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  • ~ E ~
    Hi Voice of Hu, aka JM, (won t use your real name.) There isn t a lot to add to what everyone has shared here, other than I am sooo glad to see you posting
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 14, 2004
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      Hi Voice of Hu, aka JM, (won't use your real name.)
      There isn't a lot to add to what everyone has shared here, other than I am sooo glad to see you posting here! I have thought about you often! Remember me, your soul sister Elizabeth, also known from my hu-chat days.... and our private chats.
      I did respond to some of your current post listed below:

      <snipped>

      >I received my pink slip so I had to have a trip to abroad for
      receive my outer incitations you don't know how much troubles
      and much negative energy was with my pink slip ...

      *** Jm I recall that you are a very intuitive loving person. And for you to be aware that this pink slip contained negative energy is a sure indication of this awareness you have. You were picking up on the untruth about how these secret words are "gotten on the inner" by the HI, when in fact they are listed in the initiators booklet. Your secret word wasn't so secret after all....

      >when I reached to my destination and I met with a Mahdis I really
      expectation met with a holy man ..
      instead of it I faced with a
      flirty
      man that couldnt; feeling any kinds of spiritual vibration form him
      at all!!!

      *** I'm very sorry you experienced this JM!!! I know that coming from your country, (which can be very dangerous in fact) to come in contact with such a person is very sad! But, it does not surprise me. And like most Orgs, they will sweep it under a rug... make excuses, and tell you to keep quiet and not tell anyone.... it is called abuse of power! This person has most likely been doing this to women for a very long time. And really should be reported to others besides ESC!

      >that secret word was really negative for me and wasn't suitable for
      me

      *** Because it isn't a secret word! And to understand how an initiator gets these secret words; no wonder you felt ill!

      >I had a discussion with Shams-E-Tabriz ..he told to my soul :"please
      leave them. they are coward come on toward us "!!!
      it was amazing for me that how Shams talked about them !!!and yet
      they know
      Shams as one of THEIR masters !!! :)

      *** I have been reading some of Shams work with different eyes. Amazing to find out along with many other realizations, that he is not an Eck Master! LOL, you have to understand a little history about me, and I'm sure you recall, I joined Eck when I was 13. Was a member for 30 years, before I finally left!!! It has been 10 months since taking that independent step into real freedom.

      JM, if you still do your spiritual exercises on that mountain top you have frequently spoken about. That is your real place to connect to "your higher self".... No need for any spacial words, or initiations! Just an open loving heart, and a desire to connect with source. You can do that right where you are in your own country, in your heart you know this, and have been doing it all along!

      >so I felt that my soul come out from
      a real "soul jail "
      then i could regain my calmness when I udnerstand that in fact I
      released from
      the names and labels ...

      *** This is a wonderful way to describe your new awareness into freedom! I feel the same way. :-)


      >yes I dearly appreciate from the Eckanakr for helped me to see the
      truth :)
      and opened my eyes to truth and to that freedom lies beyond the
      Eckanakr or
      any kinds of religions and names :)

      *** I hope Sharon will allow this part of my post to go through :-)... JM, if you would like to connect with some of your "old friends", I started a group in November, which is getting a face lift so to speak. You are most welcome to join us. Many of your dear friends you have spoken to on hu-chat and privately, belong to this group. If you are interested you can check us out at:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LetYourSpiritSoar/

      Or join the group at:

      LetYourSpiritSoar-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

      Or you can private e-mail me for info at:

      whitefeatherliz@...

      Wishing you the best my sister/friend!

      Love and Hugs,

      Elizabeth




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Karen Hunter
      I had always wondered about those secret words, esp. since I felt mine never did anything for me...didn t know until now that they came out of an initiator s
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 15, 2004
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        I had always wondered about those secret words, esp. since I felt mine never did anything for me...didn't know until now that they came out of an initiator's book!!!!!!!!!!!...what a scam Eckankar is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is with these HIs who perpetuate the lies?? Rhetorical ? with no true answer, I guess...

        karen

        ~ E ~ <whitefeatherliz@...> wrote:
        Hi Voice of Hu, aka JM, (won't use your real name.)
        There isn't a lot to add to what everyone has shared here, other than I am sooo glad to see you posting here! I have thought about you often! Remember me, your soul sister Elizabeth, also known from my hu-chat days.... and our private chats.
        I did respond to some of your current post listed below:

        <snipped>

        >I received my pink slip so I had to have a trip to abroad for
        receive my outer incitations you don't know how much troubles
        and much negative energy was with my pink slip ...

        *** Jm I recall that you are a very intuitive loving person. And for you to be aware that this pink slip contained negative energy is a sure indication of this awareness you have. You were picking up on the untruth about how these secret words are "gotten on the inner" by the HI, when in fact they are listed in the initiators booklet. Your secret word wasn't so secret after all....

        >when I reached to my destination and I met with a Mahdis I really
        expectation met with a holy man ..
        instead of it I faced with a
        flirty
        man that couldnt; feeling any kinds of spiritual vibration form him
        at all!!!

        *** I'm very sorry you experienced this JM!!! I know that coming from your country, (which can be very dangerous in fact) to come in contact with such a person is very sad! But, it does not surprise me. And like most Orgs, they will sweep it under a rug... make excuses, and tell you to keep quiet and not tell anyone.... it is called abuse of power! This person has most likely been doing this to women for a very long time. And really should be reported to others besides ESC!

        >that secret word was really negative for me and wasn't suitable for
        me

        *** Because it isn't a secret word! And to understand how an initiator gets these secret words; no wonder you felt ill!

        >I had a discussion with Shams-E-Tabriz ..he told to my soul :"please
        leave them. they are coward come on toward us "!!!
        it was amazing for me that how Shams talked about them !!!and yet
        they know
        Shams as one of THEIR masters !!! :)

        *** I have been reading some of Shams work with different eyes. Amazing to find out along with many other realizations, that he is not an Eck Master! LOL, you have to understand a little history about me, and I'm sure you recall, I joined Eck when I was 13. Was a member for 30 years, before I finally left!!! It has been 10 months since taking that independent step into real freedom.

        JM, if you still do your spiritual exercises on that mountain top you have frequently spoken about. That is your real place to connect to "your higher self".... No need for any spacial words, or initiations! Just an open loving heart, and a desire to connect with source. You can do that right where you are in your own country, in your heart you know this, and have been doing it all along!

        >so I felt that my soul come out from
        a real "soul jail "
        then i could regain my calmness when I udnerstand that in fact I
        released from
        the names and labels ...

        *** This is a wonderful way to describe your new awareness into freedom! I feel the same way. :-)


        >yes I dearly appreciate from the Eckanakr for helped me to see the
        truth :)
        and opened my eyes to truth and to that freedom lies beyond the
        Eckanakr or
        any kinds of religions and names :)

        *** I hope Sharon will allow this part of my post to go through :-)... JM, if you would like to connect with some of your "old friends", I started a group in November, which is getting a face lift so to speak. You are most welcome to join us. Many of your dear friends you have spoken to on hu-chat and privately, belong to this group. If you are interested you can check us out at:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LetYourSpiritSoar/

        Or join the group at:

        LetYourSpiritSoar-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Or you can private e-mail me for info at:

        whitefeatherliz@...

        Wishing you the best my sister/friend!

        Love and Hugs,

        Elizabeth




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • voiceofhu
        Dear Elizabeth , I m really wonder TO meet you here!!! I can t believe ! you made me very surprised!!! how is possible? you were an old eckists and a great HI
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 15, 2004
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          Dear Elizabeth ,
          I'm really wonder TO meet you here!!! I can't believe !
          you made me very surprised!!! how is possible? you were an old
          eckists
          and a great HI that I knew in ECK ..IN fact during last days
          just I'm in a huge wonder because I can see many of my old Eckists
          friends
          in this group and other spiritual groups..so what happened for you
          guys?!!
          how many of you left the Eckankar during last months?!!!
          it must be hard for you because even for me that I have been only 4
          years in ECK
          leave that path was hard and yet sometimes I 'm thoughtful that if I
          did right action?!
          but my heart dosen't want come back ...at all ..so I respect to my
          heart :)
          wow it must be a big storm that Eckankar involve with it during last
          months
          and I'm not wonder it could be foresee very well ...
          anyway everybody and everythings in this wolrd is in own right place
          just I'm wonder and so glad that meet with most of my best lovely
          friends that I had
          in Eckankar groups ..here :)
          dear Elizabeth I really enjoyed from your post here and yet I'm in
          wonder..
          thank you very much for invited me for join to your group I accept
          it ..
          specialy some of my old friends are there too :)

          with much love :JM


          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, ~ E ~ <whitefeatherliz@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hi Voice of Hu, aka JM, (won't use your real name.)
          > There isn't a lot to add to what everyone has shared here, other
          than I am sooo glad to see you posting here! I have thought about
          you often! Remember me, your soul sister Elizabeth, also known from
          my hu-chat days.... and our private chats.
          > I did respond to some of your current post listed below:
          >
          > <snipped>
          >
          > >I received my pink slip so I had to have a trip to abroad for
          > receive my outer incitations you don't know how much troubles
          > and much negative energy was with my pink slip ...
          >
          > *** Jm I recall that you are a very intuitive loving person. And
          for you to be aware that this pink slip contained negative energy is
          a sure indication of this awareness you have. You were picking up
          on the untruth about how these secret words are "gotten on the
          inner" by the HI, when in fact they are listed in the initiators
          booklet. Your secret word wasn't so secret after all....
          >
          > >when I reached to my destination and I met with a Mahdis I really
          > expectation met with a holy man ..
          > instead of it I faced with a
          > flirty
          > man that couldnt; feeling any kinds of spiritual vibration form
          him
          > at all!!!
          >
          > *** I'm very sorry you experienced this JM!!! I know that coming
          from your country, (which can be very dangerous in fact) to come in
          contact with such a person is very sad! But, it does not surprise
          me. And like most Orgs, they will sweep it under a rug... make
          excuses, and tell you to keep quiet and not tell anyone.... it is
          called abuse of power! This person has most likely been doing this
          to women for a very long time. And really should be reported to
          others besides ESC!
          >
          > >that secret word was really negative for me and wasn't suitable
          for
          > me
          >
          > *** Because it isn't a secret word! And to understand how an
          initiator gets these secret words; no wonder you felt ill!
          >
          > >I had a discussion with Shams-E-Tabriz ..he told to my
          soul :"please
          > leave them. they are coward come on toward us "!!!
          > it was amazing for me that how Shams talked about them !!!and yet
          > they know
          > Shams as one of THEIR masters !!! :)
          >
          > *** I have been reading some of Shams work with different eyes.
          Amazing to find out along with many other realizations, that he is
          not an Eck Master! LOL, you have to understand a little history
          about me, and I'm sure you recall, I joined Eck when I was 13. Was
          a member for 30 years, before I finally left!!! It has been 10
          months since taking that independent step into real freedom.
          >
          > JM, if you still do your spiritual exercises on that mountain top
          you have frequently spoken about. That is your real place to
          connect to "your higher self".... No need for any spacial words, or
          initiations! Just an open loving heart, and a desire to connect
          with source. You can do that right where you are in your own
          country, in your heart you know this, and have been doing it all
          along!
          >
          > >so I felt that my soul come out from
          > a real "soul jail "
          > then i could regain my calmness when I udnerstand that in fact I
          > released from
          > the names and labels ...
          >
          > *** This is a wonderful way to describe your new awareness into
          freedom! I feel the same way. :-)
          >
          >
          > >yes I dearly appreciate from the Eckanakr for helped me to see
          the
          > truth :)
          > and opened my eyes to truth and to that freedom lies beyond the
          > Eckanakr or
          > any kinds of religions and names :)
          >
          > *** I hope Sharon will allow this part of my post to go through :-
          )... JM, if you would like to connect with some of your "old
          friends", I started a group in November, which is getting a face
          lift so to speak. You are most welcome to join us. Many of your
          dear friends you have spoken to on hu-chat and privately, belong to
          this group. If you are interested you can check us out at:
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LetYourSpiritSoar/
          >
          > Or join the group at:
          >
          > LetYourSpiritSoar-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Or you can private e-mail me for info at:
          >
          > whitefeatherliz@y...
          >
          > Wishing you the best my sister/friend!
          >
          > Love and Hugs,
          >
          > Elizabeth
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Elizabeth
          voiceofhu wrote: Dear Elizabeth , ... you made me very surprised!!! how is possible? you were an old eckists and a great HI that I
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 16, 2004
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            voiceofhu <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Dear Elizabeth ,
            >I'm really wonder TO meet you here!!! I can't believe !
            you made me very surprised!!! how is possible? you were an old
            eckists
            and a great HI that I knew in ECK .

            *** Well, it is called needing to be honest, allowing my true self to recognize untruths, and letting go of the illusion that there would be more integrity and honesty within the Org. than what I was seeing over the years. Eckankar changed some of the guidelines in past years for who and how an H.I. is appointed as an Initiator, and ESA. They don't just give a person that job until they have been a clergy for several years. They need more time to brainwash them, so they will follow like a sheep.... When I first received my initiators booklet, I read it from cover to cover, looking for something real "Spiritual", and basically all I got was doubts about this whole process called initiations. The secret words are listed in the book, although they claim they are only there to help guide the H.I., if they don't get a word on the inner. Okay, well after awhile, and years of doing these initiations, some H.I.'s can pretend to be getting secret words on the inner..... funny thing
            about this; after I received my second, I realized I didn't want the initiator giving me my word. After the second, the person receiving the initiation is instructed to go into contemplation for their word during the ceremony. But if for some reason, a word is not forthcoming, they well help you along.... when I took my 3rd and 4th and after the contemplation section, was asked if I received my word. Even if I didn't I told them yes, just so that I could go home and research to discover my own. Why have so many H.I.'s left the path? Well, the Org will call it "shaking the tree to get rid of those bad apples" LOL, but the fact is, to some of us truth and integrity are more important than power trips!

            One other thing I would like to mention for some of those that don't get to comment here on some of the postings; ;-)

            I have recently been labeled living my life like a "psychic holier than thou" what ever? And that I was spinning all sorts of witchery magic spells or exercises while I was an eckist.... fact of the matter is, those spiritual exercises were in fact directed by ESC, and their RESA structure! The were given to the H.I.'s to go back to the local areas and share with the membership. Back then they were acceptable and called the ECK. Now they are being called witch craft or psychic now that this H.I. is no longer one of their members! :-P

            >how many of you left the Eckankar during last months?!!!
            it must be hard for you because even for me that I have been only 4
            years in ECK
            leave that path was hard and yet sometimes I 'm thoughtful that if I
            did right action?!

            *** I left 10 months ago. And yes I had some second thoughts at first. It is sort of like when you turn 18 and supposedly become an adult... it is kind of scary at first going out into the world alone! But deep down inside I knew I was a strong individual, and just needed some time to get to know "me" again.

            Similar to this poem:

            Love after Love

            The time will come
            when, with elation,
            you will greet yourself arriving
            at your own door, in your own mirror,
            and each will smile at the other�s welcome,

            and say, sit here. Eat.
            You will love again the stranger who was your self.
            Give wine. Give bread. Give back your heart
            to itself, to the stranger who has loved you

            all your life, whom you ignored
            for another, who knows you by heart.
            Take down the love letters from the bookshelf,

            the photographs, the desperate notes,
            peel your own image from the mirror.
            Sit. Feast on your life.


            ~ Derek Walcott ~

            (Sea Grapes, 1976)

            http://www.panhala.net/Archive/Love_after_Love.html

            >but my heart doesn't want come back ...at all ..so I respect to my
            heart :)

            *** JM this is the perfect answer! Respect and listen to your heart!


            >anyway everybody and everything is in this world is in own right place

            *** Very well said. And with each person, they are experiencing exactly what they need for their own growth. So, why not allow people to just be... :)

            Love and Hugs to you JM!

            Elizabeth




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • brighttigress@yahoo.com
            Hi JM - Welcome! It s especially nice to see that someone from your country was able to acess the information that helps one to get out of the cult. Right
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 22, 2004
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              Hi JM -

              Welcome! It's especially nice to see that someone from your country
              was able to acess the information that helps one to get out of the
              cult. Right now I don't remember all the little details of your
              previous posts, other than noting with interest how often so many
              people get "inner messages" and little "experiences", or just
              "feelings" that seem to be warning us to either stay out or get out.

              Even though you were a member for "only" four years, often those early
              years are *very* intense and we're so entranced by it all that it may
              well be even *more* difficult to leave than it is for the long-timers,
              who often have been questioning for a long time, but they've sort of
              gotten into an "eckrut" and it's become such a major part of their
              lives they can't imagine life without it - so for some, it's not as
              intensely emotional as it is for some "newbie" members.

              Geez - am I making any sense here?

              Anyway, I won't mention your country publicly since you may not want
              that - I looked it up in our membership list here. I've corresponded
              with two young men from your country - one is a very busy grad student
              here in the US, who was almost recruited by a very pushy Christian
              cult when he came here but thanks to the internet, he found out that
              it was a cult. And in the process, learned the truth about eckankar,
              too - he was concerned because he had some eckist friends, and wanted
              to help them wake up & get out.

              The other cyberfriend from your country was just sort of looking
              around for information, and wasn't a member yet. We've been writing
              for way over a year, maybe even two or three, but it's a bit difficult
              because his English isn't that great, and he has limited internet
              access. Anyway, mostly we "chat" just about life in general, and the
              differences in our cultures - for example, like most young men
              everywhere, one of his main interests in life is....young women! <gg>
              He seems fascinated with American dating/mating customs - and even
              though we discussed it a lot, I was still surprised very recently when
              I commented that maybe he'd meet a nice girl at his new job - and he
              replied that it doesn't work that way in your country, where you still
              have "arranged" marriages. Actually, I think your way may work out
              better than ours, considering the American divorce rate - but I was
              still surprised when he told me that wouldn't happen, because your
              country's workplace "customs" are so different from America's,
              evidently. In America, people often "hook up" at their jobs.

              Well...I'm rambling here, but one thing I often think about since I
              left the cult & have been speaking out about it, is....how does
              joining or leaving e-cult "work" in other countries, in the context of
              different customs?

              For example, Klemp often holds up African chelas as excellent examples
              - and the way the cult talks, eckankar is really taking over some
              African countries. I remember one eckstory about a seminar where
              something like 10,000 people crammed into a convention center with the
              capacity for less than half that number. Although I was a true-blue
              eckie at the time, I still felt that perhaps Klemp was exaggerating a
              bit.

              I've heard privately from several Africans who woke up and got out -
              and the stories are basically the same ones Americans tell. For
              example, horrible abuses by HIs.

              Well...I'd find it interesting if anyone from other countries,
              especially those with a very different culture & customs, had any
              comments which might be helpful for my understanding of how culture &
              customs influence people's thinking, and any insights as to how both
              joining and/or leaving might be "different" elsewhere.

              I'm glad to see that you're meeting former eckfriends here on the
              "other side"! <gg> I left in 1998, and still feel a bit sad about
              some of the dear people I was close to. On the other hand, there are
              quite a few who showed their true ugly colors as soon as I left! A
              few old eckfriends have since left the cult, which always came as a
              pleasant surprise!

              Just one thought here - especially since Ford Johnson's doing what
              he's doing - don't be afraid to challenge (and dump!) just about
              anything and everything you've "believed in" up until now. I say that
              because basically, that's what *I* did and it's been wonderful and
              more rewarding than I could have imagined! But, I've also seen that,
              especially at first, some people on leaving like to continue basically
              doing & thinking & believing the same basic stuff they had in e-kult.
              It's often more "comfy" that way, and that's understandable. But I
              personally like a bit more "excitement" in my life, and I've found
              that starting from the point that I know *nothing* and the next day I
              know even *less* is actually very rewarding! Just remembered, this
              has been discussed here before - another exie commented on how great
              it is to be free of the burden of "knowing"!

              I'm thinking again to what you wrote, about the "signs" you were
              getting - and my own back when I first joined. Actually, I kept
              getting them the whole time I was a member - but I stifled my "doubts"
              and "questions" and fought my true "inner voice" - which I've actually
              always sort of thought of as my "guardian angel", and as an eckist
              identified as the "mahanta". Now, it's still there - but I don't
              necessarily listen, or trust "it", whatever the heck "it" is. Heck,
              I'm not even necessarily sure who or what *I* am!! <gg>

              That's another "nasty" thing I've realized about the cult - although
              it talks about how we are "Soul" - which to me, means a "wholeness"
              about ourselves, actually what the cult does is split and separate us
              from our "whole" Self, whatever the heck *that* is! It "teaches" all
              that nonsense about "higher" and "lower", and our various bodies -
              most of which are NOT good and according to the cult, prevent us from
              knowing and seeing ourSelves as "Soul" - but if you look at it closely
              and really *think* about it (and thinking is NOT a bad thing!!!), what
              they call "Soul" is actually a totally brainwashed and controlled
              eckanborg cultpuppy creature that is NOT our "true" selves.

              Am I making any sense? Probably not!! My mind's elsewhere - right
              now, focused on other things, especially the wonderful thunderstorm
              that I hope ends before noon!!

              Anyway - once again, welcome! To you and all the other "newbies"!!
              It may be a bit rough & confusing at first, but believe me, freedom
              from the cult is absolutely *wonderful*!!

              And....thanks to everyone else who's posting here while I'm on
              "vacation"! You know, since I've got all my eckangarbage out of
              storage, I think I'm going to take a bit of time to dig out some stuff
              I haven't made public before, which I think people are going to find
              quite interesting!

              Gotta run....have a great day, everyone!

              Hugs,

              Sharon
            • voiceofhu
              Thank you dear Sharon :)... and thank you dear Jade this is a great post I agree with you totally :) with Love :JM ... the ... many ... in ... and ...
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 22, 2004
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                Thank you dear Sharon :)...

                and thank you dear Jade this is a great post I agree with you
                totally :)

                with Love :JM


                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, incensestiks <no_reply@y...>
                wrote:
                > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, brighttigress@y... wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi JM -
                > >
                > > Welcome! It's especially nice to see that someone from your
                > country
                > > was able to acess the information that helps one to get out of
                the
                > > cult. Right now I don't remember all the little details of your
                > > previous posts, other than noting with interest how often so
                many
                > > people get "inner messages" and little "experiences", or just
                > > "feelings" that seem to be warning us to either stay out or get
                > out.
                >
                > Besides the doubts and questions we get over the years as a borg,
                in
                > regard to what's told to us as a member....the one's we poo-paw
                and
                > brush aside for years....for me, for a year or two before I left I
                > kept getting initiation type dreams and wondered what that was all
                > about because, technically, I wasn't anywhere near getting my next
                > initiation. In hindsight, I can see it was initiations -
                intiations
                > into a higher thought - MY OWN! During my last 3 months in the
                cult
                > my inner voice kept telling me to leave. Of course I kept fighting
                > it and chalking it up to the "kal", but eventually, I'd had
                enough
                > abuse from HI's, other eckists, and such, and sat down one day and
                > asked myself the right questions this time. Usually the big M puts
                > the blame on the person if something is not right in their lives.
                > Instead, this time, I asked what's wrong with the org that so many
                > people in eckankar are unloving, cruel and abusive, when, in fact,
                > it is suppose to teach people how to love. I got the
                answer.....the
                > teachings are coming from Harold, the so-called mahanta. He is the
                > one that puts out, and approves, the discourses, the workshops,
                the
                > discussions, etc. Everything in eckankar was coming from THAT
                > source - Harold and the org in MN! I knew immediately that what
                > the "detractors" had been saying is the truth, and I quit on the
                > spot!
                >
                > I had only read a little of the "detractor" stuff, and mainly let
                it
                > be because I didn't really understand what they were talking
                about.
                > I live far from the maddening crowd, so am a little behind,
                > sometimes, on what goes on. And when one sticks their nose up
                their
                > butts, even with being online, one can still be behind the times.
                > But as soon as I got my answer and quit, even though I hadn't read
                > much about the "other" side, it all fell into place for me, and I
                > understood everything. All the things that I had poo-pawed in the
                > past started coming up in my mind, and from a different point of
                > perspective, it all made sense to me why it happens and why the
                org
                > allows it. It was then that I did a search and devoured everything
                I
                > could about what the "other" side was saying, and I understood
                much
                > more.
                >
                > So, that's my story. I guess as humans we have this need for
                > answers, so we accept other people's answers. But, in my
                experience,
                > eventually we realize who really has the answers - ourselves!
                >
                > jade
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