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Re: [eckankartruth] another question

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  • Paul Olson
    We are spiritual beings. Humans have dreams, experience desires and doubts. The longer we live, the more we come to appreciate the mystery of the very
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 21, 2003
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      We are spiritual beings. Humans have dreams, experience desires and doubts. The longer we live, the more we come to appreciate the mystery of the very existence of life itself.

      I certainly don't pretend to know you, or why you have had the experiences you have had, but I will say that the spiritual aspects of life visit us all from time to time, and especially in our youths, or when life gets hard.

      I don't know the societal experiences you were having at the time you began to see inner beings.

      Eckankar is designed to appeal to those who have had OBE's and those who are looking for a group of, let's say, "offbeat" thinkers.

      Obe's are natural experiences as are dreams and they are common to the majority of the race.

      Obviously, when you had these experiences, if in fact it was before you knew anything about eckankar, you did not know how to categorize them in your understanding. When later, you found out about eckankar, it all seemed to fit.

      I believe that this is a fairly common experience, in fact, it kinda mirrors my early experience with eckankar. The problem is that you had the experiences BEFORE you heard of eckankar. Had you never found eckankar, you would still have had those experiences. You could just as easily have found Radha Saomi Satsang, or Lobsang Rampa, or another teacher or group.....Would you then have melded your understanding into that teaching?

      And if you had found no teaching at all, then what in the world you have blamed the experiences on? The fact is, that the experiences we have come out of our own inner selves and NOT from a teacher, teaching, or group.

      I believe that the inner master is a very real being, but I have absolutely no belief that it is in any way affiliated with any teaching, or group on the outer, nor is it personalized an any way through a physical being other than your own inner self.

      I believe that Paul T, Darwin and Harold know this and have twisted this understanding to their own ends in order to secure a better income for themselves. They were all 3, losers so to speak, in their lives before they became self proclaimed instruments of god.

      There is absolutely no proof in fact that substantiates the factual history of eckankar. There is absolutely no factual proof of the existence of any of the eck masters prior to Paul Twitchell. That is saying a LOT, if Paul's claims that there were in fact 970 of these guys before him in the physical world. No history, not a single trace. And too boot, there is a ton of proof that Paul plagiarized his writings, made up his masters, and even substituted names of his own creation for masters that were of other paths, that Paul wrote about prior to proclaiming eckankar.

      And since eckankar claims the exclusive power to bring you into, to directly connect you, to the light and sound, and that one can't be connected until he has the gift of the eck masters presence in his life, then does this mean that all your prior experiences were invalid until you joined eckankar?

      It is very healthy to read the experiences of the saints of other pathways, to look at all the other teachings and to glean out what you can, that you find valid for your own level of understanding.

      eckankars silly claims to exclusivity are absolute rubbish.

      It's not my place, nor do I wish to tell anyone whether to be a member of eckankar or not. I just wish that the members would take a good look at the much bigger life around themselves, a life much more filled with spirituality than eckankar's empty dreams and their little box that they call the universe.

      The problem with eckists, and they simply don't see it, or else they choose to ignore it, is that they have their heads in the sand and are ignoring their own inner selves which is reflected in the universe around themselves. They are in a little box of consciousness. A lot of that consciousness is false in that it was built upon the dreams or illusions of others outside themselves and the eckist has taken this on as his own understanding.....without proof. Thus, they live in an empty hope instead of a self discovered reality.

      Sword
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: fishnik2003
      To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 8:19 PM
      Subject: [eckankartruth] another question


      prior to the time that the eck literature came into my life, i didnt
      consider myself to be particularly spiritual in any sense. i didnt
      read spiritual stuff, never heard of masters, inner planes, or even
      an obe.

      at some point i began to have certain experiences that i can only
      describe as spiritual (know no other way to characterize them). some
      of these experiences, dream and otherwise, concerned images,masters,
      etc. associated with eckankar. it was only a year or so after these
      experiences began that i encountered the outer
      organization......this is one of the reasons i was so quick to take
      to the eck teachings. there, in print, were the very things id been
      experiencing. and a couple of the men id been seeing.

      how can one account for this???

      fishnik


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Spirit Dancer
      Dear fishn ;-) Maybe you would get your answers you appear ??? to be fishn for, elsewhere..... might try a.r.e.; alt.religion.eckankar, or how about
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 21, 2003
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        Dear fishn ;-)
        Maybe you would get your answers you appear ??? to be fishn for, elsewhere..... might try a.r.e.; alt.religion.eckankar, or how about this link www.thetruth-seeker.com/openletter.asp, or www.onepublishinginc.com , or how about all the wonderful links provide by the eckankartruth moderator at the main web site, provided for all to research and conclude their own answers?
        cheers :-)


        fishnik2003 <fishnik2003@...> wrote:
        prior to the time that the eck literature came into my life, i didnt
        consider myself to be particularly spiritual in any sense. i didnt
        read spiritual stuff, never heard of masters, inner planes, or even
        an obe.

        at some point i began to have certain experiences that i can only
        describe as spiritual (know no other way to characterize them). some
        of these experiences, dream and otherwise, concerned images,masters,
        etc. associated with eckankar. it was only a year or so after these
        experiences began that i encountered the outer
        organization......this is one of the reasons i was so quick to take
        to the eck teachings. there, in print, were the very things id been
        experiencing. and a couple of the men id been seeing.

        how can one account for this???

        fishnik



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      • Sharon
        ... I was just sort of enjoying my life, living in the moment and appreciating all the love and happiness, while waiting for Jehovah to destroy me at
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 23, 2003
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          --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "fishnik2003" <fishnik2003@y...>
          wrote:


          > prior to the time that the eck literature came into my life, i didnt


          > consider myself to be particularly spiritual in any sense. i didnt


          > read spiritual stuff, never heard of masters, inner planes, or even


          > an obe.


          >




          I was just sort of enjoying my life, living in the moment and
          appreciating all the love and happiness, while waiting for "Jehovah"
          to destroy me at Armageddon. I was quite happy with my choice, since
          I wanted *nothing* to do with such a nasty & hateful "God", and the
          *last* thing I wanted was to spend eternity in a "paradise" filled
          with JWs!! <gg>




          I was familiar with a lot of things that "fit" into e-kult, though.
          Since I was a kid, I'd loved scifi/fantasy, mythology, scary movies,
          the "occult", etc. - played around with Wicca, which I still love.
          And I'd had obe's, knew a lot of "pagan" types, and also a lot of
          people (mostly young ones) who could astral project & bop around those
          "other planes" as easily as I breathe, so there was nothing really
          "new" or especially interesting in e-kultstuff, other than I accepted
          their "spirichul" labels for what's actually totally
          ordinary-but-not-physical stuff. I'm laughing - I just remembered
          something I'd forgotten for a long time - my first OBE!! <ggg> It
          scared the hell out of me - I was in my mid-20's, heading down the
          highway for my night horticulture class, when all of a sudden I was up
          in the sky, looking down on my beloved '55 Chevy which was heading
          down the road without me!!! Needless to say, I popped back "in" very
          quickly - but not before taking a good look around and seeing some
          things that I later went & confirmed were really there, and I wasn't
          just hallucinating or something.






          > at some point i began to have certain experiences that i can only


          > describe as spiritual (know no other way to characterize them). some


          > of these experiences, dream and otherwise, concerned images,masters,


          > etc. associated with eckankar. it was only a year or so after these


          > experiences began that i encountered the outer


          > organization......this is one of the reasons i was so quick to take


          > to the eck teachings. there, in print, were the very things id been


          > experiencing. and a couple of the men id been seeing.


          >




          My pre-cult experiences were in full (but altered) consciousness - but
          there was one very weird & striking dream-experience with a guy in a
          robe...oh geez I don't feel like typing it again...flipped to Google
          archives, found an old one:




          " Because my first eckdream, before I'd


          made the mistake of picking up the eckbooks and the library, falling
          for


          it, and joining, was one in which Klemp led me down some stairs from a


          place of Light, said this was his father's mansion and he wanted me to


          live there, and he was putting me into a dark, windowless room with
          dark


          paneling and big heavy dusty furniture and a horrible giant-screen TV.


          And I asked him, wasn't there a nice little cottage on the grounds


          somewhere?"




          This is a brief description - the difference is, in the dream Klemp
          wasn't wearing glasses, and in the first picture I saw of him, he was.



          Because he quoted the Bible in the dream, I assumed he was "spiritual"
          and trustworthy. But considering what he & eckists in general
          *really* think of the Bible (Klemp says it's DEAD), doesn't it look
          like he was being deceptive to gain my trust? And sure, most people
          are impressed with mansions & the room he wanted to put me in - but it
          wasn't *my* idea of somewhere I wanted to live!




          After I joined the cult, I interpreted the dream as a "good" thing,
          and thought it was my first initiation. I thought this dream was
          closely connected with the other "experiences" I was having - that was
          a *major* error!! There's another way to look at it - he was
          bringing me DOWN the stairs, away from that place of light which *was*
          in line with the non-dream "experiences" - and oddly enough, there was
          another time where I was altered-but-conscious, incredibly beautiful,
          and as it was happening a voice said "This has nothing to do with
          eckankar". However, I wasn't able to separate my "real" from the
          cult's "false" which was slowly insinuating itself into my very
          being!!




          Over the years, the cult's pseudo-experiences obliterated the "real"
          ones.




          I've gotta do this for a website. I don't feel like I'm really
          communicating well enough anymore.






          > how can one account for this???


          >




          There are *many* explanations. Including one from The Twitch Himself,
          where he talked about pesky astral entities who like to play tricks on
          humans.




          I don't think of "spiritual" vs. "physical", "higher" and "lower"
          worlds, planes, whatever. There's physical and non-physical, and
          that's it. Non-physical is just plain non-physical, and I believe
          these things are totally normal & natural and a part of human
          evolution. Non-physical isn't anymore "spiritual" than "physical" is.




          Time is "different" in the non-physical, too. And it's been proven
          that even memories are unreliable...and false memories can indeed be
          "implanted" in people by therapists who may not even realize they're
          doing it to people.




          There are just too many other possibilities. Non-physical beings can
          take on different appearances just like we put on Halloween costumes.




          Ford Johnson does give a good explanation of one of many possibilities
          for these things, and I've also seen others. Seems to me I've read
          some excellent Ken Wilber stuff about this, things I want to explore
          more but haven't gotten to it.




          Don't you think that a *real* master, physical or non-physical,
          wouldn't have to stoop to plagiarism? That's ridiculous!! It's as
          laughable as the baloney the cult is "teaching" now, trying to
          downplay the *real* reasons why so many long-timers have dropped out
          over the years - that Twitch had to urgently use whoever was handy to
          "get the word out" in a very short time, so he just grabbed the
          nearest person & quickly turned them into HIs and they weren't really
          "ready" for it. Ha!!




          Just as only a certain percentage of the population can be hypnotized,
          only a certain percentage of people are able to "receive", I think,
          and "receivers" do it on different levels, sort of - also, there are
          some beliefs in various places that one (or many) can actually create
          "beings" who can also take on lives of their own. One place I've seen
          this mentioned is in connection with Tibetan Buddhism, in one of
          Alexandra David-Neel's books, which Twitch was familiar with. So...a
          possibility is that Rebizarre is literally a twitch-creation who
          actually now has a "life" which includes the ability to insert himself
          into people's "pasts", before Rebizarre himself actually existed. Do
          you know what I mean?




          What I still consider my "real" experiences, well...although e-stuff
          did (especially at first) seem to really be "The Answer", as time went
          on I felt more & more that my experiences didn't really "fit" - for
          many reasons. They were summed up more accurately by non-eck
          "mystics" - Rumi & other "mystic" poets, and for me, Christian mystics
          - especially Catholics like John of the Cross & too many to mention -
          except I had to "dump" a lot of the Christian imagery & symbolism they
          used to express themselves.




          Well...I don't feel like I'm communicating well here, but I hope
          you've gotten some of what I'm trying to express.




          I'm glad others have responded to you here! I personally appreciate
          your posting here, too - the issue of having current members post here
          for whatever reasons can be a bit tricky, and I have mixed feelings
          about it, but for some reason I "approved" your posts without a second
          thought. I'm not sure if I "felt" you were being honestly open &
          respectful, or if there was a definite difference in your post
          compared to other current members. But I'm just *really* happy,
          because it seems like what I've always hoped for here, that "both
          sides" could simply ask questions & "chat" about our own personal
          experiences, feelings, beliefs, whatever, so that others could simply
          read both sides & make up their own minds - however, this does *not*
          (IMO) mean I want to have a forum where the "good" points of e-kult
          are discussed. That's like subtle eckmissionary stuff. And although
          I do a lot of "eckbashing" it sort of goes with the "job" <gg>, but on
          a personal level I want current members to feel free to ask questions
          without have to worry about being personally insulted or anything. On
          the other hand, a current member can be asking questions and at the
          same time, inside themselves they already have the answers they
          *really* want, which will help them to continue their membership
          comfortably. If this is the way they're feeling, this is one of those
          things that perhaps former members just somehow pick up on and respond
          to unconsciously.




          You know, I think I oughtta quit before I get even *more* confused &
          confusing!!




          And I think I've realized that here in cyberspace, there is just no
          way to "goof off" for awhile and then go back and catch up! <gg>




          Well...I gotta go, I'm hoping I helped a little bit! And I hope you
          continue asking good questions - but oh horrors, I *do* hope you don't
          turn into what recently happened with two other posters here - it
          turned out they were actually current members with the cult "agenda"
          in mind, and they turned rude & abusive.




          On the other hand, if you decide to stay in and announce it here, I
          hope you won't get "abused" for it. My personal feeling is hey,
          you've made your own decision after thinking and asking questions -
          and it's neither good nor bad, it simply "is". I personally identify
          with a lot of the things you've said about asking questions within the
          eck "community", though. Funny, when I was in it, I just accepted it
          - but I could only "stifle" my questions for so long, and the
          party-line pseudo-answers just weren't working anymore.




          Hugs,




          Sharon
        • Sharon
          I just skimmed over the post I made yesterday, and wasn t surprised that I sort of missed writing what s sort of the whole point I wanted to make about
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 24, 2003
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            I just skimmed over the post I made yesterday, and wasn't surprised
            that I sort of missed writing what's sort of the whole point I wanted
            to make about "eckmaster sightings" ....




            The cult "teaches" how protection is needed from dream invasions by
            black magicians, etc., so doesn't it make sense that it's just as
            likely that "eckmasters" are actually "black magicians" and these
            "spiritual experiences" are actually psychic invasion?




            There are plenty of other examples where the cult accuses others of
            doing various things, to distract people from seeing that it's
            actually *eckankar* that's doing it!




            I frequently use the example of a "native" who's suddenly taken to
            "civilization" - seeing an airplane, they would naturally assume that
            the people on it are "gods".




            And right here on earth, we've got beautiful places like the Taj Mahal
            - right next door to horribly impoverished slums. It's all earth.
            Neither is more or less "spiritual" than the other. I think the
            non-physical worlds are the same way, and not at all those linear
            heirarchal "god worlds" portrayed in various "god world charts".




            So, I don't think we 21st-century humans are as "evolved" and smart as
            we like to think we are.




            Hugs,




            Sharon
          • Spirit Dancer
            Hey Ford posted my contribution from a.r.e. why I left Eckankar on his truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :) Thought
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 24, 2003
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              Hey Ford posted my contribution from a.r.e. "why I left Eckankar" on his truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :) Thought I'd mention, I went by Whitefeather ;-)

              ~Spirit Dancer~ Elizabeth



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            • Linda B
              ... truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :) Thought I d mention, I went by Whitefeather ;-) ... As well he should : ) It s
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 24, 2003
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                > Hey Ford posted my contribution from a.r.e. "why I left Eckankar" on his
                truthseeker web site message board, and it is exactly as I wrote it. :)
                Thought I'd mention, I went by Whitefeather ;-)
                >
                > ~Spirit Dancer~ Elizabeth

                As well he should : ) It's a thoughtful and relevant post. I said it
                before and I'll say it again - to me, the execkists' posts have been so much
                more sensible and logical than most anything offered up by Eckankar.

                I just received Ford's book today. It looks like there's a lot reading
                involved. I get the feeling I'll end up being more of a skimmer. I'll
                ferret out what looks interesting.

                Linda B
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