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Re: [eckankartruth] another question

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  • Spirit Dancer
    Dear fishn ;-) Maybe you would get your answers you appear ??? to be fishn for, elsewhere..... might try a.r.e.; alt.religion.eckankar, or how about
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 21, 2003
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      Dear fishn ;-)
      Maybe you would get your answers you appear ??? to be fishn for, elsewhere..... might try a.r.e.; alt.religion.eckankar, or how about this link www.thetruth-seeker.com/openletter.asp, or www.onepublishinginc.com , or how about all the wonderful links provide by the eckankartruth moderator at the main web site, provided for all to research and conclude their own answers?
      cheers :-)


      fishnik2003 <fishnik2003@...> wrote:
      prior to the time that the eck literature came into my life, i didnt
      consider myself to be particularly spiritual in any sense. i didnt
      read spiritual stuff, never heard of masters, inner planes, or even
      an obe.

      at some point i began to have certain experiences that i can only
      describe as spiritual (know no other way to characterize them). some
      of these experiences, dream and otherwise, concerned images,masters,
      etc. associated with eckankar. it was only a year or so after these
      experiences began that i encountered the outer
      organization......this is one of the reasons i was so quick to take
      to the eck teachings. there, in print, were the very things id been
      experiencing. and a couple of the men id been seeing.

      how can one account for this???

      fishnik



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    • Sharon
      ... I was just sort of enjoying my life, living in the moment and appreciating all the love and happiness, while waiting for Jehovah to destroy me at
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 23, 2003
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        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "fishnik2003" <fishnik2003@y...>
        wrote:


        > prior to the time that the eck literature came into my life, i didnt


        > consider myself to be particularly spiritual in any sense. i didnt


        > read spiritual stuff, never heard of masters, inner planes, or even


        > an obe.


        >




        I was just sort of enjoying my life, living in the moment and
        appreciating all the love and happiness, while waiting for "Jehovah"
        to destroy me at Armageddon. I was quite happy with my choice, since
        I wanted *nothing* to do with such a nasty & hateful "God", and the
        *last* thing I wanted was to spend eternity in a "paradise" filled
        with JWs!! <gg>




        I was familiar with a lot of things that "fit" into e-kult, though.
        Since I was a kid, I'd loved scifi/fantasy, mythology, scary movies,
        the "occult", etc. - played around with Wicca, which I still love.
        And I'd had obe's, knew a lot of "pagan" types, and also a lot of
        people (mostly young ones) who could astral project & bop around those
        "other planes" as easily as I breathe, so there was nothing really
        "new" or especially interesting in e-kultstuff, other than I accepted
        their "spirichul" labels for what's actually totally
        ordinary-but-not-physical stuff. I'm laughing - I just remembered
        something I'd forgotten for a long time - my first OBE!! <ggg> It
        scared the hell out of me - I was in my mid-20's, heading down the
        highway for my night horticulture class, when all of a sudden I was up
        in the sky, looking down on my beloved '55 Chevy which was heading
        down the road without me!!! Needless to say, I popped back "in" very
        quickly - but not before taking a good look around and seeing some
        things that I later went & confirmed were really there, and I wasn't
        just hallucinating or something.






        > at some point i began to have certain experiences that i can only


        > describe as spiritual (know no other way to characterize them). some


        > of these experiences, dream and otherwise, concerned images,masters,


        > etc. associated with eckankar. it was only a year or so after these


        > experiences began that i encountered the outer


        > organization......this is one of the reasons i was so quick to take


        > to the eck teachings. there, in print, were the very things id been


        > experiencing. and a couple of the men id been seeing.


        >




        My pre-cult experiences were in full (but altered) consciousness - but
        there was one very weird & striking dream-experience with a guy in a
        robe...oh geez I don't feel like typing it again...flipped to Google
        archives, found an old one:




        " Because my first eckdream, before I'd


        made the mistake of picking up the eckbooks and the library, falling
        for


        it, and joining, was one in which Klemp led me down some stairs from a


        place of Light, said this was his father's mansion and he wanted me to


        live there, and he was putting me into a dark, windowless room with
        dark


        paneling and big heavy dusty furniture and a horrible giant-screen TV.


        And I asked him, wasn't there a nice little cottage on the grounds


        somewhere?"




        This is a brief description - the difference is, in the dream Klemp
        wasn't wearing glasses, and in the first picture I saw of him, he was.



        Because he quoted the Bible in the dream, I assumed he was "spiritual"
        and trustworthy. But considering what he & eckists in general
        *really* think of the Bible (Klemp says it's DEAD), doesn't it look
        like he was being deceptive to gain my trust? And sure, most people
        are impressed with mansions & the room he wanted to put me in - but it
        wasn't *my* idea of somewhere I wanted to live!




        After I joined the cult, I interpreted the dream as a "good" thing,
        and thought it was my first initiation. I thought this dream was
        closely connected with the other "experiences" I was having - that was
        a *major* error!! There's another way to look at it - he was
        bringing me DOWN the stairs, away from that place of light which *was*
        in line with the non-dream "experiences" - and oddly enough, there was
        another time where I was altered-but-conscious, incredibly beautiful,
        and as it was happening a voice said "This has nothing to do with
        eckankar". However, I wasn't able to separate my "real" from the
        cult's "false" which was slowly insinuating itself into my very
        being!!




        Over the years, the cult's pseudo-experiences obliterated the "real"
        ones.




        I've gotta do this for a website. I don't feel like I'm really
        communicating well enough anymore.






        > how can one account for this???


        >




        There are *many* explanations. Including one from The Twitch Himself,
        where he talked about pesky astral entities who like to play tricks on
        humans.




        I don't think of "spiritual" vs. "physical", "higher" and "lower"
        worlds, planes, whatever. There's physical and non-physical, and
        that's it. Non-physical is just plain non-physical, and I believe
        these things are totally normal & natural and a part of human
        evolution. Non-physical isn't anymore "spiritual" than "physical" is.




        Time is "different" in the non-physical, too. And it's been proven
        that even memories are unreliable...and false memories can indeed be
        "implanted" in people by therapists who may not even realize they're
        doing it to people.




        There are just too many other possibilities. Non-physical beings can
        take on different appearances just like we put on Halloween costumes.




        Ford Johnson does give a good explanation of one of many possibilities
        for these things, and I've also seen others. Seems to me I've read
        some excellent Ken Wilber stuff about this, things I want to explore
        more but haven't gotten to it.




        Don't you think that a *real* master, physical or non-physical,
        wouldn't have to stoop to plagiarism? That's ridiculous!! It's as
        laughable as the baloney the cult is "teaching" now, trying to
        downplay the *real* reasons why so many long-timers have dropped out
        over the years - that Twitch had to urgently use whoever was handy to
        "get the word out" in a very short time, so he just grabbed the
        nearest person & quickly turned them into HIs and they weren't really
        "ready" for it. Ha!!




        Just as only a certain percentage of the population can be hypnotized,
        only a certain percentage of people are able to "receive", I think,
        and "receivers" do it on different levels, sort of - also, there are
        some beliefs in various places that one (or many) can actually create
        "beings" who can also take on lives of their own. One place I've seen
        this mentioned is in connection with Tibetan Buddhism, in one of
        Alexandra David-Neel's books, which Twitch was familiar with. So...a
        possibility is that Rebizarre is literally a twitch-creation who
        actually now has a "life" which includes the ability to insert himself
        into people's "pasts", before Rebizarre himself actually existed. Do
        you know what I mean?




        What I still consider my "real" experiences, well...although e-stuff
        did (especially at first) seem to really be "The Answer", as time went
        on I felt more & more that my experiences didn't really "fit" - for
        many reasons. They were summed up more accurately by non-eck
        "mystics" - Rumi & other "mystic" poets, and for me, Christian mystics
        - especially Catholics like John of the Cross & too many to mention -
        except I had to "dump" a lot of the Christian imagery & symbolism they
        used to express themselves.




        Well...I don't feel like I'm communicating well here, but I hope
        you've gotten some of what I'm trying to express.




        I'm glad others have responded to you here! I personally appreciate
        your posting here, too - the issue of having current members post here
        for whatever reasons can be a bit tricky, and I have mixed feelings
        about it, but for some reason I "approved" your posts without a second
        thought. I'm not sure if I "felt" you were being honestly open &
        respectful, or if there was a definite difference in your post
        compared to other current members. But I'm just *really* happy,
        because it seems like what I've always hoped for here, that "both
        sides" could simply ask questions & "chat" about our own personal
        experiences, feelings, beliefs, whatever, so that others could simply
        read both sides & make up their own minds - however, this does *not*
        (IMO) mean I want to have a forum where the "good" points of e-kult
        are discussed. That's like subtle eckmissionary stuff. And although
        I do a lot of "eckbashing" it sort of goes with the "job" <gg>, but on
        a personal level I want current members to feel free to ask questions
        without have to worry about being personally insulted or anything. On
        the other hand, a current member can be asking questions and at the
        same time, inside themselves they already have the answers they
        *really* want, which will help them to continue their membership
        comfortably. If this is the way they're feeling, this is one of those
        things that perhaps former members just somehow pick up on and respond
        to unconsciously.




        You know, I think I oughtta quit before I get even *more* confused &
        confusing!!




        And I think I've realized that here in cyberspace, there is just no
        way to "goof off" for awhile and then go back and catch up! <gg>




        Well...I gotta go, I'm hoping I helped a little bit! And I hope you
        continue asking good questions - but oh horrors, I *do* hope you don't
        turn into what recently happened with two other posters here - it
        turned out they were actually current members with the cult "agenda"
        in mind, and they turned rude & abusive.




        On the other hand, if you decide to stay in and announce it here, I
        hope you won't get "abused" for it. My personal feeling is hey,
        you've made your own decision after thinking and asking questions -
        and it's neither good nor bad, it simply "is". I personally identify
        with a lot of the things you've said about asking questions within the
        eck "community", though. Funny, when I was in it, I just accepted it
        - but I could only "stifle" my questions for so long, and the
        party-line pseudo-answers just weren't working anymore.




        Hugs,




        Sharon
      • Sharon
        I just skimmed over the post I made yesterday, and wasn t surprised that I sort of missed writing what s sort of the whole point I wanted to make about
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 24, 2003
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          I just skimmed over the post I made yesterday, and wasn't surprised
          that I sort of missed writing what's sort of the whole point I wanted
          to make about "eckmaster sightings" ....




          The cult "teaches" how protection is needed from dream invasions by
          black magicians, etc., so doesn't it make sense that it's just as
          likely that "eckmasters" are actually "black magicians" and these
          "spiritual experiences" are actually psychic invasion?




          There are plenty of other examples where the cult accuses others of
          doing various things, to distract people from seeing that it's
          actually *eckankar* that's doing it!




          I frequently use the example of a "native" who's suddenly taken to
          "civilization" - seeing an airplane, they would naturally assume that
          the people on it are "gods".




          And right here on earth, we've got beautiful places like the Taj Mahal
          - right next door to horribly impoverished slums. It's all earth.
          Neither is more or less "spiritual" than the other. I think the
          non-physical worlds are the same way, and not at all those linear
          heirarchal "god worlds" portrayed in various "god world charts".




          So, I don't think we 21st-century humans are as "evolved" and smart as
          we like to think we are.




          Hugs,




          Sharon
        • Spirit Dancer
          Hey Ford posted my contribution from a.r.e. why I left Eckankar on his truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :) Thought
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 24, 2003
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            Hey Ford posted my contribution from a.r.e. "why I left Eckankar" on his truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :) Thought I'd mention, I went by Whitefeather ;-)

            ~Spirit Dancer~ Elizabeth



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          • Linda B
            ... truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :) Thought I d mention, I went by Whitefeather ;-) ... As well he should : ) It s
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 24, 2003
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              > Hey Ford posted my contribution from a.r.e. "why I left Eckankar" on his
              truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :)
              Thought I'd mention, I went by Whitefeather ;-)
              >
              > ~Spirit Dancer~ Elizabeth

              As well he should : ) It's a thoughtful and relevant post. I said it
              before and I'll say it again - to me, the execkists' posts have been so much
              more sensible and logical than most anything offered up by Eckankar.

              I just received Ford's book today. It looks like there's a lot reading
              involved. I get the feeling I'll end up being more of a skimmer. I'll
              ferret out what looks interesting.

              Linda B
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