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Re: Andreas Besteck's 1650 traverso?

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  • wwgtsc
    Hi, Boaz, Phillipe has expressed concerns that an instrument from 1650 would have these features: Ebony, ivory rings, brass ferrule. Do you, or anyone else on
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 1, 2005
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      Hi, Boaz,

      Phillipe has expressed concerns that an instrument from 1650 would have these features:
      Ebony, ivory rings, brass ferrule. Do you, or anyone else on the list, have an opinion on
      whether these features could have been present on an instrument from 1650?

      Also, when you say you have heard of the flute, have you heard of it anywhere else besides
      Mr. Besteck's website? I can't seem to find any other mention of the flute online, but I
      would be curious to see if other makers or historians saw the flute before it vanished. By
      asking this, I certainly don't mean to imply any doubt of Mr. Besteck's honesty regarding
      this flute ... I'm just extremely curious about the instrument!

      Best Regards,
      Liam

      --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, "Boaz Berney" <boaz@b...> wrote:
      > Hi again,
      >
      > I have heard about this instrument before, but unfortunately was never able to see it or
      try the copy. ... All I know is that the original was indeed made in Blackwood in two parts,
      and that the its pitch was high - maybe even as high as 460.
    • Boaz Berney
      Hi Liam, ... I think all of those features could have been found on an instrument from that time - or even earlier. The Inventory of Henry VIII (1547)
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 1, 2005
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        Hi Liam,
         
        > Phillipe has expressed concerns that an instrument from 1650 would have these features:
        > Ebony, ivory rings,
        brass ferrule.  Do you, or anyone else on the list,  have an opinion on
        > whether these features could have been present on an instrument from
        1650?
        I think all of those features could have been found on an instrument from that time - or even earlier.  The Inventory of Henry VIII (1547) mentiones instruments in ebony with silver decorations and ivory ones with gold bands,  so the materials were in use in flute-making as early as that time, although were probably not very common.  As for the division in two - those are found on surviving 16th century bass flutes, and on one tenor, the Rafi flute in Bologna.  If our dating of the Rafi instruments is correct  (as so far we know instruments stamped C.Rafi were made by Claude Rafi, between 1515 and 1553), then we have an earlier example of such division. Praetorius reccomends making recorders in two parts in his third volume of the Syntagma Musicum (1619) so that the instruments can be in tune with the organ in summer as well as in winter. 
         
        As for the missing instruments dating - we cannot be sure that it is 1650, i think that is just a general indication given by Mr. Besteck.  For me the best hint for dating the instrument is its high pitch (452 according to Mr. Besteck's web site).  In my opinion, flutes at that pitch were in use and demand only when the practice of combining different instruments together or instruments and voices came into fashion- probably in the last quarter of the 16th century.  It was only then that one would have needeed flutes which were at the same pitch as organs or other woodwinds.  I would say that the missing flute's dating can be as early as 1570 and as late as 1680.
         
        > Also, when you say you have heard of the flute, have you heard of it anywhere else besides
        > Mr. Besteck's
        website?  I can't seem to find any other mention of the flute online, but I
        > would be curious to see if other makers or historians saw the flute
        before it vanished.  By
        > asking this, I certainly don't mean to
        imply any doubt of Mr. Besteck's honesty regarding
        > this flute ... I'm
        just extremely curious about the instrument!
         
        i have heard about this instrument from an other  player about two years ago, but whole matter was hushed, because at some point there was talk about the owner making the existance of the instrument official in some way.  As far as i know there is very little chance that this would indeed happen - but perhaps it would be best if you contacted Mr. Besteck and ask him for more details about the instrument.
         
        Greetings,
         
        Boaz

        Boaz Berney - Historical flutes
        http://www.berneyflutes.com
         
        P.O.B 41140,  Jaffa,  61411 Israel
        Tel: +972-(0)3-6811233      

      • wwgtsc
        Dear Boaz, Thanks very muc h for the reply. I have tried to contact him via the email form on his webpage, but it keeps failing. Do you or anyone on the list
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 1, 2005
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          Dear Boaz,

          Thanks very muc h for the reply. I have tried to contact him via the email form on his
          webpage, but it keeps failing. Do you or anyone on the list have current contact
          information for him, and do you know if he speaks English? Unfortunately, I cannot
          contact him in his native language, due to my lack of knowledge!

          Best Regards,
          Liam

          > but perhaps it would be best if you contacted Mr. Besteck and ask him for more details
          about the instrument.
        • James Roland Harris
          Hi Liam, In case you may not have done so already, try Googling on Baroque Flute Makers, where there is a direct email link for Andreas Besteck. Also,
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 1, 2005
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            Hi Liam,

            In case you may not have done so already, try Googling on "Baroque Flute
            Makers," where there is a direct email link for Andreas Besteck. Also,
            perhaps Nancy Hadden has information.

            Yours,
            Jim



            wwgtsc wrote:

            >Dear Boaz,
            >
            >Thanks very muc h for the reply. I have tried to contact him via the email form
            >on his
            >webpage, but it keeps failing. Do you or anyone on the list have current contact
            >information for him, and do you know if he speaks English? Unfortunately, I
            >cannot
            >contact him in his native language, due to my lack of knowledge!
            >
            >Best Regards,
            >Liam
            >
            > > but perhaps it would be best if you contacted Mr. Besteck and ask him for
            >more details
            >about the instrument.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • wwgtsc
            Hi, Rod, and everyone else, ... Out of curiosity, do any of you think this is what the Von Huene 17th century flute is about? I ve always been curious: their
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 1, 2005
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              Hi, Rod, and everyone else,

              > Next question... did makers experiment with
              > conical bores before any thought was given to the benefits of adding an
              > e flay key? By making a transitional simple flute with a conical bore
              > and cylindrical head one can ease the finger stretch and at the same
              > time get a overblown A octave plus quite a good f natural and f sharp.
              > Just take a 392 traverso, turn the key away out of reach and you will
              > be able to play quite nicely on it

              Out of curiosity, do any of you think this is what the Von Huene 17th century flute is
              about? I've always been curious: their website says that it's "after originals in Den Haag
              and Prague" ... does this mean that there are extantearly 17th century keyless conical
              flutes around??

              Thanks,
              Liam
            • rod cameron
              Dear Liam, If you are referring to Friedrich s boxwood renaissance looking flute, he would be the first to acknowledge that it is an internally tapered bore
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 2, 2005
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                Dear Liam,

                If you are referring to Friedrich's boxwood "renaissance looking"
                flute, he would be the first to acknowledge that it is an internally
                tapered bore instrument with good, but not renaissance, intonation With
                a smile on his face he told me it was modeled after an original 'that
                had not yet been discovered'. This was all done years ago and before
                the scholarly work by Philippe, Filadelfio Puglisi and others. I agree
                with Philippe, that Friedrich has been active in his field years before
                many of us. Since I first became friends with him in the 1970's, I have
                found him to be one of the most generous workers in the field, always
                taking time to assist with sharing data, experience, and a very good
                listener. Often he has been almost overwhelmed in answering requests
                from others in the field. May I take a moment here to thank him and his
                sons for contributions, past and present, in forwarding our collective
                craft.

                Rod

                On Feb 1, 2005, at 11:23 PM, wwgtsc wrote:

                >
                >
                > Hi, Rod, and everyone else,
                >
                >> Next question... did makers experiment with
                >> conical bores before any thought was given to the benefits of adding
                >> an
                >> e flay key? By making a transitional simple flute with a conical bore
                >> and cylindrical head one can ease the finger stretch and at the same
                >> time get a overblown A octave plus quite a good f natural and f sharp.
                >> Just take a 392 traverso, turn the key away out of reach and you will
                >> be able to play quite nicely on it
                >
                > Out of curiosity, do any of you think this is what the Von Huene 17th
                > century flute is
                > about? I've always been curious: their website says that it's "after
                > originals in Den Haag
                > and Prague" ... does this mean that there are extantearly 17th
                > century keyless conical
                > flutes around??
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Liam
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                Roderick Cameron
                PO Box 438
                640 School Street
                Mendocino, CA 95460, USA
                Tel: 707 937 0412
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