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the Sound

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  • blatherings@hotmail.com
    What are people s views on the Sound current? My first experience with inner sounds (that I remember, as an adult) was in my 20 s, after I learned
    Message 1 of 22 , May 12, 2001
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      What are people's views on the Sound current?

      My first experience with inner sounds (that I remember, as an adult)
      was in my 20's, after I learned Trancendental Meditation. During a
      very deep meditation (about two weeks after I learned the technique)
      I heard exquisitly beautiful orchestral music, in my head, in
      stereo....and I could "make" it go wherever I wanted. Since I'm a
      trained classical musician and composer, that context makes sense. I
      first heard of the "sound current" 20 years after that, when I
      joined Eckankar. After joining, I focused in again on that kind of
      experience, and in my first six months I had many Sound experiences
      (the capital S is to designate what kind of sound I'm referring to,
      the inner sound) including most of the ones that are in the Eck chart
      of the planes. Including violins, clarinets, tinkling bells, ocean
      surf, and usually a full orchestra, often with a cello solo.
      I've always thorougly enjoyed these experiences with Sound, and I
      find that if I concentrate for a few days, I can bring one about,
      just by force of intent.
      What insights do you people have about Sound experiences? Obviously I
      didn't need Eckankar to have the inner sound experience. Lately what
      I hear in meditation sounds a whole lot like crickets. I liked the
      orchestra better!!
      Love,
      Bea
    • Pharmakon11@earthlink.net
      Hi Bea, I m glad you brought up this subject. It s close to my heart, and one that is apparently little more than a superficial afterthought for most
      Message 2 of 22 , May 13, 2001
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        Hi Bea,

        I'm glad you brought up this subject. It's close to my heart, and
        one that is apparently little more than a superficial afterthought
        for most eckankarists. I've noticed repeatedly over many years how
        in eckankar, the mathematical exactitude of so called "karma" and the
        interminable "learning of lessons" is interminably and habitually
        invoked as the means of spiritual unfoldment. This is the same
        religion that makes outrageous and unsupportable claims of being
        (sound of trumpets now!)...BEYOND THE MIND! ...And the highest of
        all paths to boot! The reason for this is that not one of all the
        exalted initiates of eck seems to have the slightest idea how the
        sound current actually fits into the picture--what with so much karma
        and lesson learning to worry about!

        The dark side of the same dilemma is that if the sound current were
        actually to supercede "karma" and all that tedious "lesson learning"
        they keep droning on about, you'd have far less leverage or
        psychological control over other people. You see, it's easier to
        bully people into believing certain finite articles of faith as a
        primary condition of spiritual transcendence. It's also far easier
        and convenient to be able to cajole and coerce people into behaving
        along certain rigid lines by suggesting there is a known curriculum
        of karmic lessons to be learned as a precondition of higher states of
        consciousness.

        An actual study of the lives of history's greatest Gnostics bears out
        a far different variety of preconditions for spiritual
        consciousness. (P.T. Barnum and Elvis notwithstanding.)

        Oh yeah, and then there's this other thing they sometimes mention
        called "love". But that's dangerous to really go into if you want to
        keep your power centralized, and your message sufficiently ambiguous.

        Bea, similar to you, for many years I had those experiences of the
        Spiritual Current as well, the various sounds of the planes, entire
        symphonies, as you describe, often came to me as I awoke in the
        mornings. The constant vibratory sound of a deep electric hum with
        undertones and overtones of singing sweetness and bells.

        I too practiced TM for two years before coming into eckankar. Two
        months after beginning TM I had an intense, overwhelming experience
        of the light and sound that left my inner senses quite a bit wide
        open--including the ability to see a finer spectrum of light and
        color around the body and other psychic sensibilities. The effort to
        understand these experiences actually intensified my search for
        answers and led me to eckankar.

        Eckankar not only spoke of the sound and light, it provided soul
        travel techniques which enabled me to travel consciously out of the
        body, and expand my sense of my own spiritual being. What became
        apparent early on though, was that few in eckankar had any actual
        knowledge of these things. Certainly a percentage of eckankarists
        have these experiences, but understanding, and the capacity to share
        knowledge about this is limited to the rote repetition of things
        spoken by others and read in the eck literature. I was around in
        eckankar long enough to note this repeatedly. Eckankar has no actual
        teaching of light and sound. I defy anyone to prove otherwise.

        I remember once, Harold Klemp taking questions from the audience. A
        man asked sincerely if he would speak for a few minutes about the
        sound current. I was confused when Harold began by stumbling over
        his words, seemingly grasping for something masterly to say. What he
        finally was able to come up with, was two sentences from the book
        Stranger by the River. I remember wondering why the head of the
        order of masters of the sound current wouldn't or couldn't give us
        any more than that.

        While I was RESA, I repeatedly urged class leaders to emphasize the
        light and sound as the operable principle of spiritual unfoldment on
        the path of eck. I was sick of hearing that simplistic Newtonian tit-
        for-tat karma thing being used as an excuse for everything that
        happens to people. I am not exaggerating when I say I cannot recall
        speaking with one person in eckankar who even knew how they might
        begin to do this. I frequently thought I must be on a path all by
        myself--and in fact I was--which is why I was ultimately ostracized
        by the thugs who control things at the moment.

        This was at the time that the latest marketing incarnation of
        eckankar was "the new age religion" about which I had no hesitation
        expressing my disdain. If nobody's noticed, the new age is nothing
        more than the slick marketing little bits and pieces of non-amerikan
        culture, ethnic history and paleontology as some kind of new aeon
        revelation. And people buy it! The new age movement is the
        marketing of a cult of superficial exoticism.

        I went to the Minneapolis main office once for some reason, and sat
        down with one of the officers, and spouted off about the new age
        thing--how it missed the whole point of the light and sound. I told
        the man I had spoken to allot of people in my state, and the general
        feeling out there was that the light and sound were merely a kind of
        metaphor (one very experienced arahata had actually said this to
        me.)

        Within six months, eckankar's new four-color brochures
        proclaimed "the religion of light and sound" or something to that
        effect. But in the end I guess it didn't help much to increase
        membership. Sound and light after all, isn't one of those things
        that you can really make many sexy promises about--especially when
        you have no real body of teachings to substantiate the
        claims. "Content free!"--seems to be the guideline for a teaching
        that is truly...(more trumpets)...BEYOND THE MIND!

        I want to mention that as I've been healing inwardly, and letting go
        of so much of the self-defeating nonsense I internalized from the
        eckankar teachings, it seems that my spiritual life is once again
        becoming coherent and viable. Two weeks ago, I did a very healing
        little ritual out on the river. I took a big metal pot and lit some
        charcoal in it on the edge of the damn. I sat there under the full
        moon and burned the eck paraphernalia I still had hanging around my
        apartment. I burned both copies of the Sharyat and a few other
        books, releasing my past, thanking god for giving me the strength to
        find my way out of all that soul-diminishing obfuscation they call
        eck.

        The best part was watching that weird photo of the Harold Klemp the
        973'rd living eck master curl up in a flickering blue and black flame
        and turn to ash. I spoke out loud: "I relinquish you. I'm my own
        master. God is more possible without you. You are smoke and ashes
        to me. Go be your own master Mr. Klemp."

        That night when I was finished, I sat quietly under the brilliant
        moon, feeling a huge weight had lifted from me. As I sat by the
        river, I listened to the soft rush of the water over the dam. And
        this is really true--the sound current returned. That deep electric
        hum, the melodic bell tone of my own physical and spiritual vitality.

        It's Getting Better All the Time,
        Mick
      • zorch@ix.netcom.com
        ... Hi Mick, I ve been reading some of your posts. It s obvious to me, and I m sure others, that you have a talent for writing, a special way of putting words
        Message 3 of 22 , May 13, 2001
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          ---
          Hi Mick,

          I've been reading some of your posts. It's obvious to me, and I'm
          sure others, that you have a talent for writing, a special way of
          putting words together. Please consider writing a book of some sort.

          Yours In The Air,

          Chuck



          In eckankartruth@y..., Pharmakon11@e... wrote:
          > Hi Bea,
          >
          > I'm glad you brought up this subject. It's close to my heart, and
          > one that is apparently little more than a superficial afterthought
          > for most eckankarists. I've noticed repeatedly over many years how
          > in eckankar, the mathematical exactitude of so called "karma" and
          the
          > interminable "learning of lessons" is interminably and habitually
          > invoked as the means of spiritual unfoldment. This is the same
          > religion that makes outrageous and unsupportable claims of being
          > (sound of trumpets now!)...BEYOND THE MIND! ...And the highest of
          > all paths to boot! The reason for this is that not one of all the
          > exalted initiates of eck seems to have the slightest idea how the
          > sound current actually fits into the picture--what with so much
          karma
          > and lesson learning to worry about!
          >
          > The dark side of the same dilemma is that if the sound current were
          > actually to supercede "karma" and all that tedious "lesson
          learning"
          > they keep droning on about, you'd have far less leverage or
          > psychological control over other people. You see, it's easier to
          > bully people into believing certain finite articles of faith as a
          > primary condition of spiritual transcendence. It's also far easier
          > and convenient to be able to cajole and coerce people into behaving
          > along certain rigid lines by suggesting there is a known curriculum
          > of karmic lessons to be learned as a precondition of higher states
          of
          > consciousness.
          >
          > An actual study of the lives of history's greatest Gnostics bears
          out
          > a far different variety of preconditions for spiritual
          > consciousness. (P.T. Barnum and Elvis notwithstanding.)
          >
          > Oh yeah, and then there's this other thing they sometimes mention
          > called "love". But that's dangerous to really go into if you want
          to
          > keep your power centralized, and your message sufficiently
          ambiguous.
          >
          > Bea, similar to you, for many years I had those experiences of the
          > Spiritual Current as well, the various sounds of the planes, entire
          > symphonies, as you describe, often came to me as I awoke in the
          > mornings. The constant vibratory sound of a deep electric hum with
          > undertones and overtones of singing sweetness and bells.
          >
          > I too practiced TM for two years before coming into eckankar. Two
          > months after beginning TM I had an intense, overwhelming experience
          > of the light and sound that left my inner senses quite a bit wide
          > open--including the ability to see a finer spectrum of light and
          > color around the body and other psychic sensibilities. The effort
          to
          > understand these experiences actually intensified my search for
          > answers and led me to eckankar.
          >
          > Eckankar not only spoke of the sound and light, it provided soul
          > travel techniques which enabled me to travel consciously out of the
          > body, and expand my sense of my own spiritual being. What became
          > apparent early on though, was that few in eckankar had any actual
          > knowledge of these things. Certainly a percentage of eckankarists
          > have these experiences, but understanding, and the capacity to
          share
          > knowledge about this is limited to the rote repetition of things
          > spoken by others and read in the eck literature. I was around in
          > eckankar long enough to note this repeatedly. Eckankar has no
          actual
          > teaching of light and sound. I defy anyone to prove otherwise.
          >
          > I remember once, Harold Klemp taking questions from the audience.
          A
          > man asked sincerely if he would speak for a few minutes about the
          > sound current. I was confused when Harold began by stumbling over
          > his words, seemingly grasping for something masterly to say. What
          he
          > finally was able to come up with, was two sentences from the book
          > Stranger by the River. I remember wondering why the head of the
          > order of masters of the sound current wouldn't or couldn't give us
          > any more than that.
          >
          > While I was RESA, I repeatedly urged class leaders to emphasize the
          > light and sound as the operable principle of spiritual unfoldment
          on
          > the path of eck. I was sick of hearing that simplistic Newtonian
          tit-
          > for-tat karma thing being used as an excuse for everything that
          > happens to people. I am not exaggerating when I say I cannot
          recall
          > speaking with one person in eckankar who even knew how they might
          > begin to do this. I frequently thought I must be on a path all by
          > myself--and in fact I was--which is why I was ultimately ostracized
          > by the thugs who control things at the moment.
          >
          > This was at the time that the latest marketing incarnation of
          > eckankar was "the new age religion" about which I had no hesitation
          > expressing my disdain. If nobody's noticed, the new age is nothing
          > more than the slick marketing little bits and pieces of non-
          amerikan
          > culture, ethnic history and paleontology as some kind of new aeon
          > revelation. And people buy it! The new age movement is the
          > marketing of a cult of superficial exoticism.
          >
          > I went to the Minneapolis main office once for some reason, and sat
          > down with one of the officers, and spouted off about the new age
          > thing--how it missed the whole point of the light and sound. I
          told
          > the man I had spoken to allot of people in my state, and the
          general
          > feeling out there was that the light and sound were merely a kind
          of
          > metaphor (one very experienced arahata had actually said this to
          > me.)
          >
          > Within six months, eckankar's new four-color brochures
          > proclaimed "the religion of light and sound" or something to that
          > effect. But in the end I guess it didn't help much to increase
          > membership. Sound and light after all, isn't one of those things
          > that you can really make many sexy promises about--especially when
          > you have no real body of teachings to substantiate the
          > claims. "Content free!"--seems to be the guideline for a teaching
          > that is truly...(more trumpets)...BEYOND THE MIND!
          >
          > I want to mention that as I've been healing inwardly, and letting
          go
          > of so much of the self-defeating nonsense I internalized from the
          > eckankar teachings, it seems that my spiritual life is once again
          > becoming coherent and viable. Two weeks ago, I did a very healing
          > little ritual out on the river. I took a big metal pot and lit
          some
          > charcoal in it on the edge of the damn. I sat there under the full
          > moon and burned the eck paraphernalia I still had hanging around my
          > apartment. I burned both copies of the Sharyat and a few other
          > books, releasing my past, thanking god for giving me the strength
          to
          > find my way out of all that soul-diminishing obfuscation they call
          > eck.
          >
          > The best part was watching that weird photo of the Harold Klemp the
          > 973'rd living eck master curl up in a flickering blue and black
          flame
          > and turn to ash. I spoke out loud: "I relinquish you. I'm my own
          > master. God is more possible without you. You are smoke and ashes
          > to me. Go be your own master Mr. Klemp."
          >
          > That night when I was finished, I sat quietly under the brilliant
          > moon, feeling a huge weight had lifted from me. As I sat by the
          > river, I listened to the soft rush of the water over the dam. And
          > this is really true--the sound current returned. That deep
          electric
          > hum, the melodic bell tone of my own physical and spiritual
          vitality.
          >
          > It's Getting Better All the Time,
          > Mick
        • Sharon
          Bea and Mick -- it s interesting that you both practiced TM first, and I m wondering why, if you got results there, you ended up in eckankar? I wasn t doing
          Message 4 of 22 , May 13, 2001
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            Bea and Mick -- it's interesting that you both practiced TM first, and I'm wondering why, if you got
            "results" there, you ended up in eckankar?

            I wasn't doing anything in particular when I started having "experiences". In fact, I'd say I was
            totally *non* spiritual at the time. It was after my once & for all telling "Jehovah" to f*** off, go
            ahead and kill me. My mother had joined when I was a child and drug me to the meetings, I
            hated it, believed it because, well...I had no reason not to. Although I believed it, I just couldn't
            go along with it. As an adult, I tried studying a few times because I wanted to save my children,
            but...I couldn't fake it, inside.

            I remember I'd used a self-hypnotism tape a few times for pain control, and also a Llewellyn tape
            on how to astral project. It had two sides -- Side 1 was a basic relaxation tape. Side 2 got more
            serious but I wasn't really interested in astral projection, although several friends were really into
            it. They did it "naturally", though. I liked Side 1 at times because it helped me to sleep. Didn't
            use it that often, though. I'd popped out of my body once some years before that, looked down
            to see my car heading up the road without me, and I popped back in real fast!! I couldn't afford
            an accident. It was my beloved old 55 Chevy, and I didn't have collision insurance. <gg>

            I was more interested in my children, raising rabbits, gardening, friends...you know, just life!

            Bea, I laughed at your mention of the orchestra! I'd begun having weird "experiences" and
            thought I was nuts, or had a brain tumor. Even went to the doctor and had an MRI & everything.
            I remember I'd sort of had this compulsion to "meditate" -- it would just happen, I'd need to sit
            tailor-style (which actually wasn't good for my knees) and close my eyes...I'd get this "feeling"
            and just would have to sit or lay down and, well...sort of trance out. It would even happen when I
            was driving, which was annoying. Not to mention, potentially dangerous! <gg>

            I remember once, there was a big explosion of light and a big booming noise, and I thought
            lightning had hit the TV or something. <gg>

            Anyway...back to the orchestra. I was at my sister-in-law's, and the "trance" thing hit. So...I went
            upstairs and lay down on my niece's bed, and got the orchestra. Totally incredible! And I saw,
            well...beautiful things. Very entrancing.

            When it ended, I went downstairs and asked my sister-in-law if she'd heard any music, if there
            was a radio on. She said no.

            You know, I remember it was at my sister-in-law's that I had another experience...I was
            babysitting, and the kids were asleep. This weird "presence" was very strong. I didn't know what
            it was...I was sort of getting used to it, though, and while part of me was confused and afraid, it
            was beautiful and I loved it.

            Anyway, on this one particular night, it's hard to describe but I was awake and aware, and it was
            sort of like being in a twinkly golden "fog" ... at the time, I wore a little twisted-metal ring on the
            middle finger of my left hand. It was like something that was a part of me, this "presence",
            moved the ring to my "ring finger" and a silent voice said "This is the true marriage."

            The next day, well...I've always had an aversion to the "m" word. I put the ring back where it
            belonged. At times, though, I moved it back to the ring finger. I resolved the problem by just
            taking the damn thing off and putting it in my jewelry box.

            Hey...I don't mind being "friends", but that's about as far as I was (and am) willing to go! <gg>

            Well...I ended up going to the library, found the eckbooks. Oh...in between, I had that deceptive
            invasive dream with Klemp. I ended up joining the cult, since at the time I couldn't differentiate
            between the "true" experiences and the false, deceptive "ecksperiences".

            The end result was the cult and its self-proclaimed pseudo-master slowly insinuated itself
            between me and ... the real thing. I remember towards the end in the cult, having this
            realization, almost a literal "seeing", of Klemp/the cult "mahanta" standing there on the "inner" ...
            and being in the way of the "real".

            I am glad I woke up and got out.

            But, well in spite of my feelings about that ring-thing, that was real. And I re-confirmed it. It's not
            something that can be ended, or refused or anything. But...it had nothing to do with the cult,
            although I was confused & misled about it. It's still there. It always will be.

            I rarely mess with any of this stuff anymore. Except, well...sometimes I need to "rest in God"
            which is what I call it. And as far as the "Sound" goes, well...I enjoy the sounds of earth. The
            wind, the birds, water rushing over rocks...even the silent sound of the stars from atop a
            mountain late at night. Oh...let's not forget baby-sounds, and children's laughter! If my ears
            start getting "weird" I simply turn it off.

            Mick, I'm glad your "ritual" helped you! I did one myself very shortly after leaving the cult in
            1998, for Samhain (Halloween). It seemed so appropriate...sort of making peace with the dead.
            (e-kult).
            Yep...the whole nekkid pagan ritual was awesome! I went back to my old home, to my friends
            the oaks where my hammock used to be, and I used the rock circle where we'd had many great
            hot-dog roasts. I put the candles in paper grocery-bags because the wind was blowing.

            I'm glad I never burned my eckbooks, although I remember at one point thinking about it. To be
            honest, I'm not thrilled that I have to keep that filth around, but...they're necessary for
            "detracting".

            Oh...hey, another great sound is Peepers! They seemed to start up earlier than usual last night
            while we were fishing! And my aquarium frog was singing last night, too!

            Hey, I'm sorry, but I honestly don't think much of that "god-worlds" stuff, and silly charts & everything. And...earth being supposedly "lower". That's nonsense, IMO. Everything just is what it is...the grass isn't necessarily greener somewhere else, you know!

            Well...have a nice day, everyone!

            Hugs,

            Sharon
          • Sharon
            ... You know, Mick, on this karma stuff, well... my feeling is karma can f*** off, too. In fact, it was in my early eckyears that I first thought this but
            Message 5 of 22 , May 13, 2001
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              --- In eckankartruth@y..., Pharmakon11@e... wrote:
              > Hi Bea,
              >
              > I'm glad you brought up this subject. It's close to my heart, and
              > one that is apparently little more than a superficial afterthought
              > for most eckankarists. I've noticed repeatedly over many years how
              > in eckankar, the mathematical exactitude of so called "karma" and the
              > interminable "learning of lessons" is interminably and habitually
              > invoked as the means of spiritual unfoldment. This is the same
              > religion that makes outrageous and unsupportable claims of being
              > (sound of trumpets now!)...BEYOND THE MIND! ...And the highest of
              > all paths to boot! The reason for this is that not one of all the
              > exalted initiates of eck seems to have the slightest idea how the
              > sound current actually fits into the picture--what with so much karma
              > and lesson learning to worry about!
              >
              > The dark side of the same dilemma is that if the sound current were
              > actually to supercede "karma" and all that tedious "lesson learning"
              > they keep droning on about, you'd have far less leverage or
              > psychological control over other people. You see, it's easier to
              > bully people into believing certain finite articles of faith as a
              > primary condition of spiritual transcendence. It's also far easier
              > and convenient to be able to cajole and coerce people into behaving
              > along certain rigid lines by suggesting there is a known curriculum
              > of karmic lessons to be learned as a precondition of higher states of
              > consciousness.


              You know, Mick, on this "karma" stuff, well... my feeling is karma can f*** off, too.

              In fact, it was in my early eckyears that I first thought this but ended up stifling it. I'd been targeted by a pedophile who thought it was a perfect set-up. My son was too young for his tastes, but by the time he was old enough, well...the creep had plans! The whole thing didn't last that long, although I briefly became "engaged". Anyway...hey, I did all the proper "ecky" things at the time, you know...all that meaningless "inner" bullshit, which got me into it to begin with and afterwards gave me a ridiculous "knowing" that this guy's being a pervert was *my* fault because we'd been married in 15th or 16th century France and I was screwing around on him, hence he had all this "karma" about not trusting women & that led him to go after young boys.

              What bullshit!! And at the time, that's what my common sense said...like, wait a minute, karma is NO excuse!!! You can rationalize things any way you like, but...it just does NOT work!!!

              It would be sort of like, okay...Jeffrey Dahmer, who at least recognized that he was doing wrong although he still did it. If the cult's bullshit "karma" was generally accepted in the world, Dahmer would have gone into court and said that he "knew" on the "inner" that all his victims had, in previous lives, tried to turn *him* into zombie love-slaves, etc. You could do the same thing with *any* murder or crime, you know? Just blame it on karma!!!

              Hey, I have absolutely *no* problem dealing with every moment of the day, and understand that anything choices I make or actions I choose affect the next moments, but...that's something we all learn as kids (or we shold) except it doesn't have all that fancy bullshit new-age karma crap attached to it.

              I think actually Christianity's "sin" teachings are much better. If you sin, you have to pay the consequences. But if you're genuinely sorry, you get forgiven. What's wrong with that? We make mistakes, do our best to make up for them, learn, not repeat them, etc. Whether you're "religious" or not, that's the way life works.

              An example which comes to mind is children who bite. I think most of us have known at least one. My youngest grandson was a biter, and my daughter was very upset and concerned, and tried a lot of things to stop it. I told her that he needed to be bit back, hard, and immediately when he bit someone. Well, finally another kid *did* bite him back, hard...and he stopped biting.

              Now, would it make sense if in some future lifetime, all the people he bit are going to have to bite him? I don't think so. That's something that only some sicko would think up...have to laugh, on one of the cult lists I read a funny essay proving that God is bi-polar. Now, that's not the kind of God I want anything to do with. Come to think of it, that bi-polar "jehovah" God is the same as e-kult's LEM/M.


              Well...just some thoughts.

              Hugs,

              Sharon
            • blatherings@hotmail.com
              Mick, Thanks very much for your response. I think I may be finding what I was looking for by joining this list...people who truly are seekers, instead of
              Message 6 of 22 , May 13, 2001
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                Mick,
                Thanks very much for your response. I think I may be finding what I
                was looking for by joining this list...people who truly are seekers,
                instead of eckbots. I do know true seekers in Eckankar (I was one)
                but they are so frightened to break the rules by having true open
                discussion, that I gave up.
                I stayed in as long as I did also because (even though some just HATE
                the spiritual exercises,) they did work for me. I had a period of
                time where I was soul traveling all over the place, although I never
                did get anything resembling control over it. I could get an
                experience started, but after that it seemed to be pretty random. I'd
                love to hear more about what you were able to do, and how you did it.
                Love,
                Bea
              • blatherings@hotmail.com
                Sharon, What is an Ecksperience? I assume you re referring to spritual experiences that aren t real in retrospect. I had lesson experiences, that were
                Message 7 of 22 , May 13, 2001
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                  Sharon,
                  What is an "Ecksperience?" I assume you're referring to "spritual
                  experiences" that aren't real in retrospect.

                  I had "lesson" experiences, that were rather obviously designed to
                  teach me to replace fear with love, a valuable and needed lesson for
                  me. They involved a male teacher, but he did not resemble Harold in
                  any way.

                  So what is an Ecksperience? (The more I read this list, the more I
                  realize that I was not taken in nearly to the extent that it seems
                  most are/were.)

                  Love,
                  Bea
                • tarryrob@yahoo.ca
                  Hi Bea! I found the sound to be the most appealing aspect of eckankar s. I ve heard music in my head for as long as I can remember, long before I actually
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 13, 2001
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                    Hi Bea!

                    I found the "sound" to be the most appealing aspect of eckankar's.
                    I've heard music in my head for as long as I can remember, long
                    before I actually began to study music. It's almost like I have a
                    "photographic memory" for music and lyrics. This used to drive my
                    teacher nuts, because I'd always play from memory rather than read
                    sheet music. I never thought of this ability as anything
                    extraordinary until I became older and realized few people actually
                    could actually do this.

                    In eckankar, I discovered the melodies of the universe. I began to
                    hear music in the most mundane of sounds. I began to appreciate how
                    silence, pitch and timbre interwove to help me differentiate and
                    construct meaning. I'd listen to my breathing and heartbeat while at
                    the same time being aware of passing traffic, birds, swaying of
                    trees, voices and still hear the high pitched "flute of god." I
                    could easily appreciate the omnipresence of god in this manner within
                    and without. Of course, sound reverberates everywhere, infinitely,
                    and this awareness also made it easy for me to comprehend the idea of
                    the Akashic Records, infinity....

                    Unfortunately, although eckankar held "the sound" to be it's own
                    unique feature (an outright lie since Twitch stole the teaching from
                    Sant Mat), in reality, it treated "the sound" as only one of many
                    spiritual excercises. Although I had my greatest success with sound
                    excercises, I felt obliged to try a variety of others (with far less
                    results). Herein, I believe, lies the greatest deservice Twitch has
                    committed against his chelas. Because eckankar is basically a
                    hodgepodge of teachings Twitch has thrown together (Jungian
                    psychology, scientology, Sant Mat, raja yoga, western occultism....),
                    students rarely develop a proper foundation (except by luck) or a
                    workable methodology for success with sound exercises (or any other
                    excercise for that matter). An eck chela at any given time is
                    concerned with dream logs, golden tongued wisdom, presence of the
                    master, light ex, sound ex, soul travelling, temples of golden
                    wisdoms, various masters, various planes, eck vidya, chanting,
                    psychic stuff, initiate reports...... I suspect most chelas were
                    either too stressed, or too uncertain about what they were doing to
                    every have much success. Even if they did, they'd have a hard time
                    determining the meaning of what took place. But of course, eckankar
                    teaches its students to not ask questions, be patient, surrender to
                    the master and all things will work themselves out. This made it
                    almost impossible to actually tell who really had success and who
                    didn't. Students were almost browbeaten into playing along, whether
                    they had success or not, in order to save face and play the game.

                    In yoga, practice of the sound is a very advanced technique. Before a
                    student begins practising these advanced techniques, they must first
                    go through seven steps of physical and mental preparation. These are
                    yama (restraint from impure actions or right discrimination), niyama
                    (observations),asanas (hatha yoga for the body), pranayama (breathing
                    ex.), pratyahara (relaxation ex.), dharana (concentration),dhyana
                    (meditation) and samadhi (superconsciousness achieved through
                    advanced forms of meditation). Meditation is broken down into 2
                    types: concrete and abstract. A student begins with concrete
                    meditation (ie. using a candle, the moon, the sun, picture of a holy
                    person....) and, as they become adept move on to meditating on
                    abstract ideas (purity, compassion, eternity, infinity). The sound
                    fits into this last category of absract meditation.

                    My point in offering this very rudimentary presentation is NOT to
                    advocate any other spiritual teaching. I simply wish to point out
                    that, UNLIKE eckankar, raja yoga/sant mat hinduism are VERY organized
                    teachings and each aspect of the teachings fit into an cohesive
                    whole. Students are NOT inundated with a plethora of exercises which
                    leave their head's spinning. The students work through the teachings
                    step by step, and each step is mastered before moving on.

                    Those interested in doing more work in sound, may want to have a look
                    at Sant Mat teachings or those of Raja Yoga (caution - beware of
                    "masters".

                    Om Shanti


                    tarryrob






                    >
                    > My first experience with inner sounds (that I remember, as an
                    adult)
                    > was in my 20's, after I learned Trancendental Meditation. During a
                    > very deep meditation (about two weeks after I learned the
                    technique)
                    > I heard exquisitly beautiful orchestral music, in my head, in
                    > stereo....and I could "make" it go wherever I wanted. Since I'm a
                    > trained classical musician and composer, that context makes sense.
                    I
                    > first heard of the "sound current" 20 years after that, when I
                    > joined Eckankar. After joining, I focused in again on that kind of
                    > experience, and in my first six months I had many Sound experiences
                    > (the capital S is to designate what kind of sound I'm referring to,
                    > the inner sound) including most of the ones that are in the Eck
                    chart
                    > of the planes. Including violins, clarinets, tinkling bells, ocean
                    > surf, and usually a full orchestra, often with a cello solo.
                    > I've always thorougly enjoyed these experiences with Sound, and I
                    > find that if I concentrate for a few days, I can bring one about,
                    > just by force of intent.
                    > What insights do you people have about Sound experiences? Obviously
                    I
                    > didn't need Eckankar to have the inner sound experience. Lately
                    what
                    > I hear in meditation sounds a whole lot like crickets. I liked the
                    > orchestra better!!
                    > Love,
                    > Bea
                  • Sharon
                    ... Good question, Bea! So...I thought about it. And I think basically, it s sort of a.r.e.detractorspeak! (You re making me *work* here, Bea!)
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 13, 2001
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                      --- In eckankartruth@y..., blatherings@h... wrote:
                      > Sharon,
                      > What is an "Ecksperience?" I assume you're referring to "spritual
                      > experiences" that aren't real in retrospect.
                      >

                      Good question, Bea! So...I thought about it. And I think basically,
                      it's sort of "a.r.e.detractorspeak! <ggg>

                      (You're making me *work* here, Bea!)

                      Okay...what I mean is basically, *any* experience which may or may not be "real" (whatever the heck "real" is) but *does* serve to reinforce one's believe in the cult & its "teachings".

                      So, it's sort of, well...anything deceptive. For example...my first "ecksperience" was the invasive dream with Klemp. On the surface, it got me into the cult, and seemed to "prove" what the cult was teaching.

                      When I looked at it more closely, without the eck-colored glasses, it actually *was* pretty accurate.

                      Klemp was leading me down some stairs (and I remember the upstairs was light & bright) in what he called "His Father's Mansion" and he said I was going to live there. And he guided me into a room on the left (and it was just right at this moment that the "left" struck me...the left-hand path, perhaps?) that had no windows, and dark paneling, and a giant-screen TV, and heavy furniture that some might consider "luxurious". I said this was much too fancy for me, and wasn't there a little cottage on the grounds I could live in?

                      It wasn't until after I got out and re-examined this dream that I saw the truth in it. Oh...this was shortly before I started going to the library, and happened upon the eckbooks. It was a poorly stocked library, especially the religion/philosophy section, and it's sickening when I look back and realize that the eckbooks weren't there because of "Spirit" but simply because it was a cultic recruiting tactic begun by Twitchell. One early thing I read was how if you just picked up an eckbook, it was your "appointment with The Master" ... and never made the connection between Twitch's telling cult members to leave eckbooks around in public, and the cult's later focused & organized effort to have members donate books to libraries.




                      > I had "lesson" experiences, that were rather obviously designed to
                      > teach me to replace fear with love, a valuable and needed lesson for
                      > me.

                      Well, I don't know about this, but I understand what you're saying here. And my own personal thought is perhaps although in a sense "God" does give us lessons, well...the cult uses this way of thinking as a means to control, and isn't all of life actually filled with learning experiences? That's just the way life is. You can sort of think of it how you want...I guess I sort of look at it in a broader sense since I got out of the cult, as I did before I got in it.

                      An example here. I used to have a horrible fear of spiders indoors. Outdoors, they didn't really bother me. I mean...I'd get positively hysterical!! It was quite silly, actually.

                      Now...before I got mixed up in the cult, I moved into an older house that was *filled* with spiders! Those big wolf spiders that *jump*!!
                      And...they're too big & messy if you just "squish" them, so I'd often put a Mason jar over them, and vacuum them up when they died.

                      Well...let me tell you, the spiders were *bad*!! And...I'm sort of organic, don't like poisons & pesticides. It was getting a bit difficult to walk through the house & avoid all the Mason jars!

                      One night, I was sitting on the sofa watching TV. The bathroom was on the other side of the living room. The spiders were racing back and forth, and I was honestly too frightened to walk across the room. I can sort of laugh now. But I *was* honestly afraid!

                      That was the night I decided, this is nonsense. I decided not to be afraid anymore. I decided since the house was full of spiders, I'd have to learn to live with them. Okay...I still used Mason jars <gg> but I wasn't all "creepy" about it. I reminded myself that they *do* eat other bugs, so they're useful. I drew the line at spiders around my bed, though. I let them hang out in corners, moved them outside, etc. I grew to love & appreciate them. In fact, I had my own "Charlotte" who dropped down towards my bed from the ceiling one night. I put her out by my porch light, and for many years she & her offspring built webs & caught lots of bugs. And there was another incredibly beautiful one in my bathroom...it was sort of neat, with pink stripes. I was hoping it would have babies, but it didn't.

                      Not only was this before the cult, it was before I read Frank Herbert's "Dune" books and discovered the beautiful Bene Gesserit "Litany Against Fear" which came in quite handy at various times. Oh...and I read the "Dune" books before my cult membership, too.
                      (If anyone hasn't read them...they're awesome!) I'd post the "Litany" here, but unfortunately I don't have it saved on my harddrive, and I don't have any of the books anymore. I used to have it saved at "My-Deja" but, well...Google didn't keep the "saved searches & threads" function.


                      >They involved a male teacher, but he did not resemble Harold in
                      > any way.
                      >

                      I find this very interesting!

                      In my own "travels", well...I traveled alone. Saw Harold a few times, but...nothing really impressive. Like...I'd be sort of bopping through dusty old crowded schools, and he'd be teaching there. I never went to his classes. Once I dreamed I was outside of the cult's "temple" (before it was built) happily chatting outdoors with other people, and he appeared and sternly tugged me on the arm, and indicated I should go inside. I wasn't too happy about it, but obeyed.

                      You know, I always told myself that I didn't see all those "eckmasters" and "golden wisdom temples" because I wasn't "spiritually aware" enough. But...I *did* visit some incredible places! And, to be honest, I wondered why there weren't "eckmasters" there.


                      > So what is an Ecksperience? (The more I read this list, the more I
                      > realize that I was not taken in nearly to the extent that it seems
                      > most are/were.)
                      >

                      Well, as I said, I think "ecksperience" is sort of detractor-speak! <gg>

                      I wasn't taken in as deeply as many...and *none* of us who leave are taken in to the extent of those who stay. But...I was working on it. Over the years, well...it was more of an "inner" thing with me, simply because of the "demands" of everyday life, and the distance & time of the various eckfunctions, and the expense of seminars. But, for almost 15 years I was looking forward to the time when I could devote *all* of me to the Org, and do things like teach classes, etc.

                      There were just "funny" little things over the years that, well...didn't exactly "set" right with me. I didn't exactly think of them as "doubts", just things I didn't quite understand. I understand now. They were warning signals that I should have payed closer heed to.

                      You know, there was one very early "experience" I had shortly after I joined the cult. In "contemplation", as I often did, I "saw" things on the "inner screen". In this one, there were three figures...sort of stick-figures...walking towards me through a mist. I watched in wonderment, sort of. And it was like a voice was saying "this has nothing to do with eckankar". Yet, not long after, I read in I believe one of Patti Simpson's books, something about eckmasters appearing as stick-figures. So...in spite of this genuine "inner knowing" that what I saw was *not* eckankar, well...I told myself that evidently, it *was*.

                      I honestly don't know what to think about a lot of things. I know that there's always been "someone" with me, from childhood...and during my cult years, I told myself that what the cult taught was true, that it was the LEM/M. But...although since I left whatever/whoever the heck it is has mostly honored my request that I sort of be left alone right now.

                      It's funny, but a few months after I left, I got a very loud "order" to get my wayward butt to Catholic Mass, after being away since a bit before age 10. I obeyed. If you'd heard it, you would have too! It ended up being an incredibly beautiful experience...but, the end result is although the experience was good, and I *do* love a lot of Catholicism, well...you know, I think I was "sent" there to learn exactly what I learned. There's great spiritual truth & beauty there, but...there are also the "cultic" aspects.

                      But....heck, you can probably classify just about *everything* in life as "cultic" to a certain extent!

                      I *do* have a bit of a "problem" with this "Master" stuff. I am, after all, sort of an independent bitch!! It takes a heck of a lot for me to "submit" and when & if I do, well...let's just say that the way I do it is sort of humorous, maybe a matter of "respect" but a lot of it is sort of "joking" because, well...a true "Master" understands me, and knows that I think basically "mastership" is a crock, and we both laugh about it.

                      Don't know if that makes sense.

                      I usually find it easier to use "real-life" examples. And one that comes to mind here is a recent discussion I had with a friend, about things like "subservience" and different "roles" in the male-female relationship. Now...I will admit I *do* enjoy "pampering" men. And any loved one, actually. For example...I used to take great pleasure in warming after-bath towels on my woodstove for both children and, uh..."friends". And of course there's cooking, and serving meals, and just doing little "special" things. But I made it quite clear to my friend so that it would be understood these are just sort of gifts of love, and although it may appear to be "subservience" it would be a cold day in hell before I "served" anyone who was too damn lazy to take care of themselves! And although it's not necessary, I *do* thoroughly enjoy enjoy & appreciate being "pampered" in return...for example, when my son would just spontaneously cook for me, or when my friend has the coffee made when I wake up, although he's not a coffee drinker.

                      It's about little things, you know? Even silly things like putting coupons for brands you don't use on the items in the store, so others can get a few cents off.

                      I'd be interested in hearing more about this "teacher" if you'd like to share!

                      You know, well...I don't want to go into it, but I met a few *very* "strange" real-life people. Seemed totally "ordinary" but...they weren't. I still don't know what to think about them...or why they told me the things they did, and basically sort of entrusted their "secrets" to me. Not really "secrets", other than their not being what they appeared to be. And...they had *nothing* to do with e-kult, which actually I found sort of odd at those times. Just strange, you know? And...I've also known a lot of "not-strange" people who bop around quite freely on the "other planes" yet laugh at the "spiritual" labels. Is "spiritual" just a popular buzz-word right now? I don't know. I think everything just sort of is what it is, and what you call life is just life, and doesn't need labels, although perhaps some find labels useful.

                      There are *so* many totally fascinating things in the world! I neither believe nor disbelieve just about everything, to be honest.


                      Well...I'm sort of tired! And I'm probably rambling here...

                      Have a good week, everyone!

                      Hugs,

                      Sharon
                    • Hawksblood2@aol.com
                      Just a short note. Just because Eckankar said that sound come from certain plains they do not own them . Where eckankar came from talked about the sounds even
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 14, 2001
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                        Just a short note. Just because Eckankar said that sound come from certain
                        plains they do not own them . Where eckankar came from talked about the
                        sounds even before the 1800 hundreds. Yes each world does have a sound. But
                        because you hear them doesn't not even mean you are there. Or you can travel
                        there. Then the other thing that goes with that is the Gods of each world.
                        You do have to go through them to get to the next world. So if you did not
                        you are still on the Astral world. In love and light. Peace and truth. Not
                        like eckankar. T-Hawk


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Hawksblood2@aol.com
                        Sorry you feel the way you do. Karma is just another word for cause and effect. Responcablity. Just what most people cannot except. Peace [Non-text portions of
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 14, 2001
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                          Sorry you feel the way you do. Karma is just another word for cause and
                          effect. Responcablity. Just what most people cannot except. Peace


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Randy Cable
                          ... ******************************************************** Thank-you Hawksblood! But as I recall the writ of your post can be found in eckankar the key to
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 15, 2001
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                            --- Hawksblood2@... wrote:
                            > Just a short note. Just because Eckankar said that
                            > sound come from certain
                            > plains they do not own them . Where eckankar came
                            > from talked about the
                            > sounds even before the 1800 hundreds. Yes each world
                            > does have a sound. But
                            > because you hear them doesn't not even mean you are
                            > there. Or you can travel
                            > there. Then the other thing that goes with that is
                            > the Gods of each world.
                            > You do have to go through them to get to the next
                            > world. So if you did not
                            > you are still on the Astral world. In love and
                            > light. Peace and truth. Not
                            > like eckankar. T-Hawk
                            ********************************************************
                            Thank-you Hawksblood! But as I recall the writ of your
                            post can be found in eckankar the key to secret worlds
                            book and the flute of god book. Due to Paulji's past
                            it is hard to say where he got the information. As I
                            can recall in my internet research about eCult and
                            P.T. is that P.T, took Sri Premananda's inner
                            experiences and claimed his as his own. He also
                            extensively used other sources of information as his
                            own and made up the fubbi's so to speak of the God
                            Worlds. So as a whole he nor his work can be trusted.
                            But here again we hace the marvelous imagination of
                            which is a part of our individual divinity.
                            So sooner or later the subconscious will find
                            fulfillment of cult input after One's imagination
                            "runs away". In this way cults become a tool for self
                            deception. "Belief is the key to manipulation of One's
                            mind and imaginative process or faculty.
                            P.T. having been a $cientologist understood this.
                            There is belief, intnet and anticipation. To
                            understand how the metaphysical side of divinity works
                            should instill a sense of deep responsibilty within
                            the teacher's mind, Paul chose to be a master
                            charlatan.
                            The problem with P.T.'s work is that for many who have
                            left the eCult even boubt the seemingly higher
                            realizations. That eCult programming caused the Twitch
                            fantasy to take on a life of its own for the member
                            of the cult.
                            As far as inner palnes go, a person can be escorted
                            with an Angleic or other being of Light to higher
                            worlds. I honestly beleive that due to the eCult's
                            crap
                            I could have a "life automated" imaginative fantasy
                            and after the experience swear on a stack of Shariyats
                            that I indeed did visit those Lord of each inner plane
                            (Theosophy) and was allowed to pass to the next higher
                            plane. Paul Twitchell lied and stole other folks inner
                            experiences as his own and stole their hard
                            intellectual work and profited aaat the expense of
                            others creativity and painstaking literary works.
                            But I do know of a teacher who can shift her attention
                            to the physical, or use her third eye and see all the
                            planes of God at once. You can sit at home and enjoy a
                            panoramic view of all planes, in time.
                            Spirit desires to have a relationship with anyone and
                            will work with any format ior tapestry the idividual
                            offers. So spirit assumes the forms of the eMasters
                            and temples and mocks up other experiences. At least
                            Spirit's desire is fulfilled. Ultimately only good can
                            come from this because as inner experiences increase,
                            doubts about the eCult do too. The discourses and
                            Spirit's interaction with the individual soon do not
                            "jive"
                            *Peace*
                            Randy
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >
                          • blatherings@hotmail.com
                            Whoa, Sharon, if I had had an invasive dream like you did with Harold...whew!! But I didn t. Gee, isn t it against spritual law to invade someone s spiritual
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 15, 2001
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                              Whoa, Sharon, if I had had an invasive dream like you did with
                              Harold...whew!! But I didn't. Gee, isn't it "against spritual law" to
                              invade someone's spiritual territory? !! It would be _really_ hard to
                              get out of Eckankar with that kind of introduction.

                              Now I have to tell you about the dream experience that I interpreted
                              as my 1st initiation. I encountered what I will refer to as a Being.
                              It appeared to be a man, actually someone who used to be my boss,
                              whom I just can't stand to this day. What was astounding was the
                              eyes; it's one of those concepts that you can't express in English
                              because it doesn't exist in physical reality...but the eyes "were"
                              Love. Pure, powerful Love. It was a truly amazing experience. Since I
                              was 6 months into Eckankar at the time, I identified this Being as
                              the Mahanta. (I've never considered harold and the mahanta to be one
                              and the same, although I acknowledged that possibly he could attain
                              that state of consciousness.) I suppose a Christian would identify it
                              as Christ. I still don't know what/who that Being was, but the Love
                              was incredibly real. Later study has intimated that this was actually
                              my higher self. (but...2nd initiation tells you that _you_ are the
                              Mahanta, so one and the same, anyway. Not Harold, ME.)

                              And I was giggling when I read about your spiders..we have wolf
                              spiders here, too, and I like them, altho I've only had one in my
                              house. It was stuck in the sink....I trapped it under some tupperware
                              and put it outside. But only after I got a good look at its face!!

                              Anyhow, the dream that stands out most in my "replace fear with love"
                              instruction was about .....spiders!! (which is why I was laughing!)
                              It was a dream that repeated a large number of times, sort of
                              a "reset" condition. The first time through, I was totally covered
                              with five-inch-long spider-like many-legged bugs, and was frantically
                              brushing them off me, squishing a lot of them in the process. After
                              umpteen "resets" and repeats....I was gently picking each one up,
                              loveingly, and setting them aside. It was a neat lesson. I've read in
                              robert monroe's writings that he went through many similar "reset"
                              lessons of this type.

                              I guess the reason why I'm so fond of Robert Monroe's writings is
                              that I have had many experiences that are quite similar to his,
                              without the front-loading of imagining it ahead of time.

                              Love,
                              Bea
                            • blatherings@hotmail.com
                              ... Randy, I couldn t agree more. The key to overcoming ecult programming is to go within. Spirit will take any form that you imagine it to...if you think
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 15, 2001
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                                > Spirit desires to have a relationship with anyone and
                                > will work with any format ior tapestry the idividual
                                > offers. So spirit assumes the forms of the eMasters
                                > and temples and mocks up other experiences. At least
                                > Spirit's desire is fulfilled. Ultimately only good can
                                > come from this because as inner experiences increase,
                                > doubts about the eCult do too. The discourses and
                                > Spirit's interaction with the individual soon do not
                                > "jive"
                                > *Peace*
                                > Randy

                                Randy,
                                I couldn't agree more. The key to overcoming ecult programming is to
                                go within. Spirit will take any form that you imagine it to...if you
                                think Spirit looks like a tarantula, that's what you'll see.
                                I'm just finishing a fantastic book called "The Power of Now: a Guide
                                to Spiritual Enlightenment," by Eckhart Tolle. It contains specific
                                instruction on how to "go within," and I'm getting some very nice
                                results from his technique.
                                Love,
                                Bea
                              • Pharmakon11@earthlink.net
                                Chuck, Thanks for the encouraging words. Maybe someday I ll find something worth writing about. Meantime, I m building a life out of my own sensibilities and
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 15, 2001
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                                  Chuck,

                                  Thanks for the encouraging words. Maybe someday I'll find something
                                  worth writing about. Meantime, I'm building a life out of my own
                                  sensibilities and vision (for the first time)...something my
                                  involvement in eckankar postponed for many years. It's catch-up time
                                  for now!

                                  Mick


                                  --- In eckankartruth@y..., zorch@i... wrote:
                                  > ---
                                  > Hi Mick,
                                  >
                                  > I've been reading some of your posts. It's obvious to me, and I'm
                                  > sure others, that you have a talent for writing, a special way of
                                  > putting words together. Please consider writing a book of some sort.
                                  >
                                  > Yours In The Air,
                                  >
                                  > Chuck
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > In eckankartruth@y..., Pharmakon11@e... wrote:
                                  > > Hi Bea,
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm glad you brought up this subject. It's close to my heart,
                                  and
                                  > > one that is apparently little more than a superficial
                                  afterthought
                                  > > for most eckankarists. I've noticed repeatedly over many years
                                  how
                                  > > in eckankar, the mathematical exactitude of so called "karma" and
                                  > the
                                  > > interminable "learning of lessons" is interminably and habitually
                                  > > invoked as the means of spiritual unfoldment. This is the same
                                  > > religion that makes outrageous and unsupportable claims of being
                                  > > (sound of trumpets now!)...BEYOND THE MIND! ...And the highest
                                  of
                                  > > all paths to boot! The reason for this is that not one of all
                                  the
                                  > > exalted initiates of eck seems to have the slightest idea how the
                                  > > sound current actually fits into the picture--what with so much
                                  > karma
                                  > > and lesson learning to worry about!
                                  > >
                                  > > The dark side of the same dilemma is that if the sound current
                                  were
                                  > > actually to supercede "karma" and all that tedious "lesson
                                  > learning"
                                  > > they keep droning on about, you'd have far less leverage or
                                  > > psychological control over other people. You see, it's easier to
                                  > > bully people into believing certain finite articles of faith as a
                                  > > primary condition of spiritual transcendence. It's also far
                                  easier
                                  > > and convenient to be able to cajole and coerce people into
                                  behaving
                                  > > along certain rigid lines by suggesting there is a known
                                  curriculum
                                  > > of karmic lessons to be learned as a precondition of higher
                                  states
                                  > of
                                  > > consciousness.
                                  > >
                                  > > An actual study of the lives of history's greatest Gnostics bears
                                  > out
                                  > > a far different variety of preconditions for spiritual
                                  > > consciousness. (P.T. Barnum and Elvis notwithstanding.)
                                  > >
                                  > > Oh yeah, and then there's this other thing they sometimes mention
                                  > > called "love". But that's dangerous to really go into if you
                                  want
                                  > to
                                  > > keep your power centralized, and your message sufficiently
                                  > ambiguous.
                                  > >
                                  > > Bea, similar to you, for many years I had those experiences of
                                  the
                                  > > Spiritual Current as well, the various sounds of the planes,
                                  entire
                                  > > symphonies, as you describe, often came to me as I awoke in the
                                  > > mornings. The constant vibratory sound of a deep electric hum
                                  with
                                  > > undertones and overtones of singing sweetness and bells.
                                  > >
                                  > > I too practiced TM for two years before coming into eckankar.
                                  Two
                                  > > months after beginning TM I had an intense, overwhelming
                                  experience
                                  > > of the light and sound that left my inner senses quite a bit wide
                                  > > open--including the ability to see a finer spectrum of light and
                                  > > color around the body and other psychic sensibilities. The
                                  effort
                                  > to
                                  > > understand these experiences actually intensified my search for
                                  > > answers and led me to eckankar.
                                  > >
                                  > > Eckankar not only spoke of the sound and light, it provided soul
                                  > > travel techniques which enabled me to travel consciously out of
                                  the
                                  > > body, and expand my sense of my own spiritual being. What became
                                  > > apparent early on though, was that few in eckankar had any actual
                                  > > knowledge of these things. Certainly a percentage of
                                  eckankarists
                                  > > have these experiences, but understanding, and the capacity to
                                  > share
                                  > > knowledge about this is limited to the rote repetition of things
                                  > > spoken by others and read in the eck literature. I was around in
                                  > > eckankar long enough to note this repeatedly. Eckankar has no
                                  > actual
                                  > > teaching of light and sound. I defy anyone to prove otherwise.
                                  > >
                                  > > I remember once, Harold Klemp taking questions from the
                                  audience.
                                  > A
                                  > > man asked sincerely if he would speak for a few minutes about the
                                  > > sound current. I was confused when Harold began by stumbling
                                  over
                                  > > his words, seemingly grasping for something masterly to say.
                                  What
                                  > he
                                  > > finally was able to come up with, was two sentences from the book
                                  > > Stranger by the River. I remember wondering why the head of the
                                  > > order of masters of the sound current wouldn't or couldn't give
                                  us
                                  > > any more than that.
                                  > >
                                  > > While I was RESA, I repeatedly urged class leaders to emphasize
                                  the
                                  > > light and sound as the operable principle of spiritual unfoldment
                                  > on
                                  > > the path of eck. I was sick of hearing that simplistic Newtonian
                                  > tit-
                                  > > for-tat karma thing being used as an excuse for everything that
                                  > > happens to people. I am not exaggerating when I say I cannot
                                  > recall
                                  > > speaking with one person in eckankar who even knew how they might
                                  > > begin to do this. I frequently thought I must be on a path all
                                  by
                                  > > myself--and in fact I was--which is why I was ultimately
                                  ostracized
                                  > > by the thugs who control things at the moment.
                                  > >
                                  > > This was at the time that the latest marketing incarnation of
                                  > > eckankar was "the new age religion" about which I had no
                                  hesitation
                                  > > expressing my disdain. If nobody's noticed, the new age is
                                  nothing
                                  > > more than the slick marketing little bits and pieces of non-
                                  > amerikan
                                  > > culture, ethnic history and paleontology as some kind of new aeon
                                  > > revelation. And people buy it! The new age movement is the
                                  > > marketing of a cult of superficial exoticism.
                                  > >
                                  > > I went to the Minneapolis main office once for some reason, and
                                  sat
                                  > > down with one of the officers, and spouted off about the new age
                                  > > thing--how it missed the whole point of the light and sound. I
                                  > told
                                  > > the man I had spoken to allot of people in my state, and the
                                  > general
                                  > > feeling out there was that the light and sound were merely a kind
                                  > of
                                  > > metaphor (one very experienced arahata had actually said this to
                                  > > me.)
                                  > >
                                  > > Within six months, eckankar's new four-color brochures
                                  > > proclaimed "the religion of light and sound" or something to that
                                  > > effect. But in the end I guess it didn't help much to increase
                                  > > membership. Sound and light after all, isn't one of those things
                                  > > that you can really make many sexy promises about--especially
                                  when
                                  > > you have no real body of teachings to substantiate the
                                  > > claims. "Content free!"--seems to be the guideline for a
                                  teaching
                                  > > that is truly...(more trumpets)...BEYOND THE MIND!
                                  > >
                                  > > I want to mention that as I've been healing inwardly, and letting
                                  > go
                                  > > of so much of the self-defeating nonsense I internalized from the
                                  > > eckankar teachings, it seems that my spiritual life is once again
                                  > > becoming coherent and viable. Two weeks ago, I did a very
                                  healing
                                  > > little ritual out on the river. I took a big metal pot and lit
                                  > some
                                  > > charcoal in it on the edge of the damn. I sat there under the
                                  full
                                  > > moon and burned the eck paraphernalia I still had hanging around
                                  my
                                  > > apartment. I burned both copies of the Sharyat and a few other
                                  > > books, releasing my past, thanking god for giving me the strength
                                  > to
                                  > > find my way out of all that soul-diminishing obfuscation they
                                  call
                                  > > eck.
                                  > >
                                  > > The best part was watching that weird photo of the Harold Klemp
                                  the
                                  > > 973'rd living eck master curl up in a flickering blue and black
                                  > flame
                                  > > and turn to ash. I spoke out loud: "I relinquish you. I'm my
                                  own
                                  > > master. God is more possible without you. You are smoke and
                                  ashes
                                  > > to me. Go be your own master Mr. Klemp."
                                  > >
                                  > > That night when I was finished, I sat quietly under the brilliant
                                  > > moon, feeling a huge weight had lifted from me. As I sat by the
                                  > > river, I listened to the soft rush of the water over the dam.
                                  And
                                  > > this is really true--the sound current returned. That deep
                                  > electric
                                  > > hum, the melodic bell tone of my own physical and spiritual
                                  > vitality.
                                  > >
                                  > > It's Getting Better All the Time,
                                  > > Mick
                                • Pharmakon11@earthlink.net
                                  Randy, Thanks for this post. It s very wise. Mick
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 15, 2001
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                                    Randy,

                                    Thanks for this post. It's very wise.

                                    Mick


                                    > Thank-you Hawksblood! But as I recall the writ of your
                                    > post can be found in eckankar the key to secret worlds
                                    > book and the flute of god book. Due to Paulji's past
                                    > it is hard to say where he got the information. As I
                                    > can recall in my internet research about eCult and
                                    > P.T. is that P.T, took Sri Premananda's inner
                                    > experiences and claimed his as his own. He also
                                    > extensively used other sources of information as his
                                    > own and made up the fubbi's so to speak of the God
                                    > Worlds. So as a whole he nor his work can be trusted.
                                    > But here again we hace the marvelous imagination of
                                    > which is a part of our individual divinity.
                                    > So sooner or later the subconscious will find
                                    > fulfillment of cult input after One's imagination
                                    > "runs away". In this way cults become a tool for self
                                    > deception. "Belief is the key to manipulation of One's
                                    > mind and imaginative process or faculty.
                                    > P.T. having been a $cientologist understood this.
                                    > There is belief, intnet and anticipation. To
                                    > understand how the metaphysical side of divinity works
                                    > should instill a sense of deep responsibilty within
                                    > the teacher's mind, Paul chose to be a master
                                    > charlatan.
                                    > The problem with P.T.'s work is that for many who have
                                    > left the eCult even boubt the seemingly higher
                                    > realizations. That eCult programming caused the Twitch
                                    > fantasy to take on a life of its own for the member
                                    > of the cult.
                                    > As far as inner palnes go, a person can be escorted
                                    > with an Angleic or other being of Light to higher
                                    > worlds. I honestly beleive that due to the eCult's
                                    > crap
                                    > I could have a "life automated" imaginative fantasy
                                    > and after the experience swear on a stack of Shariyats
                                    > that I indeed did visit those Lord of each inner plane
                                    > (Theosophy) and was allowed to pass to the next higher
                                    > plane. Paul Twitchell lied and stole other folks inner
                                    > experiences as his own and stole their hard
                                    > intellectual work and profited aaat the expense of
                                    > others creativity and painstaking literary works.
                                    > But I do know of a teacher who can shift her attention
                                    > to the physical, or use her third eye and see all the
                                    > planes of God at once. You can sit at home and enjoy a
                                    > panoramic view of all planes, in time.
                                    > Spirit desires to have a relationship with anyone and
                                    > will work with any format ior tapestry the idividual
                                    > offers. So spirit assumes the forms of the eMasters
                                    > and temples and mocks up other experiences. At least
                                    > Spirit's desire is fulfilled. Ultimately only good can
                                    > come from this because as inner experiences increase,
                                    > doubts about the eCult do too. The discourses and
                                    > Spirit's interaction with the individual soon do not
                                    > "jive"
                                    > *Peace*
                                    > Randy
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    > > removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                  • Sharon
                                    ... Yeah, although I interpreted that dream as my first initiation and was *so* thankful I remembered it, just as the eckbooks told me to do, it became
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 21, 2001
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                                      --- In eckankartruth@y..., blatherings@h... wrote:
                                      > Whoa, Sharon, if I had had an invasive dream like you did with
                                      > Harold...whew!! But I didn't. Gee, isn't it "against spritual law" to
                                      > invade someone's spiritual territory? !! It would be _really_ hard to
                                      > get out of Eckankar with that kind of introduction.
                                      >


                                      Yeah, although I interpreted that dream as my "first initiation" and was *so* thankful I remembered it, just as the eckbooks told me to do, it became something entirely different when I looked at it with a clear mind!

                                      Yes, the cult *does* say that invasion like that is against "spiritual law", and they accuse others of it, and sell protection <g> but the fact is, that the Org and its representives are simply doing that "black magician" stuff that Twitch & Klemp warn against!

                                      It wasn't hard to get out of the cult, actually. I mean, my relationship with God/Spirit *was* true and strong, and pre-existed my cult membership. Gee, I think I've already written about this.



                                      > Now I have to tell you about the dream experience that I interpreted
                                      > as my 1st initiation. I encountered what I will refer to as a Being.
                                      > It appeared to be a man, actually someone who used to be my boss,
                                      > whom I just can't stand to this day.


                                      Hey, this is sort of funny! I had some "boss" dreams too!! Which was funny, it was about an early boss about whom I'm sort of neutral. Had to quit the job because of that chasing around the desk thing, and he was a married man.

                                      Now...isn't it sort of funny that you couldn't stand your boss, and evidently you thought he was the "mahanta"? Sounds like there was a bit of truth there, doesn't it?


                                      What was astounding was the
                                      > eyes; it's one of those concepts that you can't express in English
                                      > because it doesn't exist in physical reality...but the eyes "were"
                                      > Love. Pure, powerful Love. It was a truly amazing experience.


                                      Eyes can lie. Really...in fact, it's not unusual for phony con-artist types, or anyone lying, to look you straight in the eye and they look *so* innocent!!!

                                      Well, sure....isn't it nice really believing in "LOVE"? Think about teenage crushes, or adult chemical hormone rushes. We think they're love, don't we? Sure as heck feels good!



                                      >Since I
                                      > was 6 months into Eckankar at the time, I identified this Being as
                                      > the Mahanta. (I've never considered harold and the mahanta to be one
                                      > and the same, although I acknowledged that possibly he could attain
                                      > that state of consciousness.)


                                      Those early eckyears are something, aren't they?

                                      I had a bit of a problem connecting Harold the man/teacher with Harold the "mahanta" and "Wah Z" and "master of the universe". But, this inner "Presence" I knew and loved absolutely, well...that is quite "real" (I think) but in my cultyears I identified it as Harold/LEM/M, as the cult teaches.



                                      >I suppose a Christian would identify it
                                      > as Christ. I still don't know what/who that Being was, but the Love
                                      > was incredibly real.

                                      Well, I *did* see Jesus once, and thought it was quite odd...other cult members told me it surely was Gopal Das, and many people got them mixed up. Sorry, but I *knew* who it was.

                                      But, I experienced "Love" before the cult...with something/someone who was, well...Formless. I've written about it before, and don't feel much like typing right now.



                                      >Later study has intimated that this was actually
                                      > my higher self.


                                      Yes...because while this Presence/Being/NonBeing was not me, it *was* me. Very odd, actually. It was incredibly beautiful, though.




                                      (but...2nd initiation tells you that _you_ are the
                                      > Mahanta, so one and the same, anyway. Not Harold, ME.)
                                      >


                                      I *never* heard this one, and my 2nd initiation was way back in the 80's! Is this something new?

                                      <snipped your interesting spider-dream!>


                                      >
                                      > I guess the reason why I'm so fond of Robert Monroe's writings is
                                      > that I have had many experiences that are quite similar to his,
                                      > without the front-loading of imagining it ahead of time.


                                      I *do* want to read him one day!

                                      You know, just on TV you can find tons of various type things that show so many wonderful "experiences" that the cult classifies as "lower" or "eck but they don't know it...yet" stuff.

                                      And...I've totally blanked out here & my mind wandered off...

                                      Had a great weekend away, and my son's wedding was really beautiful!


                                      Bye for now,

                                      Sharon
                                    • Sharon
                                      ... If I recall, Mick, you were pretty young when you got in, weren t you? You have *so* much to look forward to!!!!! Seriously, the time will come when you ll
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 21, 2001
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                                        --- In eckankartruth@y..., Pharmakon11@e... wrote:
                                        > Chuck,
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for the encouraging words. Maybe someday I'll find something
                                        > worth writing about. Meantime, I'm building a life out of my own
                                        > sensibilities and vision (for the first time)...something my
                                        > involvement in eckankar postponed for many years. It's catch-up time
                                        > for now!
                                        >
                                        > Mick


                                        If I recall, Mick, you were pretty young when you got in, weren't you?

                                        You have *so* much to look forward to!!!!!

                                        Seriously, the time will come when you'll rarely think about the cult and your years in it, because you'll be having too much fun enjoying being out!

                                        Hugs,

                                        Sharon
                                      • Hawksblood2@aol.com
                                        to all victumes of Eckankar. Grow up. It was a step you needed to take. The time lost would of been lost somewhere else any way. The things Spirit brings us is
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 22, 2001
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                                          to all victumes of Eckankar. Grow up. It was a step you needed to take. The time lost would of been lost somewhere else any way. The things Spirit brings us is always for are growth if we learn to look hard enough. All things stop us from looking for truth about God. In its own way everthing outside of ourselves is a (illusion). By that I mean it takes our attention off Why we are here. We can get lost standing in a river as well as standing in a shower. If not by ever mistake we grow if we lust look. The main part is to grow in the right direction. If any one wants to complain the rest of there life must have a serious problem. Sharon. Again How bad were you heart????????? How much did you grow? Are you ready to let go of what you though was a Harable trap? Give a place for people to release there anger but you should never feed it. The more that each one of you feed into the problem the more energy you give it. I was in 22 years. I had a tatoo on my arm I had to change. I st!
                                          ill give them a B in rating for
                                          most religions never even get half that close to the truth . I stand behide or infrunt of ever thing I say by my own experience. That is why we are all here to learn for ourselfs. Love always T-Hawk
                                        • Sharon
                                          ... You re out of line, Tommy. You don t seem to get it. Paul Twitchell did *wrong* by creating his cult and victimizing people for his own personal benefit.
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 22, 2001
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                                            --- In eckankartruth@y..., Hawksblood2@a... wrote:
                                            > to all victumes of Eckankar. Grow up. It was a step you needed to take.


                                            You're out of line, Tommy.

                                            You don't seem to get it. Paul Twitchell did *wrong* by creating his
                                            cult and victimizing people for his own personal benefit. Darwin and
                                            Klemp perpetuate the wrong. Being lied to and conned is NOT a step
                                            people need to take.


                                            >The time lost would of been lost somewhere else any way.

                                            Really? I think not, Tommy.


                                            >The things Spirit brings us is always for are growth if we learn to look hard enough.

                                            I think the people killed in the Holocaust would have grown quite
                                            nicely, thank you, if they hadn't been brutally murdered. Have you
                                            read Anne Frank's diary?

                                            What about little children who are molested and raped, Tommy? You're
                                            saying this was something they needed?

                                            What about the responsibility of the CRIMINAL to NOT do bad things,
                                            Tommy?

                                            Paul Twitchell lied, and plagiarized. That's wrong. Darwin and Klemp
                                            have been covering it up, and furthering Twitch's deceptive cult. That's wrong.


                                            > All things stop us from looking for truth about God.


                                            This is meaningless new-age babble, Tommy. Think about it.


                                            >In its own way everthing outside of ourselves is a (illusion).


                                            No, it's not, Tommy. Our lives and everything in it are very
                                            real.


                                            > By that I mean it takes our attention off Why we are here.

                                            Tommy, it sounds like you're still infected with the eckanvirus.

                                            We're here to live our lives, raise our families, go to work and
                                            support ourselves, and learn and grow and have all the joys and
                                            sorrows that come along.


                                            >We can get lost standing in a river as well as standing in a shower.


                                            Well, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't get lost in either
                                            place. Especially the shower. Well...if the river's currents were
                                            strong and swept me out to sea perhaps I'd get lost, but...I wouldn't
                                            have stepped in a river like that to begin with.

                                            Gee...I just had one of them thar pesky "waking dreams"!

                                            The cult was sort of like a big raging river you can get lost in, but there were signs that lied and said it was just a gentle little trout stream and not at all dangerous.

                                            It was a dark hole of spiritual blindness, that seemed to be well-lit,
                                            but wasn't.


                                            >If not by ever mistake we grow if we lust look. The main part is to grow in the right direction.


                                            What's this supposed to mean, Tommy?


                                            >If any one wants to complain the rest of there life must have a serious problem. Sharon.

                                            If a cult continues lying and covering up, it must have a serious
                                            problem.

                                            And if people don't care enough to speak out to help others avoid
                                            being misled, well...I'd say *that* is a serious problem!


                                            >Again How bad were you heart?????????


                                            My heart was, and is, just fine.


                                            >How much did you grow?

                                            I grew because that's the nature of life, Tommy. I grew in spite
                                            of the cult, not because of it.


                                            >Are you ready to let go of what you though was a Harable trap?

                                            Tommy, you know, it's beginning to look like you're still
                                            affected by the lies and cultic mind-control.


                                            > Give a place for people to release there anger but you should never feed it.

                                            You don't get it, Tommy. You still seem to be a bit indoctrinated
                                            from your years in the cult. Former members who speak out aren't
                                            the anger-driven alien heathen pagan enemies of "the eck" that the
                                            cult says they are.


                                            > The more that each one of you feed into the problem the more energy you give it.


                                            Tommy, the "problem" is that the cult continues lying and misleading people.



                                            >I was in 22 years. I had a tatoo on my arm I had to change.

                                            Sounds like there are some things you haven't changed, Tommy.

                                            Twenty-two years is a long time. Some people take a long time to
                                            get over it, and get all the eckancrap out of their heads.


                                            >I still give them a B in rating for
                                            > most religions never even get half that close to the truth .


                                            <giggle> Tommy, I think you'd be the kind of professor that kids
                                            take when they want an easy A! Word gets around, you know!

                                            I think perhaps you're forgetting that eckankar is NOT a legitimate
                                            religion. It's a cult that Paul Twitchell started, taking bits &
                                            pieces from all over --- from EXISTING religions. So...how can you
                                            say that the sources of the cult don't get half as close to truth
                                            when there is *nothing* new at all in it? It's all STOLEN!


                                            > I stand behide or infrunt of ever thing I say by my own experience.

                                            When I was in the cult, my experience was colored by the cult and
                                            I was led to interpret things for the cult's benefit, not my own.

                                            So...I understand why you're saying this. You have 22 years of
                                            cultic indoctrination to get over.


                                            >That is why we are all here to learn for ourselfs.

                                            Yet, you begin your post by being insulting?

                                            It was ECKANKAR who lied, Tommy. Not former members.

                                            Now, if you're in bed sleeping peacefully tonight, and someone should break in and rob you, and perhaps hold a gun to your head, well...are
                                            you going to understand that Spirit sent you this experience for a very good reason? Are you going to be thankful for it? If the burglar doesn't blow your brains out, are you going to tell him you love him and send him on his way to rob and threaten others, because
                                            he's just doing God's will?

                                            Tonight I will respond to your "karma" comments. Sorry I haven't had
                                            time before.

                                            Now...you were out of line here, Tommy. I guess I'm going to have to
                                            be more careful about moderating here, and not take the "moderation required" setting off as easily as I have been.

                                            The purpose of this forum is NOT to have people who were abused and manipulated insulted and abused further, although I sincerely hope everyone will understand that you too were a victim, you just haven't
                                            gotten it out of your system yet. And that's sad.

                                            I think perhaps it might be helpful if you do a bit of research on cults and how they work. If you saw how many of these silly little
                                            "highest paths" and "Masters of the Universe" are out there, deceiving people, well...I think it would put eckancult into perspective for you. And you might also want to do a bit of research on the very
                                            common "symptoms" of leaving a cult, or any type abusive relationship.

                                            Well...I have to run.

                                            Have a nice day, everyone!

                                            Hugs,

                                            Sharon






                                            Love always T-Hawk
                                          • Hawksblood2@aol.com
                                            Well. This will be the last time I write. Most want to stay in there own Illusion world. I never said Rape or being mistreated is right. Nor will I ever say
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 23, 2001
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                                              Well. This will be the last time I write. Most want to stay in there own Illusion world. I never said Rape or being mistreated is right. Nor will I ever say homeless children should be homeless. I am saying we make many wrong mistakes because we are not awear at the time. We learn by our misstakes sometimes. All reliogions give us fase teaching if you care to look. Most chistian paths know little about the worlds after death. They give you false beliefs. You are going to Heaven. Really By whos say so? What is in Heaven? What do you do there ask any Preacher of the Christian religion. Some know a little more of the truth but they are not allowed to teach it. Jesus did. The same when he was Alive here his followers did not understand him. Like Jesus said any of you that have the perfect religion can throw the first rock. Lets see how many of you will throw the next rock.It will probable be all of you. My path in this life is to work with people ready to leave this world to go ba!
                                              ck to God. All men have a Ego pr
                                              oblem that they have to learn to control but usualy never do. That is why A rapist can get out of jail in a month. Men can get the children away from the mother if they have money. YES HAROLD is going to pay for his actions. Darwin already did. Just so you all can know there are Masters that Eckankar has taken as there own, But you can meet them any time and talk to them yourself. You can talk to you angels too. If any are inclined and able yet. I will be a said day for all who do not know about the world they are going to go when they leave this world. So much in the paths that yous condemm are truths the same as there are many lies. I will be leaving this page for it is not growing now do I think any one in it wants to grow either. Read all you want for truth is inside the heart and very little elsewhere.The problem which many of you feel to recognize is that spirit is every where in every body you just have to look. No i am not saying a rapist or child abuser. There be a d!
                                              ay in all your lives you wil say
                                              Where am I? Is this the right path. Did I learn all there is that I was surpose to know? I usta look at all the falts but that get to time consumming and leaves no time to learn. Love to all who read this. It was half fun. Tommy Hawksblood
                                            • Hawksblood2@aol.com
                                              Second note. Eckankar is a legal religion. Just the same as christian religions are. Oh who makes a religion a real religion. It is the people that follow it.
                                              Message 22 of 22 , May 23, 2001
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                                                Second note. Eckankar is a legal religion. Just the same as christian religions are. Oh who makes a religion a real religion. It is the people that follow it. The same as who gives a person a prist his power. The same as in Salem Witchhunt. Who gave them the power over them and is not witchcraft a religion now. Are you going after all the Black magicians out there that say they are and still teach millions of children. You are the affect of Eckankar. The Pope stands behind his robe and who is he too have that power. Just a person of EGO that unawear people give there power over to him. Just like the Pesident who we give all our power over to guess what I did not mention GOD who is the only one anyone should give there power and life too. Yes any one can write Hawksblood2@... Good or Bad but please remove from this mailing for I read enough goody two shoe stories, and heard enough junk about Eck that I knew long ago. Yes there are priest out there that rape and still go !
                                                on preaching why????? We let the
                                                m. Well somebody does. Last letter Tommy
                                                PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE MAILING
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