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3rd Initiation Papers - 2nd time

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  • weatherby_240
    I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even though I m out. Their soul traveling isn t connecting cause if it was they would know it is a
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 4, 2003
      I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even though
      I'm out. Their soul traveling isn't connecting cause if it was they
      would know it is a waste of time. However, my wife got her offer for
      the 4th initiation and is going to Chanhassen to get it.

      I just don't get it.. seems like a denial thing as I see all the
      evidence of what it is all about. I considered writing to inform
      them I'm out, but that may bring more "karma" that it is worth too.
    • Paul Olson
      I remember getting the pink slip for my 6th initiation back in 1996 or so. At the time, I was very disinterested in eckankar and had little belief left. I
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 4, 2003
        I remember getting the pink slip for my 6th initiation back in 1996 or so.
        At the time, I was very disinterested in eckankar and had little belief
        left.

        I recall the initiator reading some stranger by the river during the
        ceremony and I was actually bored during the ceremony....I started quoting
        the text back to her....She thought and said "Oh My, you know it by heart?",
        "You are truly a dedicated eckist!"....I just smiled and thought, "If you
        only knew". I quoted the passage because I had heard the whole thing so
        many times that the redundancy was boring and had almost no meaning to
        me....

        That was another factor in my leaving eckankar. It was stale.

        Harolds books were just re-edited versions of his seminar talks which were
        mostly dog and cat stories, and tales sent to him by his initiates in their
        initiate reports.....The guy seldom had an original thought and when he did,
        it was normally some inane thing like the spiritual significance of his
        toilet backing up (caused by him stuffing initiate reports down it or
        something like that).....

        I was so bored by eckankar by that time. There I was, a "leader" in
        eckankar, and all I saw around me were sheep following worn out dogma's and
        spouting endless eck platitudes that seldom fit the occasion at hand. I saw
        that my fellow leaders were in a sleep like state as well and that the newer
        initiates were constantly being "corrected" in their thinking about
        spiritual issues.....It was like slowly hypnotizing people over a period of
        years into being little spiritual clones......"Don't think this or that!"
        "Try to see it from this angle!" etc. etc....

        It was 2 more years until I finally left eckankar in my mind and
        permanently.

        I know it was spiritually dishonest of me to stay around as long as I did
        but in all honesty, I was scared to go and would miss all my friends and the
        social perks of eckankar.....Honesty finally won out though and today, I am
        only sorry that I didn't leave back in 1980 or so when I first heard about
        all of eckankars foibles.

        Have a Great 4th of July to you Americans and a great day to everyone else
        too!

        Sword


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "weatherby_240" <95yukon@...>
        To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:36 AM
        Subject: [eckankartruth] 3rd Initiation Papers - 2nd time


        > I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even though
        > I'm out. Their soul traveling isn't connecting cause if it was they
        > would know it is a waste of time. However, my wife got her offer for
        > the 4th initiation and is going to Chanhassen to get it.
        >
        > I just don't get it.. seems like a denial thing as I see all the
        > evidence of what it is all about. I considered writing to inform
        > them I'm out, but that may bring more "karma" that it is worth too.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • pato
        Maybe, you are more aware spiritually? maybe you have realised that the path to God is a lone one and that your spiritual developement now requires individual
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 5, 2003
          Maybe, you are more aware spiritually? maybe you have realised that the path to God is a lone one and that your spiritual developement now requires individual progress.Maybe you are more developed than a 3rd initiate. Maybe you have done it all before in a previous life. One thing I am sure of is each individual must find there own level and be comfortable with it and only then will they be in harmony with themselves and their enviroment, irrespective of their religion or cult. Seeing the good or God in people and things is a big step forward for all of us, I know, it`s something easier said than done. Respecting other peoples opinion and enhanceing their developement is even harder! My philosophy is a wise man can always learn from a fool and on understanding that i find out their are no fools!!
          I think Harold klemp was trying to practicalise his teaching and bring it more down to earth for the ordinary man.Maybe the advancement is for the individual with his or her inner self. Maybe God is creative and to be Godlike one must be too, or maybe the next phase is just too hard to take.One thing I am sure, we are all still evolving and learning from our experiences in life,with or without Eckankar as long as we are open.
          At times in life you learn more away from something than in it and i`m sure you could teach me alot.Have a nice journey friend. May i ask you one last question.Was there anything in Eckankar that you agreed with, any personal experience that you had that verified any part of their teachings.Anything at all that you gained while you were an eckist throughout that entire period? personal satisfaction,being content or happy for a period of time or even learning to be brave enough to go it alone? If the answer is Yes then believe me it seems worth it to me, If the answer is No, then you have not lost anything either!
          Bye friend, but I would love to hear from you again, you seem honest mature and intelligent. I learnt alot from what you wrote. Its nice to hear two sides of the story.
          a reader
          Paul Olson <broker84@...> wrote:
          I remember getting the pink slip for my 6th initiation back in 1996 or so.
          At the time, I was very disinterested in eckankar and had little belief
          left.

          I recall the initiator reading some stranger by the river during the
          ceremony and I was actually bored during the ceremony....I started quoting
          the text back to her....She thought and said "Oh My, you know it by heart?",
          "You are truly a dedicated eckist!"....I just smiled and thought, "If you
          only knew". I quoted the passage because I had heard the whole thing so
          many times that the redundancy was boring and had almost no meaning to
          me....

          That was another factor in my leaving eckankar. It was stale.

          Harolds books were just re-edited versions of his seminar talks which were
          mostly dog and cat stories, and tales sent to him by his initiates in their
          initiate reports.....The guy seldom had an original thought and when he did,
          it was normally some inane thing like the spiritual significance of his
          toilet backing up (caused by him stuffing initiate reports down it or
          something like that).....

          I was so bored by eckankar by that time. There I was, a "leader" in
          eckankar, and all I saw around me were sheep following worn out dogma's and
          spouting endless eck platitudes that seldom fit the occasion at hand. I saw
          that my fellow leaders were in a sleep like state as well and that the newer
          initiates were constantly being "corrected" in their thinking about
          spiritual issues.....It was like slowly hypnotizing people over a period of
          years into being little spiritual clones......"Don't think this or that!"
          "Try to see it from this angle!" etc. etc....

          It was 2 more years until I finally left eckankar in my mind and
          permanently.

          I know it was spiritually dishonest of me to stay around as long as I did
          but in all honesty, I was scared to go and would miss all my friends and the
          social perks of eckankar.....Honesty finally won out though and today, I am
          only sorry that I didn't leave back in 1980 or so when I first heard about
          all of eckankars foibles.

          Have a Great 4th of July to you Americans and a great day to everyone else
          too!

          Sword


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "weatherby_240" <95yukon@...>
          To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:36 AM
          Subject: [eckankartruth] 3rd Initiation Papers - 2nd time


          > I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even though
          > I'm out. Their soul traveling isn't connecting cause if it was they
          > would know it is a waste of time. However, my wife got her offer for
          > the 4th initiation and is going to Chanhassen to get it.
          >
          > I just don't get it.. seems like a denial thing as I see all the
          > evidence of what it is all about. I considered writing to inform
          > them I'm out, but that may bring more "karma" that it is worth too.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >



          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          ---------------------------------
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • harveydodds
          ... though ... they ... for ... Maybe its like some of those subscriptions to magazines. One I stopped subscribing to kept sending me magazines even though it
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 6, 2003
            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240" <95yukon@e...>
            wrote:
            > I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even
            though
            > I'm out. Their soul traveling isn't connecting cause if it was
            they
            > would know it is a waste of time. However, my wife got her offer
            for
            > the 4th initiation and is going to Chanhassen to get it.
            >
            > I just don't get it.. seems like a denial thing as I see all the
            > evidence of what it is all about. I considered writing to inform
            > them I'm out, but that may bring more "karma" that it is worth too.



            Maybe its like some of those subscriptions to magazines. One I
            stopped subscribing to kept sending me magazines even though it
            had expired and final offers and final final offers. So THIS
            IS YOUR LAST CHANCE AND OUR FINAL OFFER TO CONTINUE IN THE DIVINE
            LIGHT AND SOUND OF GOD. Responses to these last minute mailings
            must be pretty good. In your families case it generated a
            50% response rate. ACT NOW before oblivion sets in. Need I add
            the special "gift" they wish to give you has no value ...
          • harveydodds
            ... though ... they ... for ... Maybe its like some of those subscriptions to magazines. One I stopped subscribing to kept sending me magazines even though it
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 6, 2003
              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "weatherby_240" <95yukon@e...>
              wrote:
              > I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even
              though
              > I'm out. Their soul traveling isn't connecting cause if it was
              they
              > would know it is a waste of time. However, my wife got her offer
              for
              > the 4th initiation and is going to Chanhassen to get it.
              >
              > I just don't get it.. seems like a denial thing as I see all the
              > evidence of what it is all about. I considered writing to inform
              > them I'm out, but that may bring more "karma" that it is worth too.



              Maybe its like some of those subscriptions to magazines. One I
              stopped subscribing to kept sending me magazines even though it
              had expired and final offers and final final offers. So THIS
              IS YOUR LAST CHANCE AND OUR FINAL OFFER TO CONTINUE IN THE DIVINE
              LIGHT AND SOUND OF GOD. Responses to these last minute mailings
              must be pretty good. In your families case it generated a
              50% response rate. ACT NOW before oblivion sets in. Need I add
              the special "gift" they wish to give you has no value ...
            • Paul Olson
              Oh jeepers. I don t think I could disagree more with this post below. So, as not to be insulting, I ll keep my response short. 1. More aware spiritually
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 6, 2003
                Oh jeepers. I don't think I could disagree more with this post below. So,
                as not to be insulting, I'll keep my response short.

                1. More aware spiritually than what? And who are you or anyone else for
                that matter, who considers themselves able or qualified to place an
                individuals inner personal growth on some kind of illusory yardstick?

                2. Harold Klemp is NOT trying to bring his lofty teachings down to a common
                level. He is trying to continue to make a buck by selling plagiarized
                materials and watered down teachings from other pathways under the brand
                name of eckankar. Eckankar is simply bullshit. Those who follow it are
                simply hoping it will all work out in the end for themselves rather than
                take the true steps towards growth which require dumping crutches like
                eckankar and getting on with PERSONAL truth and experience.

                3. Where is it written that we need to respect other peoples opinions? I
                disagree with that book too! I do not respect the opinions of Liars or
                people who are asleep and do not know it. Neither should you.

                4. Another meaningless eck platitude, "We must find out own level"....More
                crap. You are, who and what, you are. Deal with it...or better yet, improve
                it, but don't compare it to me or any other person as you are not qualified
                and neither am I.

                5. Its not your job nor my job to "enhance" anyone else's development.
                This is a nice way of saying you feel that someone needs work to fit your
                image of what they should be.....and you have just the cure? Get off that
                horse before it dumps you in the dirt and kicks your behind.

                6. I have news for you. Whether you think someone is "Open" or not, they
                are growing. Life doesn't go backwards but it can stagnate....check out
                eckankars books for examples of stagnation.....when was the last time a
                supposed eck master actually wrote something original?

                7. It is good to hear 2 sides of any story and in my opinion, it is
                imperative before I would dedicate any time to eckankar. I was a member for
                over 28 years and what I really got out of it was a since of having wasted
                many years of my life in an illusion. A lie. As to finding the benefit of
                those years...I did live the time, walk the walk, talk the talk, got a lot
                of initiations, met a lot of temporary friends.

                All in all, definitely NOT worth the time and energy spent. I could have
                done a lot more with my life had I not become enmeshed in eckankar.
                Unfortunately, I am unable to show anyone else this truth. It took me
                years to discover it myself. But I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if you
                ask, a whole hell of a lot of people, thousands in fact, will agree with me
                on that one. A bunch of them hang out at this newsgroup in fact.

                In closing, I would advise that you dump the eck platitudes and look in a
                mirror. If you see a good little eckist, beware....because your whole world
                might just be a self inflicted lie and if you see that and don't respond,
                you are just continuing the personal lie, and holding your self
                back.....perhaps.

                Have a nice evening.

                Sword

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "pato" <patouz27@...>
                To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2003 1:55 AM
                Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] 3rd Initiation Papers - 2nd time


                Maybe, you are more aware spiritually? maybe you have realised that the path
                to God is a lone one and that your spiritual developement now requires
                individual progress.Maybe you are more developed than a 3rd initiate. Maybe
                you have done it all before in a previous life. One thing I am sure of is
                each individual must find there own level and be comfortable with it and
                only then will they be in harmony with themselves and their enviroment,
                irrespective of their religion or cult. Seeing the good or God in people and
                things is a big step forward for all of us, I know, it`s something easier
                said than done. Respecting other peoples opinion and enhanceing their
                developement is even harder! My philosophy is a wise man can always learn
                from a fool and on understanding that i find out their are no fools!!
                I think Harold klemp was trying to practicalise his teaching and bring it
                more down to earth for the ordinary man.Maybe the advancement is for the
                individual with his or her inner self. Maybe God is creative and to be
                Godlike one must be too, or maybe the next phase is just too hard to
                take.One thing I am sure, we are all still evolving and learning from our
                experiences in life,with or without Eckankar as long as we are open.
                At times in life you learn more away from something than in it and i`m
                sure you could teach me alot.Have a nice journey friend. May i ask you one
                last question.Was there anything in Eckankar that you agreed with, any
                personal experience that you had that verified any part of their
                teachings.Anything at all that you gained while you were an eckist
                throughout that entire period? personal satisfaction,being content or happy
                for a period of time or even learning to be brave enough to go it alone? If
                the answer is Yes then believe me it seems worth it to me, If the answer is
                No, then you have not lost anything either!
                Bye friend, but I would love to hear from you again, you seem honest
                mature and intelligent. I learnt alot from what you wrote. Its nice to hear
                two sides of the story.
                a reader
                Paul Olson <broker84@...> wrote:
                I remember getting the pink slip for my 6th initiation back in 1996 or so.
                At the time, I was very disinterested in eckankar and had little belief
                left.

                I recall the initiator reading some stranger by the river during the
                ceremony and I was actually bored during the ceremony....I started quoting
                the text back to her....She thought and said "Oh My, you know it by heart?",
                "You are truly a dedicated eckist!"....I just smiled and thought, "If you
                only knew". I quoted the passage because I had heard the whole thing so
                many times that the redundancy was boring and had almost no meaning to
                me....

                That was another factor in my leaving eckankar. It was stale.

                Harolds books were just re-edited versions of his seminar talks which were
                mostly dog and cat stories, and tales sent to him by his initiates in their
                initiate reports.....The guy seldom had an original thought and when he did,
                it was normally some inane thing like the spiritual significance of his
                toilet backing up (caused by him stuffing initiate reports down it or
                something like that).....

                I was so bored by eckankar by that time. There I was, a "leader" in
                eckankar, and all I saw around me were sheep following worn out dogma's and
                spouting endless eck platitudes that seldom fit the occasion at hand. I saw
                that my fellow leaders were in a sleep like state as well and that the newer
                initiates were constantly being "corrected" in their thinking about
                spiritual issues.....It was like slowly hypnotizing people over a period of
                years into being little spiritual clones......"Don't think this or that!"
                "Try to see it from this angle!" etc. etc....

                It was 2 more years until I finally left eckankar in my mind and
                permanently.

                I know it was spiritually dishonest of me to stay around as long as I did
                but in all honesty, I was scared to go and would miss all my friends and the
                social perks of eckankar.....Honesty finally won out though and today, I am
                only sorry that I didn't leave back in 1980 or so when I first heard about
                all of eckankars foibles.

                Have a Great 4th of July to you Americans and a great day to everyone else
                too!

                Sword


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "weatherby_240" <95yukon@...>
                To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:36 AM
                Subject: [eckankartruth] 3rd Initiation Papers - 2nd time


                > I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even though
                > I'm out. Their soul traveling isn't connecting cause if it was they
                > would know it is a waste of time. However, my wife got her offer for
                > the 4th initiation and is going to Chanhassen to get it.
                >
                > I just don't get it.. seems like a denial thing as I see all the
                > evidence of what it is all about. I considered writing to inform
                > them I'm out, but that may bring more "karma" that it is worth too.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >



                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                ---------------------------------
                Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
                Yahoo!Messenger

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • swallow472000
                ... the path to God is a lone one and that your spiritual developement now requires individual progress.Maybe you are more developed than a 3rd initiate. Maybe
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 7, 2003
                  --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, pato <patouz27@y...> wrote:
                  > Maybe, you are more aware spiritually? maybe you have realised that
                  the path to God is a lone one and that your spiritual developement
                  now requires individual progress.Maybe you are more developed than a
                  3rd initiate. Maybe you have done it all before in a previous life.
                  One thing I am sure of is each individual must find there own level
                  and be comfortable with it and only then will they be in harmony with
                  themselves and their enviroment, irrespective of their religion or
                  cult. Seeing the good or God in people and things is a big step
                  forward for all of us, I know, it`s something easier said than done.
                  Respecting other peoples opinion and enhanceing their developement is
                  even harder! My philosophy is a wise man can always learn from a fool
                  and on understanding that i find out their are no fools!!
                  > I think Harold klemp was trying to practicalise his teaching and
                  bring it more down to earth for the ordinary man.Maybe the
                  advancement is for the individual with his or her inner self. Maybe
                  God is creative and to be Godlike one must be too, or maybe the next
                  phase is just too hard to take.One thing I am sure, we are all still
                  evolving and learning from our experiences in life,with or without
                  Eckankar as long as we are open.
                  > At times in life you learn more away from something than in it
                  and i`m sure you could teach me alot.Have a nice journey friend. May
                  i ask you one last question.Was there anything in Eckankar that you
                  agreed with, any personal experience that you had that verified any
                  part of their teachings.Anything at all that you gained while you
                  were an eckist throughout that entire period? personal
                  satisfaction,being content or happy for a period of time or even
                  learning to be brave enough to go it alone? If the answer is Yes then
                  believe me it seems worth it to me, If the answer is No, then you
                  have not lost anything either!
                  > Bye friend, but I would love to hear from you again, you seem
                  honest mature and intelligent. I learnt alot from what you wrote. Its
                  nice to hear two sides of the
                  story.




                  Pato wrote "I think Harold Klemp was trying to practiclise his
                  teaching and bring it more down to earth."...Yeah you cant get more
                  down to earth than sheep droppings. I think that H Klemp is trying
                  to put distance between himself and a mine field he helped to
                  plant...he doesnt want no plagiar sharpnel up his ass...thats why he
                  has all but disapeared...he's dug in head down and fingers in his
                  ears.
                  Yeah I for one gained an insight from ekar...Its so easy to
                  rip-off trusting and gulible people if you have the gaul and dont
                  mind being a scumbag. jimmi
                  > a reader
                  > Paul Olson <broker84@c...> wrote:
                  > I remember getting the pink slip for my 6th initiation back in
                  1996 or so.
                  > At the time, I was very disinterested in eckankar and had little
                  belief
                  > left.
                  >
                  > I recall the initiator reading some stranger by the river during the
                  > ceremony and I was actually bored during the ceremony....I started
                  quoting
                  > the text back to her....She thought and said "Oh My, you know it by
                  heart?",
                  > "You are truly a dedicated eckist!"....I just smiled and
                  thought, "If you
                  > only knew". I quoted the passage because I had heard the whole
                  thing so
                  > many times that the redundancy was boring and had almost no meaning
                  to
                  > me....
                  >
                  > That was another factor in my leaving eckankar. It was stale.
                  >
                  > Harolds books were just re-edited versions of his seminar talks
                  which were
                  > mostly dog and cat stories, and tales sent to him by his initiates
                  in their
                  > initiate reports.....The guy seldom had an original thought and
                  when he did,
                  > it was normally some inane thing like the spiritual significance of
                  his
                  > toilet backing up (caused by him stuffing initiate reports down it
                  or
                  > something like that).....
                  >
                  > I was so bored by eckankar by that time. There I was, a "leader" in
                  > eckankar, and all I saw around me were sheep following worn out
                  dogma's and
                  > spouting endless eck platitudes that seldom fit the occasion at
                  hand. I saw
                  > that my fellow leaders were in a sleep like state as well and that
                  the newer
                  > initiates were constantly being "corrected" in their thinking about
                  > spiritual issues.....It was like slowly hypnotizing people over a
                  period of
                  > years into being little spiritual clones......"Don't think this or
                  that!"
                  > "Try to see it from this angle!" etc. etc....
                  >
                  > It was 2 more years until I finally left eckankar in my mind and
                  > permanently.
                  >
                  > I know it was spiritually dishonest of me to stay around as long as
                  I did
                  > but in all honesty, I was scared to go and would miss all my
                  friends and the
                  > social perks of eckankar.....Honesty finally won out though and
                  today, I am
                  > only sorry that I didn't leave back in 1980 or so when I first
                  heard about
                  > all of eckankars foibles.
                  >
                  > Have a Great 4th of July to you Americans and a great day to
                  everyone else
                  > too!
                  >
                  > Sword
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "weatherby_240" <95yukon@e...>
                  > To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:36 AM
                  > Subject: [eckankartruth] 3rd Initiation Papers - 2nd time
                  >
                  >
                  > > I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even
                  though
                  > > I'm out. Their soul traveling isn't connecting cause if it was
                  they
                  > > would know it is a waste of time. However, my wife got her offer
                  for
                  > > the 4th initiation and is going to Chanhassen to get it.
                  > >
                  > > I just don't get it.. seems like a denial thing as I see all the
                  > > evidence of what it is all about. I considered writing to inform
                  > > them I'm out, but that may bring more "karma" that it is worth
                  too.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
                  Messenger
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sharon
                  Paul & Jimmi - thanks for responding to that post! I let it sit for a couple of days, I was busy, didn t feel like dealing with it. When I read it, I thought
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 7, 2003
                    Paul & Jimmi - thanks for responding to that post! I let it sit for a
                    couple of days, I was busy, didn't feel like dealing with it. When I
                    read it, I thought good grief, am I nuts or is this pure poppycock, a
                    perfect example of cultic thinking, trying to find all sorts of wacky
                    rationalizations instead of just looking at the plain and simple truth
                    that's written in plain black & white.




                    I thought about writing to "pato" privately, but didn't feel like it.




                    So - I apologize if anyone was exceptionally offended or upset by this
                    response, because reading stuff like that can get a bit "old", even
                    frustrating - and it's just tiring dealing with the cultic thinking on
                    an individual level. And you know, I often wonder why, in spite of
                    all the cultic bleating about respecting others' space, etc., so many
                    of them try to post here, one way or another?




                    Sometimes I'm just not in the mood for dragging out my Detractor Rod
                    of Power & Censorship. <gg>




                    Isn't it interesting, though, that our personal bullshit detectors
                    keep getting better & better?




                    The sad thing is, Pato is sincere. And it seems to me that a mind
                    that recognizes things that aren't in line with their cultic thinking,
                    to the point where they can come up with "the usual" - well, it shows
                    at least that on some level, *something* is registering, and their
                    "real" non-cult Self is trying to break through.




                    Hugs,




                    Sharon
                  • Paul Olson
                    Sharon, Personally, I tend to think that posts like that should be allowed. When we are in eckankars little womb, we are so sheltered from divergent
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 7, 2003
                      Sharon,

                      Personally, I tend to think that posts like that should be allowed.

                      When we are in eckankars little womb, we are so sheltered from divergent
                      viewpoints. We get so closed up (unknowingly) that we tend to see any
                      viewpoint that is not eckankars, as being automatically false.

                      When someone like PATO posts, they will get an answer from an ex-eckist who
                      probably has a lot more experience than the poster has and the cold cloth on
                      the face approach can help folks.

                      I personally don't want to change anyone's thinking, but I will respond when
                      someone feeds me patronizing bullshit. Especially when I detect that they
                      actually believe this stuff!

                      We should all drop our niceties sometimes and call bullshit, bullshit.
                      Often the shit slinger doesn't know what they are actually saying and it can
                      be an eye opener to have someone lay it out in the open.

                      My response to Pato might have been a bit too severe but It just rankled me
                      so much to hear this person parroting the eck company line, like I HAD DONE
                      for so many years, not knowing how wrong I was!

                      I wish someone had taken me out to the spiritual tool shed for a good lickin
                      back then! It might have helped me face the sad reality of eckankar sooner.

                      Sword
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Sharon" <brighttigress@...>
                      To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:20 AM
                      Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: 3rd Initiation Papers - 2nd time


                      > Paul & Jimmi - thanks for responding to that post! I let it sit for a
                      > couple of days, I was busy, didn't feel like dealing with it. When I
                      > read it, I thought good grief, am I nuts or is this pure poppycock, a
                      > perfect example of cultic thinking, trying to find all sorts of wacky
                      > rationalizations instead of just looking at the plain and simple truth
                      > that's written in plain black & white.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I thought about writing to "pato" privately, but didn't feel like it.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > So - I apologize if anyone was exceptionally offended or upset by this
                      > response, because reading stuff like that can get a bit "old", even
                      > frustrating - and it's just tiring dealing with the cultic thinking on
                      > an individual level. And you know, I often wonder why, in spite of
                      > all the cultic bleating about respecting others' space, etc., so many
                      > of them try to post here, one way or another?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sometimes I'm just not in the mood for dragging out my Detractor Rod
                      > of Power & Censorship. <gg>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Isn't it interesting, though, that our personal bullshit detectors
                      > keep getting better & better?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The sad thing is, Pato is sincere. And it seems to me that a mind
                      > that recognizes things that aren't in line with their cultic thinking,
                      > to the point where they can come up with "the usual" - well, it shows
                      > at least that on some level, *something* is registering, and their
                      > "real" non-cult Self is trying to break through.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hugs,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sharon
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Sharon
                      ... Well, I understand, and I ve thought about this many times since I started ET. But the thing is, the reason I started this was to have a place for former
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 8, 2003
                        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <broker84@c...>
                        wrote:


                        > Sharon,


                        >


                        > Personally, I tend to think that posts like that should be allowed.


                        >






                        Well, I understand, and I've thought about this many times since I
                        started ET. But the thing is, the reason I started this was to have a
                        place for former members to post without the crap that goes on at
                        a.r.e., and also for other interested parties to see "our" side
                        without having to wade thru a bunch of eckancrap. They can go to the
                        ecklists for that, or all the official and "unofficial" cult
                        missionary sites.










                        > When we are in eckankars little womb, we are so sheltered from
                        divergent


                        > viewpoints. We get so closed up (unknowingly) that we tend to see
                        any


                        > viewpoint that is not eckankars, as being automatically false.


                        >




                        Well, I didn't necessarily think anything not-eck was "false" - let's
                        face it, plagiarism is plagiarism. But, I used to wear myself out
                        rationalizing. <ggg> Somehow, I could find a way to tack the eck
                        label on just about anything, even if that label was "lower". <ggg>
                        You know, that "teaching" about how "the eck" reveals itself gradually
                        according to what people could handle. <ggg> And those poor esques
                        who weren't ready, well, they "meant" well - they just needed a few
                        more incarnations. <ggg>








                        > When someone like PATO posts, they will get an answer from an
                        ex-eckist who


                        > probably has a lot more experience than the poster has and the cold
                        cloth on


                        > the face approach can help folks.


                        >




                        True, but I feel that's what a.r.e. is for. And you know, many times
                        I've seen things posted here that I would have liked to see discussed
                        more, but people don't seem to really respond to a lot of things here,
                        which is okay I guess. I don't always feel like responding. I get
                        tired of all this, you know? Especially when it comes to "talking" to
                        current members who are simply bleating all that stuff I've already
                        been through, from both sides of the fence.








                        > I personally don't want to change anyone's thinking,




                        Me neither - I'm just glad to see there's more "anti-eck" information
                        on the internet than there was when I first arrived here, and I figure
                        there's plenty so that people can read about both sides and make up
                        their own minds. I don't necessarily feel like talking about it.
                        I've been doing that since the end of 1998.




                        See, another thing I thought ET would be wonderful for was just a lot
                        of former members getting to know each other. I've had so many
                        incredibly great conversations & gotten to know so many really great
                        people over the years, and so often I'd think wow, this private
                        conversation is *so* great I wanted to share it with more people -
                        which could make it even greater!! Sort of like, did you ever have
                        some really good friends in "real" life who you knew would really
                        enjoy each other, so you throw a party so everyone could meet everyone
                        else?




                        Well...ET's not exactly working out as well as I'd dreamed, but it's
                        okay.




                        And, to be honest, over the years I just have less and less time to
                        spend on this privately, plus it gets to the point where "broken
                        record syndrome" kicks in to the point where I just blank out and
                        can't exactly do it anymore.




                        It's sort of like motherhood. Sure, I love & adore children at *all*
                        stages but kids are always changing, as is our personal "mothering"
                        technique. I'd probably go nuts as a teacher because doing the same
                        thing with the same age-group year after year would get boring.




                        Well, that's not exactly a good example, I guess. I realize it's
                        "old" for me, but new for new people who've just gotten on the
                        internet. And I know how much other former members helped me when I
                        got out & was going through those rough times - even those who were
                        writing to me for "help", well, helping them sort of helped me just as
                        much, too.




                        For example, I'm thinking of one former member who just sort of popped
                        up in my email back in 1998, and just started sending me little
                        "distractions" because that was a very intense time for me - and
                        getting my mind off it, helped incredibly. For example, I remember
                        this person send me the link for artwork by this artist whose name I
                        forget right now, damn!!!! Beautiful angel & other stuff, not to
                        mention interesting stories of the artist's life & philosophy, etc.
                        It was an incredibly beautiful & nurturing "escape" for me, and darn,
                        I just went to get the URL & post it here, but the site is gone!!!!
                        My memory for names really sucks sometimes.




                        And...Jan Groenveld put me on her mailing list, and I got great jokes
                        & informative articles on all sorts of things relating to the
                        cult-exiting experience. That's another thing I wanted to do here.
                        Be nurturing & supportive, and save the ranting raving bitch-slap
                        stuff for a.r.e.! <gggg> Because yes, I agree that kind of thing
                        helps, too.






                        but I will respond when


                        > someone feeds me patronizing bullshit. Especially when I detect
                        that they


                        > actually believe this stuff!


                        >




                        Well, I know what you mean here - but there's a difference between the
                        "eckthugs" and innocent true-believers. If they see the stuff and
                        think about it, it's their decision. I generally don't feel like
                        discussing it with individuals, except for when I do it publicly, like
                        at a.r.e., it's more like playing a part in a play for a big audience.
                        We all have our roles. Let the audience make up their own minds. It
                        may often seem like I'm having a personal discussion or something, but
                        at a.r.e., it's more like just taking advantage of an opportunity to
                        make my point for others, not necessarily the person I'm "talking" to.






                        > We should all drop our niceties sometimes and call bullshit,
                        bullshit.


                        > Often the shit slinger doesn't know what they are actually saying
                        and it can


                        > be an eye opener to have someone lay it out in the open.


                        >




                        Sure, that's how it worked for me at a.r.e.!! The eckthugs *still*
                        don't realize they're slitting their own throats, and that someone who
                        *genuinely* loves God and seeks Truth will see them for what they
                        truly are, and see past the lies the cult teaches about former
                        members, and why they leave.









                        > My response to Pato might have been a bit too severe but It just
                        rankled me


                        > so much to hear this person parroting the eck company line, like I
                        HAD DONE


                        > for so many years, not knowing how wrong I was!


                        >




                        <giggle> I thought you were nice, not at all severe, and I greatly
                        appreciate your responding so wonderfully so that I didn't have to do
                        it. I might have ended up saying something like "Fuck off, you
                        brainwashed eckanborg." <ggg>




                        That's another thing - I've been indulging my inner cranky menopausal
                        bitch lately. <ggg>








                        > I wish someone had taken me out to the spiritual tool shed for a
                        good lickin


                        > back then! It might have helped me face the sad reality of eckankar
                        sooner.


                        >




                        True!! But on the other hand, that approach often makes the cult
                        member cling tighter to the cult. Sort of like a good friend I had
                        shortly after my 2nd initiation - well, he knew what I was involved
                        with, but although we had many great "spiritual" discussions he never
                        said *anything* against the cult - of course, that was before the
                        internet. Perhaps if he had the information that's available now, he
                        would have known what information to give me, so I could decide for
                        myself - when I got out, I asked him why he never said anything, and
                        he said I was so convinced by my "experiences". I understand that,
                        but now he understands that there's sort of a "middle ground" for
                        concerned friends & family - it's not good to either keep your mouth
                        shut totally *or* to hire a deprogrammer to kidnap & abuse them in a
                        motel room for three days, or whatever.






                        Anyway, I've decided that I want to keep ET eck-free. And seriously,
                        I *do* wonder why, in spite of the cult's constant bleating about
                        "respecting others' space", so many of them get so goddam annoying and
                        either write to me personally trying to "save" me or threatening me in
                        various ways, or try to post here. Hey, I "belong" to some public
                        eckgroups - for example, when I joined "goldenhearts" it was simply to
                        keep "up to date" on what the eckies were talking about, and would you
                        believe the moderator wrote to me, to inform me that anti-eck posts
                        weren't allowed? I thought she was a bit paranoid & hysterical, to be
                        honest. Anyway, this group was sort of disbanded & turned over to
                        <shudder> our wacko "friend" Dr. Stephen Brown at
                        "SurvivingSpiritually" - now, he's tried to post here, but I certainly
                        have *no* desire to post there, even when I see bullshit like someone
                        asking the connection between e-kult & Sant Mat, and <giggle> Brown
                        gave the usually cult bullshit about how all other paths are just
                        offshoots of eckankar. BarF!!! Puke!!! Duh - I can see Brown
                        blanking out, and hoping that *everyone* else will stick their heads
                        in the sand about the *real* connections between Sant Mat & e-kult,
                        how Twitch was a former member and *plagiarized* from it, and other
                        neat stuff you can see at:
                        http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/rogue1.html - "Undoing
                        the Damage of Rogue Light & Sound Gurus --Deviations from The Path"




                        It's funny how often their tactic of telling culties *not* to read
                        anti-eck sites, fill their heads with lies, etc., really *does* work
                        and the members just stay away. I know that's what *I* did, for
                        awhile at least.




                        Anyway, I have *no* interest in invading their turf. It's distasteful
                        even having to read that stuff, because I want to puke. Ohmigod, it's
                        a real hoot sometimes, though!! Lots of funny stuff - like, I didn't
                        realize how female "clergy" called themselves "priestesses"!! But
                        mostly, it's just sad. I even feel compassion for Brown, who got
                        mixed up & stuck in this shit in 6th grade. And 30-odd years later,
                        the guy is still stuck there, and has done a great job memorizing the
                        cult crap & regurgitating it.




                        Okay mind's wandering now, so evidently I've said whatever I wanted to
                        say here, except I probably forgot a lot. Also, I started responding
                        earlier but accidentally closed this window instead of minimizing it,
                        and damn, there was one really good paragraph I "lost" but can't
                        remember - oh, well!!




                        Bye for now!!




                        Hugs,




                        Sharon
                      • Sharon
                        Pato send the following responses (separate posts) to Paul s message #3168: oh sharon, i honestly love it when you talk dirty!!!! xx sharon, your last
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 8, 2003
                          Pato send the following responses (separate posts) to Paul's message
                          #3168:






                          "oh sharon,


                          i honestly love it when you talk dirty!!!! xx"




                          "sharon,


                          your last message critisized me alot more constructively. thanks for
                          atleast having the maturity to at least trying to understand a
                          different point of view even though it seems that many others come out
                          with -done it wore it and it aint that good.


                          different horses for different courses for me xx"






                          I have no comment on either response. On second thought, yes I do.
                          On the first one, I wasn't "talking dirty" and I doubt if I would joke
                          around with a stranger, especially a current member stranger. On the
                          second one, Pato can shove it up his condescending arrogant ass. Duh,
                          "Been there, done that" is something that I guess they don't
                          understand. You see, former members *do* understand a different point
                          of view. It comes with breaking through the cultic programming.




                          Pato also responded to Paul's message #3164 with:






                          "paul thanks for the time and effort in replaying. will respond
                          constructively soon"






                          These messages, and any future ones, will not be "approved" and since
                          it's MY forum <ggg> I don't need to discuss or justify my decision,
                          other than to say, perhaps Pato & Sword could discuss this at a.r.e.
                          if they so desire. I agree it may be useful for people to see
                          whatever discussion comes out of this, but I feel it's "off topic" for
                          ET - just as it would have been inappropriate for me to attempt to
                          respond to the "SpiritualSurvival" person who asked about the
                          connection between e-kult & Sant Mat - except Brownie I'm sure has me
                          set to "moderate" which means the post wouldn't have gotten through
                          anyway.




                          Oh - I have to laugh!! Shortly after "goldenhearts" was switched to
                          Brownie's group, well...suddenly I started getting individual emails!!
                          I always choose the "daily digest" setting. Well...I simply popped
                          in & changed it back. More than once. Then someone else there posted
                          publicly there and objected to suddenly having their settings changed
                          & getting individual emails. Brownie played innocent. Excuse me, but
                          I've had *this* forum for a long time, and member settings don't
                          change themselves. What was Brownie's point in changing not just
                          mine, but someone else's setting? Trying to harrass me with
                          individual annoying emails? Who knows? But I think it's pretty
                          childish, whatever his reasons.




                          Anyway, I have to make some changes in the home page "announcement"
                          and also in the automated letters that get sent when someone "joins"
                          this group. For one thing, I'd like to emphasize that please, I wish
                          people would read the "files" and "links" section here. Often people
                          will write & ask stuff that they could find for themselves if they'd
                          simply do their homework. I don't have time when all the information
                          is available publicly for those willing to do a bit of "homework".
                          And please, current members - check the links & files section every so
                          often for new additions. I generally don't choose the option where
                          notices are sent to everyone (and posted here) whenever I add
                          something, because I feel the announcements are sort of unnecessary
                          clutter. Maybe from now on, I'll just post one public notice when
                          something's added here, then delete it a few days later. There *are*
                          storage limits here - another thing I need to do is go back over old
                          posts & do some "housecleaning" - I know I've posted stuff here that
                          may be a bit relevant at the time, but ends up just taking up
                          unnecessary space at a later date - and if anyone's interested in
                          going back through the archives here, I'd rather just "store" relevant
                          & useful stuff. So...I may be doing some deleting in the future.




                          Sharon
                        • harveydodds
                          ... message ... by people. I like a contrary opinion. Patos message was polite and it expressed a viewpoint. My theory is no one comes here who doesn t want
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 9, 2003
                            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" <brighttigress@y...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Pato send the following responses (separate posts) to Paul's
                            message
                            > #3168:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > "oh sharon,
                            >
                            >
                            > i honestly love it when you talk dirty!!!! xx"
                            >
                            > There are degrees of departure and varying opinions expressed
                            by people. I like a contrary opinion. Patos message was polite
                            and it expressed a viewpoint. My theory is no one comes here who
                            doesn't want the experience of this group. I certainly would
                            not want Rich or Cher or people quoting eck literature at me, here.
                            Of course it is the discretion of the moderator who should now
                            by now that some, not all ,can be reached if they have any kind
                            of bullshit detector working in their lives. We're grown ups
                            now and we can certainly handle the odd discension as Paul did
                            point by point. If you want truth and can handle this groups
                            side I think you should have you 2 cents worth before being
                            punted off after , as deserved if you turn out to be a big culty
                            drag. Often many Eckists AND ex cult members have disagreed with
                            things I've had to say. But I do and always did listen and mull
                            a bit over what resonated with me. Usually not even admitting
                            that I had listened.



                            >
                            >
                            > "sharon,
                            >
                            >
                            > your last message critisized me alot more constructively. thanks
                            for
                            > atleast having the maturity to at least trying to understand a
                            > different point of view even though it seems that many others come
                            out
                            > with -done it wore it and it aint that good.
                            >
                            >
                            > different horses for different courses for me xx"
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I have no comment on either response. On second thought, yes I
                            do.
                            > On the first one, I wasn't "talking dirty" and I doubt if I would
                            joke
                            > around with a stranger, especially a current member stranger. On
                            the
                            > second one, Pato can shove it up his condescending arrogant ass.
                            Duh,
                            > "Been there, done that" is something that I guess they don't
                            > understand. You see, former members *do* understand a different
                            point
                            > of view. It comes with breaking through the cultic programming.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Pato also responded to Paul's message #3164 with:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > "paul thanks for the time and effort in replaying. will respond
                            > constructively soon"
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > These messages, and any future ones, will not be "approved" and
                            since
                            > it's MY forum <ggg> I don't need to discuss or justify my
                            decision,
                            > other than to say, perhaps Pato & Sword could discuss this at
                            a.r.e.
                            > if they so desire. I agree it may be useful for people to see
                            > whatever discussion comes out of this, but I feel it's "off topic"
                            for
                            > ET - just as it would have been inappropriate for me to attempt to
                            > respond to the "SpiritualSurvival" person who asked about the
                            > connection between e-kult & Sant Mat - except Brownie I'm sure has
                            me
                            > set to "moderate" which means the post wouldn't have gotten
                            through
                            > anyway.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Oh - I have to laugh!! Shortly after "goldenhearts" was switched
                            to
                            > Brownie's group, well...suddenly I started getting individual
                            emails!!
                            > I always choose the "daily digest" setting. Well...I simply
                            popped
                            > in & changed it back. More than once. Then someone else there
                            posted
                            > publicly there and objected to suddenly having their settings
                            changed
                            > & getting individual emails. Brownie played innocent. Excuse me,
                            but
                            > I've had *this* forum for a long time, and member settings don't
                            > change themselves. What was Brownie's point in changing not just
                            > mine, but someone else's setting? Trying to harrass me with
                            > individual annoying emails? Who knows? But I think it's pretty
                            > childish, whatever his reasons.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Anyway, I have to make some changes in the home
                            page "announcement"
                            > and also in the automated letters that get sent when
                            someone "joins"
                            > this group. For one thing, I'd like to emphasize that please, I
                            wish
                            > people would read the "files" and "links" section here. Often
                            people
                            > will write & ask stuff that they could find for themselves if
                            they'd
                            > simply do their homework. I don't have time when all the
                            information
                            > is available publicly for those willing to do a bit
                            of "homework".
                            > And please, current members - check the links & files section
                            every so
                            > often for new additions. I generally don't choose the option
                            where
                            > notices are sent to everyone (and posted here) whenever I add
                            > something, because I feel the announcements are sort of
                            unnecessary
                            > clutter. Maybe from now on, I'll just post one public notice when
                            > something's added here, then delete it a few days later. There
                            *are*
                            > storage limits here - another thing I need to do is go back over
                            old
                            > posts & do some "housecleaning" - I know I've posted stuff here
                            that
                            > may be a bit relevant at the time, but ends up just taking up
                            > unnecessary space at a later date - and if anyone's interested in
                            > going back through the archives here, I'd rather just "store"
                            relevant
                            > & useful stuff. So...I may be doing some deleting in the future.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Sharon
                          • weatherby_240
                            Thanks so much for your insight - I don t often get into the group but when questions come up you always seem to reflect exactly how I perceive eckankar - only
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 14, 2003
                              Thanks so much for your insight - I don't often get into the group
                              but when questions come up you always seem to reflect exactly how I
                              perceive eckankar - only wished my wife would. She came away from
                              the initiation with the usual comments on the beautiful buildings,
                              etc, etc. I just had no response but taking the non-response
                              attitude is not going to last long here.

                              If there is anything positive that eck is perceived to offer, it is
                              likely borrowed from somewhere else.

                              I'm only focused now on rebuilding the time wasted on such crap....

                              W240


                              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson" <broker84@c...>
                              wrote:
                              > I remember getting the pink slip for my 6th initiation back in
                              1996 or so.
                              > At the time, I was very disinterested in eckankar and had little
                              belief
                              > left.
                              >
                              > I recall the initiator reading some stranger by the river during the
                              > ceremony and I was actually bored during the ceremony....I started
                              quoting
                              > the text back to her....She thought and said "Oh My, you know it by
                              heart?",
                              > "You are truly a dedicated eckist!"....I just smiled and
                              thought, "If you
                              > only knew". I quoted the passage because I had heard the whole
                              thing so
                              > many times that the redundancy was boring and had almost no meaning
                              to
                              > me....
                              >
                              > That was another factor in my leaving eckankar. It was stale.
                              >
                              > Harolds books were just re-edited versions of his seminar talks
                              which were
                              > mostly dog and cat stories, and tales sent to him by his initiates
                              in their
                              > initiate reports.....The guy seldom had an original thought and
                              when he did,
                              > it was normally some inane thing like the spiritual significance of
                              his
                              > toilet backing up (caused by him stuffing initiate reports down it
                              or
                              > something like that).....
                              >
                              > I was so bored by eckankar by that time. There I was, a "leader" in
                              > eckankar, and all I saw around me were sheep following worn out
                              dogma's and
                              > spouting endless eck platitudes that seldom fit the occasion at
                              hand. I saw
                              > that my fellow leaders were in a sleep like state as well and that
                              the newer
                              > initiates were constantly being "corrected" in their thinking about
                              > spiritual issues.....It was like slowly hypnotizing people over a
                              period of
                              > years into being little spiritual clones......"Don't think this or
                              that!"
                              > "Try to see it from this angle!" etc. etc....
                              >
                              > It was 2 more years until I finally left eckankar in my mind and
                              > permanently.
                              >
                              > I know it was spiritually dishonest of me to stay around as long as
                              I did
                              > but in all honesty, I was scared to go and would miss all my
                              friends and the
                              > social perks of eckankar.....Honesty finally won out though and
                              today, I am
                              > only sorry that I didn't leave back in 1980 or so when I first
                              heard about
                              > all of eckankars foibles.
                              >
                              > Have a Great 4th of July to you Americans and a great day to
                              everyone else
                              > too!
                              >
                              > Sword
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "weatherby_240" <95yukon@e...>
                              > To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 10:36 AM
                              > Subject: [eckankartruth] 3rd Initiation Papers - 2nd time
                              >
                              >
                              > > I just received my second offer to get my 3rd initiation even
                              though
                              > > I'm out. Their soul traveling isn't connecting cause if it was
                              they
                              > > would know it is a waste of time. However, my wife got her offer
                              for
                              > > the 4th initiation and is going to Chanhassen to get it.
                              > >
                              > > I just don't get it.. seems like a denial thing as I see all the
                              > > evidence of what it is all about. I considered writing to inform
                              > > them I'm out, but that may bring more "karma" that it is worth
                              too.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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