Re: [eckankartruth] another question
- Dear fishn ;-)
Maybe you would get your answers you appear ??? to be fishn for, elsewhere..... might try a.r.e.; alt.religion.eckankar, or how about this link www.thetruth-seeker.com/openletter.asp, or www.onepublishinginc.com , or how about all the wonderful links provide by the eckankartruth moderator at the main web site, provided for all to research and conclude their own answers?
fishnik2003 <fishnik2003@...> wrote:
prior to the time that the eck literature came into my life, i didnt
consider myself to be particularly spiritual in any sense. i didnt
read spiritual stuff, never heard of masters, inner planes, or even
at some point i began to have certain experiences that i can only
describe as spiritual (know no other way to characterize them). some
of these experiences, dream and otherwise, concerned images,masters,
etc. associated with eckankar. it was only a year or so after these
experiences began that i encountered the outer
organization......this is one of the reasons i was so quick to take
to the eck teachings. there, in print, were the very things id been
experiencing. and a couple of the men id been seeing.
how can one account for this???
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- --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "fishnik2003" <fishnik2003@y...>
> prior to the time that the eck literature came into my life, i didntI was just sort of enjoying my life, living in the moment and
> consider myself to be particularly spiritual in any sense. i didnt
> read spiritual stuff, never heard of masters, inner planes, or even
> an obe.
appreciating all the love and happiness, while waiting for "Jehovah"
to destroy me at Armageddon. I was quite happy with my choice, since
I wanted *nothing* to do with such a nasty & hateful "God", and the
*last* thing I wanted was to spend eternity in a "paradise" filled
with JWs!! <gg>
I was familiar with a lot of things that "fit" into e-kult, though.
Since I was a kid, I'd loved scifi/fantasy, mythology, scary movies,
the "occult", etc. - played around with Wicca, which I still love.
And I'd had obe's, knew a lot of "pagan" types, and also a lot of
people (mostly young ones) who could astral project & bop around those
"other planes" as easily as I breathe, so there was nothing really
"new" or especially interesting in e-kultstuff, other than I accepted
their "spirichul" labels for what's actually totally
ordinary-but-not-physical stuff. I'm laughing - I just remembered
something I'd forgotten for a long time - my first OBE!! <ggg> It
scared the hell out of me - I was in my mid-20's, heading down the
highway for my night horticulture class, when all of a sudden I was up
in the sky, looking down on my beloved '55 Chevy which was heading
down the road without me!!! Needless to say, I popped back "in" very
quickly - but not before taking a good look around and seeing some
things that I later went & confirmed were really there, and I wasn't
just hallucinating or something.
> at some point i began to have certain experiences that i can onlyMy pre-cult experiences were in full (but altered) consciousness - but
> describe as spiritual (know no other way to characterize them). some
> of these experiences, dream and otherwise, concerned images,masters,
> etc. associated with eckankar. it was only a year or so after these
> experiences began that i encountered the outer
> organization......this is one of the reasons i was so quick to take
> to the eck teachings. there, in print, were the very things id been
> experiencing. and a couple of the men id been seeing.
there was one very weird & striking dream-experience with a guy in a
robe...oh geez I don't feel like typing it again...flipped to Google
archives, found an old one:
" Because my first eckdream, before I'd
made the mistake of picking up the eckbooks and the library, falling
it, and joining, was one in which Klemp led me down some stairs from a
place of Light, said this was his father's mansion and he wanted me to
live there, and he was putting me into a dark, windowless room with
paneling and big heavy dusty furniture and a horrible giant-screen TV.
And I asked him, wasn't there a nice little cottage on the grounds
This is a brief description - the difference is, in the dream Klemp
wasn't wearing glasses, and in the first picture I saw of him, he was.
Because he quoted the Bible in the dream, I assumed he was "spiritual"
and trustworthy. But considering what he & eckists in general
*really* think of the Bible (Klemp says it's DEAD), doesn't it look
like he was being deceptive to gain my trust? And sure, most people
are impressed with mansions & the room he wanted to put me in - but it
wasn't *my* idea of somewhere I wanted to live!
After I joined the cult, I interpreted the dream as a "good" thing,
and thought it was my first initiation. I thought this dream was
closely connected with the other "experiences" I was having - that was
a *major* error!! There's another way to look at it - he was
bringing me DOWN the stairs, away from that place of light which *was*
in line with the non-dream "experiences" - and oddly enough, there was
another time where I was altered-but-conscious, incredibly beautiful,
and as it was happening a voice said "This has nothing to do with
eckankar". However, I wasn't able to separate my "real" from the
cult's "false" which was slowly insinuating itself into my very
Over the years, the cult's pseudo-experiences obliterated the "real"
I've gotta do this for a website. I don't feel like I'm really
communicating well enough anymore.
> how can one account for this???There are *many* explanations. Including one from The Twitch Himself,
where he talked about pesky astral entities who like to play tricks on
I don't think of "spiritual" vs. "physical", "higher" and "lower"
worlds, planes, whatever. There's physical and non-physical, and
that's it. Non-physical is just plain non-physical, and I believe
these things are totally normal & natural and a part of human
evolution. Non-physical isn't anymore "spiritual" than "physical" is.
Time is "different" in the non-physical, too. And it's been proven
that even memories are unreliable...and false memories can indeed be
"implanted" in people by therapists who may not even realize they're
doing it to people.
There are just too many other possibilities. Non-physical beings can
take on different appearances just like we put on Halloween costumes.
Ford Johnson does give a good explanation of one of many possibilities
for these things, and I've also seen others. Seems to me I've read
some excellent Ken Wilber stuff about this, things I want to explore
more but haven't gotten to it.
Don't you think that a *real* master, physical or non-physical,
wouldn't have to stoop to plagiarism? That's ridiculous!! It's as
laughable as the baloney the cult is "teaching" now, trying to
downplay the *real* reasons why so many long-timers have dropped out
over the years - that Twitch had to urgently use whoever was handy to
"get the word out" in a very short time, so he just grabbed the
nearest person & quickly turned them into HIs and they weren't really
"ready" for it. Ha!!
Just as only a certain percentage of the population can be hypnotized,
only a certain percentage of people are able to "receive", I think,
and "receivers" do it on different levels, sort of - also, there are
some beliefs in various places that one (or many) can actually create
"beings" who can also take on lives of their own. One place I've seen
this mentioned is in connection with Tibetan Buddhism, in one of
Alexandra David-Neel's books, which Twitch was familiar with. So...a
possibility is that Rebizarre is literally a twitch-creation who
actually now has a "life" which includes the ability to insert himself
into people's "pasts", before Rebizarre himself actually existed. Do
you know what I mean?
What I still consider my "real" experiences, well...although e-stuff
did (especially at first) seem to really be "The Answer", as time went
on I felt more & more that my experiences didn't really "fit" - for
many reasons. They were summed up more accurately by non-eck
"mystics" - Rumi & other "mystic" poets, and for me, Christian mystics
- especially Catholics like John of the Cross & too many to mention -
except I had to "dump" a lot of the Christian imagery & symbolism they
used to express themselves.
Well...I don't feel like I'm communicating well here, but I hope
you've gotten some of what I'm trying to express.
I'm glad others have responded to you here! I personally appreciate
your posting here, too - the issue of having current members post here
for whatever reasons can be a bit tricky, and I have mixed feelings
about it, but for some reason I "approved" your posts without a second
thought. I'm not sure if I "felt" you were being honestly open &
respectful, or if there was a definite difference in your post
compared to other current members. But I'm just *really* happy,
because it seems like what I've always hoped for here, that "both
sides" could simply ask questions & "chat" about our own personal
experiences, feelings, beliefs, whatever, so that others could simply
read both sides & make up their own minds - however, this does *not*
(IMO) mean I want to have a forum where the "good" points of e-kult
are discussed. That's like subtle eckmissionary stuff. And although
I do a lot of "eckbashing" it sort of goes with the "job" <gg>, but on
a personal level I want current members to feel free to ask questions
without have to worry about being personally insulted or anything. On
the other hand, a current member can be asking questions and at the
same time, inside themselves they already have the answers they
*really* want, which will help them to continue their membership
comfortably. If this is the way they're feeling, this is one of those
things that perhaps former members just somehow pick up on and respond
You know, I think I oughtta quit before I get even *more* confused &
And I think I've realized that here in cyberspace, there is just no
way to "goof off" for awhile and then go back and catch up! <gg>
Well...I gotta go, I'm hoping I helped a little bit! And I hope you
continue asking good questions - but oh horrors, I *do* hope you don't
turn into what recently happened with two other posters here - it
turned out they were actually current members with the cult "agenda"
in mind, and they turned rude & abusive.
On the other hand, if you decide to stay in and announce it here, I
hope you won't get "abused" for it. My personal feeling is hey,
you've made your own decision after thinking and asking questions -
and it's neither good nor bad, it simply "is". I personally identify
with a lot of the things you've said about asking questions within the
eck "community", though. Funny, when I was in it, I just accepted it
- but I could only "stifle" my questions for so long, and the
party-line pseudo-answers just weren't working anymore.
- I just skimmed over the post I made yesterday, and wasn't surprised
that I sort of missed writing what's sort of the whole point I wanted
to make about "eckmaster sightings" ....
The cult "teaches" how protection is needed from dream invasions by
black magicians, etc., so doesn't it make sense that it's just as
likely that "eckmasters" are actually "black magicians" and these
"spiritual experiences" are actually psychic invasion?
There are plenty of other examples where the cult accuses others of
doing various things, to distract people from seeing that it's
actually *eckankar* that's doing it!
I frequently use the example of a "native" who's suddenly taken to
"civilization" - seeing an airplane, they would naturally assume that
the people on it are "gods".
And right here on earth, we've got beautiful places like the Taj Mahal
- right next door to horribly impoverished slums. It's all earth.
Neither is more or less "spiritual" than the other. I think the
non-physical worlds are the same way, and not at all those linear
heirarchal "god worlds" portrayed in various "god world charts".
So, I don't think we 21st-century humans are as "evolved" and smart as
we like to think we are.
- Hey Ford posted my contribution from a.r.e. "why I left Eckankar" on his truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :) Thought I'd mention, I went by Whitefeather ;-)
~Spirit Dancer~ Elizabeth
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> Hey Ford posted my contribution from a.r.e. "why I left Eckankar" on histruthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :)
Thought I'd mention, I went by Whitefeather ;-)
>As well he should : ) It's a thoughtful and relevant post. I said it
> ~Spirit Dancer~ Elizabeth
before and I'll say it again - to me, the execkists' posts have been so much
more sensible and logical than most anything offered up by Eckankar.
I just received Ford's book today. It looks like there's a lot reading
involved. I get the feeling I'll end up being more of a skimmer. I'll
ferret out what looks interesting.