweet and adorable they were, and then thinking of the
        yummy steak I'd be having for dinner that night. <gg>

        I am honored that ET has been visited by a member of that underappreciated
        and sadly becoming rare, very special "breed" - the farmer! Don't mean to
        sound corny or anything, but farmers deserve a more respect than they get
        - and better prices for what they produce, and more support to get you
        through the hard times! If we think we've got problems now with the oil-
        producing countries, just wait until farming is completely taken over by
        big corporate agri-business!!!

        Anyway...take care now, and I hope next year will bring appropriate
        sunshine & rain, and a nice long growing season!! Thanks again for
        posting!

        Hugs,

        Sharon

        PS - I just remembered, Klemp grew up on a farm! What the hECK happened
        to him???? I guess he just never really "got it".



        Great response Sharon. This deserves wider readership, if you know what I
        mean...

        Orez


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sári
        hey, i forgot to get that story, btw! why DID harold come to minnesota? does anyone have the story? ... From: samorez@aol.com [mailto:samorez@aol.com] Sent:
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 3, 2004
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          hey, i forgot to get that story, btw! why DID harold come to minnesota?
          does anyone have the story?

          -----Original Message-----
          From: samorez@... [mailto:samorez@...]
          Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:22 AM
          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Re: payment plan



          In a message dated 8/31/2004 2:46:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
          brighttigress@... writes:

          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...> wrote:
          > Hi Everyone;
          > I've been reading your messages for a few months now and have
          appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn't agree with some
          of
          you and your honesty is what compels me to share with you the
          following.

          That's okay, "we" often don't agree with "us" either. In fact, from
          minute to minute sometimes I don't even agree with *myself*! <gg>

          It's a lot different from the ecklists, where I spent a lot of time
          during
          my first year or so on the internet. I daresay if I'd had as much
          contact
          with "real" eckists during my first 10+ years in the cult, I'd have
          been
          "out" a lot sooner. But...at my first real-life eckbookstudy, I *very*

          quickly got that unspoken message about not asking questions when I
          asked
          "What happened to Darwin Gross?" And oh horrors, god forbid you should

          express an opinion or thought that dared to depart from the "official
          party line" on the eckists!


          > First I should mention I am a Canadian cattle and grain farmer,

          I sort of did a double-take when I saw your "KubotaPro" screen name!
          It's
          not the kind of thing one generally sees in "spirichul" circles. <gg>


          >and for the 5 years I've been in Echankar we have seen four years of
          drought, 2 years of the US border being closed to live Canadian cattle
          due
          to BSE and this year we did have a bumper crop but lost the crop due to

          frost.

          It could've been a lot worse, if Klemp had visited your area
          personally.

          I'm wondering what you thought about the "teachings" regarding
          eckanweathercontrol? Like...giving Klemp the credit for post-seminar
          wildfires in California, or the weather changes when the cult moved to
          MN?

          I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
          responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some kind of
          "karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many other
          people?

          In my own mind, I have a real problem imagining how a nice, sensible,
          down-to-earth farmer, who has to deal with very practical realities
          every
          day, got mixed up in a spacey new-age cult whose "master" doesn't have
          the
          sense *not* to clog up a hotel toilet with shredded paper!

          I'm just wondering - I just don't pay much attention to the news, don't

          know that much about farming & current issues - but you say *live*
          cattle
          aren't allowed in the US - what about just the meat? And I'm sort of
          wondering if Canada has much of a meat-processing industry - this might
          be
          a good solution! I'm wondering, too, if generally Canadian beef might
          be
          better quality than American beef, or do Canadians shoot up their
          cattle
          with hormones & antiobiotics, etc.?

          I'm probably wrong and "stereotyping" but in general, I think more of
          Canada than I do of America, and the same with Canadians, although
          perhaps
          everything is the same everywhere. I just think maybe perhaps America
          (and Americans) focuses more on immediate profit than quality and long-
          term effects, and maybe more people are sort of "burned out" or
          whatever,
          and don't take a lot of pride in the quality of whatever they do, like
          paying attention to sanitation regulations, etc. Oh, well...my mind
          wanders off frequently - and as my cult involvement shows, perhaps my
          idealism & fantasies of how things "should* be and my desire to believe
          in
          them overpowers my ability to see reality.


          > The first year in Eck I paid my membership fees, the second year I
          paid
          a donation but not the full membership amount, the third year I paid a
          little less, last year I couldn't afford to give them anything but they

          sent me my membership anyway.

          You know, since I've gotten out I've heard of so many people who have
          *never* paid the full membership amount, some for 20 years or so, it
          seems!

          I picked up *real* fast on how important it was to send money, so when
          I
          was short I'd simply let my membership lapse for a few months or so,
          although it caused me to feel a bit of fear and guilt, which I didn't
          even
          recognize at the time.

          My last year in the cult, I had to "beg for charity" - and when I
          posted
          about this as an eckist on a.r.e. to rebut "detractor" accusations that
          it
          was all about money, that was just fine. But when I left, it was
          thrown
          up in my face and used as "proof" that I was a worthless freeloader
          who'd
          never "gotten it".

          Oh - at one point I'd sent in my resignation, but re-joined a few days
          letter and sent them a check for $25 or so, which I really couldn't
          afford
          - and a HI had the *balls* and "unknowingness" to tell me privately that

          he was glad I'd seen the importance of sending money!!!! *Very*
          insulting, but just another one of many things that showed me the truth

          about the cult.

          I resigned *forever* not long after that.


          > This year I can't afford it either and told them so, I didn't go
          into
          detail because Harold is "all knowing" right?

          <giggle> Yeah, I used to believe that too!

          > Well they sent me back a letter telling me I should go on a "payment
          plan".

          I'm wondering if it was a personal or "form" letter. It would be
          interesting to see exactly what they said, if you'd like to scan or
          type
          it & post it here.

          I believe I noticed in recent years that they've changed the membership

          form, instead of just a brief mention asking people to write if they
          couldn't afford the membership fees, offering the "payment plan" when
          they
          first join up.

          > Well!! What a reality check!!!! I must admit it did make me thing
          about why I joined and I did come to the conclusion that it wasn't for
          Harold or this teachings or guidance, wasn't for the Sunday services or

          the Satsangs. What I enjoyed was getting off the farm on night a month

          and going for coffee after the Satsang!!!


          I know how you feel, though. Years ago I used to raise rabbits - show,

          meat, pet - and my annual "vacation" was county fair week, when I'd haul

          most of my rabbits there and they'd feed them & take care of them
          *plus*
          I'd win lots of ribbons and money, and get future customers!

          Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?

          I joined because I had "experiences" and had the misfortune to pick up
          a
          donated eckbook at the library. A lot of it seemed pretty far-fetched,

          but a lot of it seemed to make sense and "resonate" - at first I joined
          to
          check it out, silly me, I *did* believe the "secret discourses" would
          contain all the great hidden secrets of the universe. <gg> And all
          that
          other crap about how I'd always been an eckist but had made the mistake
          of
          leaving "the master" in past lives, and I certainly did *not* want to
          stay
          on that Wheel of 84, wandering around in lower-planes hell!

          I bit, and got firmly hooked without realizing what was happening - you

          are *damned* blessed to have woken up & gotten out after only four
          years!!

          > Petty expensive coffee eh!!!

          Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun - seriously,
          my
          daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at least
          you've
          got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting your
          local
          church or fire department!


          > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends retreat I
          explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership because I
          didn't
          have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance about
          what
          i should do blah, blah, blah!

          Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how you could

          scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was some
          kind
          of karmic test, perhaps?

          You know, I really wonder about the cult's money situation! Too bad
          they
          didn't make more use of Ford Johnson in the marketing & advertising
          department when they had him! And I still wonder if perhaps
          behind-the-
          scenes are backing him and the "Higher Con Society"? They'd be fools
          if
          they didn't - he's certainly putting a lot of effort into recruiting,
          etc.
          - good grief, just the internet advertising & expenses must be pretty
          high! Those "pay per click" ads of his show up in the most obscure
          places!


          > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra money
          I'm
          not sharing it with them!

          It's *so* nice to hear the voice of reason!!!!

          I hope things *do* turn around for you. Well, you're a farmer, and you

          are more familiar with cycles than everyone else.

          Of course, backyard gardening isn't farming but I used to practically
          *obsess* over the weather, didn't want to have to resort to using our
          polluted town water on my nice organic veggies. Sounds silly, I know -

          and of course my livelihood didn't depend on it. But eventually I
          realized worrying didn't help.

          It's upsetting, though, when I see beautiful cornfields drying up &
          desperately in need of rain, and the farmers struggling to save their
          crops. This year there was too much rain, and the tomatoes were *so*
          awful that the Amish farm where we've been buying them for years
          practically gave them away.

          Used to joke during a looong spell of very little snow, that it was all

          piling up somewhere and was going to hit all at once - then we got the
          Blizzard of '93, or thereabouts.


          > I don't want to dis them completely, I did lean a lot, mostly about
          my-
          self and that was good.

          It's good that you can feel that way!

          On the other hand, I'd done plenty of learning before the cult, and
          would
          have learned more and better without it. My local library was *very*
          understocked, and I made the mistake of doing as the cult told me to do
          -
          studying nothing but cultstuff the first two years. And after that, I
          just slapped the "ecklabel" on excellent spiritual wisdom from non-cult

          sources. I also gave up some areas of study that I really loved, and
          didn't even look deeply into some things that interested me, simply
          because the cult said they were "lower" and things I'd already been
          through in past lives.

          I waited & waited, worked at it, thought I had a great connection with
          the
          so-called "master", etc., even forgot about the very specific questions
          I
          started out with because the cult promised all my questions would be
          answered eventually. Kept telling myself that evidently I was getting
          more on the "inner" than I was "ready" enough to be allowed to be aware
          of
          <gg> especially when it came to the discourses. I'd noticed all along
          that lots of the discourse stuff was the same stuff from the books -
          towards the end, it got to where I barely skimmed them when they came
          in,
          although I made an effort at studying whatever ones we were doing at
          Satsang ...

          Oh! Which reminds me, because of kids & work & travel time for the
          first
          10 years or so I couldn't attend eckthings regularly, but the HI said
          that
          was okay, attend when I could, and she "waived" the rule about having
          to
          attend *all* of them, miss three and you're out. Towards the end I'd
          moved to a new area, and was *so* happy when an HI from my old area
          actually traveled to the new one for a Satsang for some new recruits!
          I'd
          started getting sick then, at the time didn't realize that the
          brand-new
          house, furnishings, carpeting, etc. where Satsang was held aggravated
          my
          symptoms, making it hard to get through them without coughing so hard
          I'd
          wet myself, which needless to say was quite embarrassing. I was also
          especially thankful for these Satsangs because my son was older & could

          attend too.

          Anyway, when a new series started my health had deteriorated to the
          point
          where I just couldn't make it, missed three, so the HI called and said
          I
          wasn't allowed to attend anymore! I was *shocked* and heartbroken - I
          was
          at a point in my life where I was able to commit myself more deeply to
          the
          "outer" cult, looking forward to doing intros & stuff, preparing myself

          for devoting myself totally to it & working hard for it in ways I
          hadn't
          been able to do before. I took Satsang very seriously, studying and
          doing
          the "homework assignments" and attending (with my son) "on the inner"
          when
          I couldn't get there "physically". None of this mattered. And by
          banning
          *me*, she was also banning my son - which I thought was *especially*
          horrible! But she said she'd learned that the cult had rules for a
          reason, and it was best to obey them.

          I wasn't as sharp as you, though. I figured there was some karmic
          reason,
          some spiritual lesson, and that I somehow *deserved* my health
          problems,
          and being banned from Satsang, which I *did* consider to be especially
          "holy and sacred" as the cult said it was.

          Can't help but contrast this with Catholicism - sure, maybe it's the
          biggest cult in the world & young boys need to be careful about bending

          over around priests, but you can bet that even when the Church is
          bankrupt
          there will still be good & committed priests, and you can go to Mass
          even
          if you don't contribute *anything* - and if you're sick, they bring the

          Eucharist to you.

          > And who says nothing good came out of this BSE experience!!!
          > Anyway, thank you all for being there and for letting me vent, I do
          appreciate it.

          Glad we could help! And I'd like to thank you for telling your story -

          I'm *genuinely* happy that you got out early!!! If any thoughts or
          issues come up that you'd like to talk about or anything, feel free to
          post again! You might also be interested in
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Execkankar - it's a smaller & more
          "private"
          group, and eckbashing isn't required. <gg>

          Gawd, I am *so* bad - I'm thinking about cows, remembering one time
          driving to work & passing a pen where there were a couple of sweet
          little
          calves frolicking in the sunshine while their mothers watched
          contentedly,
          and thinking how sweet and adorable they were, and then thinking of the

          yummy steak I'd be having for dinner that night. <gg>

          I am honored that ET has been visited by a member of that
          underappreciated
          and sadly becoming rare, very special "breed" - the farmer! Don't mean
          to
          sound corny or anything, but farmers deserve a more respect than they
          get
          - and better prices for what they produce, and more support to get you
          through the hard times! If we think we've got problems now with the
          oil-
          producing countries, just wait until farming is completely taken over
          by
          big corporate agri-business!!!

          Anyway...take care now, and I hope next year will bring appropriate
          sunshine & rain, and a nice long growing season!! Thanks again for
          posting!

          Hugs,

          Sharon

          PS - I just remembered, Klemp grew up on a farm! What the hECK
          happened
          to him???? I guess he just never really "got it".



          Great response Sharon. This deserves wider readership, if you know what
          I
          mean...

          Orez


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • heidi88_2000
          ... minnesota? ... ********* Here s the offical Harold eckplanation from the official Eckankar website. http://www.eckankar.org/Temple/TempleVision.html
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 3, 2004
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            > hey, i forgot to get that story, btw! why DID harold come to
            minnesota?
            > does anyone have the story?

            *********
            Here's the offical Harold eckplanation from the official Eckankar
            website.

            http://www.eckankar.org/Temple/TempleVision.html
          • Sári
            oh, okay. is there an unofficial version? ... From: heidi88_2000 [mailto:maxrules@cox.net] Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:26 PM To:
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 3, 2004
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              oh, okay. is there an "unofficial" version?

              -----Original Message-----
              From: heidi88_2000 [mailto:maxrules@...]
              Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:26 PM
              To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: payment plan


              > hey, i forgot to get that story, btw! why DID harold come to
              minnesota?
              > does anyone have the story?

              *********
              Here's the offical Harold eckplanation from the official Eckankar
              website.

              http://www.eckankar.org/Temple/TempleVision.html



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            • heidi88_2000
              ... Probably. I ve only ever heard the Harold vision version. I believe it was supposed to be in Sedona, AZ, but then there was that whole Darwin scandal.
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 3, 2004
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                > oh, okay. is there an "unofficial" version?

                Probably. I've only ever heard the Harold "vision" version. I
                believe it was supposed to be in Sedona, AZ, but then there was that
                whole Darwin scandal. There are others on the list how know more
                about all the legal stuff. Like I said, there's probably more to it
                than just the inspiring "vision" story.

                Linda B
              • Paul Olson
                When I first joined eckankar in 1970, there was a payment plan for yearly membership.....If I recall, the discourses back then cost $40 for Satsang one and $60
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 3, 2004
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                  When I first joined eckankar in 1970, there was a payment plan for yearly membership.....If I recall, the discourses back then cost $40 for Satsang one and $60 for personal discourses (precepts was the first one back then) You could take both of them together in the same year back then.....I think they accepted $5 a month or something......Of course, back then, $60 was a LOT of money for a minimum wage $1.65 / Hour gas station attendant such as I was.....

                  Sword

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: heidi88_2000
                  To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 6:25 PM
                  Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: payment plan


                  > hey, i forgot to get that story, btw! why DID harold come to
                  minnesota?
                  > does anyone have the story?

                  *********
                  Here's the offical Harold eckplanation from the official Eckankar
                  website.

                  http://www.eckankar.org/Temple/TempleVision.html


                  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                • brighttigress@yahoo.com
                  ... Just a quickie here, I m heading out fishing, we just got the computer online again....a repost from a.r.e...this particular post also shows how the cult s
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 5, 2004
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                    --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "heidi88_2000" <maxrules@c...>
                    wrote:
                    > > oh, okay. is there an "unofficial" version?
                    >
                    > Probably. I've only ever heard the Harold "vision" version. I
                    > believe it was supposed to be in Sedona, AZ, but then there was that
                    > whole Darwin scandal. There are others on the list how know more
                    > about all the legal stuff. Like I said, there's probably more to it
                    > than just the inspiring "vision" story.
                    >
                    > Linda B

                    Just a quickie here, I'm heading out fishing, we just got the computer
                    online again....a repost from a.r.e...this particular post also shows
                    how the cult's representatives operate in public.

                    ---------------

                    Subject: Re: New Plagiarisms Discovered
                    From: "Sharon2000" <brighttigress@...>
                    Date: 24 Oct 2001 11:59:00 GMT
                    Organization: Eckankar Sucks


                    catlist@... (Catalyst) wrote:
                    > > > DOUG RESPONDS:
                    > > > I have no idea where this business about me being "high-up" in
                    the
                    > > organization came from. I hold no position in the organizational
                    > > structure at all, that I know of.
                    > >
                    > > JOE WROTE:
                    > > Doug, when you told us of all the personal talks you've had with
                    > > Harold Klemp, your access to Eck archives, and your
                    acknowledgement
                    > > that you're a High Initiate in Eckankar (I suspect you're at least
                    a
                    > > 7th, probably an 8th initiate), I think it's fair to say you're a
                    High
                    > > Up in Eck org. Beside, who else was given the OK to write a book
                    of
                    > > apologetics for ECKANKAR?
                    > >
                    > > DOUG RESONDS.
                    > > I've never mentioned a thing about my initiations. In fact, it was
                    you
                    > > who said I was an HI, not I. You are lost in your own projections.
                    > >
                    > CATLIST CHIMES IN:
                    > Hi Doug. Its public knowledge you were a RESA for awhile. Unless
                    you
                    > have lost your "good standing" in ECKANKAR, wouldn't that make you
                    at
                    > least a Higher Initiate? By the way, I've heard you used to give
                    > fabulous Soul Travel workshops, where participants who usually were
                    > unsuccessfuly at it felt they were able to have some good success.
                    > Would you mind sometime sharing some tips here on this subject? I
                    > know, not everyone would be appreciative, but some of us would.


                    Hmmmmm...you know, I can see where Doug would make people think they
                    were
                    having "success" at "soul travel". From his lulling, soporific
                    writing
                    style, his slick smooth sales techniques & the way he distracts from
                    the
                    issues & stuff, well...yeah, I can see him basically hypnotizing a
                    room
                    full of eager cult members into getting "results".

                    Gee, maybe Doug *did* lose his high standing in the cult...maybe for
                    saying
                    publicly that what Harold told the membership in the 2nd initiates &
                    above
                    only book, "Be The Hu", about moving the temple site, was WRONG...that
                    Harold had told him personally that it was being moved for ecological
                    reasons, and the lack of adequate convention facilities.

                    So, Doug...do you think maybe Harold should do some re-editing in "Be
                    The
                    Hu"?

                    Do you think maybe the cult should stop publishing it...of course,
                    after
                    letting the word out that it was going to be pulled, so they could
                    sell all
                    the copies piled up in the storeroom. That's what was done all those
                    years
                    when I was a member. It made me wonder...if a particular book was so
                    great
                    & we were all being urged to buy it before it was no longer available,
                    why
                    were they taking them out of print?

                    For those who may not be familiar with this subject, here's a repost:

                    Harold's ecksplanation for moving the temple site from Arizona to
                    Minnesota:


                    "I'm moving it for several reasons. In the past there have been
                    a
                    number of psychic forces hovering around the site. We've also
                    had
                    to consider the political situation in South America which is
                    going
                    to push people north into overpopulated Mexico, then into the
                    southwestern United States." Klemp, "Be The Hu"


                    However, Doug Marman, cult clergyman and HI and personal buddy of
                    Harold's,
                    says that Harold told him personally that he was moving the temple
                    site
                    because of the delicate ecology and lack of convention facilities.
                    Others who were members back then have said that plans were drawn up &
                    they
                    were planning to build but Sedona wouldn't approve the building plans.
                    So...you just wonder!! Also, there's the little matter of the temple
                    site
                    land in Arizona, which had been given to the cult by a member. She'd
                    bequeathed more to the cult, but the family challenged the will after
                    her
                    death and won, so the cult didn't get as much as it was hoping for.

                    Oh...now, the huge majority of cult members only knew what Harold told
                    them
                    about this whole matter. "Be The Hu" is a book for 2nd initiates and
                    above ONLY, "compiled" from Klemp's talks to initiates at eckseminars.
                    Here's something interesting, considering Klemp's silly bullshit about
                    the
                    Latino invasion: An article in Newsweek on the growing Latino
                    population
                    cites census figures. The Latino population has doubled in the past
                    ten
                    years. California has negative latino growth. And guess what! The
                    state
                    with the biggest growth of Latinos is..... MINNESOTA!!!!
                    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

                    Hmmmmmm.....gee, aren't Latinos a part of the whole world that's in
                    its
                    second initiation? Are they moving to Minnesota because the weather
                    reminds them of home? Or...<ggg>....are they drawn to the bright
                    shining
                    light of the cult's "temple"?

                    Whassamatta, Klemp, isn't Latino money good enough?

                    <giggle>

                    Hugs,

                    Sharon

                    I think Doug is doing *exactly* what MN & Klemp are telling him what
                    to do,
                    but in case of possible "problems", basically using that cult-required
                    "disclaimer" that he's acting as an "independent" member. That's
                    bullshit.

                    I think his "book" was written to try to deal with the problem of cult
                    members who get on the internet, but it's also not being published &
                    publicized by the "official" cult rags, etc., because they'd rather
                    have as
                    few people as possible know that the issues Doug tries to "defuse"
                    even
                    exist.

                    --
                    http://www.geocities.com/eckcult
                    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/eck.txt
                    http://www.delphi.com/eckankartruth
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth
                    http://www.stormpages.com/truthbeknown66/
                  • Jennah Patterson
                    Mentioning Darwin is loads of fun. I was at a dream study thing with my Aunt & Uncle (who are still in ick today). Everyone was discussing their dreams
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 7, 2004
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                      Mentioning Darwin is loads of fun. I was at a dream study thing
                      with my Aunt & Uncle (who are still in ick today). Everyone was
                      discussing their dreams trying to relate them to something missing
                      in their life. Anyway, I asked if I could share a dream I had. I
                      mentioned being chased by bad entities and when I started chanting
                      Darwin Gross appeared and "saved" me. I asked why Darwin appeared
                      (and not Harold) since Darwin wasn't the Living Mahanta - I will
                      never forget the look on my Aunt's face. She said that this was an
                      intruder and to tell him to go away. Then she pulled me aside and
                      told me not to ever mentioned Darwin because they didn't recognize
                      him as the LM. She also said that she didn't want to have to
                      explain to everyone who Darwin was. I wonder if anyone was
                      listening and brought it up later.

                      Jenn


                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, brighttigress@y... wrote:
                      > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > > Hi Everyone;
                      > > I've been reading your messages for a few months now and have
                      > appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn't agree with
                      some of
                      > you and your honesty is what compels me to share with you the
                      following.
                      >
                      > That's okay, "we" often don't agree with "us" either. In fact,
                      from
                      > minute to minute sometimes I don't even agree with *myself*! <gg>
                      >
                      > It's a lot different from the ecklists, where I spent a lot of
                      time during
                      > my first year or so on the internet. I daresay if I'd had as much
                      contact
                      > with "real" eckists during my first 10+ years in the cult, I'd
                      have been
                      > "out" a lot sooner. But...at my first real-life eckbookstudy, I
                      *very*
                      > quickly got that unspoken message about not asking questions when
                      I asked
                      > "What happened to Darwin Gross?" And oh horrors, god forbid you
                      should
                      > express an opinion or thought that dared to depart from
                      the "official
                      > party line" on the eckists!
                      >
                      >
                      > > First I should mention I am a Canadian cattle and grain farmer,
                      >
                      > I sort of did a double-take when I saw your "KubotaPro" screen
                      name! It's
                      > not the kind of thing one generally sees in "spirichul" circles.
                      <gg>
                      >
                      >
                      > >and for the 5 years I've been in Echankar we have seen four years
                      of
                      > drought, 2 years of the US border being closed to live Canadian
                      cattle due
                      > to BSE and this year we did have a bumper crop but lost the crop
                      due to
                      > frost.
                      >
                      > It could've been a lot worse, if Klemp had visited your area
                      personally.
                      >
                      > I'm wondering what you thought about the "teachings" regarding
                      > eckanweathercontrol? Like...giving Klemp the credit for post-
                      seminar
                      > wildfires in California, or the weather changes when the cult
                      moved to MN?
                      >
                      > I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
                      > responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some kind
                      of
                      > "karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many
                      other
                      > people?
                      >
                      > In my own mind, I have a real problem imagining how a nice,
                      sensible,
                      > down-to-earth farmer, who has to deal with very practical
                      realities every
                      > day, got mixed up in a spacey new-age cult whose "master" doesn't
                      have the
                      > sense *not* to clog up a hotel toilet with shredded paper!
                      >
                      > I'm just wondering - I just don't pay much attention to the news,
                      don't
                      > know that much about farming & current issues - but you say *live*
                      cattle
                      > aren't allowed in the US - what about just the meat? And I'm sort
                      of
                      > wondering if Canada has much of a meat-processing industry - this
                      might be
                      > a good solution! I'm wondering, too, if generally Canadian beef
                      might be
                      > better quality than American beef, or do Canadians shoot up their
                      cattle
                      > with hormones & antiobiotics, etc.?
                      >
                      > I'm probably wrong and "stereotyping" but in general, I think more
                      of
                      > Canada than I do of America, and the same with Canadians, although
                      perhaps
                      > everything is the same everywhere. I just think maybe perhaps
                      America
                      > (and Americans) focuses more on immediate profit than quality and
                      long-
                      > term effects, and maybe more people are sort of "burned out" or
                      whatever,
                      > and don't take a lot of pride in the quality of whatever they do,
                      like
                      > paying attention to sanitation regulations, etc. Oh, well...my
                      mind
                      > wanders off frequently - and as my cult involvement shows, perhaps
                      my
                      > idealism & fantasies of how things "should* be and my desire to
                      believe in
                      > them overpowers my ability to see reality.
                      >
                      >
                      > > The first year in Eck I paid my membership fees, the second year
                      I paid
                      > a donation but not the full membership amount, the third year I
                      paid a
                      > little less, last year I couldn't afford to give them anything but
                      they
                      > sent me my membership anyway.
                      >
                      > You know, since I've gotten out I've heard of so many people who
                      have
                      > *never* paid the full membership amount, some for 20 years or so,
                      it
                      > seems!
                      >
                      > I picked up *real* fast on how important it was to send money, so
                      when I
                      > was short I'd simply let my membership lapse for a few months or
                      so,
                      > although it caused me to feel a bit of fear and guilt, which I
                      didn't even
                      > recognize at the time.
                      >
                      > My last year in the cult, I had to "beg for charity" - and when I
                      posted
                      > about this as an eckist on a.r.e. to rebut "detractor" accusations
                      that it
                      > was all about money, that was just fine. But when I left, it was
                      thrown
                      > up in my face and used as "proof" that I was a worthless
                      freeloader who'd
                      > never "gotten it".
                      >
                      > Oh - at one point I'd sent in my resignation, but re-joined a few
                      days
                      > letter and sent them a check for $25 or so, which I really
                      couldn't afford
                      > - and a HI had the *balls* and "unknowingness" to tell me
                      privately that
                      > he was glad I'd seen the importance of sending money!!!! *Very*
                      > insulting, but just another one of many things that showed me the
                      truth
                      > about the cult.
                      >
                      > I resigned *forever* not long after that.
                      >
                      >
                      > > This year I can't afford it either and told them so, I didn't
                      go into
                      > detail because Harold is "all knowing" right?
                      >
                      > <giggle> Yeah, I used to believe that too!
                      >
                      > > Well they sent me back a letter telling me I should go on
                      a "payment
                      > plan".
                      >
                      > I'm wondering if it was a personal or "form" letter. It would be
                      > interesting to see exactly what they said, if you'd like to scan
                      or type
                      > it & post it here.
                      >
                      > I believe I noticed in recent years that they've changed the
                      membership
                      > form, instead of just a brief mention asking people to write if
                      they
                      > couldn't afford the membership fees, offering the "payment plan"
                      when they
                      > first join up.
                      >
                      > > Well!! What a reality check!!!! I must admit it did make me
                      thing
                      > about why I joined and I did come to the conclusion that it wasn't
                      for
                      > Harold or this teachings or guidance, wasn't for the Sunday
                      services or
                      > the Satsangs. What I enjoyed was getting off the farm on night a
                      month
                      > and going for coffee after the Satsang!!!
                      >
                      >
                      > I know how you feel, though. Years ago I used to raise rabbits -
                      show,
                      > meat, pet - and my annual "vacation" was county fair week, when
                      I'd haul
                      > most of my rabbits there and they'd feed them & take care of them
                      *plus*
                      > I'd win lots of ribbons and money, and get future customers!
                      >
                      > Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?
                      >
                      > I joined because I had "experiences" and had the misfortune to
                      pick up a
                      > donated eckbook at the library. A lot of it seemed pretty far-
                      fetched,
                      > but a lot of it seemed to make sense and "resonate" - at first I
                      joined to
                      > check it out, silly me, I *did* believe the "secret discourses"
                      would
                      > contain all the great hidden secrets of the universe. <gg> And
                      all that
                      > other crap about how I'd always been an eckist but had made the
                      mistake of
                      > leaving "the master" in past lives, and I certainly did *not* want
                      to stay
                      > on that Wheel of 84, wandering around in lower-planes hell!
                      >
                      > I bit, and got firmly hooked without realizing what was happening -
                      you
                      > are *damned* blessed to have woken up & gotten out after only four
                      years!!
                      >
                      > > Petty expensive coffee eh!!!
                      >
                      > Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun -
                      seriously, my
                      > daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at
                      least you've
                      > got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting your
                      local
                      > church or fire department!
                      >
                      >
                      > > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends
                      retreat I
                      > explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership because
                      I didn't
                      > have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance
                      about what
                      > i should do blah, blah, blah!
                      >
                      > Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how you
                      could
                      > scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was
                      some kind
                      > of karmic test, perhaps?
                      >
                      > You know, I really wonder about the cult's money situation! Too
                      bad they
                      > didn't make more use of Ford Johnson in the marketing &
                      advertising
                      > department when they had him! And I still wonder if perhaps
                      behind-the-
                      > scenes are backing him and the "Higher Con Society"? They'd be
                      fools if
                      > they didn't - he's certainly putting a lot of effort into
                      recruiting, etc.
                      > - good grief, just the internet advertising & expenses must be
                      pretty
                      > high! Those "pay per click" ads of his show up in the most
                      obscure
                      > places!
                      >
                      >
                      > > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra
                      money I'm
                      > not sharing it with them!
                      >
                      > It's *so* nice to hear the voice of reason!!!!
                      >
                      > I hope things *do* turn around for you. Well, you're a farmer,
                      and you
                      > are more familiar with cycles than everyone else.
                      >
                      > Of course, backyard gardening isn't farming but I used to
                      practically
                      > *obsess* over the weather, didn't want to have to resort to using
                      our
                      > polluted town water on my nice organic veggies. Sounds silly, I
                      know -
                      > and of course my livelihood didn't depend on it. But eventually I
                      > realized worrying didn't help.
                      >
                      > It's upsetting, though, when I see beautiful cornfields drying up
                      &
                      > desperately in need of rain, and the farmers struggling to save
                      their
                      > crops. This year there was too much rain, and the tomatoes were
                      *so*
                      > awful that the Amish farm where we've been buying them for years
                      > practically gave them away.
                      >
                      > Used to joke during a looong spell of very little snow, that it
                      was all
                      > piling up somewhere and was going to hit all at once - then we got
                      the
                      > Blizzard of '93, or thereabouts.
                      >
                      >
                      > > I don't want to dis them completely, I did lean a lot, mostly
                      about my-
                      > self and that was good.
                      >
                      > It's good that you can feel that way!
                      >
                      > On the other hand, I'd done plenty of learning before the cult,
                      and would
                      > have learned more and better without it. My local library was
                      *very*
                      > understocked, and I made the mistake of doing as the cult told me
                      to do -
                      > studying nothing but cultstuff the first two years. And after
                      that, I
                      > just slapped the "ecklabel" on excellent spiritual wisdom from non-
                      cult
                      > sources. I also gave up some areas of study that I really loved,
                      and
                      > didn't even look deeply into some things that interested me,
                      simply
                      > because the cult said they were "lower" and things I'd already
                      been
                      > through in past lives.
                      >
                      > I waited & waited, worked at it, thought I had a great connection
                      with the
                      > so-called "master", etc., even forgot about the very specific
                      questions I
                      > started out with because the cult promised all my questions would
                      be
                      > answered eventually. Kept telling myself that evidently I was
                      getting
                      > more on the "inner" than I was "ready" enough to be allowed to be
                      aware of
                      > <gg> especially when it came to the discourses. I'd noticed all
                      along
                      > that lots of the discourse stuff was the same stuff from the
                      books -
                      > towards the end, it got to where I barely skimmed them when they
                      came in,
                      > although I made an effort at studying whatever ones we were doing
                      at
                      > Satsang ...
                      >
                      > Oh! Which reminds me, because of kids & work & travel time for
                      the first
                      > 10 years or so I couldn't attend eckthings regularly, but the HI
                      said that
                      > was okay, attend when I could, and she "waived" the rule about
                      having to
                      > attend *all* of them, miss three and you're out. Towards the end
                      I'd
                      > moved to a new area, and was *so* happy when an HI from my old
                      area
                      > actually traveled to the new one for a Satsang for some new
                      recruits! I'd
                      > started getting sick then, at the time didn't realize that the
                      brand-new
                      > house, furnishings, carpeting, etc. where Satsang was held
                      aggravated my
                      > symptoms, making it hard to get through them without coughing so
                      hard I'd
                      > wet myself, which needless to say was quite embarrassing. I was
                      also
                      > especially thankful for these Satsangs because my son was older &
                      could
                      > attend too.
                      >
                      > Anyway, when a new series started my health had deteriorated to
                      the point
                      > where I just couldn't make it, missed three, so the HI called and
                      said I
                      > wasn't allowed to attend anymore! I was *shocked* and
                      heartbroken - I was
                      > at a point in my life where I was able to commit myself more
                      deeply to the
                      > "outer" cult, looking forward to doing intros & stuff, preparing
                      myself
                      > for devoting myself totally to it & working hard for it in ways I
                      hadn't
                      > been able to do before. I took Satsang very seriously, studying
                      and doing
                      > the "homework assignments" and attending (with my son) "on the
                      inner" when
                      > I couldn't get there "physically". None of this mattered. And by
                      banning
                      > *me*, she was also banning my son - which I thought was
                      *especially*
                      > horrible! But she said she'd learned that the cult had rules for
                      a
                      > reason, and it was best to obey them.
                      >
                      > I wasn't as sharp as you, though. I figured there was some karmic
                      reason,
                      > some spiritual lesson, and that I somehow *deserved* my health
                      problems,
                      > and being banned from Satsang, which I *did* consider to be
                      especially
                      > "holy and sacred" as the cult said it was.
                      >
                      > Can't help but contrast this with Catholicism - sure, maybe it's
                      the
                      > biggest cult in the world & young boys need to be careful about
                      bending
                      > over around priests, but you can bet that even when the Church is
                      bankrupt
                      > there will still be good & committed priests, and you can go to
                      Mass even
                      > if you don't contribute *anything* - and if you're sick, they
                      bring the
                      > Eucharist to you.
                      >
                      > > And who says nothing good came out of this BSE experience!!!
                      > > Anyway, thank you all for being there and for letting me vent, I
                      do
                      > appreciate it.
                      >
                      > Glad we could help! And I'd like to thank you for telling your
                      story -
                      > I'm *genuinely* happy that you got out early!!! If any thoughts
                      or
                      > issues come up that you'd like to talk about or anything, feel
                      free to
                      > post again! You might also be interested in
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Execkankar - it's a smaller &
                      more "private"
                      > group, and eckbashing isn't required. <gg>
                      >
                      > Gawd, I am *so* bad - I'm thinking about cows, remembering one
                      time
                      > driving to work & passing a pen where there were a couple of sweet
                      little
                      > calves frolicking in the sunshine while their mothers watched
                      contentedly,
                      > and thinking how sweet and adorable they were, and then thinking
                      of the
                      > yummy steak I'd be having for dinner that night. <gg>
                      >
                      > I am honored that ET has been visited by a member of that
                      underappreciated
                      > and sadly becoming rare, very special "breed" - the farmer! Don't
                      mean to
                      > sound corny or anything, but farmers deserve a more respect than
                      they get
                      > - and better prices for what they produce, and more support to get
                      you
                      > through the hard times! If we think we've got problems now with
                      the oil-
                      > producing countries, just wait until farming is completely taken
                      over by
                      > big corporate agri-business!!!
                      >
                      > Anyway...take care now, and I hope next year will bring
                      appropriate
                      > sunshine & rain, and a nice long growing season!! Thanks again
                      for
                      > posting!
                      >
                      > Hugs,
                      >
                      > Sharon
                      >
                      > PS - I just remembered, Klemp grew up on a farm! What the hECK
                      happened
                      > to him???? I guess he just never really "got it".
                    • KubotaPro
                      Thank you, Sharon and everyone for your encouragement. I have decided to take the truly Canadian way and do nothing!! I will wait till they approach me and
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 8, 2004
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                        Thank you, Sharon and everyone for your encouragement. I have decided to take the truly
                        Canadian way and do nothing!! I will wait till they approach me and then deal with it when I have no choice. I have more pressing things to deal with and they are no longer a priority. Not that they ever were, I was not much into going places with them, or buying book, and stuff, my first priority was always this "plane", not some other realm!

                        As I write this it dawns on me that the most truly spiritual experience that I'd ever had was never connected to a church or "path" but sitting on the seat of an old John Deere
                        AR going up and down golden fields of wheat with eagles flying overhead. You want to see God, there "He" is in all his magnificent. Really what more can a person ask for.

                        Sharon, I will try to answer your farming questions at a later time, (right now I am running out of it, have to go work.) but then again this is not the forum for political discussions!!!
                        Thanks again,
                        Q

                        brighttigress@... wrote:
                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...> wrote:
                        > Hi Everyone;
                        > I've been reading your messages for a few months now and have
                        appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn't agree with some of
                        you and your honesty is what compels me to share with you the following.

                        That's okay, "we" often don't agree with "us" either. In fact, from
                        minute to minute sometimes I don't even agree with *myself*! <gg>

                        It's a lot different from the ecklists, where I spent a lot of time during
                        my first year or so on the internet. I daresay if I'd had as much contact
                        with "real" eckists during my first 10+ years in the cult, I'd have been
                        "out" a lot sooner. But...at my first real-life eckbookstudy, I *very*
                        quickly got that unspoken message about not asking questions when I asked
                        "What happened to Darwin Gross?" And oh horrors, god forbid you should
                        express an opinion or thought that dared to depart from the "official
                        party line" on the eckists!


                        > First I should mention I am a Canadian cattle and grain farmer,

                        I sort of did a double-take when I saw your "KubotaPro" screen name! It's
                        not the kind of thing one generally sees in "spirichul" circles. <gg>


                        >and for the 5 years I've been in Echankar we have seen four years of
                        drought, 2 years of the US border being closed to live Canadian cattle due
                        to BSE and this year we did have a bumper crop but lost the crop due to
                        frost.

                        It could've been a lot worse, if Klemp had visited your area personally.

                        I'm wondering what you thought about the "teachings" regarding
                        eckanweathercontrol? Like...giving Klemp the credit for post-seminar
                        wildfires in California, or the weather changes when the cult moved to MN?

                        I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
                        responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some kind of
                        "karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many other
                        people?

                        In my own mind, I have a real problem imagining how a nice, sensible,
                        down-to-earth farmer, who has to deal with very practical realities every
                        day, got mixed up in a spacey new-age cult whose "master" doesn't have the
                        sense *not* to clog up a hotel toilet with shredded paper!

                        I'm just wondering - I just don't pay much attention to the news, don't
                        know that much about farming & current issues - but you say *live* cattle
                        aren't allowed in the US - what about just the meat? And I'm sort of
                        wondering if Canada has much of a meat-processing industry - this might be
                        a good solution! I'm wondering, too, if generally Canadian beef might be
                        better quality than American beef, or do Canadians shoot up their cattle
                        with hormones & antiobiotics, etc.?

                        I'm probably wrong and "stereotyping" but in general, I think more of
                        Canada than I do of America, and the same with Canadians, although perhaps
                        everything is the same everywhere. I just think maybe perhaps America
                        (and Americans) focuses more on immediate profit than quality and long-
                        term effects, and maybe more people are sort of "burned out" or whatever,
                        and don't take a lot of pride in the quality of whatever they do, like
                        paying attention to sanitation regulations, etc. Oh, well...my mind
                        wanders off frequently - and as my cult involvement shows, perhaps my
                        idealism & fantasies of how things "should* be and my desire to believe in
                        them overpowers my ability to see reality.


                        > The first year in Eck I paid my membership fees, the second year I paid
                        a donation but not the full membership amount, the third year I paid a
                        little less, last year I couldn't afford to give them anything but they
                        sent me my membership anyway.

                        You know, since I've gotten out I've heard of so many people who have
                        *never* paid the full membership amount, some for 20 years or so, it
                        seems!

                        I picked up *real* fast on how important it was to send money, so when I
                        was short I'd simply let my membership lapse for a few months or so,
                        although it caused me to feel a bit of fear and guilt, which I didn't even
                        recognize at the time.

                        My last year in the cult, I had to "beg for charity" - and when I posted
                        about this as an eckist on a.r.e. to rebut "detractor" accusations that it
                        was all about money, that was just fine. But when I left, it was thrown
                        up in my face and used as "proof" that I was a worthless freeloader who'd
                        never "gotten it".

                        Oh - at one point I'd sent in my resignation, but re-joined a few days
                        letter and sent them a check for $25 or so, which I really couldn't afford
                        - and a HI had the *balls* and "unknowingness" to tell me privately that
                        he was glad I'd seen the importance of sending money!!!! *Very*
                        insulting, but just another one of many things that showed me the truth
                        about the cult.

                        I resigned *forever* not long after that.


                        > This year I can't afford it either and told them so, I didn't go into
                        detail because Harold is "all knowing" right?

                        <giggle> Yeah, I used to believe that too!

                        > Well they sent me back a letter telling me I should go on a "payment
                        plan".

                        I'm wondering if it was a personal or "form" letter. It would be
                        interesting to see exactly what they said, if you'd like to scan or type
                        it & post it here.

                        I believe I noticed in recent years that they've changed the membership
                        form, instead of just a brief mention asking people to write if they
                        couldn't afford the membership fees, offering the "payment plan" when they
                        first join up.

                        > Well!! What a reality check!!!! I must admit it did make me thing
                        about why I joined and I did come to the conclusion that it wasn't for
                        Harold or this teachings or guidance, wasn't for the Sunday services or
                        the Satsangs. What I enjoyed was getting off the farm on night a month
                        and going for coffee after the Satsang!!!


                        I know how you feel, though. Years ago I used to raise rabbits - show,
                        meat, pet - and my annual "vacation" was county fair week, when I'd haul
                        most of my rabbits there and they'd feed them & take care of them *plus*
                        I'd win lots of ribbons and money, and get future customers!

                        Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?

                        I joined because I had "experiences" and had the misfortune to pick up a
                        donated eckbook at the library. A lot of it seemed pretty far-fetched,
                        but a lot of it seemed to make sense and "resonate" - at first I joined to
                        check it out, silly me, I *did* believe the "secret discourses" would
                        contain all the great hidden secrets of the universe. <gg> And all that
                        other crap about how I'd always been an eckist but had made the mistake of
                        leaving "the master" in past lives, and I certainly did *not* want to stay
                        on that Wheel of 84, wandering around in lower-planes hell!

                        I bit, and got firmly hooked without realizing what was happening - you
                        are *damned* blessed to have woken up & gotten out after only four years!!

                        > Petty expensive coffee eh!!!

                        Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun - seriously, my
                        daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at least you've
                        got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting your local
                        church or fire department!


                        > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends retreat I
                        explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership because I didn't
                        have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance about what
                        i should do blah, blah, blah!

                        Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how you could
                        scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was some kind
                        of karmic test, perhaps?

                        You know, I really wonder about the cult's money situation! Too bad they
                        didn't make more use of Ford Johnson in the marketing & advertising
                        department when they had him! And I still wonder if perhaps behind-the-
                        scenes are backing him and the "Higher Con Society"? They'd be fools if
                        they didn't - he's certainly putting a lot of effort into recruiting, etc.
                        - good grief, just the internet advertising & expenses must be pretty
                        high! Those "pay per click" ads of his show up in the most obscure
                        places!


                        > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra money I'm
                        not sharing it with them!

                        It's *so* nice to hear the voice of reason!!!!

                        I hope things *do* turn around for you. Well, you're a farmer, and you
                        are more familiar with cycles than everyone else.

                        Of course, backyard gardening isn't farming but I used to practically
                        *obsess* over the weather, didn't want to have to resort to using our
                        polluted town water on my nice organic veggies. Sounds silly, I know -
                        and of course my livelihood didn't depend on it. But eventually I
                        realized worrying didn't help.

                        It's upsetting, though, when I see beautiful cornfields drying up &
                        desperately in need of rain, and the farmers struggling to save their
                        crops. This year there was too much rain, and the tomatoes were *so*
                        awful that the Amish farm where we've been buying them for years
                        practically gave them away.

                        Used to joke during a looong spell of very little snow, that it was all
                        piling up somewhere and was going to hit all at once - then we got the
                        Blizzard of '93, or thereabouts.


                        > I don't want to dis them completely, I did lean a lot, mostly about my-
                        self and that was good.

                        It's good that you can feel that way!

                        On the other hand, I'd done plenty of learning before the cult, and would
                        have learned more and better without it. My local library was *very*
                        understocked, and I made the mistake of doing as the cult told me to do -
                        studying nothing but cultstuff the first two years. And after that, I
                        just slapped the "ecklabel" on excellent spiritual wisdom from non-cult
                        sources. I also gave up some areas of study that I really loved, and
                        didn't even look deeply into some things that interested me, simply
                        because the cult said they were "lower" and things I'd already been
                        through in past lives.

                        I waited & waited, worked at it, thought I had a great connection with the
                        so-called "master", etc., even forgot about the very specific questions I
                        started out with because the cult promised all my questions would be
                        answered eventually. Kept telling myself that evidently I was getting
                        more on the "inner" than I was "ready" enough to be allowed to be aware of
                        <gg> especially when it came to the discourses. I'd noticed all along
                        that lots of the discourse stuff was the same stuff from the books -
                        towards the end, it got to where I barely skimmed them when they came in,
                        although I made an effort at studying whatever ones we were doing at
                        Satsang ...

                        Oh! Which reminds me, because of kids & work & travel time for the first
                        10 years or so I couldn't attend eckthings regularly, but the HI said that
                        was okay, attend when I could, and she "waived" the rule about having to
                        attend *all* of them, miss three and you're out. Towards the end I'd
                        moved to a new area, and was *so* happy when an HI from my old area
                        actually traveled to the new one for a Satsang for some new recruits! I'd
                        started getting sick then, at the time didn't realize that the brand-new
                        house, furnishings, carpeting, etc. where Satsang was held aggravated my
                        symptoms, making it hard to get through them without coughing so hard I'd
                        wet myself, which needless to say was quite embarrassing. I was also
                        especially thankful for these Satsangs because my son was older & could
                        attend too.

                        Anyway, when a new series started my health had deteriorated to the point
                        where I just couldn't make it, missed three, so the HI called and said I
                        wasn't allowed to attend anymore! I was *shocked* and heartbroken - I was
                        at a point in my life where I was able to commit myself more deeply to the
                        "outer" cult, looking forward to doing intros & stuff, preparing myself
                        for devoting myself totally to it & working hard for it in ways I hadn't
                        been able to do before. I took Satsang very seriously, studying and doing
                        the "homework assignments" and attending (with my son) "on the inner" when
                        I couldn't get there "physically". None of this mattered. And by banning
                        *me*, she was also banning my son - which I thought was *especially*
                        horrible! But she said she'd learned that the cult had rules for a
                        reason, and it was best to obey them.

                        I wasn't as sharp as you, though. I figured there was some karmic reason,
                        some spiritual lesson, and that I somehow *deserved* my health problems,
                        and being banned from Satsang, which I *did* consider to be especially
                        "holy and sacred" as the cult said it was.

                        Can't help but contrast this with Catholicism - sure, maybe it's the
                        biggest cult in the world & young boys need to be careful about bending
                        over around priests, but you can bet that even when the Church is bankrupt
                        there will still be good & committed priests, and you can go to Mass even
                        if you don't contribute *anything* - and if you're sick, they bring the
                        Eucharist to you.

                        > And who says nothing good came out of this BSE experience!!!
                        > Anyway, thank you all for being there and for letting me vent, I do
                        appreciate it.

                        Glad we could help! And I'd like to thank you for telling your story -
                        I'm *genuinely* happy that you got out early!!! If any thoughts or
                        issues come up that you'd like to talk about or anything, feel free to
                        post again! You might also be interested in
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Execkankar - it's a smaller & more "private"
                        group, and eckbashing isn't required. <gg>

                        Gawd, I am *so* bad - I'm thinking about cows, remembering one time
                        driving to work & passing a pen where there were a couple of sweet little
                        calves frolicking in the sunshine while their mothers watched contentedly,
                        and thinking how sweet and adorable they were, and then thinking of the
                        yummy steak I'd be having for dinner that night. <gg>

                        I am honored that ET has been visited by a member of that underappreciated
                        and sadly becoming rare, very special "breed" - the farmer! Don't mean to
                        sound corny or anything, but farmers deserve a more respect than they get
                        - and better prices for what they produce, and more support to get you
                        through the hard times! If we think we've got problems now with the oil-
                        producing countries, just wait until farming is completely taken over by
                        big corporate agri-business!!!

                        Anyway...take care now, and I hope next year will bring appropriate
                        sunshine & rain, and a nice long growing season!! Thanks again for
                        posting!

                        Hugs,

                        Sharon

                        PS - I just remembered, Klemp grew up on a farm! What the hECK happened
                        to him???? I guess he just never really "got it".





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                      • Sári
                        LOL! omg, that s funny. can i use your story (anonymously) in my article? (if you weren t here before, i ll be happy to reintroduce myself privately.) sari ...
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 9, 2004
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                        • 0 Attachment
                          LOL! omg, that's funny.

                          can i use your story (anonymously) in my article?

                          (if you weren't here before, i'll be happy to reintroduce myself
                          privately.)

                          sari


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Jennah Patterson [mailto:cocisha@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 10:13 PM
                          To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: payment plan


                          Mentioning Darwin is loads of fun. I was at a dream study thing
                          with my Aunt & Uncle (who are still in ick today). Everyone was
                          discussing their dreams trying to relate them to something missing
                          in their life. Anyway, I asked if I could share a dream I had. I
                          mentioned being chased by bad entities and when I started chanting
                          Darwin Gross appeared and "saved" me. I asked why Darwin appeared
                          (and not Harold) since Darwin wasn't the Living Mahanta - I will
                          never forget the look on my Aunt's face. She said that this was an
                          intruder and to tell him to go away. Then she pulled me aside and
                          told me not to ever mentioned Darwin because they didn't recognize
                          him as the LM. She also said that she didn't want to have to
                          explain to everyone who Darwin was. I wonder if anyone was
                          listening and brought it up later.

                          Jenn


                          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, brighttigress@y... wrote:
                          > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > > Hi Everyone;
                          > > I've been reading your messages for a few months now and have
                          > appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn't agree with
                          some of
                          > you and your honesty is what compels me to share with you the
                          following.
                          >
                          > That's okay, "we" often don't agree with "us" either. In fact,
                          from
                          > minute to minute sometimes I don't even agree with *myself*! <gg>
                          >
                          > It's a lot different from the ecklists, where I spent a lot of
                          time during
                          > my first year or so on the internet. I daresay if I'd had as much
                          contact
                          > with "real" eckists during my first 10+ years in the cult, I'd
                          have been
                          > "out" a lot sooner. But...at my first real-life eckbookstudy, I
                          *very*
                          > quickly got that unspoken message about not asking questions when
                          I asked
                          > "What happened to Darwin Gross?" And oh horrors, god forbid you
                          should
                          > express an opinion or thought that dared to depart from
                          the "official
                          > party line" on the eckists!
                          >
                          >
                          > > First I should mention I am a Canadian cattle and grain farmer,
                          >
                          > I sort of did a double-take when I saw your "KubotaPro" screen
                          name! It's
                          > not the kind of thing one generally sees in "spirichul" circles.
                          <gg>
                          >
                          >
                          > >and for the 5 years I've been in Echankar we have seen four years
                          of
                          > drought, 2 years of the US border being closed to live Canadian
                          cattle due
                          > to BSE and this year we did have a bumper crop but lost the crop
                          due to
                          > frost.
                          >
                          > It could've been a lot worse, if Klemp had visited your area
                          personally.
                          >
                          > I'm wondering what you thought about the "teachings" regarding
                          > eckanweathercontrol? Like...giving Klemp the credit for post-
                          seminar
                          > wildfires in California, or the weather changes when the cult
                          moved to MN?
                          >
                          > I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
                          > responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some kind
                          of
                          > "karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many
                          other
                          > people?
                          >
                          > In my own mind, I have a real problem imagining how a nice,
                          sensible,
                          > down-to-earth farmer, who has to deal with very practical
                          realities every
                          > day, got mixed up in a spacey new-age cult whose "master" doesn't
                          have the
                          > sense *not* to clog up a hotel toilet with shredded paper!
                          >
                          > I'm just wondering - I just don't pay much attention to the news,
                          don't
                          > know that much about farming & current issues - but you say *live*
                          cattle
                          > aren't allowed in the US - what about just the meat? And I'm sort
                          of
                          > wondering if Canada has much of a meat-processing industry - this
                          might be
                          > a good solution! I'm wondering, too, if generally Canadian beef
                          might be
                          > better quality than American beef, or do Canadians shoot up their
                          cattle
                          > with hormones & antiobiotics, etc.?
                          >
                          > I'm probably wrong and "stereotyping" but in general, I think more
                          of
                          > Canada than I do of America, and the same with Canadians, although
                          perhaps
                          > everything is the same everywhere. I just think maybe perhaps
                          America
                          > (and Americans) focuses more on immediate profit than quality and
                          long-
                          > term effects, and maybe more people are sort of "burned out" or
                          whatever,
                          > and don't take a lot of pride in the quality of whatever they do,
                          like
                          > paying attention to sanitation regulations, etc. Oh, well...my
                          mind
                          > wanders off frequently - and as my cult involvement shows, perhaps
                          my
                          > idealism & fantasies of how things "should* be and my desire to
                          believe in
                          > them overpowers my ability to see reality.
                          >
                          >
                          > > The first year in Eck I paid my membership fees, the second year
                          I paid
                          > a donation but not the full membership amount, the third year I
                          paid a
                          > little less, last year I couldn't afford to give them anything but
                          they
                          > sent me my membership anyway.
                          >
                          > You know, since I've gotten out I've heard of so many people who
                          have
                          > *never* paid the full membership amount, some for 20 years or so,
                          it
                          > seems!
                          >
                          > I picked up *real* fast on how important it was to send money, so
                          when I
                          > was short I'd simply let my membership lapse for a few months or
                          so,
                          > although it caused me to feel a bit of fear and guilt, which I
                          didn't even
                          > recognize at the time.
                          >
                          > My last year in the cult, I had to "beg for charity" - and when I
                          posted
                          > about this as an eckist on a.r.e. to rebut "detractor" accusations
                          that it
                          > was all about money, that was just fine. But when I left, it was
                          thrown
                          > up in my face and used as "proof" that I was a worthless
                          freeloader who'd
                          > never "gotten it".
                          >
                          > Oh - at one point I'd sent in my resignation, but re-joined a few
                          days
                          > letter and sent them a check for $25 or so, which I really
                          couldn't afford
                          > - and a HI had the *balls* and "unknowingness" to tell me
                          privately that
                          > he was glad I'd seen the importance of sending money!!!! *Very*
                          > insulting, but just another one of many things that showed me the
                          truth
                          > about the cult.
                          >
                          > I resigned *forever* not long after that.
                          >
                          >
                          > > This year I can't afford it either and told them so, I didn't
                          go into
                          > detail because Harold is "all knowing" right?
                          >
                          > <giggle> Yeah, I used to believe that too!
                          >
                          > > Well they sent me back a letter telling me I should go on
                          a "payment
                          > plan".
                          >
                          > I'm wondering if it was a personal or "form" letter. It would be
                          > interesting to see exactly what they said, if you'd like to scan
                          or type
                          > it & post it here.
                          >
                          > I believe I noticed in recent years that they've changed the
                          membership
                          > form, instead of just a brief mention asking people to write if
                          they
                          > couldn't afford the membership fees, offering the "payment plan"
                          when they
                          > first join up.
                          >
                          > > Well!! What a reality check!!!! I must admit it did make me
                          thing
                          > about why I joined and I did come to the conclusion that it wasn't
                          for
                          > Harold or this teachings or guidance, wasn't for the Sunday
                          services or
                          > the Satsangs. What I enjoyed was getting off the farm on night a
                          month
                          > and going for coffee after the Satsang!!!
                          >
                          >
                          > I know how you feel, though. Years ago I used to raise rabbits -
                          show,
                          > meat, pet - and my annual "vacation" was county fair week, when
                          I'd haul
                          > most of my rabbits there and they'd feed them & take care of them
                          *plus*
                          > I'd win lots of ribbons and money, and get future customers!
                          >
                          > Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?
                          >
                          > I joined because I had "experiences" and had the misfortune to
                          pick up a
                          > donated eckbook at the library. A lot of it seemed pretty far-
                          fetched,
                          > but a lot of it seemed to make sense and "resonate" - at first I
                          joined to
                          > check it out, silly me, I *did* believe the "secret discourses"
                          would
                          > contain all the great hidden secrets of the universe. <gg> And
                          all that
                          > other crap about how I'd always been an eckist but had made the
                          mistake of
                          > leaving "the master" in past lives, and I certainly did *not* want
                          to stay
                          > on that Wheel of 84, wandering around in lower-planes hell!
                          >
                          > I bit, and got firmly hooked without realizing what was happening -
                          you
                          > are *damned* blessed to have woken up & gotten out after only four
                          years!!
                          >
                          > > Petty expensive coffee eh!!!
                          >
                          > Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun -
                          seriously, my
                          > daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at
                          least you've
                          > got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting your
                          local
                          > church or fire department!
                          >
                          >
                          > > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends
                          retreat I
                          > explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership because
                          I didn't
                          > have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance
                          about what
                          > i should do blah, blah, blah!
                          >
                          > Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how you
                          could
                          > scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was
                          some kind
                          > of karmic test, perhaps?
                          >
                          > You know, I really wonder about the cult's money situation! Too
                          bad they
                          > didn't make more use of Ford Johnson in the marketing &
                          advertising
                          > department when they had him! And I still wonder if perhaps
                          behind-the-
                          > scenes are backing him and the "Higher Con Society"? They'd be
                          fools if
                          > they didn't - he's certainly putting a lot of effort into
                          recruiting, etc.
                          > - good grief, just the internet advertising & expenses must be
                          pretty
                          > high! Those "pay per click" ads of his show up in the most
                          obscure
                          > places!
                          >
                          >
                          > > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra
                          money I'm
                          > not sharing it with them!
                          >
                          > It's *so* nice to hear the voice of reason!!!!
                          >
                          > I hope things *do* turn around for you. Well, you're a farmer,
                          and you
                          > are more familiar with cycles than everyone else.
                          >
                          > Of course, backyard gardening isn't farming but I used to
                          practically
                          > *obsess* over the weather, didn't want to have to resort to using
                          our
                          > polluted town water on my nice organic veggies. Sounds silly, I
                          know -
                          > and of course my livelihood didn't depend on it. But eventually I
                          > realized worrying didn't help.
                          >
                          > It's upsetting, though, when I see beautiful cornfields drying up
                          &
                          > desperately in need of rain, and the farmers struggling to save
                          their
                          > crops. This year there was too much rain, and the tomatoes were
                          *so*
                          > awful that the Amish farm where we've been buying them for years
                          > practically gave them away.
                          >
                          > Used to joke during a looong spell of very little snow, that it
                          was all
                          > piling up somewhere and was going to hit all at once - then we got
                          the
                          > Blizzard of '93, or thereabouts.
                          >
                          >
                          > > I don't want to dis them completely, I did lean a lot, mostly
                          about my-
                          > self and that was good.
                          >
                          > It's good that you can feel that way!
                          >
                          > On the other hand, I'd done plenty of learning before the cult,
                          and would
                          > have learned more and better without it. My local library was
                          *very*
                          > understocked, and I made the mistake of doing as the cult told me
                          to do -
                          > studying nothing but cultstuff the first two years. And after
                          that, I
                          > just slapped the "ecklabel" on excellent spiritual wisdom from non-
                          cult
                          > sources. I also gave up some areas of study that I really loved,
                          and
                          > didn't even look deeply into some things that interested me,
                          simply
                          > because the cult said they were "lower" and things I'd already
                          been
                          > through in past lives.
                          >
                          > I waited & waited, worked at it, thought I had a great connection
                          with the
                          > so-called "master", etc., even forgot about the very specific
                          questions I
                          > started out with because the cult promised all my questions would
                          be
                          > answered eventually. Kept telling myself that evidently I was
                          getting
                          > more on the "inner" than I was "ready" enough to be allowed to be
                          aware of
                          > <gg> especially when it came to the discourses. I'd noticed all
                          along
                          > that lots of the discourse stuff was the same stuff from the
                          books -
                          > towards the end, it got to where I barely skimmed them when they
                          came in,
                          > although I made an effort at studying whatever ones we were doing
                          at
                          > Satsang ...
                          >
                          > Oh! Which reminds me, because of kids & work & travel time for
                          the first
                          > 10 years or so I couldn't attend eckthings regularly, but the HI
                          said that
                          > was okay, attend when I could, and she "waived" the rule about
                          having to
                          > attend *all* of them, miss three and you're out. Towards the end
                          I'd
                          > moved to a new area, and was *so* happy when an HI from my old
                          area
                          > actually traveled to the new one for a Satsang for some new
                          recruits! I'd
                          > started getting sick then, at the time didn't realize that the
                          brand-new
                          > house, furnishings, carpeting, etc. where Satsang was held
                          aggravated my
                          > symptoms, making it hard to get through them without coughing so
                          hard I'd
                          > wet myself, which needless to say was quite embarrassing. I was
                          also
                          > especially thankful for these Satsangs because my son was older &
                          could
                          > attend too.
                          >
                          > Anyway, when a new series started my health had deteriorated to
                          the point
                          > where I just couldn't make it, missed three, so the HI called and
                          said I
                          > wasn't allowed to attend anymore! I was *shocked* and
                          heartbroken - I was
                          > at a point in my life where I was able to commit myself more
                          deeply to the
                          > "outer" cult, looking forward to doing intros & stuff, preparing
                          myself
                          > for devoting myself totally to it & working hard for it in ways I
                          hadn't
                          > been able to do before. I took Satsang very seriously, studying
                          and doing
                          > the "homework assignments" and attending (with my son) "on the
                          inner" when
                          > I couldn't get there "physically". None of this mattered. And by
                          banning
                          > *me*, she was also banning my son - which I thought was
                          *especially*
                          > horrible! But she said she'd learned that the cult had rules for
                          a
                          > reason, and it was best to obey them.
                          >
                          > I wasn't as sharp as you, though. I figured there was some karmic
                          reason,
                          > some spiritual lesson, and that I somehow *deserved* my health
                          problems,
                          > and being banned from Satsang, which I *did* consider to be
                          especially
                          > "holy and sacred" as the cult said it was.
                          >
                          > Can't help but contrast this with Catholicism - sure, maybe it's
                          the
                          > biggest cult in the world & young boys need to be careful about
                          bending
                          > over around priests, but you can bet that even when the Church is
                          bankrupt
                          > there will still be good & committed priests, and you can go to
                          Mass even
                          > if you don't contribute *anything* - and if you're sick, they
                          bring the
                          > Eucharist to you.
                          >
                          > > And who says nothing good came out of this BSE experience!!!
                          > > Anyway, thank you all for being there and for letting me vent, I
                          do
                          > appreciate it.
                          >
                          > Glad we could help! And I'd like to thank you for telling your
                          story -
                          > I'm *genuinely* happy that you got out early!!! If any thoughts
                          or
                          > issues come up that you'd like to talk about or anything, feel
                          free to
                          > post again! You might also be interested in
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Execkankar - it's a smaller &
                          more "private"
                          > group, and eckbashing isn't required. <gg>
                          >
                          > Gawd, I am *so* bad - I'm thinking about cows, remembering one
                          time
                          > driving to work & passing a pen where there were a couple of sweet
                          little
                          > calves frolicking in the sunshine while their mothers watched
                          contentedly,
                          > and thinking how sweet and adorable they were, and then thinking
                          of the
                          > yummy steak I'd be having for dinner that night. <gg>
                          >
                          > I am honored that ET has been visited by a member of that
                          underappreciated
                          > and sadly becoming rare, very special "breed" - the farmer! Don't
                          mean to
                          > sound corny or anything, but farmers deserve a more respect than
                          they get
                          > - and better prices for what they produce, and more support to get
                          you
                          > through the hard times! If we think we've got problems now with
                          the oil-
                          > producing countries, just wait until farming is completely taken
                          over by
                          > big corporate agri-business!!!
                          >
                          > Anyway...take care now, and I hope next year will bring
                          appropriate
                          > sunshine & rain, and a nice long growing season!! Thanks again
                          for
                          > posting!
                          >
                          > Hugs,
                          >
                          > Sharon
                          >
                          > PS - I just remembered, Klemp grew up on a farm! What the hECK
                          happened
                          > to him???? I guess he just never really "got it".




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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • brighttigress@yahoo.com
                          ... wrote: ... experience that I d ever had was never connected to a church or path but sitting on the seat of an old John Deere ... overhead. You
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 10, 2004
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                            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...>
                            wrote:
                            <snip>
                            >
                            > As I write this it dawns on me that the most truly spiritual
                            experience that I'd ever had was never connected to a church
                            or "path" but sitting on the seat of an old John Deere
                            > AR going up and down golden fields of wheat with eagles flying
                            overhead. You want to see God, there "He" is in all his
                            magnificent. Really what more can a person ask for.
                            >

                            Yep, you've really summed it all up!!

                            This past week I've been sort of "stuck" on that bit of cult dogma
                            about earth being the ashcan of the universe, not our true homes,
                            etc. And other similar stuff, like we're spiritual beings in a
                            human body, etc.

                            I bought into that stuff for a long time too - and *very* glad to be
                            over it! My "true home" is wherever I happen to be, and I think our
                            human lives and the beautiful world we live in are loving gifts from
                            our Creator. And I *love* being just "me", not having to split
                            myself into physical, mental, astral, causal, spiritual, etc., -
                            what a nuisance!


                            > Sharon, I will try to answer your farming questions at a later
                            time, (right now I am running out of it, have to go work.) but then
                            again this is not the forum for political discussions!!!


                            Since it's *my* forum, political discussions & anything else I feel
                            like talking about are okay! Answer when & if you have time, or
                            don't if you don't. Eckstuff gets boring sometimes. <gg>

                            Hugs,

                            Sharon
                          • KubotaPro
                            brighttigress@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Sharon, I m going to try and answer some of your question about farming, I hope I don t insult any of your readers, if so, in
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 11, 2004
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                              brighttigress@... wrote:
                              Hi Sharon, I'm going to try and answer some of your question about farming, I hope I don't insult any of your readers, if so, in the true Canadian way, I appologize.


                              I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
                              responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some kind of
                              "karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many other
                              people?

                              Q<<I must admit i'm a firm beleiver in "what goes around, comes around", but is my "karma" responsible for global warming? NO, and no one could convince me of that one!!!

                              In my own mind, I have a real problem imagining how a nice, sensible,
                              down-to-earth farmer, who has to deal with very practical realities every
                              day, got mixed up in a spacey new-age cult whose "master" doesn't have the
                              sense *not* to clog up a hotel toilet with shredded paper!

                              Q<< But you see, I was not always a sensible down to earth farmer, I spent 15 years living in Toronto... that should explain everything!

                              I'm just wondering - I just don't pay much attention to the news, don't
                              know that much about farming & current issues - but you say *live* cattle
                              aren't allowed in the US - what about just the meat? And I'm sort of
                              wondering if Canada has much of a meat-processing industry - this might be
                              a good solution! I'm wondering, too, if generally Canadian beef might be
                              better quality than American beef, or do Canadians shoot up their cattle
                              with hormones & antiobiotics, etc.?

                              I'm probably wrong and "stereotyping" but in general, I think more of
                              Canada than I do of America, and the same with Canadians, although perhaps
                              everything is the same everywhere. I just think maybe perhaps America
                              (and Americans) focuses more on immediate profit than quality and long-
                              term effects, and maybe more people are sort of "burned out" or whatever,
                              and don't take a lot of pride in the quality of whatever they do, like
                              paying attention to sanitation regulations, etc. Oh, well...my mind
                              wanders off frequently - and as my cult involvement shows, perhaps my
                              idealism & fantasies of how things "should* be and my desire to believe in
                              them overpowers my ability to see reality.

                              Q<< Acording to some reachers BSE (mad cow)is caused by feeding animal products to animals. Before the mid 1980, if was costomary in both Canada & US to turn left over cattle parts into cattle feed. So for those farmers that did not grow their own feed and bought feed, they ended up feeding their cattle, animal by-products. Canada changed the law, stoping this practice in the late 1980. The US didn't change their laws until the late 1990. The life span of a cow is anywere from 12 to 20 years. The one case of BSE that was found in Canada, was brought in by a Montana farmer, that had moved north and brought his heard. He had brought a "downed" cow to an abatoire. A "downed" cow is a bovine that is very sick, one that should be shot and burried. Since then, "downer" are not allowed in the food chain (in Canada, I don't know about the US). The only way a person can get the humane version of mad cow, is by eating the brains and spinal cords of an infected cow. You mihgt think
                              that this would be next to imposible because you would never in a million years eat that part of a cow... ever eaten "gummy bears"? Anyway, within 30 minutes of the annoucement of the one and only case of BSE in Canada the US border was closed to live Canadian cattle, and the cattle business in Canada ended. The US government did eventually open the border to boneless cuts that came from cattle under 30 months, but the border still remains closed to live cattle, and will continue to stay close as long as Bush is president. Geo. W. is trying to teach us a lesson for not going to war in Iraq. So now the prediction is the border will remain close for another 5 years. Since our one case of BSE, the US has admitted to 6 case, our gorvernment has not baded US beef.

                              You asked if we had processing plants to process our own meat, well once apon a time we did. But during the rein of Priminister Trudeau, he decided that Canada did not need the Canadian farmer, and closed all the processing plants. Hence all our processing is done south of the border. The cattlemens association is trying to develop markets outside the US and making plans to build new processing plants, but we are being hammered by law suits and trade sactions by the US... Geo W's reach is long!!

                              Overall I think you have good farmers and bad farmers everywhere... What's that saying "It only takes 10% longer to do it right the first time!" And some people will just never get that.


                              >Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?

                              Q<< Young and Eglington in Toronto, then I picked up a book not realizing it was an Eck book. Forgot about it for many years, then moved west and came across it again, and it wasn't Menonite, so I thought "Why not."

                              I joined because I had "experiences" and had the misfortune to pick up a
                              donated eckbook at the library. A lot of it seemed pretty far-fetched,
                              but a lot of it seemed to make sense and "resonate" - at first I joined to
                              check it out, silly me, I *did* believe the "secret discourses" would
                              contain all the great hidden secrets of the universe. <gg> And all that
                              other crap about how I'd always been an eckist but had made the mistake of
                              leaving "the master" in past lives, and I certainly did *not* want to stay
                              on that Wheel of 84, wandering around in lower-planes hell!

                              I bit, and got firmly hooked without realizing what was happening - you
                              are *damned* blessed to have woken up & gotten out after only four years!!

                              > Petty expensive coffee eh!!!

                              Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun - seriously, my
                              daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at least you've
                              got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting your local
                              church or fire department!

                              Q<< I have the farm, a job and a business, I just need to redirect my energy.


                              > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends retreat I
                              explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership because I didn't
                              have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance about what
                              i should do blah, blah, blah!

                              Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how you could
                              scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was some kind
                              of karmic test, perhaps?

                              Q<< Actually no, he was very understanding, he suggested I should write a detailed leter. His wife on the other hand said that it wasn't that bad just $20. a month, everybody could come up with that.

                              You know, I really wonder about the cult's money situation! Too bad they
                              didn't make more use of Ford Johnson in the marketing & advertising
                              department when they had him! And I still wonder if perhaps behind-the-
                              scenes are backing him and the "Higher Con Society"? They'd be fools if
                              they didn't - he's certainly putting a lot of effort into recruiting, etc.
                              - good grief, just the internet advertising & expenses must be pretty
                              high! Those "pay per click" ads of his show up in the most obscure
                              places!


                              > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra money I'm
                              not sharing it with them!

                              It's *so* nice to hear the voice of reason!!!!

                              I hope things *do* turn around for you. Well, you're a farmer, and you
                              are more familiar with cycles than everyone else.

                              Of course, backyard gardening isn't farming but I used to practically
                              *obsess* over the weather, didn't want to have to resort to using our
                              polluted town water on my nice organic veggies. Sounds silly, I know -
                              and of course my livelihood didn't depend on it. But eventually I
                              realized worrying didn't help.

                              It's upsetting, though, when I see beautiful cornfields drying up &
                              desperately in need of rain, and the farmers struggling to save their
                              crops. This year there was too much rain, and the tomatoes were *so*
                              awful that the Amish farm where we've been buying them for years
                              practically gave them away.

                              Used to joke during a looong spell of very little snow, that it was all
                              piling up somewhere and was going to hit all at once - then we got the
                              Blizzard of '93, or thereabouts.


                              > I don't want to dis them completely, I did lean a lot, mostly about my-
                              self and that was good.

                              It's good that you can feel that way!

                              On the other hand, I'd done plenty of learning before the cult, and would
                              have learned more and better without it. My local library was *very*
                              understocked, and I made the mistake of doing as the cult told me to do -
                              studying nothing but cultstuff the first two years. And after that, I
                              just slapped the "ecklabel" on excellent spiritual wisdom from non-cult
                              sources. I also gave up some areas of study that I really loved, and
                              didn't even look deeply into some things that interested me, simply
                              because the cult said they were "lower" and things I'd already been
                              through in past lives.

                              I waited & waited, worked at it, thought I had a great connection with the
                              so-called "master", etc., even forgot about the very specific questions I
                              started out with because the cult promised all my questions would be
                              answered eventually. Kept telling myself that evidently I was getting
                              more on the "inner" than I was "ready" enough to be allowed to be aware of
                              <gg> especially when it came to the discourses. I'd noticed all along
                              that lots of the discourse stuff was the same stuff from the books -
                              towards the end, it got to where I barely skimmed them when they came in,
                              although I made an effort at studying whatever ones we were doing at
                              Satsang ...

                              Oh! Which reminds me, because of kids & work & travel time for the first
                              10 years or so I couldn't attend eckthings regularly, but the HI said that
                              was okay, attend when I could, and she "waived" the rule about having to
                              attend *all* of them, miss three and you're out. Towards the end I'd
                              moved to a new area, and was *so* happy when an HI from my old area
                              actually traveled to the new one for a Satsang for some new recruits! I'd
                              started getting sick then, at the time didn't realize that the brand-new
                              house, furnishings, carpeting, etc. where Satsang was held aggravated my
                              symptoms, making it hard to get through them without coughing so hard I'd
                              wet myself, which needless to say was quite embarrassing. I was also
                              especially thankful for these Satsangs because my son was older & could
                              attend too.

                              Anyway, when a new series started my health had deteriorated to the point
                              where I just couldn't make it, missed three, so the HI called and said I
                              wasn't allowed to attend anymore! I was *shocked* and heartbroken - I was
                              at a point in my life where I was able to commit myself more deeply to the
                              "outer" cult, looking forward to doing intros & stuff, preparing myself
                              for devoting myself totally to it & working hard for it in ways I hadn't
                              been able to do before. I took Satsang very seriously, studying and doing
                              the "homework assignments" and attending (with my son) "on the inner" when
                              I couldn't get there "physically". None of this mattered. And by banning
                              *me*, she was also banning my son - which I thought was *especially*
                              horrible! But she said she'd learned that the cult had rules for a
                              reason, and it was best to obey them.

                              I wasn't as sharp as you, though. I figured there was some karmic reason,
                              some spiritual lesson, and that I somehow *deserved* my health problems,
                              and being banned from Satsang, which I *did* consider to be especially
                              "holy and sacred" as the cult said it was.

                              Can't help but contrast this with Catholicism - sure, maybe it's the
                              biggest cult in the world & young boys need to be careful about bending
                              over around priests, but you can bet that even when the Church is bankrupt
                              there will still be good & committed priests, and you can go to Mass even
                              if you don't contribute *anything* - and if you're sick, they bring the
                              Eucharist to you.

                              > And who says nothing good came out of this BSE experience!!!
                              > Anyway, thank you all for being there and for letting me vent, I do
                              appreciate it.

                              Glad we could help! And I'd like to thank you for telling your story -
                              I'm *genuinely* happy that you got out early!!! If any thoughts or
                              issues come up that you'd like to talk about or anything, feel free to
                              post again! You might also be interested in
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Execkankar - it's a smaller & more "private"
                              group, and eckbashing isn't required. <gg>

                              Gawd, I am *so* bad - I'm thinking about cows, remembering one time
                              driving to work & passing a pen where there were a couple of sweet little
                              calves frolicking in the sunshine while their mothers watched contentedly,
                              and thinking how sweet and adorable they were, and then thinking of the
                              yummy steak I'd be having for dinner that night. <gg>

                              I am honored that ET has been visited by a member of that underappreciated
                              and sadly becoming rare, very special "breed" - the farmer! Don't mean to
                              sound corny or anything, but farmers deserve a more respect than they get
                              - and better prices for what they produce, and more support to get you
                              through the hard times! If we think we've got problems now with the oil-
                              producing countries, just wait until farming is completely taken over by
                              big corporate agri-business!!!

                              Anyway...take care now, and I hope next year will bring appropriate
                              sunshine & rain, and a nice long growing season!! Thanks again for
                              posting!

                              Hugs,

                              Sharon

                              PS - I just remembered, Klemp grew up on a farm! What the hECK happened
                              to him???? I guess he just never really "got it".

                              Q<< Thanks again.




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                            • brighttigress@yahoo.com
                              ... farming, I hope I don t insult any of your readers, if so, in the true Canadian way, I appologize. ... Thanks, and sorry for not responding sooner! No one
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 16, 2004
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                                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > brighttigress@y... wrote:
                                > Hi Sharon, I'm going to try and answer some of your question about
                                farming, I hope I don't insult any of your readers, if so, in the true
                                Canadian way, I appologize.
                                >

                                Thanks, and sorry for not responding sooner! No one should feel insulted
                                - wouldn't the world be a better place if somehow differences of opinion
                                could be taken not-personally? I mean, even at levels like Osama Bin
                                Laden and his crew - if they wouldn't take the presence of "infidels" so
                                personally the world would be a tad bit safer for *everyone*. Okay, maybe
                                that's over-simplification of a complex issue...but it's just a thought.
                                >
                                > >I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
                                > >responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some kind of
                                > >"karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many other
                                > >people?
                                >
                                > Q<<I must admit i'm a firm beleiver in "what goes around, comes around",
                                but is my "karma" responsible for global warming? NO, and no one could
                                convince me of that one!!!
                                >

                                I've been playing around in my head a lot lately, regarding karma - the
                                way the cult "teaches" it. And it just doesn't "work" for me. Sure, I
                                believe in "what goes around, comes around" in a lot of ways, but every
                                dog does *not* have his day or whatever. Just thought of Buddhism - the
                                "eight" somethings-or-other, and/or maybe "four" something? Specifically,
                                something about "right actions" - living our lives with integrity and
                                personal responsibility. Oh, that last is a cult buzz-phrase and I sort
                                of hate to use it, because "personal responsibility" is something people
                                generally have been learning as children since time began. Used to wonder
                                about that as a member, too - it seemed like Klemp and the "teachings"
                                harped on a lot of *very* elementary things, especially considering that
                                supposedly eckists had already "been there" ages ago before earning the
                                privilege of being accepted by the cult's so-called "master".

                                But when you think about it, the way the cult "teaches" it, everything in
                                our life is due to karma in some way, including business set-backs or
                                whatever. In your case, this can be interpreted that you needed some
                                financial hard times, and this was accomplished by bad weather & politics
                                - so should one then assume that evidently *all* farmers have a lot of bad
                                karma to work out?

                                >
                                > Q<< But you see, I was not always a sensible down to earth farmer, I
                                spent 15 years living in Toronto... that should explain everything!
                                >

                                Laughing here - is Toronto sort of the Canadian equivalent of California?

                                Sorry - I've got some good Californian friends and lived there as an
                                infant & toddler, but things & people *are* sort of different there!

                                Regional differences anywhere are fascinating - someone sent me a funny
                                list of things Southerners would never say, in fact, I think I'll post it
                                here next just for laughs! You know, this is another area where sometimes
                                people take it personally and take offense, so sometimes for example I'll
                                revise jokes into Polish versions, since I'm Polish and that way it'll be
                                poking fun at myself, instead of looking like I'm making fun of others.

                                Back to California, my daughter recently vacationed there and one
                                interesting thing was that Californian candy vending machines take credit
                                cards! We'd *never* heard of that! Just curious, I'd love to hear about
                                anywhere else that has them!

                                And on "big" karma, I always think of Klemp getting "credit" for post-
                                seminar wildfires in California - how many *innocent* people were harmed
                                by them? According to the "teachings", everyone gets what they deserve.
                                I just have a *really* hard time with that!


                                >
                                > Q<< Acording to some reachers BSE (mad cow)is caused by feeding animal
                                products to animals. Before the mid 1980, if was costomary in both Canada
                                & US to turn left over cattle parts into cattle feed. So for those
                                farmers that did not grow their own feed and bought feed, they ended up
                                feeding their cattle, animal by-products. Canada changed the law, stoping
                                this practice in the late 1980. The US didn't change their laws until the
                                late 1990. The life span of a cow is anywere from 12 to 20 years. The
                                one case of BSE that was found in Canada, was brought in by a Montana
                                farmer, that had moved north and brought his heard. He had brought a
                                "downed" cow to an abatoire. A "downed" cow is a bovine that is very
                                sick, one that should be shot and burried. Since then, "downer" are not
                                allowed in the food chain (in Canada, I don't know about the US). The
                                only way a person can get the humane version of mad cow, is by eating the
                                brains and spinal cords of an infected cow. You mihgt think
                                > that this would be next to imposible because you would never in a
                                million years eat that part of a cow... ever eaten "gummy bears"?

                                This is *fascinating*! You know, from what I've seen about BSE, I've
                                thought it should be fairly easy to avoid getting it.

                                Oh, coincidentally, over the weekend I was yakking with an HVAC repairman
                                friend who frequently works at a local abatoire amd can't eat pork anymore
                                because of it. One thing I'd never heard of was some kind of huge genital
                                tumor he says is on most of the pigs brought in. Years ago when I raised
                                rabbits I belonged to a small livestock co-op, and I sometimes got a bit
                                queasy because it was *so* obvious that some of the animals who would end
                                up neatly packaged at the meat counter were very sick.

                                I could never figure out, though, why some people would pass off their
                                sick animals at auction. Once I bought a little Netherland Dwarf doe for
                                breeding, and it turned out she had "snuffles" which sounds cute but it's
                                devastating. Had to spend almost *all* my time giving all my rabbits
                                penicillin shots 3x a day for a couple of weeks, but I beat it with no
                                losses!

                                Oh, my friend said there were two USDA inspectors on duty there at all
                                times. The abbatoir is a small family operation, and they're nice &
                                ethical people, but it's not always like that - I'm pretty sure I've seen
                                exposes, 60 Minutes type stuff, you can't always be sure - either business
                                owners or individual employees sometimes don't really care.

                                Reminds me of years ago, I worked at Pizza Hut - one of the cooks spit in
                                the local police chief's sandwich and laughed about it afterwards. Now, I
                                didn't like the guy either but I would *never* do something like that even
                                to my worst enemy! I reported her but she wasn't fired! The manager had
                                a *big* thing about employee theft, too - got sick of listening to his
                                paranoid harping on the subject, like the whole Pizza Hut empire would
                                crash because waitresses might go home with a couple of packets of Sweet N
                                Lo in their pocket, and he said if he allowed us to take the table scraps
                                home for our dogs pretty soon people would be deliberately making
                                "mistake" pizzas and taking them home for their families. Good grief!!
                                It's not surprising that after I left, I saw in the newspaper that he'd
                                been arrested for carrying *cases* of stuff home in the wee hours!

                                It's interesting that an American was the original "bad guy" in this
                                matter, and why the heck did the US take so much longer to change the law?
                                You know, it's things like this that have always made me *really* wonder
                                about my country, you know? And although I personally don't agree with a
                                lot of things about America, in fact I'm actually embarrassed at times,
                                good grief there's so much good about America, and I think America could
                                be a really truly shining example for the whole world but it often seems
                                like the almighty dollar & expediency rules and many people just don't
                                look at the big picture, or the future, you know?


                                > Anyway, within 30 minutes of the annoucement of the one and only case
                                of BSE in Canada the US border was closed to live Canadian cattle, and the
                                cattle business in Canada ended. The US government did eventually open
                                the border to boneless cuts that came from cattle under 30 months, but the
                                border still remains closed to live cattle, and will continue to stay
                                close as long as Bush is president.

                                I would think it would have been more appropriate for Canada to close its
                                borders to the US!

                                Well, I'll admit there's just a heck of a lot I don't know about a lot of
                                things. And I'm just now wondering how things turned out in England, I
                                remember when "Mad Cow Disease" first happened & all the hoopla - so sad &
                                devastating for British farmers, but I must admit I have no idea how
                                things progressed.


                                > Geo. W. is trying to teach us a lesson for not going to war in Iraq. So
                                now the prediction is the border will remain close for another 5 years.
                                Since our one case of BSE, the US has admitted to 6 case, our gorvernment
                                has not baded US beef.


                                How childish of Bush!! And good for Canada for not participating in the
                                Iraq war!!

                                Can't help it, but I daresay if the US has admitted to 6 cases, there are
                                probably many, many more.

                                Well...I know it's dangerous but I still like *very* rare beef.


                                > You asked if we had processing plants to process our own meat, well once
                                apon a time we did. But during the rein of Priminister Trudeau, he
                                decided that Canada did not need the Canadian farmer, and closed all the
                                processing plants. Hence all our processing is done south of the border.
                                The cattlemens association is trying to develop markets outside the US and
                                making plans to build new processing plants, but we are being hammered by
                                law suits and trade sactions by the US... Geo W's reach is long!!
                                >

                                Good grief!!!! What *was* Trudeau thinking? I'm thinking perhaps he was
                                influenced by trying to please America and America might use this as an
                                example of our government trying to provide more jobs for Americans,
                                although personally especially since Canada is our next-door neighbor I'd
                                think what's good for one country would be good for the other, you know?
                                And any American jobs gained by Canada's sending its meat processing here
                                is more than offset by the number of American jobs that American
                                businessmen have sent to other countries. Okay, maybe this does help
                                underdeveloped countries, but personally I have a *real* problem and can't
                                bring myself to buy a kitchen throw-rug that was made in India - I get
                                this mental picture of a little six-year-old Indian child chained to a
                                loom. I live in a resort area that never had a lot of industry, but when
                                I was a child quite a few women worked in the garment industry, mostly
                                ILGWU with good wages and benefits - that's all gone now. The factories
                                are closed now, and it's not as easy for women to find good pay & benefits
                                plus work hours that enabled them to be home when school let out. And
                                years ago, Sunday used to be "family day" but now people are either
                                working or shopping.

                                And I always think about all the acid rain we dump on beautiful Canada -
                                that's not right! Does Canada do anything about it, like fine or sanction
                                America or anything? And I'm wondering if Canada is suing the US for
                                anything?


                                > Overall I think you have good farmers and bad farmers everywhere...
                                What's that saying "It only takes 10% longer to do it right the first
                                time!" And some people will just never get that.
                                >

                                Yep, there's good & bad everywhere - but you know, I wonder about that
                                Montana farmer. Didn't he consider that his sick cow was a danger to
                                others - heck, it's not inconceivable that the infected meat might end up
                                on his own table, you know? But that shouldn't matter! It all boils down
                                to the Golden Rule.

                                >
                                > >Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?
                                >
                                > Q<< Young and Eglington in Toronto, then I picked up a book not
                                realizing it was an Eck book. Forgot about it for many years, then moved
                                west and came across it again, and it wasn't Menonite, so I thought "Why
                                not."
                                >

                                Betcha the Mennonites would never try to pass off infected *anything*,
                                even to "outsiders"!

                                It's a cute marketing trick, though - the cult "teaching" things like if
                                you picked up an eckbook years ago, that was a "sign" of some kind. And
                                things like this are the reason why the cult stopped handling book sales &
                                pushing to get them in bookstores, and telling eckists to buy them as
                                gifts for friends & family, etc. I wonder, why didn't they just pull out
                                the "big guns" like $cientology and use cult funds to buy them by the
                                hundreds to artificially inflate statistics & get Hubbard's crap on
                                bestseller lists?

                                > > Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun -
                                seriously, my
                                > >daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at least
                                you've got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting your
                                local church or fire department!
                                >

                                > Q<< I have the farm, a job and a business, I just need to redirect my
                                energy.


                                I was sort of joking about the bingo, but I understand how you enjoyed
                                "getting out" to Satsangs.

                                You know, I was mostly an "inner" eckist and I remember reading a lot in
                                the books about how *other* religions were mostly for people's "social"
                                needs but e-kult was *totally* different, of course. Found out especially
                                when I left, but the "social" aspects of cult membership really *are* a
                                major factor with many people! And the cult's "teachings" encourage this,
                                actually, when you really look at them. And actually, quite a few people
                                really take this to the limits and grow further & further away from their
                                non-eckist loved ones. It's really sad - I get a lot of email from these
                                "loved ones" who just don't know what to do, and are totally heartbroken.


                                > > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends retreat I
                                > explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership because I
                                didn't
                                > have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance about
                                what
                                > i should do blah, blah, blah!
                                >
                                > Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how you could
                                > scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was some kind
                                > of karmic test, perhaps?
                                >
                                > Q<< Actually no, he was very understanding, he suggested I should write
                                a detailed leter. His wife on the other hand said that it wasn't that bad
                                just $20. a month, everybody could come up with that.
                                >

                                Well, as you said, you didn't feel details were necessary because
                                supposedly the master knows everything! And this is a subject that's been
                                discussed at a.r.e., where the eckists claim that money's not an issue,
                                but some "detractors" have pointed out how the cult sort of puts people in
                                the uncomfortable position of begging.

                                Many years ago, I had a sort of similar experience which made me *really*
                                wonder. I hadn't received my monthly discourse so I called MN to get one
                                - well, the woman I spoke with gave me a *really* hard time, and just kept
                                repeating over & over again that it had been sent out. Well, I'm sure it
                                *was* but that doesn't mean I got it!! Good grief, I'm sure *everyone*
                                has at times gotten other people's mail - I certainly have! So, evidently
                                my discourse just landed in someone else's mailbox and they didn't return
                                it for proper delivery. I sort of worried, because of all the dire
                                threats about what happens to non-eckists who get their hands on the
                                secret members-only stuff, but I figured that maybe Spirit had used my
                                mis-delivered discourse for that "outer link" to the Org for someone who'd
                                been contacted on the "inner". <gg> I still can't believe how nasty the
                                woman was about this, I was *really* shocked! Not only was it very poor
                                business practice & "customer service", but it certainly wasn't the least
                                bit "spiritual"!!


                                > > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra money I'm
                                > not sharing it with them!
                                >

                                Seriously, I'd recommend the Self-Realization Fellowship "lessons" if
                                you're interested in "spiritual exercises" and techniques - although SRF
                                can be considered a cult, you can more or less ignore the little bit of
                                that kind of thing you find in their material. The lessons are very
                                inexpensive, barely covering the expense of production & mailing, and
                                they're "real meat" compared to e-kult's "marshmallow fluff"!!

                                Laughing here, I remember a few years ago checking out the books at
                                Llewellyn's website - there was one with a title something like "How to
                                Get Rid of Karma in Nine Days" or something! <ggg>

                                Well, thank you *so* much for the interesting information! And thanks for
                                another beautiful "soul travel" experience for my collection - I can close
                                my eyes and imagine myself sitting on an old John Deere, looking over
                                golden fields of grain, with eagles flying overhead! Earth truly *is* so
                                magnificent and beautiful - but you know, I think the cult sort of
                                actually messes up that immense awe & gratitude we feel about our Creator
                                when we contemplate on the scenery, wherever we are.

                                An old story along this line - back in the summer of '98 when I was at a.
                                r.e. & waking up, I was leaving my daughter's and as usual, totally
                                thrilled with the beautiful view! And oh wow, this day was *really*
                                awesome - there was a bald eagle soaring overhead! Well...I immediately
                                flipped into "eckmode" and tuned in for the lesson or whatever - "golden-
                                tongued wisdom" stuff - but all I could come up with was that seeing that
                                bald eagle must mean I was going to lose more hair!! And I sort of shook
                                myself, and thought "This is *such* bullshit!!"

                                Years before that, I'd been traveling roughly an hour to school every day,
                                passing lots & lots of cornfields. I'd just read a Klempstory about how
                                seeing a hawk "meant" something - well, naturally I focused on finding the
                                "message" - one day I counted 30-something hawks perched in the
                                occassional tree and thought "the master" was *really* trying to tell me
                                something important. Then my common sense kicked in - duh, cornfields are
                                good hunting grounds! I wondered - but stayed, putting this in that box
                                of "doubts" I kept hidden away with the lid tightly closed.

                                I was always quite happy with my "inner" even though it took me a long
                                time to *really* accept the obvious fact that e-kult was actually bringing
                                me down, and taking me further and further from that God who'd started out
                                being so close to my heart.

                                Well...thanks again for posting! Keep in touch, please - it's fun &
                                interesting to "meet" and chat with different people about different
                                things, although here at ET I've gotta always "pontificate" a bit because
                                after all, the main focus here is e-kult "awareness"!

                                Gotta run - looks like the sun is coming out! Lots of rain here in PA,
                                but at least we don't have hurricanes - and my thoughts are with anyone
                                who's in hurricane country right now.

                                Hugs,

                                Sharon
                              • Jennah Patterson
                                You can use my story Cosmo Kramer - j. peterman ... an ... with ... ... much ... when ... farmer, ... circles. ... years ... kind ... doesn t ... news,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 19, 2004
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                                  You can use my story Cosmo Kramer

                                  - j. peterman

                                  :-)



                                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Sári" <sarigordon@y...> wrote:
                                  > LOL! omg, that's funny.
                                  >
                                  > can i use your story (anonymously) in my article?
                                  >
                                  > (if you weren't here before, i'll be happy to reintroduce myself
                                  > privately.)
                                  >
                                  > sari
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Jennah Patterson [mailto:cocisha@y...]
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 10:13 PM
                                  > To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: payment plan
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Mentioning Darwin is loads of fun. I was at a dream study thing
                                  > with my Aunt & Uncle (who are still in ick today). Everyone was
                                  > discussing their dreams trying to relate them to something missing
                                  > in their life. Anyway, I asked if I could share a dream I had. I
                                  > mentioned being chased by bad entities and when I started chanting
                                  > Darwin Gross appeared and "saved" me. I asked why Darwin appeared
                                  > (and not Harold) since Darwin wasn't the Living Mahanta - I will
                                  > never forget the look on my Aunt's face. She said that this was
                                  an
                                  > intruder and to tell him to go away. Then she pulled me aside and
                                  > told me not to ever mentioned Darwin because they didn't recognize
                                  > him as the LM. She also said that she didn't want to have to
                                  > explain to everyone who Darwin was. I wonder if anyone was
                                  > listening and brought it up later.
                                  >
                                  > Jenn
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, brighttigress@y... wrote:
                                  > > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, KubotaPro <kubotapro@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > > Hi Everyone;
                                  > > > I've been reading your messages for a few months now and have
                                  > > appreciated everyones honesty even if at times I didn't agree
                                  with
                                  > some of
                                  > > you and your honesty is what compels me to share with you the
                                  > following.
                                  > >
                                  > > That's okay, "we" often don't agree with "us" either. In fact,
                                  > from
                                  > > minute to minute sometimes I don't even agree with *myself*!
                                  <gg>
                                  > >
                                  > > It's a lot different from the ecklists, where I spent a lot of
                                  > time during
                                  > > my first year or so on the internet. I daresay if I'd had as
                                  much
                                  > contact
                                  > > with "real" eckists during my first 10+ years in the cult, I'd
                                  > have been
                                  > > "out" a lot sooner. But...at my first real-life eckbookstudy, I
                                  > *very*
                                  > > quickly got that unspoken message about not asking questions
                                  when
                                  > I asked
                                  > > "What happened to Darwin Gross?" And oh horrors, god forbid you
                                  > should
                                  > > express an opinion or thought that dared to depart from
                                  > the "official
                                  > > party line" on the eckists!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > First I should mention I am a Canadian cattle and grain
                                  farmer,
                                  > >
                                  > > I sort of did a double-take when I saw your "KubotaPro" screen
                                  > name! It's
                                  > > not the kind of thing one generally sees in "spirichul"
                                  circles.
                                  > <gg>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >and for the 5 years I've been in Echankar we have seen four
                                  years
                                  > of
                                  > > drought, 2 years of the US border being closed to live Canadian
                                  > cattle due
                                  > > to BSE and this year we did have a bumper crop but lost the crop
                                  > due to
                                  > > frost.
                                  > >
                                  > > It could've been a lot worse, if Klemp had visited your area
                                  > personally.
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm wondering what you thought about the "teachings" regarding
                                  > > eckanweathercontrol? Like...giving Klemp the credit for post-
                                  > seminar
                                  > > wildfires in California, or the weather changes when the cult
                                  > moved to MN?
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm wondering, as an eckist did you feel any type of "personal"
                                  > > responsibility for these things? Like thinking you had some
                                  kind
                                  > of
                                  > > "karma" which needed to be worked out in ways that affected many
                                  > other
                                  > > people?
                                  > >
                                  > > In my own mind, I have a real problem imagining how a nice,
                                  > sensible,
                                  > > down-to-earth farmer, who has to deal with very practical
                                  > realities every
                                  > > day, got mixed up in a spacey new-age cult whose "master"
                                  doesn't
                                  > have the
                                  > > sense *not* to clog up a hotel toilet with shredded paper!
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm just wondering - I just don't pay much attention to the
                                  news,
                                  > don't
                                  > > know that much about farming & current issues - but you say
                                  *live*
                                  > cattle
                                  > > aren't allowed in the US - what about just the meat? And I'm
                                  sort
                                  > of
                                  > > wondering if Canada has much of a meat-processing industry -
                                  this
                                  > might be
                                  > > a good solution! I'm wondering, too, if generally Canadian beef
                                  > might be
                                  > > better quality than American beef, or do Canadians shoot up
                                  their
                                  > cattle
                                  > > with hormones & antiobiotics, etc.?
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm probably wrong and "stereotyping" but in general, I think
                                  more
                                  > of
                                  > > Canada than I do of America, and the same with Canadians,
                                  although
                                  > perhaps
                                  > > everything is the same everywhere. I just think maybe perhaps
                                  > America
                                  > > (and Americans) focuses more on immediate profit than quality
                                  and
                                  > long-
                                  > > term effects, and maybe more people are sort of "burned out" or
                                  > whatever,
                                  > > and don't take a lot of pride in the quality of whatever they
                                  do,
                                  > like
                                  > > paying attention to sanitation regulations, etc. Oh, well...my
                                  > mind
                                  > > wanders off frequently - and as my cult involvement shows,
                                  perhaps
                                  > my
                                  > > idealism & fantasies of how things "should* be and my desire to
                                  > believe in
                                  > > them overpowers my ability to see reality.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > The first year in Eck I paid my membership fees, the second
                                  year
                                  > I paid
                                  > > a donation but not the full membership amount, the third year I
                                  > paid a
                                  > > little less, last year I couldn't afford to give them anything
                                  but
                                  > they
                                  > > sent me my membership anyway.
                                  > >
                                  > > You know, since I've gotten out I've heard of so many people who
                                  > have
                                  > > *never* paid the full membership amount, some for 20 years or
                                  so,
                                  > it
                                  > > seems!
                                  > >
                                  > > I picked up *real* fast on how important it was to send money,
                                  so
                                  > when I
                                  > > was short I'd simply let my membership lapse for a few months or
                                  > so,
                                  > > although it caused me to feel a bit of fear and guilt, which I
                                  > didn't even
                                  > > recognize at the time.
                                  > >
                                  > > My last year in the cult, I had to "beg for charity" - and when
                                  I
                                  > posted
                                  > > about this as an eckist on a.r.e. to rebut "detractor"
                                  accusations
                                  > that it
                                  > > was all about money, that was just fine. But when I left, it
                                  was
                                  > thrown
                                  > > up in my face and used as "proof" that I was a worthless
                                  > freeloader who'd
                                  > > never "gotten it".
                                  > >
                                  > > Oh - at one point I'd sent in my resignation, but re-joined a
                                  few
                                  > days
                                  > > letter and sent them a check for $25 or so, which I really
                                  > couldn't afford
                                  > > - and a HI had the *balls* and "unknowingness" to tell me
                                  > privately that
                                  > > he was glad I'd seen the importance of sending money!!!!
                                  *Very*
                                  > > insulting, but just another one of many things that showed me
                                  the
                                  > truth
                                  > > about the cult.
                                  > >
                                  > > I resigned *forever* not long after that.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > This year I can't afford it either and told them so, I didn't
                                  > go into
                                  > > detail because Harold is "all knowing" right?
                                  > >
                                  > > <giggle> Yeah, I used to believe that too!
                                  > >
                                  > > > Well they sent me back a letter telling me I should go on
                                  > a "payment
                                  > > plan".
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm wondering if it was a personal or "form" letter. It would
                                  be
                                  > > interesting to see exactly what they said, if you'd like to scan
                                  > or type
                                  > > it & post it here.
                                  > >
                                  > > I believe I noticed in recent years that they've changed the
                                  > membership
                                  > > form, instead of just a brief mention asking people to write if
                                  > they
                                  > > couldn't afford the membership fees, offering the "payment plan"
                                  > when they
                                  > > first join up.
                                  > >
                                  > > > Well!! What a reality check!!!! I must admit it did make me
                                  > thing
                                  > > about why I joined and I did come to the conclusion that it
                                  wasn't
                                  > for
                                  > > Harold or this teachings or guidance, wasn't for the Sunday
                                  > services or
                                  > > the Satsangs. What I enjoyed was getting off the farm on night
                                  a
                                  > month
                                  > > and going for coffee after the Satsang!!!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I know how you feel, though. Years ago I used to raise rabbits -

                                  > show,
                                  > > meat, pet - and my annual "vacation" was county fair week, when
                                  > I'd haul
                                  > > most of my rabbits there and they'd feed them & take care of
                                  them
                                  > *plus*
                                  > > I'd win lots of ribbons and money, and get future customers!
                                  > >
                                  > > Just curious, where did you learn about the cult to begin with?
                                  > >
                                  > > I joined because I had "experiences" and had the misfortune to
                                  > pick up a
                                  > > donated eckbook at the library. A lot of it seemed pretty far-
                                  > fetched,
                                  > > but a lot of it seemed to make sense and "resonate" - at first I
                                  > joined to
                                  > > check it out, silly me, I *did* believe the "secret discourses"
                                  > would
                                  > > contain all the great hidden secrets of the universe. <gg> And
                                  > all that
                                  > > other crap about how I'd always been an eckist but had made the
                                  > mistake of
                                  > > leaving "the master" in past lives, and I certainly did *not*
                                  want
                                  > to stay
                                  > > on that Wheel of 84, wandering around in lower-planes hell!
                                  > >
                                  > > I bit, and got firmly hooked without realizing what was
                                  happening -
                                  > you
                                  > > are *damned* blessed to have woken up & gotten out after only
                                  four
                                  > years!!
                                  > >
                                  > > > Petty expensive coffee eh!!!
                                  > >
                                  > > Do they have bingo near where you live? That might be fun -
                                  > seriously, my
                                  > > daughter-in-law and I have been thinking about going - and at
                                  > least you've
                                  > > got a chance of winning something, and you're also supporting
                                  your
                                  > local
                                  > > church or fire department!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > When the HI called to see if I was going on this weekends
                                  > retreat I
                                  > > explained to him that "they" wouldn't renew my membership
                                  because
                                  > I didn't
                                  > > have any money to give them. He went into this song and dance
                                  > about what
                                  > > i should do blah, blah, blah!
                                  > >
                                  > > Just curious - were all his suggestions along the line of how
                                  you
                                  > could
                                  > > scrape up the money to pay, or any nonsense about how this was
                                  > some kind
                                  > > of karmic test, perhaps?
                                  > >
                                  > > You know, I really wonder about the cult's money situation! Too
                                  > bad they
                                  > > didn't make more use of Ford Johnson in the marketing &
                                  > advertising
                                  > > department when they had him! And I still wonder if perhaps
                                  > behind-the-
                                  > > scenes are backing him and the "Higher Con Society"? They'd be
                                  > fools if
                                  > > they didn't - he's certainly putting a lot of effort into
                                  > recruiting, etc.
                                  > > - good grief, just the internet advertising & expenses must be
                                  > pretty
                                  > > high! Those "pay per click" ads of his show up in the most
                                  > obscure
                                  > > places!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > Needless to say if things do turn around and i do have extra
                                  > money I'm
                                  > > not sharing it with them!
                                  > >
                                  > > It's *so* nice to hear the voice of reason!!!!
                                  > >
                                  > > I hope things *do* turn around for you. Well, you're a farmer,
                                  > and you
                                  > > are more familiar with cycles than everyone else.
                                  > >
                                  > > Of course, backyard gardening isn't farming but I used to
                                  > practically
                                  > > *obsess* over the weather, didn't want to have to resort to
                                  using
                                  > our
                                  > > polluted town water on my nice organic veggies. Sounds silly, I
                                  > know -
                                  > > and of course my livelihood didn't depend on it. But eventually
                                  I
                                  > > realized worrying didn't help.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's upsetting, though, when I see beautiful cornfields drying
                                  up
                                  > &
                                  > > desperately in need of rain, and the farmers struggling to save
                                  > their
                                  > > crops. This year there was too much rain, and the tomatoes were
                                  > *so*
                                  > > awful that the Amish farm where we've been buying them for years
                                  > > practically gave them away.
                                  > >
                                  > > Used to joke during a looong spell of very little snow, that it
                                  > was all
                                  > > piling up somewhere and was going to hit all at once - then we
                                  got
                                  > the
                                  > > Blizzard of '93, or thereabouts.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > I don't want to dis them completely, I did lean a lot, mostly
                                  > about my-
                                  > > self and that was good.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's good that you can feel that way!
                                  > >
                                  > > On the other hand, I'd done plenty of learning before the cult,
                                  > and would
                                  > > have learned more and better without it. My local library was
                                  > *very*
                                  > > understocked, and I made the mistake of doing as the cult told
                                  me
                                  > to do -
                                  > > studying nothing but cultstuff the first two years. And after
                                  > that, I
                                  > > just slapped the "ecklabel" on excellent spiritual wisdom from
                                  non-
                                  > cult
                                  > > sources. I also gave up some areas of study that I really
                                  loved,
                                  > and
                                  > > didn't even look deeply into some things that interested me,
                                  > simply
                                  > > because the cult said they were "lower" and things I'd already
                                  > been
                                  > > through in past lives.
                                  > >
                                  > > I waited & waited, worked at it, thought I had a great
                                  connection
                                  > with the
                                  > > so-called "master", etc., even forgot about the very specific
                                  > questions I
                                  > > started out with because the cult promised all my questions
                                  would
                                  > be
                                  > > answered eventually. Kept telling myself that evidently I was
                                  > getting
                                  > > more on the "inner" than I was "ready" enough to be allowed to
                                  be
                                  > aware of
                                  > > <gg> especially when it came to the discourses. I'd noticed all
                                  > along
                                  > > that lots of the discourse stuff was the same stuff from the
                                  > books -
                                  > > towards the end, it got to where I barely skimmed them when they
                                  > came in,
                                  > > although I made an effort at studying whatever ones we were
                                  doing
                                  > at
                                  > > Satsang ...
                                  > >
                                  > > Oh! Which reminds me, because of kids & work & travel time for
                                  > the first
                                  > > 10 years or so I couldn't attend eckthings regularly, but the HI
                                  > said that
                                  > > was okay, attend when I could, and she "waived" the rule about
                                  > having to
                                  > > attend *all* of them, miss three and you're out. Towards the
                                  end
                                  > I'd
                                  > > moved to a new area, and was *so* happy when an HI from my old
                                  > area
                                  > > actually traveled to the new one for a Satsang for some new
                                  > recruits! I'd
                                  > > started getting sick then, at the time didn't realize that the
                                  > brand-new
                                  > > house, furnishings, carpeting, etc. where Satsang was held
                                  > aggravated my
                                  > > symptoms, making it hard to get through them without coughing so
                                  > hard I'd
                                  > > wet myself, which needless to say was quite embarrassing. I was
                                  > also
                                  > > especially thankful for these Satsangs because my son was older
                                  &
                                  > could
                                  > > attend too.
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway, when a new series started my health had deteriorated to
                                  > the point
                                  > > where I just couldn't make it, missed three, so the HI called
                                  and
                                  > said I
                                  > > wasn't allowed to attend anymore! I was *shocked* and
                                  > heartbroken - I was
                                  > > at a point in my life where I was able to commit myself more
                                  > deeply to the
                                  > > "outer" cult, looking forward to doing intros & stuff, preparing
                                  > myself
                                  > > for devoting myself totally to it & working hard for it in ways
                                  I
                                  > hadn't
                                  > > been able to do before. I took Satsang very seriously, studying
                                  > and doing
                                  > > the "homework assignments" and attending (with my son) "on the
                                  > inner" when
                                  > > I couldn't get there "physically". None of this mattered. And
                                  by
                                  > banning
                                  > > *me*, she was also banning my son - which I thought was
                                  > *especially*
                                  > > horrible! But she said she'd learned that the cult had rules
                                  for
                                  > a
                                  > > reason, and it was best to obey them.
                                  > >
                                  > > I wasn't as sharp as you, though. I figured there was some
                                  karmic
                                  > reason,
                                  > > some spiritual lesson, and that I somehow *deserved* my health
                                  > problems,
                                  > > and being banned from Satsang, which I *did* consider to be
                                  > especially
                                  > > "holy and sacred" as the cult said it was.
                                  > >
                                  > > Can't help but contrast this with Catholicism - sure, maybe it's
                                  > the
                                  > > biggest cult in the world & young boys need to be careful about
                                  > bending
                                  > > over around priests, but you can bet that even when the Church
                                  is
                                  > bankrupt
                                  > > there will still be good & committed priests, and you can go to
                                  > Mass even
                                  > > if you don't contribute *anything* - and if you're sick, they
                                  > bring the
                                  > > Eucharist to you.
                                  > >
                                  > > > And who says nothing good came out of this BSE experience!!!
                                  > > > Anyway, thank you all for being there and for letting me vent,
                                  I
                                  > do
                                  > > appreciate it.
                                  > >
                                  > > Glad we could help! And I'd like to thank you for telling your
                                  > story -
                                  > > I'm *genuinely* happy that you got out early!!! If any
                                  thoughts
                                  > or
                                  > > issues come up that you'd like to talk about or anything, feel
                                  > free to
                                  > > post again! You might also be interested in
                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Execkankar - it's a smaller &
                                  > more "private"
                                  > > group, and eckbashing isn't required. <gg>
                                  > >
                                  > > Gawd, I am *so* bad - I'm thinking about cows, remembering one
                                  > time
                                  > > driving to work & passing a pen where there were a couple of
                                  sweet
                                  > little
                                  > > calves frolicking in the sunshine while their mothers watched
                                  > contentedly,
                                  > > and thinking how sweet and adorable they were, and then thinking
                                  > of the
                                  > > yummy steak I'd be having for dinner that night. <gg>
                                  > >
                                  > > I am honored that ET has been visited by a member of that
                                  > underappreciated
                                  > > and sadly becoming rare, very special "breed" - the farmer!
                                  Don't
                                  > mean to
                                  > > sound corny or anything, but farmers deserve a more respect than
                                  > they get
                                  > > - and better prices for what they produce, and more support to
                                  get
                                  > you
                                  > > through the hard times! If we think we've got problems now with
                                  > the oil-
                                  > > producing countries, just wait until farming is completely taken
                                  > over by
                                  > > big corporate agri-business!!!
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyway...take care now, and I hope next year will bring
                                  > appropriate
                                  > > sunshine & rain, and a nice long growing season!! Thanks again
                                  > for
                                  > > posting!
                                  > >
                                  > > Hugs,
                                  > >
                                  > > Sharon
                                  > >
                                  > > PS - I just remembered, Klemp grew up on a farm! What the hECK
                                  > happened
                                  > > to him???? I guess he just never really "got it".
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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