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Re: [earlyflute] Re: More on Tulou key

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  • Terry McGee
    ... Ah, thanks Gino. Very interesting. The flute looks a lot like a Systeme Perfectionee although it doesn t have the characteristic F# sharpening key. But
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 4, 2005
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      At 06:24 PM 26/04/2005, you wrote:

      --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Terry McGee <terry@m...>
      wrote:
      > At 04:26 AM 26/04/2005, you wrote:
      >
      > >i too found no trace of the mistery key on tulou and nonon
      > >flutes,but i found it on a flute by italian maker giosue'
      > >esposito-napoli  of which i have some photos.i will try to post
      > >one but assure nothing...
      > >ciao,gino
      >
      > Thanks Gino.  I'd be interested in seeing it.
      >

      hello terry,
      i posted a photo in "photos", not in "files",
      gino

      Ah, thanks Gino.  Very interesting.  The flute looks a lot like a Systeme Perfectionee although it doesn't have the characteristic F# sharpening key.  But it does seem to have an extra key about where the mystery key is on the Tulou flute.

      Now another interesting thing I've just noticed about the engraving from Tulou's book is the labelling of the keys.  Coming down the flute we come across the keys and holes in this order:

      Cadence de Re' (up near the barrel where you'd expect to find an E trill key)
      Clef d'Ut# (where you'd expect to find a D trill key)
      Un-named mystery key (where you'd expect to find a C# key)
      Hole 1
      Clefs d'Ut natural (there are two c keys - R1 and L3)
      etc.

      All but the Cadence de Re' are called clefs - would we assume therefore that the D (and the E if I'm right below) is intended as a trill but the others are keys for normal passages?

      Perhaps the engraver got it wrong, the Cadence de Re' should have been marked Cadence de Mi, the Clef d'Ut# should have been marked Cadence de Re', and the mystery unmarked key should have been marked Clef d'Ut#?  It would be what is needed to come up with a very small-holed flute in good tune.  And it's consistent with his approach on sharpening the F# - throw in another sharpening key.  But it still leaves us the question, how did he mean to operate the mystery key?

      Or perhaps another possibility is that the mystery key was needed to provide extra venting to one or both of the trill keys, perhaps to get them to work in both octaves.  But if so then, why slant the key?

      Copies of the engraving in Bate and in Toff's Development book if you want to mull over it.

      Terry

                        Terry McGee

               61 Calder Crescent, Holder ACT 2611 Australia
                Phone +61 (0)2 6288 8006, Fax +61 (0)2 6287 4263       
               mailto: terry@...                   
               http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

                - wooden flutes for Irish and classical music
               - wooden flute research, restorations and repairs
                - maintenance, National Carillon.


      Assisted by the Commonwealth Government through the Australia Council, its arts funding and advisory body, and by the ACT Government through its Cultural Council.

    • Rick Wilson
      ... From: Terry McGee ... I have nothing to add about the mystery key. But I think the engraver got the rest of it OK. The
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 4, 2005
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Terry McGee" <terry@...>
        > Now another interesting thing I've just noticed about the engraving from
        > Tulou's book is the labelling of the keys. Coming down the flute we come
        > across the keys and holes in this order:
        > Cadence de Re' (up near the barrel where you'd expect to find an E trill
        > key)
        > Clef d'Ut# (where you'd expect to find a D trill key)
        > Un-named mystery key (where you'd expect to find a C# key)
        > Hole 1
        > Clefs d'Ut natural (there are two c keys - R1 and L3) etc.

        > All but the Cadence de Re' are called clefs - would we assume therefore
        > that the D (and the E if I'm right below) is intended as a trill but the
        > others are keys for normal passages?

        > Perhaps the engraver got it wrong, the Cadence de Re' should have been
        > marked Cadence de Mi, the Clef d'Ut# should have been marked Cadence de
        > Re', and the mystery unmarked key should have been marked Clef d'Ut#?
        > .....

        I have nothing to add about the mystery key. But I think the
        engraver got the rest of it OK. The "Cadence de Re'" is a normal
        e'''/d''' trill key. The Clef d'Ut# produces (on my flute perfectionee)
        a c'''# when opened while finger 1 is down (just as the C keys produce
        C natural when finger 1 is down). To be precise, the Clef d'Ut# was
        designed to be used simultaneously with the Clef d'Ut in almost all
        cases, so both must be opened to get a well-in-tune c'''#, but the
        touches are put very close together so that RH1 can do this easily.

        Anyway, the Clef d'Ut# makes a very good and easy c'''#/b''
        trill (just as the ordinary C key makes a good and easy C/B trill).
        There was a need for such a key. The c'''#/b'' trill at the top
        of the second octave is bad (too narrow) with finger 1 on
        baroque and simple system flutes.

        The Clef d'Ut# gives too sharp a note in the
        first octave to be used for the c''#/b' trill, but here the trill
        with finger 1 is fine. But the key has a number of other uses,
        e.g. it is used for a d''/c'' trill, where here it gives the d''.

        --Rick Wilson
        rick@...
      • mirandolarambored
        ... post ... Systeme ... sharpening ... mystery key is ... engraving from ... flute we come ... an E trill key) ... therefore ... the ... have been ... marked
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 5, 2005
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          --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Terry McGee <terry@m...>
          wrote:
          > At 06:24 PM 26/04/2005, you wrote:
          >
          > >--- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Terry McGee <terry@m...>
          > >wrote:
          > > > At 04:26 AM 26/04/2005, you wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >i too found no trace of the mistery key on tulou and nonon
          > > > >flutes,but i found it on a flute by italian maker giosue'
          > > > >esposito-napoli of which i have some photos.i will try to
          post
          > > > >one but assure nothing...
          > > > >ciao,gino
          > > >
          > > > Thanks Gino. I'd be interested in seeing it.
          > > >
          > >
          > >hello terry,
          > >i posted a photo in "photos", not in "files",
          > >gino
          >
          > Ah, thanks Gino. Very interesting. The flute looks a lot like a
          Systeme
          > Perfectionee although it doesn't have the characteristic F#
          sharpening
          > key. But it does seem to have an extra key about where the
          mystery key is
          > on the Tulou flute.
          >
          > Now another interesting thing I've just noticed about the
          engraving from
          > Tulou's book is the labelling of the keys. Coming down the
          flute we come
          > across the keys and holes in this order:
          >
          > Cadence de Re' (up near the barrel where you'd expect to find
          an E trill key)
          > Clef d'Ut# (where you'd expect to find a D trill key)
          > Un-named mystery key (where you'd expect to find a C# key)
          > Hole 1
          > Clefs d'Ut natural (there are two c keys - R1 and L3)
          > etc.
          >
          > All but the Cadence de Re' are called clefs - would we assume
          therefore
          > that the D (and the E if I'm right below) is intended as a trill but
          the
          > others are keys for normal passages?
          >
          > Perhaps the engraver got it wrong, the Cadence de Re' should
          have been
          > marked Cadence de Mi, the Clef d'Ut# should have been
          marked Cadence de
          > Re', and the mystery unmarked key should have been marked
          Clef d'Ut#? It
          > would be what is needed to come up with a very small-holed
          flute in good
          > tune. And it's consistent with his approach on sharpening the
          F# - throw
          > in another sharpening key. But it still leaves us the question,
          how did he
          > mean to operate the mystery key?
          >
          > Or perhaps another possibility is that the mystery key was
          needed to
          > provide extra venting to one or both of the trill keys, perhaps to
          get them
          > to work in both octaves. But if so then, why slant the key?
          >
          > Copies of the engraving in Bate and in Toff's Development
          book if you want
          > to mull over it.
          >
          > Terry
          >
          >
          > Terry McGee
          >
          > 61 Calder Crescent, Holder ACT 2611 Australia
          > Phone +61 (0)2 6288 8006, Fax +61 (0)2 6287 4263
          > mailto: terry@m...
          > http://www.mcgee-flutes.com
          >
          > - wooden flutes for Irish and classical music
          > - wooden flute research, restorations and repairs
          > - maintenance, National Carillon.
          >
          > ----------
          > Assisted by the Commonwealth Government through the
          Australia Council, its
          > arts funding and advisory body, and by the ACT Government
          through its
          > Cultural Council.

          hello terry and rick,
          i tried again all these trills and some passages as tulou
          explains on the method on a nonon perfectionne' and on the
          esposito.
          i found the keys have the same functions,only on the esposito
          the sound is more clear strong and equal,making these little
          keys even better for passages.
          on the nonon the d''' e''' trill is a little flat and it sound better
          toghether with c°''' key.
          what about the g''' a''' trill?some solutions?
          and,where you put your left thumb playing these simple system
          flutes?
          thanks to you all,
          gino maini
        • Terry McGee
          ... Very interesting Gino. I m at a disadvantage because my Flute Perfectione is not playable yet (it is currently une flute tres imperfectionee!), but I look
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 5, 2005
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            At 07:07 PM 5/06/2005, gino wrote:
            hello terry and rick,
            i tried again all these trills and some passages as tulou
            explains on the method on a nonon perfectionne' and on the
            esposito.
            i found the keys have the same functions,only on the esposito
            the sound is more clear strong and equal,making these little
            keys even better for passages.
            on the nonon the d''' e''' trill  is a little flat and it sound better
            toghether with c°''' key.
            what about the g''' a''' trill?some solutions?

            Very interesting Gino.  I'm at a disadvantage because my Flute Perfectione is not playable yet (it is currently une flute tres imperfectionee!), but I look forward to trying out those keys.

            and,where you put your left thumb playing these simple system
            flutes?

            Just a little closer to the mouth than the touch of the Bb key.  The thumb normally rests on the wood but should not be vital to the support of the flute as it will have to come off to press Bb. 

            thanks to you all,
            gino maini




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                              Terry McGee

                     61 Calder Crescent, Holder ACT 2611 Australia
                      Phone +61 (0)2 6288 8006, Fax +61 (0)2 6287 4263       
                     mailto: terry@...                   
                     http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

                      - wooden flutes for Irish and classical music
                     - wooden flute research, restorations and repairs
                      - maintenance, National Carillon.


            Assisted by the Commonwealth Government through the Australia Council, its arts funding and advisory body, and by the ACT Government through its Cultural Council.

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