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Re: "Happiness" in Eckankar, But at What Price?

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  • colleenmft
    Or, he or she may decide to leave for a time until further assistance is requested. Colleen ... is ... kind? ... sabotaging ... that ... and ... maturity ...
    Message 1 of 12 , May 31, 2002
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      Or, he or she may decide to leave for a time until further assistance
      is requested.

      Colleen
      --- In eckankartruth@y..., "colleenmft" <colleenmft@y...> wrote:
      > The essential component in eckankar and other authoritarian groups
      is
      > that the leader exploits the "target" or "member" through playing
      > upon the need to be taken care of. Is this ethical? Is this
      kind?
      > Is this necessary? In my work with clients, I encourage each to
      > discover more of herself, and to heal innacurate and self-
      sabotaging
      > beliefs. Although the client and I form a genuine bond, I know
      that
      > one day, at his or her choice, the decision will be made to leave
      and
      > this is as it should be.
      >
      > Colleen
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "hfloyd2002" <hfloydlrod@a...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Colleen,
      > >
      > > you are right, a teacher should be willing to coach and then set
      > the
      > > the students free once they are equipped with just enough
      maturity
      > to
      > > fly out of the nest and continue to grow- wherever that takes
      them.
      > > However, there is also that human condition whereby even a good
      > > teacher will encounter those individuals who are looking for
      > > something outside of themselves to identify with.
      > >
      > > For those looking to "be taken care of", or for "someone who will
      > do
      > > the work for me and make my decisions", they will look until they
      > > find such a person or teacher unless/until they are willing to
      take
      > > responsibility for themselves. They will look for any number of
      > > different authoritarian systems or relationships.
      > >
      > > Everyone is at their own stage of "growing up" ( or not) both as
      an
      > > adult and as a spritual being. As I've said before, the
      > authoritarian
      > > model is everywhere, and the individual has the choice as to how
      > far
      > > they will go down that path and surrender their mental abilities
      > and
      > > thought processes. I do believe we make those choices, and we
      > > eventually learn from them. It is part of the growing process.
      > >
      > > Love and Blessings,
      > >
      > > Helen
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "colleenmft" <colleenmft@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Helen,
      > > >
      > > > Please excuse me if I missed something, but I am tired
      tonight....
      > > >
      > > > When a techer is truly invested in supporting the student until
      > he
      > > is
      > > > free to go and soar on his own, then the students will have a
      > > > different set of values and appreciation.
      > > >
      > > > "Students" from a teacher who truly wishes to "set her students
      > > free"
      > > > are not going to be caught by guilt or fear...
      > > >
      > > > Not all students are the same in consciousness as those who
      have
      > > the
      > > > unfortunate experience of "surrendering" to an authoritarian
      > > teacher.
      > > >
      > > > Colleen
      > > > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "hfloyd2002" <hfloydlrod@a...> wrote:
      > > > > Ahhh- a suspected "infiltrator at large" I see.
      > > > > I've stated this in a previous posting-
      > > > > No, I'm not a member any longer. I've been one of those
      silent
      > > > members
      > > > > here for some time though, and have corresponded with Sharon
      on
      > > and
      > > > > off. If you really look at other belief systems, however,
      > > > especially
      > > > > those of eastern origen - quite a few of them will " sound
      like
      > > an
      > > > > Eckist " to you I would wager- especially some of the sufi
      > > > > traditions. All of the information contained in Eck ( as you
      > all
      > > > know
      > > > > by heart) is available from a wide array of sources and from
      > > > different
      > > > > paths- its not new- and just because it happens to be part of
      > > the
      > > > ECK
      > > > > teaching- does not mean it does not have value.Go to other
      > > sources
      > > > and
      > > > > follow up.
      > > > >
      > > > > I made the point earlier- that it does not really matter
      > what
      > > > > religion or path you investigate- you will find the same
      sorts
      > of
      > > > > people there as you find in Eck, and that is simply the human
      > > > > condition. If someone is seeking "perfection" in human
      behavior
      > > > within
      > > > > a group ( any group), then it will be a long and frustrating
      > > road.
      > > > I
      > > > > also don't think that it is a "crime" in any sense to allow
      > that
      > > > > Eckankar may be a valid system for those who really want it-
      in
      > > > spite
      > > > > of its problems.It does not fit me any longer, but for those
      > who
      > > > are
      > > > > happy and in full knowledge of Eck origens, well- then, let
      > them
      > > > be.
      > > > >
      > > > > Love and Blessings,
      > > > >
      > > > > Helen
    • Randy Cable
      Helen s post reads ecky to me. It is misleading to write that many eckies do not think that the Mahaunta oops, mahanta is not the greatest state of
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 1, 2002
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        Helen's post reads "ecky" to me. It is misleading to
        write that many eckies do not think that the Mahaunta
        oops, mahanta is not the greatest state of
        consciousness. Being Spirit that assumes the form of
        the LEMon or other guide for whomever, has always been
        taught this in the Holey Scriptures of Eckankar. It
        has been taught for decades that Mahanta comes as
        Buddha to Buddhists, Christ to Christians and so on.
        If a person were to teach at a worship service with
        words that downplay Eckankar's views of the Mahanta,
        then that person would not be long welcomed. I know
        this to be a fact because a seeker named, Maria Cuman
        was asked to leave when she asked the arahata some
        questions and challenged the answers she was given.
        The request for her never to return was by way of
        phone call she recieved at home later that Sunday.
        Randy
        >
        >
        --- colleen russell <colleenmft@...> wrote:
        > Thanks for your response, Helen. I just wanted to
        > ask
        > if you are a member in eckankar, as it sounds to me
        > like you may be.
        >
        > Colleen
        >
        >
        > --- hfloyd2002 <hfloydlrod@...> wrote:
        > > Colleen,
        > >
        > > I understand your point- however- you are assuming
        > > that EVERYONE in
        > > Eckankar follows an authoritarian role model. NOT
        > > all members do. In
        > > fact, I've seen several posts from members who
        > > wholly discount the
        > > Mahanta/Master /Guru or whatever as the ultimate
        > in
        > > spiritual and
        > > physical world say-so.
        > > Whether it is Eckankar,Sant Mat or Catholicism-
        > > I've seen the SAME
        > > kind of people "Worship" the authoritarian
        > > figurehead. It also makes
        > > no difference as to what religion or path is
        > picked
        > > as an example for
        > > the freedom of expression point you made. In a
        > > fundamentalist
        > > religion, in Catholicism, Buddhism, Islam etc- the
        > > "group mentality"
        > > is going to defend is way of life and is going to
        > > make it difficult
        > > for those with a different view or understanding
        > to
        > > express
        > > themselves-period.
        > > If, in truth one is seeking after a relationship
        > > with God then they
        > > are going to do so in the path ( or non-path) that
        > > feels most
        > > comfortable. As I've stated before, I've met a few
        > > very exceptional
        > > people with very high standards of conduct within
        > > Eckankar, and I
        > > don't believe they represent any smaller
        > percentage
        > > of good people
        > > within that path than you will find in any other.
        > > The same goes for
        > > the nasties.
        > > Not everyone is a "cult-head", and as I've also
        > > stated before
        > > recently- I believe the term is overused and
        > > somewhat misunderstood.
        > > For those who have looked at all of the
        > information
        > > on the plagiarism,
        > > who choose not to engage in "master worship" and
        > > feel comfortable with
        > > the way the different pholosophies have been
        > pulled
        > > together in Eck-
        > > then yes- they are happy and should be left as
        > such
        > > until they choose
        > > to do differently. For my own situtation, it
        > works.
        > > They understand my
        > > point after much conversation , I understand
        > > theirs.
        > >
        > > Love and Blessings,
        > >
        > > Helen
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
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      • brighttigress
        ... Well, Randy, it s not unusual for people to leave the cult & still hold some of the same beliefs, and to use eckspeak to communicate them. I read Helen s
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 2, 2002
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          --- In eckankartruth@y..., Randy Cable <doodah952000@y...> wrote:
          > Helen's post reads "ecky" to me.

          Well, Randy, it's not unusual for people to leave the cult & still hold some of the same beliefs, and to use eckspeak to communicate them.

          I read Helen's post yesterday, had some thoughts & probably tomorrow will respond.


          >It is misleading to
          > write that many eckies do not think that the Mahaunta
          > oops, mahanta is not the greatest state of
          > consciousness.

          I think when we're cult members, we somehow are taught to believe one thing inside, but to say another thing to the public. And this "mahaunta" thing is one of them. The "consciousness" stuff is bleated to the public, but what eckists believe about Harold is different - and Harold even provides plenty of quotes showing this, some of which can be found at eckankarsurvivors - either at http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/eckankarsurvivors/masterlie.html or at one of the links from there. Gotta do a new & more organized website, and one of those "site map" things.


          Being Spirit that assumes the form of
          > the LEMon or other guide for whomever, has always been
          > taught this in the Holey Scriptures of Eckankar.

          I think it's necessary every so often to remind people that the correct spelling is "holy". I misspell it as "holey" to be insulting, because of all the "holes" in it. I've got that darn pesky spelling gene. A lot of people don't know the difference, though. And it's not that important, actually, most of the time.

          Anyway, it's very comforting and "uplifting" to think that if you saw Klemp in a dream that it was "spirichul", isn't it?

          Well...that's just not true. Sure, it's nice to think that this stuff is "holy spirit" but we're just flattering ourselves, and Klemp. It's just as likely to be evil black magicians & witches & warlocks doing that black magic dream invasion stuff Klemp warns people about. Twitch Himself wrote about pesky astral entities who like to play tricks on silly humans.

          "Holy Spirit" doesn't need to take *any* form.


          It
          > has been taught for decades that Mahanta comes as
          > Buddha to Buddhists, Christ to Christians and so on.

          "Being taught for decades" implies some type of "history" and legitimacy. Let me reword this - the Twitchster incorporated this "belief" into his cult's "teachings" back in the 60's.

          The "mahanta" is simply a copyrighted cult-word. The "teachings" imply that the "real mahanta" is Klemp, or whoever holds the big EckDick of Power, and if people see someone other than Klemp, it's because they couldn't handle his masterly power flows & true "form" so they see "lower" people they're sort of "used to".

          I've got a cutesy eckquote somewhere at eckankarsurvivors with Klemp saying something about someone's inner voice not being "him" if it doesn't agree with the Official Cult Party Line.



          > If a person were to teach at a worship service with
          > words that downplay Eckankar's views of the Mahanta,
          > then that person would not be long welcomed. I know
          > this to be a fact because a seeker named, Maria Cuman
          > was asked to leave when she asked the arahata some
          > questions and challenged the answers she was given.
          > The request for her never to return was by way of
          > phone call she recieved at home later that Sunday.


          Not surprising - do you by any chance know the exact questions she asked? When I attended Arahata training, an older gentlemen brought up some items for discussion that seemed pure "eck" to me, and a lively discussion started, but for some reason the HIs doing the class seemed disturbed and got back to the class script. Well, after the class was over, at a Satsang conducted by an HI who wasn't there, she said she was happy that most people had "passed" the course, and she was honest and said one person didnt'. Well, I was surprised and asked who & why, and she said it was this guy, because he was "disruptive" or something, which he wasn't. I was sort of confused & very surprised, but the HI changed the subject.

          I wondered, because at lunch break I'd gone into the lounge for coffee & a cigarette, and he came in and told me it would be a good thing if I didn't let other eckies see me smoking. I was surprised, because although I knew smoking was a "sin" I thought it was between me & the "mahanta", and believe me, I was very bothered by it and worked *so* hard on quitting, without success. I was surprised at his advice because I said, why? I don't make a secret of it, and it's between me & The Big M. The whole thing confused me - he said it would cause problems with me & the Org & other eckies.

          It was sort of like when I used to babysit for a very orthodox Jewish group at a resort which they rented for Passover & the whole place was "blessed" and kosher, etc., and the men weren't supposed to smoke (probably the women weren't either, but they didn't) so on the special holy days they'd go outside in the bushes to smoke, although the grounds had been "blessed" too. I thought it was odd - because certainly God could see them in the bushes with their ciggies!!

          If I were an orthodox Jew, well...I guess I'd be a lousy one because I wouldn't smoke in the bushes. If I'm going to "sin" I don't make a big secret of it, you know? I mean, fer crissakes, God knows & sees *everything*!!!!

          <giggle> God is "omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent".

          That's an eckquote actually - supposedly the LEMons are Triple O's, but especially when I was leaving I got *so* much proof that, as I'd suspected over the years, that wasn't true - because as I was leaving I got conflicting hilarious emails from other eckists with special "messages" from the "mahanta" especially the one from Clergyboy Rich saying he'd gotten one of them thar inner "nudges" from the "mahanta" to tell me I should be teaching Satsang. I had to laugh, because it was *so* obvious that neither Richieboy nor the "mahanta" had the slightest clue about what was going on inside me! And...how could I decide which of those "messages from the mahanta" were "true" because they were all so different! All I could do was laugh!!!!

          Well, tomorrow I will make time to comment on the things I feel I should comment on.

          'Night, all!!!

          Hugs,

          Sharon
        • brighttigress
          ... This whole sentence, to me, is expressing some sort of mixed-up thinking when applied to teachers. It s not the place of a teacher to either enslave or
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 2, 2002
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            --- In eckankartruth@y..., "hfloyd2002" <hfloydlrod@a...> wrote:
            >
            > Colleen,
            >
            > you are right, a teacher should be willing to coach and then set the
            > the students free once they are equipped with just enough maturity to
            > fly out of the nest and continue to grow- wherever that takes them.


            This whole sentence, to me, is expressing some sort of mixed-up thinking when applied to teachers. It's not the place of a teacher to either enslave or set a student free, exactly -

            The way the cult hypes the LEM/M, it's certainly not a "normal" adult student/teacher relationship.

            A little moth just crawled under my "backspace" key, before I could "shoo" it. I wonder what's going to happen?



            > However, there is also that human condition whereby even a good
            > teacher will encounter those individuals who are looking for
            > something outside of themselves to identify with.
            >

            In e-kult, Twitch had already identified the type of person who would be most susceptible to falling for his nonsense and joining the cult. It's all right there in LC, and scattered throughout the "teachings" along with the missionary indoctrination lessons the cult uses to turn human beings into good but somewhat subtle cult recruiters. Klemp was well-indoctrinated, and today's recruiting message is still following Twitch's model, to specifically appeal to this part of people, and by golly even if they're fine when they start out, the cult quickly changes them into someone who *will* over-ride their own identities with the cult member identity.


            > For those looking to "be taken care of", or for "someone who will do
            > the work for me and make my decisions", they will look until they
            > find such a person or teacher unless/until they are willing to take
            > responsibility for themselves. They will look for any number of
            > different authoritarian systems or relationships.
            >

            This type of person turns out to be the "perfect" cult member, who stays with it. Just look at the "teachings". The "outer" e-kult member is told & believes & babbles how they are so free and independent, while inside they work very hard at turning themselves into a well-programmed cult member who believes in and follows the Official Cult Party Line. I mean...look at all the silly nonsense the cult uses, like telling members to open an eckbook, close your eyes and point your finger, and get an answer to your question. Or looking for "waking dreams" or "golden-tongued wisdom".

            The cult very obviously cultivates dependency on itself, and slavery in its members. Just look at the "break" policy - sure, you can take up to five years off from membership/spiritual growth, but you're warned that you'll be at a spiritual standstill while paid-up cult members go zooming higher & higher. After five years, kaboom - you've "lost it" and have to start back at the beginning.



            > Everyone is at their own stage of "growing up" ( or not) both as an
            > adult and as a spritual being. As I've said before, the authoritarian
            > model is everywhere, and the individual has the choice as to how far
            > they will go down that path and surrender their mental abilities and
            > thought processes. I do believe we make those choices, and we
            > eventually learn from them. It is part of the growing process.
            >


            The individual who gets mixed up in a deceptive cult has handed over his free will and opened himself to the cult's influence and control over his mental abilities and thought processes. You can't totally blame people for falling victim to skillfull deception and lies.

            I remember when I first got mixed up in it - well, something inside me fought against it, and you know, maybe you could say the part of me that wanted to fight back was "soul" working instinctively. We should all be familiar with some of the bullshit Twitch wrote about "problems" at the beginning, which he said was our "KAL" selves resisting the inflow of "Spirit". On the contrary, I think this is simply maybe our "higher selves" reacting just the way our physical bodies would if some criminal entered our homes while we were sleeping, and started to tie us up or something.

            The cult uses our *conscious* minds to work to stomp down our own good instincts, to work on implanting its "teachings" into our subconscious minds where they can begin to take over and "direct" us in the way the cult wants to. And we were taught this was the "mahanta". Bullshit.

            For some reason, I'm thinking of changing tires. Sure, when I was very young I was told that changing tires (and a lot of other things) were men's work. Well...I hadn't even been driving for that long when I got rid of *that* particular bit of programming!! My basic nature is to be independent & self-reliant. Always was, always will be.

            And I remember when my son was 5 or 6, and it was time to put on my snow tires. I said, "David, it's time you learned how to change a tire." Well..my little guy was *so* cute! He said, "Mom - I can do it myself!!" It was sweet. I stood back and watched as he climbed into the back seat of my hatchback (which I couldn't open) and managed to get out the snow tire I carried as a spare. And he did it *all* himself, except one or two of the lug nuts were a bit tight, and I showed him how you hold up one end of the star-wrench for leverage, and put your foot & weight on the other arm to get the tight ones loose.

            And how does changing tires apply to the cult? Well...sure, in later years I discovered AAA, because sometimes you need towing. <gg> And as long as you're paying for it and not in a hurry, and have the flat near a phone & civilization, why not let some guy do the dirty work? <ggg>

            Triple-A doesn't tell you that you're gonna be lost in flat-tire hell without membership. Well, actually, there probably *are* AAA members who believe that. Oh...this is *so* funny, I just remembered years ago, a female HI said Triple-A is a single woman's best friend. By that time, I had my own membership and I was a bit worried because I'd broken down & needed towing a few times and they sent me a form letter suggesting I should get some maintenance done on my car to cut down on the towing. She laughed & said she'd been getting those letters a lot for years, but ignored them & didn't care. Hey, if I'd had the money I'd have fixed the car sooner! You know, I felt sort of ashamed of myself when this HI told another story about calling her ex-husband (when they were still married) at work, hysterical & asking for help because there was a bear on the deck. Well...it was a busy Saturday night and the man owned a very popular & busy restaurant and couldn't exactly leave - the bear would have been gone again. Bears often get on people's decks. So you stay inside & watch them. I thought she was silly & helpless, but on the other hand I remembered when I was younger and had a pathological fear of big disgusting wolf spiders in the house - something which interfered with my life, so I had to work at overcoming it, and did. Long before the cult. Of course, this same HI years later is the one who smirked arrogantly about "hu-ing" at a credit card company who didn't correct an error on her bill quickly enough to suit her - this was at a worship service, and the whole group was impressed about this story. The thing is, there was nothing about love & gratitude for help with an annoying situation. There was no recognition that credit cards sometimes make mistakes, and the people working there are doing the best they can, they're just people like everyone else, they're not "the enemy" out to get you. Anyway, stuff like this really turned me off to the "worship services" I'd been so happy when they started them. I'd been keeping my mouth shut, but it was my young son who finally, after one of them, said he didn't like them and didn't feel "spirit" was there.

            And I remembered that story the Twitchster had told, about how the credit card company which had dared demand that he pay a bill which he *did* run up, went broke, and it was the "wrath of the ECK" for daring to mess with the "mahanta".

            You know, I sort of lost the train of thought I had when I started to respond to this, because I've been up & down doing other things...

            I gotta go!

            Hugs,

            Sharon
          • hfloyd2002
            DEar Randy, I ve stated before- that many different teachings will sound like EcK to any one who is sensitive to that. You and everyone else is going to
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 4, 2002
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              DEar Randy,

              I 've stated before- that many different teachings will "sound like
              EcK" to any one who is sensitive to that. You and everyone else is
              going to read whatever you like into my posts, though I've tried to be
              specific. I actually never cared what the specific Eck teachings are
              with respect to the LEM or what has been given as "guidance" in
              previous years - I always put it in my own context until it did'nt
              work any more- sort of like those Catholics who choose to do their own
              thing with birth control etc. There are plenty of people who "take the
              good and leave the bad" within any system. In fact, that is probably
              how most people need to operate- since I doubt that anyone agrees 100%
              with everything that any religion has put into words over the years.
              I prefer to use "Spirit" or "Holy Spirit" rather than Eck.

              THere is a group called EckankarChat ( I think it's public) , that,
              if you scroll through the archives, you will see an exact example of a
              member stating publicly that he does not believe the LEM is God.
              I've also heard the same from other open-minded Eckists, in addition
              to it being my own opinion.


              Love and Blessings,

              Helen











              --- In eckankartruth@y..., Randy Cable <doodah952000@y...> wrote:
              > Helen's post reads "ecky" to me. It is misleading to
              > write that many eckies do not think that the Mahaunta
              > oops, mahanta is not the greatest state of
              > consciousness. Being Spirit that assumes the form of
              > the LEMon or other guide for whomever, has always been
              > taught this in the Holey Scriptures of Eckankar. It
              > has been taught for decades that Mahanta comes as
              > Buddha to Buddhists, Christ to Christians and so on.
              > If a person were to teach at a worship service with
              > words that downplay Eckankar's views of the Mahanta,
              > then that person would not be long welcomed. I know
              > this to be a fact because a seeker named, Maria Cuman
              > was asked to leave when she asked the arahata some
              > questions and challenged the answers she was given.
              > The request for her never to return was by way of
              > phone call she recieved at home later that Sunday.
              > Randy
              > >
              > >
              > --- colleen russell <colleenmft@y...> wrote:
              > > Thanks for your response, Helen. I just wanted to
              > > ask
              > > if you are a member in eckankar, as it sounds to me
              > > like you may be.
              > >
              > > Colleen
              > >
              > >
              > > --- hfloyd2002 <hfloydlrod@a...> wrote:
              > > > Colleen,
              > > >
              > > > I understand your point- however- you are assuming
              > > > that EVERYONE in
              > > > Eckankar follows an authoritarian role model. NOT
              > > > all members do. In
              > > > fact, I've seen several posts from members who
              > > > wholly discount the
              > > > Mahanta/Master /Guru or whatever as the ultimate
              > > in
              > > > spiritual and
              > > > physical world say-so.
              > > > Whether it is Eckankar,Sant Mat or Catholicism-
              > > > I've seen the SAME
              > > > kind of people "Worship" the authoritarian
              > > > figurehead. It also makes
              > > > no difference as to what religion or path is
              > > picked
              > > > as an example for
              > > > the freedom of expression point you made. In a
              > > > fundamentalist
              > > > religion, in Catholicism, Buddhism, Islam etc- the
              > > > "group mentality"
              > > > is going to defend is way of life and is going to
              > > > make it difficult
              > > > for those with a different view or understanding
              > > to
              > > > express
              > > > themselves-period.
              > > > If, in truth one is seeking after a relationship
              > > > with God then they
              > > > are going to do so in the path ( or non-path) that
              > > > feels most
              > > > comfortable. As I've stated before, I've met a few
              > > > very exceptional
              > > > people with very high standards of conduct within
              > > > Eckankar, and I
              > > > don't believe they represent any smaller
              > > percentage
              > > > of good people
              > > > within that path than you will find in any other.
              > > > The same goes for
              > > > the nasties.
              > > > Not everyone is a "cult-head", and as I've also
              > > > stated before
              > > > recently- I believe the term is overused and
              > > > somewhat misunderstood.
              > > > For those who have looked at all of the
              > > information
              > > > on the plagiarism,
              > > > who choose not to engage in "master worship" and
              > > > feel comfortable with
              > > > the way the different pholosophies have been
              > > pulled
              > > > together in Eck-
              > > > then yes- they are happy and should be left as
              > > such
              > > > until they choose
              > > > to do differently. For my own situtation, it
              > > works.
              > > > They understand my
              > > > point after much conversation , I understand
              > > > theirs.
              > > >
              > > > Love and Blessings,
              > > >
              > > > Helen
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
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