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General "Stuff"

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  • Sharon
    Okay, I feel there are a few things I should post about, relating to this forum. I ll probably end up rambling but that s me. First of all, the issue of my
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 30, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Okay, I feel there are a few things I should post about, relating to
      this forum. I'll probably end up "rambling" but that's me.




      First of all, the issue of my "banning" Nathan. Those familiar with
      him over the years at a.r.e. will probably understand more of where
      I'm coming from. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt,
      and put aside my personal dislike for him (which he EARNED), however,
      just because someone leaves the cult that doesn't mean they've
      suddenly become, in my opinion, "nice" etc. The same goes for cult
      members - just because they're a member doesn't mean I dislike them.




      Nathan's not exactly your run-of-the-mill eckist or ex-eckist. And
      another thing - often two different people can say *exactly* the same
      words, but where they're coming from, and what they're thinking and
      feeling, and the use of these words, well...it's two entirely
      different things. I try to look beyond the obvious, and put things
      into a larger context.




      Now, I know a lot of people find comparisons between eckstuff (or
      anti-eckstuff) and Nazis ridiculous, extreme, and even odious.
      Unfortunately, I feel a lot of it is very relevant. And I'm going to
      use this comparison for Nathan.




      There was a big different between your average German, and even a lot
      of card-carrying Nazis, and those who were tried and judged at
      Nuremburg. When it gets right down to it, let's just say I believe a
      leopard *can* change its spots, but it's still a leopard inside.




      It's my opinion that Nathan left the cult only because they came down
      on him for soliciting eckists for his "investment" schemes. It
      suited
      his own selfish purposes to rationalize leaving the cult, although I
      daresay this may have all been unconscious on his part. And even
      though I daresay it was the correct thing for MN to do, because as an
      exceptionally controlling & even arrogant HI, ESA, RESA, etc., he
      misused his position, and a lot of silly ecksheep might indeed tend
      to
      be influenced by his cult status. However, I basically think it's
      none of the cult's business - and I think they object to eckies
      selling to eckies because they want their cult members focused on
      recruiting new members for the cult, not for any great concern over
      "lowbies" being ripped off by the HIs, which has been going on
      probably since the cult started.




      Anyway, when Nathan was a cult bigwig who'd gotten personal thanks
      from MN for his "swordsman" work on the internet, he could indeed put
      on one of those phony eckluuuuuvmasks and it certainly seemed sincere
      - until I went to a.r.e., and was soon invited by him to join the
      "Group of Online Eckists", which I usually refer to as the
      EckGestapo.
      Publicly and privately, I saw the *other* side of Nathan - the one I
      feel was more truly him. And...it was one of the most offensive and
      disgusting things I've ever seen. And it wasn't just me. He
      viciously hurt many others in his "defense" of the cult - including
      one genuinely sincere (but deluded) eckist who I still consider a
      friend - although sadly, because of my "apostasy" this eckist isn't
      comfortable with the friendship anymore. This poor genuinely loving
      cult member only wanted to share, from his heart, what he thought the
      cult is about. Sadly, he was also honest in making public some
      issues
      which I *do* believe need to be addressed - and he was viciously put
      down for failing to keep that "cult mask" on for the public. This
      will probably follow him for his entire life in the cult. Maybe I
      should be happy that because of Nathan, there's going to be one
      wannabe cult missionary who's been stifled - but I'm not. Quite
      awhile ago, this eckist wrote and asked me never to mention his name
      on the internet again, because there would be repercussions from the
      Org. So...his name will not be mentioned, but I will always thing of
      him and his family with much love. Even though he's a deluded
      ecksheep, he's got a good heart. And I honor that, no matter what a
      person's beliefs.




      <giggle> Just had a funny thought - Nathan liked to consider himself
      a "Swordman of Sugmad" but I think "The Eichmann of ECK" would be
      more
      appropriate.




      He basically hasn't changed. His comment to "Harvey" was the exact
      same line he often used as a cult member. He had a choice there, you
      know. He could have addressed some of the things Linda B. had
      originally posted, which "Harvey" replied to by referring to one of
      the Gnat's a.r.e. posts, and if people didn't take the time to read
      what was going on there, they've got no business trying to form an
      opinion simply by what went on here. And although perhaps it seemed
      as if "Harvey" was doing the insulting, well...as I said above, it
      looks a bit different if you look at the bigger picture, and consider
      what you know of the people involved, and just generally try to put
      things in a bigger context.




      I don't think Nathan knows anything more about divine unconditional
      love than Twitch did. And you know, although I *do* know (and am
      capable of) divine unconditional love, I have come to realize that
      it's not necessarily a good thing. And you know, I just remembered -
      when I was an eckist I even posted that sometimes perhaps just
      refraining from hatred is okay, even though I was working on that
      divine unconditional love. I used to do my own "spiritual exercise"
      and practice by making myself love Jeffrey Dahmer. <ggg> Well...I
      no longer have divine unconditional love for everyone as a goal.
      It's
      stupid. Hatred is not a part of my nature, what I do is just keep
      things which perhaps *deserve* hatred out of my life & space, and
      "consciousness"....and in Nathan's case, out of my Yahoo group! <ggg>




      I feel Nathan is still the same haughty, arrogant, controlling,
      judgmental, obnoxious know-it-all that he was an as eckist. Perhaps
      some day I'll change my mind, but that's not really important. And
      I
      also feel his attitudes about speaking out against the cult are the
      same as they were when he was in the Gestapo - even though he "went
      public" with his leaving and said some "negative" things about the
      cult, basically he still seems to be giving out the message that
      there's something wrong and "less spirichul" about anyone who doesn't
      feel that they needed and/or "chose" time in the cult and therefore
      should be thankful for it, and keep their mouths shut and "move on".
      Sorry, but you don't need a lot of the shit that happens in life to
      learn!! He's still very clueless (or just still eckist) about a
      lot
      of things. It's sort of like abused wives - some of them, like
      eckists, need to convince themselves that they have in some way
      earned
      the beatings and keep believing the abuser luuuuuvs them - until
      perhaps they're almost killed, and then they wake up. Duh - I think
      we can agree that they're just plain stupid. And do you know, I
      don't
      think that's necessarily a judgment - just a common-sense
      observation,
      with no emotion about it one way or the other. Oh....this is another
      funny thing, but I wonder if Nathan has changed his mind about AIDS.
      He used to think there was no such thing - well, to each his own.
      Not
      really relevant.




      Hey, some people feel the same way about me. That's not a problem.
      To each his own.




      Anyway, I started this group for certain reasons which I've posted.
      That's what I try to keep in mind all the time, although there's
      certainly a lot of "crap" here - as much from me as from anyone else,
      probably - but I'm just learning. I certainly have different
      thoughts
      & opinions than many people who post here, but I wouldn't say I
      really
      have any feelings about it. I'll use the example of Anne's recent
      "Seth" quote post. Personally, I have no use for *any* of this
      "channeled from Masters" stuff - it's even less meaningful to me than
      greeting cards - which I *do* happen to be fond of reading. It
      doesn't bother me that she posts them, though - as long as it's
      reasonable. If it was a daily thing, I'd probably say something
      about
      it. Same with recipes and jokes. I *do* enjoy recipes and jokes,
      but
      if it was a daily thing & lots of it, I'd probably think it was
      getting a bit too much I'd say something about it. Let us all please
      remember that the major reason for this forum is *information*, as
      well as a safe & eckfree place for eckists to speak out and discuss
      things - but now, we've also got Execkankar which seems a bit more
      private so people might feel a bit more free, although it turned out
      that there were some eckists there after all. It's my personal
      belief that anything worth saying about the cult is worth saying in
      public, for the benefit of *everyone* - but not everyone feels that
      way. And that's okay too - heck, I've even told people privately to
      be good to themselves and NOT to go to a.r.e., although publicly I
      try
      to encourage everyone in general to please - speak out!!!! So
      many
      people have been helped by all the information on the internet - even
      eckists who left many years ago, even as far back as during Darwin's
      regime. At least one person has told me that until they got on the
      internet, they were the only person who ever left the cult!




      *****




      Well....I hope the above adequately expressed what I wanted to say -
      I'd rather just get it done & out of the way right now, it's been
      sitting in my *to do* folder long enough.


      I started this as an alternative to a.r.e., so former members could
      feel "safe". I wanted it to be easier to people to look at the
      "other side" without having to wade through a lot of cult propaganda
      posts, such as what happened at "eckankarhistory". Also, a lot of
      people may not be aware that these groups get "spammers" too - people
      who just pop in somewhere, and post a URL and nothing else. I never
      click on them when I see them elsewhere. They're probably the same
      "smut spam" we all get in our private email. Oh - I find all sorts
      of things in the "pending" file here, waiting for my approval!!
      Yep...offers to increast your bust and/or penis size by 3.5 inches
      overnight. Hey...I have to say this guys, but don't assume another
      3.5 inches is going to attract the ladies. They, like me, may run
      away even faster!!! <ggg> And I don't "approve" stuff promoting
      other "spiritual paths", especially when I check out the website &
      find they're selling something. Oh...another person I "banned"
      ages
      ago was RT233 - if you don't know who he is, check out
      EckankarHistory.






      So, I'd just like to ask people to be a bit tolerant when they don't
      agree with me - that's okay, because it's impossible for everyone to
      agree with everyone else, and that's what makes life interesting.
      But
      on the whole, I'm happy with this forum - except I'd rather totally
      not bother with it or *any* eckstuff anymore. But, I think we're all
      here on earth for a reason, and it's not just to bounce through
      happily unconcerned with how our lives affect the bigger picture. In
      other words, in one way or another I think maybe we should do
      whatever
      we can to make life a little better for everyone else, in our own
      small way. For me, this ranges from picking up other people's
      garbage, like the flyers left in grocery carts - to speaking out
      against the cult. Problem is, one person's "better" is another
      person's "worst" - and for eckists, the worst possible thing is
      having
      Klemp's evangelizing "mission" interfered with. I just like to see
      a
      little more balance and choices for people who do a websearch on
      "eckankar".




      Isn't it sort of funny - it just occurred to me that we here in
      America celebrate "Labor Day" by avoiding Labor!!! Horrors, I'm
      ruining the holiday spirit - but for me it's more fun to get the
      "work" done and then totally forget it and go play!!! <ggg>




      Have a good one, everyone!




      Hugs,




      Sharon
    • Anne Walton
      I can t see how it is up to you who deserves support and who does not. I don t want to see that bird should flying on this list. Makes it feel like the same
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 30, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        I can't see how it is up to you who deserves support and who does not. I don't want to see that bird should flying on this list. Makes it feel like the same old, same old. I doubt that Nathan will want to post. But I got to wonder Sharon, do you want to be held to your past, all of it? If you stand in judgment like this, how will other ex-members feel safe here?

        Anne
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Sharon
        To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:54 AM
        Subject: [eckankartruth] General "Stuff"




        Okay, I feel there are a few things I should post about, relating to
        this forum. I'll probably end up "rambling" but that's me.




        First of all, the issue of my "banning" Nathan. Those familiar with
        him over the years at a.r.e. will probably understand more of where
        I'm coming from. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt,
        and put aside my personal dislike for him (which he EARNED), however,
        just because someone leaves the cult that doesn't mean they've
        suddenly become, in my opinion, "nice" etc. The same goes for cult
        members - just because they're a member doesn't mean I dislike them.




        Nathan's not exactly your run-of-the-mill eckist or ex-eckist. And
        another thing - often two different people can say *exactly* the same
        words, but where they're coming from, and what they're thinking and
        feeling, and the use of these words, well...it's two entirely
        different things. I try to look beyond the obvious, and put things
        into a larger context.




        Now, I know a lot of people find comparisons between eckstuff (or
        anti-eckstuff) and Nazis ridiculous, extreme, and even odious.
        Unfortunately, I feel a lot of it is very relevant. And I'm going to
        use this comparison for Nathan.




        There was a big different between your average German, and even a lot
        of card-carrying Nazis, and those who were tried and judged at
        Nuremburg. When it gets right down to it, let's just say I believe a
        leopard *can* change its spots, but it's still a leopard inside.




        It's my opinion that Nathan left the cult only because they came down
        on him for soliciting eckists for his "investment" schemes. It
        suited
        his own selfish purposes to rationalize leaving the cult, although I
        daresay this may have all been unconscious on his part. And even
        though I daresay it was the correct thing for MN to do, because as an
        exceptionally controlling & even arrogant HI, ESA, RESA, etc., he
        misused his position, and a lot of silly ecksheep might indeed tend
        to
        be influenced by his cult status. However, I basically think it's
        none of the cult's business - and I think they object to eckies
        selling to eckies because they want their cult members focused on
        recruiting new members for the cult, not for any great concern over
        "lowbies" being ripped off by the HIs, which has been going on
        probably since the cult started.




        Anyway, when Nathan was a cult bigwig who'd gotten personal thanks
        from MN for his "swordsman" work on the internet, he could indeed put
        on one of those phony eckluuuuuvmasks and it certainly seemed sincere
        - until I went to a.r.e., and was soon invited by him to join the
        "Group of Online Eckists", which I usually refer to as the
        EckGestapo.
        Publicly and privately, I saw the *other* side of Nathan - the one I
        feel was more truly him. And...it was one of the most offensive and
        disgusting things I've ever seen. And it wasn't just me. He
        viciously hurt many others in his "defense" of the cult - including
        one genuinely sincere (but deluded) eckist who I still consider a
        friend - although sadly, because of my "apostasy" this eckist isn't
        comfortable with the friendship anymore. This poor genuinely loving
        cult member only wanted to share, from his heart, what he thought the
        cult is about. Sadly, he was also honest in making public some
        issues
        which I *do* believe need to be addressed - and he was viciously put
        down for failing to keep that "cult mask" on for the public. This
        will probably follow him for his entire life in the cult. Maybe I
        should be happy that because of Nathan, there's going to be one
        wannabe cult missionary who's been stifled - but I'm not. Quite
        awhile ago, this eckist wrote and asked me never to mention his name
        on the internet again, because there would be repercussions from the
        Org. So...his name will not be mentioned, but I will always thing of
        him and his family with much love. Even though he's a deluded
        ecksheep, he's got a good heart. And I honor that, no matter what a
        person's beliefs.




        <giggle> Just had a funny thought - Nathan liked to consider himself
        a "Swordman of Sugmad" but I think "The Eichmann of ECK" would be
        more
        appropriate.




        He basically hasn't changed. His comment to "Harvey" was the exact
        same line he often used as a cult member. He had a choice there, you
        know. He could have addressed some of the things Linda B. had
        originally posted, which "Harvey" replied to by referring to one of
        the Gnat's a.r.e. posts, and if people didn't take the time to read
        what was going on there, they've got no business trying to form an
        opinion simply by what went on here. And although perhaps it seemed
        as if "Harvey" was doing the insulting, well...as I said above, it
        looks a bit different if you look at the bigger picture, and consider
        what you know of the people involved, and just generally try to put
        things in a bigger context.




        I don't think Nathan knows anything more about divine unconditional
        love than Twitch did. And you know, although I *do* know (and am
        capable of) divine unconditional love, I have come to realize that
        it's not necessarily a good thing. And you know, I just remembered -
        when I was an eckist I even posted that sometimes perhaps just
        refraining from hatred is okay, even though I was working on that
        divine unconditional love. I used to do my own "spiritual exercise"
        and practice by making myself love Jeffrey Dahmer. <ggg> Well...I
        no longer have divine unconditional love for everyone as a goal.
        It's
        stupid. Hatred is not a part of my nature, what I do is just keep
        things which perhaps *deserve* hatred out of my life & space, and
        "consciousness"....and in Nathan's case, out of my Yahoo group! <ggg>




        I feel Nathan is still the same haughty, arrogant, controlling,
        judgmental, obnoxious know-it-all that he was an as eckist. Perhaps
        some day I'll change my mind, but that's not really important. And
        I
        also feel his attitudes about speaking out against the cult are the
        same as they were when he was in the Gestapo - even though he "went
        public" with his leaving and said some "negative" things about the
        cult, basically he still seems to be giving out the message that
        there's something wrong and "less spirichul" about anyone who doesn't
        feel that they needed and/or "chose" time in the cult and therefore
        should be thankful for it, and keep their mouths shut and "move on".
        Sorry, but you don't need a lot of the shit that happens in life to
        learn!! He's still very clueless (or just still eckist) about a
        lot
        of things. It's sort of like abused wives - some of them, like
        eckists, need to convince themselves that they have in some way
        earned
        the beatings and keep believing the abuser luuuuuvs them - until
        perhaps they're almost killed, and then they wake up. Duh - I think
        we can agree that they're just plain stupid. And do you know, I
        don't
        think that's necessarily a judgment - just a common-sense
        observation,
        with no emotion about it one way or the other. Oh....this is another
        funny thing, but I wonder if Nathan has changed his mind about AIDS.
        He used to think there was no such thing - well, to each his own.
        Not
        really relevant.




        Hey, some people feel the same way about me. That's not a problem.
        To each his own.




        Anyway, I started this group for certain reasons which I've posted.
        That's what I try to keep in mind all the time, although there's
        certainly a lot of "crap" here - as much from me as from anyone else,
        probably - but I'm just learning. I certainly have different
        thoughts
        & opinions than many people who post here, but I wouldn't say I
        really
        have any feelings about it. I'll use the example of Anne's recent
        "Seth" quote post. Personally, I have no use for *any* of this
        "channeled from Masters" stuff - it's even less meaningful to me than
        greeting cards - which I *do* happen to be fond of reading. It
        doesn't bother me that she posts them, though - as long as it's
        reasonable. If it was a daily thing, I'd probably say something
        about
        it. Same with recipes and jokes. I *do* enjoy recipes and jokes,
        but
        if it was a daily thing & lots of it, I'd probably think it was
        getting a bit too much I'd say something about it. Let us all please
        remember that the major reason for this forum is *information*, as
        well as a safe & eckfree place for eckists to speak out and discuss
        things - but now, we've also got Execkankar which seems a bit more
        private so people might feel a bit more free, although it turned out
        that there were some eckists there after all. It's my personal
        belief that anything worth saying about the cult is worth saying in
        public, for the benefit of *everyone* - but not everyone feels that
        way. And that's okay too - heck, I've even told people privately to
        be good to themselves and NOT to go to a.r.e., although publicly I
        try
        to encourage everyone in general to please - speak out!!!! So
        many
        people have been helped by all the information on the internet - even
        eckists who left many years ago, even as far back as during Darwin's
        regime. At least one person has told me that until they got on the
        internet, they were the only person who ever left the cult!




        *****




        Well....I hope the above adequately expressed what I wanted to say -
        I'd rather just get it done & out of the way right now, it's been
        sitting in my *to do* folder long enough.


        I started this as an alternative to a.r.e., so former members could
        feel "safe". I wanted it to be easier to people to look at the
        "other side" without having to wade through a lot of cult propaganda
        posts, such as what happened at "eckankarhistory". Also, a lot of
        people may not be aware that these groups get "spammers" too - people
        who just pop in somewhere, and post a URL and nothing else. I never
        click on them when I see them elsewhere. They're probably the same
        "smut spam" we all get in our private email. Oh - I find all sorts
        of things in the "pending" file here, waiting for my approval!!
        Yep...offers to increast your bust and/or penis size by 3.5 inches
        overnight. Hey...I have to say this guys, but don't assume another
        3.5 inches is going to attract the ladies. They, like me, may run
        away even faster!!! <ggg> And I don't "approve" stuff promoting
        other "spiritual paths", especially when I check out the website &
        find they're selling something. Oh...another person I "banned"
        ages
        ago was RT233 - if you don't know who he is, check out
        EckankarHistory.






        So, I'd just like to ask people to be a bit tolerant when they don't
        agree with me - that's okay, because it's impossible for everyone to
        agree with everyone else, and that's what makes life interesting.
        But
        on the whole, I'm happy with this forum - except I'd rather totally
        not bother with it or *any* eckstuff anymore. But, I think we're all
        here on earth for a reason, and it's not just to bounce through
        happily unconcerned with how our lives affect the bigger picture. In
        other words, in one way or another I think maybe we should do
        whatever
        we can to make life a little better for everyone else, in our own
        small way. For me, this ranges from picking up other people's
        garbage, like the flyers left in grocery carts - to speaking out
        against the cult. Problem is, one person's "better" is another
        person's "worst" - and for eckists, the worst possible thing is
        having
        Klemp's evangelizing "mission" interfered with. I just like to see
        a
        little more balance and choices for people who do a websearch on
        "eckankar".




        Isn't it sort of funny - it just occurred to me that we here in
        America celebrate "Labor Day" by avoiding Labor!!! Horrors, I'm
        ruining the holiday spirit - but for me it's more fun to get the
        "work" done and then totally forget it and go play!!! <ggg>




        Have a good one, everyone!




        Hugs,




        Sharon


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Linda B
        ... Hi, Linda B here. Being a fan of the History and History International Channels, I m standing by my statement of Eckankar, and H.I.s, using Nazi-like
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 30, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          > Now, I know a lot of people find comparisons between eckstuff (or
          > anti-eckstuff) and Nazis ridiculous, extreme, and even odious.
          > Unfortunately, I feel a lot of it is very relevant. And I'm going to
          > use this comparison for Nathan.

          Hi, Linda B here. Being a fan of the History and History International
          Channels, I'm standing by my statement of Eckankar, and H.I.s, using
          Nazi-like tactics. I've watched all the Hitler-related shows; and while I
          don't believe that Eckankar has genocide on the agenda, there are
          diffenately other similar methods used. History repeats itself again, and
          again, and again...... Or, if you like, "the more things change, the more
          they stay the same". Same tactics, different methods. Here's a quote
          straight from Hitler. "What luck for the rulers that men do not think".
          While I'm at it, here's one straight from Harold. "Eckankar is for the
          simple and pure of heart, for the truth does not make a whole lot of sense
          to the intellectuals of society". Hmmmm.

          I really missed what was going on as related to your next paragraph. I'm
          assuming that Nathan took offense to my Nazi reference? Oh well. I'm just
          so fed up with religions, and how irrational they make people become. Just
          look around, it's a world gone mad. Always has been, and probably always
          will be - with all this "my God's better than your God" crap.

          > He basically hasn't changed. His comment to "Harvey" was the exact
          > same line he often used as a cult member. He had a choice there, you
          > know. He could have addressed some of the things Linda B. had
          > originally posted, which "Harvey" replied to by referring to one of
          > the Gnat's a.r.e. posts, and if people didn't take the time to read
          > what was going on there, they've got no business trying to form an
          > opinion simply by what went on here. And although perhaps it seemed
          > as if "Harvey" was doing the insulting, well...as I said above, it
          > looks a bit different if you look at the bigger picture, and consider
          > what you know of the people involved, and just generally try to put
          > things in a bigger context.
          >
        • Anne Walton
          I can t see how it is up to you who deserves support and who does not. I don t want to see that bird should flying on this list. Makes it feel like the same
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 30, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            I can't see how it is up to you who deserves support and who does not. I don't want to see that bird should flying on this list. Makes it feel like the same old, same old. I doubt that Nathan will want to post. But I got to wonder Sharon, do you want to be held to your past, all of it? If you stand in judgment like this, how will other ex-members feel safe here?

            Anne
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Sharon
            To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:54 AM
            Subject: [eckankartruth] General "Stuff"




            Okay, I feel there are a few things I should post about, relating to
            this forum. I'll probably end up "rambling" but that's me.




            First of all, the issue of my "banning" Nathan. Those familiar with
            him over the years at a.r.e. will probably understand more of where
            I'm coming from. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt,
            and put aside my personal dislike for him (which he EARNED), however,
            just because someone leaves the cult that doesn't mean they've
            suddenly become, in my opinion, "nice" etc. The same goes for cult
            members - just because they're a member doesn't mean I dislike them.




            Nathan's not exactly your run-of-the-mill eckist or ex-eckist. And
            another thing - often two different people can say *exactly* the same
            words, but where they're coming from, and what they're thinking and
            feeling, and the use of these words, well...it's two entirely
            different things. I try to look beyond the obvious, and put things
            into a larger context.




            Now, I know a lot of people find comparisons between eckstuff (or
            anti-eckstuff) and Nazis ridiculous, extreme, and even odious.
            Unfortunately, I feel a lot of it is very relevant. And I'm going to
            use this comparison for Nathan.




            There was a big different between your average German, and even a lot
            of card-carrying Nazis, and those who were tried and judged at
            Nuremburg. When it gets right down to it, let's just say I believe a
            leopard *can* change its spots, but it's still a leopard inside.




            It's my opinion that Nathan left the cult only because they came down
            on him for soliciting eckists for his "investment" schemes. It
            suited
            his own selfish purposes to rationalize leaving the cult, although I
            daresay this may have all been unconscious on his part. And even
            though I daresay it was the correct thing for MN to do, because as an
            exceptionally controlling & even arrogant HI, ESA, RESA, etc., he
            misused his position, and a lot of silly ecksheep might indeed tend
            to
            be influenced by his cult status. However, I basically think it's
            none of the cult's business - and I think they object to eckies
            selling to eckies because they want their cult members focused on
            recruiting new members for the cult, not for any great concern over
            "lowbies" being ripped off by the HIs, which has been going on
            probably since the cult started.




            Anyway, when Nathan was a cult bigwig who'd gotten personal thanks
            from MN for his "swordsman" work on the internet, he could indeed put
            on one of those phony eckluuuuuvmasks and it certainly seemed sincere
            - until I went to a.r.e., and was soon invited by him to join the
            "Group of Online Eckists", which I usually refer to as the
            EckGestapo.
            Publicly and privately, I saw the *other* side of Nathan - the one I
            feel was more truly him. And...it was one of the most offensive and
            disgusting things I've ever seen. And it wasn't just me. He
            viciously hurt many others in his "defense" of the cult - including
            one genuinely sincere (but deluded) eckist who I still consider a
            friend - although sadly, because of my "apostasy" this eckist isn't
            comfortable with the friendship anymore. This poor genuinely loving
            cult member only wanted to share, from his heart, what he thought the
            cult is about. Sadly, he was also honest in making public some
            issues
            which I *do* believe need to be addressed - and he was viciously put
            down for failing to keep that "cult mask" on for the public. This
            will probably follow him for his entire life in the cult. Maybe I
            should be happy that because of Nathan, there's going to be one
            wannabe cult missionary who's been stifled - but I'm not. Quite
            awhile ago, this eckist wrote and asked me never to mention his name
            on the internet again, because there would be repercussions from the
            Org. So...his name will not be mentioned, but I will always thing of
            him and his family with much love. Even though he's a deluded
            ecksheep, he's got a good heart. And I honor that, no matter what a
            person's beliefs.




            <giggle> Just had a funny thought - Nathan liked to consider himself
            a "Swordman of Sugmad" but I think "The Eichmann of ECK" would be
            more
            appropriate.




            He basically hasn't changed. His comment to "Harvey" was the exact
            same line he often used as a cult member. He had a choice there, you
            know. He could have addressed some of the things Linda B. had
            originally posted, which "Harvey" replied to by referring to one of
            the Gnat's a.r.e. posts, and if people didn't take the time to read
            what was going on there, they've got no business trying to form an
            opinion simply by what went on here. And although perhaps it seemed
            as if "Harvey" was doing the insulting, well...as I said above, it
            looks a bit different if you look at the bigger picture, and consider
            what you know of the people involved, and just generally try to put
            things in a bigger context.




            I don't think Nathan knows anything more about divine unconditional
            love than Twitch did. And you know, although I *do* know (and am
            capable of) divine unconditional love, I have come to realize that
            it's not necessarily a good thing. And you know, I just remembered -
            when I was an eckist I even posted that sometimes perhaps just
            refraining from hatred is okay, even though I was working on that
            divine unconditional love. I used to do my own "spiritual exercise"
            and practice by making myself love Jeffrey Dahmer. <ggg> Well...I
            no longer have divine unconditional love for everyone as a goal.
            It's
            stupid. Hatred is not a part of my nature, what I do is just keep
            things which perhaps *deserve* hatred out of my life & space, and
            "consciousness"....and in Nathan's case, out of my Yahoo group! <ggg>




            I feel Nathan is still the same haughty, arrogant, controlling,
            judgmental, obnoxious know-it-all that he was an as eckist. Perhaps
            some day I'll change my mind, but that's not really important. And
            I
            also feel his attitudes about speaking out against the cult are the
            same as they were when he was in the Gestapo - even though he "went
            public" with his leaving and said some "negative" things about the
            cult, basically he still seems to be giving out the message that
            there's something wrong and "less spirichul" about anyone who doesn't
            feel that they needed and/or "chose" time in the cult and therefore
            should be thankful for it, and keep their mouths shut and "move on".
            Sorry, but you don't need a lot of the shit that happens in life to
            learn!! He's still very clueless (or just still eckist) about a
            lot
            of things. It's sort of like abused wives - some of them, like
            eckists, need to convince themselves that they have in some way
            earned
            the beatings and keep believing the abuser luuuuuvs them - until
            perhaps they're almost killed, and then they wake up. Duh - I think
            we can agree that they're just plain stupid. And do you know, I
            don't
            think that's necessarily a judgment - just a common-sense
            observation,
            with no emotion about it one way or the other. Oh....this is another
            funny thing, but I wonder if Nathan has changed his mind about AIDS.
            He used to think there was no such thing - well, to each his own.
            Not
            really relevant.




            Hey, some people feel the same way about me. That's not a problem.
            To each his own.




            Anyway, I started this group for certain reasons which I've posted.
            That's what I try to keep in mind all the time, although there's
            certainly a lot of "crap" here - as much from me as from anyone else,
            probably - but I'm just learning. I certainly have different
            thoughts
            & opinions than many people who post here, but I wouldn't say I
            really
            have any feelings about it. I'll use the example of Anne's recent
            "Seth" quote post. Personally, I have no use for *any* of this
            "channeled from Masters" stuff - it's even less meaningful to me than
            greeting cards - which I *do* happen to be fond of reading. It
            doesn't bother me that she posts them, though - as long as it's
            reasonable. If it was a daily thing, I'd probably say something
            about
            it. Same with recipes and jokes. I *do* enjoy recipes and jokes,
            but
            if it was a daily thing & lots of it, I'd probably think it was
            getting a bit too much I'd say something about it. Let us all please
            remember that the major reason for this forum is *information*, as
            well as a safe & eckfree place for eckists to speak out and discuss
            things - but now, we've also got Execkankar which seems a bit more
            private so people might feel a bit more free, although it turned out
            that there were some eckists there after all. It's my personal
            belief that anything worth saying about the cult is worth saying in
            public, for the benefit of *everyone* - but not everyone feels that
            way. And that's okay too - heck, I've even told people privately to
            be good to themselves and NOT to go to a.r.e., although publicly I
            try
            to encourage everyone in general to please - speak out!!!! So
            many
            people have been helped by all the information on the internet - even
            eckists who left many years ago, even as far back as during Darwin's
            regime. At least one person has told me that until they got on the
            internet, they were the only person who ever left the cult!




            *****




            Well....I hope the above adequately expressed what I wanted to say -
            I'd rather just get it done & out of the way right now, it's been
            sitting in my *to do* folder long enough.


            I started this as an alternative to a.r.e., so former members could
            feel "safe". I wanted it to be easier to people to look at the
            "other side" without having to wade through a lot of cult propaganda
            posts, such as what happened at "eckankarhistory". Also, a lot of
            people may not be aware that these groups get "spammers" too - people
            who just pop in somewhere, and post a URL and nothing else. I never
            click on them when I see them elsewhere. They're probably the same
            "smut spam" we all get in our private email. Oh - I find all sorts
            of things in the "pending" file here, waiting for my approval!!
            Yep...offers to increast your bust and/or penis size by 3.5 inches
            overnight. Hey...I have to say this guys, but don't assume another
            3.5 inches is going to attract the ladies. They, like me, may run
            away even faster!!! <ggg> And I don't "approve" stuff promoting
            other "spiritual paths", especially when I check out the website &
            find they're selling something. Oh...another person I "banned"
            ages
            ago was RT233 - if you don't know who he is, check out
            EckankarHistory.






            So, I'd just like to ask people to be a bit tolerant when they don't
            agree with me - that's okay, because it's impossible for everyone to
            agree with everyone else, and that's what makes life interesting.
            But
            on the whole, I'm happy with this forum - except I'd rather totally
            not bother with it or *any* eckstuff anymore. But, I think we're all
            here on earth for a reason, and it's not just to bounce through
            happily unconcerned with how our lives affect the bigger picture. In
            other words, in one way or another I think maybe we should do
            whatever
            we can to make life a little better for everyone else, in our own
            small way. For me, this ranges from picking up other people's
            garbage, like the flyers left in grocery carts - to speaking out
            against the cult. Problem is, one person's "better" is another
            person's "worst" - and for eckists, the worst possible thing is
            having
            Klemp's evangelizing "mission" interfered with. I just like to see
            a
            little more balance and choices for people who do a websearch on
            "eckankar".




            Isn't it sort of funny - it just occurred to me that we here in
            America celebrate "Labor Day" by avoiding Labor!!! Horrors, I'm
            ruining the holiday spirit - but for me it's more fun to get the
            "work" done and then totally forget it and go play!!! <ggg>




            Have a good one, everyone!




            Hugs,




            Sharon


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sharon
            ... not. It wasn t about support. It was about posting on this forum. Nathan made it quite clear at a.r.e. that he s not looking for support . ... feel like
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 3, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Walton" <AnneWalton@c...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I can't see how it is up to you who deserves support and who does
              not.

              It wasn't about support. It was about posting on this forum. Nathan
              made it quite clear at a.r.e. that he's not looking for "support".

              > I don't want to see that bird should flying on this list. Makes it
              feel like the same old, same old.

              Yep - so I banned that bird because it was obvious that even though
              the label is changed, he's still the same old, same old!


              >I doubt that Nathan will want to post.

              Unfortunately, he did. He could have chosen to discuss some of the
              points Linda made, which sort of related to comments at a.r.e., about
              issues on leaving when you've been in the cult for a long time, but he
              didn't. Some former members speak out when they leave, and some
              don't. Some former members are happy and grateful for their cult
              experience, and others realize that you don't necessarily have to
              experience blindness to appreciate being able to see, and they're just
              happy to be awake and free again.

              Some former members choose to believe the cultic dogma that on some
              great cosmic "soul" level, they "chose" to join the cult because they
              needed the experience, and others realize that they were conned.

              You know, it seems to me that maybe we have a tendency to look at
              situations like this the wrong way. Doesn't "personal responsibility"
              apply to con artists? Why would someone choose to be a lying scumbag?
              Especially someone who's supposedly had so many lives where they
              learned so much they "earned" LEMhood in this lifetime?

              Okay, so Twitch not only had to pay Gail back the $300 he borrowed
              from her when she was a student librarian - he had to earn enough
              money to keep her happy because she was tired of supporting them! I
              realize the 10 Commandments aren't PC nowadays, but I guess I'm
              old-fashioned. Twich lied, and he stole, among other things.


              > But I got to wonder Sharon, do you want to be held to your past, all
              of it?

              ?????? I really don't understand what you mean here. Our pasts are
              part of our present, aren't they?

              I made a decision based on the *present*.

              Okay - let's use something which is actually sort of the same thing.
              You've got a Catholic priest who's been messing with the altar boys.
              He gets caught - of course, it's sort of harder to catch a pedophile
              priest because child molesting isn't exactly like posting on a
              newsgroup, but you've got the history in both places. The priest gets
              transferred to a new parish with a clean slate. This may have
              happened several times, but...it's not right to hold a child molesting
              priest to his past, is it? So, at the latest parish maybe there are a
              few congregation members who moved from one of his old parishes - and
              by golly are they ever surprised when he's up there right on the altar
              with his hands down one of the altar boy's pants!! (Or up their robe)

              But this time - he says it's "different" or something. And some of
              the parish members say yeah, this time although it *looks* like he's
              still molesting because he's got his hand where it shouldn't be, it's
              really *not* - it's just innocent fondling, and just because in his
              previous parishes the fondling led to anal rape it doesn't mean he'll
              do it again.

              I disagree.

              >If you stand in judgment like this, how will other ex-members feel
              safe here?
              >

              Well...I suppose they won't. They'll have to go to a.r.e. (or
              eckankarhistory) where everyone can post whatever they like. Or, they
              can start a forum where anything goes, and invite Nathan to join!

              Anyway, this is already sort of "old" but I *do* like things to be
              sort of clear about how this forum operates so there are no surprises.

              You know, this sort of reminds me of something I wondered about in
              e-kult. Supposedly we all create our own realities or whatever - but
              I wondered, what if someone is creating a reality that includes *me*,
              but it's not something I want to be a part of?

              Darn, there was something else I wanted to mention, but now I've
              forgotten. Isn't that annoying? I'll probably remember it again when
              I'm fishing or something.

              Well...I guess the subject of Nathan is over. Except I've been
              laughing a bit. Nathan Himself posted at a.r.e. that there are things
              in his situation he chooses not to reveal, but the whole story was
              getting curiouser & curiouser, so it's not surprising that he decided
              to sign off there...

              Evidently other eckies were complaining about him to MN, and although
              evidently he tried to explain himself MN decided not to listen. I
              wonder if his wife was one of the people complaining? I believe the
              wife was an HI, too, wasn't she? I'd heard awhile back that she'd
              tossed him out, but I was thinking that he'd picked up an
              impressionable young newbie at a seminar. I was wrong on that one -
              the new girlfriend is another HI!! From what I saw of her at a.r.e.,
              she seems like a really nice person who experienced some really shitty
              typical crap from MN.

              Gawd, I can see the eckies smirking here, all smug in their belief
              that because I'm gossiping, my car's muffler is going to fall off. It
              won't. Unlike Klemp, I take care of my car. In fact, I just bought
              it new spark plugs & plug wires. I should've done it a long time ago
              - I've had my beloved car for 3.5 years, it had roughly 175,000 miles
              on it but it ran perfectly & beautifully until maybe a year ago, when
              it started getting a bit fussy about starting quickly in the rain.
              You know, as an eckist I might have thought okay - that must mean I'm
              not doing the spex or something. <gg> Actually, I wouldn't have
              because I know a little bit about cars. Well...it's got 209,000 miles
              on it now - I know how it felt, because I've got quite a bit of
              mileage & don't start up as quickly on rainy mornings either.

              Anyway, Anne - I *do* wish Nathan the best....from a distance. I
              suspect he's going to be just as self-satisfied in his future as he's
              been about his past, and is about his present - I see much success for
              him as a biggie in Ford Johnson's Org!! You know, I was wondering as
              I read his websites, since they're gonna have all sorts of things
              going on, and Ford surely won't be able to speak personally
              everywhere, so he needs trained teachers, etc....oh, well...anyway, as
              I read Nathan's a.r.e. stuff the ExEckVideo flashed some
              forked-tongue-wisdom ... remember how in the cult we were trained to
              read the Shariyat and then contemplate & take it to the "inner"? <gg>

              Hey...this is enough, especially considering it's already "old".
              Cyberspace moves quickly, doesn't it?

              Sharon
            • Anne Walton
              Your judgment is divisive, Sharon. Comparing Nathan to a molester is an inaccurate analogy. It s the last thing we need for folks wanting a safe haven. I see
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 3, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Your judgment is divisive, Sharon.
                Comparing Nathan to a molester is an inaccurate analogy.
                It's the last thing we need for folks wanting a safe haven.

                I see you have defined it for yourself in a way that works for you.
                I don't see how that kind of control is any different than what
                folks were wanting to leave behind.

                Anne
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sharon
                To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 7:57 AM
                Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: General "Stuff"


                --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Walton" <AnneWalton@c...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I can't see how it is up to you who deserves support and who does
                not.

                It wasn't about support. It was about posting on this forum. Nathan
                made it quite clear at a.r.e. that he's not looking for "support".

                > I don't want to see that bird should flying on this list. Makes it
                feel like the same old, same old.

                Yep - so I banned that bird because it was obvious that even though
                the label is changed, he's still the same old, same old!


                >I doubt that Nathan will want to post.

                Unfortunately, he did. He could have chosen to discuss some of the
                points Linda made, which sort of related to comments at a.r.e., about
                issues on leaving when you've been in the cult for a long time, but he
                didn't. Some former members speak out when they leave, and some
                don't. Some former members are happy and grateful for their cult
                experience, and others realize that you don't necessarily have to
                experience blindness to appreciate being able to see, and they're just
                happy to be awake and free again.

                Some former members choose to believe the cultic dogma that on some
                great cosmic "soul" level, they "chose" to join the cult because they
                needed the experience, and others realize that they were conned.

                You know, it seems to me that maybe we have a tendency to look at
                situations like this the wrong way. Doesn't "personal responsibility"
                apply to con artists? Why would someone choose to be a lying scumbag?
                Especially someone who's supposedly had so many lives where they
                learned so much they "earned" LEMhood in this lifetime?

                Okay, so Twitch not only had to pay Gail back the $300 he borrowed
                from her when she was a student librarian - he had to earn enough
                money to keep her happy because she was tired of supporting them! I
                realize the 10 Commandments aren't PC nowadays, but I guess I'm
                old-fashioned. Twich lied, and he stole, among other things.


                > But I got to wonder Sharon, do you want to be held to your past, all
                of it?

                ?????? I really don't understand what you mean here. Our pasts are
                part of our present, aren't they?

                I made a decision based on the *present*.

                Okay - let's use something which is actually sort of the same thing.
                You've got a Catholic priest who's been messing with the altar boys.
                He gets caught - of course, it's sort of harder to catch a pedophile
                priest because child molesting isn't exactly like posting on a
                newsgroup, but you've got the history in both places. The priest gets
                transferred to a new parish with a clean slate. This may have
                happened several times, but...it's not right to hold a child molesting
                priest to his past, is it? So, at the latest parish maybe there are a
                few congregation members who moved from one of his old parishes - and
                by golly are they ever surprised when he's up there right on the altar
                with his hands down one of the altar boy's pants!! (Or up their robe)

                But this time - he says it's "different" or something. And some of
                the parish members say yeah, this time although it *looks* like he's
                still molesting because he's got his hand where it shouldn't be, it's
                really *not* - it's just innocent fondling, and just because in his
                previous parishes the fondling led to anal rape it doesn't mean he'll
                do it again.

                I disagree.

                >If you stand in judgment like this, how will other ex-members feel
                safe here?
                >

                Well...I suppose they won't. They'll have to go to a.r.e. (or
                eckankarhistory) where everyone can post whatever they like. Or, they
                can start a forum where anything goes, and invite Nathan to join!

                Anyway, this is already sort of "old" but I *do* like things to be
                sort of clear about how this forum operates so there are no surprises.

                You know, this sort of reminds me of something I wondered about in
                e-kult. Supposedly we all create our own realities or whatever - but
                I wondered, what if someone is creating a reality that includes *me*,
                but it's not something I want to be a part of?

                Darn, there was something else I wanted to mention, but now I've
                forgotten. Isn't that annoying? I'll probably remember it again when
                I'm fishing or something.

                Well...I guess the subject of Nathan is over. Except I've been
                laughing a bit. Nathan Himself posted at a.r.e. that there are things
                in his situation he chooses not to reveal, but the whole story was
                getting curiouser & curiouser, so it's not surprising that he decided
                to sign off there...

                Evidently other eckies were complaining about him to MN, and although
                evidently he tried to explain himself MN decided not to listen. I
                wonder if his wife was one of the people complaining? I believe the
                wife was an HI, too, wasn't she? I'd heard awhile back that she'd
                tossed him out, but I was thinking that he'd picked up an
                impressionable young newbie at a seminar. I was wrong on that one -
                the new girlfriend is another HI!! From what I saw of her at a.r.e.,
                she seems like a really nice person who experienced some really shitty
                typical crap from MN.

                Gawd, I can see the eckies smirking here, all smug in their belief
                that because I'm gossiping, my car's muffler is going to fall off. It
                won't. Unlike Klemp, I take care of my car. In fact, I just bought
                it new spark plugs & plug wires. I should've done it a long time ago
                - I've had my beloved car for 3.5 years, it had roughly 175,000 miles
                on it but it ran perfectly & beautifully until maybe a year ago, when
                it started getting a bit fussy about starting quickly in the rain.
                You know, as an eckist I might have thought okay - that must mean I'm
                not doing the spex or something. <gg> Actually, I wouldn't have
                because I know a little bit about cars. Well...it's got 209,000 miles
                on it now - I know how it felt, because I've got quite a bit of
                mileage & don't start up as quickly on rainy mornings either.

                Anyway, Anne - I *do* wish Nathan the best....from a distance. I
                suspect he's going to be just as self-satisfied in his future as he's
                been about his past, and is about his present - I see much success for
                him as a biggie in Ford Johnson's Org!! You know, I was wondering as
                I read his websites, since they're gonna have all sorts of things
                going on, and Ford surely won't be able to speak personally
                everywhere, so he needs trained teachers, etc....oh, well...anyway, as
                I read Nathan's a.r.e. stuff the ExEckVideo flashed some
                forked-tongue-wisdom ... remember how in the cult we were trained to
                read the Shariyat and then contemplate & take it to the "inner"? <gg>

                Hey...this is enough, especially considering it's already "old".
                Cyberspace moves quickly, doesn't it?

                Sharon

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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