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I don't see anything harmful here

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  • violinmike2002 <violinmike2002@yahoo.com>
    (Note from Sharon: I know it was previously discussed here & the consensus was *not* to have posts from current members here, but how can people learn without
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 12, 2002
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      (Note from Sharon: I know it was previously discussed here & the consensus was *not* to have posts from current members here, but how can people learn without being able to ask questions in a mutually respectful atmosphere? It helped me to wake up back on a.r.e., although the eckists certainly didn't create a nice atmosphere there. Gawd, running a forum can be a nuisance! <gg> Anyway, I'm sure many former members have some good answers & comments for Mike. )


      If you dont go nuts over it I don't see anything harmful in
      Eckankar. Some local groups have wingnut HI's so stay away from the
      centers if you don't like them . Maybe like the cowardly lion I found
      my courage using the tools they taught me. I never accept anything
      blindly and never did. Dream study is an ancient tradition useful as
      spiritual study. I've read many coercive cults and this isnt one to
      me. Human beings argue and sue each other and Eckists are still human
      beings. Harold accounts for his actions re Darwin Gross in Soul
      travels of the far country. If Darwin Gross was such a great leader
      his own ATOM group would have turned into a major force. I dont send
      all my money to Minnesota and several years didn't meet the donation
      level for membership and they still kept me. Paul Twitchell was a
      lovable rogue who plagerized perhaps but suggests you too can be a
      master and visit invisible realms. Being in Eckankar helped me
      weather loneliness, bankrupcy, a crappy telemarketing job for three
      years,an operation that was frightening and enhanced my creativity.
      Golden tongue wisdom is practiced by shamans and many other
      spiritually aware beings. The bottom line is am I getting something
      of value here that is compatable with my goals as a spiritual person.
      Inner experiences just seem like a dream if you only stay in this
      world. In short for me,for the last seven years its been positive . I
      make up my own mind no one directs me or coerces me.I suppose if
      youre a zealot its harmful but I think at least is benign and not
      dangerous. I will monitor this site for useful imformation. Whether
      Harold and Bin Laden are connected is not useful information. Baraka
      Bashad
    • Sharon <brighttigress@yahoo.com>
      ... That s your choice. Some people object to lies, deceit, plagiarism, manipulation, etc. Some local groups have wingnut HI s so stay away from the ...
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 15, 2002
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        --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "violinmike2002 <violinmike2002@y...>" <violinmike2002@y...> wrote:
        >
        > If you dont go nuts over it I don't see anything harmful in
        > Eckankar.

        That's your choice. Some people object to lies, deceit, plagiarism, manipulation, etc.



        Some local groups have wingnut HI's so stay away from the
        > centers if you don't like them.

        Perhaps "the mahanta" should practice that "inner" stuff until he gets it right, and stops promoting these wackos to positions of authority, and stroking their arrogant cultic egos with phony, meaningless "initiations".

        (And believe me, when I was a member I rationalized these things just as *you* are no doubt doing.)


        > Maybe like the cowardly lion I found
        > my courage using the tools they taught me.

        Yep, there's much spiritual truth in The Wizard of Oz.


        > I never accept anything
        > blindly and never did.

        But...you are a member, and therefore give your support to lies, deceit, and manipulation.



        Dream study is an ancient tradition useful as
        > spiritual study.

        Yes, and you don't need cult membership to study your dreams.


        >I've read many coercive cults and this isnt one to
        > me.

        It wasn't a cult to me either, back in '98. Which is why I got out quickly when it was absolutely *proven* to be a cult.


        >Human beings argue and sue each other and Eckists are still human
        > beings.


        Well, there are *many* find human beings in the world who live good and moral lives without cult initiation & "status". Of course, they're not "ready" for those high holey secret spirichul "teachings" you get with cult membership....



        > Harold accounts for his actions re Darwin Gross in Soul
        > travels of the far country.

        Yeah, and Harold also attributes a psychotic break and suicidal behavior to "god-realization".

        Harold rationalizes a sleazy office affair & dumping his family by thinking he's the equivalent of a 16-year-old on Viagra.

        After spending hours shredding paper and trying to flush the toilet...

        It gets really ridiculous when you get out and see it for what it is, Mike.


        > If Darwin Gross was such a great leader
        > his own ATOM group would have turned into a major force.

        Have you seen any of Twitch's old wild predictions of millions of members by now?

        Hmmmm....using your logic, Mike, the Roman Catholic Church *and* Islam have a heck of a lot more "holy spirit power"!


        >I dont send
        > all my money to Minnesota and several years didn't meet the donation
        > level for membership and they still kept me.

        Hey, if you ever leave, this statement will be turned against you, as it was with me!! I had to beg for freebie membership my last year in the cult.

        The "teachings" say you can pay with money, service (recruiting), or suffering.

        "In the same way that one serves the ECK by putting the name forward in signs, bumper stickers, T-shirts, jewelry, etc., and makes the name common, so too can those serve who have only money to give and cannot go about actively." Paul Twitchell, Letters to a Chela

        Klemp has gotten a bit "classier" - you received that glossy color brochure telling members how to remember the cult in their wills, retirement funds, etc., didn't you?

        Tithing is preferred - the official "donations" policy is in the files section here. BTW - Todd Cramer, former VP, evidently found that the preponderance of what you call "wingnuts" had sort of snuk into the Temple Itself, and preferred to leave the cult.



        Paul Twitchell was a
        > lovable rogue who plagerized perhaps but suggests you too can be a
        > master and visit invisible realms.

        Paul Twitchell had that fake personality you often find in successful salespeople - like dishonest used car salesmen. He lucked out and got himself a tender young wife - a very ambitious one. Sadly, he wasn't very good at holding a job and making a living. So...he declared himself God & started a cult. I wonder if he was at the Hollywood party where L. Ron Hubbard concocted $cientology? Probably not - anyway, Harlan Ellison is one of my favorite authors, and I *love* this story: http://www.amazing.com/scientology/harlan-ellison.html

        It's not just the plagiarism, it's claiming that tons of plagiarized stuff was "dictated by eckmasters".



        > Being in Eckankar helped me
        > weather loneliness, bankrupcy, a crappy telemarketing job for three
        > years,an operation that was frightening and enhanced my creativity.

        When life sucks, fantasy, self-hypnotism, and telling yourself you're "chosen" and "special" can help, huh?

        That's what Twitch did, too. He wrote somewhere about walking on a beach (I think) having a pity party when KABOOM!!! He realized his miserable life was because he was in training to be GODMAN!!! <ggg>

        Bullshit.


        > Golden tongue wisdom is practiced by shamans and many other
        > spiritually aware beings.

        Sure, but e-kult goes a bit too far with this, and with the importance of dreams. Why? Because it has nothing of REAL substance in it.



        > The bottom line is am I getting something
        > of value here that is compatable with my goals as a spiritual person.

        SHAME ON YOU, MIKE!!! I can give you eckquotes. Basically, ask not what the cult can do for you; ask what you can do for the cult. Twitch used this line after JFK, and Klemp often says the same thing.



        > Inner experiences just seem like a dream if you only stay in this
        > world.

        Escapism. You can be totally in this world and have fun in others, too. Without cult membership.


        In short for me,for the last seven years its been positive . I
        > make up my own mind no one directs me or coerces me.I suppose if
        > youre a zealot its harmful but I think at least is benign and not
        > dangerous.

        Gee, you sound just like me & most other former members, when we were members! <ggg>


        > I will monitor this site for useful imformation.

        I hope someone posts some! <ggg>



        > Whether
        > Harold and Bin Laden are connected is not useful information.

        True, but Alf is my Master and therefore has special posting privileges. Anyway, there is great spiritual wisdom there, for those who are "ready" and can perceive the "inner" wisdom.

        I think Alf is a much better Master than Harold. Alf knows better than to spend hours trying to flush shredded paper down the toilet. Alf would have called maintenance if it was shredded paper. If the toilet was blocked by "something else" I'm sure he would have kindly & compassionately just asked for a plunger & unblocked it himself. And if Alf were confronted by soul-stealing witches & warlocks at a haunted European hotel, believe me, he could take care of the problem all by himself, thank you, although I would hope he'd let his Humble Serving Wench come along for laughs. He wouldn't have to check out the next morning. <ggg>

        BTW, have you seen the website selling Osama Bin Laden toilet paper for $2.99 a roll? I would NEVER pay that much for something that gets flushed!!! Except...I paid a lot more for the cult's discourses, and they're too rough to use for toilet paper. About the only thing they're good for is exposing the cult's silliness to "seekers".

        Well, Mike, sorry if I sound "snippy" but I'm sort of burned out on all this, and in "real" life it's just a distant & laughable memory. It's only my appreciation for other former members who spoke out & helped me wake up that keeps me doing this, but at this point I'd rather just do a more comprehensive website.

        I'm hoping some of our more polite and intelligent members might find time to respond. You can also do a search of the Google a.r.e. archives if you like - okay, a few who come to mind who are exceptionally good are Lurk, Joe, Leafeater, Sworddancer, Catlist, SivaRi, and my mind has gone blank, but there are many more. Seek and ye shall find. (That's from Klemp's favorite Dead Book.)


        >Baraka Bashad

        I prefer "Have a nice day!", thank you! Of course, for eckists I qualify that with "if so choose to, because you may choose to have a bad day for spiritual growth or to work off karma, and I wouldn't want to interfere & basically practice black magic by wishing you well!

        <giggle> Seriously, the above isn't "me" - it's from an old discussion back in Chela Chat when I was a member.

        So...this is one of many reasons why I'm not posting much publicly anymore - although I flip into "defECKator" mode quite easily, it's old and I'm boring myself, although I still giggle at my snotty self, I'd rather be doing other things. Today, it's setting up my new softside waterbed - got a good deal on the internet, but I was a bit surprised when it arrived in three boxes. <ggg> Well, it'll still be a lot faster & easier than moving around the big old waterbed, which is also becoming more difficult to get out of as I age.

        Bye!

        Ho Ho Hugs!!

        Sharon
      • violinmike2002 <violinmike2002@yahoo.com>
        For me Paul Twitchell was like a carpenter- No one believed it but he built a piece of furniture that cobbled together as it may be has stood and served
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 16, 2002
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          For me Paul Twitchell was like a carpenter- No one believed it
          but he built a piece of furniture that cobbled together as it may be
          has stood and served millions for over 35 years. Having never met
          Paul Twitchell I can only assume that you have or have chosen to
          believe all the second hand information about him. No one ever
          offered to teach me spiritual secrets of mastership before I dont
          feel qualified to judge the benefits of intitiations, I am results
          oriented I try and judge results for myself. I never would have
          joined any other eastern group other than Transcendental Meditation--
          do that too much and you'll be pretty much useless but mellow I don't
          give my support to lies deceit and manipulation to me I am
          responsible for what I do including being open minded enough(maybe
          just barely)to consider alternate opinions. Eckankar is wrong for you
          but you've even grown from your negative association with it. I saw
          hundreds of your posts and nobody spoke in a voice like mine cult
          swamped as you may think it is .
          I have a better angle on dreams I usually dismissed as
          mutterings of the subconscious. I still think some of them are but
          some of them are much more
          Cult smult when and if I get to that day or point I'll deal with
          it like everything else I have. Some book somewhere we have says were
          no better than anyone else. Sadly many do puff themselves up I do
          believe in inner experiences of the sound and light and want to
          continue in them .
          Alf is your leader. I enjoyed that. I liked that show. I
          believe it was cancelled many years ago. No doubt theres a network
          somewhere running it. That was funny. You have pointed out one of my
          flaws however I don't get out much. I don't even have a car the bus
          has to get me places. Thank god for the internet the bastion of truth
          Yahoo and the Aol way! I thought we had millions of members but how
          would I know as I said I dont get out much.
          Are my parents supporting a Catholic church that is rife with
          abuse of alterboys as well as male dominant worship,empire vatican
          building and world overpopulation when they toddle off to Christmas
          eve mass?I have some opinions but its really not my place to say. I
          can say I am a guest in your house I believe an honest one without
          malice. But Alf was a master of the smart retort.
          Are or were Darwin Gross Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp the
          masters of nothing? Can't say I've really met any of them. If Mr
          Gross couldnt move forward and front a sucessful new group then the
          plane he spent the most time on was the Fragile Plane.
          I would be interested in what Kramer or other top people have to
          say . Perhaps what Lane and others write had created an over reaction
          at the top levels. Be assured the membership will drink no spiked
          koolaid. Around here yes we got the leave Eckankar in your will
          mailing I believe once a year we are asked for these solications for
          temple building etc. You can even get a boy scout badge in Eckankar.
          I am not coerced to support things. Earth has a whole lot of
          religions spiritual groups that want money. The salvation army has
          set up a kettle in our neighborhood state run liquor store. Motto the
          immortal words of Bto taking care of business EVeryday!
          Scientology now thats a scary organization. Wouldnt go near it
          with a ten foot pole. Millionare actors like Tom Cruise and that guy
          in Battlefield Earth, whatshisname. Must make note not to go to
          movies with them in em might be supporting Scientology.
          I never told myself I was chosen or special.I realize youre not
          really talking to me but playing to the gallery here. Do you really
          think all my experiences were fantasy and self delusion? How harsh.
          How sad.No path apparently teaches how to be kind. Loved Yogadanadana
          joke posting have printed it out. Laugh every time I read it.
          Said I wasn't a fanatic. Ask what you can do for the cult how
          many religions want you to carry the cross, or jihad etc. Just say no
          way Jose. No doubt someone else wants to have a wack at me but I
          asked for it.Eckankar is in your past now and that is as should be
          for you and your many posters. Your reflections on allowing my posts
          are commendable. You dont just talk but walk your walk moderator. I
          am a guest in your house, a vocal one but not one who will burn the
          house down or soil the linen. Happy winter soltise like holiday..>"
          <violinmike2002@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > If you dont go nuts over it I don't see anything harmful in
          > > Eckankar.
          >
          > That's your choice. Some people object to lies, deceit,
          plagiarism, manipulation, etc.
          >
          >
          >
          > Some local groups have wingnut HI's so stay away from the
          > > centers if you don't like them.
          >
          > Perhaps "the mahanta" should practice that "inner" stuff until he
          gets it right, and stops promoting these wackos to positions of
          authority, and stroking their arrogant cultic egos with phony,
          meaningless "initiations".
          >
          > (And believe me, when I was a member I rationalized these things
          just as *you* are no doubt doing.)
          >
          >
          > > Maybe like the cowardly lion I found
          > > my courage using the tools they taught me.
          >
          > Yep, there's much spiritual truth in The Wizard of Oz.
          >
          >
          > > I never accept anything
          > > blindly and never did.
          >
          > But...you are a member, and therefore give your support to lies,
          deceit, and manipulation.
          >
          >
          >
          > Dream study is an ancient tradition useful as
          > > spiritual study.
          >
          > Yes, and you don't need cult membership to study your dreams.
          >
          >
          > >I've read many coercive cults and this isnt one to
          > > me.
          >
          > It wasn't a cult to me either, back in '98. Which is why I got out
          quickly when it was absolutely *proven* to be a cult.
          >
          >
          > >Human beings argue and sue each other and Eckists are still human
          > > beings.
          >
          >
          > Well, there are *many* find human beings in the world who live good
          and moral lives without cult initiation & "status". Of course,
          they're not "ready" for those high holey secret spirichul "teachings"
          you get with cult membership....
          >
          >
          >
          > > Harold accounts for his actions re Darwin Gross in Soul
          > > travels of the far country.
          >
          > Yeah, and Harold also attributes a psychotic break and suicidal
          behavior to "god-realization".
          >
          > Harold rationalizes a sleazy office affair & dumping his family by
          thinking he's the equivalent of a 16-year-old on Viagra.
          >
          > After spending hours shredding paper and trying to flush the
          toilet...
          >
          > It gets really ridiculous when you get out and see it for what it
          is, Mike.
          >
          >
          > > If Darwin Gross was such a great leader
          > > his own ATOM group would have turned into a major force.
          >
          > Have you seen any of Twitch's old wild predictions of millions of
          members by now?
          >
          > Hmmmm....using your logic, Mike, the Roman Catholic Church *and*
          Islam have a heck of a lot more "holy spirit power"!
          >
          >
          > >I dont send
          > > all my money to Minnesota and several years didn't meet the
          donation
          > > level for membership and they still kept me.
          >
          > Hey, if you ever leave, this statement will be turned against you,
          as it was with me!! I had to beg for freebie membership my last year
          in the cult.
          >
          > The "teachings" say you can pay with money, service (recruiting),
          or suffering.
          >
          > "In the same way that one serves the ECK by putting the name
          forward in signs, bumper stickers, T-shirts, jewelry, etc., and makes
          the name common, so too can those serve who have only money to give
          and cannot go about actively." Paul Twitchell, Letters to a Chela
          >
          > Klemp has gotten a bit "classier" - you received that glossy color
          brochure telling members how to remember the cult in their wills,
          retirement funds, etc., didn't you?
          >
          > Tithing is preferred - the official "donations" policy is in the
          files section here. BTW - Todd Cramer, former VP, evidently found
          that the preponderance of what you call "wingnuts" had sort of snuk
          into the Temple Itself, and preferred to leave the cult.
          >
          >
          >
          > Paul Twitchell was a
          > > lovable rogue who plagerized perhaps but suggests you too can be
          a
          > > master and visit invisible realms.
          >
          > Paul Twitchell had that fake personality you often find in
          successful salespeople - like dishonest used car salesmen. He lucked
          out and got himself a tender young wife - a very ambitious one.
          Sadly, he wasn't very good at holding a job and making a living.
          So...he declared himself God & started a cult. I wonder if he was at
          the Hollywood party where L. Ron Hubbard concocted $cientology?
          Probably not - anyway, Harlan Ellison is one of my favorite authors,
          and I *love* this story: http://www.amazing.com/scientology/harlan-
          ellison.html
          >
          > It's not just the plagiarism, it's claiming that tons of
          plagiarized stuff was "dictated by eckmasters".
          >
          >
          >
          > > Being in Eckankar helped me
          > > weather loneliness, bankrupcy, a crappy telemarketing job for
          three
          > > years,an operation that was frightening and enhanced my
          creativity.
          >
          > When life sucks, fantasy, self-hypnotism, and telling yourself
          you're "chosen" and "special" can help, huh?
          >
          > That's what Twitch did, too. He wrote somewhere about walking on a
          beach (I think) having a pity party when KABOOM!!! He realized his
          miserable life was because he was in training to be GODMAN!!! <ggg>
          >
          > Bullshit.
          >
          >
          > > Golden tongue wisdom is practiced by shamans and many other
          > > spiritually aware beings.
          >
          > Sure, but e-kult goes a bit too far with this, and with the
          importance of dreams. Why? Because it has nothing of REAL substance
          in it.
          >
          >
          >
          > > The bottom line is am I getting something
          > > of value here that is compatable with my goals as a spiritual
          person.
          >
          > SHAME ON YOU, MIKE!!! I can give you eckquotes. Basically, ask
          not what the cult can do for you; ask what you can do for the cult.
          Twitch used this line after JFK, and Klemp often says the same thing.
          >
          >
          >
          > > Inner experiences just seem like a dream if you only stay in this
          > > world.
          >
          > Escapism. You can be totally in this world and have fun in others,
          too. Without cult membership.
          >
          >
          > In short for me,for the last seven years its been positive . I
          > > make up my own mind no one directs me or coerces me.I suppose if
          > > youre a zealot its harmful but I think at least is benign and not
          > > dangerous.
          >
          > Gee, you sound just like me & most other former members, when we
          were members! <ggg>
          >
          >
          > > I will monitor this site for useful imformation.
          >
          > I hope someone posts some! <ggg>
          >
          >
          >
          > > Whether
          > > Harold and Bin Laden are connected is not useful information.
          >
          > True, but Alf is my Master and therefore has special posting
          privileges. Anyway, there is great spiritual wisdom there, for those
          who are "ready" and can perceive the "inner" wisdom.
          >
          > I think Alf is a much better Master than Harold. Alf knows better
          than to spend hours trying to flush shredded paper down the toilet.
          Alf would have called maintenance if it was shredded paper. If the
          toilet was blocked by "something else" I'm sure he would have kindly
          & compassionately just asked for a plunger & unblocked it himself.
          And if Alf were confronted by soul-stealing witches & warlocks at a
          haunted European hotel, believe me, he could take care of the problem
          all by himself, thank you, although I would hope he'd let his Humble
          Serving Wench come along for laughs. He wouldn't have to check out
          the next morning. <ggg>
          >
          > BTW, have you seen the website selling Osama Bin Laden toilet paper
          for $2.99 a roll? I would NEVER pay that much for something that
          gets flushed!!! Except...I paid a lot more for the cult's
          discourses, and they're too rough to use for toilet paper. About the
          only thing they're good for is exposing the cult's silliness
          to "seekers".
          >
          > Well, Mike, sorry if I sound "snippy" but I'm sort of burned out on
          all this, and in "real" life it's just a distant & laughable memory.
          It's only my appreciation for other former members who spoke out &
          helped me wake up that keeps me doing this, but at this point I'd
          rather just do a more comprehensive website.
          >
          > I'm hoping some of our more polite and intelligent members might
          find time to respond. You can also do a search of the Google a.r.e.
          archives if you like - okay, a few who come to mind who are
          exceptionally good are Lurk, Joe, Leafeater, Sworddancer, Catlist,
          SivaRi, and my mind has gone blank, but there are many more. Seek
          and ye shall find. (That's from Klemp's favorite Dead Book.)
          >
          >
          > >Baraka Bashad
          >
          > I prefer "Have a nice day!", thank you! Of course, for eckists I
          qualify that with "if so choose to, because you may choose to have a
          bad day for spiritual growth or to work off karma, and I wouldn't
          want to interfere & basically practice black magic by wishing you
          well!
          >
          > <giggle> Seriously, the above isn't "me" - it's from an old
          discussion back in Chela Chat when I was a member.
          >
          > So...this is one of many reasons why I'm not posting much publicly
          anymore - although I flip into "defECKator" mode quite easily, it's
          old and I'm boring myself, although I still giggle at my snotty self,
          I'd rather be doing other things. Today, it's setting up my new
          softside waterbed - got a good deal on the internet, but I was a bit
          surprised when it arrived in three boxes. <ggg> Well, it'll still
          be a lot faster & easier than moving around the big old waterbed,
          which is also becoming more difficult to get out of as I age.
          >
          > Bye!
          >
          > Ho Ho Hugs!!
          >
          > Sharon
        • Sharon <brighttigress@yahoo.com>
          ... Well, experiment is over as far as I m concerned!! There s no reason to have current members posting here, it s quite clear. If anyone feels like
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 19, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "violinmike2002 <violinmike2002@y...>" <violinmike2002@y...> wrote:
            > For me Paul Twitchell was like a carpenter- No one believed it
            > but he built a piece of furniture that cobbled together as it may be
            > has stood and served millions for over 35 years. Having never met
            > Paul Twitchell I can only assume that you have or have chosen to
            > believe all the second hand information about him. No one ever
            > offered to teach me spiritual secrets of mastership before I dont
            > feel qualified to judge the benefits of intitiations, I am results
            > oriented I try and judge results for myself. I never would have
            > joined any other eastern group other than Transcendental Meditation--
            > do that too much and you'll be pretty much useless but mellow I don't
            > give my support to lies deceit and manipulation to me I am
            > responsible for what I do including being open minded enough(maybe
            > just barely)to consider alternate opinions. Eckankar is wrong for you
            > but you've even grown from your negative association with it. I saw
            > hundreds of your posts and nobody spoke in a voice like mine cult
            > swamped as you may think it is .
            > I have a better angle on dreams I usually dismissed as
            > mutterings of the subconscious. I still think some of them are but
            > some of them are much more
            > Cult smult when and if I get to that day or point I'll deal with
            > it like everything else I have. Some book somewhere we have says were
            > no better than anyone else. Sadly many do puff themselves up I do
            > believe in inner experiences of the sound and light and want to
            > continue in them .
            > Alf is your leader. I enjoyed that. I liked that show. I
            > believe it was cancelled many years ago. No doubt theres a network
            > somewhere running it. That was funny. You have pointed out one of my
            > flaws however I don't get out much. I don't even have a car the bus
            > has to get me places. Thank god for the internet the bastion of truth
            > Yahoo and the Aol way! I thought we had millions of members but how
            > would I know as I said I dont get out much.
            > Are my parents supporting a Catholic church that is rife with
            > abuse of alterboys as well as male dominant worship,empire vatican
            > building and world overpopulation when they toddle off to Christmas
            > eve mass?I have some opinions but its really not my place to say. I
            > can say I am a guest in your house I believe an honest one without
            > malice. But Alf was a master of the smart retort.
            > Are or were Darwin Gross Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp the
            > masters of nothing? Can't say I've really met any of them. If Mr
            > Gross couldnt move forward and front a sucessful new group then the
            > plane he spent the most time on was the Fragile Plane.
            > I would be interested in what Kramer or other top people have to
            > say . Perhaps what Lane and others write had created an over reaction
            > at the top levels. Be assured the membership will drink no spiked
            > koolaid. Around here yes we got the leave Eckankar in your will
            > mailing I believe once a year we are asked for these solications for
            > temple building etc. You can even get a boy scout badge in Eckankar.
            > I am not coerced to support things. Earth has a whole lot of
            > religions spiritual groups that want money. The salvation army has
            > set up a kettle in our neighborhood state run liquor store. Motto the
            > immortal words of Bto taking care of business EVeryday!
            > Scientology now thats a scary organization. Wouldnt go near it
            > with a ten foot pole. Millionare actors like Tom Cruise and that guy
            > in Battlefield Earth, whatshisname. Must make note not to go to
            > movies with them in em might be supporting Scientology.
            > I never told myself I was chosen or special.I realize youre not
            > really talking to me but playing to the gallery here. Do you really
            > think all my experiences were fantasy and self delusion? How harsh.
            > How sad.No path apparently teaches how to be kind. Loved Yogadanadana
            > joke posting have printed it out. Laugh every time I read it.
            > Said I wasn't a fanatic. Ask what you can do for the cult how
            > many religions want you to carry the cross, or jihad etc. Just say no
            > way Jose. No doubt someone else wants to have a wack at me but I
            > asked for it.Eckankar is in your past now and that is as should be
            > for you and your many posters. Your reflections on allowing my posts
            > are commendable. You dont just talk but walk your walk moderator. I
            > am a guest in your house, a vocal one but not one who will burn the
            > house down or soil the linen. Happy winter soltise like holiday..


            Well, experiment is over as far as I'm concerned!! There's no reason to have current members posting here, it's quite clear. If anyone feels like discussing this, though, feel free. I'd also like to add - because I think this paragraph expresses something we're all familiar with, although I know Mike just doesn't see it - this is from a private post he sent me after I let him post the first one:

            "Okay you posted it. Congratulations I think you made a great leap there. If you set groundrules to allow no propaganda supporting Eckankar, some sign of open mindedness and no attacks on ex members and also keep your own forum from insulting or trying to nail my ass to the wall things wont end up like on your other site. You wouldn't be very different from what some allege about eckankar if you won't allow an exchange of ideas. New blood is good It will make the whole environment better and make some people think again.Favorite spiritual exercise - Lie on couch do Hu till i fall asleep wake up 30 minutes later -seems to work for me "

            I'm just shaking my head here, and being glad I woke up and got out.

            However, if anyone else feels like responding to Mike, please feel free! There are some points I know some of you "old-timers" could handle quite well if you're so inclined.

            Ho Ho Hugs,

            Sharon

            PS - Mike, this ends it. Don't take this personally - but unless I get a response from the membership saying they'd like more of this stuff here, well...this forum is for former members only once again.
          • Paul Olson, Broker
            Hi Sharon and all, It s been quite while since I ve posted here and life is going great for me lately. I have enjoyed what you all have written. I thought
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 19, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Sharon and all,

              It's been quite while since I've posted here and life is going great for me
              lately. I have enjoyed what you all have written. I thought I'd just put
              in my 2 cents worth regarding this mornings post from Sharon and Mike....

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sharon <brighttigress@...>
              To: eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: December 19, 2002 6:00 AM
              Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Eckist returns


              --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "violinmike2002 <violinmike2002@y...>"
              <violinmike2002@y...> wrote:
              > For me Paul Twitchell was like a carpenter- No one believed it
              > but he built a piece of furniture that cobbled together as it may be
              > has stood and served millions for over 35 years.

              Sword writes:
              Ptolemaic Astronomy stood and served people for thousands of years....It
              stated that Earth was the center of the Universe and that all the other
              celestial bodies rotated around the Earth.....Now, looking at the Sun Moon
              and stars, this seemed likely at the time.....but people grew and the truth
              won out.....Those who believed in the flawed system also led what they
              considered to be valueable lives....

              But there were also the truth seekers in science back then as well.....and
              they were persecuted, ask Galileo about that. he discovered what he
              believed to be a truth and wrote about it....the power of his religion
              threatened him with death until he was forced to recant...and even after
              that, they inprisoned him for the remaindar of his life. 400 years later,
              the catholic church forgave him and acknowledged his findings as accurate.

              Mike Writes:
              >Having never met
              > Paul Twitchell I can only assume that you have or have chosen to
              > believe all the second hand information about him.

              Sword Writes:
              I did meet Paul Twitchell. Lots of folks did. Some few are still in
              eckankar, however most have left as a result of their own search for truth.

              It doesn't matter whether you meet someone or not, when it comes to their
              credibility. Paul left behind his writings and tapes, and these reveal all
              too well the charactor of the person who claimed to be God's messanger of
              eckankar. Unfortunately, the books and tapes that Paul left behind also
              could not stand up to the light of truth.......I must admit that finding out
              the truth about eckankar is not a fun experience......It would have been so
              much nicer for me if the neat little package of eckankar had turned out to
              be the truth......Alas, Life had more seeking in store for me.....If I
              wanted the truth that is.

              Mike Writes:
              >No one ever
              > offered to teach me spiritual secrets of mastership before I dont
              > feel qualified to judge the benefits of intitiations, I am results
              > oriented I try and judge results for myself.

              Sword Writes:
              Herein lies a big key. You are the ONLY one qualified to judge the benefits
              of initiation given by any teacher or group.....unless you decide to
              surrender your own mind and ability to descriminate, to an outside source.

              Mike Writes:
              >I never would have
              > joined any other eastern group other than Transcendental Meditation--
              > do that too much and you'll be pretty much useless but mellow I don't
              > give my support to lies deceit and manipulation to me I am
              > responsible for what I do including being open minded enough(maybe
              > just barely)to consider alternate opinions.

              Sword Writes:
              I agree that too much praying, meditation, contemplation, self seeking etc,
              will lull one into a false state of detachment....actually, I think a better
              word would be, "La La Land". Considering alternate opinions is yet another
              very valid way to see what is actually out there.....Over my years, I have
              become convinced that no human is capable of knowing the entirity.....It's
              the search, and what we become along the way, that matters....and that,
              ultimately, is the responsibility of each individual...I think eckankar can
              hold one back from that realization.

              Mike writes:
              >Eckankar is wrong for you
              > but you've even grown from your negative association with it. I saw
              > hundreds of your posts and nobody spoke in a voice like mine cult
              > swamped as you may think it is .

              Sword Writes:
              Well, this does appear to be a group for ex-eckists...I would'nt be too hard
              on Sharon about that.....if you want to hear your own voice or one like it,
              try hutalk or a.r.e.

              Mike Writes:
              > I have a better angle on dreams I usually dismissed as
              > mutterings of the subconscious. I still think some of them are but
              > some of them are much more ..

              Swprd Writes:
              Agreed



              Mike Writes:
              > Cult smult when and if I get to that day or point I'll deal with
              > it like everything else I have. Some book somewhere we have says were
              > no better than anyone else.


              Sword Writes:
              And a lot of other eck books and tapes also say that yoyu are the "chosen
              people", and place you above even jesus aned buddha and the other teachers
              in your level of growth......and If I may comment, I feel that this is
              simply ego-building bullshit....Life is not that clear cut and no group or
              master has the exclusive rights to spiritual growth, spirit or love.


              Mike Writes:
              >Sadly many do puff themselves up I do
              > believe in inner experiences of the sound and light and want to
              > continue in them .


              Sword Writes:
              Hmmmm, what lead you to believe that the light and sound experiences could
              cease to continue? And under what conditions would they cease to
              continue?.....If you feel that these experiences are dependant upon your
              affilliation with eckankar or with harold or whoever, then you have been
              controlled and have freely given control of your spiritual growth to an
              outside source.....this is an example of the subtle brain washing of
              eckankar......I am certainly not saying that this has happened with you, or
              anyone else, however, the quesiton needs to be looked at by anyone who
              lables themselves as a "FOLLOWER" of anything or any path.

              SNIP
              .

              Mike or Sharon wrote:??
              >. You can even get a boy scout badge in Eckankar.

              Sword wrote:
              Are you Serious about a boy scout merit badge for eckankar??????

              Someone wrote:
              > I am not coerced to support things. Earth has a whole lot of
              > religions spiritual groups that want money. The salvation army has
              > set up a kettle in our neighborhood state run liquor store. Motto the
              > immortal words of Bto taking care of business EVeryday!
              > Scientology now thats a scary organization. Wouldnt go near it
              > with a ten foot pole. Millionare actors like Tom Cruise and that guy
              > in Battlefield Earth, whatshisname. Must make note not to go to
              > movies with them in em might be supporting Scientology.

              Sword wrote:
              John Travolta.


              Mike writes:
              > I never told myself I was chosen or special.I realize youre not
              > really talking to me but playing to the gallery here. Do you really
              > think all my experiences were fantasy and self delusion?


              Sword writes:
              Your experiences are probably not fantasy or self delusion however they are
              probably not caused by what you think of at their source......check out the
              mirror if you want the source of the image.

              SNIP

              Mike wrote:
              > No doubt someone else wants to have a wack at me but I
              > asked for it.Eckankar is in your past now and that is as should be
              > for you and your many posters.


              Sword writes:
              I find it interesting that the eckists feel attacked by the "detractors" and
              the detractors feel attacked by the "eckists"......I think that if we look
              seriously, we can usually find that the detractors feel that eckankar
              mislead and decieved them and that they wish to assist the eckists out of
              that trap......AND that the eckists feel that they have found the ultimate
              truth, or are at least on the path that leads there...and the eckists want
              to help the detractors out of the illusion that lead them away from
              eckankar........

              For myself, I think both sides of this are missing a big point.....that
              being, that we are each and alone responsible for our own place in the
              universe and our own understanding of the universe.....we have chosen our
              own places and where we happen to be, is where we should be right
              now....Which is NOT to say that we are RIGHT and someone else is WRONG in
              their understanding of life. What both sides kinda seem to need is a little
              more compassion and willingness to allow others to be what they are. There
              is no need to feel threatened by anothers beliefs unless you happen to be an
              American and the other guy is "AL-Quida" or something.

              I still contend that most of the members of eckankar are innocent and
              sincere seekers of truth who have been led to honestly believe that life
              fits into the little eckankar box and that those outside the box are
              starving souls who need to me shown the way.....BUT I also think that there
              are a good many long time eckists who are spiritually dishonest people, who
              DO know the truth about eckankar, and choose to ignore it, out of a yearning
              for benefits that can be derived from their membership....stuff like selling
              financial schemes, vitamins, monetary gain, easy sexual encounters, feelings
              of power over others derived from status as a high initiate, etc...etc..I
              met my share of these folks....This is a danger of being a "follower"....you
              really do give up a lot when you decide to "follow".....

              If you propogate a teaching that you personally know is false, or at least
              questionable, then you have decided to perpetrate the Lie....you are harming
              others spiritually, and yourself as well. I rank Paul Twitchell, Darwin
              Gross, and Harold Klemp in this catagory.....

              Mike wrote:
              >Your reflections on allowing my posts
              > are commendable. You dont just talk but walk your walk moderator. I
              > am a guest in your house, a vocal one but not one who will burn the
              > house down or soil the linen. Happy winter soltise like holiday..


              Sharon wrote:
              >Well, experiment is over as far as I'm concerned!! There's no reason to
              have current members posting >here, it's quite clear. If anyone feels like
              discussing this, though, feel free. I'd also like to add - >because I think
              this paragraph expresses something we're all familiar with, although I know
              Mike just >doesn't see it - this is from a private post he sent me after I
              let him post the first one:

              Mike Wrote:
              >"Okay you posted it. Congratulations I think you made a great leap there.
              If you set groundrules to >allow no propaganda supporting Eckankar, some
              sign of open mindedness and no attacks on ex >members and also keep your own
              forum from insulting or trying to nail my ass to the wall things wont >end
              up like on your other site. You wouldn't be very different from what some
              allege about eckankar if >you won't allow an exchange of ideas. New blood is
              good It will make the whole environment better >and make some people think
              again.Favorite spiritual exercise - Lie on couch do Hu till i fall asleep
              >wake up 30 minutes later -seems to work for me "

              Sword Writes:
              I call that a good nap and will not argue the spiritual benefits of a
              nap....so long as you decide to wake up in reasonable amount of time! For
              myself, it took me 28 years to wake up from the eckankar nap!

              Sharon, I kinda agree with you on this one....If we wanted to hear the eck
              line we probably would not have left eckankar....or we could certainly go
              back to an eck site and listen and post......personally, I find them kinda
              cloneish and get so tired of the endless quotes and lack of individual
              thought.

              SNIP

              >Ho Ho Hugs,

              >Sharon

              Sword writes:
              HUGS back at ya Sharon!

              Sharon wrote:
              >PS - Mike, this ends it. Don't take this personally - but unless I get a
              response from the membership >saying they'd like more of this stuff here,
              well...this forum is for former members only once again.

              Good idea Sharon.
              Thanks,

              Sword
              "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
              people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
              - Douglas Adams
            • lemrag3 <lemrag3@hotmail.com>
              ... Methinks you are exaggerating a bit, Violin. Millions? I think not. And consider the turnover rate - most members eventually quit, many in pure disgust.
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 19, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                >For me Paul Twitchell was like a carpenter- No one believed it
                >but he built a piece of furniture that cobbled together as it may be
                >has stood and served millions for over 35 years.

                Methinks you are exaggerating a bit, Violin. Millions? I think
                not. And consider the turnover rate - most members eventually quit,
                many in pure disgust. And, think it through a bit - twitchell died
                long before the shit hit the fan. If he had lived, it would have been
                hilarious watching him tapdance his way through all the lawsuits that
                awaited him. No, eckankar didn't survive because of anything the twit
                did. It's survived because it's being run by a group of hardnosed
                businessmen who can afford to hire expensive management consultants
                and marketing firms and advertisers. Something so damned simple about
                the bare truth, huh?

                >Having never metPaul Twitchell I can only assume that you have or
                have chosen to
                >believe all the second hand information about him. No one ever
                >offered to teach me spiritual secrets of mastership before I dont
                >feel qualified to judge the benefits of intitiations, I am results
                >oriented I try and judge results for myself.

                Tell you what. If you someday manage to summon up the courage to
                actually apply yourself to discovering who and what God is, you may
                surprise yourself. You will learn that neither twitchell nor any other
                man can give you that. It's purely a thing achieved through your own
                effort. Until then, though, continue sending your money in to
                headquarters. And round up as many newbies as you can and have them
                send in their money, too. Thus is the way of the eck.

                >I never would have joined any other eastern group other than
                Transcendental Meditation--do >that too much and you'll be pretty much
                useless but mellow I don't give my support to lies deceit >and
                manipulation to me I am responsible for what I do including being open
                minded enough(maybe
                >just barely)to consider alternate opinions.

                eckankar is as eastern as McDonalds. It's watered down fast food for
                the gullible. It's odd that your hand didn't cramp up while typing
                that bit about not supporting lies or deceit. What planet are you
                from?

                <snip>

                >I have a better angle on dreams I usually dismissed as
                >mutterings of the subconscious. I still think some of them are but
                >some of them are much more Cult smult when and if I get to that day
                or point
                >I'll deal with it like everything else I have.

                The subconscious doesn't mutter. It's the biggest part of you, so you
                may someday
                wish to listen a bit more closely to it. And just a piece of friendy
                advice - listen
                yourself, don't pay klemp to interpret it for you.

                <snip>

                >Are my parents supporting a Catholic church that is rife with
                >abuse of alterboys as well as male dominant worship,empire vatican
                >building and world overpopulation when they toddle off to Christmas
                >eve mass?I have some opinions but its really not my place to say.

                You support eckankar and yet have the cojones to hurl stones at any
                other
                organization? What gall.

                <snip>

                Are or were Darwin Gross Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp the
                masters of nothing? Can't say I've really met any of them. If Mr
                Gross couldnt move forward and front a sucessful new group then the
                plane he spent the most time on was the Fragile Plane.

                <snip>

                Gross ran eckankar successfully for 10 years, building membership all
                the while. I'm sure you know this. And, of course, this is no
                compliment.

                >Earth has a whole lot of religions spiritual groups that want money.
                The salvation
                >army has set up a kettle in our neighborhood state run liquor store.
                Motto the
                >immortal words of Bto taking care of business EVeryday!

                Perhaps you should learn a bit about the Salvation Army before trying
                to lump
                them into klemp's con game. The Army is one of the most highly
                respected groups
                to be found anywhere. Their actions speak for themselves. And did you
                know that
                their CEO earns a whopping $13,000 per year? Wonder what klump knocks
                down.

                >Scientology now thats a scary organization. Wouldnt go near it
                >with a ten foot pole.

                Sure, it's scary. It's where twitchell worked and learned how to con
                the crowd.

                >Do you really think all my experiences were fantasy and self
                delusion? How harsh.
                >How sad. No path apparently teaches how to be kind.

                What do YOU think your experiences were? Nobody else's opinion is
                necessary. Read up
                on basic psychology, though, or talk to the Amazing Randi......we have
                an almost
                laughable ability to hoodwink ourselves. If I remember correctly,
                eck's patron
                saint, the shadowy rebazar tarzs once said experiences were worthless,
                only a
                rupee per bushel. So what if we have experiences? Who cares?

                <snip>

                >Happy winter soltise like holiday.."

                Hey, have a good one yourself! :-)

                -Charlie-
              • Sharon <brighttigress@yahoo.com>
                ... So true, Paul! I think Mike is one of these, and that s why I really have no desire to get into a discussion with current members, any more than I feel
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 20, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  > --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Olson,
                  > Broker" <broker84@c...> wrote:
                  > > Hi Sharon and all,
                  > >
                  > > It's been quite while since I've posted here and
                  > life is going great for me
                  > > lately. I have enjoyed what you all have written.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Nice to see you here, Paul!! BTW, the whole family
                  > is enjoying the star stuff!!
                  >
                  >
                  > I thought I'd just put
                  > > in my 2 cents worth regarding this mornings post
                  > from Sharon and Mike....
                  > >
                  >
                  > Thanks, and I'll be doing a lot of "snipping", just
                  > a few things I want to say...
                  >
                  > > Mike Writes:
                  > > >I never would have
                  > > > joined any other eastern group other than
                  > Transcendental Meditation--
                  > > > do that too much and you'll be pretty much
                  > useless but mellow I don't
                  > > > give my support to lies deceit and manipulation
                  > to me I am
                  > > > responsible for what I do including being open
                  > minded enough(maybe
                  > > > just barely)to consider alternate opinions.
                  > >
                  >
                  > In the "links" section here, there's a link to an
                  > excellent website by a former TMer. Just change a
                  > few names, and it's e-kult!
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Mike Writes:
                  > > > I have a better angle on dreams I usually
                  > dismissed as
                  > > > mutterings of the subconscious. I still think
                  > some of them are but
                  > > > some of them are much more ..
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > This is funny!! I thought the exact same thing when
                  > I was a member, because while some of my dreams were
                  > "real" and/or "meaningful", some were just mind-play
                  > and absolutely meaningless. It wasn't hard to tell
                  > the difference, really. But...according to the
                  > "teachings", *all* dreams had meaning, and were real
                  > journeys to other planes or whatever. Anyway, I
                  > brought this up at Satsang, and the HI was a bit
                  > speechless at first - but she finally said, yes,
                  > they all have meaning. I just couldn't swallow
                  > that. But I thought maybe I was the only one who
                  > had some "junk" dreams, too.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Sword Writes:
                  > > Hmmmm, what lead you to believe that the light and
                  > sound experiences could
                  > > cease to continue? And under what conditions
                  > would they cease to
                  > > continue?.....If you feel that these experiences
                  > are dependant upon your
                  > > affilliation with eckankar or with harold or
                  > whoever, then you have been
                  > > controlled and have freely given control of your
                  > spiritual growth to an
                  > > outside source.....this is an example of the
                  > subtle brain washing of
                  > > eckankar......I am certainly not saying that this
                  > has happened with you, or
                  > > anyone else, however, the quesiton needs to be
                  > looked at by anyone who
                  > > lables themselves as a "FOLLOWER" of anything or
                  > any path.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Just recently on one of the public ecklists, I saw a
                  > man tell a very eloquent story about how he got into
                  > the cult. Like me, he had "experiences" and no
                  > satisfactory explanation from anywhere else.
                  >
                  > My heart broke for this man, who has such a
                  > beautiful "soul" - like me, I don't doubt that what
                  > was so real & beautiful in the beginning will slowly
                  > and subtly be diminished and replaced by deceptive
                  > "ecksperience". I didn't even realize what was
                  > happening. It was totally incredible to get out of
                  > the cult, kick "the mahaunta" out of the way, and
                  > let the Light shine again!! It was there all along,
                  > waiting for me to wake up and open my eyes, and come
                  > back Home again.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > I still contend that most of the members of
                  > eckankar are innocent and
                  > > sincere seekers of truth who have been led to
                  > honestly believe that life
                  > > fits into the little eckankar box and that those
                  > outside the box are
                  > > starving souls who need to me shown the
                  > way.....

                  So true, Paul! I think Mike is one of these, and that's why I really have no desire to get into a discussion with current members, any more than I feel obligated to discuss anything with nice JW & Mormon missionaries, or basically nice Christian fundies, or nice atheists, or anyone else. If someone's maybe questioning, or genuinely interested in just chatting about our religions in general for the sake of learning & sharing, that's different.

                  I think when we get out maybe it's a lot easier to recognize how heavy e-kult was on wanting members to get out there and recruit, but not necessarily in a "pushy" way. I remember reading somewhere, words to the effect that we should just do our best, don't be too bummed out when people don't rush out & send for membership, because sometimes our missionary efforts wouldn't show results until a future incarnation. That's actually just a low-pressure sales pitch, having the salespeople focus on those most likely to buy the product.


                  BUT I also think that there
                  > > are a good many long time eckists who are
                  > spiritually dishonest people, who
                  > > DO know the truth about eckankar, and choose to
                  > ignore it, out of a yearning
                  > > for benefits that can be derived from their
                  > membership....stuff like selling
                  > > financial schemes, vitamins, monetary gain, easy
                  > sexual encounters, feelings
                  > > of power over others derived from status as a high
                  > initiate, etc...etc..I
                  > > met my share of these folks....

                  Klemp's at the top of the list of the "spiritually dishonest", and sets the example with ridiculous rationalizations like the way he "handles" the plagiarism issue.


                  >This is a danger of
                  > being a "follower"....you
                  > > really do give up a lot when you decide to
                  > "follow".....
                  > >

                  And total "surrender" is a major requirement of being an eckist.


                  > > If you propogate a teaching that you personally
                  > know is false, or at least
                  > > questionable, then you have decided to perpetrate
                  > the Lie....you are harming
                  > > others spiritually, and yourself as well. I rank
                  > Paul Twitchell, Darwin
                  > > Gross, and Harold Klemp in this catagory.....
                  > >

                  You know, I've corresponded with some very nice eckists who say privately they agree with everything former members say, but remain members. They say they wouldn't lie to newbies, I guess they feel maybe they'll help turn the Org around & get more honest, but I don't think that's possible. And I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would want to stay with it once they learn it's a crock, especially when there are so many honest alternatives available for spiritual growth, with no cultic strings and deception.


                  > >
                  > > Sword Writes:
                  > > I call that a good nap and will not argue the
                  > spiritual benefits of a
                  > > nap....so long as you decide to wake up in
                  > reasonable amount of time! For
                  > > myself, it took me 28 years to wake up from the
                  > eckankar nap!
                  > >

                  Yes, naps are great, aren't they? <ggg> And sometimes I guess it's more fun going to sleep when you're looking at pretty colors & images, and thinking once you're asleep you're gonna be going to all them thar high holey golden wisdom temples & cavort with "eckmasters". <ggg>


                  > > Sharon, I kinda agree with you on this one....If
                  > we wanted to hear the eck
                  > > line we probably would not have left
                  > eckankar....or we could certainly go
                  > > back to an eck site and listen and
                  > post......personally, I find them kinda
                  > > cloneish and get so tired of the endless quotes
                  > and lack of individual
                  > > thought.
                  > >

                  When I was a member, I thought I was an independent individual, not clonish at all - but when you're in it, you don't recognize that thinking eckists (including yourself) are unique individual-types is part of the cultic programming, so they don't "look" cultic to the rest of the world. But I look back now, remembering my thought processes, and reading my old posts as an eckist, and oh horrors I was ECKANBORG!!! Just didn't know it!!

                  > >
                  > > Sharon wrote:
                  > > >PS - Mike, this ends it. Don't take this
                  > personally - but unless I get a
                  > > response from the membership >saying they'd like
                  > more of this stuff here,
                  > > well...this forum is for former members only once
                  > again.
                  > >
                  > > Good idea Sharon.

                  I've been sitting here thinking about this whole thing, trying to figure out different scenarios - like when my kids were little and had to make a decision, I'd tell them to write down the different choices they could make, and under each, list all the possible results, and then just try to make the best decision they could.

                  I just thought I'd try this to see if anyone wanted to discuss things, thought perhaps it would result in good information for the public, which is always my main concern - it's been a bit "slow" here, which actually suits me just fine because I'm lazy and not that interested. <ggg> There's plenty of stuff on the internet, and I think just checking out the links & even the files here is more than enough to keep a "seeker" busy.

                  Anne just posed an interesting question, something I'm sure other former members have asked themselves, too. Maybe more discussion would be nice to see, like just tossing around thoughts & ideas, especially for "newbie" former members who are still working things out.

                  I just feel sort of bad about Mike - I think he wanted to post here because inside he was feeling threatened by us. A lot of eckists are. I don't quite understand that - I didn't feel threatened by non-believers & former members when I went to a.r.e., but most members do seem to feel that way. Sure, I was surprised, and at first I fell back on the cult programming about those who leave - but I quickly saw for myself that none of it was true.

                  Oh, well...this is enough, I guess!!

                  Well, if I don't get the opportunity before Christmas, I hope everyone has a wonderful joy & peace & love-filled holiday, however they choose to celebrate!

                  Ho Ho Hugs,

                  Sharon
                • Sharon <brighttigress@yahoo.com>
                  ... You know, in that hilarious piece of fiction In My Soul I Am Free , and on the covers, Twitch made highly inflated claims of membership and correspondence
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 20, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com, "lemrag3 <lemrag3@h...>" <lemrag3@h...> wrote:
                    > >For me Paul Twitchell was like a carpenter- No one believed it
                    > >but he built a piece of furniture that cobbled together as it may be
                    > >has stood and served millions for over 35 years.
                    >
                    > Methinks you are exaggerating a bit, Violin. Millions? I think
                    > not.

                    You know, in that hilarious piece of fiction "In My Soul I Am Free", and on the covers, Twitch made highly inflated claims of membership and correspondence he received. The book is full of blatant lies -
                    and it seems to me there's a hilarious blurb on the back cover claiming he was "master" to millions or something.

                    Anyway, this reminds me of something I received from a Delphi cult forum in 1998 - have to get the old 386's hard drive onto another computer, because that's where the "form letter" is. This "welcome" letter stated that attendance at seminars was down, and hotels were becoming unwilling to host cult seminars because members weren't spending enough money at them. I think not. I worked in the hotel business, and the point is to fill the rooms. I wonder what the *real* reason was? The only things I can think of which would make hotels unwilling to host a group is the possibility of extensive room damage or unpaid bills, or a group who is difficult and wants discount rates for prime season.

                    And I'm wondering about this little excerpt from the 2002 WW:

                    "Beginning
                    next year at Washington, D.C., ECKANKAR will combine the traditional
                    spring and summer seminars into just one gathering called, "The ECK
                    Spiritual Skills Seminar," (ESSS).

                    This seminar which will occur in March of 2003, will be the last seminar
                    offered on the east coast (at least for the near future). This D.C.
                    seminar and the World Wide (WW) in MN will be the only two seminars
                    offered in 2003.

                    The two seminars offered in 2004 will include the last seminar to be held
                    on the west coast (at least for the near future). The 2004 seminars
                    include the ESSS in San Diego, March 8-11th, and the WW in MN in October.
                    In 2005 both the ESSS and the WW will be held in MN. The ESSS sounds
                    like a very exciting concept offering 210 workshops, under 3 different
                    learning tracks; 1-the arts, 2-spiritual growth, and 3-leadership. Each
                    session of the seminar will begin with a HU song in the morning, and
                    dream homework at night. Sri Harold will appear at ESSS via satellite.

                    A youth panel consisting of Sunny Allen, Tao Drayton, and Jasmine Duzon
                    talked about "Road Trip to the Higher Worlds." 3 keys; 1-Do what you
                    love, and love what you do. 2-Trust the Mahanta and do your Spiritual
                    exercises. 3-Take the courage to be yourself. Doing service makes your
                    road trip smoother. What if you were preparing for a road trip, what
                    would you do?"

                    Now, who wants to bet that this new "ESSS" will focus on eckmissionary training? <ggg> Note the comment in the last paragraph: "Doing service makes your road trip smoother."

                    This is cultic recruiting, plain and simple, and today's version of Twitch's Wisdom Note, in the "files" section here, where he makes it quite clear that god-realization is achieved by recruiting new members.



                    >And consider the turnover rate - most members eventually quit,
                    > many in pure disgust. And, think it through a bit - twitchell died
                    > long before the shit hit the fan. If he had lived, it would have been
                    > hilarious watching him tapdance his way through all the lawsuits that
                    > awaited him. No, eckankar didn't survive because of anything the twit
                    > did. It's survived because it's being run by a group of hardnosed
                    > businessmen who can afford to hire expensive management consultants
                    > and marketing firms and advertisers. Something so damned simple about
                    > the bare truth, huh?
                    >

                    Oh...I'll have to check it out if I had time, but someone told me there's been interesting stuff posted at Bill Flavell's Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The1983EckankarSplit and /Ancient TeachingsOfTheMasters) regarding the cabal of businessmen, led by Skelsky, who are currently running the cult and laughing all the way to the bank.

                    Remember, Twitch sort of wanted to get out of it - I forget the exact details, but evidently he'd given himself a time limit as LEM, and when this date came, he extended it a bit - which upset some members at the time, and many left.

                    It would have been *very* interesting if he'd lived, wouldn't it?



                    > >Having never metPaul Twitchell I can only assume that you have or
                    > have chosen to
                    > >believe all the second hand information about him. No one ever
                    > >offered to teach me spiritual secrets of mastership before I dont
                    > >feel qualified to judge the benefits of intitiations, I am results
                    > >oriented I try and judge results for myself.
                    >

                    If you read a lot of what he's written, for example the transcriptions of tapes in "Difficulties of Becoming the Living Eck Master", and take off the "master" blinders, he reveals himself for the arrogant, jealous, vindictive little money-grubber he really was.


                    > Tell you what. If you someday manage to summon up the courage to
                    > actually apply yourself to discovering who and what God is, you may
                    > surprise yourself. You will learn that neither twitchell nor any other
                    > man can give you that. It's purely a thing achieved through your own
                    > effort. Until then, though, continue sending your money in to
                    > headquarters. And round up as many newbies as you can and have them
                    > send in their money, too. Thus is the way of the eck.
                    >

                    I hope anyone who hasn't seen it checks out http://www.geocities.com/eckcult/masters.html
                    >
                    > <snip>
                    >
                    > >I have a better angle on dreams I usually dismissed as
                    > >mutterings of the subconscious. I still think some of them are but
                    > >some of them are much more Cult smult when and if I get to that day
                    > or point
                    > >I'll deal with it like everything else I have.
                    >
                    > The subconscious doesn't mutter. It's the biggest part of you, so you
                    > may someday
                    > wish to listen a bit more closely to it. And just a piece of friendy
                    > advice - listen
                    > yourself, don't pay klemp to interpret it for you.
                    >

                    It's sort of hilarious the way the cult takes something that people generally do naturally, on their own, like breathing, and tries to turn it into some kind of copyrighted "speshul spirichul" stuff.

                    As we go through life, we take in things from many sources. They all get stored in our minds, and we use them to learn & grow and come to various conclusions about various things, and we can also change our minds & learn & grow even more as we go through life. All this emphasis on a speshul "mahaunta" controlled "inner" is a bunch of bullshit.



                    > <snip>
                    >
                    > >Are my parents supporting a Catholic church that is rife with
                    > >abuse of alterboys as well as male dominant worship,empire vatican
                    > >building and world overpopulation when they toddle off to Christmas
                    > >eve mass?I have some opinions but its really not my place to say.
                    >
                    > You support eckankar and yet have the cojones to hurl stones at any
                    > other
                    > organization? What gall.
                    >

                    HA! Twitch envied the Vatican *and* the Mormon Tabernacle - see "Letters to a Chela" (link in links section) - and if the cult ever gets its own private school built in MN, considering the cult's past & present, it's going to be just as rife with scandal as anything else. There's some excellent information on the internet about TM's college, too.

                    It's hilarious how the cult feels perfectly justified in conducting its modern version of the Inquisition, and a bunch of other stuff, by whining about how everyone else already did it.


                    > <snip>
                    >
                    > Are or were Darwin Gross Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp the
                    > masters of nothing? Can't say I've really met any of them. If Mr
                    > Gross couldnt move forward and front a sucessful new group then the
                    > plane he spent the most time on was the Fragile Plane.
                    >

                    Twitch was a master con artist. Of course, Gail was probably more of an influence on Darwin! <ggg> Klemp is a joke.


                    > <snip>
                    >
                    > Gross ran eckankar successfully for 10 years, building membership all
                    > the while. I'm sure you know this. And, of course, this is no
                    > compliment.
                    >
                    > >Earth has a whole lot of religions spiritual groups that want money.
                    > The salvation
                    > >army has set up a kettle in our neighborhood state run liquor store.
                    > Motto the
                    > >immortal words of Bto taking care of business EVeryday!
                    >
                    > Perhaps you should learn a bit about the Salvation Army before trying
                    > to lump
                    > them into klemp's con game. The Army is one of the most highly
                    > respected groups
                    > to be found anywhere. Their actions speak for themselves. And did you
                    > know that
                    > their CEO earns a whopping $13,000 per year? Wonder what klump knocks
                    > down.
                    >
                    > >Scientology now thats a scary organization. Wouldnt go near it
                    > >with a ten foot pole.
                    >
                    > Sure, it's scary. It's where twitchell worked and learned how to con
                    > the crowd.
                    >
                    > >Do you really think all my experiences were fantasy and self
                    > delusion? How harsh.
                    > >How sad. No path apparently teaches how to be kind.
                    >
                    > What do YOU think your experiences were? Nobody else's opinion is
                    > necessary. Read up
                    > on basic psychology, though, or talk to the Amazing Randi......we have
                    > an almost
                    > laughable ability to hoodwink ourselves. If I remember correctly,
                    > eck's patron
                    > saint, the shadowy rebazar tarzs once said experiences were worthless,
                    > only a
                    > rupee per bushel. So what if we have experiences? Who cares?
                    >
                    > <snip>
                    >
                    > >Happy winter soltise like holiday.."
                    >

                    Oh, shit - when's winter solstice? I keep missing opportunities to do nekkid pagan rituals!



                    > Hey, have a good one yourself! :-)
                    >
                    > -Charlie-

                    Thanks for posting, Charlie! Gawd, this is all so boring, isn't it? <ggg>

                    Ho Ho Hugs!!

                    Sharon
                  • lemrag3 <lemrag3@hotmail.com>
                    ... Sharon An interesting post, Sharon. And what a deal these eckist people
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 21, 2002
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                      --- In eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com,
                      "Sharon <brighttigress@y...>" <
                      brighttigress@y...> wrote:

                      >
                      > And I'm wondering about this little excerpt from the 2002 WW:
                      >
                      > "Beginning
                      > next year at Washington, D.C., ECKANKAR will combine the traditional
                      > spring and summer seminars into just one gathering called, "The ECK
                      > Spiritual Skills Seminar," (ESSS).

                      <SNIP all the eCrap seminar cancellation
                      notices>

                      An interesting post, Sharon. And what a
                      deal these eckist people get!!!! Wow, they
                      get to see their MASTER on tv via satellite. I
                      mean, does life get any better than this?
                      The only thing more wonderful than seeing
                      hairy klump on tv would
                      be.....uh.....uhm......watching grass grow.

                      Cancelling all those fun sex-in-the-sun
                      seminars is going to break a lot of eckie
                      hearts, though. Without their fix, they'll be
                      climbing the walls.

                      > This is cultic recruiting, plain and simple, and today's version of
                      Twitch's >Wisdom Note, in the "files" section here, where he makes it
                      quite clear >that god-realization is achieved by recruiting new
                      members.
                      >

                      Isn't it odd how only members have
                      difficulty in seeing the extent of the
                      recruitment energies? Christ, any class of
                      1st graders would see in a minute what this
                      is.

                      >
                      > Oh...I'll have to check it out if I had time, but someone told me
                      there's been interesting stuff posted at Bill Flavell's Yahoo Groups
                      (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The1983EckankarSplit and /Ancient
                      TeachingsOfTheMasters) regarding the cabal of businessmen, led by
                      Skelsky, who are currently running the cult and laughing all the way
                      to the bank.
                      >

                      Flavell's a darwin asskisser. He's got a
                      ways to go, yet, before he
                      can reclaim his brain from the cult.

                      > Remember, Twitch sort of wanted to get out of it - I forget the
                      exact >details, but evidently he'd given himself a time limit as LEM,
                      and when >this date came, he extended it a bit - which upset some
                      members at the time, and many left.
                      >

                      He had to have known that his vast
                      plagiarism would be found out by the
                      general public and/or media. I'm sure he
                      had plans to suddenly sort of disappear,
                      dragging as many suitcases full of loot as he
                      could. It's why, I suspect, it's written in the
                      ick teachings that eCrap has had to go
                      underground at various times in history - To
                      avoid the angry posse of people who have
                      been fleeced.

                      >
                      > If you read a lot of what he's written, for example the
                      transcriptions of tapes in "Difficulties of Becoming the Living Eck
                      Master", and take off the "master" blinders, he reveals himself for
                      the arrogant, jealous, vindictive little money-grubber he really was.
                      >

                      True to this. It was a crudely written book
                      and hastily withdrawn from publication once
                      klump and his shysters saw just how
                      revealing it was.


                      >
                      > Twitch was a master con artist. Of course, Gail was probably more
                      of an influence on Darwin! <ggg> Klemp is a joke.
                      >

                      *grin*.....wonderful how you can sum up
                      the entirety of eCrap in three short
                      sentences.

                      >
                      > Oh, shit - when's winter solstice? I keep missing opportunities to
                      do >nekkid pagan rituals!
                      >

                      Can I be your agent? We can try to sell
                      this event to HBO or Showtime. There's
                      gotta be some money to be made here
                      somewhere!

                      >
                      > Thanks for posting, Charlie! Gawd, this is all so boring, isn't
                      it? <ggg>
                      >

                      Tis true. I'd rather be chewing on an old
                      shoe.

                      > Ho Ho Hugs!!
                      >
                      > Sharon

                      Heh heh heh :-)

                      -Charlie-
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