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Re: [earlyflute] Re: Artificial ivory

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  • Terry McGee
    Hi all I bought some sheets of Micarta back in the 1970 s - it s a sad testament to the fact I don t get called on much for ivory rings that I m still using
    Message 1 of 24 , May 31, 2009
      Hi all

      I bought some sheets of Micarta back in the 1970's - it's a sad testament
      to the fact I don't get called on much for ivory rings that I'm still
      using it. The stuff I have is plain and is made for imitation
      bone-handled knives (which will give you an idea what it looks like). It
      starts creamy white when turned but quickly takes on a more acceptable
      creamy-yellow. It's pretty strong, a bit harder to turn with hand tools
      than wood, but doesn't seem to have any vices - it certainly isn't
      brittle. I got it in 12" square sheets of 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8" thick which
      meets all my simple needs, but it might be available in thicker sheets or
      other shapes.

      It's possible the manufacturers could come up with something even more
      appropriate to our needs if someone tipped them off to what we would
      like. Individual makers might not use much, but worldwide, including
      pipemakers etc would. Perhaps they already have and I'm the last to
      know! There's some stuff about it at
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micarta, and it gives the manufacturer's site
      as http://www.norplex-micarta.com/

      Terry

      On Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:53:35 +1000, Michael Hubbert <hubberts@...>
      wrote:

      > Rinaldo, et al,
      >
      > I looked up those two sites. Masecraft lists Casein under materials
      > but it is an inactive link. It doesn't look as though they are
      > actually offering it for sale. The other site turns up no results
      > for a search of casein. They do list some ivory alternate that they
      > are showing as having been carved into chess pieces and so on, but
      > give no indication of what it is made of.
      >
      > I have long used the "Alternative Ivory" from GPS that Rod
      > mentions. It seems to be the stuff that most woodwind makers are
      > using. I really don't like it very much and have pined for something
      > better. It is not very durable in that it can chip badly upon
      > impact. That is not so much an issue with flutes and the like but I
      > build Irish pipes which are more prone to be kept in a case where
      > parts can hit against one another. I try to warn customers about
      > this and always hope that they will try to isolate chanters and
      > drones and the like with some kind of padding so they will not bang
      > together. As for the issue of turnability, the GPS stuff is at about
      > the bottom of the list. It is no fun to work.
      >
      > Many highland pipe makers as well as some Irish pipe makers used to
      > use a white bakelite material that is quite strong and durable, turns
      > well, and in time develops an amber sort of color. Some collectors
      > refer to it as "butterscotch bakelite" I believe it was first used
      > in the second or third decade of the 20th century. I don't think it
      > is available now and have hoarded little bits and pieces for use in
      > repair work. I have also seen a material, said to be casein (made
      > from milk I guess?) used by the Scottish pipemaker Robertson. It
      > ages badly and tends to turn a somewhat grey green color in areas
      > where the surface finish is worn.
      >
      > Like I said, I'd be really happy to find a good substitute for the
      > GPS product. I will say though that it does look pretty good when
      > finished to a high polish.
      >
      > One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is
      > and artificial marble countertop material. I think it must be
      > fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for bridge-
      > saddles and nuts. I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.
      >
      > Another material that is really interesting is the large seed or nut
      > from the Ivory nut palm. It is not to be confused with tagua nut.
      > Ivory nut palm nuts are around 2 to 4 inches in diameter with a
      > hollow center. The ones I've seen were about the size of a large
      > apple I trepanned a few cylinders out of a nut that I was given as a
      > sample and turned up a few trial rings. It is very hard and dense.
      > It also turns and finishes very well. I went at one chunk with a
      > hammer and had to hit it really hard in order to do any damage. The
      > color varies from a creamy off-white to an amber-brown. I have seen
      > a very handsome set of Highland pipes mounted with this material.
      > Though none of the unworked nuts that I have seen would have yielded
      > the sizes that were on those pipes, it would be no problem getting
      > out the sizes needed for your average baroque or classical flute.
      > Apparently the material resists gluing so has to have some mechanical
      > connection to hold in place such as a few annular grooves on mating
      > surfaces so as to form kind of O-rings of the glue.
      >
      > Michael Hubbert
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On May 31, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Rinaldo S. Coelho wrote:
      >
      >>
      >>
      >> My Casein suppliers:
      >>
      >> http://www.masecraftsupply.com/
      >> http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/
      >>
      >> Rinaldo Coelho
      >>
      >> Michael Dunn wrote:
      >> > Casein has received great reviews for keyboard naturals.
      >> >
      >> > Michael
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > ------------------------------------
      >> >
      >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >



      --
      Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs
      3 Bunderra Court (off Bunderra Circuit), Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
      Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837; Fax +61 (0)2 4471 2578
      Email: terry@...; Web: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com
    • Colin Jardine
      on the subject of imitation-ivory, has anbody mentioned using bone instead? I know Gerhard Kowalewski uses some kind of bone for his ornaments on flutes. I
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2009

        on the subject of imitation-ivory, has anbody mentioned using bone instead?
        I know Gerhard Kowalewski uses some kind of bone for his ornaments on flutes.
        I dont know which type of bone it is, but can somebody with more experience say somethinig on the subject, as I personally find the artificial ivory very plastic-like, which it of course is, but surely there must be something more natural to use if we cannot use ivory itself.
        Would appreciate contributions from makers and players
        Thanks
        Colin

      • Mary Kirkpatrick
        I do have several years of experience with Corian for mounts on my oboes, and I can recommend it wholeheartedly. The difficulty is procuring it -- you can t
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2009
          I do have several years of experience with Corian for mounts on my
          oboes, and I can recommend it wholeheartedly. The difficulty is
          procuring it -- you can't order it in less than a 4x8' sheet, and
          it's quite expensive. But ask any company that installs kitchens if
          they have any offcuts in "Bone" or "Almond", the colors which most
          resemble ivory. Often a whole sink/counter installation comes with a
          backsplash which may not be used if the customer wants tile on the
          wall instead, so the extra piece will sit in storage gathering dust
          and they will be happy to sell it. Corian comes in thicknesses of
          1/2" (probably good for flutes) or 3/4" (now hard to find.)

          DuPont (the manufacturer) is a bit funny about selling Corian only
          through trained and licensed installers. The installers may tell you
          that to glue it you need a special glue of the right color to bond
          it. But, you can double the thickness just fine by gluing with
          ordinary slow-setting epoxy -- if you glue adjacent surfaces (to get
          around any color variation) and get the surfaces so polished first
          that there is a vaccuum resistance to pulling them apart. The join
          will be invisible and you don't have to bother coloring the glue.
          Nitric acid can be used to darken the color a bit and get a more
          antique look.

          Corian resists impact well, turns easily and polishes up well,
          altogether very much like ivory to work. The main reason I like it
          is for the tonal properties -- it is heavy like ivory, and a Corian
          mount (especially of double thickness) on the top joint of an oboe
          really increases the soloistic properties. You get more projection
          and better response especially in the high notes. It's like the
          effect of choosing really hard wood for the top joint, only more of
          the same. I don't know if a flute would have a similar sensitivity
          to extra hardness or weight in a particular place? (just curious.)

          Mary Kirkpatrick





          One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is
          and artificial marble countertop material. I think it must be
          fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for
          bridge-saddles and nuts. I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.
        • Colin Saint-Martin
          Following this thread of ivory substitutes , I heard not long ago about the possibility of using holly-wood which when harvested in cold months yields a
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 1, 2009
            Following this thread of "ivory substitutes", I heard not long ago about the possibility of using holly-wood which when harvested in cold months yields a remarkably dense, white wood.  Have any of you makers actually tried this? 
            Best,
            Colin


            De : Mary Kirkpatrick <mkirk7@...>
            À : earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
            Envoyé le : Lundi, 1 Juin 2009, 9h07mn 03s
            Objet : Re: [earlyflute] Re: Artificial ivory -- Corian

            I do have several years of experience with Corian for mounts on my
            oboes, and I can recommend it wholeheartedly. The difficulty is
            procuring it -- you can't order it in less than a 4x8' sheet, and
            it's quite expensive. But ask any company that installs kitchens if
            they have any offcuts in "Bone" or "Almond", the colors which most
            resemble ivory. Often a whole sink/counter installation comes with a
            backsplash which may not be used if the customer wants tile on the
            wall instead, so the extra piece will sit in storage gathering dust
            and they will be happy to sell it. Corian comes in thicknesses of
            1/2" (probably good for flutes) or 3/4" (now hard to find.)

            DuPont (the manufacturer) is a bit funny about selling Corian only
            through trained and licensed installers. The installers may tell you
            that to glue it you need a special glue of the right color to bond
            it. But, you can double the thickness just fine by gluing with
            ordinary slow-setting epoxy -- if you glue adjacent surfaces (to get
            around any color variation) and get the surfaces so polished first
            that there is a vaccuum resistance to pulling them apart. The join
            will be invisible and you don't have to bother coloring the glue.
            Nitric acid can be used to darken the color a bit and get a more
            antique look.

            Corian resists impact well, turns easily and polishes up well,
            altogether very much like ivory to work. The main reason I like it
            is for the tonal properties -- it is heavy like ivory, and a Corian
            mount (especially of double thickness) on the top joint of an oboe
            really increases the soloistic properties. You get more projection
            and better response especially in the high notes. It's like the
            effect of choosing really hard wood for the top joint, only more of
            the same. I don't know if a flute would have a similar sensitivity
            to extra hardness or weight in a particular place? (just curious.)

            Mary Kirkpatrick

            One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is
            and artificial marble countertop material. I think it must be
            fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for
            bridge-saddles and nuts. I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.


          • Rinaldo S. Coelho
            Hi, My last contacts was with Craft Supplies. I`m not a specialist on artificial ivory. My instruments were made by a luthier who use this materials.
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 1, 2009
              Hi,

              My last contacts was with Craft Supplies.
              I`m not a specialist on artificial ivory.
              My instruments were made by a luthier who use this materials.

              http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Pen_Making___Pen_Blanks___Alternative_Ivory_Blank___alt_ivory?Args=

              Rinaldo

              Michael Hubbert wrote:
              Rinaldo, et al,

              I looked up those two sites.   Masecraft lists Casein under materials but it is an inactive link. It doesn't look as though they are actually offering it for sale.   The other site turns up no results for a search of casein.  They do list some ivory alternate that they are showing as having been carved into chess pieces and so on, but give no indication of what it is made of.  

              I have long used the "Alternative Ivory" from GPS that Rod mentions.   It seems to  be the stuff that most woodwind makers are using.  I really don't like it very much and have pined for something better.  It is not very durable in that it can chip badly upon impact.   That is not so much an issue with flutes and the like but I build Irish pipes which are more prone to be kept in a case where parts can hit against one another.    I try to warn customers about this and always hope that they will try to isolate chanters and drones and the like with some kind of padding so they will not bang together.  As for the issue of turnability, the GPS stuff is at about the bottom of the list.   It is no fun to work. 

              Many highland pipe makers as well as some Irish pipe makers used to use a white bakelite material that is quite strong and durable, turns well, and in time develops an amber sort of color.  Some collectors refer to it as "butterscotch bakelite"   I believe it was first used in the second or third decade of the 20th century.  I don't think it is available now and have hoarded little bits and pieces for use in repair work.  I have also seen a material, said to  be casein (made from milk I guess?) used by the Scottish pipemaker Robertson.  It ages badly and tends to turn a somewhat grey green color in areas where the  surface finish is worn.  

              Like I said, I'd be really happy to find a good substitute for the GPS product.  I will say though that it does look pretty good when finished to a high polish.   

              One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is and artificial marble countertop material.   I think it must be fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for bridge-saddles and nuts.  I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.

              Another material that is really interesting is the large seed or nut from the Ivory nut palm.   It is not to be confused with tagua nut.   Ivory nut palm nuts are around 2 to 4 inches in diameter with a hollow center.  The ones I've seen were about the size of a large apple  I trepanned a few cylinders out of a nut that I was given as a sample and turned up a few trial rings.   It is very hard and dense.  It also turns and finishes very well.  I went at one chunk with a hammer and had to hit it really hard in order to do any damage.   The color varies from a creamy off-white to an amber-brown.   I have seen a very handsome set of Highland pipes mounted with this material. Though none of the unworked nuts that I have seen would have yielded the sizes that were on those pipes, it would be no problem getting out the sizes needed for your average baroque or classical flute.  Apparently the material resists gluing so has to have some mechanical connection to hold in place such as a few annular grooves on  mating surfaces so as to form kind of  O-rings of the glue.   

              Michael Hubbert




              On May 31, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Rinaldo S. Coelho wrote:



              My Casein suppliers:

              http://www.masecraf tsupply.com/
              http://www.woodturn erscatalog. com/

              Rinaldo Coelho

              Michael Dunn wrote:
              > Casein has received great reviews for keyboard naturals.
              >
              > Michael
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 



            • rod cameron
              Michael is correct, GBS alternate ivory has less strength than real ivory or bone. If you use standard lathe tool angles and cut fast, Michael is also correct,
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 1, 2009
                Michael is correct,

                GBS alternate ivory has less strength than real ivory or bone.

                If you use standard lathe tool angles and cut fast, Michael is also correct, it will give a shattered surface on GPS.

                However, by using severely 'negative top rake' angles, the results are very good.

                I use negative rake on all my hand turning on wood and GPS imitation ivory.

                What do I mean by negative rake?  The rake angle of a turning tool is the angle of the top face over which the chip flows ( that's the face of the tool you look down at as you turn). Zero rake angle is horizontal (good for brass and cast iron). Steel, silver, copper like positive rake of maybe 15 degrees. Positive rake means the top surface of the tool slopes downhill from the cutting edge. Negative rake means the top face slopes uphill as the chip moves away from the cutting edge. If the front clearance angle is about 10 degrees from vertical, and the top negative rake is say, 20 degrees, when you look at the tool, the included angle of the cutting point is actually more than 90 degrees ... crisp, but blunt, and that seems to be against common sense. But try it?  It cuts beautifully and the tool does not get pulled into the workpiece.... and it works really well on GPS alternative ivory.

                Finally, it is best to make your fine detail ornaments such as tiny beads and "relieves " a bit bigger than you will see on the original flute, to give more strength and avoid the breakage that Michael rightly warns about.

                Michael, when am I ever going to get to see your shop?

                best

                Rod


                On May 31, 2009, at 7:53 PM, Michael Hubbert wrote:




                Rinaldo, et al,

                I looked up those two sites.   Masecraft lists Casein under materials but it is an inactive link. It doesn't look as though they are actually offering it for sale.   The other site turns up no results for a search of casein.  They do list some ivory alternate that they are showing as having been carved into chess pieces and so on, but give no indication of what it is made of.  

                I have long used the "Alternative Ivory" from GPS that Rod mentions.   It seems to  be the stuff that most woodwind makers are using.  I really don't like it very much and have pined for something better.  It is not very durable in that it can chip badly upon impact.   That is not so much an issue with flutes and the like but I build Irish pipes which are more prone to be kept in a case where parts can hit against one another.    I try to warn customers about this and always hope that they will try to isolate chanters and drones and the like with some kind of padding so they will not bang together.  As for the issue of turnability, the GPS stuff is at about the bottom of the list.   It is no fun to work. 

                Many highland pipe makers as well as some Irish pipe makers used to use a white bakelite material that is quite strong and durable, turns well, and in time develops an amber sort of color.  Some collectors refer to it as "butterscotch bakelite"   I believe it was first used in the second or third decade of the 20th century.  I don't think it is available now and have hoarded little bits and pieces for use in repair work.  I have also seen a material, said to  be casein (made from milk I guess?) used by the Scottish pipemaker Robertson.  It ages badly and tends to turn a somewhat grey green color in areas where the  surface finish is worn.  

                Like I said, I'd be really happy to find a good substitute for the GPS product.  I will say though that it does look pretty good when finished to a high polish.   

                One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is and artificial marble countertop material.   I think it must be fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for bridge-saddles and nuts.  I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.

                Another material that is really interesting is the large seed or nut from the Ivory nut palm.   It is not to be confused with tagua nut.   Ivory nut palm nuts are around 2 to 4 inches in diameter with a hollow center.  The ones I've seen were about the size of a large apple  I trepanned a few cylinders out of a nut that I was given as a sample and turned up a few trial rings.   It is very hard and dense.  It also turns and finishes very well.  I went at one chunk with a hammer and had to hit it really hard in order to do any damage.   The color varies from a creamy off-white to an amber-brown.   I have seen a very handsome set of Highland pipes mounted with this material. Though none of the unworked nuts that I have seen would have yielded the sizes that were on those pipes, it would be no problem getting out the sizes needed for your average baroque or classical flute.  Apparently the material resists gluing so has to have some mechanical connection to hold in place such as a few annular grooves on  mating surfaces so as to form kind of  O-rings of the glue.   

                Michael Hubbert




                On May 31, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Rinaldo S. Coelho wrote:



                My Casein suppliers:

                http://www.masecraf tsupply.com/
                http://www.woodturn erscatalog. com/

                Rinaldo Coelho

                Michael Dunn wrote:
                > Casein has received great reviews for keyboard naturals.
                >
                > Michael
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > 




                Roderick Cameron
                PO Box 438
                10580 Williams Street
                Mendocino, 
                CA 95460,  USA
                studio 707 937 0412
                Home 707 937 9921
                cell:    707 813 7593




              • rod cameron
                Colin, Hamish Moore and probably others use different colour woods to make handsome contrast on woodwind joints, however, the rings add no strength to the
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 1, 2009
                  Colin,

                  Hamish Moore and probably others use different colour woods to make handsome contrast on woodwind joints, however, the 'rings' add no strength to the socket. Real ivory did add strength, but being organic, and subject to change of shape with ambient condition, like wood, many a real ivory ring cracked, mostly due to neglect of joints on the part of the player. Want to save yourself big bucks?  Take care of the windings on your flute joints. I would say about 95 percent of players do not maintain their tenon windings. Why is that?

                  The ivory substitutes also add no strength to the socket, but look pretty good. Silver rings add great strength, and can be made faster than you might imagine. The maker can put a very thin, invisible metal ring underneath the the faux ivory ring, and this will add strength, minimize cracking, and weigh next to nothing if it is made from, say, aluminum alloy. The metal thin ring will be shorter than the ring length and not show to the outside world.

                  best

                  Rod

                  On Jun 1, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Colin Saint-Martin wrote:




                  Following this thread of "ivory substitutes" , I heard not long ago about the possibility of using holly-wood which when harvested in cold months yields a remarkably dense, white wood.  Have any of you makers actually tried this?  
                  Best,
                  Colin


                  De : Mary Kirkpatrick <mkirk7@earthlink. net>
                  À : earlyflute@yahoogro ups.com
                  Envoyé le : Lundi, 1 Juin 2009, 9h07mn 03s
                  Objet : Re: [earlyflute] Re: Artificial ivory -- Corian

                  I do have several years of experience with Corian for mounts on my 
                  oboes, and I can recommend it wholeheartedly. The difficulty is 
                  procuring it -- you can't order it in less than a 4x8' sheet, and 
                  it's quite expensive. But ask any company that installs kitchens if 
                  they have any offcuts in "Bone" or "Almond", the colors which most 
                  resemble ivory. Often a whole sink/counter installation comes with a 
                  backsplash which may not be used if the customer wants tile on the 
                  wall instead, so the extra piece will sit in storage gathering dust 
                  and they will be happy to sell it. Corian comes in thicknesses of 
                  1/2" (probably good for flutes) or 3/4" (now hard to find.)

                  DuPont (the manufacturer) is a bit funny about selling Corian only 
                  through trained and licensed installers. The installers may tell you 
                  that to glue it you need a special glue of the right color to bond 
                  it. But, you can double the thickness just fine by gluing with 
                  ordinary slow-setting epoxy -- if you glue adjacent surfaces (to get 
                  around any color variation) and get the surfaces so polished first 
                  that there is a vaccuum resistance to pulling them apart. The join 
                  will be invisible and you don't have to bother coloring the glue. 
                  Nitric acid can be used to darken the color a bit and get a more 
                  antique look.

                  Corian resists impact well, turns easily and polishes up well, 
                  altogether very much like ivory to work. The main reason I like it
                  is for the tonal properties -- it is heavy like ivory, and a Corian 
                  mount (especially of double thickness) on the top joint of an oboe
                  really increases the soloistic properties. You get more projection 
                  and better response especially in the high notes. It's like the 
                  effect of choosing really hard wood for the top joint, only more of
                  the same. I don't know if a flute would have a similar sensitivity 
                  to extra hardness or weight in a particular place? (just curious.)

                  Mary Kirkpatrick

                  One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is 
                  and artificial marble countertop material. I think it must be 
                  fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for 
                  bridge-saddles and nuts. I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.




                  Roderick Cameron
                  PO Box 438
                  10580 Williams Street
                  Mendocino, 
                  CA 95460,  USA
                  studio 707 937 0412
                  Home 707 937 9921
                  cell:    707 813 7593




                • Colin Saint-Martin
                  Hey Rod, Yes, the joint winding issue is very important and much neglected. Especially now that I have a few antique flutes, I really try to avoid having any
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 1, 2009
                    Hey Rod,
                    Yes, the joint winding issue is very important and much neglected. Especially now that I have a few antique flutes, I really try to avoid having any of the joints at all tight and create more "snugness" with a nice thick grease.  Something that I've come to use is a combination of carnuba wax (in its pure form) melted together with the micro-crystalline wax that you've mentioned before.  This "new" compound has a consistency a bit more like beeswax so it's not very greasy to the touch but can be applied much more easily and smoothly.  I don't claim to be a chemist of any kind so I'm hopeful that I've not created something toxic or otherwise unsafe!?  For what it's worth, I've used it now for several years with no apparent harm to player or flute.
                    Cheers,
                    Colin


                    De : rod cameron <rcameron@...>
                    À : earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                    Envoyé le : Lundi, 1 Juin 2009, 14h01mn 25s
                    Objet : Re: Re : [earlyflute] Re: Artificial ivory -- Corian

                    Colin,


                    Hamish Moore and probably others use different colour woods to make handsome contrast on woodwind joints, however, the 'rings' add no strength to the socket. Real ivory did add strength, but being organic, and subject to change of shape with ambient condition, like wood, many a real ivory ring cracked, mostly due to neglect of joints on the part of the player. Want to save yourself big bucks?  Take care of the windings on your flute joints. I would say about 95 percent of players do not maintain their tenon windings. Why is that?

                    The ivory substitutes also add no strength to the socket, but look pretty good. Silver rings add great strength, and can be made faster than you might imagine. The maker can put a very thin, invisible metal ring underneath the the faux ivory ring, and this will add strength, minimize cracking, and weigh next to nothing if it is made from, say, aluminum alloy. The metal thin ring will be shorter than the ring length and not show to the outside world.

                    best

                    Rod

                    On Jun 1, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Colin Saint-Martin wrote:




                    Following this thread of "ivory substitutes" , I heard not long ago about the possibility of using holly-wood which when harvested in cold months yields a remarkably dense, white wood.  Have any of you makers actually tried this?  
                    Best,
                    Colin


                    De : Mary Kirkpatrick <mkirk7@earthlink. net>
                    À : earlyflute@yahoogro ups.com
                    Envoyé le : Lundi, 1 Juin 2009, 9h07mn 03s
                    Objet : Re: [earlyflute] Re: Artificial ivory -- Corian

                    I do have several years of experience with Corian for mounts on my 
                    oboes, and I can recommend it wholeheartedly. The difficulty is 
                    procuring it -- you can't order it in less than a 4x8' sheet, and 
                    it's quite expensive. But ask any company that installs kitchens if 
                    they have any offcuts in "Bone" or "Almond", the colors which most 
                    resemble ivory. Often a whole sink/counter installation comes with a 
                    backsplash which may not be used if the customer wants tile on the 
                    wall instead, so the extra piece will sit in storage gathering dust 
                    and they will be happy to sell it. Corian comes in thicknesses of 
                    1/2" (probably good for flutes) or 3/4" (now hard to find.)

                    DuPont (the manufacturer) is a bit funny about selling Corian only 
                    through trained and licensed installers. The installers may tell you 
                    that to glue it you need a special glue of the right color to bond 
                    it. But, you can double the thickness just fine by gluing with 
                    ordinary slow-setting epoxy -- if you glue adjacent surfaces (to get 
                    around any color variation) and get the surfaces so polished first 
                    that there is a vaccuum resistance to pulling them apart. The join 
                    will be invisible and you don't have to bother coloring the glue. 
                    Nitric acid can be used to darken the color a bit and get a more 
                    antique look.

                    Corian resists impact well, turns easily and polishes up well, 
                    altogether very much like ivory to work. The main reason I like it
                    is for the tonal properties -- it is heavy like ivory, and a Corian 
                    mount (especially of double thickness) on the top joint of an oboe
                    really increases the soloistic properties. You get more projection 
                    and better response especially in the high notes. It's like the 
                    effect of choosing really hard wood for the top joint, only more of
                    the same. I don't know if a flute would have a similar sensitivity 
                    to extra hardness or weight in a particular place? (just curious.)

                    Mary Kirkpatrick

                    One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is 
                    and artificial marble countertop material. I think it must be 
                    fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for 
                    bridge-saddles and nuts. I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.




                    Roderick Cameron
                    PO Box 438
                    10580 Williams Street
                    Mendocino, 
                    CA 95460,  USA
                    studio 707 937 0412
                    Home 707 937 9921
                    cell:    707 813 7593





                  • rod cameron
                    You say it well, Colin .... snug, secure, but not tight ! ... Roderick Cameron rcameron@mcn.org PO Box 438 10580 Williams Street Mendocino, CA 95460, USA
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 1, 2009
                      You say it well, Colin .... snug, secure, but not tight !


                      On Jun 1, 2009, at 11:51 AM, Colin Saint-Martin wrote:




                      Hey Rod,
                      Yes, the joint winding issue is very important and much neglected. Especially now that I have a few antique flutes, I really try to avoid having any of the joints at all tight and create more "snugness" with a nice thick grease.  Something that I've come to use is a combination of carnuba wax (in its pure form) melted together with the micro-crystalline wax that you've mentioned before.  This "new" compound has a consistency a bit more like beeswax so it's not very greasy to the touch but can be applied much more easily and smoothly.  I don't claim to be a chemist of any kind so I'm hopeful that I've not created something toxic or otherwise unsafe!?  For what it's worth, I've used it now for several years with no apparent harm to player or flute.
                      Cheers,
                      Colin


                      De : rod cameron <rcameron@mcn. org>
                      À : earlyflute@yahoogro ups.com
                      Envoyé le : Lundi, 1 Juin 2009, 14h01mn 25s
                      Objet : Re: Re : [earlyflute] Re: Artificial ivory -- Corian

                      Colin,


                      Hamish Moore and probably others use different colour woods to make handsome contrast on woodwind joints, however, the 'rings' add no strength to the socket. Real ivory did add strength, but being organic, and subject to change of shape with ambient condition, like wood, many a real ivory ring cracked, mostly due to neglect of joints on the part of the player. Want to save yourself big bucks?  Take care of the windings on your flute joints. I would say about 95 percent of players do not maintain their tenon windings. Why is that?

                      The ivory substitutes also add no strength to the socket, but look pretty good. Silver rings add great strength, and can be made faster than you might imagine. The maker can put a very thin, invisible metal ring underneath the the faux ivory ring, and this will add strength, minimize cracking, and weigh next to nothing if it is made from, say, aluminum alloy. The metal thin ring will be shorter than the ring length and not show to the outside world.

                      best

                      Rod

                      On Jun 1, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Colin Saint-Martin wrote:




                      Following this thread of "ivory substitutes" , I heard not long ago about the possibility of using holly-wood which when harvested in cold months yields a remarkably dense, white wood.  Have any of you makers actually tried this?  
                      Best,
                      Colin


                      De : Mary Kirkpatrick <mkirk7@earthlink. net>
                      À : earlyflute@yahoogro ups.com
                      Envoyé le : Lundi, 1 Juin 2009, 9h07mn 03s
                      Objet : Re: [earlyflute] Re: Artificial ivory -- Corian

                      I do have several years of experience with Corian for mounts on my 
                      oboes, and I can recommend it wholeheartedly. The difficulty is 
                      procuring it -- you can't order it in less than a 4x8' sheet, and 
                      it's quite expensive. But ask any company that installs kitchens if 
                      they have any offcuts in "Bone" or "Almond", the colors which most 
                      resemble ivory. Often a whole sink/counter installation comes with a 
                      backsplash which may not be used if the customer wants tile on the 
                      wall instead, so the extra piece will sit in storage gathering dust 
                      and they will be happy to sell it. Corian comes in thicknesses of 
                      1/2" (probably good for flutes) or 3/4" (now hard to find.)

                      DuPont (the manufacturer) is a bit funny about selling Corian only 
                      through trained and licensed installers. The installers may tell you 
                      that to glue it you need a special glue of the right color to bond 
                      it. But, you can double the thickness just fine by gluing with 
                      ordinary slow-setting epoxy -- if you glue adjacent surfaces (to get 
                      around any color variation) and get the surfaces so polished first 
                      that there is a vaccuum resistance to pulling them apart. The join 
                      will be invisible and you don't have to bother coloring the glue. 
                      Nitric acid can be used to darken the color a bit and get a more 
                      antique look.

                      Corian resists impact well, turns easily and polishes up well, 
                      altogether very much like ivory to work. The main reason I like it
                      is for the tonal properties -- it is heavy like ivory, and a Corian 
                      mount (especially of double thickness) on the top joint of an oboe
                      really increases the soloistic properties. You get more projection 
                      and better response especially in the high notes. It's like the 
                      effect of choosing really hard wood for the top joint, only more of
                      the same. I don't know if a flute would have a similar sensitivity 
                      to extra hardness or weight in a particular place? (just curious.)

                      Mary Kirkpatrick

                      One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is 
                      and artificial marble countertop material. I think it must be 
                      fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for 
                      bridge-saddles and nuts. I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.




                      Roderick Cameron
                      PO Box 438
                      10580 Williams Street
                      Mendocino, 
                      CA 95460,  USA
                      studio 707 937 0412
                      Home 707 937 9921
                      cell:    707 813 7593







                      Roderick Cameron
                      PO Box 438
                      10580 Williams Street
                      Mendocino, 
                      CA 95460,  USA
                      studio 707 937 0412
                      Home 707 937 9921
                      cell:    707 813 7593




                    • manuel torres
                      Hello Terry, I don t know if this will be of use to you, but here are couple of methods of whipping up some artificial ivory. One involves the use of
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 2, 2009
                        Hello Terry,

                        I don't know if this will be of use to you, but here are couple of methods of whipping up some artificial ivory. One involves the use of pre-accelerated polyester resin and the other uses clear liquid epoxy resin and both require calcium carbonate powder. Before i outline the procedures for both let me give the pros and cons.

                        Artificial ivory based on polyester resin is cheaper than that based on epoxy resin.

                        Artificial ivory based on polyester takes longer to stabilize dimensionally than epoxy even after it has hardened.

                        Artificial ivory based on epoxy is stronger than ivory based on polyester. Having said that, i must add that the polyester base is plenty strong - it is used in the manufacture of duckpin bowling balls!

                        Both mixes need molds to pour into. Cobble up some molds - short lengths of Cpvc pipes with release wax should work quite well.



                        PROCEDURE FOR POLYESTER BASED IVORY

                        Purchase a pint or quart of pre-accelerated polyester resin and the smallest bottle of MEKP hardener from a fiberglass builders supply.

                        Purchase a couple of pounds of calcium carbonate from a construction supply store.

                        Pour needed amount of resin in a plastic cup (not stryopor) and blend in calcium carbonate tablespoon at a time with a stick.

                        Continue to add calcium until a consistency of thick but flowing cream is achieved.

                        Let stand still for a quarter of an hour for bubbles to rise.

                        Add manufacturers recommended amount of hardener (our suppliers recommend 3 - 5 % of resin volume used) and thoroughly but gently stir so as not to create to many bubbles.

                        Let the mix stand for about five minutes and then gently pour mix into mold prepped with release wax.

                        The mix will generate quite a bit of heat - be careful. Once everything has cooled down it can be knocked out from the mold.

                        Let the cast ivory age for a couple of weeks before turning at the lathe. Initial boring will help the aging process and relieve stress.


                        PROCEDURE FOR EPOXY BASED IVORY

                        Purchase clear liquid epoxy resin part A and part B. (with a curing time of at least an hour) from construction supply.

                        Pour out equal required amounts of A and B in separate cups.

                        Blend in calcium in both cups separately and with separate sticks.

                        Continue to add calcium until the consistency of thick but flowing cream is achieved.

                        Let stand for fifteen minutes to dispel bubbles.

                        Mix the contents of both cups thoroughly but gently with a stick.

                        Let stand for five minutes and gently pour mix into mold prepped with release wax.

                        Remove from mold after half a day.

                        Let the cast ivory age for three days. Boring is not necessary to aid in aging.


                        I hope this may be of use to some of you - i have used this in automotive restoration and gunstocks with very good results. Calcium is the color of bone and is not absolutely white - it mimics ivory quite well. If you wish, tints and color may be introduced into the resin with color gel but we can take that up another time if you wish.

                        Regards to all,

                        Manuel






                        --- On Sun, 31/5/09, terryjbarnett947 <trbarnett@...> wrote:

                        From: terryjbarnett947 <trbarnett@...>
                        Subject: [earlyflute] Artificial ivory
                        To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, 31 May, 2009, 12:54 AM

                        I would appreciate hearing from flute makers about what material they use as artificial ivory, and the name and location of suppliers. Thank you.

                        Terry


                      • trbarnett@nventure.com
                        Manuel, thank you! Terry ... From : manuel torres[mailto:judy_nolo@yahoo.co.uk] Sent : 6/2/2009 8:51:45 AM To : earlyflute@yahoogroups.com Cc :
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 2, 2009
                          Manuel, thank you!

                          Terry



                          ------- Original Message -------
                          From : manuel torres[mailto:judy_nolo@...]
                          Sent : 6/2/2009 8:51:45 AM
                          To : earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc :
                          Subject : RE: Re: [earlyflute] Artificial ivory














                          Hello Terry,
                          I don't know if this will be of use to you, but here
                          are couple of methods of whipping up some artificial
                          ivory. One involves the use of pre-accelerated
                          polyester resin and the other uses clear liquid epoxy
                          resin and both require calcium carbonate powder.
                          Before i outline the procedures for both let me give
                          the pros and cons.
                          Artificial ivory based on polyester resin is cheaper
                          than that based on epoxy resin.
                          Artificial ivory based on polyester takes longer to
                          stabilize dimensionally than epoxy even after it has
                          hardened.
                          Artificial ivory based on epoxy is stronger than
                          ivory based on polyester. Having said that, i must
                          add that the polyester base is plenty strong - it is
                          used in the manufacture of duckpin bowling balls!
                          Both mixes
                          need molds to pour into. Cobble up some molds -
                          short lengths of Cpvc pipes with release wax should
                          work quite well.


                          PROCEDURE FOR POLYESTER BASED IVORY
                          Purchase a pint or quart of pre-accelerated polyester
                          resin and the smallest bottle of MEKP hardener from a
                          fiberglass builders supply.
                          Purchase a couple of pounds of calcium carbonate from
                          a construction supply store.
                          Pour needed amount of resin in a plastic cup (not
                          stryopor) and blend in calcium carbonate tablespoon
                          at a time with a stick.
                          Continue to add calcium until a consistency of thick
                          but flowing cream is achieved.
                          Let stand still for a quarter of an hour for bubbles
                          to rise.
                          Add manufacturers recommended amount of hardener (our
                          suppliers recommend 3 - 5 % of resin volume used) and
                          thoroughly
                          but gently stir so as not to create to many bubbles.
                          Let the mix stand for about five minutes and then
                          gently pour mix into mold prepped with release wax.
                          The mix will generate quite a bit of heat - be
                          careful. Once everything has cooled down it can be
                          knocked out from the mold.
                          Let the cast ivory age for a couple of weeks before
                          turning at the lathe. Initial boring will help the
                          aging process and relieve stress.

                          PROCEDURE FOR EPOXY BASED IVORY
                          Purchase clear liquid epoxy resin part A and part B.
                          (with a curing time of at least an hour) from
                          construction supply.
                          Pour out equal required amounts of A and B in
                          separate cups.
                          Blend in calcium in both cups separately and with
                          separate sticks.
                          Continue to add calcium until the consistency of thick
                          but flowing cream is achieved.
                          Let stand for fifteen minutes to dispel bubbles.
                          Mix the contents of both cups thoroughly but gently
                          with a stick.
                          Let stand for five minutes and gently pour mix into
                          mold prepped with release wax.
                          Remove from mold after half a day.
                          Let the cast ivory age for three days. Boring is not
                          necessary to aid in aging.

                          I hope this may be of use to some of you - i have
                          used this in automotive restoration and gunstocks
                          with very good results. Calcium is the color of bone
                          and is not absolutely white - it mimics ivory quite
                          well. If you wish, tints and color may be introduced
                          into the resin with color gel but we can take that up
                          another time if you wish.
                          Regards to
                          all,
                          Manuel





                          --- On Sun, 31/5/09, terryjbarnett947
                          <trbarnett@...> wrote:

                          From: terryjbarnett947 <trbarnett@...>
                          Subject: [earlyflute] Artificial ivory
                          To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, 31 May, 2009, 12:54 AM

















                          I would appreciate hearing from flute makers
                          about what material they use as artificial ivory, and
                          the name and location of suppliers. Thank you.



                          Terry
                        • Philippe Allain-Dupré
                          Dear Mary Thanks for your credo on Corian. GPS is awfull to turn, and cracks so easily, that I don t understand its success since legal Ivory disparition in
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 5, 2009
                            Dear Mary
                            Thanks for your credo on Corian.
                            GPS is awfull to turn, and cracks so easily, that I don't understand its success since legal Ivory disparition in 1989.
                            Although mounts or rings (bone, Ivory, horn, etc.)  are normally intended to reinforce sockets on WW. I realise I spend a lot of my time to repair cracked rings made of GPS. Silly!
                            Best wishes
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 3:07 PM
                            Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: Artificial ivory -- Corian

                            I do have several years of experience with Corian for mounts on my
                            oboes, and I can recommend it wholeheartedly. The difficulty is
                            procuring it -- you can't order it in less than a 4x8' sheet, and
                            it's quite expensive. But ask any company that installs kitchens if
                            they have any offcuts in "Bone" or "Almond", the colors which most
                            resemble ivory. Often a whole sink/counter installation comes with a
                            backsplash which may not be used if the customer wants tile on the
                            wall instead, so the extra piece will sit in storage gathering dust
                            and they will be happy to sell it. Corian comes in thicknesses of
                            1/2" (probably good for flutes) or 3/4" (now hard to find.)

                            DuPont (the manufacturer) is a bit funny about selling Corian only
                            through trained and licensed installers. The installers may tell you
                            that to glue it you need a special glue of the right color to bond
                            it. But, you can double the thickness just fine by gluing with
                            ordinary slow-setting epoxy -- if you glue adjacent surfaces (to get
                            around any color variation) and get the surfaces so polished first
                            that there is a vaccuum resistance to pulling them apart. The join
                            will be invisible and you don't have to bother coloring the glue.
                            Nitric acid can be used to darken the color a bit and get a more
                            antique look.

                            Corian resists impact well, turns easily and polishes up well,
                            altogether very much like ivory to work. The main reason I like it
                            is for the tonal properties -- it is heavy like ivory, and a Corian
                            mount (especially of double thickness) on the top joint of an oboe
                            really increases the soloistic properties. You get more projection
                            and better response especially in the high notes. It's like the
                            effect of choosing really hard wood for the top joint, only more of
                            the same. I don't know if a flute would have a similar sensitivity
                            to extra hardness or weight in a particular place? (just curious.)

                            Mary Kirkpatrick

                            One other material that might yield good results is Corian, which is
                            and artificial marble countertop material. I think it must be
                            fairly durable as guitarmakers have long been using it for
                            bridge-saddles and nuts. I haven't tried it for WW rings, though.

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