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  • Marco Brolli
    Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I m an Italian free-lance traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please visit my website
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 2, 2005
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      Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-lance
      traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please visit my
      website www.marcobrolli.com
      I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in good and
      usefull touch.
      Greetings,

      Marco Brolli
    • bethowen@aol.com
      Welcome Marco. I enjoyed your website! Beth Owen In a message dated 10/2/2005 9:25:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, marco.brolli@tele2.it writes: Hi group, my
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 2, 2005
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        Welcome Marco.  I enjoyed your website!
        Beth Owen
         
        In a message dated 10/2/2005 9:25:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, marco.brolli@... writes:
        Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-lance
        traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please visit my
        website www.marcobrolli.com
        I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in good and
        usefull touch.
        Greetings,

        Marco Brolli

         

        SOUTHPORT STUDIOS

        Beth Owen, NCTM

        1218 Southport Dr.
        Columbus, OH   43235
          Phone:   (614) 326-1099       Mobile:  (614) 329-1099
          FAX:      (614) 442-1593            bethowen@...

        bowen@...

        Click here: Beth Owen, NCTM

        Click here: Studio One

        www.flutistonline.com/bethowen















      • musicaadrhenum
        Hello Marco, That is a very nice website, thanks for the link! I was wondering what CD the beautiful b minor Telemann concerto in your sound-bite section is
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 2, 2005
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          Hello Marco,

          That is a very nice website, thanks for the link!

          I was wondering what CD the beautiful b minor Telemann concerto in
          your sound-bite section is taken from? I tried to find it amongst
          your recordings, but it seems not to be there, unless its on
          the "Baroque Music" CD by Giardino....

          All the Best,
          Jed



          --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli" <marco.brolli@t...>
          wrote:
          > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-lance
          > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please visit
          my
          > website www.marcobrolli.com
          > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in good
          and
          > usefull touch.
          > Greetings,
          >
          > Marco Brolli
        • Philippe Allain-Dupré
          Hi Marco I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page : A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a falsetto or castrato voice. But Quantz
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Marco
            I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
            A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a falsetto or castrato voice.
            But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male voice, and his French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is HAUTE-CONTRE, a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good examples of this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François Nicolas Geslot)
             
            The difference of range between the two voices is :
            contralto, g to e'' written in C2
            Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
            Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second one, and this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with a large throat.
            So to my opinion your translations in English and Italian introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato or falsetto voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first octave  d-c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
            What do you or other think?
            Sincerely

            --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli" <marco.brolli@t...>
            wrote:
            > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-lance
            > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please visit
            my
            > website www.marcobrolli.com
            > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in good
            and
            > usefull touch.
            > Greetings,
            >
            > Marco Brolli


          • wentz047@planet.nl
            Dear Philippe, This is a brilliant point (you always have something interesting to say, you know!), I shall ponder it awhile...but are we sure that the voices
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
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              Dear Philippe,

               

              This is a brilliant point (you always have something interesting to say, you know!), I shall ponder it  awhile...but are we sure that the voices of the castrati were weak in that register? Falsettos were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular voice type, as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas a prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and flexibility.....

               

              hmmm, something to think about....

               

               

              yours,

               

              Jed

              ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----

              Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@...>

              Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am

              Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website

              > Hi Marco
              > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
              > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a falsetto or
              > castrato voice.
              > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male voice, and his
              > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is HAUTE-CONTRE,
              > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good examples of
              > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François Nicolas Geslot)
              >
              > The difference of range between the two voices is :
              > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
              > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
              > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second one, and
              > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with a large throat.
              > So to my opinion your translations in English and Italian
              > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato or falsetto
              > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first octave d-
              > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
              > What do you or other think?
              > Sincerely
              > Philippe Allain-Dupré
              > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
              > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
              > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
              > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
              >
              >
              > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
              > <marco.brolli@t...>
              > wrote:
              > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-
              > lance
              > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please
              > visit
              > my
              > > website www.marcobrolli.com
              > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in
              > good
              > and
              > > usefull touch.
              > > Greetings,
              > >
              > > Marco Brolli
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
              > -----------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
              > of Service.
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
              > -----------
              >
              >
            • Philippe Allain-Dupré
              Dear Jed Thanks for the compliment, I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am sure that Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
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                Dear Jed
                Thanks for the compliment,
                 I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am sure that Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German Evangelist, when describing the flute tone, rather than  Italian Castrati or Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                Yours
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website

                Dear Philippe,

                 

                This is a brilliant point (you always have something interesting to say, you know!), I shall ponder it  awhile...but are we sure that the voices of the castrati were weak in that register? Falsettos were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular voice type, as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas a prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and flexibility.....

                 

                hmmm, something to think about....

                 

                 

                yours,

                 

                Jed

                ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----

                Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@...>

                Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am

                Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website

                > Hi Marco
                > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
                > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a falsetto or
                > castrato voice.
                > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male voice, and his
                > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is HAUTE-CONTRE,
                > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good examples of
                > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François Nicolas Geslot)
                >
                > The difference of range between the two voices is :
                > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second one, and
                > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with a large throat.
                > So to my opinion your translations in English and Italian
                > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato or falsetto
                > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first octave d-
                > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                > What do you or other think?
                > Sincerely
                > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                >
                >
                > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                > <marco.brolli@t...>
                > wrote:
                > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-
                > lance
                > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please
                > visit
                > my
                > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in
                > good
                > and
                > > usefull touch.
                > > Greetings,
                > >
                > > Marco Brolli
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                > -----------
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                > of Service.
                >
                >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                > -----------
                >
                >
              • Marco Brolli
                Hi Jed, I m very happy you enjoy my website. Concerning b minor Telemann recording you re right: this first movement find on CD Musica Barocca by Il Giardino
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
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                  Hi Jed,

                  I'm very happy you enjoy my website.

                  Concerning b minor Telemann recording you're right: this first
                  movement find on CD "Musica Barocca" by Il Giardino Armonico.

                  You gave me a good idea: perhaps it's better if I'll write in the
                  sampler section of my site the recordings which my excerpts are taken
                  from.

                  All the best,

                  Marco


                  --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "musicaadrhenum" <wentz047@p...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hello Marco,
                  >
                  > That is a very nice website, thanks for the link!
                  >
                  > I was wondering what CD the beautiful b minor Telemann concerto in
                  > your sound-bite section is taken from? I tried to find it amongst
                  > your recordings, but it seems not to be there, unless its on
                  > the "Baroque Music" CD by Giardino....
                  >
                  > All the Best,
                  > Jed
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                  <marco.brolli@t...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-lance
                  > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please visit
                  > my
                  > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                  > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in good
                  > and
                  > > usefull touch.
                  > > Greetings,
                  > >
                  > > Marco Brolli
                • Marco Brolli
                  Hi Philippe, thanks for your underlining of the terms contralto and haute- contre , but I d like to specify that - first of all - the Italian and English
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
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                    Hi Philippe,

                    thanks for your underlining of the terms "contralto" and "haute-
                    contre", but I'd like to specify that - first of all - the Italian
                    and English translations of Quantz's quote on my website are not
                    mine. I used official translation by Luca Ripanti (Italian modern
                    Quantz edition) and by Edward R. Reilly (English modern Quantz
                    edition) you surely know. If you don't agree their translations you
                    have to complain to them directly.

                    At last, I think that the meaning of Quantz's citation appears
                    however evident: substained and powerful sound on the flute.

                    In the end, are you sure that Quantz intended really a male voice? In
                    his text he's speaking of chest 'human' voice ("die man bey dem
                    Menschen die Bruststimme nennet"): he use the term "Mensch" = "human
                    being" and not "Mann" = "man". And also more ahead in the text he
                    defines the sound of flute as "männlich", that means "masculine, man-
                    like" and not necessarely "male". In facts, at that age, femal
                    contralto voices also existed - I remember that male contraltists and
                    sopranists are common only in Italy - and the chest voice of a female
                    contralto could have the same sounding peculiarities that Quantz
                    describes.
                    Yours,
                    Marco


                    --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                    dupre@c...> wrote:
                    > Dear Jed
                    > Thanks for the compliment,
                    > I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am sure that
                    Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German Evangelist,
                    when describing the flute tone, rather than Italian Castrati or
                    Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                    > Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                    > Yours
                    > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                    > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                    > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                    > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                    > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: wentz047@p...
                    > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Philippe,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > This is a brilliant point (you always have something interesting
                    to say, you know!), I shall ponder it awhile...but are we sure that
                    the voices of the castrati were weak in that register? Falsettos
                    were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular voice type,
                    as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas a
                    prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and
                    flexibility.....
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > hmmm, something to think about....
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > yours,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Jed
                    >
                    > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                    >
                    >
                    > Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                    >
                    > Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am
                    >
                    > Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                    >
                    >
                    > > Hi Marco
                    > > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
                    > > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a falsetto
                    or
                    > > castrato voice.
                    > > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male voice, and
                    his
                    > > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is HAUTE-
                    CONTRE,
                    > > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good examples of
                    > > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François Nicolas
                    Geslot)
                    > >
                    > > The difference of range between the two voices is :
                    > > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                    > > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                    > > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second one,
                    and
                    > > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with a large
                    throat.
                    > > So to my opinion your translations in English and Italian
                    > > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato or
                    falsetto
                    > > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first octave d-
                    > > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                    > > What do you or other think?
                    > > Sincerely
                    > > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                    > > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                    > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                    > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                    > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                    > > <marco.brolli@t...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-
                    > > lance
                    > > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please
                    > > visit
                    > > my
                    > > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                    > > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in
                    > > good
                    > > and
                    > > > usefull touch.
                    > > > Greetings,
                    > > >
                    > > > Marco Brolli
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                    ---
                    > > -----------
                    > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > >
                    > > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                    > >
                    > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                    > > of Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                    ---
                    > > -----------
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    ----------
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                    >
                    > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                    of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                    ----------
                  • Ardal Powell
                    Hello Marco and All, Male contraltists and sopranists were not only an Italian phenomenon but an essential and distinctive part of the art world (in Becker s
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
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                      Hello Marco and All,

                      Male contraltists and sopranists were not only an Italian phenomenon
                      but an essential and distinctive part of the "art world" (in Becker's
                      sense, 1992) of Italian opera in all parts of Europe in Quantz's time.
                      Northern Germany was one of the main centers of this activity outside
                      Italy.

                      Quantz's experience of this world is covered in great detail by Mary
                      Oleskiewicz in her dissertation, `Quantz and the Flute at Dresden: His
                      Instruments, his Repertory[,] and their Significance for the Versuch
                      and the Bach Circle', (Ph.D. diss., Duke University, 1998). On p. 117
                      she gives a survey of voice types, and on p. 209 is a discussion of
                      the herioc male voice--and the contra-alt in particular--as the basis
                      for Quantz's ideal flute tone. The dissertation as a whole is very
                      important for anyone who wants to understand Quantz's music,
                      instruments, and aesthetics.

                      "Heroic" is an interesting word. It's the same one Gareth Morris used
                      in 1972 to characterize his ideal flute sound, as distinct from a
                      "bird-like" 19C ideal and an early-20C-French one perceived in
                      Morris's England as effete (see my _The Flute_, p. 266). I don't think
                      he got the word directly from Quantz but it seems to indicate that the
                      two felt a similar sentiment about the sounds they made, even if these
                      were not spectrographically identical.

                      HTH,
                      Ardal
                      ____________________________________________________
                      Ardal Powell
                      Folkers & Powell, Makers of Historical Flutes
                      http://www.baroqueflute.com
                    • Philippe Allain-Dupré
                      Hi Marco Of course you are not responsible of the mistakes of other translators, but you are not obliged to copy them! Again, the word used by Quantz is
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Marco
                        Of course you are not responsible of the mistakes of other translators, but you are not obliged to copy them!
                        Again, the word used by Quantz is HAUTE-CONTRE, a male voice!
                        The discussion Ardal is refering to is P128-130 of Mary Oleskiewicz dissertation, where she clearly states that the German translation of Haute-Contre by Contraalt by Quantz himself is not the standard word, and this is the origin of the lapse I guess.
                        Quantz aim for low register was a chest voice, and for the upper register a falsetto voice. (Versuch iv, §17)
                        Regards
                        Philippe
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:02 PM
                        Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website

                        Hi Philippe,

                        thanks for your underlining of the terms "contralto" and "haute-
                        contre", but I'd like to specify that - first of all - the Italian
                        and English translations of Quantz's quote on my website are not
                        mine. I used official translation by Luca Ripanti (Italian modern
                        Quantz edition) and by Edward R. Reilly (English modern Quantz
                        edition) you surely know. If you don't agree their translations you
                        have to complain to them directly.

                        At last, I think that the meaning of Quantz's citation appears
                        however evident: substained and powerful sound on the flute.

                        In the end, are you sure that Quantz intended really a male voice? In
                        his text he's speaking of chest 'human' voice ("die man bey dem
                        Menschen die Bruststimme nennet"): he use the term "Mensch" = "human
                        being" and not "Mann" = "man". And also more ahead in the text he
                        defines the sound of flute as "männlich", that means "masculine, man-
                        like" and not necessarely "male". In facts, at that age, femal
                        contralto voices also existed - I remember that male contraltists and
                        sopranists are common only in Italy - and the chest voice of a female
                        contralto could have the same sounding peculiarities that Quantz
                        describes.
                        Yours,
                        Marco


                        --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                        dupre@c...> wrote:
                        > Dear Jed
                        > Thanks for the compliment,
                        >  I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am sure that
                        Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German Evangelist,
                        when describing the flute tone, rather than  Italian Castrati or
                        Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                        > Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                        > Yours
                        > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                        > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                        > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                        > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                        > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                        >
                        >   ----- Original Message -----
                        >   From: wentz047@p...
                        >   To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                        >   Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                        >   Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >   Dear Philippe,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >   This is a brilliant point (you always have something interesting
                        to say, you know!), I shall ponder it  awhile...but are we sure that
                        the voices of the castrati were weak in that register? Falsettos
                        were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular voice type,
                        as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas a
                        prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and
                        flexibility.....
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >   hmmm, something to think about....
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >   yours,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >   Jed
                        >
                        >   ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                        >
                        >
                        >   Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                        >
                        >   Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am
                        >
                        >   Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                        >
                        >
                        >   > Hi Marco
                        >   > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
                        >   > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a falsetto
                        or
                        >   > castrato voice.
                        >   > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male voice, and
                        his
                        >   > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is HAUTE-
                        CONTRE,
                        >   > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good examples of
                        >   > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François Nicolas
                        Geslot)
                        >   >
                        >   > The difference of range between the two voices is :
                        >   > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                        >   > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                        >   > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second one,
                        and
                        >   > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with a large
                        throat.
                        >   > So to my opinion your translations in English and Italian
                        >   > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato or
                        falsetto
                        >   > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first octave d-
                        >   > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                        >   > What do you or other think?
                        >   > Sincerely
                        >   > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                        >   > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                        >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                        >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                        >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                        >   >
                        >   >
                        >   > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                        >   > <marco.brolli@t...>
                        >   > wrote:
                        >   > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-
                        >   > lance
                        >   > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me, please
                        >   > visit
                        >   > my
                        >   > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                        >   > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay in
                        >   > good
                        >   > and
                        >   > > usefull touch.
                        >   > > Greetings,
                        >   > >
                        >   > > Marco Brolli
                        >   >
                        >   >
                        >   >
                        >   >
                        >   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                        ---
                        >   > -----------
                        >   > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >   >
                        >   > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                        >   >
                        >   > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >   > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >   >
                        >   > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                        >   > of Service.
                        >   >
                        >   >
                        >   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                        ---
                        >   > -----------
                        >   >
                        >   >
                        >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        ----------
                        >   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        >     a..  Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                        >      
                        >     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >      earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >      
                        >     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                        of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        ----------


                      • fluteoftheroom@infostations.com
                        ... Anyone familiar with the singing of Jeffrey Gall? He is the only countertenor I know of who does just that - his seamless knitting of lower notes in chest
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > Again, the word used by Quantz is HAUTE-CONTRE, a male voice!
                          > Quantz aim for low register was a chest voice, and for the upper register
                          > a falsetto voice. (Versuch iv, §17)

                          Anyone familiar with the singing of Jeffrey Gall? He is the only
                          countertenor I know of who does just that - his seamless knitting of lower
                          notes in chest voice and upper falsetto knocks my socks off! I wish more
                          countertenors would do this instead of that weak and strangled sound they
                          usually use for the low notes.

                          Listen to his singing of 'Crede l'uom ch'egli riposi' or 'Più non cura'
                          and especially 'Chi giá del biondo crine' in Handel's Triumph of Time and
                          Truth and see if you don't agree.

                          I wish more flutists would play like he sings instead of that weak and
                          strangled sound they often use for low notes.

                          The recording I am speaking of is on the Centaur label, if anyone is
                          interested. I think it is uniformly excellent, by far my favorite
                          recording of a Handel oratorio.

                          Best,

                          Harry
                        • Marco Brolli
                          Hi chest voice discussion group. Now I have understood that Quantz had in mind a male voice, thanks Ardall: I ll read the dissertation by Oleskiewicz. Dear
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi chest voice discussion group.

                            Now I have understood that Quantz had in mind a male voice, thanks
                            Ardall: I'll read the dissertation by Oleskiewicz.

                            Dear Philippe,
                            I know that Quantz uses the French word haute-contre. Now, can you
                            suggest me a better word for Italian and English translation?

                            In any case this is not the matter. Quantz's 'philosophy' of sound is
                            very clear by reading more ahead in the text, also in iv, § 17.

                            Yours,
                            Marco

                            --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                            dupre@c...> wrote:
                            > Hi Marco
                            > Of course you are not responsible of the mistakes of other
                            translators, but you are not obliged to copy them!
                            > Again, the word used by Quantz is HAUTE-CONTRE, a male voice!
                            > The discussion Ardal is refering to is P128-130 of Mary Oleskiewicz
                            dissertation, where she clearly states that the German translation of
                            Haute-Contre by Contraalt by Quantz himself is not the standard word,
                            and this is the origin of the lapse I guess.
                            > Quantz aim for low register was a chest voice, and for the upper
                            register a falsetto voice. (Versuch iv, §17)
                            > Regards
                            > Philippe
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Marco Brolli
                            > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:02 PM
                            > Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Philippe,
                            >
                            > thanks for your underlining of the terms "contralto" and "haute-
                            > contre", but I'd like to specify that - first of all - the
                            Italian
                            > and English translations of Quantz's quote on my website are not
                            > mine. I used official translation by Luca Ripanti (Italian modern
                            > Quantz edition) and by Edward R. Reilly (English modern Quantz
                            > edition) you surely know. If you don't agree their translations
                            you
                            > have to complain to them directly.
                            >
                            > At last, I think that the meaning of Quantz's citation appears
                            > however evident: substained and powerful sound on the flute.
                            >
                            > In the end, are you sure that Quantz intended really a male
                            voice? In
                            > his text he's speaking of chest 'human' voice ("die man bey dem
                            > Menschen die Bruststimme nennet"): he use the term "Mensch"
                            = "human
                            > being" and not "Mann" = "man". And also more ahead in the text he
                            > defines the sound of flute as "männlich", that means "masculine,
                            man-
                            > like" and not necessarely "male". In facts, at that age, femal
                            > contralto voices also existed - I remember that male contraltists
                            and
                            > sopranists are common only in Italy - and the chest voice of a
                            female
                            > contralto could have the same sounding peculiarities that Quantz
                            > describes.
                            > Yours,
                            > Marco
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                            > dupre@c...> wrote:
                            > > Dear Jed
                            > > Thanks for the compliment,
                            > > I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am sure
                            that
                            > Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German
                            Evangelist,
                            > when describing the flute tone, rather than Italian Castrati or
                            > Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                            > > Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                            > > Yours
                            > > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                            > > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                            > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                            > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                            > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: wentz047@p...
                            > > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dear Philippe,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > This is a brilliant point (you always have something
                            interesting
                            > to say, you know!), I shall ponder it awhile...but are we sure
                            that
                            > the voices of the castrati were weak in that register? Falsettos
                            > were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular voice
                            type,
                            > as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas a
                            > prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and
                            > flexibility.....
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > hmmm, something to think about....
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > yours,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Jed
                            > >
                            > > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                            > >
                            > > Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am
                            > >
                            > > Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > Hi Marco
                            > > > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
                            > > > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a
                            falsetto
                            > or
                            > > > castrato voice.
                            > > > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male voice,
                            and
                            > his
                            > > > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is HAUTE-
                            > CONTRE,
                            > > > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good
                            examples of
                            > > > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François Nicolas
                            > Geslot)
                            > > >
                            > > > The difference of range between the two voices is :
                            > > > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                            > > > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                            > > > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second
                            one,
                            > and
                            > > > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with a
                            large
                            > throat.
                            > > > So to my opinion your translations in English and Italian
                            > > > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato or
                            > falsetto
                            > > > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first
                            octave d-
                            > > > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                            > > > What do you or other think?
                            > > > Sincerely
                            > > > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                            > > > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                            > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                            > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                            > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                            > > > <marco.brolli@t...>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-

                            > > > lance
                            > > > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me,
                            please
                            > > > visit
                            > > > my
                            > > > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                            > > > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay
                            in
                            > > > good
                            > > > and
                            > > > > usefull touch.
                            > > > > Greetings,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Marco Brolli
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----
                            > ---
                            > > > -----------
                            > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            > > >
                            > > > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                            > > >
                            > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >
                            > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                            Terms
                            > > > of Service.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----
                            > ---
                            > > > -----------
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----
                            > ----------
                            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            > >
                            > > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                            > >
                            > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                            Terms
                            > of Service.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----
                            > ----------
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > SPONSORED LINKS Music instruments Instruments Instrument music
                            online store
                            > Online music instrument store Music instrument stores
                            Music instrument sale
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----------
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                            >
                            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                            of Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ----------
                          • Terry McGee
                            Hi Ardal ... I wouldn t naturally think of the 19th century flute-sound ideal as bird-like (might depend on which particular bird one has in mind!). Morris
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Ardal

                              At 12:47 AM 4/10/2005, you wrote:

                              "Heroic" is an interesting word. It's the same one Gareth Morris used
                              in 1972 to characterize his ideal flute sound, as distinct from a
                              "bird-like" 19C ideal and an early-20C-French one perceived in
                              Morris's England as effete (see my _The Flute_, p. 266).

                              I wouldn't naturally think of the 19th century flute-sound ideal as "bird-like" (might depend on which particular bird one has in mind!).  Morris didn't actually say "19th century" - are there other sources that come to mind that might have?

                              Terry

                                                Terry McGee

                                       61 Calder Crescent, Holder ACT 2611 Australia
                                        Phone +61 (0)2 6288 8006, Fax +61 (0)2 6287 4263
                                       Skype name: mcgee-flutes         
                                       mailto: terry@...                   
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                            • Philippe Allain-Dupré
                              Dear Marco Sorry if I was too picky with you. This discussion was very interesting for me, since I knew only the French word of Quantz to describe the flute
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 3, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Marco
                                Sorry if I was too "picky" with you.
                                This discussion was very interesting for me, since I knew only the French word of Quantz to describe the flute tone,
                                and I was very astonished of the English and Italian translations of this word.
                                It seems that Quantz himself had no equivalent in German, and nor has the Grove to translate Haute-Contre, a very French voice.
                                So keep your contralto on your webpage, bearing in mind that the Quantz meaning  is not the same than now, but a third or fourth below :  Quantz had certainly in mind the French Haute-Contre roles of Lully or Rameau opéras when he wrote this.
                                Sincerely yours
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:47 PM
                                Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website

                                Hi chest voice discussion group.

                                Now I have understood that Quantz had in mind a male voice, thanks
                                Ardall: I'll read the dissertation by Oleskiewicz.

                                Dear Philippe,
                                I know that Quantz uses the French word haute-contre. Now, can you
                                suggest me a better word for Italian and English translation?

                                In any case this is not the matter. Quantz's 'philosophy' of sound is
                                very clear by reading more ahead in the text, also in iv, § 17.

                                Yours,
                                Marco

                                --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                                dupre@c...> wrote:
                                > Hi Marco
                                > Of course you are not responsible of the mistakes of other
                                translators, but you are not obliged to copy them!
                                > Again, the word used by Quantz is HAUTE-CONTRE, a male voice!
                                > The discussion Ardal is refering to is P128-130 of Mary Oleskiewicz
                                dissertation, where she clearly states that the German translation of
                                Haute-Contre by Contraalt by Quantz himself is not the standard word,
                                and this is the origin of the lapse I guess.
                                > Quantz aim for low register was a chest voice, and for the upper
                                register a falsetto voice. (Versuch iv, §17)
                                > Regards
                                > Philippe
                                >   ----- Original Message -----
                                >   From: Marco Brolli
                                >   To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                >   Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:02 PM
                                >   Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                >
                                >
                                >   Hi Philippe,
                                >
                                >   thanks for your underlining of the terms "contralto" and "haute-
                                >   contre", but I'd like to specify that - first of all - the
                                Italian
                                >   and English translations of Quantz's quote on my website are not
                                >   mine. I used official translation by Luca Ripanti (Italian modern
                                >   Quantz edition) and by Edward R. Reilly (English modern Quantz
                                >   edition) you surely know. If you don't agree their translations
                                you
                                >   have to complain to them directly.
                                >
                                >   At last, I think that the meaning of Quantz's citation appears
                                >   however evident: substained and powerful sound on the flute.
                                >
                                >   In the end, are you sure that Quantz intended really a male
                                voice? In
                                >   his text he's speaking of chest 'human' voice ("die man bey dem
                                >   Menschen die Bruststimme nennet"): he use the term "Mensch"
                                = "human
                                >   being" and not "Mann" = "man". And also more ahead in the text he
                                >   defines the sound of flute as "männlich", that means "masculine,
                                man-
                                >   like" and not necessarely "male". In facts, at that age, femal
                                >   contralto voices also existed - I remember that male contraltists
                                and
                                >   sopranists are common only in Italy - and the chest voice of a
                                female
                                >   contralto could have the same sounding peculiarities that Quantz
                                >   describes.
                                >   Yours,
                                >   Marco
                                >
                                >
                                >   --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                                >   dupre@c...> wrote:
                                >   > Dear Jed
                                >   > Thanks for the compliment,
                                >   >  I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am sure
                                that
                                >   Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German
                                Evangelist,
                                >   when describing the flute tone, rather than  Italian Castrati or
                                >   Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                                >   > Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                                >   > Yours
                                >   > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                >   > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                >   >
                                >   >   ----- Original Message -----
                                >   >   From: wentz047@p...
                                >   >   To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                >   >   Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                                >   >   Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >   Dear Philippe,
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >   This is a brilliant point (you always have something
                                interesting
                                >   to say, you know!), I shall ponder it  awhile...but are we sure
                                that
                                >   the voices of the castrati were weak in that register? Falsettos
                                >   were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular voice
                                type,
                                >   as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas a
                                >   prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and
                                >   flexibility.....
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >   hmmm, something to think about....
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >   yours,
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >   Jed
                                >   >
                                >   >   ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >   Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                                >   >
                                >   >   Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am
                                >   >
                                >   >   Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                >   >
                                >   >
                                >   >   > Hi Marco
                                >   >   > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
                                >   >   > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a
                                falsetto
                                >   or
                                >   >   > castrato voice.
                                >   >   > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male voice,
                                and
                                >   his
                                >   >   > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is HAUTE-
                                >   CONTRE,
                                >   >   > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good
                                examples of
                                >   >   > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François Nicolas
                                >   Geslot)
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   > The difference of range between the two voices is :
                                >   >   > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                                >   >   > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                                >   >   > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second
                                one,
                                >   and
                                >   >   > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with a
                                large
                                >   throat.
                                >   >   > So to my opinion your translations in English and Italian
                                >   >   > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato or
                                >   falsetto
                                >   >   > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first
                                octave d-
                                >   >   > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                                >   >   > What do you or other think?
                                >   >   > Sincerely
                                >   >   > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                >   >   > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                                >   >   > <marco.brolli@t...>
                                >   >   > wrote:
                                >   >   > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-

                                >   >   > lance
                                >   >   > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me,
                                please
                                >   >   > visit
                                >   >   > my
                                >   >   > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                                >   >   > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay
                                in
                                >   >   > good
                                >   >   > and
                                >   >   > > usefull touch.
                                >   >   > > Greetings,
                                >   >   > >
                                >   >   > > Marco Brolli
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   > ------------------------------------------------------------
                                ----
                                >   ---
                                >   >   > -----------
                                >   >   > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                                >   >   >
                                >   >   > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                              • musicaadrhenum
                                I have been following this thread with great interest...what a change in ideas about flute sound since I was studying traverso in the 1980 s (gulp!! so long
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I have been following this thread with great interest...what a change
                                  in ideas about flute sound since I was studying traverso in the
                                  1980's (gulp!! so long ago!!)...in 1985, when I was finishing my
                                  studies in the Hague,I remember asking Bart about this passage in
                                  Quantz, because I was amazed to find the good Herr advocating a sound
                                  ideal so very different from what was being taught at the time.
                                  Bart's reply was the "Quantz was German" and that French players
                                  would have played more softly (there was also a subtle implication in
                                  this all that the French had better taste than the Germans, something
                                  which I doubt Bart still feels, I mean it was 20 years ago!). Well, I
                                  set out to see if I could find any evidence of this and I actually
                                  couldn't ...maybe Philippe knows something about this? I don't think
                                  Quantz uses soft French sounds in his argumentation with von
                                  moldonit, for instance...

                                  Anyway, I think people can play softly or loudly or heroically or
                                  birdily depending on their temperament, the repertoire and the size
                                  of the hall...but I find it interesting that traverso players are
                                  more open to a 'masculine' sound ideal than they were 20 years ago...


                                  greetings,

                                  Jed


                                  lyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Dear Marco
                                  > Sorry if I was too "picky" with you.
                                  > This discussion was very interesting for me, since I knew only the
                                  French word of Quantz to describe the flute tone,
                                  > and I was very astonished of the English and Italian translations
                                  of this word.
                                  > It seems that Quantz himself had no equivalent in German, and nor
                                  has the Grove to translate Haute-Contre, a very French voice.
                                  > So keep your contralto on your webpage, bearing in mind that the
                                  Quantz meaning is not the same than now, but a third or fourth
                                  below : Quantz had certainly in mind the French Haute-Contre roles
                                  of Lully or Rameau opéras when he wrote this.
                                  > Sincerely yours
                                  > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                  > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                  > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                  > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                  > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Marco Brolli
                                  > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:47 PM
                                  > Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi chest voice discussion group.
                                  >
                                  > Now I have understood that Quantz had in mind a male voice,
                                  thanks
                                  > Ardall: I'll read the dissertation by Oleskiewicz.
                                  >
                                  > Dear Philippe,
                                  > I know that Quantz uses the French word haute-contre. Now, can
                                  you
                                  > suggest me a better word for Italian and English translation?
                                  >
                                  > In any case this is not the matter. Quantz's 'philosophy' of
                                  sound is
                                  > very clear by reading more ahead in the text, also in iv, § 17.
                                  >
                                  > Yours,
                                  > Marco
                                  >
                                  > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                                  > dupre@c...> wrote:
                                  > > Hi Marco
                                  > > Of course you are not responsible of the mistakes of other
                                  > translators, but you are not obliged to copy them!
                                  > > Again, the word used by Quantz is HAUTE-CONTRE, a male voice!
                                  > > The discussion Ardal is refering to is P128-130 of Mary
                                  Oleskiewicz
                                  > dissertation, where she clearly states that the German
                                  translation of
                                  > Haute-Contre by Contraalt by Quantz himself is not the standard
                                  word,
                                  > and this is the origin of the lapse I guess.
                                  > > Quantz aim for low register was a chest voice, and for the
                                  upper
                                  > register a falsetto voice. (Versuch iv, §17)
                                  > > Regards
                                  > > Philippe
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Marco Brolli
                                  > > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:02 PM
                                  > > Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Philippe,
                                  > >
                                  > > thanks for your underlining of the terms "contralto"
                                  and "haute-
                                  > > contre", but I'd like to specify that - first of all - the
                                  > Italian
                                  > > and English translations of Quantz's quote on my website are
                                  not
                                  > > mine. I used official translation by Luca Ripanti (Italian
                                  modern
                                  > > Quantz edition) and by Edward R. Reilly (English modern
                                  Quantz
                                  > > edition) you surely know. If you don't agree their
                                  translations
                                  > you
                                  > > have to complain to them directly.
                                  > >
                                  > > At last, I think that the meaning of Quantz's citation
                                  appears
                                  > > however evident: substained and powerful sound on the flute.
                                  > >
                                  > > In the end, are you sure that Quantz intended really a male
                                  > voice? In
                                  > > his text he's speaking of chest 'human' voice ("die man bey
                                  dem
                                  > > Menschen die Bruststimme nennet"): he use the term "Mensch"
                                  > = "human
                                  > > being" and not "Mann" = "man". And also more ahead in the
                                  text he
                                  > > defines the sound of flute as "männlich", that
                                  means "masculine,
                                  > man-
                                  > > like" and not necessarely "male". In facts, at that age,
                                  femal
                                  > > contralto voices also existed - I remember that male
                                  contraltists
                                  > and
                                  > > sopranists are common only in Italy - and the chest voice of
                                  a
                                  > female
                                  > > contralto could have the same sounding peculiarities that
                                  Quantz
                                  > > describes.
                                  > > Yours,
                                  > > Marco
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                  <allain-
                                  > > dupre@c...> wrote:
                                  > > > Dear Jed
                                  > > > Thanks for the compliment,
                                  > > > I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am
                                  sure
                                  > that
                                  > > Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German
                                  > Evangelist,
                                  > > when describing the flute tone, rather than Italian Castrati
                                  or
                                  > > Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                                  > > > Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                                  > > > Yours
                                  > > > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                  > > > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                  > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                  > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                  > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: wentz047@p...
                                  > > > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Dear Philippe,
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > This is a brilliant point (you always have something
                                  > interesting
                                  > > to say, you know!), I shall ponder it awhile...but are we
                                  sure
                                  > that
                                  > > the voices of the castrati were weak in that register?
                                  Falsettos
                                  > > were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular
                                  voice
                                  > type,
                                  > > as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas
                                  a
                                  > > prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and
                                  > > flexibility.....
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > hmmm, something to think about....
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > yours,
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Jed
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > Hi Marco
                                  > > > > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
                                  > > > > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a
                                  > falsetto
                                  > > or
                                  > > > > castrato voice.
                                  > > > > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male
                                  voice,
                                  > and
                                  > > his
                                  > > > > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is
                                  HAUTE-
                                  > > CONTRE,
                                  > > > > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good
                                  > examples of
                                  > > > > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François
                                  Nicolas
                                  > > Geslot)
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The difference of range between the two voices is :
                                  > > > > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                                  > > > > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                                  > > > > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second
                                  > one,
                                  > > and
                                  > > > > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with
                                  a
                                  > large
                                  > > throat.
                                  > > > > So to my opinion your translations in English and
                                  Italian
                                  > > > > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato
                                  or
                                  > > falsetto
                                  > > > > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first
                                  > octave d-
                                  > > > > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                                  > > > > What do you or other think?
                                  > > > > Sincerely
                                  > > > > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                  > > > > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                  > > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                  > > > > http://perso.club-
                                  internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                  > > > > http://perso.club-
                                  internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                                  > > > > <marco.brolli@t...>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian
                                  free-
                                  >
                                  > > > > lance
                                  > > > > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me,
                                  > please
                                  > > > > visit
                                  > > > > my
                                  > > > > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                                  > > > > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll
                                  stay
                                  > in
                                  > > > > good
                                  > > > > and
                                  > > > > > usefull touch.
                                  > > > > > Greetings,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Marco Brolli
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > ----
                                  > > ---
                                  > > > > -----------
                                  > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  > Terms
                                  > > > > of Service.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > ----
                                  > > ---
                                  > > > > -----------
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > ----
                                  > > ----------
                                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > >
                                  > > > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >
                                  > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  > Terms
                                  > > of Service.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > ----
                                  > > ----------
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > SPONSORED LINKS Music instruments Instruments Instrument
                                  music
                                  > online store
                                  > > Online music instrument store Music instrument stores
                                  > Music instrument sale
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > ----------
                                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > >
                                  > > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                                  > >
                                  > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  Terms
                                  > of Service.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > ----------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > SPONSORED LINKS Music instruments Instruments Instrument music
                                  online store
                                  > Online music instrument store Music instrument stores
                                  Music instrument sale
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----------
                                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  >
                                  > a.. Visit your group "earlyflute" on the web.
                                  >
                                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----------
                                • Javier Gelati
                                  Hi all, Voice discussion group! In spanish, the word is contratenor Yours, Javier Gelati Marco Brolli escribió: Hi chest voice
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 4, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi all, Voice discussion group!
                                     
                                    In spanish, the word is "contratenor"
                                     
                                    Yours,
                                     
                                    Javier Gelati
                                     


                                    Marco Brolli <marco.brolli@...> escribió:
                                    Hi chest voice discussion group.

                                    Now I have understood that Quantz had in mind a male voice, thanks
                                    Ardall: I'll read the dissertation by Oleskiewicz.

                                    Dear Philippe,
                                    I know that Quantz uses the French word haute-contre. Now, can you
                                    suggest me a better word for Italian and English translation?

                                    In any case this is not the matter. Quantz's 'philosophy' of sound is
                                    very clear by reading more ahead in the text, also in iv, § 17.

                                    Yours,
                                    Marco

                                    --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                                    dupre@c...> wrote:
                                    > Hi Marco
                                    > Of course you are not responsible of the mistakes of other
                                    translators, but you are not obliged to copy them!
                                    > Again, the word used by Quantz is HAUTE-CONTRE, a male voice!
                                    > The discussion Ardal is refering to is P128-130 of Mary Oleskiewicz
                                    dissertation, where she clearly states that the German translation of
                                    Haute-Contre by Contraalt by Quantz himself is not the standard word,
                                    and this is the origin of the lapse I guess.
                                    > Quantz aim for low register was a chest voice, and for the upper
                                    register a falsetto voice. (Versuch iv, §17)
                                    > Regards
                                    > Philippe
                                    >   ----- Original Message -----
                                    >   From: Marco Brolli
                                    >   To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                    >   Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:02 PM
                                    >   Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >   Hi Philippe,
                                    >
                                    >   thanks for your underlining of the terms "contralto" and "haute-
                                    >   contre", but I'd like to specify that - first of all - the
                                    Italian
                                    >   and English translations of Quantz's quote on my website are not
                                    >   mine. I used official translation by Luca Ripanti (Italian modern
                                    >   Quantz edition) and by Edward R. Reilly (English modern Quantz
                                    >   edition) you surely know. If you don't agree their translations
                                    you
                                    >   have to complain to them directly.
                                    >
                                    >   At last, I think that the meaning of Quantz's citation appears
                                    >   however evident: substained and powerful sound on the flute.
                                    >
                                    >   In the end, are you sure that Quantz intended really a male
                                    voice? In
                                    >   his text he's speaking of chest 'human' voice ("die man bey dem
                                    >   Menschen die Bruststimme nennet"): he use the term "Mensch"
                                    = "human
                                    >   being" and not "Mann" = "man". And also more ahead in the text he
                                    >   defines the sound of flute as "männlich", that means "masculine,
                                    man-
                                    >   like" and not necessarely "male". In facts, at that age, femal
                                    >   contralto voices also existed - I remember that male contraltists
                                    and
                                    >   sopranists are common only in Italy - and the chest voice of a
                                    female
                                    >   contralto could have the same sounding peculiarities that Quantz
                                    >   describes.
                                    >   Yours,
                                    >   Marco
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >   --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                                    >   dupre@c...> wrote:
                                    >   > Dear Jed
                                    >   > Thanks for the compliment,
                                    >   >  I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am sure
                                    that
                                    >   Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German
                                    Evangelist,
                                    >   when describing the flute tone, rather than  Italian Castrati or
                                    >   Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                                    >   > Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                                    >   > Yours
                                    >   > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                    >   > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                    >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                    >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                    >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   ----- Original Message -----
                                    >   >   From: wentz047@p...
                                    >   >   To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                    >   >   Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                                    >   >   Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   Dear Philippe,
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   This is a brilliant point (you always have something
                                    interesting
                                    >   to say, you know!), I shall ponder it  awhile...but are we sure
                                    that
                                    >   the voices of the castrati were weak in that register? Falsettos
                                    >   were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular voice
                                    type,
                                    >   as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas a
                                    >   prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and
                                    >   flexibility.....
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   hmmm, something to think about....
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   yours,
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   Jed
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                    >   >
                                    >   >
                                    >   >   > Hi Marco
                                    >   >   > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
                                    >   >   > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a
                                    falsetto
                                    >   or
                                    >   >   > castrato voice.
                                    >   >   > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male voice,
                                    and
                                    >   his
                                    >   >   > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is HAUTE-
                                    >   CONTRE,
                                    >   >   > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good
                                    examples of
                                    >   >   > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François Nicolas
                                    >   Geslot)
                                    >   >   >
                                    >   >   > The difference of range between the two voices is :
                                    >   >   > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                                    >   >   > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                                    >   >   > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second
                                    one,
                                    >   and
                                    >   >   > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with a
                                    large
                                    >   throat.
                                    >   >   > So to my opinion your translations in English and Italian
                                    >   >   > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato or
                                    >   falsetto
                                    >   >   > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first
                                    octave d-
                                    >   >   > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                                    >   >   > What do you or other think?
                                    >   >   > Sincerely
                                    >   >   > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                    >   >   > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                    >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                    >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                    >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                    >   >   >
                                    >   >   >
                                    >   >   > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                                    >   >   > <marco.brolli@t...>
                                    >   >   > wrote:
                                    >   >   > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian free-

                                    >   >   > lance
                                    >   >   > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me,
                                    please
                                    >   >   > visit
                                    >   >   > my
                                    >   >   > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                                    >   >   > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll stay
                                    in
                                    >   >   > good
                                    >   >   > and
                                    >   >   > > usefull touch.
                                    >   >   > > Greetings,
                                    >   >   > >
                                    >   >   > > Marco Brolli
                                    >   >   >
                                    >   >   >
                                    >   >   >
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                                    >   >   > earlyflute-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                    >   of Service.
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                                    Javier Gelati

                                     
                                     


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                                  • Kim Pineda
                                    I love it when the discussion gets intense here. In my formative years of traverso playing it was suggested that I develop the ability to play very loud (for
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 4, 2005
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                                      I love it when the discussion gets intense here.

                                      In my formative years of traverso playing it was suggested that I
                                      develop the ability to play very loud (for orchestral playing) and
                                      very soft with focus (for delicate chamber music moments). And with
                                      different tone colors, outside of those already built in to the
                                      traverso.

                                      A soft sound with focus is very different from a "wimpy" sound (wimpy
                                      is an American colloquialism indicating weakness). I have no
                                      tolerance for wimpy traverso playing. The last thing I want anyone to
                                      say is that they couldn't hear the flute. Loud and ugly isn't
                                      particularly nice either.

                                      I've come up with a general rule for baroque orchestral flute
                                      playing:

                                      Play as loud as you can all the time until the conductor tells you
                                      not to. Some of my string playing colleauges may not appreciate it
                                      but they aren't the ones sitting in front of any brass or timpani
                                      players.

                                      This manner of playing in an orchestra is a good indication of
                                      whether or not the conductor is listening to the orchestra, or if
                                      they have a concept of what the group should sound like as a whole.

                                      Being told to back off happens more often than not these days, which
                                      is, probably, a good thing, because it seems to imply that the
                                      conductors are more aware of the sound of baroque instruments in an
                                      orchestra.

                                      As the flute player goes around playing with different groups s/he
                                      learns when to be tasteful and respectful or to let it all out all
                                      the time (e.g., the conductor thought it would be fun to direct a
                                      baroque orchestra).

                                      Developing a variety of sounds, as Jed points out below, can only be
                                      a good thing.

                                      Compare the variety of sounds to fine wine or ale: do you only drink
                                      one type of French wine and only one type of Belgian beer?

                                      Kim Pineda
                                      Seattle

                                      --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "musicaadrhenum" <wentz047@p...>
                                      wrote:
                                      [snip]
                                      >
                                      > Anyway, I think people can play softly or loudly or heroically or
                                      > birdily depending on their temperament, the repertoire and the size
                                      > of the hall...but I find it interesting that traverso players are
                                      > more open to a 'masculine' sound ideal than they were 20 years
                                      ago...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > greetings,
                                      >
                                      > Jed
                                    • bethowen@aol.com
                                      Marco ..................... Semantic flaws, notwithstanding, I still rather enjoyed your website ....... as well as your own concept of traverso sound.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 4, 2005
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                                        Marco .....................
                                        Semantic flaws, notwithstanding, I still rather enjoyed your website ....... as well as your own concept of traverso sound.  Welcome to the earlyflute list!
                                        Beth
                                         

                                        SOUTHPORT STUDIOS

                                        Beth Owen, NCTM

                                        1218 Southport Dr.
                                        Columbus, OH   43235
                                          Phone:   (614) 326-1099       Mobile:  (614) 329-1099
                                          FAX:      (614) 442-1593            bethowen@...

                                        bowen@...

                                        Click here: Beth Owen, NCTM

                                        Click here: Studio One

                                        www.flutistonline.com/bethowen















                                      • Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                        Hi Jed: A French website for a French exception:
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                          Hi Jed:
                                          A French website for a French exception:
                                          Regards
                                          Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                          Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:34 AM
                                          Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website

                                          I have been following this thread with great interest...what a change
                                          in ideas about flute sound since I was studying traverso in the
                                          1980's (gulp!! so long ago!!)...in 1985, when I was finishing my
                                          studies in the Hague,I remember asking Bart about this passage in
                                          Quantz, because I was amazed to find the good Herr advocating a sound
                                          ideal so very different from what was being taught at the time.
                                          Bart's reply was the "Quantz was German" and that French players
                                          would have played more softly (there was also a subtle implication in
                                          this all that the French had better taste than the Germans, something
                                          which I doubt Bart still feels, I mean it was 20 years ago!). Well, I
                                          set out to see if I could find any evidence of this and I actually
                                          couldn't ...maybe Philippe knows something about this? I don't think
                                          Quantz uses soft French sounds in his argumentation with von
                                          moldonit, for instance...

                                          Anyway, I think people can play softly or loudly or heroically or
                                          birdily depending on their temperament, the repertoire and the size
                                          of the hall...but I find it interesting that traverso players are
                                          more open to a 'masculine' sound ideal than they were 20 years ago...


                                          greetings,

                                          Jed


                                          lyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > Dear Marco
                                          > Sorry if I was too "picky" with you.
                                          > This discussion was very interesting for me, since I knew only the
                                          French word of Quantz to describe the flute tone,
                                          > and I was very astonished of the English and Italian translations
                                          of this word.
                                          > It seems that Quantz himself had no equivalent in German, and nor
                                          has the Grove to translate Haute-Contre, a very French voice.
                                          > So keep your contralto on your webpage, bearing in mind that the
                                          Quantz meaning  is not the same than now, but a third or fourth
                                          below :  Quantz had certainly in mind the French Haute-Contre roles
                                          of Lully or Rameau opéras when he wrote this.
                                          > Sincerely yours
                                          > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                          > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                          > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                          > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                          > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                          >
                                          >   ----- Original Message -----
                                          >   From: Marco Brolli
                                          >   To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                          >   Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:47 PM
                                          >   Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >   Hi chest voice discussion group.
                                          >
                                          >   Now I have understood that Quantz had in mind a male voice,
                                          thanks
                                          >   Ardall: I'll read the dissertation by Oleskiewicz.
                                          >
                                          >   Dear Philippe,
                                          >   I know that Quantz uses the French word haute-contre. Now, can
                                          you
                                          >   suggest me a better word for Italian and English translation?
                                          >
                                          >   In any case this is not the matter. Quantz's 'philosophy' of
                                          sound is
                                          >   very clear by reading more ahead in the text, also in iv, § 17.
                                          >
                                          >   Yours,
                                          >   Marco
                                          >
                                          >   --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                                          >   dupre@c...> wrote:
                                          >   > Hi Marco
                                          >   > Of course you are not responsible of the mistakes of other
                                          >   translators, but you are not obliged to copy them!
                                          >   > Again, the word used by Quantz is HAUTE-CONTRE, a male voice!
                                          >   > The discussion Ardal is refering to is P128-130 of Mary
                                          Oleskiewicz
                                          >   dissertation, where she clearly states that the German
                                          translation of
                                          >   Haute-Contre by Contraalt by Quantz himself is not the standard
                                          word,
                                          >   and this is the origin of the lapse I guess.
                                          >   > Quantz aim for low register was a chest voice, and for the
                                          upper
                                          >   register a falsetto voice. (Versuch iv, §17)
                                          >   > Regards
                                          >   > Philippe
                                          >   >   ----- Original Message -----
                                          >   >   From: Marco Brolli
                                          >   >   To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                          >   >   Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:02 PM
                                          >   >   Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                          >   >
                                          >   >
                                          >   >   Hi Philippe,
                                          >   >
                                          >   >   thanks for your underlining of the terms "contralto"
                                          and "haute-
                                          >   >   contre", but I'd like to specify that - first of all - the
                                          >   Italian
                                          >   >   and English translations of Quantz's quote on my website are
                                          not
                                          >   >   mine. I used official translation by Luca Ripanti (Italian
                                          modern
                                          >   >   Quantz edition) and by Edward R. Reilly (English modern
                                          Quantz
                                          >   >   edition) you surely know. If you don't agree their
                                          translations
                                          >   you
                                          >   >   have to complain to them directly.
                                          >   >
                                          >   >   At last, I think that the meaning of Quantz's citation
                                          appears
                                          >   >   however evident: substained and powerful sound on the flute.
                                          >   >
                                          >   >   In the end, are you sure that Quantz intended really a male
                                          >   voice? In
                                          >   >   his text he's speaking of chest 'human' voice ("die man bey
                                          dem
                                          >   >   Menschen die Bruststimme nennet"): he use the term "Mensch"
                                          >   = "human
                                          >   >   being" and not "Mann" = "man". And also more ahead in the
                                          text he
                                          >   >   defines the sound of flute as "männlich", that
                                          means "masculine,
                                          >   man-
                                          >   >   like" and not necessarely "male". In facts, at that age,
                                          femal
                                          >   >   contralto voices also existed - I remember that male
                                          contraltists
                                          >   and
                                          >   >   sopranists are common only in Italy - and the chest voice of
                                          a
                                          >   female
                                          >   >   contralto could have the same sounding peculiarities that
                                          Quantz
                                          >   >   describes.
                                          >   >   Yours,
                                          >   >   Marco
                                          >   >
                                          >   >
                                          >   >   --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                          <allain-
                                          >   >   dupre@c...> wrote:
                                          >   >   > Dear Jed
                                          >   >   > Thanks for the compliment,
                                          >   >   >  I simply try to share my French point of view, and I am
                                          sure
                                          >   that
                                          >   >   Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German
                                          >   Evangelist,
                                          >   >   when describing the flute tone, rather than  Italian Castrati
                                          or
                                          >   >   Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                                          >   >   > Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                                          >   >   > Yours
                                          >   >   > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                          >   >   > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                          >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                          >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                          >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   ----- Original Message -----
                                          >   >   >   From: wentz047@p...
                                          >   >   >   To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                          >   >   >   Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                                          >   >   >   Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   Dear Philippe,
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   This is a brilliant point (you always have something
                                          >   interesting
                                          >   >   to say, you know!), I shall ponder it  awhile...but are we
                                          sure
                                          >   that
                                          >   >   the voices of the castrati were weak in that register?
                                          Falsettos
                                          >   >   were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular
                                          voice
                                          >   type,
                                          >   >   as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I thought...perhpas
                                          a
                                          >   >   prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness (volume) and
                                          >   >   flexibility.....
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   hmmm, something to think about....
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   yours,
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   Jed
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   > Hi Marco
                                          >   >   >   > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web page :
                                          >   >   >   > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early Music a
                                          >   falsetto
                                          >   >   or
                                          >   >   >   > castrato voice.
                                          >   >   >   > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male
                                          voice,
                                          >   and
                                          >   >   his
                                          >   >   >   > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam) is
                                          HAUTE-
                                          >   >   CONTRE,
                                          >   >   >   > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice (Good
                                          >   examples of
                                          >   >   >   > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François
                                          Nicolas
                                          >   >   Geslot)
                                          >   >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   > The difference of range between the two voices is :
                                          >   >   >   > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                                          >   >   >   > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                                          >   >   >   > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the second
                                          >   one,
                                          >   >   and
                                          >   >   >   > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute with
                                          a
                                          >   large
                                          >   >   throat.
                                          >   >   >   > So to my opinion your translations in English and
                                          Italian
                                          >   >   >   > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a castrato
                                          or
                                          >   >   falsetto
                                          >   >   >   > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the first
                                          >   octave d-
                                          >   >   >   > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                                          >   >   >   > What do you or other think?
                                          >   >   >   > Sincerely
                                          >   >   >   > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                          >   >   >   > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                          >   >   >   > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                          >   >   >   > http://perso.club-
                                          internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                          >   >   >   > http://perso.club-
                                          internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                          >   >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                                          >   >   >   > <marco.brolli@t....>
                                          >   >   >   > wrote:
                                          >   >   >   > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an Italian
                                          free-
                                          >
                                          >   >   >   > lance
                                          >   >   >   > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about me,
                                          >   please
                                          >   >   >   > visit
                                          >   >   >   > my
                                          >   >   >   > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                                          >   >   >   > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope we'll
                                          stay
                                          >   in
                                          >   >   >   > good
                                          >   >   >   > and
                                          >   >   >   > > usefull touch.
                                          >   >   >   > > Greetings,
                                          >   >   >   > >
                                          >   >   >   > > Marco Brolli
                                          >   >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   >
                                          >   >   >   >
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                                          ----
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                                        • James Roland Harris
                                          Hi Jed, Thanks to you and Marco for your posts. Yes, we ve moved beyond merely loud vs. soft. But I remember that Segovia customarily began his concerts
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                            Hi Jed,


                                            Thanks to you and Marco for your posts.   Yes, we've moved beyond merely loud vs. soft.  But I remember that Segovia customarily began his concerts playing so softly you had to strain to hear him at first. Mirabile dictu -- a little later, everything was clear and audible!  Was he plucking harder, or were our rested ears and brains sharpened by being invited into the initial relative quiet?   What is it "to be heard?"   I always think of the difference between the sackbut caressing my heart and ear, and the trombone that - challenges me to be on my toes for the armageddon on its way..


                                            I remember Bernard Thomas's 1975 EM article on the Renaissance flute, where he says, e.g, "there is a lot to suggest that the preferred sound in the Renaissance was brighter, though not louder, than our modern ears would like. And I don't know that this has to do even with pitch any more than volume.  So much depends on the design? .With both traversi and recorders, I've heard high-pitch instruments sound with as much or greater "somber dignity" than many at lower pitches. 


                                            The Ceili Irish flute player you mention brought to mind ole cranky Sir John Hawkins, who somewhere said of the flute that "it is never pleasant to be close to its mouthpiece."  The recorder of course is in effect an upside-down organ pipe, but it's a mind-teaser to think of the flauto traverso stop on the Baroque organ you mention.


                                            Even within a few decades of the eighteenth century the concept of preferred flute sound seems to have undergone a big change. "Masculine" (auf englisch) may have been Quantz's sound, but as, I think, Ardal's translation mentions, Tromlitz advocated evenness of tone quality throughout the flute's gamut, in contrast, it seems to me, to the striking register differences in many flutes of the previous generation or two, and noted dryly that one of his own students "said that Quantz's high notes weren't very good." (Ouch!)


                                            Notwithstanding the sectional battles and prejudices typical in orchestras and the hearing loss so many fear from being blasted by the flute or trombone next to you, nobody likes to be screeched at. I've heard flute players noted for"blowing very hard" play with heartwarming delicacy, and players noted for a more genteel approach to blowing resonate and resound with bell-like clarity having nothing to do with mere volume throughout a hall.


                                            On top of everything else - May we all be more often blessed with that rarified state of hyper-hearing!.

                                            Yours,
                                                Jim





                                            Philippe Allain-Dupré wrote:
                                            Hi Jed:
                                            A French website for a French exception:
                                            Regards
                                            Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                            Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:34 AM
                                            Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website

                                            I have been following this thread with great interest...what a change
                                            in ideas about flute sound since I was studying traverso in the
                                            1980's (gulp!! so long ago!!)...in 1985, when I was finishing my
                                            studies in the Hague,I remember asking Bart about this passage in
                                            Quantz, because I was amazed to find the good Herr advocating a sound
                                            ideal so very different from what was being taught at the time.
                                            Bart's reply was the "Quantz was German" and that French players
                                            would have played more softly (there was also a subtle implication in
                                            this all that the French had better taste than the Germans, something
                                            which I doubt Bart still feels, I mean it was 20 years ago!). Well, I
                                            set out to see if I could find any evidence of this and I actually
                                            couldn't ...maybe Philippe knows something about this? I don't think
                                            Quantz uses soft French sounds in his argumentation with von
                                            moldonit, for instance...

                                            Anyway, I think people can play softly or loudly or heroically or
                                            birdily depending on their temperament, the repertoire and the size
                                            of the hall...but I find it interesting that traverso players are
                                            more open to a 'masculine' sound ideal than they were 20 years ago...


                                            greetings,

                                            Jed


                                          • wentz047@planet.nl
                                            Thanks Philippe! That hautecontre website looks very interesting, also for my doctoral studies (tragedie lyrique)! I shall read it with relish........... All
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Oct 5, 2005
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                                              Thanks Philippe! That hautecontre website looks very interesting, also for my doctoral studies (tragedie lyrique)! I shall read it with relish...........

                                              All the Best,

                                               

                                              Jed-

                                              PS Boismortier QUINTETS!! FUN! But I want to play bass....

                                              ---- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----

                                              Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@...>

                                              Datum: woensdag, oktober 5, 2005 11:13 pm

                                              Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website

                                              > Hi Jed:
                                              > A French website for a French exception:
                                              > http://www.forumopera.com/opera%20no9/tenor/haute.htm#La%20confusion%20entre%20haute-contre%20et%20contre-tÈnor
                                              > Regards
                                              > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                              >
                                              > From: musicaadrhenum
                                              > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 9:34 AM
                                              > Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I have been following this thread with great interest...what a
                                              > change
                                              > in ideas about flute sound since I was studying traverso in the
                                              > 1980's (gulp!! so long ago!!)...in 1985, when I was finishing my
                                              > studies in the Hague,I remember asking Bart about this passage
                                              > in
                                              > Quantz, because I was amazed to find the good Herr advocating a
                                              > sound
                                              > ideal so very different from what was being taught at the time.
                                              > Bart's reply was the "Quantz was German" and that French players
                                              > would have played more softly (there was also a subtle
                                              > implication in
                                              > this all that the French had better taste than the Germans,
                                              > something
                                              > which I doubt Bart still feels, I mean it was 20 years ago!).
                                              > Well, I
                                              > set out to see if I could find any evidence of this and I
                                              > actually
                                              > couldn't ...maybe Philippe knows something about this? I don't
                                              > think
                                              > Quantz uses soft French sounds in his argumentation with von
                                              > moldonit, for instance...
                                              >
                                              > Anyway, I think people can play softly or loudly or heroically
                                              > or
                                              > birdily depending on their temperament, the repertoire and the
                                              > size
                                              > of the hall...but I find it interesting that traverso players
                                              > are
                                              > more open to a 'masculine' sound ideal than they were 20 years
                                              > ago...
                                              >
                                              > greetings,
                                              >
                                              > Jed
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > lyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-
                                              > dupre@c...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > > Dear Marco
                                              > > Sorry if I was too "picky" with you.
                                              > > This discussion was very interesting for me, since I knew only
                                              > the
                                              > French word of Quantz to describe the flute tone,
                                              > > and I was very astonished of the English and Italian
                                              > translations
                                              > of this word.
                                              > > It seems that Quantz himself had no equivalent in German, and
                                              > nor
                                              > has the Grove to translate Haute-Contre, a very French voice.
                                              > > So keep your contralto on your webpage, bearing in mind that
                                              > the
                                              > Quantz meaning is not the same than now, but a third or fourth
                                              > below : Quantz had certainly in mind the French Haute-Contre
                                              > roles
                                              > of Lully or Rameau opéras when he wrote this.
                                              > > Sincerely yours
                                              > > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                              > > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                              > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                              > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                              > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                              > >
                                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > From: Marco Brolli
                                              > > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:47 PM
                                              > > Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Hi chest voice discussion group.
                                              > >
                                              > > Now I have understood that Quantz had in mind a male voice,
                                              > thanks
                                              > > Ardall: I'll read the dissertation by Oleskiewicz.
                                              > >
                                              > > Dear Philippe,
                                              > > I know that Quantz uses the French word haute-contre. Now,
                                              > can
                                              > you
                                              > > suggest me a better word for Italian and English translation?
                                              > >
                                              > > In any case this is not the matter. Quantz's 'philosophy' of
                                              > sound is
                                              > > very clear by reading more ahead in the text, also in iv, § 17.
                                              > >
                                              > > Yours,
                                              > > Marco
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                              > <allain-
                                              > > dupre@c...> wrote:
                                              > > > Hi Marco
                                              > > > Of course you are not responsible of the mistakes of other
                                              > > translators, but you are not obliged to copy them!
                                              > > > Again, the word used by Quantz is HAUTE-CONTRE, a male voice!
                                              > > > The discussion Ardal is refering to is P128-130 of Mary
                                              > Oleskiewicz
                                              > > dissertation, where she clearly states that the German
                                              > translation of
                                              > > Haute-Contre by Contraalt by Quantz himself is not the
                                              > standard
                                              > word,
                                              > > and this is the origin of the lapse I guess.
                                              > > > Quantz aim for low register was a chest voice, and for the
                                              > upper
                                              > > register a falsetto voice. (Versuch iv, §17)
                                              > > > Regards
                                              > > > Philippe
                                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > > From: Marco Brolli
                                              > > > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:02 PM
                                              > > > Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi Philippe,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > thanks for your underlining of the terms "contralto"
                                              > and "haute-
                                              > > > contre", but I'd like to specify that - first of all -
                                              > the
                                              > > Italian
                                              > > > and English translations of Quantz's quote on my website
                                              > are
                                              > not
                                              > > > mine. I used official translation by Luca Ripanti
                                              > (Italian
                                              > modern
                                              > > > Quantz edition) and by Edward R. Reilly (English modern
                                              > Quantz
                                              > > > edition) you surely know. If you don't agree their
                                              > translations
                                              > > you
                                              > > > have to complain to them directly.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > At last, I think that the meaning of Quantz's citation
                                              > appears
                                              > > > however evident: substained and powerful sound on the flute.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > In the end, are you sure that Quantz intended really a
                                              > male
                                              > > voice? In
                                              > > > his text he's speaking of chest 'human' voice ("die man
                                              > bey
                                              > dem
                                              > > > Menschen die Bruststimme nennet"): he use the term
                                              > "Mensch"
                                              > > = "human
                                              > > > being" and not "Mann" = "man". And also more ahead in
                                              > the
                                              > text he
                                              > > > defines the sound of flute as "männlich", that
                                              > means "masculine,
                                              > > man-
                                              > > > like" and not necessarely "male". In facts, at that age,
                                              > femal
                                              > > > contralto voices also existed - I remember that male
                                              > contraltists
                                              > > and
                                              > > > sopranists are common only in Italy - and the chest
                                              > voice of
                                              > a
                                              > > female
                                              > > > contralto could have the same sounding peculiarities
                                              > that
                                              > Quantz
                                              > > > describes.
                                              > > > Yours,
                                              > > > Marco
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                              > <allain-
                                              > > > dupre@c...> wrote:
                                              > > > > Dear Jed
                                              > > > > Thanks for the compliment,
                                              > > > > I simply try to share my French point of view, and I
                                              > am
                                              > sure
                                              > > that
                                              > > > Quantz was thinking of a French male singer, or a German
                                              > > Evangelist,
                                              > > > when describing the flute tone, rather than Italian
                                              > Castrati
                                              > or
                                              > > > Countertenors in falsetto voice.
                                              > > > > Of course you may be right about Castratti loudnes.
                                              > > > > Yours
                                              > > > > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                              > > > > http://allaindu..club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                              > > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                              > > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                              > > > > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > > > From: wentz047@p...
                                              > > > > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 9:52 AM
                                              > > > > Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Dear Philippe,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > This is a brilliant point (you always have something
                                              > > interesting
                                              > > > to say, you know!), I shall ponder it awhile...but are
                                              > we
                                              > sure
                                              > > that
                                              > > > the voices of the castrati were weak in that register?
                                              > Falsettos
                                              > > > were, at least in the 18th century, never a very popular
                                              > voice
                                              > > type,
                                              > > > as far as I can tell...but the castrati (I
                                              > thought...perhpas
                                              > a
                                              > > > prejudice?) were loved because of their loudness
                                              > (volume) and
                                              > > > flexibility.....
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > hmmm, something to think about....
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > yours,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Jed
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Van: Philippe Allain-Dupré <allain-dupre@c...>
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Datum: maandag, oktober 3, 2005 9:28 am
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Onderwerp: Re: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with
                                              > website
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > > Hi Marco
                                              > > > > > I am sorry but there is a huge lapse on your web
                                              > page :
                                              > > > > > A Contralto is a low female voice, or in Early
                                              > Music a
                                              > > falsetto
                                              > > > or
                                              > > > > > castrato voice.
                                              > > > > > But Quantz in his Essay is describing a chest male
                                              > voice,
                                              > > and
                                              > > > his
                                              > > > > > French text (French was a lot in use at Potsdam)
                                              > is
                                              > HAUTE-
                                              > > > CONTRE,
                                              > > > > > a high tenor voice who sings in natural voice
                                              > (Good
                                              > > examples of
                                              > > > > > this voice are Jean-Paul Fouchécourt or François
                                              > Nicolas
                                              > > > Geslot)
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > The difference of range between the two voices is
                                              > :
                                              > > > > > contralto, g to e'' written in C2
                                              > > > > > Haute-Contre, e to c'', written in C3
                                              > > > > > Quite obviously Quantz refers in his text to the
                                              > second
                                              > > one,
                                              > > > and
                                              > > > > > this becomes obvious when you play a quantz flute
                                              > with
                                              > a
                                              > > large
                                              > > > throat.
                                              > > > > > So to my opinion your translations in English and
                                              > Italian
                                              > > > > > introduce a confusion in the flute sound : a
                                              > castrato
                                              > or
                                              > > > falsetto
                                              > > > > > voice is much weaker than a haute contre in the
                                              > first
                                              > > octave d-
                                              > > > > > c', which actually sounds d' c'' on the flute.
                                              > > > > > What do you or other think?
                                              > > > > > Sincerely
                                              > > > > > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                                              > > > > > http://allaindu.club.fr/sonates/index.html
                                              > > > > > http://perso.club-
                                              > internet.fr/allaindu/discographie/
                                              > > > > > http://perso.club-
                                              > internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance/
                                              > > > > > http://perso.club-
                                              > internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene/
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Brolli"
                                              > > > > > <marco.brolli@t....>
                                              > > > > > wrote:
                                              > > > > > > Hi group, my name is Marco Brolli and I'm an
                                              > Italian
                                              > free-
                                              > >
                                              > > > > > lance
                                              > > > > > > traverso player. If you want to learn more about
                                              > me,
                                              > > please
                                              > > > > > visit
                                              > > > > > my
                                              > > > > > > website www.marcobrolli.com
                                              > > > > > > I'm happy to join earlyflute group and I hope
                                              > we'll
                                              > stay
                                              > > in
                                              > > > > > good
                                              > > > > > and
                                              > > > > > > usefull touch.
                                              > > > > > > Greetings,
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Marco Brolli
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
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                                            • Kim Pineda
                                              Now this is interesting. I clicked on the reply button and all the previous posts (Marco, Philippe, Jed) disappeared from my screen. Presumably one could refer
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Oct 10, 2005
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                                                Now this is interesting. I clicked on the reply button and all the
                                                previous posts (Marco, Philippe, Jed) disappeared from my screen.
                                                Presumably one could refer to the earlier posts.

                                                First, thanks to Marco for bringing up the singing issue in the first
                                                place, and for Phillipe and Jed for discussing it further. It seems
                                                one can't play the flute without some knowledge of singing and
                                                singers and the distinction between alto, haute-contre, counter
                                                tenor, etc., especially if one is hiring singers.

                                                Second, after mentioning doctoral studies, will we soon be referring
                                                to Jed as Dr. Wentz (or do you prefer Dr. J)?

                                                Third, I'm glad I have a buddy out there.

                                                And, finally, I think it is fabulous that traverso players are eager
                                                to play something other than the top voice in an ensemble. I can't
                                                imagine players of other instruments so eager to take the bottom
                                                voice in an ensemble of the same instruments the way traverso players
                                                do with the Boismoriter quintets. I've never heard anything like "I
                                                want to sing the fifth soprano part," or "I want to play the tenth
                                                viola line." Or, more personally, "I got stuck playing first flute on
                                                the Boismortier, again."

                                                Kim
                                              • Mars Taurus
                                                Well, Kim, as everybody thinks I m off my head, I decided I might as well become a Mad Scientist to boot, so it will be Mad Doctor J. to you!! By the way, when
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Oct 11, 2005
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                                                  Well, Kim, as everybody thinks I'm off my head, I decided I might as well become a Mad Scientist to boot, so it will be Mad Doctor J. to you!!

                                                  By the way, when we do our 'dueling bagpipes' number I wanna play bass too.....

                                                   

                                                  Jed


                                                  From: "Kim Pineda" <kimpineda@...>
                                                  Reply-To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                                  To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [earlyflute] Re: new member - with website
                                                  Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 18:43:09 -0000

                                                  Now this is interesting. I clicked on the reply button and all the
                                                  previous posts (Marco, Philippe, Jed) disappeared from my screen.
                                                  Presumably one could refer to the earlier posts.

                                                  First, thanks to Marco for bringing up the singing issue in the first
                                                  place, and for Phillipe and Jed for discussing it further. It seems
                                                  one can't play the flute without some knowledge of singing and
                                                  singers and the distinction between alto, haute-contre, counter
                                                  tenor, etc., especially if one is hiring singers.

                                                  Second, after mentioning doctoral studies, will we soon be referring
                                                  to Jed as Dr. Wentz (or do you prefer Dr. J)?

                                                  Third, I'm glad I have a buddy out there.

                                                  And, finally, I think it is fabulous that traverso players are eager
                                                  to play something other than the top voice in an ensemble. I can't
                                                  imagine players of other instruments so eager to take the bottom
                                                  voice in an ensemble of the same instruments the way traverso players
                                                  do with the Boismoriter quintets. I've never heard anything like "I
                                                  want to sing the fifth soprano part," or "I want to play the tenth
                                                  viola line." Or, more personally, "I got stuck playing first flute on
                                                  the Boismortier, again."

                                                  Kim





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