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  • aneini613hashem
    Hi everyone.... just a quick note to introduce myself... My name is Shayna-Rochel. I was born into an eck family. I was raised as a eckist for most of my
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 10, 2002
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      Hi everyone....
      just a quick note to introduce myself...
      My name is Shayna-Rochel. I was born into an eck family. I was
      raised as a eckist for most of my life until I decided it wasn't for
      me in my mid to late 20s. Both my brother and his wife and my father
      and his wife and family are all still hooked. And sadly because of
      that they are not capable (for whatever spiritual precept.....give me
      a break) of having anything to do with me. I am estranged from my
      father for well over 10 years now. It hurts deeply.
      I sought out this group because I am still in the midst of dealing
      with wading through all the stuff I was told growing up. I am hoping
      this might be a supportive safe place for an ex-eckist.
      I hope everyone is well,
      Shayna-Rochel
    • Bud Ellis
      ... This seems to be the Eck pattern. There was a lady who gave Eckankar hundreds of thousands in cash and property and who had a disagreement with the then
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 10, 2002
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        > And sadly because of
        >that they are not capable (for whatever spiritual precept.....give me
        >a break) of having anything to do with me. I am estranged from my
        >father for well over 10 years now. It hurts deeply.

        This seems to be the Eck pattern. There was a lady who gave Eckankar
        hundreds of thousands in cash and property and who had a disagreement with
        the then LEM. he wouldn't even call her back on her death bed. You can
        find other such examples in the files. When someone has to be so
        authoritative, so totalitarian, and so dictatorial that they cannot handle
        any difference of opinion, you know they are wrong. It is this simple:
        they are playing God and God can't be wrong.

        I know the feeling. I was married to an eckist and got the same treatment
        whenever I disagreed with any of her absurd claims, such as Gakko was from
        Venus. When Twitch Hell wrote in 1969 there had been no space probe sent
        to Venus, an of course he was writing science fiction. Now we know the
        planet has a surface temperature of 800 degrees and the atmosphere is
        composed of poisonous gases. Does this make any difference to
        them? No! To maintain their position that they are God they bypass,
        rationalize, and ignore anything that does not agree with them. It is
        called the willing suspension of disbelief. You know, like Alice in
        Wonderland. It is like a kind of hypnotism. Just be glad you couldn't
        surrender your mind. You are the one who is right.













        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • alphagator
        ... Hi Shanya-Rochel, Welcome to the neighborhood! I think you ll find that many of us joined under different circumstances, but that most of us left for
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 11, 2002
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          --- In eckankartruth@y..., "aneini613hashem" <aneini613hashem@y...> wrote:
          > Hi everyone....
          > just a quick note to introduce myself...
          > My name is Shayna-Rochel. I was born into an eck family. I was
          > raised as a eckist for most of my life until I decided it wasn't for
          > me in my mid to late 20s. Both my brother and his wife and my father
          > and his wife and family are all still hooked. And sadly because of
          > that they are not capable (for whatever spiritual precept.....give me
          > a break) of having anything to do with me. I am estranged from my
          > father for well over 10 years now. It hurts deeply.
          > I sought out this group because I am still in the midst of dealing
          > with wading through all the stuff I was told growing up. I am hoping
          > this might be a supportive safe place for an ex-eckist.
          > I hope everyone is well,
          > Shayna-Rochel

          Hi Shanya-Rochel,

          Welcome to the neighborhood! I think you'll find that many of us
          joined under different circumstances, but that most of us left for
          similar reasons.

          As someone who "joined" when my Mom did while I was still in high
          school (thank God she left soon after I did!), I'm interested in your
          experience as someone who was raised in an Eckist family, and left.
          Not too surprisingly, most of the Eck youth I knew had been members
          since at least their early childhood, so they had known nothing else.
          (Come to think of it, I can't remember anyone else who had "joined"
          with their parents while they were teenagers.) While most adult
          Eckists seem to leave within 2-4 years, it seems that Eckists who were
          born into it are more likely to stay, simply because they don't have
          another perspective. For me, it was some experiences with people
          outside of Eck that made me comfortable enough to consider other
          alternatives. (In particular, it was one friend who was an
          ex-Scientologist -- who didn't know I was in a cult -- who told me
          about his experiences in that group, with which I began to see
          parallels.) Do you think it was harder for you to leave because you
          were born into it? How did you get comfortable enough to consider that
          Eck might not have the answers for you?

          Also, how similar do you think your experience in leaving Eckankar is
          to other adults who grew up in Eckankar? Do most people who grew up in
          the group leave at some point?

          Thank you for sharing your perspective in this group. I know this
          can't be easy for you.


          Regards,


          -David
        • brighttigress
          Hi Shayna-Rochel - I am *so* sorry to hear that your leaving eckankar has caused problems with your family. This is contrary to the teachings they like to
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 11, 2002
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            Hi Shayna-Rochel -

            I am *so* sorry to hear that your leaving eckankar has caused
            problems with your family. This is contrary to the "teachings" they
            like to use for the public, but unfortunately it doesn't work out
            that way in real life. They preach unconditional love and acceptance
            of all other "paths", etc., and are quick to pull out one or two of
            Klemp's quotes where he says it's okay if people leave, but the words
            don't match the true "inner" feelings of cult members, and their
            actions towards those who leave.

            I don't know if you read alt.religion.eckankar, but recently I posted
            a "secret discourse" which deals with a youth who was raised in the
            cult...I'll re-post it here, below. I think it shows a lot about
            Klemp's attitude towards people like you, and it's not nice.

            I hope we can sort of help you out here. There are a lot of good
            links in the "bookmarks" section that hopefully can point out some of
            the things you were taught that it's helpful to think about & examine
            more, to identify & get rid of the "garbage". Also the other general
            cult information sites have a lot of helpful information pertaining
            to situations like yours - it's not much different than that of
            children of other religions/cults who leave when they grow up. And
            you might want to check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex-cult-
            support or any other "ex" groups to get a broader viewpoint. I
            remember not too long after I left, I came across a Yahoo ex-
            christian group that I found very helpful & interesting. I think the
            important thing isn't necessarily the little details involved, the
            beliefs you need to "de-program" from yourself (although that's
            important too), but just sort of understanding all the dynamics of
            the situation, the "universal" stuff.

            I raised my son in it, but I guess I wasn't as "dogmatic" about it,
            mostly just stuck to general good spiritual principles, and not that
            involved with the Org & other eckists. He decided not to continue as
            an adult member, which really surprised me but I thought it was okay -
            - I figured he needed to learn things elsewhere, and then
            would "return". Well, I was even *more* surprised when not that long
            afterwards, I went to a.r.e., woke up, and got out! It was some
            months before we could sit down & talk about my leaving, and I'll
            tell ya, he was *shocked* at some of the "cultic" nonsense I showed
            him that I'd believed in!

            Well...welcome! Thanks for posting, and I hope we can help you!

            And I hope you can have compassion and understanding for your family
            members. Maybe one day, because of you, they'll wake up and get out -
            - and you might need to be there to support them.

            Hugs,

            Sharon


            From: Sharon2000 (brighttigress@... )
            Subject: Re: Nolo Contendre
            Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar, alt.support.ex-cult
            Date: 2002-03-03 12:21:57 PST
            "HU 4 God" <hu4god@...> wrote:
            > I've decided not to respond to Sharon's questions because it goes
            onto
            > deaf ears and because she is trying to get me to discuss private
            > discourses.


            In other words, if someone isn't going to agree with you, you're not
            going to talk to them?

            Isn't that an attitude sort of like Klemp's in the discourse, where
            just because the young man questioned Rebizarre's age, Klemp took it
            as an attack on his own spiritual gianthood?

            I realize you and other cult members are forbidden to discuss the
            discourses, but that's not exactly fair to the people you're trying to
            recruit into the cult, is it?

            But...you're just doing what Klemp instructs. To deceive people to
            get
            their attention, and not to tell them some things at first, like the
            threats in the "teachings", or the copyrighted cult words...you're
            supposed
            to use "God" and "Holy Spirit" in public, not "Sugmad" and "Eck".


            > She posts one story with a small explanation from Harold
            > without "the rest of the story" so of course her points are
            highlighted
            > to venom.

            I posted a whole discourse on the subject of the importance of going
            to
            seminars and classes. A young man didn't want to go, although he
            said he
            still "loved the eck" and wanted to remain a member, but a "silent"
            member.
            Sort of like what you advised someone to do, and what other members
            say
            *they* do, all the time.

            Klemp says otherwise, Jackie. Plain and simple. My "venom" has
            nothing to
            do with it. Delete the "venom" and read what Klemp has to say. Of
            course,
            he spews a bit of venom out himself, but that's okay. He's
            a "spiritual
            giant"! <ggg>

            So, what's "the rest of the story" that I left out?

            You don't have to respond, Jackie. The discourse says it all. Like
            it
            says on the last page: "This discourse has been authored by and
            published
            under the supervision of the Living ECK Master, Sri Harold Klemp. It
            is
            the Word of ECK."

            Your refusal to answer questions regarding material which contradicts
            what
            you and other members say to try to attract new members also proves
            you
            believe the old threat that used to be printed on the discourses
            before
            Klemp toned down the strong wording from "To reveal its contents to
            anyone
            outside your immediate household of ECK study class will halt any
            spiritual
            growth you may have" to "It is for your own spiritual benefit and may
            be
            shared only with those in your immediate household or ECK Satsang
            class."

            No, Jackie, it's not necessary that you answer my questions. People
            can
            read "The Word of ECK" and see for themselves. I'll repost it below
            for
            those who may have missed it.

            Sharon


            Re: Out of Eck in '73
            "Sharon2000" <brighttigress@...>
            Friday 7:35 PM
            Newsgroups: alt.religion.eckankar, alt.eckankar, alt.support.ex-cult

            "HU 4 God" <hu4god@...> wrote:
            > Sorry Sharon but your pov is NOT mine and I do not agree with your
            > "assessment". I remember that story from the private discourse and
            > Harold meant the boy had to find his OWN way. Now if your version
            > doesn't have that in it, then maybe it's not complete.
            >

            It's not *my* assessment, Jackie. It's the "Word of ECK" - Harold
            makes it
            quite clear that the kid needs to go to classes & seminars. It's not
            at
            all about the boy "finding his own way". And my version is the same
            as
            yours -- this was one of Klemp's "new" discourse series, with his
            picture
            on the first page.

            Feel free to compare your copy with what I'll be posting here, and
            show me
            perhaps where mine isn't "complete". And I'd also like some
            elaboration
            on what makes you come to the conclusion that you arrived at, because
            it's
            most certainly *not* anything in the discourse.

            I think this discourse is making two very important points. 1) You
            *must*
            do the "org" stuff, and 2) You *must* believe everything the cult
            says.

            > > "HU 4 God" <hu4god@...> wrote:
            > > > If you don't want to be a member anymore, just don't sign up
            each year.
            > > > Besides, being an ECKist does not mean you have to be active on
            the
            > > > outer. IMO living the live of ECK is a personal one and can be
            done
            > > > privately. Many people step aside from the outer organizational
            > > > activities and just do their own "thing". That's ok too.
            > >
            > >
            > > Sorry, Jackie, but it's NOT okay, according to Klemp.
            > >
            > > Klemp took a whole secret members-only discourse to address this
            subject,
            > > concerning a young man who "wanted to remain a silent member, not
            coming to
            > > ECK classes or ECK seminars." (Note the use of ECK to mean the
            > > ORGANIZATION, not "holy spirit".)
            > >
            > > From Letters of Light & Sound 2, #10, "A Passion for God", by
            Harold
            > > Klemp:
            > >
            > > "The other day, a young man faced me with his doubts about the
            teachings of
            > > ECK. Born into an ECK family, he had enjoyed every spiritual
            advantage.
            > > His birth into the beginnings of the modern-day movement of
            ECKANKAR had
            > > apparently made it too easy for him. He missed out on the long
            search for
            > > God that many of us make before our first meeting with the
            Mahanta, the
            > > Living ECK Master. He was at the age of youthful rebellion.
            > >
            > > (in bold print) THIS YOUNG ECKIST HAD LOST HIS PASSION FOR GOD.
            > >
            > > This young ECKist had lost his passion for God. How
            thoughtlessly we often
            > > brush aside the gifts of life, such as youth, health,
            intelligence, but
            > > especially the most precious gift of all---the straight-line path
            to God.
            > >
            > > However, he was not leaving ECK for another path. His passing
            knowledge of
            > > various paths did not include a desire to join them, because they
            did not
            > > measure up to the teachings of ECK. He wanted to continue as a
            member of
            > > ECKANKAR. Yet he wanted to remain a silent member, not coming to
            ECK
            > > classes or ECK seminars.
            > >
            > > There was no point in arguing. On the contrary, it was amusing
            to see the
            > > voice of inexperience speak up in defiance of ECK, for that is
            what it
            > > was."
            > >

            The discourse continues:

            "Soul insists upon having Its experiences. By his vain challenge of
            ECK,
            this youth was putting blocks in his own way, making trouble for
            himself by
            refusing to accept God's love. Yet it was his right. Doing such a
            thing
            only proves the need for more spiritual experience."

            (Pretty harsh & judgmental of Klemp, isn't it?)

            "The teachings of ECK were his since he was a baby. Its truth was
            the milk
            and substance of his spiritual being.

            Asked whether he had a clear-cut question in mind, he was quick to
            restate
            his love for ECK, but the age of Rebazar Tarzs was a concern."

            (Hmmmmm....so, it's more than the kid just wanting to do it "on the
            inner".
            He dared to ask a question, to not accept blindly....but says he still
            loves "the eck". So what's Klemp getting all bent out of shape
            for? )

            "Was Rebazar actually five hundred years old? Did he pass his time
            in a
            little shack up in the Himalayas, content with an occasional cup of
            tea and
            a handful of rice for nourishment? It was hard to believe. Further,
            he
            would not believe it unless Rebazar told him so in person. The young
            man
            would wait for an answer, even if it took eighty years.

            "Wait if you like," I said, "but also get on with your life."

            (bold header) The story about Rebazar

            The story about Rebazar, his hut, and his modest diet are the
            conditions
            under which Paul Twitchell met this ECK Master years ago. Yet
            Rebazar and
            other Masters of the Vairagi Order usually live among people, for
            that is
            where the spiritual need is. They dress in ordinary clothes, not in
            robes.
            To be effective as Co-workers with God, they try to look like everyone
            else. But they carry the gift of divine love. When the need
            arrises, they
            often appear at a critical moment to give of God's blessings, asking
            nothing in return.

            Our young friend still has much to learn about selfless love for God.
            (Note: "learn about selfless love for God" is in bold print.)

            (?????? So, Klemp is telling this young man that simply because he
            wants
            *proof* of Reb's existence, he's not quite up to snuff on "selfless
            love"???? Excuse me??? Now, when I was a cult member I neither
            believed nor disbelieved in Rebazar. It wasn't important to me. Of
            course, at the time I didn't know that a lot of the stuff Reb "told"
            Twitchell had already been published in works by other authors! )

            Klemp continues --

            "Rebazar may eventually reply to his question about about longevity,
            but
            the ECK Masters well understand human nature and its pride. People
            think
            they know it all."

            (Of course, Klemp has to get in his little digs about this young man
            who
            dares to ask questions!)

            "Back in the Dark Ages, a person used to be old at thirty. Yet the
            average
            life span has pushed upward over the centuries, until in the past
            decade,
            it is common to hear of people a hundred or more. by comparison to
            the ECK
            Adepts, even Shigechiyo Izumi, a Japanese man who lived to 120, was a
            tender youth. China supposedly has the records of a man who died
            well over
            the age of two hundred years. But these are ordinary people. Some
            ECK
            Masters have gone beyond those age limits by immortalizing their
            bodies to
            reclaim youth and health for better service to SUGMAD in this world."

            (What's this supposed to "prove", Klemp? That just because there is
            documentation of some 120 year old Japanese guy, that means first of
            all
            that there *is* a Rebazar, and secondly that he *is* 500 years old?
            People are supposed to believe you, and Twitch? No questions
            allowed?)

            "They do it out of a strong passion for God."

            (??? Really? Prove it, Klemp!! First of all, there is *no* proof
            that
            they exist. On the contrary, considering their "words" were already
            spoken
            by others, in previously published & copyrighted books, well...c'mon,
            you
            should be thankful that this kid at least wants to remain a member,
            even if
            he *does* want proof of Reb!)

            (Now---here comes Klemp with some irrelevant examples, probably to
            inspire
            the kid to want to "achieve" these experiences for himself---and
            after the
            examples, Klemp will point out to the kid that it's just not possible
            without going to meetings and classes.)

            "In others, however, this passion for life occurs within a more
            normal life
            span. An example is St. Francis of Assisi, who lived in the
            thirteenth
            century. Often while in prayer, the rapture of God lifted him from
            the
            ground to varying heights, from a few feet to higher than a tree. St.
            Catherine of Genoa, some three centuries later, felt a passion for
            God that
            manifested itself as a body heat of high intensity. Once, after
            thrusting
            her burning hands into a pitcher of cool water, the water turned hot.
            Another person with a passion for God was St. Teresa. Divine love
            often
            lifted her from her body (Soul Travel), giving mixed feelings of
            pleasure
            and fear. She once described leaving the human body as delicious,
            yet is
            still frightened her, especially when her rapture came in public.

            Soul Travel lifted her from the human body, which sometimes had the
            further
            effect of physical levitation. She took great care not to let people
            catch
            her. Yet her passion for God remained strong, because her
            experiences were
            of great sweetness, if she could raise the courage not to resist
            them."

            (Amazing, isn't it? Where does Klemp look for real, living examples
            of
            "Soul Travel"? To that dead "lower" path, Catholicism!!! <ggg>
            And
            isn't it fascinating that although there are supposedly all these
            disguised
            ancient "Vairagi ECK Masters" sneaking around doing good deeds, for
            some
            odd reason there is absolutely *no* records *anywhere* of either their
            existence *or* their deeds. On the other hand, there is tons & tons
            of
            stuff on the Catholic saints -- hundreds of them. They left a lot of
            *original* writings, too. They didn't find it necessary to
            materialize in
            Paul Twitchell's bedroom and "dictate" the words of other authors.
            They
            kept diaries & stuff. And other people left eyewitness accounts. The
            Catholic Church has a lot of stringent requirements for granting
            sainthood.
            They don't accept monthly "dream journal" entries, or the claims of
            every
            Mexican woman who sees Jesus in her tortilla. However, the message
            here
            *is* quite clear -- Klemp is telling the kid that he doesn't love God
            enough. Perhaps the problem is the kid said he loves "the ECK".
            There's
            a difference.)

            Klemp continues:

            "An ECKist from Africa once posted a question to an American
            audience. "Do
            you know the difference between ECK initiates in America and in
            Africa?"
            he asked. (in bold print) "In America, you try to put the ECK in your
            lives. In Africa, we put our lives in the ECK!" <unbold> A simple
            but
            significant truth.

            (Okay, now what is this saying? Remember, the kid said he wanted to
            remain
            a member, a silent member, not go to classes & seminars. That's
            all. He
            said he still loved "the eck". African members are frequently held
            up as
            good examples to the lazy Americans -- for example, in one story Klemp
            expressed admiration for an African HI who made "his" chelas memorize
            the
            "teachings" so thoroughly that they could spew forth seminar talks
            without
            preparation, on demand. And there are lots of stories about how
            seminars
            are packed, and new temples being built, etc. Now, thinking about
            the
            difference between putting "eck in your lives" and putting
            your "lives in
            the eck", in the context of the subject of this discourse, seems to
            me that
            it does NOT mean just having "holy spirit" in your life, as you
            originally
            said it was okay to do as a member, which is why I'm posting this.
            What
            Klemp is saying is....the organization, meetings, classes, seminars,
            etc.,
            *are* important! And if you don't attend them, obviously you do NOT
            love
            "God" enough.)

            And....for the life of me, I can NOT understand the relevance of what
            Klemp
            writes next:

            "Not so long ago, someone threw a dart at the Mahanta, the Living ECK
            Master. "He likes his job too much!" this person said. This news
            was more
            than amusing. <bold> The Master devotes his entire life to helping
            people
            make their own lives richer and more spiritually fulfilling, <unbold>
            so
            what sort of Master would be be who would not enjoy doing that?"

            (???? What's this got to do with the subject this discourse
            originally
            started on??? Let's see now...)

            <bold header> Life requires a passion for God

            "Life requires a passion for God. The Mahanta has it, which often
            makes
            others, who are unhappy with their own relationship with God, try to
            bring
            him down a peg. It is the social mind at its worst. The engine that
            drives this envy is the human consciousness, which uses every trick
            in a
            futile attempt to reduce a spiritual giant to the level of the critic
            himself."

            (Good grief!!!! Why did I never recognize these paranoid rantings
            when I
            was a member? Seems to me the kid in the beginning didn't have a
            "problem" with either his relationship with God, *or* with wanting to
            remain a cult member. He just wanted to be a "silent" member and not
            go to
            classes & seminars, which publicly, cult members will tell you is
            perfectly
            all right. All the kid did was question Reb's age!!! He didn't even
            question Reb's existence....just his age!!! And Klemp seems to be
            interpreting this as a personal attack against "The Master"?!?!?!?)

            "At the beginning of this discourse, you read of the young man with
            doubts
            about the age of Rebazar Tarzs, the Tibetan ECK Master. Now let's
            hear
            another side. Originally from a mainline Christian church, this
            person is
            now an ECK initiate, too, but with fewer years in ECK than the young
            man.
            This person came to ECK the hard way: after years of searching and
            disappointment in his search for truth."

            (Comment here: the cult DOES teach quite clearly that *everyone* who
            joins
            the cult in this incarnation *has* spend hundreds or thousands of
            horrible
            incarnations, searching in vain, and that they have *earned* their
            chosen
            peoplehood whether they know it or not. Klemp also strokes the
            younger
            members excessively, even telling them that they may indeed be much
            higher
            spiritually than their elders.)

            "He frankly enjoys the company of the people at the ECK Center. They
            love
            to speak about the SUGMAD, the Mahanta, and the Light and Sound of
            ECK ---
            and do so without reservation.

            The first time he sang HU (the ancient love song to God) at
            an ECK
            Worship Service, a purple light appeared in his Spiritual Eye.
            Purple is one of the many colors of the Light of God, and in
            it he
            saw a soaring eagle. This was his introduction to ECK. He
            compared his activity in ECK to his involvement in his old
            church,
            where he used to have to listen a lot. A few elders, who
            claimed a
            more direct line to the Word of God, preached at him and the
            congregation. They let no one else speak about their own
            experiences. The minister even warned a member once not to
            speak
            with this person, because the latter's ideas ran counter to
            those
            of the church.

            (Hmmmm....interesting little story, huh? Klemp's filling a double
            purpose
            here....telling the kid (a bad example) about a cool experience a
            *good*
            example of a member had at a "worship" service, and getting in his
            usual
            digs at Christianity. Funny thing, though, I've never heard
            Christian
            pastors claiming they had a more direct line to God -- that's
            something
            reserved for the LEMs!!!! Really!!!! Plenty of quotes about that -
            - and
            you can only "connect" with paid membershp. This stuff sounds more
            like
            the pot calling the kettle black, you know?)

            "Shortly after his experience with the Light of God at the ECK Worship
            Service, he again saw the purple light at a worship service: this
            time, at
            his regular church. The Light of God opened his heart. It flooded
            him
            with a divine wisdom unknown to him before, so he asked his minister
            for
            permission to speak to the rest about it.

            Of course not," the minister replied. "The people cannot understand
            your
            wisdom, because they are not open enough to receive it."

            (Puh-leeze!!! I think this story is bullshit. On the other hand,
            who
            knows? I mean, right here at alt.religion.eckankar we've got "Sri
            Steven"
            - would Klemp let him speak at the "temple"? <ggg>)

            "Yet at the ECK book discussion classes, he had found an easy
            acceptance of
            his spiritual view amaong the members of ECK. Little of what he said
            about
            his inner experiences was of any surprise to them. One ECKist or
            another
            had had a similar experience at some time or other, so they
            understood him
            and his new insights into the wonderful ways of Divine Spirit.
            Though the
            rest of his family still attend their old church, he tries to be a
            good
            husband and father, because he, in turn, understands their fear of
            social
            rejection. They are afraid of what people in their church would say
            if
            they left it for ECKANKAR."

            (In spite of Klemp's constant digs about the insincerity of members of
            other religions, which may perhaps stem from his *own* need for
            constant
            outer approval, I daresay if you ask most members of other religions
            why
            they stay, they'll tell you about the spiritual fulfillment they find
            there. Try it -- I did! And being fulfilled spiritually in their
            religion of choice, why would they leave it for a silly new-age cult?)

            "This man is very fortunate. Although he has been in ECKANKAR for a
            shorter time than the young man mentioned earlier, he has seen Rebazar
            Tarzs."

            (Yeah...all because he's a good little eckboy and goes to meetings!)

            <bold header> The ECK Master came to him in a dream.

            The ECK Master came to him in a dream. Rebazar struck him as a warm
            human
            being with a beautiful personality. The ECK Master spoke to him like
            a
            friend, as if they had known each other for years -- although it was
            the
            dreamer's first conscious recall of Rebazar. The man's wife and
            children
            were in the dream, too. They stood on a riverbank, downstream, near
            the
            place that Rebazar Tarzs had met them. The dreamer gazed into the
            clear
            water where fish swam, while Rebazar gave him some instructions on
            diet as
            well as the wisdom of God.

            (Of course, if you hang out with enough cult members & really absorb
            the
            "teachings" you can talk yourself into just about anything.
            Heck .... in
            my late teens & 20's "programming" my dreams was a fun thing,
            but...what I
            was doing was *fiction*.)

            The discourse continues:

            "This ECK initiate is grateful for his Christian background. How else
            could he <bold> fully appreciate the wealth of spiritual experiences
            <unbold> that are now his in ECKANKAR?"

            (Yep...another subtle "dart" thrown at the mediocrity of his former
            non-productive path!)

            "Since his first experience with the purple light (Etheric Plane, the
            area
            of intuition right below the Soul Plane), he has seen the golden
            light of
            God. The divine colors have opened him to an appreciation of the
            deeper
            meaning behind the Living ECK Master's words at public seminars."

            (NOTE HERE Klemp's using the phrase "at public seminars". He's
            driving
            home the point that the seminars are important. Not just reading the
            published talks in eckbooks. These three little words show quite
            clearly
            that Klemp is *very* focused on the subject of telling members they
            *must*
            go to classes & seminars.)

            "This gentleman has made a good beginning on the road home to God.
            And the
            Mahanta has since met him in the dream state, bringing peace, wisdom,
            and
            spiritual strength."

            (In contrast to the bad young man, huh?)

            <bold header> A passion for God finds its roots in the desire for
            spiritual
            freedom

            "A passion for God finds its roots in the desire for spiritual
            freedom. A
            seeker may spend years searching for truth, only to meet with
            disappointment time and again. Then, unexpectedly, comes a new
            dawning.

            Ten years ago, a young woman began her own search for God.

            Every morning she walked four miles, trying to adjust to life again
            after
            breaking up with an old boyfriend. One morning during her walk, she
            entered a state of bliss. It brought a powerful sense of peace and
            joy, as
            if she had stumbled into a perfect world of happiness. Her thoughts
            then
            turned to God. That was unusual, because she rarely thought about
            God, but
            she heard herself say, "OK, God! If you exist, prove it to me." She
            promised to join whatever religion God wanted her to.

            After awhile, her spiritual search led her to a church that focuses
            upon
            metaphysics. She had the good fortune to study under a woman who had
            certain skills in that area, which taught her a lot and prepared her
            for
            ECKANKAR later. While a member of that church, a very odd thing
            began to
            happen to her when she was driving in her car, working at the office,
            or
            staying at home. A voice inside her would suddenly say "I have to go
            home,
            I have to go home." The words came repeatedly.

            Later, after ECKANKAR came into her life, these words from her inner
            side
            began to abate.

            Thus after a few years at that metaphysical church, this young woman
            left
            it to continue her restless search for spiritual freedom. She asked
            God
            for a Master to show her the path of love. In a bookstore, a few days
            later, she found Paul Twitchell's ECKANKAR---the Key to Secret
            Worlds. She
            bought the book and read it in two days. A week later, she signed up
            for
            membership in ECK.

            (Hmmmm...note that one!! She signed up for membership...in ECK?
            Shouldn't Klemp be saying ECKANKAR here? This is just one more of
            *tons*
            of example showing how the cult conflates ECK and ECKANKAR, and in
            their
            minds, although they say publicly "eck" means "Holy Spirit", that's
            not
            exactly true. ECK is a copyrighted cult word. The cult claims
            its "holy
            spirit" is "higher" than "non-eck holy spirit". etc.)

            "Sometime later, she boarded a plane to fly to the annual ECK
            Worldwide
            Seminar. Her life was sunshine and roses."

            (Puhleeze!!! This is a riot!!!)

            "At the seminar on Friday, she went into the main hall to listen to
            the
            music and the afternoon talks. She sat down alone, shut her eyes, and
            immediately found herself in a beautiful valley with a river running
            through it. The Mahanta was by the river waiting for her, so she
            walked up
            to him. He put his arm around her and said, "You are home." Then
            Rebazar
            Tarzs and other ECK Masters also came up to embrace her, saying, "You
            are
            home." Their greetings moved her to tears. She knew then, no matter
            what
            turmoil might come later, ECK was for her.

            This inner experience made sense of the inner voice that used to
            speak of
            her desire to go home. She returned to that river on the inner
            planes all
            during that seminar weekend, <bold> encircled by the love of ECK.

            (Dontcha just love these stories!! <ggg> Are they any more true
            than
            those testimonials from women who increased their bustlines 5" in
            three
            days? Hey...those things *work*!!! They show pictures!!!)

            Before her experiences at the ECK seminar, she had not been much of a
            visual person: no dreams, no memory of other inner travels, not even
            during
            guided visualizations led by others in the ECK classes. Yet that
            weekend
            at the ECK seminar taught her that <bold> ECKANKAR is the path of
            love.
            The love of the Mahanta won't end all doubts, however, for they crop
            up
            during each new period of spiritual testing.

            (In other words, bad young man, you *must* go to the seminars if you
            want
            to see Reb!! Now...what's this "spiritual testing" thing? To be
            brief, it's "doubts" implanted either by the KAL to lure you away, or
            put
            there by the "Master" for your spiritual growth. "Success" means
            getting
            rid of the doubts, accepting 100% whatever the cult hands out, and
            staying
            a loyal member....and going to seminars, and spending your money, and
            recruiting.)

            "During a recent time of testing, she debated whether to leave
            ECKANKAR
            when some ECKists in her hometown were having to jump through their
            own
            spiritual hoops and not doing a good job of it. An inner nudge from
            the
            Mahanta said, "Patience."

            At a Day with ECK a while later, she again felt the warm, familiar
            love of
            the Mahanta encircle her as the ECK program began.

            Listening to the program, she shut her eyes. The Mahanta and Rebazar
            came
            into her spiritual vision, carrying a brown box. The Mahanta opened
            it
            carefully and took out a large crystal heart that radiated with light.
            Lovingly, he placed it inside her. It produced a deep effect: She
            was at
            once inside it, but it was also within her. This experience filled
            her
            with love, for she again had the gentle, loving guidance of the
            Mahanta,
            the Living ECK Master, and all the other ECK Masters.

            <bold> Her desire is to find spiritual freedom in this lifetime.
            <unbold>
            She wants to serve SUGMAD with the same patience, grace, and love
            that the
            ECK Masters have shown her, teaching and helping her on her return to
            God."

            (Yes, bad unappreciative young man who dares to question, and doesn't
            want
            to go to seminars & classes, we can see here that of course you are
            NOT
            going to deserve a visit from Reb unless you go to these things. No,
            you
            can NOT remain a good member "on the inner". You can have all the
            "ecksperiences" and "spiritual freedom" you want, as long as you
            attend
            seminars and classes. )

            ------------------

            Okay, Jackie, you said:

            > > > Besides, being an ECKist does not mean you have to be active on
            the
            > > > outer. IMO living the live of ECK is a personal one and can be
            done
            > > > privately. Many people step aside from the outer organizational
            > > > activities and just do their own "thing". That's ok too.

            I think this discourse makes it quite clear that you're opinion is
            *not*
            in line with the high-vibe Word of THE ECK by Harold Klemp, the
            Mahanta,
            the Living ECK Master, in the members-only discourses.

            I could also post tons of quotes from both the public and "private"
            discourses & publications showing how you *do* need to be active on
            the
            "outer" to achieve true "success" in the cult. In other words, it's
            the
            path of god-realization through recruiting new members. This began
            with
            Twitch in his early discourses "Letters to a Chela" *and* "Wisdom
            Notes",
            to mention just two.

            Whoops....I didn't include "This Month's Exercise" at the end of the
            discourse. I'll post it too, just in case you want to say that's
            where
            you got your ideas from:

            "Your spiritual exercise for this month begins with reading a passage
            from
            Stranger by the River. Open the book at will. Read wherever the page
            opens, because the Mahanta has a special message for you there.

            Put yourself in the shoes of the seeker. Feel his passion for God.

            Just now, for example, the page broke open at these words from
            Rebazar to
            the seeker and his beloved. They are from "The Trembling of a Star,"
            one
            of my favorite chapters:

            "If ye walk the middle path of understanding, ye will arrive at the
            end of
            the worldly wheel of birth and death, and be like the star that
            trembles in
            the sky of this early morning, or the river that flows between the
            hills
            and down through the valley to empty into the sea!"

            Until next time,

            With love and affection,

            Harold
            ------------------------------

            That reminds me, someone auctioning off SBTR at E-bay commented that
            it was
            plagiarized from Steinbeck, and I need to check into that more.

            > >
            > > "In the same way that one serves the ECK by putting the name
            forward in
            > > signs, bumper stickers, T-shirts, jewelry, etc., and makes the
            name common,
            > > so too can those serve who have only money to give and cannot go
            about
            > > actively." (Letters to a Chela, another secret holy members-only
            discourse
            > > series, see <http://www.delphiforums.com/eckankartruth>)
            > >NOTE: correct URL is:
            <http://forums.delphiforums.com/eckankartruth> !!

            Yeah, this link doesn't work. They're making changes at Delphi, and I
            think they want you to register & sign in before you can get to any
            of the
            forums. Well...I'll have to do something else. If anyone wants to
            see
            LC, you can do an advanced Google group search and simply
            put "Letters to a
            Chela" in the "subject" line, and "alt.religion.eckankar" in the
            newsgroup
            line, and you'll get 'em. Ditto with "Wisdom Notes".

            Sharon

            --

            --
            FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ECKANKAR, SEE:

            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/links>
          • ShaynaRochel@Aol.Com
            Hi... just a quick not to say thank you for the e-mails. I will probably just lurk a little bit for the most part. I hope that s not a problem. I don t
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 11, 2002
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              Hi...
              just a quick not to say thank you for the e-mails. I will probably just lurk
              a little bit for the most part. I hope that's not a problem. I don't really
              have much to say at the moment. But I am glad to have found this group!
              Thanks again,
              Shayna Rochel

              ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
              "A small light dispels a great deal of darkness"


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • colleenmft
              Sadly, one of the negative consequences of cults such as eckankar is that it so intrudes upon and disrupts connection with one s family if one is apart from
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 12, 2002
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                Sadly, one of the negative consequences of cults such as eckankar is
                that it so intrudes upon and disrupts connection with one's family if
                one is apart from the group. Even within a family of all "eckists" I
                question whether the connection is lessened as members focuses on
                the "all-importance of the master" and eckankar takes place as a
                prime organizing factor such as the alcohol in an alcoholic family.


                It must be very difficult for you to be shut out from your family and
                to be unable to break through what I regard as their denial about
                their self-limiting and self-harming addiction.

                On the other hand, you must have a lot of inner strength and maturity
                to separate from the family and BE YOURSELF.

                Many of us former initiates, including myself, spent years in the org
                and finally came to our senses. I believe if one is honest to the
                conflict and tension created within oneself in trying to make every
                experience "fit" the eckankar dogma one eventually has to "wake up".

                I've found it very helpful to communicate with former eckankar
                members and others knowledgable about eckankar. This is the first
                place I went to aside from alt.religion.eckankar online.

                You can also join Execkankar Support --
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/execkankar which is closed to former
                members. I try to maintain safety within the group so that current
                eckankar members do not join.

                Have you found anything which seems to work in relating to your
                family?

                Colleen
                --- In eckankartruth@y..., "aneini613hashem" <aneini613hashem@y...>
                wrote:
                > Hi everyone....
                > just a quick note to introduce myself...
                > My name is Shayna-Rochel. I was born into an eck family. I was
                > raised as a eckist for most of my life until I decided it wasn't
                for
                > me in my mid to late 20s. Both my brother and his wife and my
                father
                > and his wife and family are all still hooked. And sadly because of
                > that they are not capable (for whatever spiritual precept.....give
                me
                > a break) of having anything to do with me. I am estranged from my
                > father for well over 10 years now. It hurts deeply.
                > I sought out this group because I am still in the midst of dealing
                > with wading through all the stuff I was told growing up. I am
                hoping
                > this might be a supportive safe place for an ex-eckist.
                > I hope everyone is well,
                > Shayna-Rochel
              • colleenmft
                Oops!!! Typo....sorry... Correction: You can also join Execkankar Support -- ... is ... if ... I ... and ... maturity ... org ... up . ... of ...
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 12, 2002
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                  Oops!!! Typo....sorry...

                  Correction: > You can also join Execkankar Support --
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/execkankar which is closed to CURRENT
                  > members. I try to maintain safety within the group so that current
                  > eckankar members do not join.
                  >


                  --- In eckankartruth@y..., "colleenmft" <colleenmft@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Sadly, one of the negative consequences of cults such as eckankar
                  is
                  > that it so intrudes upon and disrupts connection with one's family
                  if
                  > one is apart from the group. Even within a family of all "eckists"
                  I
                  > question whether the connection is lessened as members focuses on
                  > the "all-importance of the master" and eckankar takes place as a
                  > prime organizing factor such as the alcohol in an alcoholic family.
                  >
                  >
                  > It must be very difficult for you to be shut out from your family
                  and
                  > to be unable to break through what I regard as their denial about
                  > their self-limiting and self-harming addiction.
                  >
                  > On the other hand, you must have a lot of inner strength and
                  maturity
                  > to separate from the family and BE YOURSELF.
                  >
                  > Many of us former initiates, including myself, spent years in the
                  org
                  > and finally came to our senses. I believe if one is honest to the
                  > conflict and tension created within oneself in trying to make every
                  > experience "fit" the eckankar dogma one eventually has to "wake
                  up".
                  >
                  > I've found it very helpful to communicate with former eckankar
                  > members and others knowledgable about eckankar. This is the first
                  > place I went to aside from alt.religion.eckankar online.
                  >
                  > You can also join Execkankar Support --
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/execkankar which is closed to former
                  > members. I try to maintain safety within the group so that current
                  > eckankar members do not join.
                  >
                  > Have you found anything which seems to work in relating to your
                  > family?
                  >
                  > Colleen
                  > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "aneini613hashem" <aneini613hashem@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Hi everyone....
                  > > just a quick note to introduce myself...
                  > > My name is Shayna-Rochel. I was born into an eck family. I was
                  > > raised as a eckist for most of my life until I decided it wasn't
                  > for
                  > > me in my mid to late 20s. Both my brother and his wife and my
                  > father
                  > > and his wife and family are all still hooked. And sadly because
                  of
                  > > that they are not capable (for whatever spiritual
                  precept.....give
                  > me
                  > > a break) of having anything to do with me. I am estranged from
                  my
                  > > father for well over 10 years now. It hurts deeply.
                  > > I sought out this group because I am still in the midst of
                  dealing
                  > > with wading through all the stuff I was told growing up. I am
                  > hoping
                  > > this might be a supportive safe place for an ex-eckist.
                  > > I hope everyone is well,
                  > > Shayna-Rochel
                • brighttigress
                  ... You re welcome - and if you ever find you re getting too many emails from this group, you can change your settings and either get a daily digest or just
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 13, 2002
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                    --- In eckankartruth@y..., ShaynaRochel@A... wrote:
                    > Hi...
                    > just a quick not to say thank you for the e-mails.

                    You're welcome - and if you ever find you're getting too many emails
                    from this group, you can change your settings and either get a "daily
                    digest" or just come here and read the posts.



                    I will probably just lurk
                    > a little bit for the most part. I hope that's not a problem. I
                    don't really
                    > have much to say at the moment.

                    It's been sort of quiet here, so if you have any questions, comments,
                    or issues you'd like to see discussed, I think you'll have to start
                    the conversations!


                    > But I am glad to have found this group!

                    Glad we're here for you!

                    Hugs,

                    Sharon
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