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Dreams and Mythologies

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  • al_radzik@yahoo.com
    I began leafing through Joseph Campbell s Mythic Image last night.. and something struck me. In the first chapter, he mentions how dreams have spawned the
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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      I began leafing through Joseph Campbell's "Mythic Image" last night..
      and something struck me. In the first chapter, he mentions how dreams
      have spawned the wide and varied mythologies we use today.
      He explains that the images and characters we experience by
      the "egoless" sub-conciousness are the foundations for all religions.
      It got me thinking about Christianity and how it is more of a
      conciousness than the saga of a great man. From the fields of battle
      for Arjuna and Krishna to the boddhisatva tree where Buddah
      sat.....all of these manisfestations are borne from dreams of great
      men. The Brahma sitting on the lotus flower and Vishnu opening and
      closing his eyes...while a universe dies....and a new one appears!
      It is all so beautiful and mysterious.
      I am not one to believe that man walked with the dinosaurs although
      mnay Christians write volumes on this very subject just to support
      the absurd theory that the world is only 6000 years old. I prefer to
      take the Bible and other religious texts figuratively. Inside every
      verse is an unspoken truth...a signal...or a trigger that evokes a
      response...perhaps a spark from God speaking through the word.
      Then of course I started to think a little bit about Eckankar.

      Twitch tried to develop a mythology. He knew this is how they all
      started, and that he was going to start his own. He knew that he had
      enough experience with Radhosami, Sant Mat, Premananda and LRH to
      formulate a mystical religion. He used the tools of the trade to
      forge his own brand of Masters and Heavens. He also made the mistake
      of thinking that his followers were not that bright and decided to
      plagiarize others' works. His timing was right too. It was the mid
      sixties, and Paul had already embraced the Peace-Love-Hippie-Flower-
      Power mindset before Jerry Garcia lit his first joint.
      The kids were ALL looking for alternatives, and Paul, surfacially,
      looked legitimate.
      Unfortunately, Twitchell's mythology was weak. He tried so hard to
      cover up his plagiarism later when he saw Eckankar starting to take
      off. It was too late. Two copies of his texts were found redacted..

      Oops..gotta go......pick up later
      see ya later

      Alfji
    • Vic Shayne
      ... The works of Joseph Campbell, in my mind, are some of the most important volumes ever to grace our civilization. I am inclined to agree with you that
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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        --- al_radzik@... wrote:
        >
        > I began leafing through Joseph Campbell's "Mythic
        > Image" last night.....

        The works of Joseph Campbell, in my mind, are some of
        the most important volumes ever to grace our
        civilization. I am inclined to agree with you that
        twitchell attempted to create his own mythology. His
        first and lethal mistake is that mythology is formed
        over time and out of the spiritual and cultural
        outflow too complex to recreate as a whole and unified
        system by one person. Next, twitchell did not have the
        intelligence or spiritual depth to understand the
        complexities of life. Therefore, he hid behind the
        rationalization that there were two parts of himself
        -- the inner master and the outer human -- to cover up
        his faults and make an excuse for his lack of depth.
        But, as my grandfather was fond of saying, "A liar has
        to have a good memory." Twitchell did not. He was
        caught in lies over and over again, plagiarizing and
        not remembering what he had written or said only to
        contradict himself on many occasions.

        Although I am personally NOT religious, nor do I
        embrace any religion for myself, I feel that religion
        has a purpose here for many people -- perhaps for most
        people. It works well for many reasons. That being
        said, I believe that one of the most wondrous and
        ingenious symbols ever devised, as Campbell has noted,
        is that of Jesus on the cross. This concept is
        brilliant, because it evokes the metaphor of how love
        and suffering go hand in hand. As Campbell explains,
        with love there is suffering. In mythology, this is a
        prevalent theme. Ancient peoples loved their bison
        because of all the wonderful things the animal
        provided, from furs to meat, and from bone tools to
        shelter. But these people had to come to grips with
        the terrible fact that, despite the love for this
        being, they had to kill it in order to survive. Thus,
        they created ritual to keep sane. The killing of this
        animal that they loved, out of necessity, created
        suffering.

        These kinds of brilliant metaphors and mythologies to
        explain and embrace the transcendant are rich and
        complex. They are the result of the outpouring of
        spiritual thought and vision that Twitchell could
        never have created. Even though I am not a Christian
        and do not embrace any religion, it is clear to me
        that when harold dares to criticize Christianity or
        any other faith that sprang forth from the
        complexities of mythology, he is only showing his
        ignorance and complete lack of ability to understand
        and appreciate the deeper meaning that underlies the
        human experience.

        Lastly, and on a slightly different note...It is my
        reverence for mythology that makes me cringe every
        time I see that the word "MYTH" is used as a synonym
        for "lie." This is a common practice throughout our
        literature, journalism, social commentaries,
        advertising messages, etc. Joseph Campbell made
        mythology come alive with purpose and depth. Mythology
        is a rich study.

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
        http://personals.yahoo.com
      • al_radzik@yahoo.com
        ... Exactly! Well put too. The key is that, the transformation of the dream into the mythology governed by cultural boundaries is a very delicate and time
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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          --- In eckankartruth@y..., Vic Shayne <vicshayne@y...> wrote:
          > --- al_radzik@y... wrote:
          > >
          > > I began leafing through Joseph Campbell's "Mythic
          > > Image" last night.....
          >
          > The works of Joseph Campbell, in my mind, are some of
          > the most important volumes ever to grace our
          > civilization. I am inclined to agree with you that
          > twitchell attempted to create his own mythology. His
          > first and lethal mistake is that mythology is formed
          > over time and out of the spiritual and cultural
          > outflow too complex to recreate as a whole and unified
          > system by one person.

          Exactly! Well put too. The key is that, the transformation of the
          dream into the mythology governed by cultural boundaries is a very
          delicate and time dependent process. Twitchell plowed through it like
          a bull in a China closet.

          Next, twitchell did not have the
          > intelligence or spiritual depth to understand the
          > complexities of life. Therefore, he hid behind the
          > rationalization that there were two parts of himself
          > -- the inner master and the outer human -- to cover up
          > his faults and make an excuse for his lack of depth.
          > But, as my grandfather was fond of saying, "A liar has
          > to have a good memory." Twitchell did not. He was
          > caught in lies over and over again, plagiarizing and
          > not remembering what he had written or said only to
          > contradict himself on many occasions.

          This is great stuff. Twitchell never struck me as a man with a strong
          and clear vision. I always maintain that Eckankar is analogous to a
          MacDonald's restaurant. It is cheap, fast and instantly gratifying
          but has no nourishment.

          >
          > Although I am personally NOT religious, nor do I
          > embrace any religion for myself, I feel that religion
          > has a purpose here for many people -- perhaps for most
          > people. It works well for many reasons. That being
          > said, I believe that one of the most wondrous and
          > ingenious symbols ever devised, as Campbell has noted,
          > is that of Jesus on the cross. This concept is
          > brilliant, because it evokes the metaphor of how love
          > and suffering go hand in hand. As Campbell explains,
          > with love there is suffering. In mythology, this is a
          > prevalent theme. Ancient peoples loved their bison
          > because of all the wonderful things the animal
          > provided, from furs to meat, and from bone tools to
          > shelter. But these people had to come to grips with
          > the terrible fact that, despite the love for this
          > being, they had to kill it in order to survive. Thus,
          > they created ritual to keep sane. The killing of this
          > animal that they loved, out of necessity, created
          > suffering.

          The cave paintings are the cathedrals of earliest man!
          >
          > These kinds of brilliant metaphors and mythologies to
          > explain and embrace the transcendant are rich and
          > complex. They are the result of the outpouring of
          > spiritual thought and vision that Twitchell could
          > never have created. Even though I am not a Christian
          > and do not embrace any religion, it is clear to me
          > that when harold dares to criticize Christianity or
          > any other faith that sprang forth from the
          > complexities of mythology, he is only showing his
          > ignorance and complete lack of ability to understand
          > and appreciate the deeper meaning that underlies the
          > human experience.

          Yes...I have made mention several times of perusing the
          religion/philosophical section of Borders or Barnes and Noble. You
          will find volumes of texts revering the tenets of Christianity and
          Judaism. The accounts of the Catholic saints can move one to tears!!
          Talk about revelations and touching the hem of God!!
          The Baghavadgita has found its way into my heart as well as the very
          tender and thoughtful Autobiography of a Yogi. These books are deeply
          beautiful and fulfilling.
          On the other hand, you can find Harold's little books stuck in
          between aromatherapy and crystals in the metaphysical section.. Bad
          drawings, horrendously infantile writing, and a complete lackluster
          sense of spirituality. The man has no qualifications and should trade
          in that pseudo-spiritual glazed stare; and his blue clip-on tie for a
          copy of the Bible....and this time....read the darn thing.
          >
          > Lastly, and on a slightly different note...It is my
          > reverence for mythology that makes me cringe every
          > time I see that the word "MYTH" is used as a synonym
          > for "lie." This is a common practice throughout our
          > literature, journalism, social commentaries,
          > advertising messages, etc. Joseph Campbell made
          > mythology come alive with purpose and depth. Mythology
          > is a rich study.
          >

          I had a struggle with that too. I am glad Campbell left so much to
          us. Have you seen his TV series with Bill Moyers?


          Alf
        • Paul Olson
          Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service? Paul ... From: Vic Shayne To: Sent: October 29,
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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            Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service?
            Paul
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Vic Shayne" <vicshayne@...>
            To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: October 29, 2001 12:33 PM
            Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Dreams and Mythologies


            > --- al_radzik@... wrote:
            > >
            > > I began leafing through Joseph Campbell's "Mythic
            > > Image" last night.....
            >
            > The works of Joseph Campbell, in my mind, are some of
            > the most important volumes ever to grace our
            > civilization. I am inclined to agree with you that
            > twitchell attempted to create his own mythology. His
            > first and lethal mistake is that mythology is formed
            > over time and out of the spiritual and cultural
            > outflow too complex to recreate as a whole and unified
            > system by one person. Next, twitchell did not have the
            > intelligence or spiritual depth to understand the
            > complexities of life. Therefore, he hid behind the
            > rationalization that there were two parts of himself
            > -- the inner master and the outer human -- to cover up
            > his faults and make an excuse for his lack of depth.
            > But, as my grandfather was fond of saying, "A liar has
            > to have a good memory." Twitchell did not. He was
            > caught in lies over and over again, plagiarizing and
            > not remembering what he had written or said only to
            > contradict himself on many occasions.
            >
            > Although I am personally NOT religious, nor do I
            > embrace any religion for myself, I feel that religion
            > has a purpose here for many people -- perhaps for most
            > people. It works well for many reasons. That being
            > said, I believe that one of the most wondrous and
            > ingenious symbols ever devised, as Campbell has noted,
            > is that of Jesus on the cross. This concept is
            > brilliant, because it evokes the metaphor of how love
            > and suffering go hand in hand. As Campbell explains,
            > with love there is suffering. In mythology, this is a
            > prevalent theme. Ancient peoples loved their bison
            > because of all the wonderful things the animal
            > provided, from furs to meat, and from bone tools to
            > shelter. But these people had to come to grips with
            > the terrible fact that, despite the love for this
            > being, they had to kill it in order to survive. Thus,
            > they created ritual to keep sane. The killing of this
            > animal that they loved, out of necessity, created
            > suffering.
            >
            > These kinds of brilliant metaphors and mythologies to
            > explain and embrace the transcendant are rich and
            > complex. They are the result of the outpouring of
            > spiritual thought and vision that Twitchell could
            > never have created. Even though I am not a Christian
            > and do not embrace any religion, it is clear to me
            > that when harold dares to criticize Christianity or
            > any other faith that sprang forth from the
            > complexities of mythology, he is only showing his
            > ignorance and complete lack of ability to understand
            > and appreciate the deeper meaning that underlies the
            > human experience.
            >
            > Lastly, and on a slightly different note...It is my
            > reverence for mythology that makes me cringe every
            > time I see that the word "MYTH" is used as a synonym
            > for "lie." This is a common practice throughout our
            > literature, journalism, social commentaries,
            > advertising messages, etc. Joseph Campbell made
            > mythology come alive with purpose and depth. Mythology
            > is a rich study.
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
            > http://personals.yahoo.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • al_radzik@yahoo.com
            ... Why? You joined it. Ws it something we said? Alf
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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              --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
              > Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service?
              > Paul

              Why?

              You joined it. Ws it something we said?<GG>

              Alf
            • Paul Olson
              Not at all...In fact I support this place.....just getting tired of eckankar...tired of being for it...tired of being against it.....I left about 3 years ago
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                Not at all...In fact I support this place.....just getting tired of
                eckankar...tired of being for it...tired of being against it.....I left
                about 3 years ago and am so glad I did finally get out after 28 years of
                delusion......but now its time to just put it away
                Paul
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <al_radzik@...>
                To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: October 29, 2001 3:57 PM
                Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies


                > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                > > Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service?
                > > Paul
                >
                > Why?
                >
                > You joined it. Ws it something we said?<GG>
                >
                > Alf
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • steffan_z@hotmail.com
                Paul - If you choose to: Select Edit My Membership or Leave Group link on the right side of the group page and follow directions. I didn t get to know you
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                  Paul -
                  If you choose to:
                  Select Edit "My Membership" or "Leave Group" link on the right side
                  of the group page and follow directions.

                  I didn't get to know you but good luck!

                  Steffan



                  --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                  > Not at all...In fact I support this place.....just getting tired of
                  > eckankar...tired of being for it...tired of being against it.....I
                  left
                  > about 3 years ago and am so glad I did finally get out after 28
                  years of
                  > delusion......but now its time to just put it away
                  > Paul
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: <al_radzik@y...>
                  > To: <eckankartruth@y...>
                  > Sent: October 29, 2001 3:57 PM
                  > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies
                  >
                  >
                  > > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                  > > > Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service?
                  > > > Paul
                  > >
                  > > Why?
                  > >
                  > > You joined it. Ws it something we said?<GG>
                  > >
                  > > Alf
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • al_radzik@yahoo.com
                  ... left ... years of ... That s really good news Paul. Best of luck to you. Alf
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                    --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                    > Not at all...In fact I support this place.....just getting tired of
                    > eckankar...tired of being for it...tired of being against it.....I
                    left
                    > about 3 years ago and am so glad I did finally get out after 28
                    years of
                    > delusion......but now its time to just put it away
                    > Paul

                    That's really good news Paul.
                    Best of luck to you.

                    Alf
                  • colleenmft@yahoo.com
                    Hi Paul... Could you please tell us why you are leaving? Colleen ... http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                      Hi Paul...
                      Could you please tell us why you are leaving?
                      Colleen

                      --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                      > Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service?
                      > Paul
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Vic Shayne" <vicshayne@y...>
                      > To: <eckankartruth@y...>
                      > Sent: October 29, 2001 12:33 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [eckankartruth] Dreams and Mythologies
                      >
                      >
                      > > --- al_radzik@y... wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I began leafing through Joseph Campbell's "Mythic
                      > > > Image" last night.....
                      > >
                      > > The works of Joseph Campbell, in my mind, are some of
                      > > the most important volumes ever to grace our
                      > > civilization. I am inclined to agree with you that
                      > > twitchell attempted to create his own mythology. His
                      > > first and lethal mistake is that mythology is formed
                      > > over time and out of the spiritual and cultural
                      > > outflow too complex to recreate as a whole and unified
                      > > system by one person. Next, twitchell did not have the
                      > > intelligence or spiritual depth to understand the
                      > > complexities of life. Therefore, he hid behind the
                      > > rationalization that there were two parts of himself
                      > > -- the inner master and the outer human -- to cover up
                      > > his faults and make an excuse for his lack of depth.
                      > > But, as my grandfather was fond of saying, "A liar has
                      > > to have a good memory." Twitchell did not. He was
                      > > caught in lies over and over again, plagiarizing and
                      > > not remembering what he had written or said only to
                      > > contradict himself on many occasions.
                      > >
                      > > Although I am personally NOT religious, nor do I
                      > > embrace any religion for myself, I feel that religion
                      > > has a purpose here for many people -- perhaps for most
                      > > people. It works well for many reasons. That being
                      > > said, I believe that one of the most wondrous and
                      > > ingenious symbols ever devised, as Campbell has noted,
                      > > is that of Jesus on the cross. This concept is
                      > > brilliant, because it evokes the metaphor of how love
                      > > and suffering go hand in hand. As Campbell explains,
                      > > with love there is suffering. In mythology, this is a
                      > > prevalent theme. Ancient peoples loved their bison
                      > > because of all the wonderful things the animal
                      > > provided, from furs to meat, and from bone tools to
                      > > shelter. But these people had to come to grips with
                      > > the terrible fact that, despite the love for this
                      > > being, they had to kill it in order to survive. Thus,
                      > > they created ritual to keep sane. The killing of this
                      > > animal that they loved, out of necessity, created
                      > > suffering.
                      > >
                      > > These kinds of brilliant metaphors and mythologies to
                      > > explain and embrace the transcendant are rich and
                      > > complex. They are the result of the outpouring of
                      > > spiritual thought and vision that Twitchell could
                      > > never have created. Even though I am not a Christian
                      > > and do not embrace any religion, it is clear to me
                      > > that when harold dares to criticize Christianity or
                      > > any other faith that sprang forth from the
                      > > complexities of mythology, he is only showing his
                      > > ignorance and complete lack of ability to understand
                      > > and appreciate the deeper meaning that underlies the
                      > > human experience.
                      > >
                      > > Lastly, and on a slightly different note...It is my
                      > > reverence for mythology that makes me cringe every
                      > > time I see that the word "MYTH" is used as a synonym
                      > > for "lie." This is a common practice throughout our
                      > > literature, journalism, social commentaries,
                      > > advertising messages, etc. Joseph Campbell made
                      > > mythology come alive with purpose and depth. Mythology
                      > > is a rich study.
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________________________
                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                      > > http://personals.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                    • colleenmft@yahoo.com
                      Paul, I understand. If you want to connect again, please do. I ve appreciated your insight and support. Regards, Colleen ... left ... years of ...
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                        Paul, I understand. If you want to connect again, please do. I've
                        appreciated your insight and support.

                        Regards,
                        Colleen
                        --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                        > Not at all...In fact I support this place.....just getting tired of
                        > eckankar...tired of being for it...tired of being against it.....I
                        left
                        > about 3 years ago and am so glad I did finally get out after 28
                        years of
                        > delusion......but now its time to just put it away
                        > Paul
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: <al_radzik@y...>
                        > To: <eckankartruth@y...>
                        > Sent: October 29, 2001 3:57 PM
                        > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies
                        >
                        >
                        > > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                        > > > Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service?
                        > > > Paul
                        > >
                        > > Why?
                        > >
                        > > You joined it. Ws it something we said?<GG>
                        > >
                        > > Alf
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                      • Paul Olson
                        Thanks...but believe it or not, I can t for the life of me, find the group page....could someone send me a URL? or a link? Thanks Paul ... From:
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                          Thanks...but believe it or not, I can't for the life of me, find the group
                          page....could someone send me a URL? or a link?
                          Thanks
                          Paul
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <steffan_z@...>
                          To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: October 29, 2001 6:43 PM
                          Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies


                          > Paul -
                          > If you choose to:
                          > Select Edit "My Membership" or "Leave Group" link on the right side
                          > of the group page and follow directions.
                          >
                          > I didn't get to know you but good luck!
                          >
                          > Steffan
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                          > > Not at all...In fact I support this place.....just getting tired of
                          > > eckankar...tired of being for it...tired of being against it.....I
                          > left
                          > > about 3 years ago and am so glad I did finally get out after 28
                          > years of
                          > > delusion......but now its time to just put it away
                          > > Paul
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: <al_radzik@y...>
                          > > To: <eckankartruth@y...>
                          > > Sent: October 29, 2001 3:57 PM
                          > > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                          > > > > Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service?
                          > > > > Paul
                          > > >
                          > > > Why?
                          > > >
                          > > > You joined it. Ws it something we said?<GG>
                          > > >
                          > > > Alf
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • lemrag3@hotmail.com
                          ... Go to the group page, sign in and you ll see the membership part on the right of the page. It has a hyperlink to leave the group. Shade and cool water on
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                            --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <
                            broker84@h...> wrote:
                            > Thanks...but believe it or not, I can't for the life of me, find the group
                            > page....could someone send me a URL? or a link?
                            > Thanks
                            > Paul

                            :-)

                            Go to the group page, sign in and you'll see
                            the membership part on the right of the
                            page. It has a hyperlink to leave the group.

                            Shade and cool water on your journey!

                            -Charlie-
                          • lemrag3@hotmail.com
                            ... the group ... Paul, the group page is http:// groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                              > Thanks...but believe it or not, I can't for the life of me, find
                              the group
                              > page....could someone send me a URL? or a link?
                              > Thanks
                              > Paul

                              Paul, the group page is http://
                              groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                            • Paul Olson
                              Thanks so much.......I havent been to that page since I signed up for this about 6 months ago.....had no idea where to go! :-) I ll be able to get off when I
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                                Thanks so much.......I havent been to that page since I signed up for this
                                about 6 months ago.....had no idea where to go! :-)
                                I'll be able to get off when I decide to now
                                Thanks again
                                Paul
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: <lemrag3@...>
                                To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: October 29, 2001 10:50 PM
                                Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies


                                > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <
                                > broker84@h...> wrote:
                                > > Thanks...but believe it or not, I can't for the life of me, find the
                                group
                                > > page....could someone send me a URL? or a link?
                                > > Thanks
                                > > Paul
                                >
                                > :-)
                                >
                                > Go to the group page, sign in and you'll see
                                > the membership part on the right of the
                                > page. It has a hyperlink to leave the group.
                                >
                                > Shade and cool water on your journey!
                                >
                                > -Charlie-
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Paul Olson
                                Another reply here for Colleen and anyone curious...... I put up a web page that lightly touches on why I chose to leave eckankar and I think it s probably
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 29, 2001
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                                  Another reply here for Colleen and anyone curious......

                                  I put up a web page that lightly touches on why I chose to leave eckankar
                                  and I think it's probably mostly the same reasons that long time members
                                  decide to leave. The address is:
                                  http://members.home.net/broker84/eck.html

                                  WIth the exceptions of Rich, Zchela, Cher, and some others I can think of
                                  over at ARE, I think most members of eckankar feel that they are on a valid
                                  spiritual path and think, as I did, that they are growing spiritually as a
                                  result of their involvement. Most are not manipulative gestapo, mind
                                  controlling clones. Most are loving wonderfull people who seek truth and
                                  have simply been subtly decieved for years and don't know it yet.....Like
                                  you and me perhaps.

                                  I haven't seen too much damage in this, as long as the member stays away
                                  from clergy and simply follows the teachings of the heart that can be found
                                  in eckankar....It's interesting to me that most of the long time members of
                                  eckankar do eventually leave, and its not because they didn't "make the
                                  grade", it's because they find some truth and it forces us to leave.....we
                                  simply cannot continue to live the lie, as comfortable as it is!......We
                                  must go in order to remain honest to ourselves.

                                  Of course, there are those who get really involved with the personality
                                  stuff in eckankar....I was one as a new member...I almost worshiped you and
                                  Jerry at the LA center in the early 70's.....and later was almost worshipped
                                  myself in the city where I lived as a 6th initiate......AND I saw where this
                                  can lead as well.....look at Jerry as an example....

                                  In eckankar I witnessed a 5th initiate "borrow" $10,000 from another chela.
                                  It was a loan for 2 weeks to pay a house payment supposedly, until a
                                  refinance loan came through which would repay the loan.....EXCEPT...the guy
                                  who "Borrowed" the money, decided to deposit it in an offshore bank...and
                                  never repaid the loan. My friend sued him and won, but the funds weren't in
                                  the US and could not be attached.....The "borrower" decided to do a chapter
                                  7 bankruptcy to eliminate the judgement!.....Now, there is an example of
                                  spiritual growth yes? :-)

                                  The KICKER was when the "borrower" (ooops, I mean Thief), a high initiate in
                                  eckankar, told the chela "I guess it was your Karma to lose that money!".
                                  Good Grief......

                                  Another example of H.I conduct is the old story about using ones supposed
                                  spirituality, or status to "Help" another chela through some problem or
                                  another through sharing LOVE, the bedroom kind!.....This is so common that
                                  it's silly! I knew a lady in eckankar who thought that if she slept with
                                  the right people it would help her through the initiations!!!.....Good
                                  Grief! Can you imagine hearing that from someone who is supposed to be a
                                  Priest?

                                  I got a call one night from a new chela who had just left a high initiate at
                                  his house.....She had gone to him for help with an emotional situation. He
                                  decided that she needed to be "Rebirthed"....which is a practice frowned
                                  upon by eckankar, but obviously not by this high initiate.....He met with
                                  her, laid her down on his bed and had her do the rebirthing exercise.....for
                                  anyone who isn't familiar with this, it involves continouous breathing which
                                  floods oxygen and carbon dioxide into the bloodstream, causes an interesting
                                  trance like effect, and can definately cause a painfull symptom known as
                                  "Tetne", which involves extream numbness to the extremeties, pain in the
                                  hands and fingers, possibly the whole arm and other symptoms as
                                  well......The lady was a shambles after she left the H.I. He had wanted to
                                  sleep with her during the exercies......she left before the meditation was
                                  complete and she was in a really bad state......

                                  She came over to my house where I continued the Rebirthing exercise with her
                                  until conclusion....her tetne subsided and we talked all night about how we
                                  shouldn't start into some of these spiritual exercises unless we are dealing
                                  with someone who is skilled in them, and who has ethics.....Of course, as a
                                  chela, she trusted this other HI to be a noble person and was sadly
                                  disappointed.......I didn't desire or try to sleep with her. Perhaps this
                                  was a good thing afterall because she left eckankar very shortly
                                  thereafter.......She is now a black belt in Karate and I don't think another
                                  "priest' will mess with her!....She is very happy today.

                                  I posted the story about my 3rd initiation experience on ARE before I knew
                                  how toxic that group is....thinking that they might learn something......An
                                  8th initiate did this initiation and it was at the Wings of the Wind house
                                  in Sedona, eckankar property. I think it was in 1976 or so.....After the
                                  group initiation, this 8th initiate told us all about the wonderful benefits
                                  of drinking our own and other peoples urine!....She asked us if we wanted to
                                  drink Urine with her.....I declined!.....SSheesh......that one had me
                                  thinking and rationalizing for days!....

                                  I know of a natural physician in eckankar who met one chela and diagnosed
                                  her with a physical condition and offered a course of treatement that would
                                  cost $200 dollars.......all well and good.
                                  EXCEPT that another person I know, who had substantial monetary resourses,
                                  and was an eckist as well, went to the same doctor with the same symptoms
                                  (about 6 months later), and was prescribed the same course treatement for
                                  $20,000 dollars.....this person was told that it could be a life threatening
                                  condition (it wasn't)...and was scared to death by this "High Initiate
                                  doctor".....Hmmmmmmm.....makes ya wonder.....

                                  Or should I talk about the spiritual aide session where a frinnd of mine, a
                                  3rd initiate who had just been jilted by her 5th initiate boyfriend, and was
                                  so very upset and hurt, was told by the 6th initiate ESA, that "emotional
                                  situations aren't spiritual and we won't talk about this stuff in the
                                  session".....Good grief folks, what the heck is an ESA session for unless it
                                  is for what ails us?....NOTHING except death can upset us as much as losing
                                  a loved one, especially when the jilting is done hurtfully, callously and
                                  without regard for the feelings of the person being jilted!......If our
                                  relationships and loves aren't a part of our spirituality, than what is?

                                  The young Buddhist who visited an eck worship service wanted to talk about
                                  how the spiritual exercises effected the Chakras, a system he was familiar
                                  with and had studied for years......He is told by the presiding H.I. that
                                  All that chakra nonesence is "lower astral garbage" and is "below what we do
                                  in eckankar".....Now that is definately the way to reach someones heart and
                                  set them on the spiritual path! :-)

                                  I won't bother to talk about another 5th initiate who just had a thing for
                                  the young ones in eckankar....He was about 35 years old or so and always
                                  went after the 15 - 20 year old female chelas, especially the new
                                  ones....sexually.

                                  I also have a friend who told me about 2 high initiates in eckankar who were
                                  honcho's at the local eck center....they conspired to get someone to be less
                                  involved in the center and the local eck activities because "He is
                                  different" (He might have been gay.) SO WHAT....don't these h.i's get
                                  it...its about love... not sex!

                                  I know an eck h.i. who may have left by now...but he was so afraid that
                                  aliens were invading earth...he kept an automatic weapon handy just in case
                                  he was kidnapped......His wife, another ex-eckist now....told a friend of
                                  mine that "Those people who work at McDonalds...You know, the ones who look
                                  and act funny...are actually alien/human crossbreads and normally have
                                  implants in their heads"....(The People she was talking about had Downs
                                  syndrome) Talk about ignorance and superstition.....and this in those who
                                  are supposedly beyond Jesus and Buddha and all the other spritual leaders of
                                  the earth!......

                                  This guy actually tried to get me to fly him ( I was a working commercial
                                  pilot at the time) to a site in New Mexico, in a Military Restricted
                                  Airspace area, where he told me there was an alien base.....He said we would
                                  land on a dirt road, and hike a mile or so to the alien site!....Good Grief,
                                  I told him that if the aliens had crossed intersteller space, and had
                                  invaded our planet.....did he really think that a Cessna 182 prop plane
                                  could sneak up on them?.....No Brainer folks!

                                  I could go on and on and on about the foibles I saw in 28 years of
                                  eckankar.......but you all have your own stories and experiences that have
                                  lead you to where you are today and those are your realtiy and much more
                                  valid to you than anything I could ever say.....and rightly so.

                                  It's interesting to me that I have so many stories about the foibles of the
                                  high initiates in eckankar because I only spent about 2 years living in a
                                  major city with a large eckankar population.....the town I lived in back
                                  then when all these stories occurred was a middle size city with only about
                                  30 active chelas at the eck center....and about 120 on our mailing
                                  list......Well, if all this stuff happens in a smaller city....and its only
                                  in 1 city.....just imagine the scope of this shit that happens all over the
                                  world...especially if eckankar actually has as many members as it claims
                                  (which I never believed anyway).....The spiritual corruption of this group
                                  must be astronomical in scope!

                                  I look at these H.I. LEADERS in eckankar, these supposed priests and ask
                                  myself....Is this the type of people, the type of counselors that Harold
                                  Klemp, Darwin Gross and Paul Twitchell spiritually helped, molded,
                                  initiated, and trained to become Priests, Clergy, Leaders,,,,The chosen
                                  people?....If so...What kind of product do these guys produce?.....AND do I
                                  want to be one of them?......Could these personalities possibly house the
                                  high spiritual essence that they claim?.....How much damage do they cause
                                  worldwide daily?.....Do I want to be counted as one of them?......HELL
                                  NO...GOD NO!!!!!

                                  Thank Whatever, that we have found a better, more honest, more fulfilling
                                  way to approach spiritual truth....even if that truth is a complete
                                  rejection of spirituality......it is far far better than living the lie of
                                  eckankar....

                                  In my own case, I have found a much more profound viewpoint to work
                                  from....a much more open attitude about life and spirituality. I can breath
                                  easier and feel better because I'm not trying to live up to anyone elses
                                  defination of what spirituality is or should be!....Nor am I selling another
                                  persons brand of questionable spirituality to any other soul........

                                  I learned to "Be Myself"....

                                  Thanks for listening.....feel free to repost this but please delete my
                                  e-mail and name if you do so. I get enough junk e-mail here....I lost the
                                  link to your execkankar site.

                                  Paul

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Colleen Russell" <colleen9@...>
                                  To: "Paul Olson" <broker84@...>
                                  Sent: October 29, 2001 8:56 PM
                                  Subject: How have you been?


                                  > Hi Paul,
                                  > I haven't heard from you since you first corresponded with me and I just
                                  > wonder if something I have done in the group or otherwise has offended
                                  you.
                                  >
                                  > I also saw that you wanted to know how to unsubscribe to eckankartruth.
                                  >
                                  > And, you haven't responded to my invitation to join execkankar.
                                  >
                                  > I don't mean to imply that I want to "coerce" you into doing anything you
                                  > aren't comfortable with. I'm just wondering what your honest response is
                                  to
                                  > the posts on a.r.e. and the execkankar group.
                                  >
                                  > I would really like to have a reply.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks, Paul.
                                  >
                                  > Colleen
                                  >
                                  > Colleen
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: <lemrag3@...>
                                  To: <eckankartruth@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: October 29, 2001 10:52 PM
                                  Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies


                                  > > Thanks...but believe it or not, I can't for the life of me, find
                                  > the group
                                  > > page....could someone send me a URL? or a link?
                                  > > Thanks
                                  > > Paul
                                  >
                                  > Paul, the group page is http://
                                  > groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Sharon
                                  Hi Paul ... I m sort of away from computer access right now (using a public computer) & saw your previous note, and some after that I didn t get to reading
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 30, 2001
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                                    Hi Paul ...

                                    I'm sort of away from computer access right now (using a public
                                    computer) & saw your previous note, and some after that I didn't get
                                    to reading yet...

                                    Anyway...everyone else might want to know, since I'm not sure if you
                                    wanted to "unjoin" or just stop getting daily emails....in either "my
                                    groups" or "my preferences" there's an option you choose, whether to
                                    get messages here by individual email, a daily digest, or not to have
                                    anything sent & just read it here on the web. Since I wasn't sure, I
                                    changed your setting to "no emails".

                                    The way you receive this is something you generally choose when you
                                    join, but if anyone has any problems I can personally delete your
                                    membership or change your settings, if you can't find out how to do
                                    it yourself.

                                    Looks like some interesting conversation here, and I have a *lot* of
                                    catching up to do! Can't do it right now, though...unfortunately,
                                    the place where I'm using the computer is setting off my
                                    allergies...and I've gotta run! People are looking at me strangely,
                                    like I've got Anthrax or something! <ggg>

                                    I need a ciggie...it'll calm down my suddenly overflowing sinuses!

                                    Happy Halloween, everyone!

                                    Hugs,

                                    Sharon



                                    --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                                    > Not at all...In fact I support this place.....just getting tired of
                                    > eckankar...tired of being for it...tired of being against it.....I
                                    left
                                    > about 3 years ago and am so glad I did finally get out after 28
                                    years of
                                    > delusion......but now its time to just put it away
                                    > Paul
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: <al_radzik@y...>
                                    > To: <eckankartruth@y...>
                                    > Sent: October 29, 2001 3:57 PM
                                    > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                                    > > > Does anyone know how to Unsubscribe from this service?
                                    > > > Paul
                                    > >
                                    > > Why?
                                    > >
                                    > > You joined it. Ws it something we said?<GG>
                                    > >
                                    > > Alf
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                  • steffan_z@hotmail.com
                                    Wow Paul! Lookout for misbehaving HI eckbots! They could be anywhere! I thought of the a.r.e. drones right away! ….BWAHAHAHA!!!.... I can really relate to
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 30, 2001
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                                      Wow Paul! Lookout for misbehaving HI eckbots! They could be anywhere!
                                      I thought of the a.r.e. drones right away! ….BWAHAHAHA!!!....

                                      I can really relate to these experiences of yours. I do agree that
                                      most eckists are truly nice people but then there are the others.
                                      From my encounters while I was in eckankar I have to say that the
                                      majority of high initiates I've been around and have met were narrow-
                                      minded, rude and self-righteous people. And there's more…lots more
                                      of experiences with the hierarchy of eckankars' finest. I guess that
                                      supposed God-realized enlightened level of spiritual attainment has
                                      been confirmed in their minds and gives them some kind of spiritual
                                      sanctified justification to act as they so desire.

                                      Steffan

                                      --- In eckankartruth@y..., "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...> wrote:
                                      > Another reply here for Colleen and anyone curious......
                                      >
                                      > I put up a web page that lightly touches on why I chose to leave
                                      eckankar
                                      > and I think it's probably mostly the same reasons that long time
                                      members
                                      > decide to leave. The address is:
                                      > http://members.home.net/broker84/eck.html
                                      >
                                      > WIth the exceptions of Rich, Zchela, Cher, and some others I can
                                      think of
                                      > over at ARE, I think most members of eckankar feel that they are
                                      on a valid
                                      > spiritual path and think, as I did, that they are growing
                                      spiritually as a
                                      > result of their involvement. Most are not manipulative gestapo,
                                      mind
                                      > controlling clones. Most are loving wonderfull people who seek
                                      truth and
                                      > have simply been subtly decieved for years and don't know it
                                      yet.....Like
                                      > you and me perhaps.
                                      >
                                      > I haven't seen too much damage in this, as long as the member
                                      stays away
                                      > from clergy and simply follows the teachings of the heart that can
                                      be found
                                      > in eckankar....It's interesting to me that most of the long time
                                      members of
                                      > eckankar do eventually leave, and its not because they
                                      didn't "make the
                                      > grade", it's because they find some truth and it forces us to
                                      leave.....we
                                      > simply cannot continue to live the lie, as comfortable as it
                                      is!......We
                                      > must go in order to remain honest to ourselves.
                                      >
                                      > Of course, there are those who get really involved with the
                                      personality
                                      > stuff in eckankar....I was one as a new member...I almost
                                      worshiped you and
                                      > Jerry at the LA center in the early 70's.....and later was almost
                                      worshipped
                                      > myself in the city where I lived as a 6th initiate......AND I saw
                                      where this
                                      > can lead as well.....look at Jerry as an example....
                                      >
                                      > In eckankar I witnessed a 5th initiate "borrow" $10,000 from
                                      another chela.
                                      > It was a loan for 2 weeks to pay a house payment supposedly, until
                                      a
                                      > refinance loan came through which would repay the
                                      loan.....EXCEPT...the guy
                                      > who "Borrowed" the money, decided to deposit it in an offshore
                                      bank...and
                                      > never repaid the loan. My friend sued him and won, but the funds
                                      weren't in
                                      > the US and could not be attached.....The "borrower" decided to do
                                      a chapter
                                      > 7 bankruptcy to eliminate the judgement!.....Now, there is an
                                      example of
                                      > spiritual growth yes? :-)
                                      >
                                      > The KICKER was when the "borrower" (ooops, I mean Thief), a high
                                      initiate in
                                      > eckankar, told the chela "I guess it was your Karma to lose that
                                      money!".
                                      > Good Grief......
                                      >
                                      > Another example of H.I conduct is the old story about using ones
                                      supposed
                                      > spirituality, or status to "Help" another chela through some
                                      problem or
                                      > another through sharing LOVE, the bedroom kind!.....This is so
                                      common that
                                      > it's silly! I knew a lady in eckankar who thought that if she
                                      slept with
                                      > the right people it would help her through the
                                      initiations!!!.....Good
                                      > Grief! Can you imagine hearing that from someone who is supposed
                                      to be a
                                      > Priest?
                                      >
                                      > I got a call one night from a new chela who had just left a high
                                      initiate at
                                      > his house.....She had gone to him for help with an emotional
                                      situation. He
                                      > decided that she needed to be "Rebirthed"....which is a practice
                                      frowned
                                      > upon by eckankar, but obviously not by this high initiate.....He
                                      met with
                                      > her, laid her down on his bed and had her do the rebirthing
                                      exercise.....for
                                      > anyone who isn't familiar with this, it involves continouous
                                      breathing which
                                      > floods oxygen and carbon dioxide into the bloodstream, causes an
                                      interesting
                                      > trance like effect, and can definately cause a painfull symptom
                                      known as
                                      > "Tetne", which involves extream numbness to the extremeties, pain
                                      in the
                                      > hands and fingers, possibly the whole arm and other symptoms as
                                      > well......The lady was a shambles after she left the H.I. He had
                                      wanted to
                                      > sleep with her during the exercies......she left before the
                                      meditation was
                                      > complete and she was in a really bad state......
                                      >
                                      > She came over to my house where I continued the Rebirthing
                                      exercise with her
                                      > until conclusion....her tetne subsided and we talked all night
                                      about how we
                                      > shouldn't start into some of these spiritual exercises unless we
                                      are dealing
                                      > with someone who is skilled in them, and who has ethics.....Of
                                      course, as a
                                      > chela, she trusted this other HI to be a noble person and was sadly
                                      > disappointed.......I didn't desire or try to sleep with her.
                                      Perhaps this
                                      > was a good thing afterall because she left eckankar very shortly
                                      > thereafter.......She is now a black belt in Karate and I don't
                                      think another
                                      > "priest' will mess with her!....She is very happy today.
                                      >
                                      > I posted the story about my 3rd initiation experience on ARE
                                      before I knew
                                      > how toxic that group is....thinking that they might learn
                                      something......An
                                      > 8th initiate did this initiation and it was at the Wings of the
                                      Wind house
                                      > in Sedona, eckankar property. I think it was in 1976 or
                                      so.....After the
                                      > group initiation, this 8th initiate told us all about the
                                      wonderful benefits
                                      > of drinking our own and other peoples urine!....She asked us if we
                                      wanted to
                                      > drink Urine with her.....I declined!.....SSheesh......that one had
                                      me
                                      > thinking and rationalizing for days!....
                                      >
                                      > I know of a natural physician in eckankar who met one chela and
                                      diagnosed
                                      > her with a physical condition and offered a course of treatement
                                      that would
                                      > cost $200 dollars.......all well and good.
                                      > EXCEPT that another person I know, who had substantial monetary
                                      resourses,
                                      > and was an eckist as well, went to the same doctor with the same
                                      symptoms
                                      > (about 6 months later), and was prescribed the same course
                                      treatement for
                                      > $20,000 dollars.....this person was told that it could be a life
                                      threatening
                                      > condition (it wasn't)...and was scared to death by this "High
                                      Initiate
                                      > doctor".....Hmmmmmmm.....makes ya wonder.....
                                      >
                                      > Or should I talk about the spiritual aide session where a frinnd
                                      of mine, a
                                      > 3rd initiate who had just been jilted by her 5th initiate
                                      boyfriend, and was
                                      > so very upset and hurt, was told by the 6th initiate ESA,
                                      that "emotional
                                      > situations aren't spiritual and we won't talk about this stuff in
                                      the
                                      > session".....Good grief folks, what the heck is an ESA session for
                                      unless it
                                      > is for what ails us?....NOTHING except death can upset us as much
                                      as losing
                                      > a loved one, especially when the jilting is done hurtfully,
                                      callously and
                                      > without regard for the feelings of the person being
                                      jilted!......If our
                                      > relationships and loves aren't a part of our spirituality, than
                                      what is?
                                      >
                                      > The young Buddhist who visited an eck worship service wanted to
                                      talk about
                                      > how the spiritual exercises effected the Chakras, a system he was
                                      familiar
                                      > with and had studied for years......He is told by the presiding
                                      H.I. that
                                      > All that chakra nonesence is "lower astral garbage" and is "below
                                      what we do
                                      > in eckankar".....Now that is definately the way to reach someones
                                      heart and
                                      > set them on the spiritual path! :-)
                                      >
                                      > I won't bother to talk about another 5th initiate who just had a
                                      thing for
                                      > the young ones in eckankar....He was about 35 years old or so and
                                      always
                                      > went after the 15 - 20 year old female chelas, especially the new
                                      > ones....sexually.
                                      >
                                      > I also have a friend who told me about 2 high initiates in
                                      eckankar who were
                                      > honcho's at the local eck center....they conspired to get someone
                                      to be less
                                      > involved in the center and the local eck activities because "He is
                                      > different" (He might have been gay.) SO WHAT....don't these
                                      h.i's get
                                      > it...its about love... not sex!
                                      >
                                      > I know an eck h.i. who may have left by now...but he was so afraid
                                      that
                                      > aliens were invading earth...he kept an automatic weapon handy
                                      just in case
                                      > he was kidnapped......His wife, another ex-eckist now....told a
                                      friend of
                                      > mine that "Those people who work at McDonalds...You know, the ones
                                      who look
                                      > and act funny...are actually alien/human crossbreads and normally
                                      have
                                      > implants in their heads"....(The People she was talking about had
                                      Downs
                                      > syndrome) Talk about ignorance and superstition.....and this in
                                      those who
                                      > are supposedly beyond Jesus and Buddha and all the other spritual
                                      leaders of
                                      > the earth!......
                                      >
                                      > This guy actually tried to get me to fly him ( I was a working
                                      commercial
                                      > pilot at the time) to a site in New Mexico, in a Military
                                      Restricted
                                      > Airspace area, where he told me there was an alien base.....He
                                      said we would
                                      > land on a dirt road, and hike a mile or so to the alien
                                      site!....Good Grief,
                                      > I told him that if the aliens had crossed intersteller space, and
                                      had
                                      > invaded our planet.....did he really think that a Cessna 182 prop
                                      plane
                                      > could sneak up on them?.....No Brainer folks!
                                      >
                                      > I could go on and on and on about the foibles I saw in 28 years of
                                      > eckankar.......but you all have your own stories and experiences
                                      that have
                                      > lead you to where you are today and those are your realtiy and
                                      much more
                                      > valid to you than anything I could ever say.....and rightly so.
                                      >
                                      > It's interesting to me that I have so many stories about the
                                      foibles of the
                                      > high initiates in eckankar because I only spent about 2 years
                                      living in a
                                      > major city with a large eckankar population.....the town I lived
                                      in back
                                      > then when all these stories occurred was a middle size city with
                                      only about
                                      > 30 active chelas at the eck center....and about 120 on our mailing
                                      > list......Well, if all this stuff happens in a smaller city....and
                                      its only
                                      > in 1 city.....just imagine the scope of this shit that happens all
                                      over the
                                      > world...especially if eckankar actually has as many members as it
                                      claims
                                      > (which I never believed anyway).....The spiritual corruption of
                                      this group
                                      > must be astronomical in scope!
                                      >
                                      > I look at these H.I. LEADERS in eckankar, these supposed priests
                                      and ask
                                      > myself....Is this the type of people, the type of counselors that
                                      Harold
                                      > Klemp, Darwin Gross and Paul Twitchell spiritually helped, molded,
                                      > initiated, and trained to become Priests, Clergy, Leaders,,,,The
                                      chosen
                                      > people?....If so...What kind of product do these guys
                                      produce?.....AND do I
                                      > want to be one of them?......Could these personalities possibly
                                      house the
                                      > high spiritual essence that they claim?.....How much damage do
                                      they cause
                                      > worldwide daily?.....Do I want to be counted as one of
                                      them?......HELL
                                      > NO...GOD NO!!!!!
                                      >
                                      > Thank Whatever, that we have found a better, more honest, more
                                      fulfilling
                                      > way to approach spiritual truth....even if that truth is a complete
                                      > rejection of spirituality......it is far far better than living
                                      the lie of
                                      > eckankar....
                                      >
                                      > In my own case, I have found a much more profound viewpoint to work
                                      > from....a much more open attitude about life and spirituality. I
                                      can breath
                                      > easier and feel better because I'm not trying to live up to anyone
                                      elses
                                      > defination of what spirituality is or should be!....Nor am I
                                      selling another
                                      > persons brand of questionable spirituality to any other
                                      soul........
                                      >
                                      > I learned to "Be Myself"....
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for listening.....feel free to repost this but please
                                      delete my
                                      > e-mail and name if you do so. I get enough junk e-mail here....I
                                      lost the
                                      > link to your execkankar site.
                                      >
                                      > Paul
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Colleen Russell" <colleen9@i...>
                                      > To: "Paul Olson" <broker84@h...>
                                      > Sent: October 29, 2001 8:56 PM
                                      > Subject: How have you been?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Hi Paul,
                                      > > I haven't heard from you since you first corresponded with me
                                      and I just
                                      > > wonder if something I have done in the group or otherwise has
                                      offended
                                      > you.
                                      > >
                                      > > I also saw that you wanted to know how to unsubscribe to
                                      eckankartruth.
                                      > >
                                      > > And, you haven't responded to my invitation to join execkankar.
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't mean to imply that I want to "coerce" you into doing
                                      anything you
                                      > > aren't comfortable with. I'm just wondering what your honest
                                      response is
                                      > to
                                      > > the posts on a.r.e. and the execkankar group.
                                      > >
                                      > > I would really like to have a reply.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks, Paul.
                                      > >
                                      > > Colleen
                                      > >
                                      > > Colleen
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: <lemrag3@h...>
                                      > To: <eckankartruth@y...>
                                      > Sent: October 29, 2001 10:52 PM
                                      > Subject: [eckankartruth] Re: Dreams and Mythologies
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > > Thanks...but believe it or not, I can't for the life of me,
                                      find
                                      > > the group
                                      > > > page....could someone send me a URL? or a link?
                                      > > > Thanks
                                      > > > Paul
                                      > >
                                      > > Paul, the group page is http://
                                      > > groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                    • colleenmft@yahoo.com
                                      Thanks, Paul, for doing us the service of telling us your story. It is sickening to see what these HI s have done in the (perverted) name of love. I m glad
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 30, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thanks, Paul, for doing us the service of telling us your story. It
                                        is sickening to see what these HI's have done "in the (perverted)
                                        name of love." I'm glad I became inactive when I did so I wouldn't
                                        see all this.

                                        I have stories of my own which I will post in time.

                                        Love,

                                        Colleen
                                      • broker84@home.com
                                        ... Colleen, Just be sure that you can back up whatever story you intend to tell....I really got thrashed over at ARE with that post....not a problem here
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                          --- In eckankartruth@y..., colleenmft@y... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Thanks, Paul, for doing us the service of telling us your story. It
                                          > is sickening to see what these HI's have done "in the (perverted)
                                          > name of love." I'm glad I became inactive when I did so I wouldn't
                                          > see all this.
                                          >
                                          > I have stories of my own which I will post in time.
                                          >
                                          > Love,
                                          >
                                          > Colleen

                                          Colleen,
                                          Just be sure that you can back up whatever story you intend to
                                          tell....I really got thrashed over at ARE with that post....not a
                                          problem here though...I asked them if they wanted ME TO USE NAMES as i
                                          was telling the complete truth and just trying to be kind to the
                                          eckists there in case any of these supposed h.i's were friends of
                                          theirs.....unlike them, I do feel good about exercising
                                          confidentiality and I do tell the truth.
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